Speaker 1: Rube.
Speaker 2: When I think about empathy, which is such an overused
Speaker 2: word today, to me, it's not putting on your shoes.
Speaker 2: It's not stepping into your shoes. I could never do that.
Speaker 2: I think about empathy as being a passenger with you
Speaker 2: on your journey, if you let me, putting my hand
Speaker 2: on your shoulder and being like I got you, I
Speaker 2: got you, Like, let's do this. There's no friction we
Speaker 2: cannot solve. But it takes the right culture. It takes
Speaker 2: a willingness to be transparent and to have communication. I
Speaker 2: firmly believe.
Speaker 3: That that's Claude Silver offering up a new way to
Speaker 3: think about empathy, not as stepping into someone else's shoes,
Speaker 3: but as writing shotgun on their journey. And as you'll hear,
Speaker 3: that's not just a personal philosophy, it's her job. Claude
Speaker 3: is the Chief Heart Officer at Vaynermedia. Yeah, Heart officer.
Speaker 3: It's a real c suite role at one of the
Speaker 3: most talked about media companies in the world, and Claude's
Speaker 3: mission is to scale emotional intelligence inside the workplace. In
Speaker 3: this conversation, she breaks down what that actually means and
Speaker 3: how empathy, when done right isn't soft, it's strategic. Claude
Speaker 3: and I go way back, but this was the first
Speaker 3: time I had the chance to really dig into her
Speaker 3: leadership style, how it was shaped by her childhood, her
Speaker 3: nana who literally called her heart, her experience in therapy,
Speaker 3: and her early years navigating corporate culture as a sensitive,
Speaker 3: intuitive person. We also get into hybrid work, difficult conversations, parenting, burnout,
Speaker 3: and why kindness at work is having a long overdue moment.
Speaker 3: I'm furnished to RAVI and this is leading by example,
Speaker 3: executives making an impact. Claude Silver, Welcome. It's so nice
Speaker 3: to see you, and we're in person. Let's just announce
Speaker 3: that because that's a special treat.
Speaker 2: It's awesome. It's great to see you. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: I've known you for many years.
Speaker 3: I don't know if I've ever had this opportunity to
Speaker 3: really understand your leadership style. Where sourced and so let's
Speaker 3: go to childhood. As we're both moms, we know our kids.
Speaker 3: When we look back on their childhoods, it won't be
Speaker 3: a coincidence. Maybe who they become or their talents. But
Speaker 3: as a child, you were repeatedly told Claude that you
Speaker 3: think too much with the heart, and now you're the
Speaker 3: chief heart officer at Vayner Media. Was there a moment
Speaker 3: in your life or your career where you realize that
Speaker 3: leading with heart was actually your greatest strength?
Speaker 2: Yeah, there absolutely was, And it took me a long
Speaker 2: time to get there because I actually felt like something
Speaker 2: was wrong with me.
Speaker 3: Really.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I thought when my parents would love in
Speaker 2: their hearts, would say to me, Claude, you think too
Speaker 2: much with your heart. You have to learn how to
Speaker 2: think with your head. And sometimes they would compare me
Speaker 2: to my brother Caleb, who is much more analytical than
Speaker 2: I am. But I thought, oh gosh, I must have
Speaker 2: a missing chip, like what's going on? What's happening? And
Speaker 2: so it took a lot of years, a lot of therapy,
Speaker 2: a lot of different things to finally understand, Oh, being
Speaker 2: an EmPATH actually is my superpower? Why don't I lean
Speaker 2: in to it? And it really was my Nana, who
Speaker 2: we called each other heart. That's like the crazy thing.
Speaker 2: Oh she called me heart and I called her heart.
Speaker 2: She basically was the kindest, most generous person I had
Speaker 2: ever known in my life, and I really credit her
Speaker 2: for emotionally raising me in many ways for kind of
Speaker 2: shining the light on Hey, it's okay, it's good, like,
Speaker 2: this is who you are. Don't hide it, don't try
Speaker 2: to change it, because you can't. I really can't.
Speaker 3: You studied it too before this became kind of your
Speaker 3: professional identity. You have a background in human psychology. How
Speaker 3: did that inform your brand so to speak? Today?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I do have a background in human behavior,
Speaker 2: human psychology, spirituality, and what that showed me, What that
Speaker 2: gave me was that, Wow, we're all so similar and
Speaker 2: we have different lived experiences, but we all go through
Speaker 2: very similar emotions. It just happens to be we're triggered
Speaker 2: by different things because of our background. So what that
Speaker 2: gave me was pattern recognition. Being dyslexic, I had to
Speaker 2: learn really early on how to find my way in
Speaker 2: the world and how to navigate my way, and I
Speaker 2: think patterns was how I got there. When people are
Speaker 2: in pain, when people are expressing joy, when people are
Speaker 2: expressing surprise or astonishment, this is how people usually behave.
Speaker 2: And so for me, patterns became a shortcut in a
Speaker 2: way that I could figure things out quicker. And that
Speaker 2: was important to me because I really did feel slow
Speaker 2: slower than the average bear, which was never a great feeling.
Speaker 2: I think leaning into emotional intelligence, which I didn't even
Speaker 2: know the name for it, I think I really put
Speaker 2: myself through an incredible education called life. I didn't graduate
Speaker 2: college until I was twenty eight, so I did a
Speaker 2: lot of this extracurricular studying on my own because I
Speaker 2: was passionate about it, not because someone told me I
Speaker 2: had to in order to get a degree, which is
Speaker 2: a big difference.
Speaker 3: Were you concerned about finding your way through corporate as
Speaker 3: an empact?
Speaker 2: I was concerned that I wouldn't find my way period
Speaker 2: anywhere for a long time until it seemed like the
Speaker 2: skill sets I have seemed to match what this job needs,
Speaker 2: and what those first early jobs were were client relations.
Speaker 2: So okay, you know, I like people, and I'm curious
Speaker 2: about people, and I'm a good question asker, and I
Speaker 2: think that opened the door to furthering my career, and
Speaker 2: I've always done agency work. I landed in advertising agencies.
Speaker 2: It was right after the dot com boom, the first one.
Speaker 3: What was that like? I wanted to ask you about
Speaker 3: that your early days in advertising being in like the
Speaker 3: right place at the right time, that, of course in
Speaker 3: part shaped your digital career.
Speaker 2: One thousand percent. Living in San Francisco. I moved there
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety five, so I was there for some
Speaker 2: of the greatest moments, saddest moments, AIDS crisis also, but
Speaker 2: also technology. All of a sudden, it was like, Oh,
Speaker 2: what is modem? Oh what does that sound?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 2: What is Yahoo? You know this is all before Google
Speaker 2: or Facebook, but really, what is Yahoo?
Speaker 4: Still?
Speaker 3: We're asking that question? Does Yahooh?
Speaker 2: And it was the wild, wild wild West. And I
Speaker 2: didn't feel like I had to be a certain way,
Speaker 2: as I think probably the younger generations, generations that came
Speaker 2: after me, probably felt like they had to fit more
Speaker 2: of a mold. I didn't feel like I needed to
Speaker 2: wear pumps. I didn't feel like I needed to wear
Speaker 2: some kind of business suit. These were great days of
Speaker 2: curiosity and wonder and let's try this and overspend here
Speaker 2: and overspend here. So it was a big joy ride
Speaker 2: and an adventure. But we knew we were trying to
Speaker 2: do things. And all of the companies that I worked with,
Speaker 2: even before I got into advertising, were all community based,
Speaker 2: and that's where we are today. Every platform is community based.
Speaker 2: I believe somewhere we're trying to bring people together and
Speaker 2: to bring people closer, even though you know, we could
Speaker 2: have another conversation on does that work or does it
Speaker 2: not work.
Speaker 3: You also spend time abroad, yes I did. What did
Speaker 3: international life teach you about patterns or human psychology? What
Speaker 3: did you take from those experiences?
Speaker 2: The first thing I took is that as an American,
Speaker 2: we think the world revolves around US and America, and
Speaker 2: it just doesn't. One of the first things I recognized
Speaker 2: was watching the news over there and seeing things about
Speaker 2: places that I had never heard about, and in America,
Speaker 2: our news is very centered in what's happening here. So
Speaker 2: it showed me a that the world is much bigger.
Speaker 2: Being in London is very different than when I would
Speaker 2: travel other places. I mean London, they're very polite and
Speaker 2: they don't like confrontation, so everything comes with a sorry first,
Speaker 2: and you're like, but what are you really trying to
Speaker 2: say to me? Where are we going here? And again
Speaker 2: it showed me that we are all so similar. It
Speaker 2: just depends on how we came up in the world
Speaker 2: and what we were taught or what we wanted to
Speaker 2: run away from, or you know, just that everyone went
Speaker 2: through adolescence. And I'm speaking more for the Western world.
Speaker 2: We all went through a very similar adolescence. I don't
Speaker 2: know what some of the other people in third world
Speaker 2: countries and people that are more impoverished and less privileged
Speaker 2: than I am have gone through in those stages, but
Speaker 2: what I can say is there's such a similarity, and
Speaker 2: so when we start to fight with one another, it
Speaker 2: hurts because it's like, hey, wait a second, we have
Speaker 2: no idea how that person just started their day. We
Speaker 2: have no idea what happened to that person from the
Speaker 2: hours of six to nine before they opened their laptop
Speaker 2: and got online. We have no idea that their dog
Speaker 2: was sick, their child was in the hospital, they got
Speaker 2: engaged last night, all kinds of things. But that happens
Speaker 2: all over the world. And so that's one of the
Speaker 2: things that taught me is that you know, not to
Speaker 2: quote depeche Mode, but I will oh any time. Okay,
Speaker 2: I mean, well, are people? People?
Speaker 3: Are people? Are people?
Speaker 2: Oh? What kiss it?
Speaker 3: But I'm also learning about Uclaude is that in addition
Speaker 3: to your knack for identifying patterns, you're also quite the translator.
Speaker 3: You have a code that's like built in you, like
Speaker 3: you know the code. You meet people from all walks
Speaker 3: of life, and you're able to understand them in a
Speaker 3: way that maybe they are not even aware that that's
Speaker 3: how they're presenting themselves, but you're seeing them at the
Speaker 3: end of the day. I think really important, especially in
Speaker 3: the context of work.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's a code, but I take
Speaker 2: that as an incredible compliment, so thank you. But I
Speaker 2: do see them. I do know that there's something going
Speaker 2: on behind someone's eyes, and that could be a surprise
Speaker 2: to them or surprise to me. But I like going
Speaker 2: with them on the journey. So for me, when I
Speaker 2: think about empathy, which is such an overused word today,
Speaker 2: to me, it's not putting on your shoes. It's not
Speaker 2: stepping into your shoes. I could never do that. I
Speaker 2: think about empathy as being a passenger with you on
Speaker 2: your journey, if you let me just writing shotgun with you,
Speaker 2: putting my hand on your shoulder and being like I
Speaker 2: got you, I got you, Like let's do this. There's nothing,
Speaker 2: especially the workplace, that we cannot solve unless it's something
Speaker 2: to do with a person's health. There's no friction we
Speaker 2: cannot solve I firmly believe that. But it takes the
Speaker 2: right culture. It takes a willingness to be transparent and
Speaker 2: to have communication and to learn. Like people for the
Speaker 2: most part have good intentions, right, It's not one hundred
Speaker 2: percent all the time, But I don't think we go
Speaker 2: into work to go and try to collaborate people. Yes
Speaker 2: it's political, and yes there's games and all that junk
Speaker 2: that we've lived through. I think they get triggered. I
Speaker 2: get triggered just like the next person. So my code
Speaker 2: is really figuring out what's going on, what's preventing you
Speaker 2: from shining? Why do you have that imposter syndrome? What's
Speaker 2: holding you back? Were you told that you needed to
Speaker 2: be perfect? Is that why you go and you look
Speaker 2: at that person's PowerPoint presentation and you find errors first
Speaker 2: before you read the entire story. Just tell me why.
Speaker 2: Let's walk through that and then let's reframe that and
Speaker 2: think of something different. Like, I wonder what would happen
Speaker 2: if you look at that PowerPoint presentation from start to
Speaker 2: finish and read it before criticizing it fair?
Speaker 3: Would that be?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 3: I think we can all take that advance. It's human nature.
Speaker 3: We look for what's working what's not working? First?
Speaker 2: Exactly? You almost said, we look for what's working first
Speaker 2: and let's get there one day. Please.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I want to transition to vayner Media. You joined
Speaker 3: in twenty fourteen and then you resigned three months later,
Speaker 3: you returned as the chief heart officer. I want to
Speaker 3: know what happened during those three months, What were you doing,
Speaker 3: what were you reflecting on? Why did you leave?
Speaker 2: So I was hired by Gary Vaynerchuk, my boss, who's
Speaker 2: just a phenomenal guy, phenomenal entrepreneur. I was the first
Speaker 2: SVP that he hired, and I was probably the third
Speaker 2: oldest person in vayner and I ran Unilever, which was
Speaker 2: our largest book of business every time. And about a
Speaker 2: year into it, I started to get that feeling that
Speaker 2: I had earlier when I was living in London, which
Speaker 2: was it's not that important to me if it's red
Speaker 2: or brown or blue, or if the copy is incursive
Speaker 2: or the grammar is right. That doesn't light me up
Speaker 2: at all. And these conversations don't excite me. But what
Speaker 2: excites me is the people that are bringing it to fruition,
Speaker 2: bringing creative ideas to life. That's what excites me. So
Speaker 2: I went to Gary and I said, hey, I love
Speaker 2: it here. You're the best. This is the greatest place ever.
Speaker 2: But I no longer want to work in advertising. And
Speaker 2: then he said, what do you want to do? And
Speaker 2: I said, I only care about the people here. I
Speaker 2: care about the heart beat. Really heartbeat, is what I said.
Speaker 2: And he said, one day we're going to write a
Speaker 2: book on heart but I need you to stay for
Speaker 2: eighteen more months, and I remember saying, I'll give you six.
Speaker 2: He doesn't remember that part of the story. But I
Speaker 2: found my backfill and I resign. And during those three months,
Speaker 2: I worked out, I walked the dog, I went snowboarding,
Speaker 2: I visited my friends. I just freed myself from, quite frankly,
Speaker 2: the bondage of a phone and my emails and text messages.
Speaker 2: And I just kind of like, I dreamed, what do
Speaker 2: I want to do? I know, I don't want to
Speaker 2: go back to doing what is going to be very
Speaker 2: shiny for me. Any job offer that comes my way
Speaker 2: would be very shiny at that point, What do I
Speaker 2: want to do? And I thought, okay, well, I'll start
Speaker 2: a coaching practice. That seems like something I really enjoy doing.
Speaker 2: I want to work with people, and so he called
Speaker 2: me back. We had breakfast, we sat down, he said,
Speaker 2: that's it, you're coming back. You're going to be chief
Speaker 2: Heeart officer. And I knew exactly what that meant, maybe
Speaker 2: because he and I speak a very similar code, but
Speaker 2: it just made sense to me. We didn't have HR.
Speaker 2: I have never been in HR. Now I can tell
Speaker 2: you that I am and I've done that.
Speaker 4: I have a.
Speaker 2: New appreciation for people in HR. I don't call it that,
Speaker 2: I call it people and experience. But when I was
Speaker 2: there for those first sixteen months, being one of the
Speaker 2: oldest and the OG, I was doing a lot of hiring,
Speaker 2: I was doing a lot of terminations. I was that
Speaker 2: person that people would come to. I was tenured in
Speaker 2: all of those things that you really need in a
Speaker 2: fast paced, growing company when you have a lot of
Speaker 2: youth there. And so I immediately said to him what are
Speaker 2: we doing? And he said, we're building the single greatest
Speaker 2: human organization in the history of time. And I said,
Speaker 2: sign me up. That's aspirational. And I said, cool, how
Speaker 2: do we know if I'm successful? And he said, you
Speaker 2: will touch every single human being and deploy empathy throughout
Speaker 2: the halls, okay, And then I said I don't want
Speaker 2: to do HR and he said, great, You'll hire a
Speaker 2: team around you and ret one of Gary's strength, which
Speaker 2: is something that he's really taught me, which is you
Speaker 2: put people in position to succeed, You set them up
Speaker 2: for success, and you dive in on your strengths. And
Speaker 2: if I go back to Nana seeing emotional intelligence as
Speaker 2: a superpower, and I go, that's what Gary recognized, and
Speaker 2: he was like, I need this person to be me
Speaker 2: in those rooms that I can't be in. I need
Speaker 2: this person to go and figure out all that michig
Speaker 2: go as over there, or what the chaos is or
Speaker 2: the cynicism over there, and scale that out. And so
Speaker 2: I've been with Gary. It'll be eleven years in May,
Speaker 2: and I've been chief our officer for nine years almost
Speaker 2: to the day. And so that's what I do every
Speaker 2: single day. Figure that out on a bigger playing field
Speaker 2: now that we've grown so much.
Speaker 3: Walk me through a typical day. I would love to
Speaker 3: understand how your work and your insights manifest in somebody
Speaker 3: else's success.
Speaker 2: I love that because at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: it is really about ROI, right or it's roe return
Speaker 2: on energy. Someone told me that the other day.
Speaker 1: I like that.
Speaker 2: I like that. I'll take that. It's actually one of
Speaker 2: the architects of Google's project, Aristotle, who said ROE, and
Speaker 2: I was like, yes, I will steal anything you give me.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 3: Put that in my pocket.
Speaker 2: A typical day will be having one on one so
Speaker 2: people have set up time with me because they heard
Speaker 2: I might be a good person to help them connect
Speaker 2: with other people, or they want to know about my journey,
Speaker 2: or they had a funny meeting with a manager, or
Speaker 2: not quite sure if they're up for a raise or
Speaker 2: so whatever. People will just come and talk, so we'll
Speaker 2: travel through those conversations. It's fifteen minute conversation. I got
Speaker 2: pretty quick at figuring out how to get to where
Speaker 2: I need to get to and to leave them feeling
Speaker 2: better than they did. They felt great, then I'm going
Speaker 2: to make them feel even greater. If I can or
Speaker 2: at least acknowledge that they are awesome, then I'm going
Speaker 2: to have strategy meetings with either people that are across
Speaker 2: the globe and our other offices figuring out One of
Speaker 2: the things I'm helping people do is where is their smoke?
Speaker 2: Where are people unhappy? Where are people happy? Where are
Speaker 2: their roses? Where are their thorns? What are we going
Speaker 2: to do about that? How are we going to continue
Speaker 2: recognizing our people? And where there is cynicism or yuckiness,
Speaker 2: what are we going to do it? Like, we have
Speaker 2: to get to the root of that, because if we
Speaker 2: want to retain rockstar people, then that's our job. And
Speaker 2: I work with senior leadership, and I work with all
Speaker 2: of our pod leads so SVPs EVPs to figure out
Speaker 2: how their people are doing and how are they leading.
Speaker 2: So I spend also a lot of time doing leadership training,
Speaker 2: like senior leadership high performance training. How do you know
Speaker 2: how people feel when you enter a room? How do
Speaker 2: you know that if you enter a room with your
Speaker 2: head and your phone, you have no clue And actually
Speaker 2: that's the energy you just brought into the room. So
Speaker 2: the energy is you don't really care, you don't have time,
Speaker 2: or you're distracted. So let's reverse that. Let's walk into
Speaker 2: a room saying, hey, everyone, how are you doing? How's
Speaker 2: your weekend? Those types of things. I talk about new
Speaker 2: offices we're opening. I talk about how we can expand
Speaker 2: our culture what we call honey empire into those other
Speaker 2: offices and places where I don't speak the language. Are
Speaker 2: we making sure that in Mexico City we're doing the
Speaker 2: trainings in their native language. I do a lot of
Speaker 2: financial meetings also, which is crazy because I'm not a
Speaker 2: financier at all, but trying to figure out how we
Speaker 2: can become more profitable. Where do we have bulk, what
Speaker 2: are we doing there? Talent planning, where are high performers?
Speaker 2: Where we plotting people? And this is all happening throughout
Speaker 2: the day. There's not a wasted meeting, That's what I'll say.
Speaker 3: Well, on that, I wanted to go back to those
Speaker 3: one on ones that you have. How do you hold
Speaker 3: in balance being there for them, having that empathy, but
Speaker 3: also being efficient because I think, especially for someone who
Speaker 3: may not be familiar with how the meetings get run,
Speaker 3: it's a sort of a dump, so to speak, of
Speaker 3: all their emotions. Or they are looking for you just
Speaker 3: supposide it as a therapist, So how do you sort
Speaker 3: of walk the line and be both empathetic and efficient.
Speaker 2: I would say they're probably looking for me more to
Speaker 2: be a coach, because I put that into the water
Speaker 2: that we're not therapists and I'm not a therapist, so
Speaker 2: I can't help you there. So I would say we're
Speaker 2: coaches and guides for sure, and that is something that
Speaker 2: we feed the system constantly. I had a resident that
Speaker 2: came and spoke to me yesterday and she asked me
Speaker 2: the exact same question. She said, I'm an EmPATH. I
Speaker 2: don't know how to be an EmPATH and not take
Speaker 2: on people's feelings. And I don't know how to be
Speaker 2: an EmPATH and be very successful at my job. And
Speaker 2: so one of the things I shared with her and
Speaker 2: you brought up the word, which is called efficient, is
Speaker 2: You're not going to change your stripes. It's who you are.
Speaker 2: Be proud of that. What you need to do is
Speaker 2: learn how to create space for another person to have
Speaker 2: their stuff, but constantly be pushing self awareness and self
Speaker 2: regulation to them, Like, Okay, if this person is sitting
Speaker 2: there with Bob or Sally, Oh, Sally, it's really amazing.
Speaker 2: You're so self aware. That's really awesome. How do you
Speaker 2: handle it when you have a bad day? Oh, I
Speaker 2: go into the bathroom and have a cry. Okay, how
Speaker 2: else do you handle it when you have a bad day?
Speaker 2: I go for a walk? How would you handle it.
Speaker 2: If your coworker came to you and had a bad day,
Speaker 2: I would say, let's go for a walk. Or if
Speaker 2: they say, I don't know, I don't know what I
Speaker 2: would do. If I saw someone having a bad day,
Speaker 2: That's when I say, actually, you're just as responsible for
Speaker 2: this culture as I am. And so what you would
Speaker 2: do is say, hey, I notice that you're having a
Speaker 2: bad day. You want to go talk? Is there someone
Speaker 2: I can connect you with? Those are like just the
Speaker 2: little bits that I'm trying to infuse in the system,
Speaker 2: which I call emotional efficiency. Quite frankly, this is something
Speaker 2: I talk quite a bit about and I have a
Speaker 2: book coming out and I really talk about it, emotional optimism,
Speaker 2: emotional bravery, and emotional efficiency. And this is a flywheel
Speaker 2: that's happening constantly. Emotional optimism is the fact that we
Speaker 2: all have bad days, we all go through emotions, We
Speaker 2: go through highs, we go through lows. You know, our
Speaker 2: dog got sick this morning and then I had to
Speaker 2: get on a screen and deal with something that was crying.
Speaker 2: Whatever it is, right, So okay, what can I do
Speaker 2: with that? I can have faith and hope that it's
Speaker 2: going to turn around. Tomorrow. I can have faith and
Speaker 2: hope that I can call my best friend, I can
Speaker 2: call my brother, I can call someone at work and
Speaker 2: they can talk me out of this slump. But I
Speaker 2: have to believe in that. That's the optimism. The next
Speaker 2: step is emotional bravery. What do I do? What actions
Speaker 2: do I take? Knowing that I'm supported, knowing that I'm good?
Speaker 2: How can I be braver in this situation? Oh gosh,
Speaker 2: I have to have a hard conversation with my boss.
Speaker 4: All right.
Speaker 2: That's up to me to bring my self awareness and
Speaker 2: my ability to regulate my own emotions and bring that
Speaker 2: conversation to my boss and be brave and it's okay
Speaker 2: if my emotions come out, I'm not spilling anywhere. The
Speaker 2: more I do that, and the more you do that
Speaker 2: within teams, you create efficiency. Efficiency is a shorthand. So
Speaker 2: back to this ROI, which is the question, it's how
Speaker 2: can we help one another within the workplace of understanding
Speaker 2: that emotions are allowed. We are not in a time
Speaker 2: and place where we are going to go armor up anymore.
Speaker 2: That's not going to work, certainly not going to work
Speaker 2: for this generation or Generation Alpha that's going to come
Speaker 2: up soon that's the first thing. So how can we
Speaker 2: be in a workplace and be feelers and have our
Speaker 2: own feelings and still keep our eye on the prize.
Speaker 2: We need the entire organization to be rowing in the
Speaker 2: same direction, and that means we need to spend a
Speaker 2: lot of time with one another having these conversations of like, hey,
Speaker 2: your emotions are totally fine. I need you to keep
Speaker 2: that in check, though, because when you have an outburst
Speaker 2: like that, you've just destroyed the productivity for the rest
Speaker 2: of the day for that team. Like, if you're going
Speaker 2: to have an outburst, that's cool, go out to the bathroom.
Speaker 2: I'll meet you there in five minutes, or I'll have
Speaker 2: your you know what I mean? Like, yes, So much
Speaker 2: of what I talk about is common sense, and I
Speaker 2: recognize it's not common for everyone, But I don't think
Speaker 2: it's difficult to be kind and to be effective. I
Speaker 2: do think there's a marriage there and those things can
Speaker 2: happen if you have the right support around you and
Speaker 2: your culture says it's okay, And I don't mean it's
Speaker 2: okay because they have banners on the walls. Are like
Speaker 2: sore fly, Hi, you can do it. Aspire for greatness
Speaker 2: you need to have your values in the water stream.
Speaker 2: People need to act on them, and then they become habits.
Speaker 2: And this is something that Gary talks about and he
Speaker 2: uses the word osmosis, which is something that is very
Speaker 2: difficult to teach. You have to experience over and over
Speaker 2: over and over. And so what did we start talking
Speaker 2: about in the beginning patterns. It's the same exact thing, consistency.
Speaker 2: And so when someone consistently behaves a certain way, I
Speaker 2: can trust that they're always going to behave that way.
Speaker 2: When a person is inconsistent or wobbles, or one day
Speaker 2: they're like this, everyone's going to have a little bit
Speaker 2: of distrust around that person. What our job is as
Speaker 2: leaders is to be able to point that out in
Speaker 2: a kind, compassionate but very candorous way to that person
Speaker 2: and helping and facilitating other people to do their best
Speaker 2: on dealing with it. I didn't say exterminate it, deal
Speaker 2: with it. So I shouldn't or the people an experienced
Speaker 2: team shouldn't be the people dealing with all of this.
Speaker 2: Your managers need to be dealing with some of the
Speaker 2: angst or some of the turmoil, or some of the
Speaker 2: whatever on your teams.
Speaker 3: When we come back. Claude gets into what it really
Speaker 3: looks like to lead with heart in the hard moments
Speaker 3: like layoffs, hybrid work tensions, and the emotional weight that
Speaker 3: caregivers bring to the office every day. She also shares
Speaker 3: why she finally wrote her new book, Be Yourself at Work,
Speaker 3: and what she sees on the horizon for the future
Speaker 3: of leadership.
Speaker 2: The eye has to be on the prize, and the
Speaker 2: prize is yes, having a healthy culture and having people
Speaker 2: that want to work and that make friends that I'm
Speaker 2: devoted to in a place that's kind in this camaraderie,
Speaker 2: but I'm also devoted to being successful. I want everyone
Speaker 2: to be able to get the raise that they're looking
Speaker 2: for and to get the promotion. But that only happens
Speaker 2: when the organism is working together. It takes a village.
Speaker 3: Stay with us. So when you experience resistance or skepticism
Speaker 3: from culture about your ideologies around empathy in the workplace,
Speaker 3: what are the most common things that you hear.
Speaker 2: So we're a workplace, and we're a business, and we
Speaker 2: have to make money, and so sometimes we are going
Speaker 2: to be more empire than honey. So our culture is
Speaker 2: called honey empire. I'd like to say we're fifty one
Speaker 2: percent honey, forty nine percent empire. Some days we're going
Speaker 2: to be fifty one percent empire. And so what I
Speaker 2: hear about our culture at times is we're just so
Speaker 2: focused on the bottom line. We're so focused on sales.
Speaker 2: We're so focused on being the best or being the first, Like,
Speaker 2: where's the softness, where's the empathy in that clot And
Speaker 2: that's a tough one, because yes, I can spend time
Speaker 2: with you and show you how we got to that
Speaker 2: place or why it's so necessary. Because of the financial
Speaker 2: environment that we're all in right now, or certainly the
Speaker 2: financial environment that advertising agencies are in today, we have
Speaker 2: to be serious about our work, and we have to
Speaker 2: be serious about being exceptional with our clients and delivering
Speaker 2: on what we said we would deliver on time. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and if that goes against your idea of empathy, well
Speaker 2: then we can have that talk once you're finished. The
Speaker 2: eye has to be on the prize, and the prize is, yes,
Speaker 2: having a healthy culture and having people that want to
Speaker 2: work and that make friends that I'm devoted to in
Speaker 2: a place that's kind and there's camaraderie, but I'm also
Speaker 2: devoted to being successful. I want everyone to be able
Speaker 2: to get the raise that they're looking for and to
Speaker 2: get the promotion. But that only happens when the organism
Speaker 2: is working together. It takes a village. And so we
Speaker 2: have orientation every other week and I meet every single
Speaker 2: new joiner and that can be a C suite employee
Speaker 2: sitting with an art director, it doesn't matter. It's all
Speaker 2: on zoom. But I love that because it flattens the
Speaker 2: organization right then and there. But the first thing I'll
Speaker 2: say to them is culture is everyone's responsibility, and wonderful
Speaker 2: this screen. You are all now just as responsible for
Speaker 2: the culture as I am. And that's a great thing
Speaker 2: because you were chosen for a reason. We chose you.
Speaker 2: You have the right skill sets and you are going
Speaker 2: to bring such wonderful additions to this culture.
Speaker 3: I want to talk a little bit about difficult conversations
Speaker 3: that you have with your employees around issues of like
Speaker 3: coming into a meeting and not looking like you're fully there,
Speaker 3: but also harder ones like your positions being eliminated. How
Speaker 3: do you do it?
Speaker 2: So I'm going to put a heading on top of
Speaker 2: this topic, which is called accountability. And I believe that
Speaker 2: for a culture to be healthy and thriving, there needs
Speaker 2: to be accountability and people need to know what they
Speaker 2: are accountable and responsible for. That is our job as
Speaker 2: the leaders of this company to make sure people know
Speaker 2: that and to make sure leadership knows that. That's the
Speaker 2: first thing I want to say when it comes time
Speaker 2: for that person to be exited. My hope and my prayer,
Speaker 2: and I'm like a hawk with this, is that we
Speaker 2: have documented and had those conversations along the way. That
Speaker 2: is a must. And I'm not talking about waiting for
Speaker 2: quarterly reviews. I'm talking about frequent feedback. As a manager,
Speaker 2: as a leader, that is your job to make sure
Speaker 2: John knows where he is anytime he asks you, right,
Speaker 2: what does he need to do? What is he not doing?
Speaker 2: Where is he excelling all of those things. By the
Speaker 2: time that conversation of an exit comes my way or
Speaker 2: comes to the team's way, what I'm expecting is that
Speaker 2: it is not going to come as a big surprise.
Speaker 2: And that is something we need to get a lot
Speaker 2: better at, which is called clarity and communication and making
Speaker 2: sure we are holding ourselves accountable as we're holding him accountable.
Speaker 2: It has to be a two Way Street. So in
Speaker 2: those conversations, I will often sit down and say, I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: this is going to be a really challenging conversation. And
Speaker 2: based on the conversations, or based on the last reviews,
Speaker 2: or based on your behavior last week, or based on
Speaker 2: what we've talked about several times now, it's been documented
Speaker 2: on how you gossip constantly about a person's appearance or
Speaker 2: whatever it is fill in the blank. Today is going
Speaker 2: to be your last day. I'm really sorry that we
Speaker 2: weren't able to work this out together. Something like that.
Speaker 2: What I will say, and this is not to make
Speaker 2: it like, oh yeah, I got this down.
Speaker 4: I don't.
Speaker 2: These are hard conversations someone's livelihood. We have an exceptional
Speaker 2: alumni program that we created three years ago. So let
Speaker 2: me just explain that really quickly. A lot of people
Speaker 2: come to Gary, a lot of companies, a lot of cmos,
Speaker 2: Hey do you have a social media marketer for my
Speaker 2: ex company or my Y company? And we put all
Speaker 2: of those jobs into our own database, and we reach
Speaker 2: out to people that have either left Vanner Media or
Speaker 2: we know we will be exiting. We promise that within
Speaker 2: three days, this gentleman, Justin Novello will reach out to you.
Speaker 2: He's going to help you with your resume and your
Speaker 2: LinkedIn profile, and we will connect you. We can't guarantee
Speaker 2: a conversation or a job. Are many times that Gary
Speaker 2: will say, I will talk to whomever I know at
Speaker 2: that company and I will at least get you a conversation.
Speaker 2: So we promise that to every single person, and we've
Speaker 2: been really successful. We also have a lot of boomerangs
Speaker 2: that come back three years later, five years later, seven
Speaker 2: years later. So that's all to say. These conversations are
Speaker 2: painful for everyone, and my hope is that we continue
Speaker 2: to get better at our communication and get clearer and
Speaker 2: more specific so that it is not a surprise when
Speaker 2: that person comes in, because that's the worst thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's quite generous, I think, and I think speaks
Speaker 3: for itself when people come back. I think that speaks volumes.
Speaker 3: One more question about the workplace, and then I want
Speaker 3: to get into your advice for those who want to
Speaker 3: maybe take on some of your leadership or like you
Speaker 3: have changed your career multiple times, they want to do that,
Speaker 3: But I have to ask you about hybrid work. You
Speaker 3: have said no one will stand for five days a
Speaker 3: week in office Why is it so important to have
Speaker 3: flexible work as it speaks to your values as chief
Speaker 3: heard officer.
Speaker 2: My values as a chief Heart officer are based around
Speaker 2: being human. Yeah, they're really based around common sense things
Speaker 2: as we've talked about. It's just it's the basics, and
Speaker 2: I really believe our workplaces need to meet us there.
Speaker 2: We need time for our own personal health, for our family,
Speaker 2: for our friends, for just doing a day to day appointments.
Speaker 2: That we just need time to live as free people
Speaker 2: as freely as we possibly can, with the commitment that
Speaker 2: we will be accountable to our job. I don't think
Speaker 2: we need to big brother people. I believe that big
Speaker 2: brothering people is the antithesis of what I'm about. It
Speaker 2: feels like there's a scarcity in the world, a fear.
Speaker 2: You know, why can't we trust people to do the
Speaker 2: work that we hire them to do. I understand that
Speaker 2: there are times in which we need people in the
Speaker 2: office one thousand percent and we want people to look
Speaker 2: over someone's shoulder and say, oh, yeah, no, I would
Speaker 2: put a little more rust color in there or whatever
Speaker 2: it is. But I want people to feel like they
Speaker 2: can live their lives and not have to balance this
Speaker 2: work life balance that we put in place a century
Speaker 2: ago during the factory age when it was eight hours,
Speaker 2: eight hours, eight hours.
Speaker 3: Has your leadership adjusted in a hybrid model world at
Speaker 3: all in terms of, let's say, after someone who's working
Speaker 3: remotely from home, what is that person's future in terms
Speaker 3: of leading a team? Actually, at right there is the
Speaker 3: million dollar question. As a leader, you have an enormous
Speaker 3: responsibility to grow and nurture people. So three day in office,
Speaker 3: I think is great. If we can do that, I
Speaker 3: think we would accomplish a ton, a ton of closeness
Speaker 3: and camaraderie and collaboration and curiosity together and then also
Speaker 3: being able to go to the dentist at ten o'clock
Speaker 3: in the morning. So I really do think hybrid is
Speaker 3: the way to go. I believe in flexibility, I believe
Speaker 3: and freedom. I believe in giving people the opportunity to
Speaker 3: show us what they can do, and if they can't, well,
Speaker 3: then we have to have those harder conversations.
Speaker 2: We need you in the office this amount of time.
Speaker 2: I will say that what has changed for me the
Speaker 2: most is being a mom, you know, and really understanding
Speaker 2: what that takes to be a parent or a caregiver.
Speaker 2: The emotional package that you wear that I wear as
Speaker 2: a parent every day is it's invisible, but it's there.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, And that's one of the things that I'm
Speaker 2: really big on right now. We just kicked off a
Speaker 2: brand new parents Caregivers group rate a banner to really
Speaker 2: have these hard conversations. Not about benefits, That's not what
Speaker 2: I'm talking about, but just having the courageous conversations of like, yeah,
Speaker 2: my kid has special needs, or my kid has to
Speaker 2: have an operation, or I need to be there to
Speaker 2: have dinner with my children.
Speaker 3: All right, let's pick your brain and get some advice
Speaker 3: for our listeners on reinvention. Career reinvention, you're not shy
Speaker 3: to this. What advice would you give to mid career professionals,
Speaker 3: especially who feel stagnant in their careers. They want to
Speaker 3: do a pivot, but they're afraid.
Speaker 2: So what I would say is work with a coach.
Speaker 2: Don't do this alone. I would really say, find someone
Speaker 2: that you can talk to about what it is your
Speaker 2: passionate about, what your values are, what are you great at?
Speaker 2: What do you just great at? And you hate doing
Speaker 2: because you don't want to get into that box and
Speaker 2: dream big, Like, if you feel like you really want
Speaker 2: to open up your own flower boutique, then you have
Speaker 2: to put that out there and understand it's not going
Speaker 2: to happen tomorrow. There are steps that you need to take.
Speaker 2: I used to think that you could get from point
Speaker 2: A to Z overnight, but I realized you have to
Speaker 2: do some planning. So my best advice is to a
Speaker 2: go for it and talk to someone about it. Find
Speaker 2: someone that is a career coach or a life coach
Speaker 2: that you trust that can really help you step by step,
Speaker 2: figure out what your dreams are and figure out what
Speaker 2: those sprints are to get to the marathon.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the finish line. The zone of genius work is fun.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 3: What are some of the trends you think are going
Speaker 3: to shape the workplace in the next five years?
Speaker 2: AI, AI, AI, and AI all over the place. You know,
Speaker 2: I work in a creative agency, that's all there. We
Speaker 2: work in HRIS systems, it's already there. Anything that gives
Speaker 2: us more efficiency, I think, and smart to some extent.
Speaker 2: We know that there's all these different chat you know,
Speaker 2: chatchipt or Claude, which is very just strange to say,
Speaker 2: and they're getting more intelligent. The more we use them
Speaker 2: and the more you prompt them, and I, for one,
Speaker 2: love playing with them. It's like a hobby for me now,
Speaker 2: just to see how far I can go. And quite frankly,
Speaker 2: they make me smarter. They make me sound smarter.
Speaker 3: Do you think it can threaten workforce at Vynermedia? Even
Speaker 3: I don't think it.
Speaker 2: Can threaten workforce at Vaynermedia. I think we are going
Speaker 2: to use it to provide more efficiency and to be
Speaker 2: better at our craft. That's what I think, being a
Speaker 2: company that is rooted in people, and we're very proud
Speaker 2: of that. I don't think that there's going to be
Speaker 2: a time where we're going to eliminate twenty jobs because
Speaker 2: Claude Chatchpt can do it better. But I think we
Speaker 2: are going to use it much more frequently.
Speaker 3: You mentioned your book that's coming out soon, Be Yourself
Speaker 3: at Work. Tell us a little about the genesis of
Speaker 3: this As an author, it's not a small feat when
Speaker 3: you take this on, especially you have a big job,
Speaker 3: you have a big personal life, and then you add
Speaker 3: this to it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a challenge that I set for myself
Speaker 2: about ten years ago. I don't know why. It's literally
Speaker 2: like some people said, I'm on a round a Maska
Speaker 2: calling calling. I went through so much imposter syndrome, so
Speaker 2: many days, so many weeks and months, that I put
Speaker 2: it on hold. What do I have to say? That's
Speaker 2: so new. Everyone's talking about vulnerability in the workplace, Everyone's
Speaker 2: saying that stuff. What do I have to say? And
Speaker 2: I realized I live it. It's very different. I'm not
Speaker 2: a philosopher talking about it. I'm not an academic talking
Speaker 2: about it. I'm actually doing it every day and watching
Speaker 2: people be themselves at work and certainly promoting that. So
Speaker 2: that's what it was about for me, which was literally like,
Speaker 2: this is who I am, this is what I have
Speaker 2: to offer. I'm not looking to win any Nobil Peace Prize.
Speaker 2: I just wanted to see if I could do it.
Speaker 2: And it took me five years to do it. It
Speaker 2: was a labor of love, That's all I can say.
Speaker 2: And thank god I had a supportive partner who could
Speaker 2: help and take on the way to the kids and
Speaker 2: all of those things.
Speaker 3: I wish more people knew about what it takes to
Speaker 3: actually write a book. You know, I sacrifices the trade offs,
Speaker 3: the imposter syndrome, the loneliness.
Speaker 2: It's like leadership in many ways. It can be very
Speaker 2: lonely and just doing something that you know is a
Speaker 2: calling to your point and you just have to do it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you just get her done, get or done.
Speaker 3: The title of this podcast is leading by Example, So
Speaker 3: we want to ask you, as we do all of
Speaker 3: our wonderful guests, with your title as Chief Heart Officer.
Speaker 3: This is a significant innovation in executive leadership. We think,
Speaker 3: how does cho embody the idea of leading by example?
Speaker 2: Walking the walk every single day, being accountable for how
Speaker 2: I say I'm going to show up and show up
Speaker 2: that way when I say earlier in this podcast, how
Speaker 2: are you walking into a room? How are you showing
Speaker 2: up every single day? If I show up looking at
Speaker 2: my phone walking into that room, then I should not
Speaker 2: be here.
Speaker 3: Listen. If I've learned anything is I'm never walking into
Speaker 3: a room with my phone in my face, especially if
Speaker 3: you are garrier and thank you. Thank you for that reminder.
Speaker 3: We all need it sometimes. Clode Silver, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Thank you partnersh All right, so here we are post
Speaker 1: Claude Silver interview, and I have my producer here, Ryan,
Speaker 1: who had been listening in the whole time helped us
Speaker 1: actually produce this segment.
Speaker 3: Wonderful questions you had given me for Claude. Thanks so much, Ryan.
Speaker 3: What'd you think?
Speaker 4: I mean, it's impressive having a company as big as
Speaker 4: Vyner and having a role like Claude's. I've never heard
Speaker 4: of anything like it, and yet hearing her explain it,
Speaker 4: it just feels so obvious that you need something, especially
Speaker 4: in sort of a post pandemic world where folks are
Speaker 4: experiencing new things and new ways of working every day
Speaker 4: and things are changing constantly, and to have someone looking
Speaker 4: out for you in a company like that is really impressive.
Speaker 3: It's not an easy job at all, you know. I mean,
Speaker 3: she said she didn't want to do hr. She wanted
Speaker 3: I think a harder job, like she said not to
Speaker 3: be disrespectful to people in human resources. It's an incredibly
Speaker 3: important job. And she would even call it something like
Speaker 3: people and experiences, but that she is taking on so
Speaker 3: much heaviness every day. She may not characterize it as that,
Speaker 3: but I think for the average person, she has a
Speaker 3: skill at empathy and having empathy. It's her superpower, is
Speaker 3: a reason she's in that role, and she's spearheaded that role,
Speaker 3: but man I can help, but think these are big,
Speaker 3: heavy days sometimes for her.
Speaker 4: And I appreciate that a company like that has someone
Speaker 4: in that role who can carry that burden. I think
Speaker 4: that you have to have an extraordinary amount of like
Speaker 4: she's a super power level of emotional intelligence, and to
Speaker 4: be able to share that with the employees in not
Speaker 4: only just share it and carry that burden, but model
Speaker 4: that behavior, I think is going to rub off on
Speaker 4: all the leaders and leaders to be at a place
Speaker 4: like Vayner.
Speaker 3: She had a really cool definition of empathy, which I
Speaker 3: felt was like breaking news a little bit right, because
Speaker 3: she believes it's not just simply stepping into someone else's shoes,
Speaker 3: as though anyone could really.
Speaker 4: It's being a passenger on their journey, which I thought
Speaker 4: was an extraordinary way to put it. I think that
Speaker 4: a lot of times folks confuse empathy for literally feeling
Speaker 4: someone else's feelings, and in this case, it's about awareness,
Speaker 4: and it's about being cognizant of what people are going
Speaker 4: through around you and being able to make changes or
Speaker 4: at least help guide them through those feelings. In a
Speaker 4: complex place like a corporate environment, I mean to be
Speaker 4: able to have these kind of a emotional conversations and
Speaker 4: speak on emotional intelligence, and I really appreciated the way
Speaker 4: she connected it to the idea of Honey versus Empire
Speaker 4: in terms of how they think about Vayner and the
Speaker 4: fact that they can balance these lofty, emotional intelligent conversations
Speaker 4: with still having to make money.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can hold those two things together as you
Speaker 3: are running a company. I think this theme around kindness
Speaker 3: and empathy as someone who is observing what's coming out
Speaker 3: from the publishing world and the thought leadership world, there's
Speaker 3: a growing momentum. This is not a new territory foreclaud
Speaker 3: but I'm hopeful that her philosophies are going to sort
Speaker 3: of catch a tailwind in this moment. There's definitely a
Speaker 3: lot of interest, and she coming at it from the
Speaker 3: perspective of someone, as she described, who walks the walk,
Speaker 3: who's living it. In addition, there are academics, there are
Speaker 3: psychologists and scientists who can add to this and give
Speaker 3: credibility to this. But I'm hopeful that it's just going
Speaker 3: to be I'm a.
Speaker 4: Bigger trend, and I think walking the Walk is so
Speaker 4: important because she talked a lot about culture and the
Speaker 4: fact that culture is created through consistency, and so it's
Speaker 4: not like other companies can just hire a chief Heart
Speaker 4: officer tomorrow and implement these kinds of things. It's a
Speaker 4: culture that was created through consistency and was allowed to
Speaker 4: grow and flourish with someone in leadership a position like Claude.
Speaker 4: And I think that it's about the earnest cultivation of
Speaker 4: this conversation about how we treat our employees and how
Speaker 4: we treat our team members and how we think about
Speaker 4: the people around us, and can grow that in a
Speaker 4: company so it becomes part of their core.
Speaker 3: I also think it's important her background. It wasn't like
Speaker 3: she always knew right that this was going to be
Speaker 3: her role. And she was very candid and said I
Speaker 3: didn't know what was going to happen chief Heart officer aside,
Speaker 3: like I didn't even know what was going to be
Speaker 3: there for me or what I was aspiring to. And
Speaker 3: I kind of love that she was open about that.
Speaker 3: It's a lesson for the those of us who feel
Speaker 3: a little like we're still trying to figure things out,
Speaker 3: we're getting afraid, we're getting nervous, we're getting impatient with
Speaker 3: ourselves that things take time to unfold. You need that
Speaker 3: time for reflection. But she didn't waste time either, right,
Speaker 3: She really invested in her learning. She invested in her experiences,
Speaker 3: travel education. I think that was really important that I
Speaker 3: don't think was just of her time. You know, we
Speaker 3: didn't just do that twenty years ago to figure things out.
Speaker 3: I think that it's still very much applicable today, that
Speaker 3: there is value in slowing your role a little bit
Speaker 3: and investing in yourself and in your community to get
Speaker 3: to where you want to be. Absolutely, it's not a race.
Speaker 3: It's not a rat race, and if you do think
Speaker 3: that way, it's just a race to the bottom, often.
Speaker 4: Completely and I think that shows in the success of
Speaker 4: her work as the chief Heart Officer over there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, audience in fact check us. Are there any other
Speaker 3: Chief Heart officers in companies, at least in the US.
Speaker 3: I don't know. Maybe they're called something different.
Speaker 4: Send them in we'll find out.
Speaker 3: Let us know. Thanks Ryan, that's fun.
Speaker 4: This is a great time.
Speaker 3: Well listeners, I hope you enjoyed this episode as much
Speaker 3: as we did. If you like what you're hearing, please
Speaker 3: follow and subscribes you don't miss out on any new
Speaker 3: episodes and As always, we want to hear your thoughts
Speaker 3: to make this the best show possible, so please leave
Speaker 3: us a review. In the meantime, you can find me
Speaker 3: at Farnoosh Charabi on Instagram and I'm always on the
Speaker 3: So Money podcast. I'll see you next time. This podcast
Speaker 3: is a production of iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio. Our executive producer
Speaker 3: is Matt Stillo and our supervising producer is Nikiah Swinton.
Speaker 3: This podcast was edited by Sierra Spreen.