Speaker 1: All right, everyone, thanks for tuning in. You know you
Speaker 1: don't tune into podcasts. Thanks for downloading the Meat Eater
Speaker 1: podcast we're recording right now. Out of I was thinking,
Speaker 1: this whole area is Phoenix. You guys got it all subdivided.
Speaker 1: It's Phoenix, but it's it's Phoenix about scotts Stale, Greater Phoenix. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're in the Greater Phoenix area, which is great in Scottsdale.
Speaker 1: I'm here with yo. Honestly, tell us who's often with us?
Speaker 1: And before anything happens, I wanna tell Yanna's plug your
Speaker 1: T shirt company. We've done so many podcasts. You never
Speaker 1: plug your T shirt company. Janice has a T shirt company.
Speaker 1: It's called a Hunt to Eat. Go buy. If everyone
Speaker 1: in this who listens to this goes and buys one
Speaker 1: of Yanni's T shirts. Who's a constant presence on the
Speaker 1: media podcast, Yanni will be He'll be rich. Maybe maybe
Speaker 1: give us just like ten days. Oh no, when this
Speaker 1: air is, it's gonna be. That's what I'm doing now. Perfect.
Speaker 1: He's been having printing problems, but don't think that he
Speaker 1: doesn't put out the high s quality T shirt possible.
Speaker 1: Hunt to Eat dot Com hunt eat dot com with
Speaker 1: a two though numerous. Oh. The website is t O
Speaker 1: to eat h U n T t O e A T.
Speaker 1: You go there. He's got different shirts they say hunt
Speaker 1: to eat on him. You buy one. They're not expensive,
Speaker 1: they're cool looking shirts. Yanni gets a bunch of money. Um,
Speaker 1: you get an awesome shirt that says hunt to eat
Speaker 1: on you get different states. You guys still have what
Speaker 1: you have? Colorado pretty slim right now it's Colorado. And
Speaker 1: then we have a generic Hunty. We've got a couple
Speaker 1: of coming down the pipe, so hopefully we'll have them
Speaker 1: out before hunting season. I don't know why I'm out
Speaker 1: selling Joannie on his own T shirt company, but he's
Speaker 1: just go there and get a hunt Eat T shirt.
Speaker 1: I can start talking about that all the time. There
Speaker 1: thing you ought to do before we get too fire
Speaker 1: into this is uh mediator podcast is in many ways,
Speaker 1: it's like it's the offspring in some way of a show.
Speaker 1: There's a TV show, Meat Eater. I'm in it. It's
Speaker 1: on Sportsman Channel and if you want to go just
Speaker 1: get it without having the monkey around with TV. You
Speaker 1: can go to meat Eater dot vh X dot TV
Speaker 1: and downloading stream Meat Eaters until your heart's content. I
Speaker 1: don't know we have. I don't know how many there's
Speaker 1: you know how many we've done sixty some episodes. There's
Speaker 1: six full volumes, six full volumes on there. And put
Speaker 1: in the offer code meat either podcast. You get five
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Speaker 1: So then you put your hunt, eat Yanni Patel's T
Speaker 1: shirt and watch met your episodes. You're saving money, You're
Speaker 1: helping the planet. Um. We're joined by Dark Holburn and
Speaker 1: Jay Scott, two guides that I know who operate down here,
Speaker 1: and you get Colburn and Scott outfitters. If you were
Speaker 1: gonna go on a guided hunt, Um, you this is
Speaker 1: gonna sound like hyperbole. And I'm telling you, like I
Speaker 1: have a vested interest in Yanni's selling a bunch of
Speaker 1: T shirts because I hang out with them all the time.
Speaker 1: I have a vested interest in you downloading me Eatier episodes. Um.
Speaker 1: For for various reasons, I have no vested interest in
Speaker 1: saying that if you were gonna go on a hunt
Speaker 1: and you managed to get Jay and Scott to guide you,
Speaker 1: you're in the best possible shape because they don't do
Speaker 1: it for money. They just do because they like it. Well,
Speaker 1: we do it for money, you guys, they do, they do.
Speaker 1: But once you hear about how these guys operate, it's
Speaker 1: sort of like what they do, you'll realize that it
Speaker 1: goes way beyond that. And UM, give me what you
Speaker 1: guys consider yourselves. A spokesman for Colburn the Scott authors,
Speaker 1: we're gonna get into a lot of things that these
Speaker 1: guys are involved in. I'll do this before you get
Speaker 1: into you're you're involved, and I would say four primary pursuits.
Speaker 1: Google to turkeys in Mexico. M hm. Okay, Now, just
Speaker 1: to give a thing like turkeys in the US. All
Speaker 1: turkeys in the US are regarded as from a genetic standpoint,
Speaker 1: are regarded as one species. Okay, it's like the American
Speaker 1: wild turkey. But wild turkeys are divided up into Rio's,
Speaker 1: Rio Grand turkeys, Miriam's turkeys, Gould's turkeys, um Eastern turkeys,
Speaker 1: Osceola's the Ostiola's are in South Florida, and it's kind
Speaker 1: of the most that's the most dubious subspecies because there's
Speaker 1: no genetic barrier between Eastern turkeys and Osceola is just
Speaker 1: like a line. You just draw a line like basical
Speaker 1: where around Orlando or something. You just like draw a
Speaker 1: line across the state. And we all disagree that that
Speaker 1: it's Osceolas on one side of the line, Eastern is
Speaker 1: on the r side of the line. And there are
Speaker 1: some morphological differences like that they have some the feather, yeah,
Speaker 1: different color tones to them. When you get into the Goulds,
Speaker 1: Rio's and Miriams, you did have real genetic barriers separating
Speaker 1: these different populations out. The hardest one to get by
Speaker 1: far as a ghouls, and the best place to go
Speaker 1: to get a ghouls is in Mexico. And within that,
Speaker 1: the best place to go do it is down with
Speaker 1: the places that the jay hunts, so they do google
Speaker 1: turkeys in Mexico. KU's deer in Mexico and Cou's deer
Speaker 1: are kind of the only real valid subspecies of white tails.
Speaker 1: Then elk in a handful of select units here in Arizona,
Speaker 1: the numbers of which are unit nine, Unit ten, and unite.
Speaker 1: That's Jay Scott talking now. Jay, I'm just trying to
Speaker 1: do a quick wrap up, so let me keep yapping
Speaker 1: from that. I don't mean to like you're the gas
Speaker 1: and I'm doing talking about. I just want to lay
Speaker 1: the groundwork here so you get this thing where that
Speaker 1: you get these like these units. But it's not like
Speaker 1: giving up a secret because it takes forever to draw
Speaker 1: a unit and when we get around to speak to
Speaker 1: that for a minute about what it requires to be
Speaker 1: able to hunt one of those units. The fourth thing
Speaker 1: these guys are involved in is hunting desert big horns.
Speaker 1: That's correct, but only a little teeny bit, like only
Speaker 1: one or two clients every year, right, Yeah, Well, there's
Speaker 1: very few tags for desert bighorn sheep in the state.
Speaker 1: I want to say, there's probably only seventy five tags.
Speaker 1: That's a rough number, and it's very hard, very challenging
Speaker 1: to get the tag, and you know a lot of
Speaker 1: those people don't go guided, but if you do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there are less than I counted it up, and I
Speaker 1: can't remember what I counted. There are less than a
Speaker 1: thousand big horn tags in the US. Sounds about right.
Speaker 1: Way mosty's big horn tags are given now is they're
Speaker 1: given out through a lottery drawing where interested parties, interested
Speaker 1: dudes send their money with an application and they do
Speaker 1: like a lottery, they pull names out of a hat
Speaker 1: and give those guys tags. But there's a couple other ways.
Speaker 1: There's there's two other ways big horn tags. There's two
Speaker 1: other primary ways. Like everything is just gets endlessly complicated,
Speaker 1: but there's two other primary ways of big horn tags
Speaker 1: given out. You give out a big horn tag through
Speaker 1: a raffle where you can buy as many tickets as
Speaker 1: you want for five or ten dollars a piece in
Speaker 1: whatever state you choose to participate in the raffle, and
Speaker 1: then that gives you multiple options and then they draw
Speaker 1: a name out of that and the odds on raffles
Speaker 1: can be dismal. Or they have a thing called a
Speaker 1: Governor's tag or auction tag where to raise money for
Speaker 1: big horn conservation. It's very expect like big horns are
Speaker 1: missing from a lot of their native range. Is very
Speaker 1: expensive to like get big horns and get them where
Speaker 1: you want to give them and make the habitat right
Speaker 1: and protect them and have enforcement and research. And one
Speaker 1: of the ways they pay for all this is they
Speaker 1: sell a tag. Every state, most western states will every
Speaker 1: years sell a big horn tag and that's called the
Speaker 1: Governor's tag or the arc and TEG. And you guys
Speaker 1: have done that we have. We actually three years in
Speaker 1: a row we guided the raffle hunter here in Arizona.
Speaker 1: And the interesting thing in Arizona the raffle tag. You
Speaker 1: can only hunt the nelson I sheep in Arizona. There's
Speaker 1: two types of big horn. There's the Mexicana and there's
Speaker 1: the nelson I. The nelson I primarily are located those
Speaker 1: are both regarded as deserts. Both deserts. There's no distinction
Speaker 1: in like Boone and Crockett are Pope and Young or
Speaker 1: any of the record books. There's no distinction between the two.
Speaker 1: But the nelson I primarily are in the north and
Speaker 1: west part of the state, kind of northwest by Kingman's
Speaker 1: basically the upper center. And um, the raffle hunter can
Speaker 1: hunt nelson I sheep. There's one little section down in
Speaker 1: a unit sixteen A that there are some mexicanas that
Speaker 1: that move back and forth. But for three years darn
Speaker 1: I both guided the raffle hunter, and um, how did
Speaker 1: you find the guy? Like just I just want to
Speaker 1: clear very real quicken. We say the raffle hunter the
Speaker 1: tag in Arizona that was given out to the guy
Speaker 1: that won, like the door prize type raffle thing. But
Speaker 1: how many those raffle takes do they sell? I don't
Speaker 1: know exactly how many they sold. I know that last year,
Speaker 1: when the third year we did it, we harvested the
Speaker 1: largest ram ever shot, not only on the raffle tag,
Speaker 1: but the largest Nelson I ever shot in the state
Speaker 1: of Arizona. Because of that, the following year, when the
Speaker 1: raffle tag sales, I think it raised a hundred and
Speaker 1: sixty hundred seventy thousand dollars, So it does almost as
Speaker 1: good as the governor's are well. And that was the thing.
Speaker 1: I think it brought thirty or thirty five thousand more.
Speaker 1: And I don't want to say it's because we shot
Speaker 1: a big ram, but I mean people too got You
Speaker 1: got people's attention. Yeah, so you got. So go back
Speaker 1: to that year. I guess we're in talk about big
Speaker 1: horns first, because it just came up. Go back to that.
Speaker 1: You're like, how that went down where a raffle guy, like,
Speaker 1: how did you How did the raffle guy come to
Speaker 1: hire you? And what did he hire you to do? Well?
Speaker 1: The first year was Donny Young from Mississippi, and he
Speaker 1: had actually called around and talked to several outfitters and
Speaker 1: talked to both Dar and I and emailed us and
Speaker 1: we sent him photos and such, and he kind of
Speaker 1: interviewed us and he chose us and we actually went
Speaker 1: out on that first year and shot. He got the
Speaker 1: largest ram shot on on the Raffle tag and UM.
Speaker 1: The second year we had UM Larry Spillers from Texas.
Speaker 1: He interviewed us the same thing, interviewed other outfitters and
Speaker 1: UM went out and he got a really nice ram.
Speaker 1: He had just chattered his ankle and I think it's
Speaker 1: his ankle and his foot and stuff. Didn't have screws
Speaker 1: softball and he actually made a great stock even though
Speaker 1: it killed him to get up there and shot a
Speaker 1: really nice ram I think the third largest ever shot. Well.
Speaker 1: Then the third year that we did the tag, Claude
Speaker 1: Warren from Maine, UM called us and hired us pretty
Speaker 1: much pretty quick. And he's a Raffle winner and he's
Speaker 1: from Saco, Maine and just a great guy and and
Speaker 1: he's the one that shot that really giant UM desert
Speaker 1: big horn and Nelson, I, what do you want want
Speaker 1: a guy like that? What do like like? What is
Speaker 1: the package you you bring to someone when he's won
Speaker 1: this thing. He's won this tag, the once in a
Speaker 1: lifetime tag. You're never gonna be able to do something
Speaker 1: like that. Again, what do you guys do to go
Speaker 1: like guide that trip? Like talk about sort of the
Speaker 1: time you spend and how your schedule plays out over
Speaker 1: those months, because that's the thing that's most interesting to me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what's so cool about those tags? As they start um
Speaker 1: August fifteenth and go to August fourteenth of the following year.
Speaker 1: So it's a three sixty day tag. It was a
Speaker 1: normal big oar and tag. Like, there is no normal
Speaker 1: big oar and tags days here thirty days. So if
Speaker 1: you actually drew the tag. The month in December is
Speaker 1: the sheep season here in Arizona. But the raffle guy
Speaker 1: gets a year, he gets a year, and they usually
Speaker 1: find out in July. Um, I want to say mid
Speaker 1: July for the fall for the upcoming year. So he
Speaker 1: knew a month ahead of time that his hunt actually
Speaker 1: started on August. Well, the raffle uh starts on August fifteenth.
Speaker 1: Well obviously here in Arizona, you know, and over by
Speaker 1: Kingman and Lake Havasu in some of these places where
Speaker 1: the Nelson Are. You know, it's a d D eighteen
Speaker 1: hundred twenty degrees out. So what's that country look like? Oh,
Speaker 1: it's it's very beautiful country, but very rugged, um jagged cliffs,
Speaker 1: and and it's pretty desolate, very desolate. I mean a
Speaker 1: lot of times you go out there and you just
Speaker 1: you can't believe that a sheep even or an animal
Speaker 1: could live there. Um but just rock and sand, well
Speaker 1: not as much sand, but granite and rock, and I
Speaker 1: guess there is some sand, you know, real steep, um
Speaker 1: jagged peaks and um, just beautiful country but but inhospitable
Speaker 1: for sure. So you can't do it in August. That's
Speaker 1: the thing. I mean, you know, your hunt starts August five. Hunt.
Speaker 1: But what we try and typically tell those raffle hunters
Speaker 1: is about October is not only a great time to
Speaker 1: go out and see a lot of sheep and the
Speaker 1: Nelson I's typically are rutting really good from like, oh
Speaker 1: the whole month of October and the whole month of
Speaker 1: November they're still running really good. And so all three
Speaker 1: of those hunts we generally hunted from like the fifteenth
Speaker 1: of October to like November. That was kind of the window,
Speaker 1: the thirty day window when we wanted to get our
Speaker 1: hunts done, and that's the main thing, is prior to
Speaker 1: the general season starting. So since they drew a year
Speaker 1: long tag, that's great, but we also like to be
Speaker 1: able to hunt before the general season starts. So you
Speaker 1: know for a fact that you will not see another hunter. Well,
Speaker 1: you won't see another desert cheap hunter. You might see
Speaker 1: some guy hunt deer or whatever. Yea, really hardly ever
Speaker 1: see anybody ever, which makes it awesome because you know,
Speaker 1: the sheep are rutting and there's a lot of them.
Speaker 1: The units we hunt a lot of the fifteen units
Speaker 1: and and such, there's just a lot of rams. I mean,
Speaker 1: we would see sometimes a hundred sheep in a day
Speaker 1: and see you know what rams in a day maybe
Speaker 1: more um and they're running and there's nobody else out there.
Speaker 1: So it's just but I should point out that during
Speaker 1: much of this the hunter is not even out there.
Speaker 1: Well the raffle hunt. Let me back up. Usually Dar
Speaker 1: and I would go and scout for ten days to
Speaker 1: two weeks prior to the season and we would just
Speaker 1: go up there and we would just scout until the
Speaker 1: hunter showed up, and then we would go and hunt
Speaker 1: from there and we you guys camp out and just
Speaker 1: look at rams. Yeah, just evaluate and look at rams, video, photograph. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: it's awesome. They're running around. It's a great time. So
Speaker 1: you just like have a camp set up, get up
Speaker 1: in the morning, go watch wild Boy, wake up, watch
Speaker 1: you just keep it. Tell you what you saw. So
Speaker 1: how many rams during that during that pre hunt period,
Speaker 1: how many rams might you locate? I mean it, I
Speaker 1: would say you could look at fifties, sixty, seventy eight rams, um,
Speaker 1: depending on whether you know you're seeing ten anywhere from
Speaker 1: Let's say you make a big hike and maybe you
Speaker 1: go into country and there's not many sheep. Maybe you
Speaker 1: see seven or eight and you could see thirty. It
Speaker 1: just depends on really where you go. Um. And one
Speaker 1: thing we really try to do is photograph and video
Speaker 1: different rams. So we have a basically a catalog video
Speaker 1: cattory of all the rams characteristics, you know, the flaring ones,
Speaker 1: the ones that curl and tip up, um. So that
Speaker 1: when the hunter gets there, he can go that's the
Speaker 1: one I want to go after. What country was that
Speaker 1: one in? And that that's the one we really like
Speaker 1: do you feel that you find all the rams? Oh?
Speaker 1: Absolutely not, no way. I mean, so there's stuff you
Speaker 1: don't know, ye, even after all that, And I mean
Speaker 1: that that's half the fun of it is having where
Speaker 1: you don't know what's there and what's around the next
Speaker 1: the next you know, bend, and what's up over the
Speaker 1: next hill. I mean, the country's way too rugged to
Speaker 1: feel like you could have inventory of every ram. Now,
Speaker 1: there are certain units in Arizona where after a certain
Speaker 1: amount of time you can probably get a pretty good
Speaker 1: inventory of every ram that's in there. But the sheep
Speaker 1: moved too, so you could I mean you could be
Speaker 1: there for a week and go back a week later
Speaker 1: in some different rams of you know, moved into that area.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like there's big horns in there that
Speaker 1: no one's there? Could feasibly be a big horn in
Speaker 1: there that no one's ever looked at? I doubt it.
Speaker 1: I doubt it too, But I mean you take like
Speaker 1: fIF D where we actually um harvested h two out
Speaker 1: of three of the rams. Well, I guess fifteen D
Speaker 1: south Um the unit got split. But there's you know,
Speaker 1: I think they've surveyed five hundred and some sheep and
Speaker 1: the last survey we were there actually three years in
Speaker 1: a row for their surveys, and I want to say
Speaker 1: they surveyed the mean it's buy a helicopter anywhere between
Speaker 1: four hundred and fifty and I think the last year
Speaker 1: we're there it was close to five hundred and something sheep. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, you're looking at a lot of country, and
Speaker 1: you know, with the raffle tag you can hunt anywhere
Speaker 1: any of those units. So you could basically go from
Speaker 1: you know, the Bill Williams River at the bottom end
Speaker 1: of sixteen A and you could go all the way
Speaker 1: up through the Kaiabab and literally cover hundreds of miles
Speaker 1: of country if you wanted to. Um to back up
Speaker 1: a little bit, the first year we went out there
Speaker 1: and we actually set a camp darnay. Then we actually
Speaker 1: met a guy there in um Golden Valley, Fred Ashurst,
Speaker 1: whose darn eyes now dear friend, and he just basically
Speaker 1: got this awesome property with this house and he's got
Speaker 1: this garage and concrete floors, and he invited us, hey,
Speaker 1: just make base camp out of here. So actually the
Speaker 1: last two years we did the raffle hunt, we just
Speaker 1: stayed at Fred's, which made it great because he actually
Speaker 1: built a shower for us in a bathroom and I
Speaker 1: mean I think the burring our cots out and yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean we're there for you know, anywhere from twenty
Speaker 1: one to you know, thirty days straight and um just
Speaker 1: looking at cheap it's it's great without without get into
Speaker 1: I don't want to get too personally. I don't want
Speaker 1: to get too personal, not personally in like your personal life.
Speaker 1: But how in the world do you build for something
Speaker 1: like that. That's the thing. I mean, you if you
Speaker 1: break it down by per hour, what Dar and I charge.
Speaker 1: I mean we you know, we're doing it because we
Speaker 1: love it, and we're doing it because really that's an
Speaker 1: opportunity to hunt and really look out there and find
Speaker 1: what's the unknown, and basically it covers our expenses to
Speaker 1: be out there. But I remember, like, just to get
Speaker 1: a sense for how much these guys look around. Um,
Speaker 1: I remember conversation that I have with j I think
Speaker 1: when we're hunting goold turkeys of Mexico. I had. I
Speaker 1: was talking about how I've seen while hounting, I've run
Speaker 1: into three mountain lions. And I remember asking Jay if
Speaker 1: he sees many mountain lions and I think at the time,
Speaker 1: I think you said, right now I'm looking for number
Speaker 1: thirty two or something like that, and now it's looking
Speaker 1: for number thirty eight. Well, we saw two down in
Speaker 1: Mexico couster hunting. I actually just saw the one um
Speaker 1: darsa on both. But um, yeah, if you're really have
Speaker 1: a way to measure how much time someone spends. Um,
Speaker 1: if you're if you're like like trying to like quantify
Speaker 1: not just quantity, but quality of hours spent hunting in
Speaker 1: this kind of area, it would be like a good
Speaker 1: way to measure, like, well, how many mountain lions have
Speaker 1: you seen? Because it's like not only is it how
Speaker 1: much you're doing, about how good you're doing it, you know. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I will say that probably of the lions
Speaker 1: that I've seen have been in Mexico maybe, And you
Speaker 1: know it, I've seen a bunch of them, most all
Speaker 1: of them with my binoculars. Um. You know, we're getting
Speaker 1: up on big purchase and looking over tons of country
Speaker 1: and doing it, you know, days on and looking for deer. Um.
Speaker 1: But you know, people think, you know, the lions would
Speaker 1: be hard to see. Most every lion I've seen, I
Speaker 1: mean as soon as you see it, it's just boom,
Speaker 1: that's a lot. And it's not like they're hiding. I
Speaker 1: mean you just see him playing this day there reminds
Speaker 1: me of something that that the writer. There's a really
Speaker 1: good Hunt writer. No one really knows about the guy,
Speaker 1: Duncan Gilchrist. Um, he's got a book Hunt High but
Speaker 1: that he doesn't mean Hunt Stone, he means Hunt the
Speaker 1: High Country. And he's just he's like this really like
Speaker 1: Duncan Gilchrist was sort of like an accidentally good writer.
Speaker 1: I think he accidentally almost wrote like Hemingway, like really
Speaker 1: sparse and kind of beautiful. But he was a timber
Speaker 1: cruiser by trade, but he was a big game guy too,
Speaker 1: and he um in one of his passages he was saying, like,
Speaker 1: all the time you spend he's a airs a lot,
Speaker 1: all the time you spend being like, oh is that
Speaker 1: a bear? You know, He's like, there's never been a
Speaker 1: time when I've seen a bear where I thought, oh
Speaker 1: was that a bear? And had to turn out to
Speaker 1: be a bear. It just is and you know it,
Speaker 1: you know, like a stump don't turn into a bear.
Speaker 1: It's like you're like, there's a bear and that's what
Speaker 1: it's like, I mean, I think dar would agree with lions.
Speaker 1: I mean you just see them in there they are.
Speaker 1: It's just like that's what it is. Man. There's you
Speaker 1: know interesting about Duncan. He was really big into big horns,
Speaker 1: filming them. You heard of this guy he died filming
Speaker 1: big horns. A friend of mine, it's more than an acquaintance. Mind.
Speaker 1: An outdoor writer named Darryl Gadbo was writing a thing
Speaker 1: it was with Duncan when Duncan had a heart attack
Speaker 1: and died. I remember Darryloo said, um, it was like
Speaker 1: he just left, like Duncan just left. And he looked
Speaker 1: at him and said, Duncan, where'd you go? Just like
Speaker 1: was this gone? Yeah? On the mountain films? What a
Speaker 1: way to go? Though? He was, he was big and
Speaker 1: he guys, you guys, if you haven't looked at the stuff,
Speaker 1: you shoul look at it because he's huge into that stuff.
Speaker 1: But when you're so, when you're out like surveying the
Speaker 1: ground for sheep, are you looking at stuffing? A lot
Speaker 1: of guys would maybe miss is it like is it
Speaker 1: hard to find sheep when you're up glass? And for
Speaker 1: him the country can be hard. I mean it can
Speaker 1: be pretty physical. Um, but I think with sheep one
Speaker 1: of the things Jay would probably agree. We don't spend
Speaker 1: all the time sitting in one spot looking. We cover
Speaker 1: a lot of country like glass for a little bit.
Speaker 1: If we don't see something, we're on in the next spot,
Speaker 1: So do not really like who's where? You know, you
Speaker 1: still moved, But you wouldn't sit all day looking. You know,
Speaker 1: at one hillside we look. If we don't see him,
Speaker 1: we're off. So you feel like you can rule out areas.
Speaker 1: Definitely one of the biggest pieces of advice I give
Speaker 1: people all the time on sheep is and and I'm
Speaker 1: notorious Daris too for having tin power. You know, saskis
Speaker 1: around her neck or whatever we're using, and you just
Speaker 1: pop up, you pan it real fast, and a lot
Speaker 1: of times you're going to see them right away. Those
Speaker 1: white butts of the sheep will stick out. And I
Speaker 1: think from acousta mentality, you know, you hike up to
Speaker 1: a high spot and you sit there and you work
Speaker 1: it over in glass meticulously all day. As a sheep hunter,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of the opposite. I go up to a
Speaker 1: high point, I cover it all, I move over a bit,
Speaker 1: I cover this area, I turn around, so I basically
Speaker 1: cover three sixty and maybe I'll do it twice. If
Speaker 1: I don't see him, boom, I'm going over hiking over
Speaker 1: to another high point and do the same thing. But
Speaker 1: because sheep are nomadic and because they move around very
Speaker 1: very much more than any other animal we hunt um moving.
Speaker 1: Because it's such big country, you have to move with
Speaker 1: your eyes and with your feet, and you know, rule
Speaker 1: out country. Move cover the backside, cover the front side,
Speaker 1: go to a whole new area. Because just like unlimited
Speaker 1: amounts of stuff to look, ms will be you know,
Speaker 1: here one day and you know, fifteen miles away two
Speaker 1: days later. The I always say, the worst place to
Speaker 1: look for a bigger m is the last place you saw.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying they won't always cycle back to that
Speaker 1: area at some point in time, but they just they
Speaker 1: just move here and there. They have their nomadic and
Speaker 1: they're not like they're not like a deer I would say,
Speaker 1: where they're hiding from you or laying down there. They're
Speaker 1: just cheep. They're just up moving around and like just said,
Speaker 1: if you see him, you see him. If you don't move,
Speaker 1: they're not hiding from you can't sit deer when they
Speaker 1: when a deer sees you acoust or they'll either hunker
Speaker 1: down or they'll take off running. Cheaper curious animals, and
Speaker 1: they do have that barrier like an antelope, where you
Speaker 1: know you can get four or five hundred yards from them.
Speaker 1: As long as you keep that distance, they're just gonna
Speaker 1: let you. You know, they feel comfortable with that range.
Speaker 1: Do you ever go out and find a big horn?
Speaker 1: You're like, Wow, that's a giant big horns. Some guy
Speaker 1: had love to kill that big horn and then you
Speaker 1: never find him again. Oh, I mean absolutely. As nomadic
Speaker 1: as they are, yeah, I mean they're very hard to
Speaker 1: keep track of. Depending on the country um and their habitat.
Speaker 1: You know, eventually you'll find them again if you look
Speaker 1: for long enough. I mean, so you got a guy,
Speaker 1: just to get back to how this how this whole
Speaker 1: thing plays out. You get a guy, you got a client,
Speaker 1: he's gonna come out and hunt. How many days is
Speaker 1: the guy gonna come out and hunt compared to how
Speaker 1: many days you guys are gonna be out there looking?
Speaker 1: So when he gets there, you know what to show them.
Speaker 1: It depends like on the raffle hunts or the general
Speaker 1: season hunts. You know, we put in usually a minimum
Speaker 1: of you know, a couple of weeks of scouting before
Speaker 1: they get there. On the raffle hunts, we always liked
Speaker 1: our thing is we like to be there like the
Speaker 1: fourteen days before they got there, so that we knew
Speaker 1: immediately what the sheep were doing. You know, scouting a
Speaker 1: month earlier, two months earlier, the sheep are going to
Speaker 1: be completely moved. So it's not like scouting you know
Speaker 1: a deer that's got a home range or an elk
Speaker 1: that has a home range. You know, like I said,
Speaker 1: if you spotted a big round, you're probably better opt
Speaker 1: to go to completely different side of the mountain. So
Speaker 1: we feel like right before the hunt is the most
Speaker 1: important time with sheep to be scouting. And then how
Speaker 1: many sheep might you find? Like you know what the
Speaker 1: guy wants like like like you know the way like
Speaker 1: at this level when someone wants to go on big horns.
Speaker 1: I'm talking to the audience as Jake. At this point,
Speaker 1: when someone's gonna go big horns, they got like a
Speaker 1: they get like a number in their head. You know
Speaker 1: you're gonna do this once, right, and they'll want a
Speaker 1: ram of certain size. So like what's a giant or
Speaker 1: you know, what's the bottoment, Like what would be like
Speaker 1: a big you know, like a big desert big horn
Speaker 1: that everyone would agree is a big, big one. But
Speaker 1: sometimes it's a look thing too, right, It's not always
Speaker 1: just a number. Well, and I can very unit by
Speaker 1: you know, I mean some units don't have what we
Speaker 1: say are big rams and they just never have. And
Speaker 1: but the raffle guy's not gonna go to that unit though, No,
Speaker 1: but big in the raffle units. It's you can't compare
Speaker 1: big in the Rathley unit versus some of the general units. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like years ago, like I think it was two thousand five,
Speaker 1: my brother drew a big horn Rocky Mountain, big orange
Speaker 1: tag in Montana. Now the biggest you know, some of
Speaker 1: the biggest Rocky Mountain big orangs in the country come
Speaker 1: out of Unit six eighty on the Missouri River, Montana.
Speaker 1: He didn't draw one there. He drew one far away
Speaker 1: that you're just you're never gonna get one of those
Speaker 1: rams where he drew ram. So like when we showed
Speaker 1: it to the biologist down there, he's like, well, it's
Speaker 1: a big ram. No way, is that a big ram
Speaker 1: in Unit six eight. It's just like the ring here
Speaker 1: with like the nelson I. Typically the nelson I are
Speaker 1: not near as big as the Mexicans. The Mexicans are
Speaker 1: basically from that same line Bill Bill Williams River to
Speaker 1: the south, you've got western Arizona by Courtside and and
Speaker 1: Yuma and then um, you know, some of the biggest
Speaker 1: rams in the world desert desert cheaper right here out
Speaker 1: of Phoenix and Unit two and twenty four. Right along
Speaker 1: these lakes there's Soro Canyon and Apache Lake and some
Speaker 1: of the biggest, most giant Mexican rams ever be taken
Speaker 1: or come right out of here, just you know, forty
Speaker 1: five minutes from our house here. Um. But you can't
Speaker 1: really compare a Nelson I with the Mexicana. They're separately,
Speaker 1: you know, Like what you were saying. You would show
Speaker 1: what is a big nelson I to someone that hunts Mexicana,
Speaker 1: and they would it's they're just not as big. The
Speaker 1: Mexican rams um are just a bigger ram, bigger base,
Speaker 1: just bigger score wise, even bigger than the big ones
Speaker 1: you guys have gotten. Well, when Claude Warren shot is ram,
Speaker 1: it to give you an idea, growth scored a hundred
Speaker 1: and eighty five and three eights, which that's a giant
Speaker 1: even for Mexican UM. But it was the largest nelson
Speaker 1: I ever shot in the state of Arizona. So you know,
Speaker 1: that's a freak. It was a freak. Normally about a
Speaker 1: hundred and six hundred and seventy in nelson I is
Speaker 1: a really big ram that you've really done something like
Speaker 1: Dars hunter. This year we had a hunter in the
Speaker 1: general season UM and we hunted in the same unit
Speaker 1: where Claude shot hit ram and he actually got a
Speaker 1: really big ram, the biggest nelson I in the state
Speaker 1: of Arizona this year, and it was a hundred and
Speaker 1: seventy five and what four eight's gross And that was
Speaker 1: the biggest nelson I shot, which last year was and
Speaker 1: three eights even our ram this year, UM, Bob O'Connor's
Speaker 1: ram was a giant, but it was you know, it's
Speaker 1: ten inches smaller than Claud's. To give you an idea,
Speaker 1: all right, everyone, I know you're enjoying the Meat Eater
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Speaker 1: your money managed for free. So if you guys didn't
Speaker 1: have a client coming out, would you go down and
Speaker 1: look at all those sheets? Still, I don't know, if
Speaker 1: i'd drive four hours, I'd probably drive out here an
Speaker 1: hour and look at she go way over there, and
Speaker 1: then you can so that when the guy comes out,
Speaker 1: the client comes out, you present him with your findings. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we show him all the pictures in the video and
Speaker 1: and a lot of times, um, we'll be emailing them
Speaker 1: and sending them little snippets of video the whole time
Speaker 1: when he's at home when we're off scouting, and what's
Speaker 1: his take on this? Love it? You know, and they
Speaker 1: start naming round And I think that's one of the
Speaker 1: reasons that we've booked that hunt so much and people
Speaker 1: like us because A talk to the hunters before and
Speaker 1: they're saying, I got emails every day of all the
Speaker 1: rams and they just love it, you know, the documentation.
Speaker 1: It drives them crazy though, because they're back home and
Speaker 1: we're out there looking at cheap But why are they
Speaker 1: back home? Well, they could be out there, but when
Speaker 1: we set aside, like let's because he's not gonna have
Speaker 1: a month that he doesn't. Yeah, so who's got a month.
Speaker 1: We usually set aside two weeks for that hunt, and
Speaker 1: we say, look, if we don't find what you want
Speaker 1: UM in that time framed, and we can always come
Speaker 1: back out and keep hunting UM. But it kills him
Speaker 1: when we're out scouting and sending them pictures or rams
Speaker 1: and and uh, they're at home. So you tell the
Speaker 1: hunter he's still You tell him to come out for
Speaker 1: two weeks. We usually planned two weeks on that hunt. Yes, minimum,
Speaker 1: I mean by that point you know this, this is
Speaker 1: a two prompt question. At that point, you know the
Speaker 1: ram you're gonna look for when the gay gets out there?
Speaker 1: And in square miles how much? How do you know
Speaker 1: where that ram is? Well, what we try and do
Speaker 1: is see where the ram. A lot of times we'll
Speaker 1: watch him and he'll be here, and he'll be here,
Speaker 1: and he'll be here, and he'll be here, and we
Speaker 1: kind of connect the dots that this is the this
Speaker 1: is the mountain range or this, these are the certain
Speaker 1: peaks that we've seen the ram on um. You know
Speaker 1: clouds ram. You know, I I found Claude's ram, Fred
Speaker 1: and I found Claude's ram together, and I saw him
Speaker 1: that day, and I saw him the next morning. And
Speaker 1: then I was scouting ahead of time, ahead of the
Speaker 1: before I was even planning to come scout. You're scouting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was scouting for the scouting trip and we had
Speaker 1: him schedule to come out in November one to hunt
Speaker 1: from the first Well, I found this Ram and I
Speaker 1: brought him back, showed a video of Dar and everything,
Speaker 1: and we started looking and it just started eating on
Speaker 1: us that we need to get up there. So I
Speaker 1: turned around and went up there. Well, I looked for
Speaker 1: fourteen days and we couldn't find Ram. You're kid meat.
Speaker 1: So they're like, well they move around and there they
Speaker 1: cover a lot of country. Did you ever find him again?
Speaker 1: That's the one with shot That was the one the
Speaker 1: day he got killed fourteen days later. Was there for
Speaker 1: fourteen days on that one? Now the hunter showed up
Speaker 1: on um. I think it was his sixth or seventh day, um,
Speaker 1: because we actually bumped his days up. So you had
Speaker 1: seen it. You had seen the Ram, saw it again,
Speaker 1: video him the loss of for fourteen days. Couldn't find
Speaker 1: him for fourteen days? And how hard are you looking
Speaker 1: for it? It's hard? It's darn the only way that
Speaker 1: these two look at the sunk down as if we
Speaker 1: lost our wedding ring out on the side of the hill.
Speaker 1: I mean, like just to give you here, I hunted
Speaker 1: turkeys with these guys. And Jay likes to leave boat
Speaker 1: three am for if it is a very short if
Speaker 1: it's a very short drive on private property, Jay likes
Speaker 1: to leave about three am and get out in the woods.
Speaker 1: And we had camera with us, as we want to do,
Speaker 1: and we had to put tape over a little red
Speaker 1: light that's the size of a pinhead on the camera.
Speaker 1: And then Jay gets what best we described a sort
Speaker 1: of a low disposition against the tree and just sits
Speaker 1: there and doesn't even kind of move until daybreak. I
Speaker 1: think a lot of times you could say what we
Speaker 1: do as a little extreme. But I think the reason
Speaker 1: that darn I had the success we had is we
Speaker 1: try and cover all the bases, and we try and
Speaker 1: leave no stunt stone unturned, and we you know, the
Speaker 1: little things like the light. I mean, I don't want
Speaker 1: to ruin the morning hunt for you because he sees,
Speaker 1: you know, the little was just the controllable stuff. No,
Speaker 1: I totally understand. I'm not like hacking that I understand
Speaker 1: it respected. And it's like there's so many things you
Speaker 1: don't control, like where that ram is gonna wander too,
Speaker 1: Why not have it be that everything you can control
Speaker 1: you just address so that it's only going to be
Speaker 1: the noncontrollable and you never have to be like, oh
Speaker 1: I wish I had You can do that in your
Speaker 1: own way, like I should have gone in that drainage
Speaker 1: and not that drains like you can second guess. I'm
Speaker 1: always But it's not like I wish I hadn't been
Speaker 1: a dumbass, you know, or I wish I hadn't taken
Speaker 1: like a shortcut, or I wish I hadn't decided to
Speaker 1: sleep in a little bit late, and then have it
Speaker 1: be that you know, you're the cause of the problem,
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, I think that's huge. I mean from
Speaker 1: an outfit our standpoint, you know, there's always someone that
Speaker 1: will outwork you, there's always someone that's better than you,
Speaker 1: there's always someone that can spot better and do whatever,
Speaker 1: and so our job is to just try and do
Speaker 1: the absolute best job that we can and be the
Speaker 1: most efficient and most effective that we can, and and
Speaker 1: you know, let the results be what they may it.
Speaker 1: But you you've got to get on every hunt period.
Speaker 1: But you guys have never gotten into um anything that
Speaker 1: like the buzz not a buzz word, but the people
Speaker 1: are was it scalable? Is it scalable? You've never gotten
Speaker 1: into anything that's scalable? What do you mean? Like? Okay,
Speaker 1: the guy becomes the out guide, right, and then one
Speaker 1: day he says, you know what I should do is
Speaker 1: I'll build a lodge and I'll hire ten guides and
Speaker 1: I'll have you know four you guys come through this
Speaker 1: every year and kill out and then we're making real money.
Speaker 1: But you guys do like boutique. Yeah, I mean that's
Speaker 1: a good word for it, is boutique because we've talked
Speaker 1: about it a lot. If you want to make money
Speaker 1: and earn a living, is an outfitter. It's a volume game.
Speaker 1: You gotta do a lot of volume. But when you
Speaker 1: do a lot of volume, you lose control over you know,
Speaker 1: the quality, and who's guiding. I mean, it's not me year,
Speaker 1: it's not Jay, it's somebody else. And it's hard to
Speaker 1: control that out there. Because I should point out that
Speaker 1: you honest to tell us who you're supposed to be.
Speaker 1: You're supposed to be out buying his Hunt to Eat
Speaker 1: t shirts right now? Y honest, who tell us who's
Speaker 1: a producer on UM Media the show? And who's always
Speaker 1: here on these podcasts? Worked never on the big Horn
Speaker 1: end of things, but worked the elk end of things
Speaker 1: with Jay and Dark Colburn Scott. Now I want to
Speaker 1: I want to talk about some of other stuff you
Speaker 1: guys do, but I want to finish up. Tell me
Speaker 1: about tell me the story of We're last year, you
Speaker 1: guys did the like the Governor's tag and and you
Speaker 1: the audience. Remember I was saying that there's like three
Speaker 1: basic ways the big Horn tags get distributed. Where you
Speaker 1: have the general lottery where you're paying application fee and
Speaker 1: send your application one application and you get picked or not.
Speaker 1: Then you have that um raffle where you can buy
Speaker 1: an unlimited number of raffle tickets at five or ten
Speaker 1: blocks apiece, and maybe it's you know, a percent of
Speaker 1: a percent chances of being winning, but you win the tag,
Speaker 1: or you just like got deep pockets and you buy
Speaker 1: the Governor's tag. So after doing after killing these like
Speaker 1: giant rams with these auction guys, the Governor guy comes
Speaker 1: to you on the raffle. You mean and then the governor. Yeah,
Speaker 1: after successfully three years, very successfully doing three raffle guys,
Speaker 1: you get sort of the you know, the crown jewel
Speaker 1: of the governor guy. So tell me how that plays out,
Speaker 1: you know. I think one quick question to just intererget
Speaker 1: actually answer it while you talk here is I do
Speaker 1: want to know is it the crown jewel for you
Speaker 1: when you did get that call? And um, if it's
Speaker 1: all right to say how much that tag went for?
Speaker 1: And so we know how well if he doesn't want
Speaker 1: to say, I'll just look it up my phone. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know that that's actually the tag this year that
Speaker 1: the um the tag went for two hundred thousand UM
Speaker 1: the year last season when we guided the tag, it
Speaker 1: went for a hundred and eighty thousand. Now, the beauty
Speaker 1: of that is all of that money goes to our
Speaker 1: sheep in our state. It stays here and goes into
Speaker 1: you know, conservation and building water water for the sheep
Speaker 1: and transplanting and helicopter surveys, and it's earmarked. That money
Speaker 1: is earmarked specifically four sheep, which is great. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: it is and I support you know, I mean, it
Speaker 1: doesn't really matter what I think. But as far as
Speaker 1: the grand scheme of things goes. But like I support
Speaker 1: the thing. But the paradox and and everyone admiss this
Speaker 1: is we have like our country. The reason our country
Speaker 1: has such phenomenal hunting opportunities and such phenomenal wildlife despite
Speaker 1: of the fact of a huge population and technologic you know,
Speaker 1: technological advanced and all that, we have like wonderful wildlife,
Speaker 1: wonderful hunting because we have what's called the North American
Speaker 1: model of wildlife conversation conservation. And people often criticize that
Speaker 1: term like it just makes people fall asleep hearing someone
Speaker 1: say North American model of wildlife conservation. But what it
Speaker 1: means is wildlfe's help in public trust. The reason you
Speaker 1: do a lottery to get a big oarng tag is
Speaker 1: no one has any more right to the big horns
Speaker 1: is anyone else. And you are democratically allocating big orang
Speaker 1: tags the governor's tag. When it's criticized, it's criticized on
Speaker 1: on those grounds, meaning you're throwing out this idea of
Speaker 1: like democratic wildlife, of publicly owned wildlife and making it
Speaker 1: a commodity that goes to the highest bidder. But you
Speaker 1: gotta keep in mind too, sort of how many tags
Speaker 1: we're talking about, Like you might have a state that
Speaker 1: issues several hundred big horn tags. They do one for
Speaker 1: the governor's auction, and there's the issue of the fact
Speaker 1: that that money and they can pull some out for
Speaker 1: administrative purposes. But I think it's like in the ninety
Speaker 1: percentage points of that money goes on the ground. Okay,
Speaker 1: So you could hit and it happens every year in
Speaker 1: every state. People hit big horns with cars. Right, It's
Speaker 1: like one big horn isn't necessarily it's not like one
Speaker 1: big horn is of vital importance to the population of
Speaker 1: big horn. We're not talking about bigfoots here. We're talking
Speaker 1: about big horns, right, Like you can kill a big horn.
Speaker 1: It doesn't have any especially an old male, has no
Speaker 1: real difference on how many sheep are gonna be living
Speaker 1: in that state. Okay, So it's not like you're like
Speaker 1: giving this the guy some finite resource that he's now
Speaker 1: going to remove, and it's no more. You're killing a
Speaker 1: big horn, one of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of
Speaker 1: big horns that live around here, and it's a bunch
Speaker 1: of money. But I'm but I am sympathetic to the
Speaker 1: criticism of it. Like I understand where the criticism is
Speaker 1: coming from. If you paid me to like advocate on
Speaker 1: that behalf, I could make a pretty impassioned argument against
Speaker 1: governor's tags, But I could make a better one in
Speaker 1: favor of him as it's currently run. Because this kind
Speaker 1: of stuff is expensive. Man. They shot out big horns
Speaker 1: off most of their range in the US, shooting him
Speaker 1: for meat for whatever reason. And it's not like you
Speaker 1: don't just like wave a magic wand and get all
Speaker 1: those big horns put back where you want them. It
Speaker 1: takes tons of time, tons of resources. So as you
Speaker 1: guys get this guy, he calls up. He bought the
Speaker 1: big he got bought the Governor's tag for two. Oh
Speaker 1: he paid this year's tag paid two And how's that
Speaker 1: conversation go? You know, darn and I have talked long
Speaker 1: and hard about wanting to have the Governor's tag for
Speaker 1: desert big horn sheep, and you know, it's it's an
Speaker 1: honor to be able to guide that tag. And I
Speaker 1: always looked at it, as you know, because a lot
Speaker 1: of the scouting some of the biggest rams in Arizona
Speaker 1: right here forty five minutes, you know, from our house,
Speaker 1: and um, it was something that I've always wanted to do.
Speaker 1: And I would say I had just an incredible time.
Speaker 1: We had an incredible time scouting. I think we each
Speaker 1: had forty days individually into scouting, and um, you know,
Speaker 1: we we saw some incredible country, We found some incredible,
Speaker 1: beautiful rams, and you know, I think it was everything
Speaker 1: as a guide that I wanted to do. Um, it
Speaker 1: was just awesome to be out there basically photographing and
Speaker 1: videoing and filming these rams and nobody really was else around,
Speaker 1: and UM, it was awesome. We found You know, if
Speaker 1: you're familiar with the scoring system, I mean we found
Speaker 1: seven rams that we thought were between a hundred and
Speaker 1: eighty and a hundred and eighty four inches our target
Speaker 1: ram score wise for the hunter wanted a hundred and
Speaker 1: eighty five inch ram. And you can tell your you
Speaker 1: can tell me the difference between No, but what I
Speaker 1: can tell you is, um, there were no rams that
Speaker 1: we had found prior to the general season that we're
Speaker 1: definitively over. There was a seven of them, uh, two
Speaker 1: of which got killed. There were seven that we thought
Speaker 1: were between that hundred and eighty two hundred and eighty
Speaker 1: four inch range. Now the two got killed, did they
Speaker 1: prove you right or wrong? Um? I think both the
Speaker 1: two that got killed. I think Darren and I were
Speaker 1: both under We thought they were smaller. You guys are conservative,
Speaker 1: not the other way. I always like to be. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The worst thing that Darren I could ever in our
Speaker 1: mind is the over on the score, the thing that
Speaker 1: would crush me most as if I overestimate. And it's
Speaker 1: happened before on animals over the last twenty years or
Speaker 1: whatever doing this, but it's it's one of those things
Speaker 1: that I never want to be over ever. That's you know,
Speaker 1: that's part of credibility, and that's part of um. You know,
Speaker 1: darn I like to be credible and we like to
Speaker 1: make sure that if we tell somebody something that that's
Speaker 1: what it is. And you found so you found seven
Speaker 1: rams that were in this area. Of four, we didn't
Speaker 1: find any that were one what we thought. Two of
Speaker 1: those got killed by other hunters too on the general
Speaker 1: seas on the general season, because the general season starts
Speaker 1: December one and it usually runs the whole month of December.
Speaker 1: So just like in the raffles situation, we wanted to
Speaker 1: hunt and be done before the general season. This is
Speaker 1: a little bit different though, And our conversations before the
Speaker 1: general season with with the hunter um and his representative
Speaker 1: was we have not found what you want that we
Speaker 1: could say definitively we and and you know, of the seven,
Speaker 1: we probably could have went out with them and killed
Speaker 1: any one of the seven pretty much any at any time.
Speaker 1: Um Or put an effort in to find that ram,
Speaker 1: and okay, let's go get him. Um any you know,
Speaker 1: the hunter was like, well, what do you think? And
Speaker 1: we said, well, you've said from the beginning you want
Speaker 1: you know five or better. You know that in two
Speaker 1: thousand and twelve, um I helped the hunter that had
Speaker 1: killed a hundred and eighty six you know intr Ram
Speaker 1: and and the Raffle Ram. The year before Claud's round
Speaker 1: was five and three, and you know, we felt like
Speaker 1: there was probably a ram out there that was bigger.
Speaker 1: We didn't know of any but we had all year
Speaker 1: to look for that ram. Did other guys know of one? It?
Speaker 1: I mean, it's hard to say. I mean, obviously we're
Speaker 1: not privy to some of the scores and stuff that
Speaker 1: that other people and and we certainly don't ever want
Speaker 1: to say that we know every ram in the state
Speaker 1: at all. Well, and the other thing we talked about
Speaker 1: is there was only so many tags in that area
Speaker 1: where we were looking. They couldn't kill all those rams
Speaker 1: in the general hunt, even all the even if everyone
Speaker 1: killed one of the giants that would we still would
Speaker 1: have some rams that if we didn't find something else,
Speaker 1: we could potentially go hunt after this general hunt, and
Speaker 1: we could hunt through the general hunt. You know, his
Speaker 1: tag was ever bit as good as any one of
Speaker 1: the general season tags. He can hunt in basically any
Speaker 1: of the units. But then he would have you know, February, March, April, May, June, July,
Speaker 1: and half of August, which the desert big Horn in
Speaker 1: this area where the Mexicans are, they typically rut in
Speaker 1: June and July and the first part of August. So
Speaker 1: you know, we were going to be probably the first
Speaker 1: auction tag to ever hunt during the rut, and the
Speaker 1: first auction would be the first auction guy that actually
Speaker 1: waited that long, that actually waited that long. So from
Speaker 1: our perspective, why do they want so different than the
Speaker 1: other ones in the same him state. Yet some sheet
Speaker 1: that wrought October November and you get the sheet are
Speaker 1: rutting late summer. You know, it's like, why did the
Speaker 1: brown trout you know, feed in this time in the rain?
Speaker 1: You know, it's just it's just the way it is. Um.
Speaker 1: So we knew that we had a great opportunity if if,
Speaker 1: even if we didn't kill before the general season, that
Speaker 1: you know, we had tons of time to find, you know,
Speaker 1: a true giant. And if we didn't, you know, we
Speaker 1: we would have taken the chance and hunted the whole
Speaker 1: year and to try and find that monster of a lifetime.
Speaker 1: And if not, he were pretty confident that you know,
Speaker 1: he could shoot a you know, a ram around a
Speaker 1: hundred and eighty inches with you know, two weeks to go,
Speaker 1: three weeks to go in the season. So we're thinking
Speaker 1: we shouldn't settle now when we could settle at the
Speaker 1: end in Yeah, And I mean the hunter Will asked specifically,
Speaker 1: is like, what would you do? And I said, well,
Speaker 1: if I had your tag and I wanted to kill
Speaker 1: a ram over five, if we haven't found one, that's over,
Speaker 1: let's keep looking. We have all years. Did you ever
Speaker 1: started to worry that there wasn't one in existence in
Speaker 1: the state? Oh, I mean, I think it's not a worry,
Speaker 1: But I think that's what motivates you to go out
Speaker 1: every day, is to try and find it, because oh, absolutely,
Speaker 1: it's absolutely plausible that there's not over O. But my
Speaker 1: thing is with this tag, why not exhaust every possible
Speaker 1: resource and if there's not, you don't find one, you
Speaker 1: gave it a great shot, and within let's say the
Speaker 1: last thirty days of the hunt, you could probably go
Speaker 1: out and still kill the tremendous ram. Yeah, and you'd
Speaker 1: spend all that time in the field looking at yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, the the amazing photographs and video that Darren
Speaker 1: I were able to capture was is awesome and we'll
Speaker 1: always have that. And we learned so much from it too.
Speaker 1: I mean there's parts of the unit that we learned
Speaker 1: now that you know that we didn't hadn't gone in
Speaker 1: that now we know really well and um, you know it.
Speaker 1: It's nobody would do us unless they loved it. You know,
Speaker 1: you gotta love it to want to be good at
Speaker 1: this and to do it. I mean, if you don't
Speaker 1: have a passion for it, you don't stand a chance.
Speaker 1: I mean, you can go out and shoot a ram,
Speaker 1: but you have to really and there's a handful of
Speaker 1: guys that really love it. There are from from This
Speaker 1: is something you never you'll never be able to answer
Speaker 1: because because you're honest, but you're tactful at least enough
Speaker 1: to survive. How could it not be that? Like, just
Speaker 1: hearing this for me, I'm just curious, how what goes
Speaker 1: on in your head with it? How can you not
Speaker 1: think after a while that it would be like, no,
Speaker 1: I killed that ramp, Like I'm the one that was
Speaker 1: out there. I covered all the ground, I went all
Speaker 1: the miles, I found the thing. I showed you where
Speaker 1: it is. And then one might say, one could argue,
Speaker 1: he just shows up and pulls the trigger. I mean,
Speaker 1: how does do what I mean Like, I'm not saying
Speaker 1: I'm not criticizing what he did. Like he's doing his
Speaker 1: own thing, and he's in the law, he's he's does
Speaker 1: right by you. Everybody's happy. But in your head do
Speaker 1: you wind up how do you how do you wind
Speaker 1: up feeling glad for him and not kind of like
Speaker 1: and not kind of like territorial about the family. Are
Speaker 1: you talking the specifically the auction text? And yeah, like
Speaker 1: I think anyone who's not out there, like if the
Speaker 1: guy said no, I'm gonna be right there with you, man, like,
Speaker 1: if you stop fast, you're gonna feel me bump into you,
Speaker 1: because I'm in this. I want to do this. I
Speaker 1: want to learn what you guys know, but to have
Speaker 1: be that you do all that and then a guy
Speaker 1: comes out and shoots the thing, I'm not. I'most not
Speaker 1: be as big of a guy as you guys are
Speaker 1: emotionally or psychologically, because I would want up being like,
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm not gonna show you where the
Speaker 1: sheep is, because if you really wanted to know you here, well,
Speaker 1: I would feel that way about it. I certainly think
Speaker 1: and dark and speak for himself, but I certainly do
Speaker 1: like taking hunters that want to go scouting and want
Speaker 1: to be there forever re experience. And let's face it, though,
Speaker 1: I mean, I can argue both sides of the auction tag.
Speaker 1: I can argue both sides very well. Um Our state
Speaker 1: relies on this money and quite frankly, the general Joe blow,
Speaker 1: as much as I love them, they're not going to
Speaker 1: show out of their pocket five bucks. They just it's
Speaker 1: just and and we need the money. And so I'm
Speaker 1: absolutely four auction tags, you know. Yeah, And to get
Speaker 1: get to your question. I think when we decide that
Speaker 1: we're gonna be Colburn and Scott Outfitters and we're gonna
Speaker 1: be guides and we're gonna do this, I think you
Speaker 1: have to take a level of professionalism in the field
Speaker 1: that says I've been hired to do a job, and
Speaker 1: my job is to sweat. My job is to get
Speaker 1: you know, struck by rattlesnakes. My job is to do
Speaker 1: whatever it takes, you know, have the boat breakdown, my
Speaker 1: you know, change flat tires like we did out on
Speaker 1: the sixty and and that's my job, and nobody hears
Speaker 1: about that stuff. My job is to find. Our job
Speaker 1: is to find the client the biggest ram possible and
Speaker 1: have them have the best hunt that they can possibly have.
Speaker 1: I think part of our goal on our general season
Speaker 1: hunts is we want to Yes, we want a great trophy,
Speaker 1: but more than anything, we want the great experience. We
Speaker 1: never want a hunter to leave thinking that they just
Speaker 1: came out, pulled the trigger and they were done. Most
Speaker 1: all the hunters that we ever hunt with, with all
Speaker 1: the different species, they text us, they email us, they
Speaker 1: call us, they invite us to their house. We're friends
Speaker 1: with them. And we build that bond in relationship. So
Speaker 1: I certainly don't want this whole conversation to be taken it.
Speaker 1: It's all around the trophy. To us, it's more about
Speaker 1: the experience. But yeah, I mean, is it feasible to
Speaker 1: think that you could go through all this work, you know,
Speaker 1: a hundred and ten degrees and you're out there hiking
Speaker 1: up and down peaks and you know, sleeping with the
Speaker 1: you know, the fleas biting near years all night, and
Speaker 1: you know all that stuff that we do. But that's
Speaker 1: also the job we chose. I think at some point
Speaker 1: that's your duty and you just do it. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: think the only thing that I can see how I
Speaker 1: would feel about it is that it facilitates you being
Speaker 1: able to do something that people would only dream of doing.
Speaker 1: I think the people here's what it is. I think
Speaker 1: people think they I think people think they wish they
Speaker 1: did what you guys did. They think, yeah, until they did,
Speaker 1: until they steve. What I was gonna say too, is
Speaker 1: most hunters, like Jay said, we're become lifelong friends with
Speaker 1: and then you get the person, you know, our sheep
Speaker 1: hunter from this December, he shoots an unbelievable ram he
Speaker 1: never once mentioned score prior to the hunt, and he
Speaker 1: gave me a hug as he was leaving with his
Speaker 1: family there and broke into tears and was just like,
Speaker 1: thank you for this unbelievable experience. It was, you know,
Speaker 1: more than I could have ever imagined. So, I mean,
Speaker 1: that's pretty special. You know, it's more than money at
Speaker 1: that point and the size of a ram. It's it's
Speaker 1: a bonding, you know, life experience you've just shared with
Speaker 1: this person. These there are guys out guides out there
Speaker 1: that all of us have run across that aren't nearly
Speaker 1: as professional as YouTube, and they're probably out of the
Speaker 1: realm of you know, the public eye. They do walk
Speaker 1: around boasting a little bit, how probably, and they take
Speaker 1: it into possession as in how much they've killed, talking
Speaker 1: about what their clients have killed. Well, I agree with you,
Speaker 1: but I and certainly I don't want to come across
Speaker 1: as someone that's saying that, darn, I don't have pride
Speaker 1: and don't have our own egos. We all want to
Speaker 1: kill the biggest challenge. I mean, we want to kill
Speaker 1: the biggest thing on the mountain, um because it's a
Speaker 1: once in a lifetime deal. But I think we have
Speaker 1: to always check our own egos and and and you
Speaker 1: know kind of humbly approached this because you know we're
Speaker 1: not perfect by buy any stretch of the imagination. You know,
Speaker 1: it's funny about what else saying you're about sort of
Speaker 1: like who did it? Like whose possession it is? Talk
Speaker 1: like when you talk with guys they have a lot
Speaker 1: of friends that hunt a lot, and like I know,
Speaker 1: you know we know guides, and you know many of
Speaker 1: my friends having guides. So when we talked about like
Speaker 1: when you honest tell me what he's always tell me
Speaker 1: what you guys are out to, because he's in touch
Speaker 1: at the all time. Johannest would never say, um, yeah,
Speaker 1: Ja and Dar's client did whatever. It would be Ja
Speaker 1: and dhar as like those somehow you guys are both
Speaker 1: like sharing you each got your finger on the trigger.
Speaker 1: It's like Jay and Dark killed blank you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. It's like it never like hearing it, no
Speaker 1: insults your clients hearing it, and never even enters into
Speaker 1: my head that it's something other. I just like here
Speaker 1: and I'm like that they did this thing, you know,
Speaker 1: and granted like for sure you have like someone there
Speaker 1: and you're doing your job. But like in my from
Speaker 1: like when I hear it, that's just like, honestly what
Speaker 1: I hear, I don't picture you got as like joint
Speaker 1: doing it. But his picture is so like. But that's
Speaker 1: the thing. We get to go the whole experience and
Speaker 1: do it all. We just don't get to take it home.
Speaker 1: I mean we get to go on a sheep hunt
Speaker 1: every year, which is amazing. Do you guys go years
Speaker 1: without hunting personally? Oh? Personally yeah, yeah, a long long time. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I think speaking to that, you know, when darn
Speaker 1: I started, even before we started guiding a lot, I
Speaker 1: mean we've always kind of guided, but um, darn I
Speaker 1: hunted together for all sorts of animals and um, you know,
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that our own tags together.
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that made us very
Speaker 1: effective is we always acted as a team. And there's
Speaker 1: numerous trophies that that um Dar shot um that you know,
Speaker 1: I'm as happy about him shooting that trophy as if
Speaker 1: I am. And people say, oh, that's not true, but dude,
Speaker 1: I can I can beg you man, Like when I hunted,
Speaker 1: like the handful of times I hunting dollar sheep as
Speaker 1: al as building my brothers, and it's like it doesn't
Speaker 1: you you don't talk about it. Is that we you know,
Speaker 1: you guy smell with the mountain saying like we got
Speaker 1: a ramp. Yeah, and that's the same thing. That's the same.
Speaker 1: What do you guys get like, oh, we got a ramp.
Speaker 1: And that's the same thing with guiding. So we've taken
Speaker 1: that same mentality into guiding. And you know, with with
Speaker 1: the coustre hunting and the mule there and the elk
Speaker 1: and turkeys and whatever, we just darn I operate. We
Speaker 1: we know how each other, we know how we act,
Speaker 1: we know how when one person you knows may get frustrated,
Speaker 1: we know how, we know how to read each other,
Speaker 1: and we work almost as one um. And people that
Speaker 1: hunt with us, they say that they're like, you guys
Speaker 1: are unbelievable because he knows what you're thinking. You know
Speaker 1: what he's thinking. And I think that's we've become pretty
Speaker 1: effective that way. And I think we took that into
Speaker 1: the guiding and we're able to produce, you know, very
Speaker 1: well because we worked as one team and and um,
Speaker 1: you guys meet in the first place, it wasn't like
Speaker 1: a fly fishing shop fly shop. So he was I
Speaker 1: think in n I believe maybe nine four so twenty
Speaker 1: years ago. I actually had a doctor friend that owned
Speaker 1: the fly shop and I remember walking in and there
Speaker 1: was this kid up on this ladder and he was stocking.
Speaker 1: Actually were moving the fly shop to a new fly shop,
Speaker 1: and I came in and he'll tell you his impressions.
Speaker 1: But um, a little later that day he was like,
Speaker 1: so you hunt And I said yeah, And he says,
Speaker 1: do you bow hunt? And I said yeah. And I
Speaker 1: think ever since those words were uttered, we've been lifelong friends.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. And then the owners of the flashop left
Speaker 1: for the summer, so left he and I in charge,
Speaker 1: which I can actually remember one time on a Saturday
Speaker 1: morning getting a I don't even know if we had
Speaker 1: cell phones back then, but to make a long story short,
Speaker 1: any anyway, I called into dark because I'm like an
Speaker 1: hour late, and he's like, where are you. I'm like,
Speaker 1: all being I think I had overslept or something, but
Speaker 1: he was my boss. So after all that, how are
Speaker 1: we do? How much time we've been? Yeah before, we're
Speaker 1: at an hour? Right now the good time to take
Speaker 1: just a quick break, take a quick break, be right back.
Speaker 1: So after you guys met, like you guys meet at
Speaker 1: a fly shop, how did it go when you started
Speaker 1: bowl hunting together? Should be like your guide in Desert
Speaker 1: big horn hunts well in it was two thousand one,
Speaker 1: but at this point needed you have guided hunting? No,
Speaker 1: I had a guide fly since I think in Night.
Speaker 1: I think Night was the first year that I had
Speaker 1: a guide's license. After you guys met, correct after yes? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: Jay started guiding some hunts um late nineties for what
Speaker 1: Elk right, Elk and Cou's deer um down in Mexico
Speaker 1: kind of started that. It was that just because you've
Speaker 1: been hunting on your own and liked it and had
Speaker 1: a knack for it. Yeah, I think, to be honest
Speaker 1: with you, I was just trying to get more time
Speaker 1: out there hunting UM in Arizona. You know with our
Speaker 1: draw it's you know, limited tags and living here and
Speaker 1: not having you know a lot of resources early on
Speaker 1: to to go hunt. I thought being a guide was
Speaker 1: perfect because I could go tag along and you know,
Speaker 1: actually go experience all these hunts. Because Dar was actually
Speaker 1: raised in a hunting family since he was little. I
Speaker 1: shot my first year when I was fifteen, but that
Speaker 1: was the first real hunt that I had ever been on.
Speaker 1: So I was one of those kids that grew up.
Speaker 1: My grandma got me Field and Stream and Outdoor Life magazine.
Speaker 1: But I absolutely wanted to hunt as a little kid
Speaker 1: worse than anything. But is usually those people don't turn
Speaker 1: into real good hunters, And it's usually the people that
Speaker 1: have you have to do with your whole life, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I mean some would argue whether I'm a good
Speaker 1: hunter or not. I guess that the thing is is
Speaker 1: I wanted to hunt and fish so bad as a
Speaker 1: little kid. I think even today people ask me why
Speaker 1: I love it so much, is because when I was little,
Speaker 1: I really didn't have the opportunity. I was the kid
Speaker 1: that literally when Field and Stream came, you know, like
Speaker 1: six seven, eight years old, would read it cover to
Speaker 1: cover and literally have like the pages flipped to the
Speaker 1: things that I liked. And you know, so once I
Speaker 1: got introduced to it, um, I was hooked. That's all
Speaker 1: I wanted to do is hunting fish. You know. Jabs
Speaker 1: up the interesting point where like, how if you want
Speaker 1: to hunt in Arizona, you you, oftense just have to
Speaker 1: go with someone who's gonna take if you notice when
Speaker 1: you see pictures from Arizona, there's always seven eight guys
Speaker 1: in the picture because you got your guys you hang
Speaker 1: out with and you're hoping that one of the guys
Speaker 1: draws the tag. If you want to go every year,
Speaker 1: you gotta go with your buddies. Yeah, Like if you
Speaker 1: live in Montana, it's like if you're a Montana resident,
Speaker 1: absolutely anale tag every year. Absolutely elk tag every year.
Speaker 1: Absolutely a buck mulier or white tail tag every year.
Speaker 1: There's many dolle tags you want to get. Absolutely a
Speaker 1: bear tag every year. You can hunt more months than
Speaker 1: you can't hunt here. I mean it's just a different place.
Speaker 1: It's just like it's just not as productive of a landscape.
Speaker 1: You just can't. You know, there's there's not over to
Speaker 1: counter hunting here so much. We do have lots of
Speaker 1: opportunity here if you're you know what, do archery and
Speaker 1: just do different things. There is a lot of opportunities.
Speaker 1: But you're not walking around because you walt it's fat
Speaker 1: with all the tables to figure out somewhere, all the tags.
Speaker 1: So yeah, you fall in with someone and and you
Speaker 1: know I mentioned that like in this this the hunting guy,
Speaker 1: but we haven't coming out. I mentioned there's a lot
Speaker 1: of things that if you want to go hunt them,
Speaker 1: Like I said, like, if you want to go on
Speaker 1: a on a big orang hunt. Started hanging out with
Speaker 1: guys that are interested in big horns because the chances
Speaker 1: if you ever actually drawn a tag, you know, it's
Speaker 1: not gonna happen, but if you fall in with the
Speaker 1: right crowd, you might go on a handful him. I've
Speaker 1: been on a couple of big horn ons. I've never
Speaker 1: drawn a big Orang tag. I just had the experience
Speaker 1: of going. It's very incredible. It's a blass man, and
Speaker 1: you know, I still sit here feeling like I gotta
Speaker 1: remind myself that I didn't shoot the thing, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, cause it just felt like like being there.
Speaker 1: That's exactly how I ended up here working with you
Speaker 1: is because I found out you had a doll Sheep
Speaker 1: tag and I've volunteered my time just so I could
Speaker 1: fly in the airplane into doll Sheep Country join you.
Speaker 1: And I think, damn you two up like email like yeah,
Speaker 1: you were like, yeah, Steve's got a tag, you should
Speaker 1: talk to him. He was in, I was in. I
Speaker 1: was in Fairbanks. Yeah, and so just by going, you know,
Speaker 1: I by wanting to go and see sheep country and
Speaker 1: see a sheep hunt and and experience a sheep hunt.
Speaker 1: Here we are, I've been. Yeah, I had to take
Speaker 1: for something called the Tope Management Area. Now you guys
Speaker 1: have never hunted doll sheep, right, No, you do want
Speaker 1: to remember one of you was complaining about that you're
Speaker 1: a little bit afraid of cold weather. It was I
Speaker 1: think it was wet where in Arizona was wet. I
Speaker 1: wouldn't say that. Anytime the weather gets under sixty degrees,
Speaker 1: I grabbed for a sweater. So I mean, I'm definitely
Speaker 1: a desert rat. But um, yeah, I would love to
Speaker 1: go doll sheep hunting stone sheep hunting. Um alright, So
Speaker 1: definitely not saying I'm the toughest critter out there. Well no,
Speaker 1: you gotta be though now from doing all the sheep scouting. Um.
Speaker 1: All right, So you guys, we're gonna flashop you'd like
Speaker 1: to hunt or you'd like to hunt a lot? And
Speaker 1: just got him to guide and start out doing elk
Speaker 1: and who's you're down in Mexico. I love videos. I
Speaker 1: want to say that last um, was my twenty year,
Speaker 1: would have been my twentieth year of taking the entire
Speaker 1: month of September off to video elk. And it started
Speaker 1: out videoing elk and guiding elk hunters and just my
Speaker 1: my love for elk and bugling and all of the
Speaker 1: parts of the game of elk hunting, from calling to
Speaker 1: you know, all of the different facets of elk hunting.
Speaker 1: I was just enamored with it. Yeah, Jay even judges
Speaker 1: h elk calling contest three years. I was a judge
Speaker 1: for the Rocky Mountain Calling contest, but I didn't judge
Speaker 1: this last year actually because it was during sheep season.
Speaker 1: They bumped their um expo up into December, which was
Speaker 1: right at the beginning of the general desert bighorn cheap season.
Speaker 1: So doing doing the elk deal, how did that lead
Speaker 1: into like how like kind of like give like a
Speaker 1: quick crash course and how dude becomes a sheep gun um.
Speaker 1: To be real honest with you, we hunted all sorts
Speaker 1: of stuff. In two thousand nine, my friend Glenn Hall,
Speaker 1: Darnay's mutual friend, Glenn Hall, who we just think the
Speaker 1: world of, actually drew a desert big horn sheep hunt.
Speaker 1: I had never been on a sheep hunt until then,
Speaker 1: and so he drew the tag and his son Tyler
Speaker 1: and I, Uh, basically we wanted to know everything there
Speaker 1: was to know about sheep hunting. So I talked to
Speaker 1: every single person that would listen to me, that would
Speaker 1: take a phone call. Um. Tyler and I both scouted
Speaker 1: a lot for Glenn's hunt, and from the first time,
Speaker 1: just as it was my friend and I wanted to
Speaker 1: be there for the whole thing, I took the whole
Speaker 1: time off. And you know that was I wanted a
Speaker 1: good guy. No, I hope I draw an Arizona sheeta
Speaker 1: and so I just first. Um, so from the first
Speaker 1: round that I ever saw, and I was just hooked
Speaker 1: the yellow horn, just the country they live in. I
Speaker 1: was just hooked on it. And so I mean we
Speaker 1: became almost obsessive of you guys have a good hunt.
Speaker 1: That year the two nine, Glenn shot what at the
Speaker 1: time was the number three muzzleloader ram uh in the
Speaker 1: Long Hunter book, UND seventy six and four eights net,
Speaker 1: which was a barge ram for that unit. And um,
Speaker 1: we looked at a ton of rams. But I mean,
Speaker 1: at from that point, from that season, UM just absolutely
Speaker 1: hooked on sheep hunting. And that was over in western Arizona,
Speaker 1: and we had already been guiding, you know, for cou's
Speaker 1: deer and elk and all the other stuff. And um,
Speaker 1: we learned so much about that unit. Um, how many
Speaker 1: days did you put in when when your friends us
Speaker 1: to take how I mean, I would say we put
Speaker 1: in twenty one days at least, maybe maybe more. Um,
Speaker 1: but videoing and photographing them and just documenting them. I
Speaker 1: just fell in love with it. And as fortune would
Speaker 1: have at the neck next year, actually, um, a guy
Speaker 1: from Wisconsin, Ron Order for drew the same unit. Well
Speaker 1: when he called me, he had found out that that
Speaker 1: um we we I was in there the year before
Speaker 1: he had the same hunt. And I said, look, you know,
Speaker 1: I might not have the experience on judging rams and
Speaker 1: what have you, but I know the unit, and I
Speaker 1: know some of the rams that are in there, and
Speaker 1: we got a great one last year. And and I
Speaker 1: think Darney's expertise in glassing for cous dear just I mean,
Speaker 1: when you're trained to hunt cous dear and and and
Speaker 1: and glass for coustar sheep is in desert sheep is
Speaker 1: nothing compared to coust, So I felt like we fell
Speaker 1: right into the sheep game. Um, we took Ron out,
Speaker 1: actually guided Ron in two thousand and ten. He put
Speaker 1: his faith in trust in darn I. We did it together,
Speaker 1: and he got a beautiful ram that that we had
Speaker 1: nicknamed the Lolo Ram that we had actually found in
Speaker 1: the year before. And um, we spent I think we scouted.
Speaker 1: Um it was either every Wednesday or every Tuesday for
Speaker 1: like two and a half months, um steady every morning
Speaker 1: that day we would drive two hours from here. But
Speaker 1: then before the hunt, we spent a bunch of time
Speaker 1: and Ron killed the logo ram and that was two
Speaker 1: thousand and ten. And then, um, I just was in
Speaker 1: love with it even more. And dar Than was all in,
Speaker 1: you know, and he was loving it too. And two
Speaker 1: thousand eleven, Eric Swanson's ram he got an ice one.
Speaker 1: And then you know, then two thousand eleven we took
Speaker 1: our first raffle. So we kind of went from zero
Speaker 1: to a hundred real quick. Um. But I think Darnay's
Speaker 1: analytical nature and and it seems like everything that we
Speaker 1: get into I just want to know everything there is
Speaker 1: to know about it and be competent at it. So
Speaker 1: I think the way we went from being Elk guides
Speaker 1: and cous dear guides to being Sheep guides was just
Speaker 1: loving the game and wanting to be in the game
Speaker 1: and know everything you know you could about the sport.
Speaker 1: Do you guys think you'll keep doing going after sheet? Definitely?
Speaker 1: It's fun. I Mean there's one thing about sheep that
Speaker 1: I would say is different than deer and Elk. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of interaction with them when we're taking pictures
Speaker 1: in video. A lot of times it's close. I mean
Speaker 1: you're can be fifty yards from them sometimes, so some
Speaker 1: phenomenal video. Yeah, the pictures and video, it's really enjoyable
Speaker 1: documenting all that stuff, So that aspect of it is
Speaker 1: different than Elk and Deer. Do you guys put in
Speaker 1: for tags? Oh? Yeah? How many bonus points do you
Speaker 1: have now? I think I have like eighteen? Do they
Speaker 1: give any tags? Um? Just just to I feel we've
Speaker 1: talked about this so many times, just to like bring
Speaker 1: people at the speed on what I'm talking. What I
Speaker 1: talk about the bonus point is in when it comes
Speaker 1: to limited draw permit allocation, which happens when let's say
Speaker 1: you have you know, a hundred deer, and five dudes
Speaker 1: want to hunt deer. You gotta be like fair about it,
Speaker 1: and not everybody gets to go, And so everybody starts supplying,
Speaker 1: and they reward loyal customers. Thinking of a person who
Speaker 1: applies for a tags as a customer. They reward loyal
Speaker 1: customers by every year that they apply without success, they
Speaker 1: are given a bonus point or a preference point, And
Speaker 1: basically these are like rewards points which enhance your chances
Speaker 1: in the subsequent years to draw a tag. Some states
Speaker 1: handle bonus points in different ways where some states, and
Speaker 1: this is true for everything from bears to big horns, right,
Speaker 1: but even turkeys. There's bonus points for turkeys in some states.
Speaker 1: So some states will give a certain number of the
Speaker 1: tags to whoever has the maximum number of points in
Speaker 1: that given year. Some states just you to point as
Speaker 1: a point in your name goes in once for each
Speaker 1: point you have. So if you have four bonus points,
Speaker 1: your name goes into the hat four times. Montana squares
Speaker 1: your bonus points. So I have right now twelve bighorn
Speaker 1: sheep bonus points in Montana, or thirteen, my name will
Speaker 1: be going into the hat one hundred and sixty nine
Speaker 1: times this year. I will not draw a big horn
Speaker 1: tag this year. Um and and until that state does
Speaker 1: the thing where you give a certain number of tags
Speaker 1: of the max point holder, I'll probably never draw. Always
Speaker 1: a chance. Um, yeah, I have a chance up into
Speaker 1: almost a percent. I think I have about a one
Speaker 1: percent chance um with thirteen bonus points. Anyways, you have
Speaker 1: eighteen and twenty bonus points. Are you in a situation
Speaker 1: where they're going to for sure give you a tag
Speaker 1: when you get a max don't? Don't they don't do
Speaker 1: that max holder thing. We're so far behind. I think
Speaker 1: I think five is max. Um. I could be around
Speaker 1: it might be six, But twenty five I think is max.
Speaker 1: And there are there are more MAX guys every year
Speaker 1: than there are permits available to meet all the max guys.
Speaker 1: The max guys still in a drawing. They're not just automatic.
Speaker 1: I think rough numbers. I was going to say there
Speaker 1: was like a hundred and fifty people with MAX for sheep,
Speaker 1: and they give well hundred fifty residents I believe with
Speaker 1: MAX for sheep, and let's say they give a hundred
Speaker 1: sheep tags in Arizona go to the people with the
Speaker 1: most bonus points, So twenty tags right off the top
Speaker 1: go to those max point holders. So I mean Jay
Speaker 1: and I are behind that, so far behind that, Well,
Speaker 1: I think I don't know. The things you need to
Speaker 1: look at when you don't have max points in Arizona
Speaker 1: is you need to apply for units that don't go
Speaker 1: in the max point draw. So so you need to
Speaker 1: pick some of the lesser tier units that might not
Speaker 1: have as bigger rams but might have a sleeper round.
Speaker 1: And that's what I'll I can try, and I always
Speaker 1: try and apply for units that there's still a chance
Speaker 1: if I draw of getting a really nice ram, but
Speaker 1: they aren't gonna the tags aren't gonna go on the
Speaker 1: max point because the way Arizona does it is they
Speaker 1: give the text to the people with the most points,
Speaker 1: but they don't give of each hunt. They just let
Speaker 1: those they pick those tags out of the pool. So
Speaker 1: those people with the max points are picking the best units.
Speaker 1: So the best units aren't available by the time it
Speaker 1: comes to the general jow because they only might have
Speaker 1: one or two tags and they're gone in that So
Speaker 1: if you're applying for those units, you're wasting your you
Speaker 1: will not draw. But a good story last year I
Speaker 1: took a girl on the general season, Avery Elms, cutest
Speaker 1: little thing you've ever seen, twelve years old from Oregon,
Speaker 1: Baker City, Oregon. She brought her dad and grandpa down. Um.
Speaker 1: She started hunting on the nineteenth once she got out
Speaker 1: of school. But she only had two bones us points.
Speaker 1: And it happened to me in the and it's a nonresident.
Speaker 1: As a nonresident, but she drew in that unit where
Speaker 1: where I hunted in two thousand nine and two thousand
Speaker 1: and ten, where the Glen Hall's big ram was and um,
Speaker 1: the logo ran and subsequently the one of the seven
Speaker 1: giants that shouldn't say giants, but one of the seven
Speaker 1: big rounds that we found uh scouting for the auction
Speaker 1: tag was in that unit and it actually got killed
Speaker 1: and I think it was a hundred and eighty three
Speaker 1: inches um. And she drew a two bonus points. So
Speaker 1: don't ever think that as a nonresident you can't draw,
Speaker 1: because she drew with two points and she got a
Speaker 1: beautiful ram, and um was a pleasure to hunt with.
Speaker 1: So you'll do more. You'll do more than one chap hunt.
Speaker 1: You did. You were involved in several sheep points. Well,
Speaker 1: Dar had a client in fifteen D North and and
Speaker 1: I had Avery Elms and forty four B North and
Speaker 1: then we also had the the auction hunter. Um, so
Speaker 1: technically I guess we had three homes. You guys split up, No, no, yeah, rarely,
Speaker 1: but but we do. So Jaane Darr didn't kill it.
Speaker 1: I found the big one and I called Jake because
Speaker 1: his hunter wasn't coming. I didn't. He said, my bags
Speaker 1: are cacked on headed. All I had to do was
Speaker 1: just say I found a big one, and I was
Speaker 1: scrambling for my stuff to to get up there to
Speaker 1: just help him out anyway I could. So now I
Speaker 1: meant to talk about it. What I wanted to talk
Speaker 1: about all the things you guys got, but we burned
Speaker 1: up tons of time on big horns. But to put
Speaker 1: in term of points, the ELK units you apply, the
Speaker 1: ELK units you hunting are arguably the best ELK units
Speaker 1: in the country because Arizona is widely regarded. As you know,
Speaker 1: it makes like the if you're gonna if you ask
Speaker 1: anybody who's really into elk to name like the top
Speaker 1: two or three elk states, Arizona's eyes on the list
Speaker 1: and the best units in the best state. How many
Speaker 1: years have the guys you guys had been applying for
Speaker 1: the tags that you got. It's a great question. You know,
Speaker 1: our draw just came out. The actual draw hasn't been released,
Speaker 1: but they've hit the credit cards. So the guys that
Speaker 1: have applied on a credit card, UH, they know they've
Speaker 1: got a ding on their cards, so they know that
Speaker 1: it hit for whatever the amount is the non resident
Speaker 1: feeding h like Friday four or five days ago or
Speaker 1: three days ago. UM. So I have a guy, Bob
Speaker 1: Reid from Bend, Oregon, UH, sixty eight years old. He
Speaker 1: has seventeen bonus points he put in for Unit nine archery.
Speaker 1: So he's been faithfully applying for an Arizona LT for
Speaker 1: seventeen years and going and apparently hasn't come out because
Speaker 1: he wouldn't have his bonus points if you'd come out
Speaker 1: right and and going into the draw. You can look
Speaker 1: at the numbers and see how it went last year.
Speaker 1: And we were pretty confident that with seventeen points he
Speaker 1: was going to get the Unit at nine archery tag.
Speaker 1: So he applied for Unit nine one choice and he
Speaker 1: did get a ding on his credit card, so we
Speaker 1: know we're going to outcome is the right seventeen points
Speaker 1: seventeen points when you're in those units, like how good
Speaker 1: is good? Like how many bulls you like to call?
Speaker 1: Like you call up but Darry, you don't like to
Speaker 1: call it too much. You more just like to get
Speaker 1: out in front of just see if something happens. So
Speaker 1: when you're calling, like in one of these primo units,
Speaker 1: if you're like, how many bulls might you see? You know,
Speaker 1: when they're really writing and really going, you know, you
Speaker 1: can get out of the truck and make a little walk,
Speaker 1: and you know, when it's really hot, you can hear
Speaker 1: twelve or fifteen bulls buglean when it's really good. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, and in a given day, whether you're just
Speaker 1: trying to glass them or if you're actually trying to
Speaker 1: work those bulls and get in on them. I mean,
Speaker 1: I would say on a good day you could see
Speaker 1: in a morning, I mean you could probably see a
Speaker 1: dozen bowls easy. Um, if you were just glassing, just
Speaker 1: trying to spot elk and not really move in on him.
Speaker 1: When it's good, you could see I mean you could
Speaker 1: see probably fifteen or twenty bulls, no problem, would you agree? Dar?
Speaker 1: I mean, what's that? What's that? That. What's that YouTube video?
Speaker 1: How would people find that YouTube video? That bull comes
Speaker 1: up with screams in your face and you try to
Speaker 1: scare it off. Oh yeah, it's um uh Tracy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's encountered with crazy. I I was in Unite with
Speaker 1: Chad Converse and Richard Sprague in two thousand and ten
Speaker 1: and this bull was bugling and I kind of we
Speaker 1: snuck up and they got out in front of me,
Speaker 1: and I cow called and you could tell he was
Speaker 1: just coming, and then he kind of comes and then
Speaker 1: he kind of turns and looks in their direction, and
Speaker 1: I kind of called to him, and he just came
Speaker 1: like on a string, and he ends up coming around
Speaker 1: trying to catch my wind, and he circles me around
Speaker 1: over here, so you'll see I kind of turned the
Speaker 1: camera and he comes and I'm just sitting like, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of on my knees, and he comes up bugles
Speaker 1: into the camera and I thought that's cool. And then
Speaker 1: he takes like five or six more steps and he's
Speaker 1: literally as close or maybe closer. I can't believe you
Speaker 1: didn't try to spook him before that. You know, I've
Speaker 1: been very very close to elk Um before and It's
Speaker 1: just one of those things that worried he's gonna all
Speaker 1: of a sudden just get scared, and all would take
Speaker 1: is him just we always we always laughed at you know,
Speaker 1: whatever you do, keep the camera running. If that happens. Um,
Speaker 1: it's probably not the smartest thing. I don't condone. But
Speaker 1: I love, I mean like it all the safety. I
Speaker 1: love being close to him, and and you know, sometimes
Speaker 1: literally you can, if you play your cards right, you
Speaker 1: can literally probably reach out and touch them as they
Speaker 1: walk by. But you gotta tell me your heart hadn't
Speaker 1: been raising them. Oh yeah, I was. It was I
Speaker 1: was on full alert. I'm thinking he's got me if
Speaker 1: he wants me, for sure. Video Jay's face is pale
Speaker 1: when you turn a camera back on you a little
Speaker 1: a little cam quarter thing and you're talking about the
Speaker 1: same video on talking about where you want to and
Speaker 1: like you shoot, shoot whoa whobo whoa yeah, wobo yeah,
Speaker 1: and he kind of just look he hesitates and he
Speaker 1: looks at me, and I'm going whobo And he never
Speaker 1: really spits. No, he doesn't know it's on YouTube. You
Speaker 1: can it's on our YouTube. Yeah, he doesn't spook. He's
Speaker 1: so and like I know that in that you like,
Speaker 1: if you're gonna go there, you've been putting him seventeen
Speaker 1: years all that, Like you're gonna go and you're gonna
Speaker 1: try to kill a giant. You know why not? I would? Um,
Speaker 1: but that bowls like it like like a normal like
Speaker 1: a public land hunter in Colorado, DA. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think that's the thing the beauty of Arizona is. You know,
Speaker 1: it's such good hunting and a lot of guys have
Speaker 1: waited for so long you hate for it to be
Speaker 1: over with quick. We you know, we book fourteen day hunts.
Speaker 1: We do the whole archery hunt, you know, one on one.
Speaker 1: That's that's you know, I'm taking this guy in Unit nine.
Speaker 1: He's my only hunter. I'm as committed to the hunt
Speaker 1: as he is. And um, we don't you know, we
Speaker 1: don't split the hunt up. We feel like, you know,
Speaker 1: we want the hunter to be as committed as we
Speaker 1: are to the hunt. So you guys, clients will sometimes
Speaker 1: have you are here, like when you're looking at guided
Speaker 1: hunts as always like two to one, I mean, like
Speaker 1: two clients one guy. But you guys, some kinds do
Speaker 1: the other way around. Well, most of the close to
Speaker 1: the time for ELP. Dar and I each have a client,
Speaker 1: but you know there's certain times when we maybe not.
Speaker 1: We might each have an archery client, but we don't
Speaker 1: have a muzzleloader an early rifle. And most every situation
Speaker 1: like that, if I don't have a client, I stay
Speaker 1: and helped oar with his client. If he doesn't have
Speaker 1: a client, he stays and helps me. Yeah. Or if
Speaker 1: we shoot line bull on narratory hunt and the other
Speaker 1: guy's got two guys helping. Yeah, And it always seems
Speaker 1: like there's somebody else from your community that's like glass.
Speaker 1: And so if you don't like to call, what do
Speaker 1: you like? How do you do it? Like? What's your philosophy?
Speaker 1: I just like to get in front of them. And
Speaker 1: it's not that I don't call, because I do. Jay's
Speaker 1: got me calling some but um my, I'm not as
Speaker 1: good of callers Jay. If I if I was, I
Speaker 1: certainly would call more, but I'm not, so I have
Speaker 1: to use you know, stalking to get in on them. Um.
Speaker 1: I just like my theory is that if I can
Speaker 1: get in front of them and they don't know him, there,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not calling to him, so they're not
Speaker 1: looking at me in front of them, meaning when they're
Speaker 1: traveling to when they're traveling or when they're out feeding.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm trying to stay parallel to them and
Speaker 1: then just keep getting closer, hooking in front of them,
Speaker 1: and they're going to pass by, like on an archery hunt.
Speaker 1: I think one of the biggest challenges with them, what
Speaker 1: Dar's talking about, is the elk, no matter what, are
Speaker 1: always walking into the wind. So when Dar says get
Speaker 1: in front of him, he never actually gets in front
Speaker 1: of him because they were parallel in but and then
Speaker 1: at the least closer. Yeah, And so that's the trick
Speaker 1: that I mean, definitely hunting in the Southwest a lot
Speaker 1: of times will chase out in line after these bulls
Speaker 1: and line out after these bulls, and we'll go for
Speaker 1: a mile a mile and a half before we even
Speaker 1: just decide to hook in. I mean we'll be patient,
Speaker 1: be patient, be patient and cooking, and you might hook
Speaker 1: in and you might be thirty seconds later, twenty yards
Speaker 1: late where there. So yeah, and then you got to
Speaker 1: loop around and do it again. And the challenge too
Speaker 1: is um you know, usually the cows are in the
Speaker 1: lead and the bulls always in the back. And the
Speaker 1: cows are so wary and such. You've got to cook
Speaker 1: in enough that the cows don't win you, but getting
Speaker 1: close enough where you have a shot at that bowl
Speaker 1: when he comes by. So I mean it's truly Dar's
Speaker 1: phenomenal at it um, but it's truly something you kind
Speaker 1: of have to learn how to do. And you know,
Speaker 1: if you get in front of him, you win them.
Speaker 1: You've now spooked them and they take off and now
Speaker 1: you've got to find a new group of elk the chase.
Speaker 1: But you also gotta if you don't push the envelope,
Speaker 1: you'll never get it cracking. It's a fine line because
Speaker 1: if you if you stay too far back and behind him,
Speaker 1: you'll just never catch up. You know, in my own years,
Speaker 1: like like I bowl hunted for out heavily for almost
Speaker 1: a decade um where you kind of like my brother
Speaker 1: and I had a place we hunted, We knew it well.
Speaker 1: He still hunted. He does much better now than he
Speaker 1: did when he was with me. Um, But we would
Speaker 1: all we talked about that line all the time. Without
Speaker 1: we're on one hand, you can just sit and plot,
Speaker 1: you know, like at five o'clock, you know, like the
Speaker 1: sun gets there. They always come over. It takes about
Speaker 1: blank time and then the whole herds over. Then you
Speaker 1: can kind of come in behind him and get down
Speaker 1: the ridge and you know, and you watch that whole
Speaker 1: thing for a day and then like you go to
Speaker 1: make a move the next day, but the winds that right,
Speaker 1: you know, but you're only hunting the three day weekend,
Speaker 1: and you're always sort of like at some point you
Speaker 1: just gotta get there in risk doing it. And then
Speaker 1: you get in there and spook and you're like, man,
Speaker 1: should have waited. Yeah, you know, it just seems like
Speaker 1: such a situation, you know, like like you're just running.
Speaker 1: It's a fine line, definitely is a fine line. And
Speaker 1: every now then you get lucky where you've been paralleling
Speaker 1: for so long and instead of you hooking, yeah, you
Speaker 1: get yeah, yeah, you get dealt that nice wild card
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden they're just decided to hook
Speaker 1: in front of you, or another bull bugles and there
Speaker 1: the bull you know, the cow's keep going and the
Speaker 1: bull stops and rakes a tree and boom, you're right there.
Speaker 1: So I was watching, uh, I was watching the episode
Speaker 1: of of the show Western Hunter, and um, it was
Speaker 1: that shows different hosts, but it was Matt Simmons was
Speaker 1: on there, yes, and um sorry, and he was like
Speaker 1: he got of like summed up his ELK cunning strategy
Speaker 1: and like such simple terms, but having done some ELK conning,
Speaker 1: it makes total sense. He basically like, I like to
Speaker 1: get close away for something to happen. Yeah, And that
Speaker 1: sounds kind of like flip it. But then you're kind
Speaker 1: of like, I know exactly what you're talking about. You
Speaker 1: kind of get in there and it's like it's dynamic,
Speaker 1: like things are changing, you know, and now and then
Speaker 1: like I remember one time didn't work out. Remember one
Speaker 1: time like doing that and all of a sudden realize
Speaker 1: that the bowl I've been sneaking up, I just got
Speaker 1: totally engrossed and thrashing a tree, you know, And I
Speaker 1: could have driven a quad runner up on him at
Speaker 1: that point, you know, because it's just like something happened,
Speaker 1: Like he's super were he bedded down, there's no where
Speaker 1: you're gonna get anywhere near him, And all of a a
Speaker 1: sudden he stands out and you're like that dude is
Speaker 1: just oblivious because you're shredded that tree. And then you
Speaker 1: know there is like something happened. You know, Yeah, you
Speaker 1: gotta just shadow him, and I hope they make a mistake.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's what you're doing well. And I think
Speaker 1: our terrain too, is a lot different than other states. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, we can travel with the help a lot
Speaker 1: better down here. We're not running through the you know,
Speaker 1: broken down blue spruce, you know, um blowdowns and stuff.
Speaker 1: You know, you guys got that nice you guys offer
Speaker 1: that nice bed of pine needles too, and and then
Speaker 1: it's flat and so we can really run with these
Speaker 1: elk and it's just a lot of fun. If you
Speaker 1: haven't experienced Arizona, you know, it's something that you've got
Speaker 1: to apply for. And and you know, there are units
Speaker 1: that you can draw with five or six seven points
Speaker 1: as a non resident, that you can have bigleen bowls.
Speaker 1: And maybe they're not the giant you know, three three
Speaker 1: sixty plus type bowls, but a lot of you know,
Speaker 1: three hundred three twenty bulls, which most people are just
Speaker 1: tickled pink with. And there's a chance at a three
Speaker 1: fifty bowl and every unit in the state, so it's
Speaker 1: always a chance. I have some number of points, but
Speaker 1: I'm still kind of just saving them up. You know
Speaker 1: how many points do you have fruit? I can tell
Speaker 1: you by looking it up. I can't, I mean four
Speaker 1: or five? I think so I'll be calling you guys
Speaker 1: in twenty years like alright, man, were yeah, all right,
Speaker 1: well I'm gonna we're have you guys are gonna have
Speaker 1: we have to sit down again because we can talk
Speaker 1: about the things I'm actually most interested in. It is
Speaker 1: hunting googled's turkeys and hunting Cou's dear. So I guess
Speaker 1: this is we would think of this. J and R.
Speaker 1: Tell over your website, Jay Scott Outdoors dot com, Colburn
Speaker 1: and Scott Outfitters dot com the same website, two websites.
Speaker 1: They're different that they were just like the same, just
Speaker 1: two ways getting our guiding. Our guiding website is the
Speaker 1: Colburn and Scott Outfitters dot com. And then um, all
Speaker 1: of our other adventures fishing, all the hunting, all the
Speaker 1: gear stuff, what have you with Jay Scott Outdoors dot com.
Speaker 1: And then you can go on and look up encounter
Speaker 1: with Ale one crazy crazy I so check that out.
Speaker 1: It's good stuff. Alright, guys, we're gonna do it again
Speaker 1: and talk about more stuff. But thanks for listening, everybody, um,
Speaker 1: best of luck, make sure to get in here. It's
Speaker 1: too late now, but the two thousand what sixteen applications
Speaker 1: Deer and Deer and Sheep is coming up in Gene,
Speaker 1: So get your deer and sheep applications in. It's your
Speaker 1: deer and sheep applications, and in twenty years you might
Speaker 1: be on the phone with Jane Scott. Jane