WEBVTT - The Accused [bonus] 0:00:01.080 --> 0:00:04.480 Monster is back with a brand new series, Monster d 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:08.719 C Sniper. Here's a teaser for the show. While you're listening, 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:13.360 search for Monster DC Sniper and subscribe. New episodes are 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:19.639 available every Thursday. I don't think America has ever gone 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:22.759 back to the way that it was before nine eleven 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:28.040 and the anthrax attacks. The fear was really that there 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:32.280 would be a second wave of attacks, and then along 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:35.760 comes the DC Sniper and all of the country's worst 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:39.120 fears are realized. I think it's fair to say all 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:46.640 help broke this. I don't know. The gunman, most likely 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:49.800 a skilled marksman, fired six times in the courts of 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:53.000 sixteen hours. They killed the five people on one day 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:56.280 and then went on the rampage for the next month. 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:59.360 The police say they have never had a crime quite 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:02.240 like this. It is quite a mystery. It was scary 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:04.160 to go to the grocery store or fill up your 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:07.759 car with gas, and as the DC Sniper case unfolded, 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:14.160 that terror only group from My Heart Radio and tender 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:23.520 Foot TV. This is Monster DC Sniper. The views and 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:26.520 opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:30.039 podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:33.520 not necessarily represent those of I Heeart Media Stuff Media 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:40.319 for its employees. In the spring of the Valeo Police 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:43.560 Department announced it had submitted two pieces of evidence for 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:47.520 DNA testing, two envelopes that once contained letters sent from 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:51.800 the Zodiac Killer to local newspapers. Although similar DNA tests 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:54.840 had been performed in this case with no results, this 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:59.080 attempt was different. The testing method was more advanced, and 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:02.960 if a via DNA sample was produced this time, it 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:07.320 would be used to create a genetic profile for forensic genealogy. 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:11.880 In its simplest form, forensic genealogy maps and individual's DNA 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:16.200 profile and then compares it to other previously existing profiles. 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:19.240 It's a way to build family trees, and it's what 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:22.679 companies like twenty three and me, Ancestry and jed match do. 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:27.160 Forensic genealogy is the method that caught the Golden State Killer, 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:30.480 the man who murdered at least thirteen people and committed 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:35.000 more than fifty rapes. After more than forty years, Joseph 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:39.360 James de'angelo was charged and convicted of his crimes. While 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:42.800 DNA and forensic genealogy was able to close the Golden 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:45.960 State Killer case, it's so far has not been able 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:50.280 to identify the Zodiac Killer, and unfortunately, there hasn't been 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:53.440 an official update from the Valeo Police Department since that 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:58.880 spring of While we hope forensic genealogy will eventually unmask 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:02.760 the Zodiac, for now the trail seems cold. The best 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:07.720 evidence were left with remains circumstantial. Throughout the season, we 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:12.799 examined the people we considered the most likely suspects. Since then, 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:16.280 we've had many listeners calling in with questions about other 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:21.000 individuals that we haven't fully investigated. Today, we're going to 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:29.959 take a closer look at some of those people. A 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:33.520 man in a mask robbed, tied, and stabbed them, leaving 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:37.920 them for dad. Subjects stated, I want to report a murder, 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:42.600 no a double murder. I did it. A man who 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:46.240 wore an evil style executioner's hood, carried a knife and 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:50.640 gun and intended to use them. They have an arrestipe 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:54.840 because they can't cove a m I'm not damn Zodiac. 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:58.560 Who is the Zodiac and where is he? From my 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:03.000 Heart radio and under Foot TV, this is Monster, the 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:08.360 Zodiac Killer. According to an estimate by the Los Angeles Times, 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:11.360 more than twelve hundred people have claimed to know the 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:15.360 Zodiac's identity, but only a few of those claims seem viable. 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:19.479 In two thousand nine, Deborah Perez held a sidewalk conference 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:23.400 claiming that her father, guy Ward Hendrickson, was the Zodiac. 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:26.400 Perez claimed she helped write some of the letters the 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:30.080 Zodiac sent to the media. She also claimed to possess 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:35.280 the glasses of Paul Stein, the Zodiac's last confirmed victim. However, 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:39.479 after inspection, police determined that the glasses were not Paul 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:44.240 Stein's and that guy Ward Hendrickson was not the Zodiac. 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:49.279 Another accusation came from Jack Kaufman, a man who believed 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:53.760 his stepfather, Jack Torrence, was the Zodiac. Kaufman gave police 0:04:53.800 --> 0:04:56.440 a black hood similar to the one the Zodiac war 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:59.960 when he attacked the couple at Lake Berryessa. Kaufman also 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:03.279 gave police a bloody knife resembling the weapon from the 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:06.840 same attack. He claimed that both of these items were 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:11.680 his stepfather's. Additionally, Kaufman provided stamps his stepfather had licked 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:15.200 for DNA testing in hopes the police could finally prove 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:19.360 his suspicions. While both of these accusations caught the attention 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:22.120 of the police and the media, there is one claim 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:27.120 that overshadows the rest, the claim of Gary Stewart. In 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:31.400 May of fourteen, Gary Stewart's book debuted across the United States. 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:35.279 It was called the Most Dangerous Animal of All Searching 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:38.640 for My Father and Finding the Zodiac Killer. The book 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:41.760 was a New York Times and San Francisco Chronicle bestseller. 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:46.159 It follows Stuart's decade long journey to find his biological father. 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:50.080 It began when Stewart's biological mother reached out to him 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:54.000 when he was thirty nine years old. Their reunion was successful, 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:57.039 and Stewart decided he also wanted to meet his father, 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:00.680 Earl Van Best Jr. But he would soon learned that 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:04.000 Earl had a police record for some very serious crimes. 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:08.080 In fact, according to Stewart, the San Francisco Police Department 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:11.240 told him to stop looking for his dad. It wasn't 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:14.120 long after this that Stewart would turn over the first stone, 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:17.880 leading him to believe that Earl Van Best Jr. His father, 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:22.360 was the Zodiac Killer. The clips you're about to hear 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:24.599 are from an interview with Gary Stewart on the I 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:29.200 Heart radio show Rover's Morning Glory, in talking about his 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:33.359 story and his book. One day, I'm watching an Ante 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:37.560 Coal case file special on the Zodiac Killer. The wanted 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:41.520 poster from San Francisco nineteen sixty nine of the Zodiac 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:44.760 Killer pops up on the screen and I can't breathe. 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:48.760 My son, here's whatever noise I make. And he runs 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.640 into the room and he looks at the television. He says, Dad, 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:54.920 it's you. I went in my office and got this 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:57.600 old d m V photo that I've been given by 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.640 the FFPD, which turns out it was his actual mug shot. 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:03.320 And I said, no, Zach's not me, it's my father. 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:07.880 The likeness between Van Best and the police sketch of 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:12.040 the Zodiac suspect was only what started Stuart's theory. Gary 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:15.400 also believes that his father's name appears in the cipher's 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:19.720 the Killer sent to Bay Area newspapers. My father signed 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:23.080 his name E. V. Best Jr. In particular, in the 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:26.280 four oh eight cipher that was mailed to the San 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:30.040 Francisco Examiner. I just looked at it one day to 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:32.800 see if I could see anything, and out off the 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:40.000 page popped E. V. Best Junior altogether in a row backward, 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:44.720 forward and up. After the police did not pick that up. 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:49.200 He later came back and sent the infamous three forty cipher, 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:52.800 which the amateur sleuths in the Zodiac community around the 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:57.920 world say is still unsolved. He insisted that his identity 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:02.320 was in that cipher and my father's name complete name 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:09.920 is in that ciphering. Michael Butterfield, the creator of the 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:16.280 website Zodiac Killer Facts, doesn't agree. These ciphers were constructed 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:21.400 in blocks of seventeen symbols. Gary Stewart found each letter 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:24.880 in his father's name in one of the lines. Now, 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:28.680 normally a cipher is a series of symbols which are 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:33.200 deciphered into other texts, but Gary believed that the actual 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:35.560 text of the cipher was the message that it didn't 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:37.960 need to be deciphered, that you could just read his 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.920 father's name by finding the letters in his father's name 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:44.280 in each one of these lines. Now, of course some 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:47.720 people might find that compelling, but as David ran Shacking, 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:50.640 Zodiac cipher expert, pointed out, you can use the same 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:53.680 method to find many other names, which means that that 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:59.000 cannot be the only solution. Gary also claimed that handwriting 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:01.960 from the zodiac matched his father's handwriting, and this was 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:07.000 based on the notion that several marriage certificates and documents 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.319 from a certain church bore the handwriting of Earl vand Best, 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:13.760 And Gary Stewart hired an expert who came in and 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:16.240 he even wrote a book about how this was the 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:18.679 end of the Zodiac mystery because he had matched the 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:23.480 handwriting to Gary Stewart's father. Now, after that happened, a 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:27.600 Zodiac theorist named micro Delli contacted that church and found 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:30.520 out that the handwriting on those documents does not belong 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:34.560 to Earl band Best. The handwriting was apparently that of 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:38.520 the reverend at this church, So that cast doubt not 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:41.240 only on Gary Stuart's claims, but on the credibility of 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:44.959 his handwriting expert, who had apparently concluded that the handwriting 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:49.719 of three different individuals was all earlband Best. And then, 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:53.000 of course there's the fingerprint pulled from the crime scene 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:57.080 of the Zodiac's last confirmed kill, the murder of Paul Stein. 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:02.680 He basically claims that there's a fingerprint from one of 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:05.680 the Zodiac crime scenes which he claims looks like his 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:09.480 father's fingerprint when it's reversed, Apparently his father had a 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:11.800 scar out of finger and there's some sort of line 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:15.080 on the fingerprint which he believes go insides to the scar, 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:17.640 but of course the police don't think this is a 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:23.480 valid theory. The likeness, the fingerprint, the ciphers, all of 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:27.240 these are common threads throughout many zodiac theories. But there 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:31.360 is one detail that sets Gary Stewart's claims apart. His 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:36.400 biological parents had several connections to the case. The first 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:39.680 connection is to journalist Paul Avery, through a series of 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:43.559 articles published in the San Francisco Chronicle called The ice 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:47.960 Cream Romance. These articles detailed how his parents met and 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:53.720 focused on their significant age difference. In nineteen sixty one 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:56.760 nineteen sixty two, When you're twenty seven and you're running 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:58.880 off with a fourteen year old and the cops catch 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:00.920 you and you just happened in eating in an ice 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:04.600 cream parlor, good journalists are gonna say something like he 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:07.800 found love in an ice cream parlor. Ice cream romances 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:10.760 bitter in. The problem was he was twenty seven and 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:16.000 his young bride was only fourteen. I found out through 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:20.320 contacting the Chronicle and the archivist at the San Francisco 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:24.760 Library that Paul Avery was the author of the ice 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:29.920 Cream romance, the Zodiac Killer came back and targeted Paul 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:37.600 Avery as part of his taunting the media Paul Avery specifically. Basically, 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:40.800 Stewart is claiming that his father, Earl Van Bess Jr. 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:44.080 Wrote the Zodiac letters to Paul Avery because he was 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:47.120 angry with him for writing the ice cream romance articles. 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:51.840 There is currently no evidence that's been made public that 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:55.440 directly links Earl Van Best Jr. To those Zodiac letters. 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:59.360 The second connection to the case is through his mother's 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:03.200 second sent After her marriage with Earl Van Best Jr. 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:07.679 Was annulled, Gary Stewart's mother, Judy Chandler, remarried a man 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:11.280 named Rotea Guildford. He was an inspector with the San 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:15.640 Francisco Police Department and worked on the Zodiac case. Gary 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:19.160 Stewart wanted law enforcement to take his DNA for comparison 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:22.640 against a Zodiac sample. He hoped a partial match would 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:26.760 confirm his theory about his father. However, the San Francisco 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:31.559 Police Department declined to run this test. Stewart believes this 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:35.360 is because of a conflict of interest. My mother believes 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:41.160 that it's because of her late husband's involvement in the 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:46.680 Zodiac case. You know, they're allegedly suspects in the Zodiac case. 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:50.880 If my father happened to be interviewed and cleared because 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:56.920 he was a very intelligent, smooth talking salesman, maybe even 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:02.360 by Rotea Guildford, how would that look. I don't know. 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:07.240 I'm just speculating. Stewart believes that the police refused to 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.360 test his DNA because if there was a match, it 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:13.480 would mean the police had made a mistake if they 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:18.040 had previously cleared Earl Van Best Jr. If true, that 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:22.520 scenario would certainly be embarrassing to the whole department. But 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:26.080 we have to ask ourselves would embarrassment be enough to 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:30.480 stop law enforcement from running those tests and possibly confirming 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:34.520 the Zodiac's identity. It's also important to note that, according 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:38.040 to Butterfield, Judy did not believe her ex husband was 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:42.560 the Zodiac. According to the Zodiac Killer Facts website, Judy 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:47.880 reportedly referred to Stuart's Zodiac claims as fiction. Again, this 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:51.439 is all speculation, but if the evidence didn't match up, 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:55.880 then how did this book gain so much traction. Normally 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:58.600 a book is presented up for review, but this book 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:01.959 was withheld until the day was released, so it came 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.240 out to a lot of fanfare, and of course most 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:08.520 media outlets simply pick up the publicity information put out 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:11.320 by the publishers, so they will just repeat what the 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:14.840 book jacket says the most compelling evidence, you know, that 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:18.480 kind of thing. He went on a media tour, I 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:21.200 believe he was on Fox News and ABC This Morning 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.360 and things like that. He was asked a lot of questions, 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:27.320 but of course no one asked the pertinent questions about 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:31.120 the handwriting, about the fingerprint and other things. But if 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:32.760 you look at the way the book was released, in 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:35.520 the way it was received, it's kind of a harbon 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:37.880 copy of what's happened with other books in the past. 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:41.400 People see the book, they assume it's nonfiction. Then they 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:43.800 repeat what's in the book as if it's fact. And 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:47.440 if you only go by that, Gary Stuart's theory seems 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:50.040 very compelling. It's not until you start to ask some 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:53.080 serious questions and get into the nitty gritty details that 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:56.880 you'll find that there is some serious problems. I think 0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:59.920 that one of the reasons people accepted it so quickly 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:03.040 and why it became so popular, it's because it's a 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:06.240 story that a lot of people like to hear. A 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:09.920 man in search of truth about his own life finds 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.680 his father, and then he finds out horrible secrets about 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:16.320 his father. It's very compelling family drama, but it doesn't 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:25.880 necessarily translate into an actual true crime story. Days after 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.480 this book was released, the theory was already being unraveled 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:33.720 by another theorist, Mike Rodelli. He was the guy who 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:37.960 contacted the church about Van Best's handwriting. He didn't believe 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.400 Gary Stewart's claim about Earl van Best, Jr. Because he 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:44.440 already had his own suspect, a man who ran a 0:15:44.480 --> 0:16:01.880 car dealership in San Francisco. If you're well acquainted with 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:05.480 luxury cars, you may be familiar with this next suspect. 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:09.760 He's responsible for introducing brands like Jaguar and Rolls Royce 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:13.520 to the United States. Although his name now circulates across 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:17.120 zodiac forms, when the book The Hunt for Zodiac was released, 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:22.440 he was simply referred to as Mr. X. More than 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:26.400 twenty years ago, a theorist named Microdelli came up with 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.520 the idea that the Zodiac may have written letters to 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:33.360 the editor at several local newspapers using his real name 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:37.760 or an assumed name, so, Mike Rodelli and others began 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:41.000 checking on the files of the local newspapers in the 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:44.360 Bay area and they came across one letter from a 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:49.240 man named Shell Caballi. This letter apparently referred to children 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:51.840 lying in the streets and was written sometime before the 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:55.800 first Zodiac murders on Lake Herman Road. Prodeli thought this 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:58.840 sounded compelling and he decided to check into this individual. 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:03.800 Very quickly, he discovered that this man lived approximately one 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:07.280 block north of the scene of the Zodiac's last murder 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:10.760 in San Francisco. For people who are familiar with the case, 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.119 they'll know that the killer walked away from the crime 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:16.840 scene and headed off in a direction and was seen 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:20.760 in the vicinity of this man's house. There was the 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:23.000 theory that this man was the killer and that he 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:25.840 had simply gone into his own residence after the murder. 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:29.920 Microdelli became convinced that this might be a serious lead 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:33.879 and began investigating this individual, and over the years he 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:37.000 came up with some points of interest which he believed 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:41.679 implicate this man in the Zodiac crimes. Now, Microdelli has 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:45.240 found some other people, including some investigators, who believed that 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:49.440 he may be onto something. He apparently resembled the composite 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:52.399 sketch of the Zodiac, but then again, there are thousands 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.760 of men who matched that description, especially in the nineteen sixties, 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:59.680 and Microdelli had some other interesting tidbits of what you 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:04.520 might called trivia. Cavali was a car dealer, and the 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:09.040 Zodiac crimes revolved around cars, Prodelli believed that there was 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:13.640 some sort of link there. Cavally also participated in a 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:18.119 race in Riverside, California, where there was a suspected Zodiac murder, 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:20.240 so there was some belief that this might be a 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:22.960 link as well. But at the end of the day, 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:25.560 when you look at the information that Rodelli has presented, 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:29.280 there's not a whole lot there. But let's go back 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:32.320 to the point about Cavalli having lived a block from 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:35.680 where Paul Stein was murdered, because that's the main link 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:41.240 Rodelli's theory hinges on. One of the things that has 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:43.800 been a major problem with this story over the years 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:50.960 is that Microdelli contacted Armand Pelissetti, the police officer who 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:52.760 was the first to arrive at the crime scene in 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:57.320 San Francisco, and he was telling Armand Pellistti about his suspect, 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.640 and apparently Pellisetti was not impressed, and he was looking 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:04.280 for a quick and easy way to make Microdelli go away. 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:09.400 He appears to have told Microdelli that he stopped Cavalli 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:12.200 near the crime scene on the night of the murder, 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:16.920 that he spoke to him and cleared him as a suspect, 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:18.520 and therefore he had nothing to do with it and 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:24.320 Microdelli could just move on now. Cavali himself has denied 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:29.120 being that individual. Cavalli said, I was not stopped that night. 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:31.000 I was not spoken to by the police. I had 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:33.040 nothing to do with that. And he wasn't even sure 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:37.040 that he was in San Francisco that night. He was 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:40.280 being asked about this some decades later, so it's possible 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:43.560 that he could have been mistaken. But when I interviewed 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:47.640 armand Pealisetti myself, I asked him point blank, how did 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:50.280 you know that this was the individual in question that 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:54.760 you talked to that night? He had no recollection of 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:58.240 that specific name, He had no records, and he said, 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:00.919 at best, I think I told the instigators about it 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:07.760 that night. So there's no credible evidence that Cavalli was 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:10.159 at the crime scene that night, or that he was 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:14.720 seen or spoken to by anyone near the crime scene. 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:19.000 And if he was, the timing doesn't seem to support 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:22.399 the version of events as him being the murderer. In 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:24.840 order for him to have been out on the sidewalk 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:28.639 and talking to armand Pealisetti shortly after the murder, he 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:31.560 would have to have run inside his home, changed his clothes, 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:33.639 wipe the blood off his hands and his clothes or 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:36.359 whatever else, and then dashed back outside to beyond the 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:40.240 street in time to meet armand Pealisetti. There's no evidence 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:42.600 to support that claim, and there are many reasons to 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:49.040 doubt it. I interviewed shell Cavali several years before he died, 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:52.159 and he was very friendly. He was very polite, and 0:20:52.200 --> 0:20:54.200 he was very happy to talk to me about this. 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:57.840 He made it clear to me that he was not 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:00.840 the Zodiac, that he didn't even understand and why he 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.680 was suspected in the first place. And then he said, 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:05.560 you know, if I could talk to this person who's 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:08.480 accusing me, I have no doubt that I could disabuse 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:10.480 him of this idea if we could just sit down 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:16.560 and he could get to know me. Here's a clip 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:22.040 of Michael Butterfield's interview with Cavali. Hen he thinks is me? 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:28.119 He does. Unfortunately, it's so silly and so ridiculous. It's 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:32.520 if it wasn't so insulting, it would be laughable, you know. 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:35.760 Christ So my idea, what would you say to him 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:38.840 if you did have him on the off? I don't 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:41.359 know where you get touch goofy idea? Why don't you 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:43.159 come out here and spend a few days with me 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:46.240 and see what kind of a person I am. You know, 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:49.160 I've been in business here for fifty five years. I've 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:52.480 been busy as hell the whole time. I haven't got time. 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:56.359 The only thing I've ever heard of a fly. I 0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:59.440 contacted Mike Rohdelli and I said, Hey, your suspect wants 0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:02.359 to talk to you, and they apparently arranged a meeting 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:05.280 and Microdelli went out to San Francisco to talk to Cavalli. 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:10.080 But that's when things went wrong. Cavally denied being the 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:13.320 man who was stopped on the street that night. According 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:16.600 to Microdelli, at least through his perception of things, that 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:19.840 was just proof that Cavali was lying there. So he 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:23.040 didn't listen to anything that Cavali said. Really after that, 0:22:23.640 --> 0:22:26.600 the evidence indicates that Cavally was probably telling the truth 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:29.200 that he wasn't there that night, but through the eyes 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:32.040 of his accuser, that was just another reason to cast 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:37.359 suspicion on him. In two thousand two, Cavally voluntarily gave 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:40.520 a sample of his DNA to be compared to suspected 0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:45.240 Zodiac data, and that DNA did not match. I just 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:50.320 did the DNA test and the police, my guy, who 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:53.520 was a friend of mine, a retired guy, said it's negative. 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:56.800 Forget it, and that's the end of it. That's all 0:22:56.840 --> 0:22:59.600 I ever heard. The whole thing. Negative. You can forget it, 0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:02.800 and a ship police forgot about me, and and that's it. 0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:08.440 Now there are people who claim that that is not 0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:11.760 really Zodiac DNA, and therefore the fact that it didn't 0:23:11.760 --> 0:23:15.120 match a suspect doesn't mean much. But on the other hand, 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:17.080 you have to look at the fact that this was 0:23:17.160 --> 0:23:20.280 the nineteen sixties. People didn't even know about DNA, and 0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:22.560 they certainly didn't know the extent to which they might 0:23:22.600 --> 0:23:26.840 have possibly left some evidence behind. There is a thing 0:23:26.880 --> 0:23:29.840 called touch DNA where they can find DNA and something 0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:33.160 just because you've touched it. So the fact that cavally 0:23:33.320 --> 0:23:36.960 offered up a sample of his DNA for comparison. Can 0:23:37.000 --> 0:23:41.280 be viewed as exculpatory and if you believe that, you know, 0:23:41.320 --> 0:23:43.879 an innocent person would just say here's my d n A, 0:23:44.000 --> 0:23:46.960 but a guilty person might have more reservations about handing 0:23:46.960 --> 0:23:50.120 over that DNA if he knew that he was guilty. 0:23:51.160 --> 0:23:54.720 In the end, Rudeli couldn't present any significant evidence to 0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:59.440 implicate Cavalli. This is what Butterfield has to say about him. Well, 0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:02.359 he isn't an incredibly interesting person if you look at 0:24:02.400 --> 0:24:05.879 his background. He had an amazing life. He sent me 0:24:05.920 --> 0:24:09.199 a copy of his memoir and I read it. It 0:24:09.320 --> 0:24:13.040 was an incredible story. But he was also very happy 0:24:13.119 --> 0:24:16.000 to talk to people about this and say, hey, I'm 0:24:16.040 --> 0:24:19.600 not the zodiac. After this one all over the internet 0:24:19.640 --> 0:24:21.640 for several years, I think he was maybe a little 0:24:21.640 --> 0:24:23.760 more reluctant to talk about it because he didn't want 0:24:23.760 --> 0:24:26.160 to add Field of the fire. But when he talked 0:24:26.200 --> 0:24:28.600 to me, he was very open and he was very 0:24:28.640 --> 0:24:32.280 surprised that someone could think he was a murderer. I 0:24:32.320 --> 0:24:41.520 couldn't be any more innotentive. Newborn baby died, but speculation 0:24:41.560 --> 0:24:46.040 about him continues. However, just a year before his death, 0:24:46.440 --> 0:24:50.919 another theorist published a book that contained a different, unnamed suspect. 0:24:51.600 --> 0:24:55.320 This time, the cover up in scandal was focused on 0:24:55.359 --> 0:25:14.800 the Valleo Police Department. The next suspect comes from Lyndon Lafferty, 0:25:15.080 --> 0:25:18.040 a longtime Valleo resident who took interest in the case. 0:25:18.600 --> 0:25:23.400 His story, unlike many others, implicated the police. His suspect 0:25:23.600 --> 0:25:27.440 was never named. Still, Lafferty wrote a book about his findings. 0:25:27.960 --> 0:25:33.320 Butterfield explains the main reasons that Lyndon Lafferty thought this 0:25:33.400 --> 0:25:36.000 individual could be the Zodiac was number one, of course, 0:25:36.040 --> 0:25:39.399 that he looked like the infamous composite sketch of the Zodiac. 0:25:39.800 --> 0:25:43.600 He apparently had some military background and some training in codes, 0:25:44.119 --> 0:25:46.520 and there was the theory that he had known one 0:25:46.560 --> 0:25:51.400 of the Zodiac victims, Darlene Barren. Darlene Barren had been 0:25:51.440 --> 0:25:54.240 stalked by a mysterious stranger in the weeks and months 0:25:54.280 --> 0:25:58.520 before she was killed, and some of Darlene's sisters identified 0:25:58.560 --> 0:26:03.440