1 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: March twenty five, a woman notices a barefoot figure lying 2 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: on a neighbor's lawn. Just a few doors down. That 3 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:23,959 Speaker 1: figure a beautiful young woman, Eve Wilkowitz, last seen boarding 4 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: a late night train home from work. To this day, 5 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: the mystery surrounding Eve Wilkowitz goes on, I'm Nancy Grace. 6 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: This is crime Stories, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. She 7 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: was very sweet. She loved Twyses, twicses with her passion. 8 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: She loved to Eve was the older one, and the 9 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: two sisters were living in Oakdale when they endured the 10 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: loss of their mother to breast cancer. Eve later wanted 11 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 1: some independence and moved out to live with a boyfriend 12 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: in Bay Shore. She was afraid of him. She felt 13 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: something wasn't right. But Eve had started to find a 14 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: life in Manhattan with a promising job at McMillan Publishing. 15 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: A young writer there took an interest in Eve, and 16 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: he was the one who dropped her at Penn Station 17 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: for the last train to Bay Shore on that Friday 18 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,320 Speaker 1: night in March. The other thing, I know she got 19 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: on a train from Penn Station. You know she was 20 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: on the train. Eve Wilkewitz made a final trip on 21 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 1: the Long Island Railroad to Bay Shore. The ride to 22 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: our south Shore town should have taken less than ninety minutes. 23 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 1: You are hearing our friends at pix eleven in New York, 24 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: Mary Murphy, Eve Wilkewitz. All you have to do is 25 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: Google to pull up her gorgeous photo. I'm Meancy Grace. 26 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us, 27 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: with me an all star panels starting a newsday journalist 28 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: Tony DeStefano, Cheryl Appoint genetic genealogist, the gene hunter John Cardillo, 29 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:12,799 Speaker 1: host America Talks on Newsmax TV, former NYPD and renowned 30 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: former chief medical Examiner, doctor Chris Sperry. But joining me 31 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: right now and first is not only a colleague, but 32 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 1: a very dear friend, the father of slain jogger Corina Vatrono, 33 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 1: Phil Vatranto. Her father was dragged out of Corrina's general 34 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: in order to give d NA to help catch her killer. 35 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: And he did it happily. He did it happily, And 36 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: that is an example of a crime victim, a loving 37 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: parent trying to find whoever killed his daughter. But now 38 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: the fight is on to familial DNA, a reality in 39 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: every jurisdiction, fill the Toronto. Why is this so important 40 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: to you? Why is twenty year old even Wiltro it's 41 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: so important to you? Well, I think this is all 42 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: I have left to do, you know, like sort of 43 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:23,799 Speaker 1: like John Walsh when Adam was killed. I tried to 44 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: continue my life the way it was, but I just couldn't. 45 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: And I had heard this story. I got a little 46 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: email from Rob Harmon out in California and he said 47 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: it would be a good idea for SS testing, and 48 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: I decided that this is what's going to happen. We're 49 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: gonna get this tested, and we're going to try to 50 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: find to help, you know, find who killed Irene. Insist 51 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: to Eve because it's forty forty years and that's a 52 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: long time without any answers. And now that wound never healed. 53 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: Oh my stars, Phil oh oh, how awful? I mean? 54 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: You know, my fiancee was murdered, his killer was caught 55 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: and prosecuted. You suffered both ways, for the many many 56 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: months you did not know who Karina's a murderer was, 57 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: and then the fight to get him convicted. Joining me 58 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: right now, Newsday journalist Tony di stefan O'tony Let's start 59 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: at the beginning with Eve Wilkowis. Who is she? Tell 60 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: me about her? Evean Wilkowits was a twenty year old 61 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 1: woman originally from Long Island, and she was working in 62 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: New York City at a publishing house. This is in 63 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty. I were talking March of nineteen eighty when 64 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: this all transpired. But she was living, you know, working 65 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:56,479 Speaker 1: in Manhattan, living back on Long Island, the town of 66 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: Bay Shore and doing a commuting life. You had a 67 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: boy friend in the city, and she was living in Bayshore, 68 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: and you know, she was a young girl starting off 69 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: in the secretarial career, Tony. Isn't it true that the 70 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: snoots in Manhattan call anybody living outside the city of 71 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: Manhattan they call them b and T's bridge and tunnels 72 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: because you got to take a bridge or a tunnel 73 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: to get in, and the rents are so high in 74 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 1: Manhattan nobody can afford to live there, so they live 75 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: outside and the surrounding boroughs like she did, and would 76 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: take a bridge or a tunnel train to get in. 77 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: So here she is living the dream. And when I 78 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: look at her, you're gonna laugh. Phil. I think about 79 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: that girl, do you remember that show. I was just 80 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: a little little girl and I remember it being on 81 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: the TV and it was with Marlo Thomas. And she 82 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: moved to the big city to get a job and 83 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: make her way in the world. And this reminds me 84 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: so much of her in so many ways. But go ahead, 85 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: go ahead with the story. Says she's got her place 86 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: in Bay Shore, she commutes in every day to work. Yeah, 87 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: she's you know, she's living in back in Bay Shore. 88 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: She's actually living with an old boyfriend in a rather 89 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: platonic situation. They were they remained friends, and they shared 90 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: an apartment together, and she was, you know, in the 91 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: beginning of her career wherever it was going to be. 92 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 1: And she took the train home that Friday night, and 93 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: the boyfriend, the current boyfriend at the time, put her 94 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: on the train, star off and that was it. She 95 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: got on the train. People know she was on the train. 96 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: She got off the right Let me just stop you 97 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 1: right there, Tony to Stephanoe Newsday journalists. Are we sure 98 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: she got on the train? Was she observed by anybody 99 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: other than her boyfriend? Yes? The conductor's okay, the train conductor, 100 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:02,799 Speaker 1: and they had her, they knew she was on. They 101 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: we remembered and recalled her being present on the train. 102 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:08,679 Speaker 1: You know, as a matter of fact, take a listen 103 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: to our friends at pix eleven. This is Mary Murphy. 104 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: Three days after Eve Wokewitz failed to come home from Manhattan, 105 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: her body was discovered here at the Bay Shore, a 106 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: Long Island railroad station, her original destination. As she was strangled, 107 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: I know her hands would tie the rope burns, I'm 108 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: pretty sure around her hands the whole. The police told 109 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: Eve's family she'd been held alive for three days before 110 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: she was killed. Whoever they could find. They interviewed the 111 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: boyfriend she was living with. Did the police tell you 112 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: they ruled him out? Yeah? I believe so. The murder 113 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: was long before the evolution of DNA testing and in 114 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: the years that followed. Irene Brassner didn't talk much about 115 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: the case to her daughter Dara and son Evan. My 116 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: mother explain to me and that I was named after her. 117 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: You it was definitely an honor to be named after her. 118 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: You're hearing our friend Mary Murphy, along with Irene Welkwitz 119 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: Bossner and brother Evan Brosner. To doctor Chris Sperry, renowned 120 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: former Chief Medical Examiner, doctor Sperry. How would the medical 121 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: examiner know that she was held alive for three days 122 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: before she was murdered. I think the medical examiner would 123 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: be able to give an estimation like that based upon 124 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: probably the absence of decomposition, the absence of changes that 125 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: would be present if she had been dead all that 126 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: period of time. If her body would appear to be 127 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 1: very fresh, and there was no decomposition, bloating, or gas accumulations, 128 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: the things that occur after death were the passage of time, 129 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: then I mean that's a very reasonable conclusion. Okay, doctor 130 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: Chris Sperry, it just break it down for me, just 131 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: for a moment. And I'm going into this in depth 132 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,319 Speaker 1: because it matters. And I'm also doing this because I 133 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: don't have her family member on because this would certainly 134 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: cause them a lot of sorrow and agitation. But doctor 135 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: Chris Berry, explain to me how you can tell a 136 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: body is, as you say, fresh. I've never really heard 137 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: get referred that way, but okay, go ahead, doctor Sperry, 138 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: you're the m I'm just a JD. Tell me the 139 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 1: ways you can look at a dead body and almost 140 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: almost automatically, no, it is fresh as opposed to having 141 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: been lying out in the elements for three days. Well, 142 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: the first thing would be evaluation of the rigor mortis, 143 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: or the stiffness in the muscles and joints, that develops 144 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: after death. And this will begin at room temperatures, usually 145 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: about twenty to thirty minutes after someone dies, but then 146 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,719 Speaker 1: progress and by twelve hours the body will be very 147 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: very stiff, and over the next baby twelve twenty four hours, 148 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: all that begins to pass, so that the stiffness is lost. 149 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: And so in evaluating a body that has been found 150 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: outside like this, the degree if any, of stiffness the joints, 151 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,559 Speaker 1: the presence of rigor mortis, or the absence of it, 152 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: that is to indicate that it is passing, gives at 153 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: least a broad estimation of perhaps how long the body 154 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: has been out. And one thing you said, which is 155 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: very important, that is, if a deceased body is put 156 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: out in the elements, then lots of other things start 157 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: to happen. Insects will find the body and lay eggs. 158 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: And because this is just this is part of nature. 159 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: This is how the natural world takes care of any 160 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: dead organism by other bugs of the creatures really make 161 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: food out of it then breed. And if finding a 162 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 1: body outside, and say, for instance, if the person has 163 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: been missing for three days but yet there's no evidence 164 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: of any fly larvae on the body, any maggots, anything 165 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: that indicates insect activity, then that means the body has 166 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: been somewhere else and probably the person very likely could 167 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: have been alive if there's no other changes like decomposition, bloating, 168 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: gas accumulation, slippage of the skin, all of the things 169 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: that occur again with the passage of time. So if 170 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 1: someone if the body is found and there's no evidence 171 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: of any insect or animal predation, no maggots, there's no swelling, 172 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: no bloating. All of these different factors work together to 173 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: really give the ability to say that the person not 174 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: only hasn't been outside for three or four days, but 175 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: also when time stories with Nancy Grace, I would hear 176 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: of music through the walls all the time, the Beatles, 177 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: Elton John and Billy Joel. To this day, when Irene 178 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 1: bros senor of East Meadow, here's a Billy Joel song 179 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 1: or a Beatles classic, she's flooded with emotions. Growing up 180 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: in Oakdale, Irene and her older sister Eve were close. 181 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: They remained that way until March twenty fifth, nineteen eighty. 182 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: That's when twenty year old Eve Wilkowitz's lifeless body was 183 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: found just blocks away from the Bay Shore train station. 184 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: After thirty six years, her death still remains an unsolved mystery, 185 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: even though she expressed concern to her family just a 186 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: week before she was murdered. She's saying that I think 187 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: someone's been following. Eve commuted to and from Manhattan, where 188 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: she worked as a secretary for a publishing house. At night, 189 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 1: she routinely made the ten minute walk from the station 190 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: to her Bay Shore apartment. Suffolk Police believe she was 191 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: abducted while walking home. Detectives interviewed multiple suspects, but never 192 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: made an arrest. Published reports at the time suggested that 193 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: Eve was most likely held captive for three days and 194 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: sexually abused. You're hearing our friends at News twelve Long Island. 195 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: That was Rich Babbie speaking on her way home from work. 196 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: She was a commuter, gets off the train and is 197 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: never seen alive again. Days later, her body is found. 198 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,839 Speaker 1: Now we are learning right now that it's believed her 199 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: hands had been tied based on burnmarks on her hands 200 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: and that she had been sex abused. What really happened 201 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 1: to twenty year old Eve? Can you imagine the torture 202 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: of being held alive for days on end only to 203 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,959 Speaker 1: be murdered, your body discarded. I'm Nancy Grace. This is 204 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: crime stories. Thank you for being with us. To John Cardillo, 205 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: former NYPD host America talks on Newsmax, John, again, thank 206 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: you for being with us. That sounds like a well 207 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: thought out plan for some or would it be a 208 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: crime of opportunity, someone possibly seeing her on the train 209 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: and suddenly deciding to attack her. But there is one 210 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: clue that suggests this was long planned. Listen, I just 211 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: figured any day now, you know, we'll hear closure, and 212 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: you know, any days now, very six years later and 213 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: still and my dad never saw closure, and you know, 214 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: he died in two thousand and ten, so he never 215 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: guide answers. It's that's one of the things that makes 216 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: me most sad. You know so well. I know she 217 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: was out with her friend than the city. She was 218 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: working to McMillan Publishing in Manhattan, and she was having 219 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: dinner with her friend and she was going to go 220 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: on the train to come home and never made it home. 221 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: I don't know if my dad heard it, but I 222 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: know I did, and I don't think I'm making enough. 223 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: All these years, I still kind of remember saying, I 224 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: think someone's been following me. I think that was one 225 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: of the last times I saw her. Is that last 226 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: conversation saying that I think someone's been following me? Okay, 227 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: that's not enough to just send chills down your spine. 228 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: I don't know what is to think someone's following you. 229 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: That's our friend at Newsday speaking along with sister Irene. 230 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: Back to you, John Cardillo, the fact that you believe 231 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: someone is following you? Is that real? Or is that 232 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: just the stuff that novels are made up? No, I 233 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: absolutely think the family their gut instinct than yours. Nancy's 234 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: in the right place for your our listeners. Viewers that 235 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: don't live in the New York area aren't familiar. That's 236 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: a crowded dream. The Long Island Railroad line from Manhattan 237 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: and Bay Shore is incredibly crowded. More importantly, a lot 238 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: of police officers, a lot of firefighters live out there. 239 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: They're on that train. So first instinct, thirty thousand foot view, 240 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: I agree, I think this was pre planned. You certainly 241 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: wouldn't commit the abduction on the train. It sounds like 242 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: she was a rush hour commuter, but that particular line, 243 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: those train cars are pretty crowded even eight thirty nine o'clock, 244 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: ten o'clock at night. People have afterward dinners in the city, 245 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. So my initial instinct says she 246 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: was followed off the train and abducted somewhere in a 247 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: dark part of the Bay Shore station, or maybe walking 248 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: to a vehicle, walking to a cab stand, something like that. 249 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: And that's somebody certainly who tracked her, who followed her, 250 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: who planned this out, who knew her movements, who knew 251 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: her schedule. It's unlikely that on that crowded Long Island 252 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: Railroad line the abduction would have happened on the train, 253 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: So I think the family's instincts are dead on point 254 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: to Tony to Stephano used a journalist, Tony, she actually 255 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,719 Speaker 1: told family members and maybe others she felt someone had 256 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 1: been following her. But did she ever give a description 257 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: or who she thought was following her? Well, she may 258 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: have given enough of a description, because the police subsequent, 259 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: many years subsequent, told me that there was a person 260 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: that they focused on who the belief was following her, 261 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: and they cleared that person from involvement, you know, through 262 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: DNA testing. So I think she did relate enough of 263 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: that to allow law enforcement to focus in on somebody eventually. 264 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: But that person turned out to be non culpable, as 265 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: it were, So you know, this was not a pigment 266 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 1: of her imagination. I don't believe, Okay, So that was 267 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 1: not made up. She actually gave a description and told 268 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 1: several people she felt she was being followed. I'm just learning. 269 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: She worked at macmillan Publishers, which is a huge book 270 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 1: publishing company headquarters in Manhattan. They have very prominent imprints, 271 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: sell books all around the world, award winning books for 272 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 1: children and adults in every category. I remember growing up 273 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: some of our textbooks or books that we had at 274 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: school were McMillan. That opens up a whole plethora of 275 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:34,400 Speaker 1: potential suspects. If she worked in a skyscraper in downtown Manhattan, 276 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,199 Speaker 1: was going in and out at lunch for coffee breaks, 277 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: who could have seen her or who could have been 278 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: watching her on her train. Now this is someone we 279 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 1: believe was following her, and that makes a big difference. 280 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: Joining me the dad of jogger Carina Vetrono. Feel Vatrono 281 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: is with us, you know, feel there's a big difference 282 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: between someone that's been stalking you and someone that just 283 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: happened upon you at that moment, and it's a crime 284 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: of opportunity, feel the Toronto. Yeah. And I'm not sure 285 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: that Karee's killer just happened to be there. I'm not sure. 286 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 1: We're never gonna know. We're never gonna know for sure, 287 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: but I kind of believe he was looking for her, 288 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:27,880 Speaker 1: and because just to be at that exact place at 289 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: that exact time, hidden so well. And I think he 290 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,360 Speaker 1: was there the week prior when I was on vacation. 291 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 1: But you know, questions like that are never going to 292 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 1: be answered. Time stories with Nancy Grace so well, I 293 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 1: know she was out with her friend in the city. 294 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 1: She was working McMillan Publishing in Manhattan, and she was 295 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: having dinner with her friend and she was going to 296 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: go on the train to come home and never made 297 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: it home. I don't know if my dad heard it, 298 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: but I know I did, and I don't think I'm 299 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: making enough all these years, I still kind of remember 300 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: saying I think someone's been following me. I think that 301 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: was one of the last times I saw her. Is 302 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: that last conversation saying that I think someone's been following me. 303 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: You are hearing the sister Irene Wilkewitz, Brass and her 304 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 1: speaking on a newsday interview. John Cardillo hosts America Talks 305 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: on Newsmax TV former NYPD. I always say there's no 306 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,360 Speaker 1: coincidence in criminal law, and I find it very difficult 307 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: to believe that this young girl, Eve Wilkewitz, just twenty 308 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,719 Speaker 1: years old, believe somebody's following her. She tells family members 309 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: and maybe others about it, then she ends up dead, 310 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: having been kept alive for three days. I don't think 311 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 1: that's a coincidence. John Cardillo, No, I don't at all. 312 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: But unfortunately the police can't act on a mere gut feeling, right. 313 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: That's the scary part of this. Even if she had 314 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: said to her family, I think I'm being followed. There's 315 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: a guy with brown hair and blue eyes. Well if 316 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: they interview that guy, even if he turned out to 317 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: be the purp and he says, well, yeah, I get 318 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: off the same train she does every day. I take 319 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,640 Speaker 1: it from Manhattan like she doesn't we walk the same 320 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 1: direction to our vehicles. There's nothing the police can do, 321 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: so even if that person subsequently turns out to be 322 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: the bad guy, it doesn't. It's not an indictment of 323 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: the police or of her family not taking action. There 324 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: was really no crime to report other than a gut 325 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 1: suspicion prior to her abduction and subsequent murder. Eve Wilc 326 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 1: who it is, twenty years old, working at a publishing 327 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: house when her body was found near the Bay Shore 328 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: train station. I'm learning it was about a ten minute 329 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: walk from the station to where she lived in her 330 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 1: apartment with her friend. To Tony to Stephano newsday journalist, 331 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 1: what else can you tell me about Eve's body? What 332 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: was discovered? Well, she was discovered by a housewife looking 333 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: out the window. She was making coffee and saw, you know, 334 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: the body on the on the ground. Uh. She uh. 335 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: You know, there had been signs uh. It was clear 336 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 1: that she had been raped. That came out subsequent. Family 337 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: didn't know this until very recently, but the police obviously 338 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 1: did no uh. And there was evidence of u uh 339 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: that she had been bound and uh. And there was 340 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 1: asphyxia evidence since she was strangled uh, and there she was. 341 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 1: She was, you know, dropped off like a like a 342 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: sacapotatus on the side of the road. Pretty chilling the 343 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 1: fact that she was raped. Cheryl a point joining a 344 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: genetic genealogist, the Jane Hunter. Obviously they have not been 345 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 1: able to match up DNA found in and on her 346 00:22:54,720 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: body to the killer. Explain to me what is familial DNA, So, Nancy, 347 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 1: Familial DNA is actually a process that's used to run 348 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: through the CODA system looking for a familial match to 349 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 1: the DNA that they have. We can an exact match 350 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: would find the perpetrator. But many states now allow familial DNA, 351 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: and that allows you to run that DNA through the 352 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:33,640 Speaker 1: CODAS system, which has the DNA of criminals and convicted felons, 353 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: and you can look for a family member, a parent, 354 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: a child, or a sibling which show up with familial DNA, 355 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: and lots of times that leads police to an area 356 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: where they can actually find who the criminal is. To 357 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: Tony to Stephano, Newsday journalist, tell me about what you 358 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 1: know regarding DNA found on or in Eve's body. Well, 359 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 1: it was enough. I think it was robust enough for 360 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,719 Speaker 1: them to take to take the sample, run it through codis. 361 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: Of course they got no hits on that, Compare it 362 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: with possible suspects such as boyfriend's ex boyfriends and the 363 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,360 Speaker 1: other people, and come up with no hits. As it were. 364 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,120 Speaker 1: As it was just, uh, you know, it was explained 365 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 1: to us that, you know, the sample was good enough 366 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 1: for that and what they have in terms of the 367 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 1: profile of the unknown mail they are now going to 368 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: try to take and run it through the genealogical searching 369 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,239 Speaker 1: and also through familial searching, so there's enough there for 370 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: them to do the searching. Uh, And it was a 371 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: good enough sample. Sometimes the samples enough very good and 372 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: they can't do familial searching or any other kind of searching. 373 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: New York State sometimes rejected I think probably about a 374 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: dozen or so samples they got from law enforcement over 375 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 1: the years recently because the samples it's not good, you know, 376 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: enough to compare well, this is what I know. New 377 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 1: DNA methods could crack this case, but New York won't 378 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: allow it. With the Golden State killer case was cracked 379 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: wide open based on familial DNA, the remaining relatives of 380 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: Eve Wilkerwitz thought it would crack their case. Wide open 381 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: as well. I don't understand why why it's not being 382 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 1: allowed to feel of a Toronto who is championing and 383 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,239 Speaker 1: campaigning for the use of familial DNA, why are they 384 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: not allowing it and Eve Wilkowitz's case. Phil, That's a 385 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,439 Speaker 1: very good question, Nancy, And you know it's been it's 386 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: going to be three years on February and February tenth 387 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 1: that New York State passed the law. Three years and 388 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: there hasn't been a single case where we have style 389 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 1: of the crime. And it also makes me wonder are 390 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 1: they actually running the tests? I don't even know. You know, 391 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: that's a question. Why aren't they using it all? Why 392 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: haven't they found anybody? I don't know, you know, it's 393 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: very strange. We do know that Wilkowitz's relatives contacted a 394 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 1: private DNA group. Now this private DNA group use this 395 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 1: investigative genealogical technique to solve violent crimes, and it's sparked 396 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 1: interest in the technique. Parabond they did not do. The 397 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: Golden State killer case has since helped dozens of cases 398 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 1: become solved, and they are led by the company's genetic 399 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 1: genealogist CC Moore. Now here's the problem. New York regulates 400 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:45,640 Speaker 1: private companies performing DNA forensic tests. I wonder, because it's 401 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 1: a private company, if that's why they won't allow it, 402 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: I don't understand why they won't do it themselves. Cheryl 403 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: appoint genetic genealogist, the gene hunter, Shara. How difficult would 404 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: it be too if you got DNA? How much do 405 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: you need? What quality does it have to be? Not degenerated? 406 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 1: How can we do this? Nessie? This DNA would have 407 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 1: to be put in what we call a sniff file, 408 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 1: and it would have to be uploaded to the genealogical 409 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: sites that we use, the same sites that I use 410 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: daily to help adoptees find their biological family. You put 411 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: that information in there and you look for connections, biological 412 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: connections to ancestors. It would I believe this case definitely 413 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: could benefit from this process. We would look for shared ancestors. 414 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: I build a family tree, and I find common lines 415 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: and give leads to law enforcements that hopefully would direct 416 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: them to someone who is connected to this criminal. Share 417 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 1: a point. I've got a question for you for people 418 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: that want to do for instance, ancestry dot com or 419 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: whatever it is they want to do. Is there a 420 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: way that they make their names secret? Do they give 421 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: false ID so it makes it harder to track them down? Yes, ma'am. 422 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: You can use aliases on any of these directed consumer 423 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:16,679 Speaker 1: DNA testing companies, and oftentimes it is difficult for us 424 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: to find out who a match is. And again, all 425 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: we get is a name of who the matches are. 426 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 1: We don't see anyone's genetic code. We just get names. 427 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: So it's very possible to keep that information private. On 428 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: the site that law enforcement uses white Jet Match, we 429 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: have to actually enter an email to upload your information. 430 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: So that's how I have been contacted in the past 431 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: by law enforcement looking at matches that could possibly help 432 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: them with cases. And I know now that law enforcement 433 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: cases have to be specifically tagged for law enforcement use. 434 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: So unless you opt in or agree to law enforcement 435 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: using that, you won't be seen by law enforcement, You're right. 436 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: So that's another hurdle that will have to be crossed 437 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: to host of America talkss Next TV former NYPD John Cardillo, 438 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: What about it, John Cardillo, Well, look in New York 439 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: State where we're talking about, there's something very bizarre going 440 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: on there politically. You can see it with their new 441 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: no cash bail New York State politicians, and I'm going 442 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: to come out and say it, and I'll take credit 443 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: for it, are pro criminal. There's no other way to 444 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: phrase it. Because the evidence supports it. We're letting in 445 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: New York State armed robbers, guys with four to five 446 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: bank robberies out on bail. And recently a ninety two 447 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: year old woman was raped and murdered by a repeat 448 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: offender set three hours after arrest because of no cash bail. 449 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: And so when you've got that pro criminal, anti criminal justice, 450 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: anti law and order mentality in New York State, why 451 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: would they deploy familiar DNA which is a travesty because 452 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: it works, it's constitutional, it's investigatively sound, and it's putting 453 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: bad guys in prison. And I think the people in 454 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: New York States would be very, very alarmed at what's 455 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: going on. To fill the Toronto father of slain jog 456 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: Or Karina Pa Toronto, you pushed at New York State 457 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: to allow familial DNA correct correct, and it is allowed. 458 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: And there were fourteen cases brought to New York State 459 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: Parlcreneal Justice that were approved for use of familiar DNA testing. 460 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: So it's not the governor who's putting the brakes on this. 461 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: It's a very slow process, but I'm trying to find 462 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: out what he's taking them so long. I mean, I've 463 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: even heard that they've gotten a few leads, you know, 464 00:30:49,720 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: a few hits where it might be a relation crime 465 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace and New York requires private companies 466 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: that want to do familial testing, although if it's been 467 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: allowed in New York, the crime Lab, the state crime Lab, 468 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: should be doing it. But private companies before they can 469 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: do DNA forensic testing, they have to get what is 470 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: called a forensic identity permit from the New York State 471 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: Department of Health, and that requires just private companies to 472 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: make sure they're up to snuff before they hand over 473 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: any DNA. But you don't want to lose the DNA 474 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: or damage the DNA for future testing, Doctor Chris Sperry, 475 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: a former chief Medical Examiner for the entire state of Georgia. 476 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: Doctor Sperry, can't you reproduce DNA in the lab? Say 477 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: you've just got a tiny bit of DNA? Can it 478 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: be regenerated so you can then share some of that 479 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: with a private testing company. Like peribond. Well, you can 480 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: amplify DNA, that is, using special techniques, you can take 481 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: a very very tiny quantity of DNA and really amplify 482 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: it or at large it so you have more to 483 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: work with. But it's you know, it's a very tricky 484 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: process as well, and it's in order to do that 485 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: and then share it with other companies, that's uh. You know, 486 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: there's also room for error if DNA is transferred from 487 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: one one place to another. The best process really is 488 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: to collect as much specimens as possible. Initially, say with 489 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: the autopsy has done and the examination of the victim 490 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: has done, is collect all the clothing, take multiple swabs 491 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: from everywhere on and in the body, especially in a 492 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: suspect of where a rape has been suspected, and then 493 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: be very careful about testing because only a tiny amount 494 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: of specimens is really nests sary um, you know these 495 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: days to do good accurate testing. So that's those are 496 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: that's part of the quality control aspects of doing DNA 497 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: testing is um that one has to be very careful. Again. 498 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: Fortunately today very very very tiny quantities are highly reliable. 499 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: I mean they're dependable, So even tiny amounts are dependable. 500 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: And I think I'm hearing what you're saying correctly or 501 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: understanding it correctly. Doctor Sperry, Are you saying that DNA 502 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: cannot be reproduced but you can amplify it or make 503 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: it bigger so you haven't more to test with. Yes, exactly, 504 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: that's done. That's that's the part of the routine process. 505 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: I guess. I want you to take a listen to 506 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: our friends at newsday so all I know she was 507 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: out with her friend in the city. She was working 508 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: to Mith Millen Publishing in Manhattan, and she was having 509 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: dinner with her friend, and she was going to go 510 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: on the train to come home and never made it home. 511 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: My kids, I worry every little time they go out 512 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: the doing my last worst and all the times. Be careful, 513 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 1: you know, I love you. I make sure I tell 514 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: them every time after I see you know, when I 515 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: see them, you know, be careful to be safe. You know, 516 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: you know it's you just never know. How could he 517 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 1: have lived with himself all these years and not have 518 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 1: turned himself in or whatever he still or how could 519 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: he you know, another human being do that's another human being. 520 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: It's just beyond my you know, how I could how 521 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: people could think on all of it and anymore, what 522 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 1: are you waiting for? You know, this is the time. 523 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 1: You know, life is too short, too precious to you know, 524 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: let's help help my family find acers. It's just crazy already. 525 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 1: Well likely because the killer, the rapist wants to save 526 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: his own skin. He may have even committed more rapes 527 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: and murders to Tony to Stephano, Newsday journalist joining as Tony, 528 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 1: what is the hold up? Why won't New York State 529 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: allow the familial DNA test? Well, I still said, you 530 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: know it is allowed in the problem is that there's 531 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:05,799 Speaker 1: a process that's a little bureaucratically cumbersome. Police agencies have 532 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: to sign with the state a memorandum of understanding. This 533 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: became big, uh flash point with the NYPD, and which 534 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: has no role in this case, the NYPD in the state. 535 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: But it's a it's a process. You got to sign, 536 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: it's memorandom. You've got to adhere to certain processes and practices. 537 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: You also have to have your people go through certain training. Uh. 538 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,840 Speaker 1: And you also have to get a sample that is 539 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: acceptable to the state. I don't think that's a problem 540 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: in this case. The will of its case. So again, 541 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: hold up. What do you think? Yeah, I think the 542 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 1: probable hold up to me is that somewhere along the 543 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 1: line they haven't done these bureaucratic things that either they 544 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 1: haven't signed a memorandum of understanding yea, or they haven't 545 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,360 Speaker 1: put enough people through through training. The police commissioners said 546 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 1: that they are working on it's a process, and okay, 547 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: that's that's what she's doing. But it's a process. I 548 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: wonder how that makes Eve's family feel. Listen to Mary 549 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,280 Speaker 1: Murphy picks eleven. The memories can be crushing for Irene Brossner, 550 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 1: who started running after her mother died. She was later 551 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: diagnosed with a painful stomach condition, Crohn's disease. She started 552 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: doing half marathons to fundraise. I really didn't have any 553 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,880 Speaker 1: friends whatsoever. But since teen challenge that the most amazing people. 554 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: When I'm running, that's my only time that my mind 555 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: is completely like at peace. Still, Brassiner's own medical challenges 556 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: have continued. Just two years, had always diagnosed breast cancer 557 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: and had a biladal mess at to maso, I'm cancer 558 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 1: for you. I think I sn't right now, and at 559 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: fifty three, Brossener said it's time to speak out. For 560 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: her sister. Her beloved father died in twenty ten without 561 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,879 Speaker 1: getting justice. What is your hope now? It's fine if 562 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: we did this to her. I know we can't bring 563 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 1: her back or anything. I have to be her voice 564 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: that it has to be now. If you have information, 565 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,280 Speaker 1: call eight hundred two two two eight four seven seven 566 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 1: Repeat eight hundred two two zero eight four seven seven 567 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off, goodbye friend