WEBVTT - Ep. 016 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:03.160 All right, everyone, thanks for tuning in. You know you 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:05.600 don't tune into podcasts. Thanks for downloading the Meat Eater 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:09.720 podcast we're recording right now. Out of I was thinking, 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:12.760 this whole area is Phoenix. You guys got it all subdivided. 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:17.680 It's Phoenix, but it's it's Phoenix about scotts Stale, Greater Phoenix. Yeah, 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:20.360 we're in the Greater Phoenix area, which is great in Scottsdale. 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:24.640 I'm here with yo. Honestly, tell us who's often with us? 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:29.280 And before anything happens, I wanna tell Yanna's plug your 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:32.400 T shirt company. We've done so many podcasts. You never 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:36.239 plug your T shirt company. Janice has a T shirt company. 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:40.000 It's called a Hunt to Eat. Go buy. If everyone 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:42.720 in this who listens to this goes and buys one 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:45.479 of Yanni's T shirts. Who's a constant presence on the 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:51.680 media podcast, Yanni will be He'll be rich. Maybe maybe 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:54.240 give us just like ten days. Oh no, when this 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:56.840 air is, it's gonna be. That's what I'm doing now. Perfect. 0:00:57.120 --> 0:00:59.120 He's been having printing problems, but don't think that he 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:01.400 doesn't put out the high s quality T shirt possible. 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:06.959 Hunt to Eat dot Com hunt eat dot com with 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:11.120 a two though numerous. Oh. The website is t O 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:16.440 to eat h U n T t O e A T. 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:19.320 You go there. He's got different shirts they say hunt 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:22.680 to eat on him. You buy one. They're not expensive, 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:28.559 they're cool looking shirts. Yanni gets a bunch of money. Um, 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:30.400 you get an awesome shirt that says hunt to eat 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:32.360 on you get different states. You guys still have what 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:36.000 you have? Colorado pretty slim right now it's Colorado. And 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:38.280 then we have a generic Hunty. We've got a couple 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:40.080 of coming down the pipe, so hopefully we'll have them 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:42.400 out before hunting season. I don't know why I'm out 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:44.640 selling Joannie on his own T shirt company, but he's 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:46.880 just go there and get a hunt Eat T shirt. 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:49.760 I can start talking about that all the time. There 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:51.440 thing you ought to do before we get too fire 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:56.639 into this is uh mediator podcast is in many ways, 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:02.240 it's like it's the offspring in some way of a show. 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:05.120 There's a TV show, Meat Eater. I'm in it. It's 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:07.440 on Sportsman Channel and if you want to go just 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:12.040 get it without having the monkey around with TV. You 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:14.760 can go to meat Eater dot vh X dot TV 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:19.359 and downloading stream Meat Eaters until your heart's content. I 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:21.480 don't know we have. I don't know how many there's 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:24.560 you know how many we've done sixty some episodes. There's 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:27.959 six full volumes, six full volumes on there. And put 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:32.720 in the offer code meat either podcast. You get five 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:36.480 bucks off. Um, you get five bucks off in the volume. 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:39.919 So then you put your hunt, eat Yanni Patel's T 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:43.400 shirt and watch met your episodes. You're saving money, You're 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:48.400 helping the planet. Um. We're joined by Dark Holburn and 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:52.919 Jay Scott, two guides that I know who operate down here, 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:56.400 and you get Colburn and Scott outfitters. If you were 0:02:56.400 --> 0:03:03.800 gonna go on a guided hunt, Um, you this is 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:05.880 gonna sound like hyperbole. And I'm telling you, like I 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:07.919 have a vested interest in Yanni's selling a bunch of 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:09.560 T shirts because I hang out with them all the time. 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:16.320 I have a vested interest in you downloading me Eatier episodes. Um. 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:19.320 For for various reasons, I have no vested interest in 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:21.640 saying that if you were gonna go on a hunt 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:25.160 and you managed to get Jay and Scott to guide you, 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:27.160 you're in the best possible shape because they don't do 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.520 it for money. They just do because they like it. Well, 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:36.240 we do it for money, you guys, they do, they do. 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:39.720 But once you hear about how these guys operate, it's 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:41.440 sort of like what they do, you'll realize that it 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:44.560 goes way beyond that. And UM, give me what you 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:47.800 guys consider yourselves. A spokesman for Colburn the Scott authors, 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:50.240 we're gonna get into a lot of things that these 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:53.000 guys are involved in. I'll do this before you get 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:56.680 into you're you're involved, and I would say four primary pursuits. 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:04.440 Google to turkeys in Mexico. M hm. Okay, Now, just 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:06.720 to give a thing like turkeys in the US. All 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:11.320 turkeys in the US are regarded as from a genetic standpoint, 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:14.840 are regarded as one species. Okay, it's like the American 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:19.040 wild turkey. But wild turkeys are divided up into Rio's, 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:25.440 Rio Grand turkeys, Miriam's turkeys, Gould's turkeys, um Eastern turkeys, 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:30.760 Osceola's the Ostiola's are in South Florida, and it's kind 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:33.600 of the most that's the most dubious subspecies because there's 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:37.680 no genetic barrier between Eastern turkeys and Osceola is just 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:40.400 like a line. You just draw a line like basical 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:43.360 where around Orlando or something. You just like draw a 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:45.839 line across the state. And we all disagree that that 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:48.760 it's Osceolas on one side of the line, Eastern is 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:50.120 on the r side of the line. And there are 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:54.159 some morphological differences like that they have some the feather, yeah, 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:59.600 different color tones to them. When you get into the Goulds, 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:06.839 Rio's and Miriams, you did have real genetic barriers separating 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:10.320 these different populations out. The hardest one to get by 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:12.320 far as a ghouls, and the best place to go 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:15.479 to get a ghouls is in Mexico. And within that, 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:17.080 the best place to go do it is down with 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:21.760 the places that the jay hunts, so they do google 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:27.440 turkeys in Mexico. KU's deer in Mexico and Cou's deer 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:31.240 are kind of the only real valid subspecies of white tails. 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:39.640 Then elk in a handful of select units here in Arizona, 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:43.880 the numbers of which are unit nine, Unit ten, and unite. 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:48.920 That's Jay Scott talking now. Jay, I'm just trying to 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:50.840 do a quick wrap up, so let me keep yapping 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:53.000 from that. I don't mean to like you're the gas 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:56.080 and I'm doing talking about. I just want to lay 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:57.760 the groundwork here so you get this thing where that 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.560 you get these like these units. But it's not like 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:03.320 giving up a secret because it takes forever to draw 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:05.359 a unit and when we get around to speak to 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:07.279 that for a minute about what it requires to be 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:10.000 able to hunt one of those units. The fourth thing 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:14.480 these guys are involved in is hunting desert big horns. 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:19.359 That's correct, but only a little teeny bit, like only 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:22.720 one or two clients every year, right, Yeah, Well, there's 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:25.760 very few tags for desert bighorn sheep in the state. 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:28.200 I want to say, there's probably only seventy five tags. 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:32.360 That's a rough number, and it's very hard, very challenging 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:35.440 to get the tag, and you know a lot of 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:39.080 those people don't go guided, but if you do. Yeah, 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:42.520 there are less than I counted it up, and I 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:44.680 can't remember what I counted. There are less than a 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:48.480 thousand big horn tags in the US. Sounds about right. 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:52.159 Way mosty's big horn tags are given now is they're 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:56.719 given out through a lottery drawing where interested parties, interested 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:59.279 dudes send their money with an application and they do 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:01.080 like a lottery, they pull names out of a hat 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:03.919 and give those guys tags. But there's a couple other ways. 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:06.680 There's there's two other ways big horn tags. There's two 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:10.440 other primary ways. Like everything is just gets endlessly complicated, 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:12.480 but there's two other primary ways of big horn tags 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:14.640 given out. You give out a big horn tag through 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.880 a raffle where you can buy as many tickets as 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:19.760 you want for five or ten dollars a piece in 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:22.600 whatever state you choose to participate in the raffle, and 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:26.200 then that gives you multiple options and then they draw 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:28.320 a name out of that and the odds on raffles 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:32.480 can be dismal. Or they have a thing called a 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:36.040 Governor's tag or auction tag where to raise money for 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:41.080 big horn conservation. It's very expect like big horns are 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:42.840 missing from a lot of their native range. Is very 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:45.240 expensive to like get big horns and get them where 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:46.960 you want to give them and make the habitat right 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:49.560 and protect them and have enforcement and research. And one 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:52.440 of the ways they pay for all this is they 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:55.560 sell a tag. Every state, most western states will every 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:58.280 years sell a big horn tag and that's called the 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:03.440 Governor's tag or the arc and TEG. And you guys 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:06.360 have done that we have. We actually three years in 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:09.040 a row we guided the raffle hunter here in Arizona. 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:13.040 And the interesting thing in Arizona the raffle tag. You 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:15.760 can only hunt the nelson I sheep in Arizona. There's 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:18.960 two types of big horn. There's the Mexicana and there's 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:21.880 the nelson I. The nelson I primarily are located those 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:25.360 are both regarded as deserts. Both deserts. There's no distinction 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:27.360 in like Boone and Crockett are Pope and Young or 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:30.000 any of the record books. There's no distinction between the two. 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:33.480 But the nelson I primarily are in the north and 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:36.319 west part of the state, kind of northwest by Kingman's 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:40.280 basically the upper center. And um, the raffle hunter can 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:43.520 hunt nelson I sheep. There's one little section down in 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:46.840 a unit sixteen A that there are some mexicanas that 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:50.600 that move back and forth. But for three years darn 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:55.120 I both guided the raffle hunter, and um, how did 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:57.959 you find the guy? Like just I just want to 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:00.400 clear very real quicken. We say the raffle hunter the 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:04.400 tag in Arizona that was given out to the guy 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:06.719 that won, like the door prize type raffle thing. But 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:08.840 how many those raffle takes do they sell? I don't 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:12.080 know exactly how many they sold. I know that last year, 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:15.160 when the third year we did it, we harvested the 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:18.160 largest ram ever shot, not only on the raffle tag, 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:20.360 but the largest Nelson I ever shot in the state 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:24.400 of Arizona. Because of that, the following year, when the 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:26.960 raffle tag sales, I think it raised a hundred and 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:31.000 sixty hundred seventy thousand dollars, So it does almost as 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:33.000 good as the governor's are well. And that was the thing. 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:36.040 I think it brought thirty or thirty five thousand more. 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:38.319 And I don't want to say it's because we shot 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:40.520 a big ram, but I mean people too got You 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.400 got people's attention. Yeah, so you got. So go back 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:45.120 to that year. I guess we're in talk about big 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:47.600 horns first, because it just came up. Go back to that. 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:50.200 You're like, how that went down where a raffle guy, like, 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:52.120 how did you How did the raffle guy come to 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:54.480 hire you? And what did he hire you to do? Well? 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:58.400 The first year was Donny Young from Mississippi, and he 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:01.200 had actually called around and talked to several outfitters and 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:03.720 talked to both Dar and I and emailed us and 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:05.960 we sent him photos and such, and he kind of 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:09.600 interviewed us and he chose us and we actually went 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:12.720 out on that first year and shot. He got the 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:18.440 largest ram shot on on the Raffle tag and UM. 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:22.440 The second year we had UM Larry Spillers from Texas. 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:26.480 He interviewed us the same thing, interviewed other outfitters and 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:28.760 UM went out and he got a really nice ram. 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:31.440 He had just chattered his ankle and I think it's 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:35.600 his ankle and his foot and stuff. Didn't have screws 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:38.880 softball and he actually made a great stock even though 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:40.560 it killed him to get up there and shot a 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:43.280 really nice ram I think the third largest ever shot. Well. 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:46.680 Then the third year that we did the tag, Claude 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:50.600 Warren from Maine, UM called us and hired us pretty 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:55.640 much pretty quick. And he's a Raffle winner and he's 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:59.559 from Saco, Maine and just a great guy and and 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:03.760 he's the one that shot that really giant UM desert 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:07.120 big horn and Nelson, I, what do you want want 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:11.160 a guy like that? What do like like? What is 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:13.719 the package you you bring to someone when he's won 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:15.880 this thing. He's won this tag, the once in a 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:17.800 lifetime tag. You're never gonna be able to do something 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:20.120 like that. Again, what do you guys do to go 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.120 like guide that trip? Like talk about sort of the 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:26.959 time you spend and how your schedule plays out over 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.000 those months, because that's the thing that's most interesting to me. Yeah, 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:33.480 what's so cool about those tags? As they start um 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:37.200 August fifteenth and go to August fourteenth of the following year. 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:41.319 So it's a three sixty day tag. It was a 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:43.560 normal big oar and tag. Like, there is no normal 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:46.280 big oar and tags days here thirty days. So if 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:48.720 you actually drew the tag. The month in December is 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:51.480 the sheep season here in Arizona. But the raffle guy 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:54.199 gets a year, he gets a year, and they usually 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:58.080 find out in July. Um, I want to say mid 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:02.440 July for the fall for the upcoming year. So he 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:04.960 knew a month ahead of time that his hunt actually 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:11.160 started on August. Well, the raffle uh starts on August fifteenth. 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:13.880 Well obviously here in Arizona, you know, and over by 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:16.240 Kingman and Lake Havasu in some of these places where 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:18.760 the Nelson Are. You know, it's a d D eighteen 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:22.920 hundred twenty degrees out. So what's that country look like? Oh, 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:28.800 it's it's very beautiful country, but very rugged, um jagged cliffs, 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:32.840 and and it's pretty desolate, very desolate. I mean a 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:34.200 lot of times you go out there and you just 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:37.080 you can't believe that a sheep even or an animal 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:41.000 could live there. Um but just rock and sand, well 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:43.920 not as much sand, but granite and rock, and I 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:47.200 guess there is some sand, you know, real steep, um 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:53.400 jagged peaks and um, just beautiful country but but inhospitable 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:56.760 for sure. So you can't do it in August. That's 0:12:56.760 --> 0:13:00.240 the thing. I mean, you know, your hunt starts August five. Hunt. 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:02.880 But what we try and typically tell those raffle hunters 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:08.080 is about October is not only a great time to 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:09.800 go out and see a lot of sheep and the 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:14.520 Nelson I's typically are rutting really good from like, oh 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:16.520 the whole month of October and the whole month of 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:20.600 November they're still running really good. And so all three 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:23.480 of those hunts we generally hunted from like the fifteenth 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:27.679 of October to like November. That was kind of the window, 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:29.760 the thirty day window when we wanted to get our 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:33.400 hunts done, and that's the main thing, is prior to 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:36.280 the general season starting. So since they drew a year 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:39.440 long tag, that's great, but we also like to be 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:42.480 able to hunt before the general season starts. So you 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:46.520 know for a fact that you will not see another hunter. Well, 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.280 you won't see another desert cheap hunter. You might see 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:53.480 some guy hunt deer or whatever. Yea, really hardly ever 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:57.160 see anybody ever, which makes it awesome because you know, 0:13:57.280 --> 0:13:59.800 the sheep are rutting and there's a lot of them. 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:02.920 The units we hunt a lot of the fifteen units 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:05.520 and and such, there's just a lot of rams. I mean, 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:08.120 we would see sometimes a hundred sheep in a day 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:12.600 and see you know what rams in a day maybe 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:16.640 more um and they're running and there's nobody else out there. 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:18.680 So it's just but I should point out that during 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:20.560 much of this the hunter is not even out there. 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:25.920 Well the raffle hunt. Let me back up. Usually Dar 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:28.160 and I would go and scout for ten days to 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:30.440 two weeks prior to the season and we would just 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:32.360 go up there and we would just scout until the 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.040 hunter showed up, and then we would go and hunt 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:37.240 from there and we you guys camp out and just 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:42.080 look at rams. Yeah, just evaluate and look at rams, video, photograph. Absolutely, 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:45.440 it's awesome. They're running around. It's a great time. So 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:48.120 you just like have a camp set up, get up 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:53.840 in the morning, go watch wild Boy, wake up, watch 0:14:53.920 --> 0:15:01.600 you just keep it. Tell you what you saw. So 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:05.320 how many rams during that during that pre hunt period, 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:08.240 how many rams might you locate? I mean it, I 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:12.440 would say you could look at fifties, sixty, seventy eight rams, um, 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:15.960 depending on whether you know you're seeing ten anywhere from 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:18.840 Let's say you make a big hike and maybe you 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.200 go into country and there's not many sheep. Maybe you 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:24.680 see seven or eight and you could see thirty. It 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:28.040 just depends on really where you go. Um. And one 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:31.120 thing we really try to do is photograph and video 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:34.960 different rams. So we have a basically a catalog video 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:39.040 cattory of all the rams characteristics, you know, the flaring ones, 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:41.960 the ones that curl and tip up, um. So that 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:44.320 when the hunter gets there, he can go that's the 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.480 one I want to go after. What country was that 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:48.560 one in? And that that's the one we really like 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:51.760 do you feel that you find all the rams? Oh? 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:54.800 Absolutely not, no way. I mean, so there's stuff you 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:56.960 don't know, ye, even after all that, And I mean 0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:59.360 that that's half the fun of it is having where 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:02.800 you don't know what's there and what's around the next 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:06.320 the next you know, bend, and what's up over the 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.800 next hill. I mean, the country's way too rugged to 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:12.520 feel like you could have inventory of every ram. Now, 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:16.280 there are certain units in Arizona where after a certain 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:18.560 amount of time you can probably get a pretty good 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:22.280 inventory of every ram that's in there. But the sheep 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:24.400 moved too, so you could I mean you could be 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:27.400 there for a week and go back a week later 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.200 in some different rams of you know, moved into that area. 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:31.960 Do you feel like there's big horns in there that 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:34.560 no one's there? Could feasibly be a big horn in 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:36.880 there that no one's ever looked at? I doubt it. 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:40.200 I doubt it too, But I mean you take like 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:45.400 fIF D where we actually um harvested h two out 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:47.160 of three of the rams. Well, I guess fifteen D 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:52.400 south Um the unit got split. But there's you know, 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:54.760 I think they've surveyed five hundred and some sheep and 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:57.440 the last survey we were there actually three years in 0:16:57.440 --> 0:16:58.880 a row for their surveys, and I want to say 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:02.800 they surveyed the mean it's buy a helicopter anywhere between 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:04.840 four hundred and fifty and I think the last year 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:08.400 we're there it was close to five hundred and something sheep. So, 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:10.640 I mean, you're looking at a lot of country, and 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:13.639 you know, with the raffle tag you can hunt anywhere 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.919 any of those units. So you could basically go from 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:20.359 you know, the Bill Williams River at the bottom end 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:22.160 of sixteen A and you could go all the way 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:25.200 up through the Kaiabab and literally cover hundreds of miles 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:29.520 of country if you wanted to. Um to back up 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:31.959 a little bit, the first year we went out there 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:34.959 and we actually set a camp darnay. Then we actually 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:38.840 met a guy there in um Golden Valley, Fred Ashurst, 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:42.200 whose darn eyes now dear friend, and he just basically 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:45.080 got this awesome property with this house and he's got 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:48.800 this garage and concrete floors, and he invited us, hey, 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:50.960 just make base camp out of here. So actually the 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:53.600 last two years we did the raffle hunt, we just 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:56.520 stayed at Fred's, which made it great because he actually 0:17:56.560 --> 0:18:00.159 built a shower for us in a bathroom and I 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:02.360 mean I think the burring our cots out and yeah, 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:04.679 I mean we're there for you know, anywhere from twenty 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:08.440 one to you know, thirty days straight and um just 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:12.080 looking at cheap it's it's great without without get into 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:14.120 I don't want to get too personally. I don't want 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:17.879 to get too personal, not personally in like your personal life. 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:19.840 But how in the world do you build for something 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:23.359 like that. That's the thing. I mean, you if you 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:26.240 break it down by per hour, what Dar and I charge. 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:28.320 I mean we you know, we're doing it because we 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:31.360 love it, and we're doing it because really that's an 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:34.919 opportunity to hunt and really look out there and find 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:39.439 what's the unknown, and basically it covers our expenses to 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:42.680 be out there. But I remember, like, just to get 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:45.800 a sense for how much these guys look around. Um, 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:48.680 I remember conversation that I have with j I think 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:55.760 when we're hunting goold turkeys of Mexico. I had. I 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:58.760 was talking about how I've seen while hounting, I've run 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:03.680 into three mountain lions. And I remember asking Jay if 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:06.480 he sees many mountain lions and I think at the time, 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.040 I think you said, right now I'm looking for number 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:13.280 thirty two or something like that, and now it's looking 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:16.359 for number thirty eight. Well, we saw two down in 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:19.760 Mexico couster hunting. I actually just saw the one um 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:24.359 darsa on both. But um, yeah, if you're really have 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:28.920 a way to measure how much time someone spends. Um, 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:31.440 if you're if you're like like trying to like quantify 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:37.280 not just quantity, but quality of hours spent hunting in 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:39.560 this kind of area, it would be like a good 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:42.280 way to measure, like, well, how many mountain lions have 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:45.240 you seen? Because it's like not only is it how 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:49.400 much you're doing, about how good you're doing it, you know. Well, yeah, 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:52.800 I mean I will say that probably of the lions 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:57.240 that I've seen have been in Mexico maybe, And you 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:01.440 know it, I've seen a bunch of them, most all 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:04.159 of them with my binoculars. Um. You know, we're getting 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:07.400 up on big purchase and looking over tons of country 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:11.280 and doing it, you know, days on and looking for deer. Um. 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.200 But you know, people think, you know, the lions would 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:16.280 be hard to see. Most every lion I've seen, I 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:18.359 mean as soon as you see it, it's just boom, 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:20.760 that's a lot. And it's not like they're hiding. I 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:22.959 mean you just see him playing this day there reminds 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:25.600 me of something that that the writer. There's a really 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:27.680 good Hunt writer. No one really knows about the guy, 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:31.560 Duncan Gilchrist. Um, he's got a book Hunt High but 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:36.480 that he doesn't mean Hunt Stone, he means Hunt the 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:40.040 High Country. And he's just he's like this really like 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:42.760 Duncan Gilchrist was sort of like an accidentally good writer. 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:46.280 I think he accidentally almost wrote like Hemingway, like really 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:48.600 sparse and kind of beautiful. But he was a timber 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:50.800 cruiser by trade, but he was a big game guy too, 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:57.919 and he um in one of his passages he was saying, like, 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:00.560 all the time you spend he's a airs a lot, 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:03.320 all the time you spend being like, oh is that 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:07.399 a bear? You know, He's like, there's never been a 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:09.680 time when I've seen a bear where I thought, oh 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:11.359 was that a bear? And had to turn out to 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:14.480 be a bear. It just is and you know it, 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:17.080 you know, like a stump don't turn into a bear. 0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:20.000 It's like you're like, there's a bear and that's what 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:22.439 it's like, I mean, I think dar would agree with lions. 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:24.120 I mean you just see them in there they are. 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:26.159 It's just like that's what it is. Man. There's you 0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:28.879 know interesting about Duncan. He was really big into big horns, 0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:32.439 filming them. You heard of this guy he died filming 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:37.040 big horns. A friend of mine, it's more than an acquaintance. Mind. 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:41.400 An outdoor writer named Darryl Gadbo was writing a thing 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:45.359 it was with Duncan when Duncan had a heart attack 0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:53.200 and died. I remember Darryloo said, um, it was like 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:57.800 he just left, like Duncan just left. And he looked 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:01.600