1 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: Hey, it's Rebecca Greenfield, the host of The Paycheck. Welcome 2 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: to the second installment of our conversation series about women, work, 3 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: money and sexism. A lot of times when women talk 4 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: about this stuff, we do it discreetly over drinks or 5 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,319 Speaker 1: in text messages. We want to change that, and the 6 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: series is our opening moves. Today, we have two more 7 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: conversations for you. First up is the world of competitive poker, 8 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: where the stakes are high and the representation of women 9 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: is of poker players who are professional or men, so 10 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: male dominated, it's like super male dominated. That's Annie Duke 11 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: in the ES as poker was breaking into the mainstream. 12 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: She was one of the only women at the table, 13 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: and she won the World Series of Poker Tournament of 14 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: Champions in two thousand and four. She talks with Maria Knakova, 15 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: a best selling author and journalist who recently put her 16 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:14,119 Speaker 1: writing career on hold to play poker. Within a year, 17 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: she's won more than two hundred thousand dollars at the tables. 18 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,839 Speaker 1: I'm Maria Komakova and I am now a professional poker player, 19 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: part of Team Poker Stars Pro. But I came to 20 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: this because I'm a writer by background and training and 21 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: was writing a book about poker, and then got sucked 22 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: into the world of poker players. I'm Annie Duke, and 23 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: I feel like I have a the mirror image of Maria. 24 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: So I was a poker player for a very long time, 25 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: a professional poker player. I retired in two thousand and 26 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: twelve and became a writer. What actually drew you to poker? 27 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: I doubt that many girls I know that. I definitely 28 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: didn't grow up being like, you know, I want to 29 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: be a poker player when I grow up. So so 30 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: how do how does one go from you pen cognitive 31 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: psychology to deciding, you know what, I'm gonna go to 32 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: Vegas and play professional poker. I think the only way 33 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: I could have ended up being a poker player was 34 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: through total accident. I was just going off to graduate school, 35 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: and I went off to graduate school and I finished 36 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: my five years there, did all of my dissertation work, 37 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: and as I was about to go out for professorships, 38 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: I got really sick. So I ended up in the 39 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: hospital for two weeks. And as you know in academics, 40 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: it's a seasonal job market. So I whipped that year's 41 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: job market, and I had to wait a year. So 42 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: during that year, I was recuperating and I didn't have 43 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: any money, because you know, I was getting my money 44 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: from teaching and from my fellowship, and so now I 45 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: was taking time off. And my brother actually said, well, 46 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 1: you've watched me play poker a lot, why don't you 47 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 1: try playing, And that was the end of that. It's 48 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 1: so funny that you that you describe it that way, 49 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: because the way that I got into poker was also 50 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: having this bad health experience where like I had this 51 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: weird autoimmune condition. No one knew what it was. I 52 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 1: went to all these specialists my body which just covered 53 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: in hives, like sometimes I couldn't even go outside. It 54 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: was awful. It made me kind of realized just how 55 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: little control we have over our lives in the big 56 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: scheme of things. And I was trying to figure out 57 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: what I wanted to do for my next book, and 58 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: I was like, I want to write about luck and 59 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: the role of luck in our lives. How we can 60 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: figure out what we can and can't control, how you 61 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: can learn to maximize the control parts and deal with 62 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: it when when things that you can't control happen. And 63 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: that's that's how I got to the poker World. One 64 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: of the things that I really interested me with Maria 65 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: was our backgrounds were so incredibly similar. So now finding 66 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: this out. We both came to poker because we got sick, 67 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: which is just another little bizarre just been there. When 68 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: I went into poker, I thought, this is something I'm 69 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: gonna do and literally nobody will ever know my name. 70 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: When it did become um a big deal on television, 71 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: which happened right around two thousand three, then being a 72 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: woman actually ended up being a really big advantage. But 73 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: I also feel like being a credential woman was a 74 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: really big advantage. I mean, after all, I did have 75 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: my master so it was this, you know, the double 76 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: ivy league combined with the four children, combined with professional 77 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: poker player that allowed me to really get a leg up. 78 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: But it wasn't something that I could have imagined or 79 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: planned for. I think it does hope to be differentiated, 80 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: that people remember you, and that they're like, oh, well, 81 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: this is the girl who not only went to college, 82 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: you know, she don't went to grad school and she's 83 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: still playing poker right exactly. And then you you obviously 84 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 1: have the most usual story of your church. I'd like 85 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: to apply for the most creative use of a psychology PhD. 86 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: Or get that it's interesting like when there was sort 87 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: of a bright side and a dark side for me 88 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: when I started off as a woman in the game. 89 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:28,919 Speaker 1: So just to give you an idea, um of uh 90 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: poker players who are professional or men. So I mean 91 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: when they talk about male dominated, like male dominated, it's 92 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: like super male dominated. So there's this very interesting thing 93 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 1: about poker, which is that in order for it to 94 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: be fun for people, they have to be playing for 95 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: an amount of money that can hurt them if they lose. 96 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: It's just a fact. If you're paying playing for peanuts, 97 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: nobody cares. Nobody has fun playing the games. So when 98 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: people are losing an amount of money that matters to them, 99 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,160 Speaker 1: you're not necessarily seeing the best versions of them all 100 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: in front of you. So I got called a lot 101 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: of terrible names. I got, you know, proposition. You know, 102 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: if I refused the proposition, I would get called frigid. 103 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 1: I got called the C word all the time. And 104 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: this was, like I'm not kidding, like a daily occurrence. 105 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:16,919 Speaker 1: And what would happen is I would look over to 106 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 1: the floor, who's the guy who's supposed to be like 107 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: keeping control of the game and making sure that things 108 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 1: aren't getting out of hand. And I would be like, hey, 109 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: like this thing just happened, and the response would be, well, 110 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: you can leave. You're like you're here voluntarily, Like why 111 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: do you care? But you came in after I retired, 112 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 1: So I would love to hear, like, what was your 113 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: experience of that? Like, yeah, so some things are the 114 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: same and some things have changed. You still get called 115 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: the poker table um. That is just that's effect of life. 116 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: That's happened to me um, And you do get still 117 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: called frigid, but my favorite is frigid because apparently they 118 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: don't understand the irony of that formulation. What has changed 119 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: is that the best casinos are really trying to do 120 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 1: something about it. So I had something really horrible happened 121 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: to me um at the win Um and I've only 122 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: been propositioned once. Um, that's where it happened, and I 123 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: called over the floor. First of all, the dealer had 124 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: my back. He was like, this happened. This guy has 125 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: been totally out of line for the last hour and 126 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: he just said this to her, and the floor responded 127 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: and said, you know, it's not okay. And we got 128 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: moved to different tables so that I didn't have to 129 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: deal with him anymore. So at least, um, they're they're trying. 130 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: You can't prevent those guys from being um and completely inappropriate, 131 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: but they're they're making an effort. I hope that in 132 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: one version of the future, UM, the guy who propositioned 133 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: me doesn't just get moved tables but gets a penalty. UM. 134 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: So hopefully that day will come and there still aren't 135 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: that many of us, And near the end of the 136 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: day when people are drinking, it can be, it can 137 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: be they're they're emotional, they're losing. Um. They can be 138 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: really really nasty um. And sure they can be nasty 139 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: to men as well, but they're very personally nasty to 140 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: women and in a very like sexualized way. Absolutely. This 141 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: kind of goes back to the what do you have 142 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: control over? And what don't you have control over? And 143 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: I thought, well, I don't really have a lot of 144 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: control over that. And I started to try to think 145 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: about how can I personally exist in this world? How 146 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 1: can I not make this toxic emotionally for me? Number one? 147 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 1: So how can I sort of create a viewpoint where 148 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: I'm okay with this and understanding that this is the 149 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: job that I've chosen to do, and how can I 150 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 1: do it effectively? And then also how can I take 151 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: the fact that people are reacting to me this way 152 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,439 Speaker 1: and use it to my advantage, Because isn't that kind 153 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: of in the end, the best revenge against somebody who's 154 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: thinking about you that way and treating you that way. Um, yeah, 155 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: but you're much more mature. I just got noise canceling headphones. Well, 156 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: we didn't have those way, he didn't have. You know, 157 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: when I started playing, there were no I guess you 158 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: could you could have a walkman that that I say 159 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: that us half jokingly. I did get noise canceling headphones 160 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: in response to one guy. Actually it was a direct 161 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: cause and effect. He kept calling me little girl. And 162 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: that sounds totally you know, that's that's not terrible, but 163 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 1: it just he kept doing it, and he was he 164 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: was very smart. He was a good player, but he 165 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: knew that he was getting to me, and he got 166 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 1: to me and he ended up knocking me out of 167 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: the tournament. And the very next day I went and 168 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: I got noise canceling headphones. And I had never in 169 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: my life bought a pair of expensive headphones, so glad 170 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: I did. It's such a great purchase. The other thing 171 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: that you say, though, is incredibly relevant, which is, you know, 172 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,839 Speaker 1: everyone has emotional biases. Everyone has hot triggers. That's why 173 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 1: they're hot triggers. Everyone gets emotional, especially when you're tired 174 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: and you're stressed and you haven't slept. So there's nothing 175 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: that depletes you quite as much as sleep deprivation. But 176 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: some players like if if it's getting to them, if 177 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: you see that they're lashing out at you, then maybe 178 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: someone else got to them. Then you can be you 179 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: can be the one who observes that and who benefits 180 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: from it. I know, for me, it's hard for me 181 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 1: to feel like someone doesn't like me um, and I 182 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: think that that's more of a problem for women than men, 183 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: and I had to sort of figure out a way 184 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: to get over that. And you know, I would try 185 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: to say to myself and then counsel other people, your 186 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: job at a table is not for someone to like you, 187 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: and your job at a table is not for someone 188 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: to respect you. In fact, that's actually counterproductive. So it's 189 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: better for you if they don't respect you. It's better 190 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: for you if they don't like you. So what I 191 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 1: started saying to myself as a mantra was if I 192 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: had if I had a problem in my life that 193 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: I needed advice on, would I asked this person for advice? 194 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: And obviously someone who's like telling me, oh, oh sweetie, 195 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry I won that pot from you. There's 196 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: a hotel across the streets. You want to go get 197 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: your money back. I'm not ever asking that person for 198 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: any advice, thank you very much. So once I sort 199 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: of talked myself through that, what I realized is that 200 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: if I wouldn't ask them for advice about something important, 201 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: then their opinion is of no interest to me. And 202 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: I think that that actually really helped me to sort 203 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 1: of separate out me not getting emotionally involved, because a 204 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: lot of the power that they have over you in 205 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: those situations is that you get emotionally involved in this situation, 206 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: it starts affecting your play and you you lose. Kind 207 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,479 Speaker 1: of the one way that you can get your vengeance. 208 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: You know that you can sort of avenge your honor, 209 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: which is to actually take their money, and your only 210 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: other choice would be while I'm quitting the game, pokers 211 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: can be very lonely. I mean, you're you know, you 212 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: are by yourself, even though you're always at a table 213 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: with people. It's something where ultimately you have to rely 214 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: on yourself. That's another reason why I actually really like 215 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: the game, because it's a very good analog for what 216 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: happens in life, where ultimately you are self reliant to 217 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: a huge degree, and then you have people keep people 218 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: who can support you along the way. And yet when 219 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 1: you're making those decisions, you know, when you're at that 220 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: table by yourself. You know, I'd love to hear what 221 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: your thoughts are and why there are so few women 222 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: playing poker kids. I'm not I'm not sure that you 223 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: can find a profession where the percentage is actually smaller. Yeah, 224 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: I don't think you can, you know, I mean not, 225 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: I mean outside of like the n b A. But 226 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: that's by definition exactly unless it's definitional. Um, I don't 227 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: think you can. Your um saying NBA is part of 228 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: the answer. So when you do watch pokers on ESPN, 229 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: and it's not like there's a men's league and a 230 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: women's league, thank god, but you see men and so 231 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: it's never across my mind. Oh, I can be a 232 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: professional poker player, it's just unless you're already in the 233 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:46,079 Speaker 1: poker world, it's very rare to even be aware of 234 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: female players. And so one of the reasons that you know, 235 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: I've decided to really commit myself to the game, to 236 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: become a professional, to take a sponsorship from Poker Stars, 237 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: is because I do think it's an incredible game, and 238 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: I do want more or women in it, because I 239 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: think that women make incredible poker players, um and I 240 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: think the game would benefit if there were more women 241 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: in the game. When I think about why they're on 242 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: a lot of women, I think, first of all, there's 243 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: just this huge barry event to entry, which is you 244 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: really do take a lot of abuse, and I think 245 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 1: there's only a certain type of woman who's like no. 246 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: But I love this game so much that I am 247 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: willing to make this trade because it's it's very hard 248 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: to kind of live in that environment where the features 249 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: that you need in order to succeed in the environment 250 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: are considered negative when you're wearing them, but positive when 251 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: the person sitting next to you is wearing them. I 252 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: would hear them talk about my male counterparts using literally 253 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 1: the exact same adjectives, the exact same adjectives, and it 254 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: would be so complimented, he's so ambitious and competitive, intense, 255 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: and look how hyper focused to use and whoa you know, 256 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: And then they would say the same thing about not 257 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: just me, like about any of the women playing, and 258 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: it was really not being said in a nice way 259 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: like oh, she's so competitive, right, and they might they're 260 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: just calling you, is what they're really to Absolutely, and 261 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: I think that's true across a lot of the similar disciplines, business, law, 262 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: just anywhere. Um. The same traits that get you to 263 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: the top are also seen as bad because and then 264 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: prevent you from getting to the real top. Because who 265 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: wants someone who is very competitive and ambitious and female? 266 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: You want someone who's nice, right, exactly like you? Why 267 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: can't you be nicer? Why can't you smile more? Think 268 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: about something else where. We're doing some kind of business 269 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: against each other, we're trading against each other, and it's 270 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: literally you lose to me, and you have to give 271 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: me your money right then. And I think that that 272 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: makes it so much harder because they have to look 273 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: at you and you're a woman, and for a certain 274 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: percentage of man, that's a statement about their masculinity. A 275 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: lot of the things that happen in poker is it's 276 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: making explicit what's implicit in a lot of other areas. 277 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: Everything in life hasn't a element of chance, right, So 278 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: when people are like, oh, but there's a chance in poker, 279 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: well there's chance and everything and poker is just visible, right, 280 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: and poker you can see the chance element. I used 281 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: to say, like, do you really think that there's no 282 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: luck in the things you do? There's luck in taking 283 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: a shower, And then people will laugh and I would say, well, 284 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: when I was growing up, all the plumbing was connected 285 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: in the house, so someone remotely in the house flushed 286 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: the toilet. It affected the temperature of the shower and 287 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: it was really awful. So that's what that was the 288 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: example that I used to give. But it's not that 289 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: you make your own luck. It's that you make your 290 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: own decisions that which then change the probabilities of all 291 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: the different outcomes that could occur. And that's something that 292 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: you get like so comfortable within poker. Some people when 293 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: they say I think you make your own luck, what 294 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: they're really saying is I think you make your own decisions. 295 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: And I wish they would just say that, because I 296 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: think it can be really misunderstood. And then there's other 297 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: people who I think really do believe like you make 298 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: your own luck, um, and it's like, no, that's really 299 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: that's not going to the same people who say luck 300 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: as preparation and opportunity, to which I say, no, that's 301 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: preparation and opportunity, that's not luck. Professional poker is not 302 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: a traditional workplace, yet what Annie and Maria described probably 303 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: sounds at least a little familiar to many working women. 304 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: And that's because no matter the workplace, women are fighting 305 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: for a seat at the table. In poker, there's just 306 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: actually a table, and if you let the bullies win, 307 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: you literally have to give up your seat. Next up, 308 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: we'll hear from two journalists who are also trying to 309 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: make it on their own. Welcome back. Manu Samarodi was 310 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: the host of the popular w my C show Note 311 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 1: to Self, but this year she quit to start her 312 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 1: own company. It's called Stable Genius Productions, and their first 313 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 1: project is a podcast that she hosts called zig Zag. 314 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: She's talking to Rose Eveleth, a freelance journalist who hosts 315 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: her own show flash Forward. They both specialize in reporting 316 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: about science and technology. We're going to pick up with 317 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 1: Rose talking about one of her earliest assignments when she 318 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,439 Speaker 1: was working at the student radio station at n y U. 319 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 1: One of the stories I did was about this project 320 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:50,479 Speaker 1: that a major auto manufacturer was doing, essentially to pump 321 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 1: engine sounds back into the cabin for certain cars, because 322 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 1: today's cars, right, you don't really hear the engine. The 323 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: engine is pretty well insulated, so you don't get that 324 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 1: kind of old school like Revene feeling in your car. 325 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: And so I interviewed the guy behind this project and 326 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 1: I asked him. I was like, you know, as a driver, 327 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 1: like I don't I don't miss that, Like that's not 328 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: that important to me. Like I'm kind of curious, like 329 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: why you are spending all this money on doing this thing. 330 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: And his answer was, well, you're a woman, and so 331 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: you don't really really really know much about cars, So 332 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: let me explain to you, like how important it is 333 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: for men to be able to really hear, you know, 334 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: their car engine, and then to just sort of put 335 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 1: a cherry on top. He was like, also, take for example, 336 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: like you understand vacuums, right, Like if you were using 337 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: a vacuum and you couldn't hear it, it would be weird. Um. 338 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: And then afterwards he started sending me emails with links 339 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: to porn in them, which I suspect wouldn't have happened 340 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: if I was a man. Wow, Wow, what did did 341 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: you respond? No? I didn't respond. I was like, this 342 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: is so clearly just like not even in the realm 343 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: of appropriate. I thought about forwarding it to his employer, 344 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: like the PR people at said large motor company. But 345 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: I didn't do that because the last thing I need 346 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: is aggrieved man who now has a lot of time 347 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: on his hands to come find me. Yeah. No, that 348 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: would not be good. I just finished reading the article 349 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 1: in the New Yorker about pay parody at the BBC, 350 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: and uh, that was really a hard read for me 351 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: because I know all the people who were mentioned in 352 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: that article and I worked with them twenty years ago. 353 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: And I feel like I'm re evaluating all the career 354 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: moves I did or didn't make in the late nineties 355 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: or early oughts based on what has happened with the 356 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,439 Speaker 1: me Too movement, with this movement for pay parody, and I, 357 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,199 Speaker 1: you know, think back like never asking how much I 358 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: would be paid, just being so grateful that I've been 359 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: given that chance or the job, never having a mentor 360 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: who to talk me through any of the financial stuff, 361 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: looking around the foreign news desk at the BBC and 362 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: realizing there was not a single woman who had children 363 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,919 Speaker 1: who also traveled, and that being the reason why I 364 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: decided to come off the road, because I wanted to 365 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: have a family and I just didn't see anyone who 366 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: had managed to do that, and so I thought, you know, well, 367 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 1: that's the choice that you have to make. I want 368 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: to go back and reduce so many conversations or things 369 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: that I did or or also wish that there was 370 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 1: solidarity between the women working together that I see that 371 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: there is now, because there was not. There were The 372 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: sense was there were only a few spots. And get 373 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: your elbows out, ladies. You mentioned that you at the 374 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: time that BBC didn't have like a mentor, a woman 375 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: you could go to. Did you ever find that person? 376 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: I don't know that I ever did find that financial person. 377 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: Do you have that person in your life? I do 378 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: work in a lot of different mediums, so I you know, 379 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: I write print features, I write web features, I like 380 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: do a bunch of things and I also do radio, 381 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: and I'm a freelancer, and so all of that kind 382 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: of makes it slightly harder to find a singular mentor, right, 383 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: I don't have a workplace that I could go look 384 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: for somebody. And then also like, you know, I might 385 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: have someone who is really helpful on the radio front, 386 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: but like can't tell me a single thing about word 387 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: rates for print magazine. You know, I hear all these 388 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 1: people talk about like finding your mentor find your mentor, 389 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: and I'm always like, what, like, how do you find 390 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: that person? You know, It's like it's a little weird, 391 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: and yeah, do you ask, like, hey, will you be 392 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: my mentor? Like that sounds like a really like cheesy, 393 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: weird thing to ask. I have found. And I sort 394 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: of hate that this is the case. Is that the 395 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: most helpful people to me on the finance thing, or 396 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: at least on the in the context of making sure 397 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: that I get paid a fair amount, have been really 398 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: well established men. Because A they're not worried that if 399 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: they tell me how much they make that they're going 400 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: to lose their contract at like na GEO or whatever 401 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: it is, um and be you know, they feel some 402 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: responsibility to kind of help. I would say, I have 403 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 1: had the reverse happen to me, where I've had a 404 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 1: young woman come to me and ask for advice which 405 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: I have offered, and I will tell you what has happened. 406 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: She has gone and gotten the job and never talk 407 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,439 Speaker 1: to me about it again. And that is such bad form. 408 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: If you are going to go to a woman who 409 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: you look to for advice or mentorship and they sit 410 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 1: down and give you the time to think through what 411 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: the best strategy is to get what you want, both 412 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: in terms of potentially flexibility or or salary. It's your 413 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 1: job to report back and to thank them. That has 414 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: really bothered me in the past. So Rose, when you 415 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 1: like are thinking ahead, how far ahead are you thinking? 416 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: Are you thinking like I gotta get like my earnings 417 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: up for two eighteen, or I've got a five year plan, 418 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 1: or in twenty years I will have written three books 419 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: like how do you look at your career going forward? 420 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: It says b. Manuchian big block letters. Um no, UM, 421 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: I wish that'd be great. Um. I have um a 422 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 1: one year plan, a five year plan, and a tenure plan. 423 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: My one year plans generally tend to be um things 424 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: like by the end of this year, I want to 425 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: have written X number of features, published this many things, 426 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: you know, growing the audience, or flash forward to this number. 427 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: Those are kind of more like goals that are specific. 428 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: The five year plan is more general of like, what 429 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: are some big picture ideas or big places I'd like 430 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: to try? And those are more like I would like 431 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 1: to try writing a TV show. And then the tenuere 432 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: plan is really UM imagining. You know, if people know 433 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: who I am, which DVD UM. But if people do 434 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: know who I am in ten years, like, what do 435 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: they think of as like, oh, Roses the person who 436 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: does blank? And so for me, my tenure plan is, 437 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: you know, she's the kind of person who makes these 438 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 1: like weird experimental multimedia projects that are surprising and fun 439 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: and interesting. UM. And that's kind of how I imagine 440 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: the future. But what about much I am very aware 441 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: that happens and it can completely change the way you 442 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: think about your life, which is what has happened to me. 443 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,439 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm about what four months into owning my 444 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 1: own company, I gave up a podcast that I loved, 445 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: loved loved making UM that was doing very well, and 446 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: this thing is happening in real time right now, and 447 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: so it has been an incredible lesson to me to 448 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 1: stop planning and be in the moment because I have 449 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: no choice. But I will say this like I am, 450 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: and I don't want to sound like morbid in any way, 451 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: but like my kids are getting older, they're only thinking 452 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: to be home for like the next decade. It's like, 453 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 1: that's it, that's my time I have with them. But 454 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 1: it's also I'm at the peak I think of my 455 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 1: earning potential and so Plus also my parents are getting older, 456 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,439 Speaker 1: so I feel like I feel a little nervous and 457 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 1: anxious about what I want to achieve, not just for me, 458 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: but from my kids, from my parents. So that I 459 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: feel like I gave this whole life thing all I could. 460 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: I really wanted to have meaning. I really yes, I 461 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: also want to pay our mortgage, and I also don't 462 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: want to have to work till I'm years old, But 463 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 1: the meaning part really really matters. Solidarity is something that 464 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: keeps coming up in these conversations, and it's true it's 465 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 1: been pretty scarce for most professional women. It's not always 466 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: easy to say out loud what you've been taught to 467 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: keep quiet, whether that's harassment or the size of your bonus. 468 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: But then something like me Too comes along, and these 469 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: private conversations women have been having become a lot more public, 470 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: and then we see how powerful speaking up can be. 471 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to another episode of The Paycheck. We're 472 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: back next week with more conversations. If you like our show, 473 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 1: or if there's anything you want to add to the conversation, 474 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: please head on over to Apple Podcasts or where every 475 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: listen to rate, review, and subscribe. This show was edited 476 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 1: by Janet Paskin, produced by topor Foreheads, and hosted by me. 477 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 1: Rebecca Greenfield, I moderated today's conversations. We also had production 478 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: help from Jillian Goodman franchise to Llivi and Liz Smith 479 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 1: Franchise to Levi is Bloomberg's Pet of podcasts.