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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the

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Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any

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Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media,

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Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, as an

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Speaker 1: inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not even

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Speaker 1: represent my own. And nothing contained in this show should

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Speaker 1: be used as medical advice or encouragement to use any

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Speaker 1: type of drugs. Hello Psychoactive listeners. Back last year, I

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Speaker 1: asked a dear friend of mine, who I think is

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Speaker 1: one of the smartest thinkers and writers and advisers about

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Speaker 1: drugs to join me on Psychoactive to answer questions from you,

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Speaker 1: the audience, and a bunch of you left you know,

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Speaker 1: some great questions, So we're gonna do that again. My

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Speaker 1: friend's name is Dr Julie Holland, and she is a

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Speaker 1: psychiatrist and a psychopharmacologist. She has been a willow and

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Speaker 1: commentator on National TV. She um has an advisor to

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Speaker 1: Psychedelics Company. She has edited or authored five books. Her

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Speaker 1: first book was called Weekends at Bellevue, nine years on

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Speaker 1: the night shift at the psyche R and her last

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Speaker 1: two books. One was called Moody Bitches and the next

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Speaker 1: one the most recent, Good Chemistry, The Science of Connection

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Speaker 1: from Soul to Psychedelics. So, Julie, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me again as a sort of co host

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Speaker 1: and question answer on Psychoactive I'm very happy to be

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Speaker 1: here Ethan any time that I can help you educate

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Speaker 1: the populace, you know, that's what I love to do. Okay, Well,

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Speaker 1: actually let's just start the last two books. Just tell

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Speaker 1: me first of all with Moody Itches. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: got a great title. What was that book about? It

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Speaker 1: is really about how women are sort of over pathologized,

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Speaker 1: over diagnosed, and over medicated in today's sort of psychiatric ecosystem,

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Speaker 1: that women uh can't have sort of a natural emotionality

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Speaker 1: to them which we can make good use of and

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Speaker 1: we don't need to pathologize it. So that's mostly what

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Speaker 1: Moody Bitches was. And it was also just giving a

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Speaker 1: lot of practical information to women about hormones, about psychiatric medicine,

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Speaker 1: about inflammation, which I care deeply about. And the subtitle

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Speaker 1: of Moody Bitches, is the truth about the drugs you're taking,

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Speaker 1: the sleep you're missing, the sex you're not having, and

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Speaker 1: what's really making you crazy and what is really making

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Speaker 1: people crazy. What I wrote about towards the end of

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Speaker 1: Moody Bitches was about how disconnected we are, disconnected from ourselves,

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Speaker 1: from nature, from each other. And this was all way

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Speaker 1: before COVID. So the book after Moody Bitch has really

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Speaker 1: continued with this idea of connection versus disconnection. What good

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Speaker 1: chemistry is all about. It's all about how if we

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Speaker 1: are feeling safe and connected, our natural chemistry will make

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Speaker 1: us feel good. And the reason why so many of

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Speaker 1: us feel terrible and are taking other drugs or medications

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Speaker 1: is that we aren't really enjoying that connection that's really

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Speaker 1: our birthright and that we're sort of wired for. I'm

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Speaker 1: just curious. It's been on my mind recently. I don't

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Speaker 1: even know if this is drug related. But when you

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Speaker 1: say about inflammation, if that was something you were very

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Speaker 1: curious about and thought I had a lot to say,

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Speaker 1: what what was the key elements of what you wanted

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Speaker 1: to share with people? That the key elements is that

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Speaker 1: inflammation underlies almost any disease process you can think of.

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Speaker 1: If you don't have inflammation, you won't have diabetes. If

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Speaker 1: you don't have inflammation, you won't have arthritis, you won't

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Speaker 1: have Alzheimer's, you won't have cancer. So it is in

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Speaker 1: the setting of inflammation that a lot of other really

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Speaker 1: bad things happen to your body. And it's also true

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Speaker 1: with your brain. When your body has any kind of inflammation,

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Speaker 1: your brain suffers. And there are times where the brain

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Speaker 1: has inflammation and then we're you're going to get into

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Speaker 1: issues like anxiety or depression or insomnia. So Moody Bitches

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Speaker 1: talks a lot about how to have sort of an

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Speaker 1: anti inflammatory lifestyle, and good chemistry does as well. So

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Speaker 1: anti inflammatory, you know, most of us know what anti

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Speaker 1: inflammatory diet doesn't have flour and sugar. It's just got

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Speaker 1: like whole foods that are sort of recognizable that grow

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Speaker 1: outside in the sunshine. Anti inflammatory activities will be things

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Speaker 1: like yoga or meditation or mindfulness. And then you have

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Speaker 1: anti inflammatory medicines. Right, We all know about a leave

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Speaker 1: and advil in these kind of name brand anti inflammatories,

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Speaker 1: but many of us forget that cannabis and CBD are

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Speaker 1: potent and anti inflammatories, as are some psychedelics. They are

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Speaker 1: also anti inflammatory. So part of a healthy, anti inflammatory lifestyle,

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Speaker 1: besides eating healthy food and staying as relaxed as you

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Speaker 1: can be, is the sort of judicious addition of some

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Speaker 1: drug as if you're comfortable with them, using things like

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Speaker 1: cannabis or CBD or psychedelics, keeping in mind that they

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Speaker 1: have anti inflammatory effects and therefore they're actually good for

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Speaker 1: your body. You know, I'm curious. I've been thinking about

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Speaker 1: doing an episode on sugar as it drunk, and when

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Speaker 1: it comes to sugar inflammation, I mean, you see, generally

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Speaker 1: a good idea that significantly reducing sugar intake can can

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Speaker 1: make some real difference there. Absolutely. I mean what I

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Speaker 1: wrote about it in Moody Bitches was really just eat

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Speaker 1: the colored foods. Don't eat the white foods. As much

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Speaker 1: as they taste good. The bread and dairy products, they're

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Speaker 1: really not that great for you. Flour and sugar. White

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Speaker 1: flour white sugar, for sure, are pro inflammatory. And sugar

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Speaker 1: is its own little uh has got all kinds of issues.

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Speaker 1: It is true that it really does act as a

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Speaker 1: drug in the brain, and you can get sort of

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Speaker 1: a tolerant to it. Or have withdrawal. If you're not

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Speaker 1: having it, it does rereak havoc on your pancreas and

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Speaker 1: your insulin levels. What's good to remember is that things

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Speaker 1: like cannabis and CBD help to balance out your blood

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Speaker 1: sugar levels. And you've mentioned the psychedelics would be helpful

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Speaker 1: with inflammation as well, So psychedelics, yeah, well, I mean

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Speaker 1: the truth is, the most anti inflammatory psychedelic is something

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Speaker 1: called d o I, which is not commonly mentioned when

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Speaker 1: we think about psychedelics, and for good reason. It actually

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Speaker 1: has an incredibly long half life, so it's just not

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Speaker 1: a practical thing to take. So, you know, let's go

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Speaker 1: to the questions and soviets listeners to call into a

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Speaker 1: phone number. The phone number is eight three three psycho

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Speaker 1: zero or or A three three seven seven nine two

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Speaker 1: four zero and just leave a question. And I'm hoping

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Speaker 1: that Julie will be want to do this again with

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Speaker 1: me sometime later this year early next and uh, and

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Speaker 1: we'll do this again. So let's go to the first

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Speaker 1: question from our listeners. Hi there, um, I was wondering

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Speaker 1: if you could talk a little bit about substances and

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Speaker 1: mental health and how that works differently for different people.

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Speaker 1: We're going to psychiatric hospital, and obviously I see a

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Speaker 1: lot of negative interactions with regards to certain substances and

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Speaker 1: certain mental health diagnoses. So I'm just wondering if you

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Speaker 1: can expand a little bit on how this works differently

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Speaker 1: for different people and why, and maybe some research that

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Speaker 1: might be coming down that UM speaks to these areas.

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Speaker 1: I myself suffer from mental health conditions like anxiety and depression,

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Speaker 1: and I find substances are very helpful in certain settings

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Speaker 1: or context, but obviously I see a lot of negative impacts.

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Speaker 1: I'm just wondering if you can elaborate or explain the

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Speaker 1: science behind behind some of that, and maybe some of

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Speaker 1: the policy that might inform that. Yeah, UM, so where

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Speaker 1: would you like to jump in on that one? I'll

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Speaker 1: start with what I know. For nine years, every Saturday

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Speaker 1: night and Sunday night, I was the doctor in charge

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Speaker 1: of the psychiatric emergency room at Bellevue Hospital, and I

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Speaker 1: was in charge of it like a fifteen to sixty

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Speaker 1: hour overnight shift, and far and away the substances that

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Speaker 1: reak the most havoc and in the psychiatric patients that

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Speaker 1: I saw in Bellevue number one alcohol, no question and

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Speaker 1: number two cocaine, So these are also drugs. They can

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Speaker 1: be detrimental. You know, the thing that people always kind

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Speaker 1: of forget about alcohol is that it really is a depressant,

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Speaker 1: and if you're using a depressant regularly, you're going to

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Speaker 1: get depressed and stay depressed. And a lot of the

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Speaker 1: people that I saw who had problems with alcohol, we're

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Speaker 1: significantly depressed, were suicidal. And you know, part of the

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Speaker 1: problem is that once you get to the point of

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Speaker 1: being sort of dysfunctional and addicted, you're also not able

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Speaker 1: to work or support yourself. You're not able to keep

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Speaker 1: up your relationships and your connections, so you become more disconnected.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you end up on the street or homeless and

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Speaker 1: you have no money, and all of those things are

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Speaker 1: obviously going to make you more miserable, more suicidal. But

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Speaker 1: far and away, alcohol was the biggest sort of problematic

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Speaker 1: drug that I saw in all my work in psychiatry,

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Speaker 1: and then with cocaine, and it was really in particular

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Speaker 1: crack cocaine that we had people who would come in

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Speaker 1: off of binges where they've been smoking crack for days

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Speaker 1: and they were very paranoid or they were psychotic, or

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Speaker 1: they were crashing from their cocaine binge and they were

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Speaker 1: terribly depressed. So from a practical point of view, these

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Speaker 1: are the two drugs that I think are most sort

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Speaker 1: of problematic for mental health maintenance. But on the flip

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Speaker 1: side of that, what we know, or what we're learning

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Speaker 1: now is that there are some drugs that people might

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Speaker 1: consider them to be drugs of abuse, but they can

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Speaker 1: actually be helpful for people who have psychiatric diagnoses. The

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Speaker 1: most sort of advanced research I can think of now

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Speaker 1: is m d m A assisted therapy for the treatment

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Speaker 1: of post traumatic stress disorder. So most of you, I

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Speaker 1: imagine know that m d m A is also known

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Speaker 1: as as ecstasy or molly. It's methylene dioxy methamphetamine. It

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Speaker 1: is typically used, certainly in research context. It is used

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Speaker 1: alongside of psychotherapy to make the therapy go deeper and

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Speaker 1: be more efficient and more effective. So we're seeing m

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Speaker 1: d m A therapy as a potential treatment for psychiatric

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Speaker 1: diagnoses like post traumatic stress disorder, possibly also for anorexia,

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Speaker 1: possibly also for the kind of existential anks and anxiety

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Speaker 1: that comes with a terminal diagnosis. Say you just found

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Speaker 1: out that you have cancer and you're trying to sort

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Speaker 1: of wrap your head around not existing anymore. So there

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Speaker 1: are ongoing clinical studies looking at using m DUMA to

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Speaker 1: treat psychiatric diagnoses. And there's also ongoing clinical studies looking

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Speaker 1: at psilocybin, the active ingredient in quote magic mushrooms, to

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Speaker 1: treat some psychiatric disorders. So there's sort of a wide

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Speaker 1: range of an interaction between substances and mental health. You know,

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Speaker 1: one of the things I always like to remind people

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Speaker 1: is when you're looking at the m d m A

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Speaker 1: research or the psilocybin research, keep in mind that anybody

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Speaker 1: with a history of psychosis, anybody who carries the diagnosis

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Speaker 1: of schizophrenia or has a history of being psychotic, and

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Speaker 1: even people who have a first degree relative who has

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Speaker 1: a history being psychotic, like say you have a sister

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Speaker 1: with schizophrenia or a father who gets psychotic when he's manic,

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Speaker 1: You're not going to be allowed into these studies. We

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Speaker 1: just don't know yet how what the interaction of psychedelics

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Speaker 1: is going to be with people who have got sort

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Speaker 1: of chronic, persistent mental illness. So I think it's safer

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Speaker 1: to talk about anxiety and depression. But when we start

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Speaker 1: talking about bipolar disorder or schizoaffective or schizophrenia, some of

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Speaker 1: the really sort of heavy duty psychiatric diagnoses. It is

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Speaker 1: probably safer to not partake while we figure out what

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Speaker 1: the effects are going to be. Bellvue is a New

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Speaker 1: York City hospital, which makes you probably seeing a lot

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Speaker 1: more crack cocaine, you know, back in the nineties early

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Speaker 1: two thousands. But I mean, could the Saint thing about

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Speaker 1: meth amphetamine and people who are smoking or injecting it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's really important to mention because you know, there's some

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Speaker 1: sort of unwritten law that like east of the Mississippi

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Speaker 1: you're gonna see more cocaine, and west of the Mississippi

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Speaker 1: you're gonna see more methamphetamine. We never really had a

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Speaker 1: huge methamphetamine problem in New York City. Certainly when I

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Speaker 1: was at Bellevue, which was like mid nineties to mid

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Speaker 1: two thousand's, there wasn't a lot of methamphetamine. But we

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Speaker 1: would occasionally see somebody again who was coming off off

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Speaker 1: of a run or a binge where they've been using

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Speaker 1: methamphetamine for several days, where they would be psychotic or

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Speaker 1: paranoid or agitated. And keep in mind that part of

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Speaker 1: that agitation and psychosis just comes from sleep deprivation. You

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Speaker 1: keep somebody awake for two or three nights, even without drugs,

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Speaker 1: you're going to have psychiatric symptoms in that person. So

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Speaker 1: it's just that much worse if you're also giving a

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Speaker 1: dopamine agonis. But you definitely can get psychotic from methamphetamine

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Speaker 1: US and typically the psychosis takes long to clear to

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Speaker 1: go away than it does from cocaine, and that may

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Speaker 1: just be because the half life of methymphetamine is significantly

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Speaker 1: longer than the half life for cocaine. The only other

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Speaker 1: form of methamphetamine that I've heard about on and off

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Speaker 1: over the years was something that people called ice, which

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Speaker 1: is basically like the crack version of meth where it's

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Speaker 1: like a smokable methamphetamine. Obviously, people can smoke methamphetamine, they

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Speaker 1: can snort it, they can inject it. UM So I

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Speaker 1: don't know about it like a particularly super strong meth

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Speaker 1: but I honestly think the one we have is sort

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Speaker 1: of is strong enough. Um it can really rereak havoc

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Speaker 1: on your reality testing, not quite knowing what's real and

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Speaker 1: what's not. What about for people who are borderline or schizophrenic. Well,

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Speaker 1: we normally tend to think stay away from psychedelics. Um

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Speaker 1: is that generally the rule? But are there also cases

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Speaker 1: where it actually can be therapeutic? Any? Yeah, Well, I

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Speaker 1: mean the first the first answer, the first layer of

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Speaker 1: the ant sir, is we don't have all the data yet.

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Speaker 1: Then the second layer is that if you have a chronic,

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Speaker 1: persistent mental illness or a very serious diagnosis like bipolar

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Speaker 1: or schizo effective or schizophrenia, it is probably safer to

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Speaker 1: not engage with these drugs. That being said, there is

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Speaker 1: definitely research going on. I mean, I'm particularly interested in

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Speaker 1: whether m D m A may be able to help

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Speaker 1: the negative symptoms of schizophrenia. There was a researcher, Burnt Angrist,

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Speaker 1: many decades ago who actually gave methemphetamine to people with

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Speaker 1: schizophrenia who had negative symptoms. So, I know when people

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Speaker 1: think of schizophrenia, they think of somebody here in voices,

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Speaker 1: or being paranoid, or being disorganized. Those things are all true,

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Speaker 1: but those are the positive symptoms. The negative symptoms, which

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Speaker 1: are harder to treat with medication and more sort of pervasive,

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Speaker 1: is things like not wanting to do anything, not having

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Speaker 1: a lot of motivation, not thinking a lot, not speaking

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Speaker 1: a lot. You know, you're just kind of like a

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Speaker 1: bump on a log. And it may be that giving

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Speaker 1: m d m A assisted therapy can get people a

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Speaker 1: little bit more motivated, a little bit more engaged, and

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Speaker 1: also potentially to have more of a therapeutic alliance with

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Speaker 1: their therapist. So there are some very small pilot studies

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Speaker 1: in early stages of planning to look at whether m

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Speaker 1: d M A might be helpful and negative symptoms in schizophrenia.

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Speaker 1: In terms of bipolar, I just think people are kind

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Speaker 1: of holding off. But I know there's one person who

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Speaker 1: feels like ayahuasca might be helpful and bipolar. But I

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Speaker 1: know of multiple case studies and people who have gotten

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Speaker 1: destabilized from ayahuasca. So I think that if you're bipolar,

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Speaker 1: and if you have any history of getting manic, you

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Speaker 1: really want to be very very careful and probably air

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Speaker 1: on not taking these medicines because they are potentially destabilizing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, even cannabis can be destabilizing in some of

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Speaker 1: these patient populations. M You know, there was this article

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Speaker 1: in late May in New York Times about new approaches

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Speaker 1: emerging in terms of mental illness and about patients and

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Speaker 1: patient advocates saying, you know, rather than trying to suppress

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Speaker 1: the voices we're hearing, maybe it's more about learning to

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Speaker 1: live with these voices. I saw that. I saw that

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Speaker 1: article and this this was a really brave, unusual article

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Speaker 1: that they're talking about that there are groups of people

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Speaker 1: who carry a diagnosis of schizophrenia who don't want to

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Speaker 1: take the medications and want to find other ways to

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Speaker 1: manage their symptoms. So the big risk when you hear voices,

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Speaker 1: it really comes down to who you think is speaking

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Speaker 1: to and whether you're going to do what they say

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Speaker 1: or not. And you know, the joke I sort of

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Speaker 1: make is like, you know, usually do what your mother

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Speaker 1: tells you, right, So if it's your mother's voice and

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Speaker 1: she's saying, you know, kill someone, and that that's really

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Speaker 1: a much more dangerous situation. Then like let's say you

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Speaker 1: think it's the voice of the devil, but you know

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Speaker 1: you're a good Christian or something, and then you're not

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Speaker 1: going to be following the voices. So this idea of

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Speaker 1: like a delusional framework within like what is the context

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Speaker 1: of these voices? How do you perceive the voices? I

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Speaker 1: had a patient who bit off his fingertips because he

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Speaker 1: thought that it was the voice of Buddha telling him

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Speaker 1: to prove his worth as a disciple to Buddha, and

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Speaker 1: he felt that this was a way to prove his

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Speaker 1: worth as a disciple. He clearly believed that the voice

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Speaker 1: was the voice of buddhas So who who you think

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Speaker 1: is speaking to has a lot to do with how

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Speaker 1: you're going to behave. It's a complicated, sort of dangerous

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Speaker 1: area to talk about somebody who's psychotic, who doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to take medicine. But the bottom line is that you know,

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Speaker 1: this is America, and we have a lot of freedoms here,

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Speaker 1: We have a lot of civil liberties here. And I

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Speaker 1: don't think people should be medicated against their will under

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Speaker 1: any circumstances. But the truth is, at Bellevue, there was

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Speaker 1: a certain amount of people getting medicated against their will

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Speaker 1: where they were dangerous to themselves or they were dangerous

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Speaker 1: to other people's and at least temporarily, we had to

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Speaker 1: sedate them just to sort of defuse the situation, to

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Speaker 1: make things safer. So I was really intrigued by that article.

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Speaker 1: I like that there are places, you know, there are

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Speaker 1: places in Western Massachusetts that if you have schizophrenia and

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Speaker 1: you don't want to take medication, that maybe you can

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Speaker 1: go and they will help you learn how to live

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Speaker 1: with your voices or how to manage your symptoms without meds.

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Speaker 1: It's nice to have all of these options. Well, it

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Speaker 1: made me think also just about you know, m d

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Speaker 1: n A assisted psychotherapy, because you know, a big part

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Speaker 1: of m d n A is the ability to listen

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Speaker 1: in ways that one does not normally listen to a lover, partner, friend,

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Speaker 1: whatever it might be. And I was wondering, you know,

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Speaker 1: to imagine m d NA with people in schizophrenia. Has

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Speaker 1: anybody ever tried that? Or would one never get submission

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Speaker 1: to do such a study? So I edited a book

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Speaker 1: about m d m A called Ecstasy the Complete Guide,

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Speaker 1: back in two thousand and one. I have a chapter

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Speaker 1: on using m d m A in psychiatry and a

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Speaker 1: chapter on using m DMA in the treatment of schizophrenia.

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Speaker 1: And in that chapter I told the story of I

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Speaker 1: think it was a four sort of case studies. You know,

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Speaker 1: people who had gotten in touch with me, people who

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Speaker 1: had a diagnosis of schizophrenia, who had had m d

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Speaker 1: m A, who had a respite from their symptoms, their

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Speaker 1: voices got quieter, their paranoia came down, they felt that

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Speaker 1: sort of heart opening toward their family or toward their caregivers.

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Speaker 1: So I have been saying, you know, for thirty years,

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Speaker 1: like this is something we should look at. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I also talked about the very first time I ever

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Speaker 1: took M d m A, my head was so quiet.

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Speaker 1: It's not that I hear voices, but you know, there's

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Speaker 1: a little bit of chitter chat to chat, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's like a little inner, inner monologue going on. And

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Speaker 1: when the M D M A came on, I was

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Speaker 1: like luxuriating and how quiet my head was. And one

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Speaker 1: of the first things that I thought of was, wouldn't

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Speaker 1: this be lovely for somebody who's hearing voices to just

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Speaker 1: have that quiet, Like, even if it didn't do anything else,

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Speaker 1: even if it just gave you quiet for an hour

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Speaker 1: or two, that would be a lovely gift to give someone.

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Speaker 1: So these studies haven't been done. There is a schizophrenia

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Speaker 1: researcher named Stephen Martyr at U c l A I believe,

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Speaker 1: who is starting to look at this. And there's another

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Speaker 1: schizophrena researcher named John caine on Long Island, and they

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Speaker 1: are going to start to look at whether m d

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Speaker 1: m A might be helpful. But the first group of patients,

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Speaker 1: and that my recommendation was find people who have a

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Speaker 1: lot of negative symptoms, because I don't think you're going

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Speaker 1: to make them worse. But we just don't know. I

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Speaker 1: guess the only thing I would maybe at, you know,

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Speaker 1: she asked about drug policy, how how drug policy is

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Speaker 1: reflected in this intersection between mental health and substance abuse,

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Speaker 1: And I would say that we are seeing, first of all,

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Speaker 1: many sort of municipalities and cities around the United States

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Speaker 1: America are decriminalizing possession of some psychedelics or at least

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Speaker 1: de prioritizing any sort of persecution from a legal perspective.

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Speaker 1: But then you have Oregon, which is actually really trying

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Speaker 1: to formulate a new way of thinking about psilocybin mushrooms

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Speaker 1: as be therapeutic. And Oregon is starting to look at

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Speaker 1: using using psilocybin therapeutically in various patient populations, not just

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Speaker 1: post traumatic stress disorder. So I think that is a

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Speaker 1: real example of a big change in our drug policies,

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Speaker 1: going from you don't take this, it's dangerous it's gonna

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Speaker 1: give you psychiatric symptoms to you may be able to

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Speaker 1: use this to ease some of your psychiatric symptoms. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's very interesting in Oregon now because I think there's

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Speaker 1: a very serious, mature effort to try to make sure

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Speaker 1: the rollout of this Oregon psilocybin you know, medical psilocybin initiative.

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Speaker 1: You know, it kind of rolls out effectively and carefully,

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Speaker 1: and I think there are plans under way to do

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Speaker 1: similar sorts of initiatives in other states. Yeah. Well, I

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Speaker 1: will tell you that I I was contacted by some

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Speaker 1: policymakers in Washington State who were really watching what Oregon

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Speaker 1: was doing and thought that they would go next. We'll

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Speaker 1: be talking more after we hear this add Okay, let's

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Speaker 1: go to question number two. Hey, I am a gay

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Speaker 1: man in New York, and I've been noticing a growing

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Speaker 1: trend in the gay community here around the prevalence of

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Speaker 1: the drug g hb UM. I've always known the combination

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Speaker 1: of g HP and alcohol can be deadly, and I

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Speaker 1: guess what I'm now seeing is men swearing off alcohol

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Speaker 1: entirely and instead taking g HP regularly, almost with the

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Speaker 1: same frequency as just regular social drinking. Many of these

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Speaker 1: guys are even citing their physical health and their ability

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Speaker 1: to stay in shape and avoid hangovers as the motivation.

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Speaker 1: I guess I was wondering if you could talk to

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Speaker 1: the overall health and safety around g HB. I mean,

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Speaker 1: obviously alcohol is unhealthy for a whole host of reasons,

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Speaker 1: but is g HB significantly better? What can you tell

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Speaker 1: us about g h B? And it's you know, safety margin,

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Speaker 1: safety levels and risks. Well, first of all, it is

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Speaker 1: kind of funny how things come around. It was very

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Speaker 1: big at the nine Dies, and then it somehow sort

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Speaker 1: of fell off the map, and now it's coming back around.

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Speaker 1: So look in terms of safety. Unfortunately, and you know,

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Speaker 1: this is often the case that because of our drug policy,

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Speaker 1: because of our nation's drug policy, these things end up

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Speaker 1: less safe and more dangerous. The biggest issue with g

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Speaker 1: HB is that you don't always know what you've got, right.

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Speaker 1: It's a clear, colorless liquid. I mean typically it's a

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Speaker 1: powder that is dissolved into water. How much powder and

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Speaker 1: how much water is going to decide how strong that is.

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Speaker 1: So if you haven't made this batch yourself, you're really

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Speaker 1: relying on somebody else to figure out how many grams

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Speaker 1: is in how many milli leaders, and that's gonna have

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Speaker 1: everything to do with how potent it is and what

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Speaker 1: your effect is. But it's true that you shouldn't mix

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Speaker 1: JHB with alcohol, and it may even be true that

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Speaker 1: if you know exactly what your doses that it is

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Speaker 1: sort of harm reduction to use g HB instead of alcohol. However,

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Speaker 1: the harm comes from not knowing what your dosage is.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's not legal to buy, so you have

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Speaker 1: to kind of go to the black market or at

429
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 1: least a gray market when you're purchasing these things. So

430
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 1: you just back in the nineties, I think it was,

431
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: and it was more use and I think DA or

432
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 1: whoever you know, then scheduled it in two thousand one

433
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: or so, right, there was a time when when you

434
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 1: could buy it online and it went by all sorts

435
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 1: of names. It was like a computer keyboard cleaner. That

436
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: was one of the ways, like clean your keyboard with

437
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 1: this special cleanser. So there were ways to buy it online.

438
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 1: So because it's clear and colorless, someone can put it

439
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 1: in your drink and you're not going to know it,

440
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: so and that way it could be dangerous. But like

441
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: let's say you knew exactly how much you were taking.

442
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 1: I still sort of take issue with this idea of

443
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 1: regular use. There's don't thing called g b L, which

444
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 1: uh I know that some bodybuilders were using g b L,

445
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 1: you know, scoops of g b L in sort of

446
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 1: a smoothie as a way to build muscle. And I

447
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,719
Speaker 1: did want to see a guy at Bellevue who abruptly

448
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 1: stopped using g b L and was completely delirious and

449
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 1: basically psychotic because he was in withdrawal. So I believe

450
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: that it is safe for me to say that if

451
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 1: somebody is using large amounts of g h B day

452
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: after day after day and they abruptly discontinue it, there

453
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 1: is going to be a withdrawal syndrome that is going

454
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 1: to be pretty hard to predict exactly what's going to

455
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,360
Speaker 1: happen for user. So the big issue at g h B. Yes,

456
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: it makes you feel sort of floaty and less anxious,

457
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: um and maybe a little separated from your body, but

458
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: it higher doses. It's basically just gonna put you to sleep.

459
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,640
Speaker 1: It induces an un arousable sleep, which which some people

460
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: will call a coma because it is really hard to

461
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 1: get somebody out of the state of sleep, but you

462
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 1: do eventually wake up. So it's just really comes down

463
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 1: to the dosage and safety, knowing what you have, knowing

464
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 1: what the dosage is, figuring out what works for you

465
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: where you maybe feel a little relaxed but you're not comatose.

466
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 1: It is dangerous to mix with alcohol, and it is

467
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: dangerous to use regularly. I think I would say, I

468
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,479
Speaker 1: don't know, Ethan what you want to add that, well,

469
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: you know, I just think you know, we obviously we

470
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: say that, you know, so many overdose fatalities, especially before

471
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 1: the advent of fentanyl. We're not actually, you know, pure

472
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 1: heroine or pharmaceutical overdoses. They were typically drugs being mixed

473
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: with alcohol or ben zones. And of course, I think

474
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,959
Speaker 1: when quick could say is that when when mixes opioids

475
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: and alcohol in lower doses, it can be a remarkable high.

476
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: And the danger is is that if you simply go

477
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,439
Speaker 1: double or triple that it may stop you breathing. And

478
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: I wonder what g HB is. It's similar that g

479
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 1: HB combined with alcohol and very low doses may give

480
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 1: especially nice high, but that the toxicity ratio you know

481
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: the amount that will kill you. That's you know, that

482
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,640
Speaker 1: much more than the normal dose is a very risky thing.

483
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know exactly, you know, the bottom

484
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: line is you have to keep breathing right and if

485
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: you're if you're really drunk and you're sort of face

486
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: down on a pillow, you can stop breathing. And you know,

487
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 1: your brain is set up to always remind you to breathe,

488
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 1: and there's conscious reminders and sort of unconscious reminders that

489
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 1: you keep breathing. And when you start combining depressants, you

490
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: lose the conscious reminder to breathe, and then eventually you

491
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: also lose the unconscious reminder. Now, opiates are very particular

492
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: and that they really suppress the drive to breathe more

493
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: than most other drugs. Obiit's like even in sort of

494
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 1: safe medical dosages, you're breathing less frequently. So combining any

495
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: depressants and you increase that risk of not breathing. Like

496
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: Heath Ledger was was a terrible accident. It was an

497
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: accidental overdose. He wasn't trying to kill himself, and he

498
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: had a number, Yeah, he had a number of depressants

499
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 1: in his system. He also had a lung infection, and

500
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: he was also faced down on the bed. It's if

501
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: any of those things were different, if he didn't have

502
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: a pneumonia, if he was lying on his side, if

503
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 1: he had taken one fewer depressant than he would probably

504
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 1: still be with us. So that it's it's often a

505
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 1: confluence of events, multiple drugs, and other sort of extenuing

506
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: circumstances that that lead to these problems. So let's go

507
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 1: to the next question. Okay, Hey, Julian Ethan, this is

508
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: Matt from Chattanooga, Tennessee. Big Fann, you both, thank you

509
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,719
Speaker 1: for everything that you do. My question is do you

510
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: view the war on drugs as a house of cards

511
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: that could topple if we chip away at it consistently?

512
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: For example, m d m A becoming a medicine, psilocybin,

513
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: mushrooms gaining popularity and even decriminalization in some places, and

514
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: federal legalization of cannabis seemingly around the corner. What do

515
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: think the tipping point is or is it going to

516
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: be more of a bitter fight to the end incrementally

517
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: substance by substance, state by state. Let me know what

518
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: you think. Okay, Well, Julie made I'll start off on

519
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: this one and then hand it over to you. Yeah,

520
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: I definitely want you to start off. I mean, I'll

521
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: tell you with the line I've used for many, many

522
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: years is that when it comes to ending drug prohibition,

523
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: there is no eighteenth Amendment of drug prohibition that will

524
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: repeal this alcohol prohibition was with the twenty first Amendment,

525
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: And there is no Berrilin Wall of drug prohibition that's

526
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: gonna come crumbling down in the way the Berlin Wall,

527
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: did you know, back in was or whatever exactly that was.

528
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: So I think it is inevitably an incremental process. I

529
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: think we can see very clearly the ways in which

530
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: starting with the legalization of marijuana for medical purposes back

531
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: in ninety six, first through the initiative process and then

532
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: through the state legislative process, really did transform the broader

533
00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: popular discussion around marijuana in ways that he you know,

534
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: result in marijuana getting legalized first in Colorado and Washington,

535
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: uh in twelve and now and I think nineteen states

536
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: around the country. And in fact, I've oftime said that

537
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: if you ask, how could it be that the United States,

538
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: which was the great champion of the drug war for

539
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: so long, including the War on Marijuana. Nonetheless, became the

540
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: world leader on decriminalizing and legalizing marijuana, first for medical

541
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: and other purposes. It was because we did that sort

542
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: of incremental process with medical marijuana and then moving into

543
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: marijuana decriminate, attacking marijuana arrest, and the ultimate legalization. And

544
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: you can see to some extent the ways in which

545
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: that has evolved. It's clearly inspired some of the reforms

546
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: that are going on on psychedelics, especially the decriminalization element.

547
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: It's also inspired the push for a broader decriminalization of

548
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: all drug possession. Right Oregon did not just legalize psychedelic

549
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: therapy in but they also became the first state to

550
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: basically legalize the Portugal model of decriminalization where nobody goes

551
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: to jail ample for drug possession. Now how far that

552
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: goes and how that relates for the fentinel crisis going

553
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: on now you see legislators introducing all kinds of stupid

554
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: drug war legislation to increase penalties, impose mandatory minimum penalties

555
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: to punish the boyfriend who gave it to a girlfriend

556
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: or vice versa where one of them, you know, died

557
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: of an overdose. You know, there is, there is a

558
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: spillover effect. It does carry that way, but I think

559
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: it's going to be a long time process, and they're

560
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: gonna be periods where we roll backwards and the pendulum

561
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 1: swings back the other way, as it you know and

562
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: inevitably does in any area of social policy. But what

563
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: are your thoughts. I agree with everything you said. Just

564
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: like cannabis, which went sort of state by state, first

565
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: a lot of medical cannabis, then more legalization, I think

566
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: you're going to see the same thing with psychedelics, where

567
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: it's going to kind of go state by state and

568
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: first you're going to see medical and de krim and

569
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: it's going to take a longer time to do legalization.

570
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: I also, I know when it comes to the sort

571
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: of the poisoning overdose crisis, people want to do something,

572
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: and the knee jerk reaction is just to do what,

573
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: you know, what they've always done before, with mandatory minimums

574
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: and sort of you know, cranking up the rhetoric. I

575
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: am less, sort of optimistic. I think just about our

576
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: government in general and how effective or efficient our our

577
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: government is going to be these days, and you know,

578
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: some of it depends on the mid terms. And what

579
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: happens in the next election. You know, this is a

580
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: very slow process. I have been championing cannabis and m

581
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: D m A and psychedelics since the mid eighties, you know,

582
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,719
Speaker 1: it's like thirty something years, knowing that it was going

583
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: to be a slow process, knowing I had to be

584
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: very patient, and that if I wanted to be alive

585
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: to see like the fruits of my labors, I was

586
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: going to have to follow an anti inflammatory diet and

587
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: watch my blood pressure in my cholesterol. Um, it's a

588
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: it's a long game. It's a slow game, and it

589
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: is definitely fits and starts, and one step forward to

590
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: steps back. I mean, the major area we need to

591
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: see some big reform now is in dealing with the

592
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: overdose crisis and the fact that a hundred thousand people

593
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: died last year, the majority involving fent at all, basically

594
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: an unregulated drug supply, invroving a very dangerous form of

595
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: an opioid, very highly potent one. You see British Columbia

596
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: just recently, I think in early June, getting permission from

597
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: the federal government of Canada to basically implement a safe

598
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: supply approach where a decriminalization approach, whereby people are not

599
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: going to be getting busted for possessing small amounts of

600
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: any drug. Now, the activists will say the amounts that

601
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: they allow her too small, and it's still still too restrictive,

602
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: and it's time limited and all this sort of stuff.

603
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: But I think if there's gonna be a significant movement

604
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: in the US, the next stage will probably be in

605
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: people getting more innovative and in responding to the overdose crisis.

606
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: By great frustration has been that we've not seen you know,

607
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: heroin maintenance, heroin prescribing trials going on in the United States,

608
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: like like we've in Europe, you know, for the less

609
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,479
Speaker 1: thirty years, to the point where this is now national

610
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: policy in many European countries, but still nobody in the

611
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: US is doing that. But I do think that could

612
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: be the next frontier. I would really like to see

613
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 1: that happen. I mean, I have been pushing for supervised

614
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,760
Speaker 1: injection facilities for a very long time, and there's finally

615
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: one open in New York. But I think anything that

616
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: we can do to create a safer supply, you know, again,

617
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: it's because of our nation's drug policy that we are

618
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 1: having some of these problems, So it makes sense that

619
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 1: that's where we have to have some of the solutions

620
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: is through problems. Well, next question, Hi, My question is

621
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: is if there's any research into tolerance and also perhaps

622
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 1: withdrawal symptoms from cannabis. Use my own personal experience, and

623
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 1: this is in recent years. Is I only need a

624
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: small fraction of a Graham smoking it to yet a

625
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: very desirable high effect, like I'm talking like four or

626
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 1: five hits in a bowl. And I know other people

627
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: who smoke massive, massive amounts. For me, I bought an

628
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,879
Speaker 1: ounce of medical grade uh, you know, medical marijuana, and

629
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 1: and it actually lasted me an entire year. Uh. And

630
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 1: I know other people who might go through that in

631
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 1: you know, perhaps a month. And what is it that's

632
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: different about people? Why does my physical tolerance for the

633
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: drugs seem to reset every weeking day? Why do other

634
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: people need massive amounts? And and you know, is there

635
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 1: much research going on? Has the research been done? I

636
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: also when I stopped, I had no physical withdrawal symptoms.

637
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: And of course I know other people have reported significant

638
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: you know, sleep disruption, appetite disruption and everything else. So

639
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 1: so what's the difference? And I the special snowflake or

640
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: are the other people a typical ones? Thanks well, Julie.

641
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: As the editor of a book called The Pot Book,

642
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: what's your answer to this fellow's questions, We are all

643
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 1: special snowflakes, I guess would be the first answer. So

644
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: there has been some clinical research on cannabis tolerance and withdrawal.

645
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 1: Most of it came out of um a unit at

646
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: at Columbia Hospital in New York City where they would

647
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 1: keep people on the unit and then give them cannabis

648
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 1: a lot and then abruptly stop and see how they did.

649
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: And they were able to show for some people there

650
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 1: were withdrawal symptoms along the lines of irritability, more difficulty

651
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 1: initiating sleep, less of an appetite. They're pretty short lived.

652
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 1: They're not in any way dangerous. I mean, I always

653
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 1: one of our mind people. If you're a heavy drinker

654
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: and you drink every single day and you abruptly stopped drinking,

655
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: that is potentially a life threatening situation. It's very medically dangerous.

656
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: There is a chance that you can have seizures, and

657
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: if you start having seized years, there's about a thirty

658
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 1: percent chance that you will not stop having seizures and

659
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: you will actually die. So if you are heavily addicted

660
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: to alcohol and you abruptly stop, that is potentially fatal.

661
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 1: So if you compare that with some irritability and lack

662
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: of appetite and difficulty falling asleep for a night or two,

663
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: it's just nowhere. It's not not even comparable. But I

664
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: also want to talk about this issue of tolerance. Um

665
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: Some people talk about trying to take a tolerance break

666
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 1: where they stop smoking for some amount of time so

667
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 1: that they can sort of reset and use a lower dose.

668
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 1: And there's a cannabis doctor in Maine, Dustin Sulac, who

669
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: has sort of figured out that for most people they

670
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: really only need to stop for about four full days

671
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: and that is enough to reset the tolerance. So some

672
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 1: people are more tolerant than others. A lot of people

673
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: switch between strains which they think will help to delay

674
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: or defer the tolerance from happening. But I think it's

675
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: safe to say that it's not clinically significant. It's not

676
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: medically significant. If people have a withdrawal, it is not

677
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 1: in any way dangerous, And lots of people don't have tolerance,

678
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 1: don't have withdrawal, I think to some degree it depends

679
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 1: on how much you smoke and how frequently you smoke.

680
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 1: Is that is the case with any tolerance or withdrawal,

681
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,839
Speaker 1: But it is certainly possible that some people are more

682
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 1: sensitive to tolerance and withdrawal than other people are. And

683
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things they showed in like

684
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 1: cannabis with driving is that people who are regular smokers

685
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 1: being intoxicated with cannabis didn't really have a negative impact

686
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 1: on their driving. But if you had somebody who was

687
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: not a regular smoker who was having a large response

688
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 1: to the cannabis and wasn't used to those effects, it

689
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: would have more of an impact on their driving. I

690
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 1: also want to say one thing about dreams and remembering dreams,

691
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: because I've heard this from so many patients. If you

692
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: are a regular pot smoker, you you don't always dream,

693
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,240
Speaker 1: or you think you're not dreaming, or you don't remember

694
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 1: your dreams. And then when people abruptly stop, they will

695
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: report very vivid dreams and they will report remembering their dreams.

696
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,359
Speaker 1: I've heard this from a number of people, so I

697
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 1: am assuming it is true. I don't know if there's

698
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 1: any medical literature on it, but it is sort of

699
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 1: one of the more interesting things to me about withdrawal

700
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: is that you have more intense dreams or you remember

701
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,760
Speaker 1: your dreams. I'm curious also when it comes how dose

702
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,760
Speaker 1: connects to this. If you're using it much higher doses

703
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: on a regular basis, is it more likely that you'll

704
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 1: have more substantial withdrawal symptoms after that or is this

705
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,439
Speaker 1: independent of the level of dose. Well, based on Louis

706
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 1: tolerance and withdrawal works, you should have more of issues

707
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,439
Speaker 1: if you're smoking more. You know, if you're a heavy

708
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 1: smoker and you're smoking more frequently, you're more more likely

709
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,359
Speaker 1: I think, to get withdrawal symptoms. Then if you're not

710
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 1: smoking a lot or you're not smoking frequently as with

711
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,800
Speaker 1: other drugs. To me, though, it's a little bit of

712
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: a moot point because it's not like you really see

713
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: these things chemically, you know, or clinically. It's not like

714
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 1: vomit the psyche are I have somebody coming in and

715
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: they're an acute cannabis withdrawal and you know they're in

716
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: this life threatening state. It's just it doesn't rise to

717
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: the level of being an issue clinically or medically. Let's

718
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: take a break here and go to an ad do

719
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, now with all this stuff emerging

720
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: with tirpenes and things like this, if you hold the

721
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 1: THHC level of the marijuana of different types of marijuana constant,

722
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 1: but you're shifting around the turpines and other things like that,

723
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 1: is there any research suggesting that when you switch to

724
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 1: a different type or brand or type of marijuana with

725
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: a different set of turpines and all the other things

726
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: that you know, affect the flavor and taste of the marijuana,

727
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 1: that it may actually get you high. Yeah. I mean,

728
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: that's totally what I was saying about, like switching strains

729
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,399
Speaker 1: like fence. It's medical cannabis patients that really need their

730
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: medicine every day. Sometimes they will be told to switch

731
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 1: strains around a little bit so that they can avoid tolerance.

732
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,359
Speaker 1: H So that would you're saying, I have to ask

733
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: you this question. Actually, you know, for me, um, you know,

734
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 1: as I've got a little older, I noticed that my

735
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,879
Speaker 1: body doesn't tolerate alcohol quite as well, and I don't

736
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 1: enjoy drinking as much as I used. I might have

737
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: maybe a glass, but having multiple doesn't feel right anymore.

738
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 1: So I might use five milligrams an edible marijuana just

739
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: for a sort of social to be in a social environment.

740
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 1: And I might take ten milligrams if I was going

741
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 1: to go for a long massage or something like that.

742
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 1: And you know, if and if if it's a cannabis

743
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 1: infused dinner. I had the cannabis chef Nicki Stewart on

744
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 1: some months ago and she was talking about how you know,

745
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:48,879
Speaker 1: if you're eating it during the course of of course

746
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 1: of a meal. You know, people can take thirty milligrams,

747
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 1: maybe even more, and it doesn't have the impact of

748
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: swallowing fifty milligram gummy or something like that at one time.

749
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 1: But then I know a couple of people who are

750
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 1: basically consuming a thousand millah graham's a gram of th

751
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 1: HC daily And these are very high functioning people. And

752
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: one of the most brilliant human beings I've ever known

753
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: is now consuming between three thousand and five thousand milligrams

754
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 1: of th HC daily. And I mean, there's absolutely no

755
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,879
Speaker 1: research out there right about what kind of effect this has,

756
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: whether it's negative or beneficial or I mean, do we

757
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,280
Speaker 1: know anything about No. I'm I am really not familiar

758
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: with those high doses. I'm definitely familiar with high dose

759
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 1: CBD in the psychiatric literature and that being potentially beneficial

760
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: even for things like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia. Like most

761
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: people when they take CBD, they may take like five

762
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 1: or fifteen or twenty five milligrams, but the psychiatric literature

763
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 1: people are taking six d eight hundred or a thousand milligrams,

764
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,240
Speaker 1: which is a gram. But I actually haven't heard about

765
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: these ultra high th HC doses, but I know that

766
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: you can build up to any dose that you can,

767
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: you know, be tolerant. And in terms of like the dinner,

768
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 1: the infused dinner, I think if it's over several hours

769
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 1: and you're eating, it's gonna sort of slow down the

770
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 1: absorption of how much t HC is going to get

771
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:15,399
Speaker 1: into your system. So it's again it's like you're saying,

772
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:18,320
Speaker 1: you're not taking it all at once. When you orally

773
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 1: ingest th HC, your liver creates a new chemical which

774
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 1: is eleven hydroxy th HC, and eleven hydroxy takes longer

775
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: to come on, last longer, and is more psychedelic than

776
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 1: th HC itself. And one other thing I want to say,

777
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 1: just in case we've got any real kind of wonky

778
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 1: nerds listening who care about receptors. You know, the five

779
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 1: H T two A receptor, which is the receptor that

780
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,839
Speaker 1: is sort of tickled by most psychedelics. If you have

781
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,359
Speaker 1: enough th HC, if you take a high enough dose

782
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: of th HC, you will start to tickle that five

783
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: H T two A receptor. Because the cannabis receptor, the

784
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 1: c B one receptor UH makes a receptor pair with

785
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 1: the five H T two A upter, and those two

786
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 1: receptors together they make what's called the dimer the cannabis

787
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 1: receptor c B one and the serotonin two A receptor.

788
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,320
Speaker 1: When they make a dimer. That is one of the

789
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 1: reasons why higher dose t HC ends up feeling more psychedelic,

790
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 1: is that you are actually agonizing that psychedelic receptor, the

791
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 1: serotonin two A. Okay, well, in that highly technical note,

792
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 1: which I appreciate, let's turn to the next question. Hi,

793
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 1: I just listened to the episode with Brian ear on

794
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: Love Drugs. They really liked it, but there's something missing there,

795
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,240
Speaker 1: and that is, of all the drugs they talked about,

796
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 1: what they didn't talk about was cannabis, which is perhaps

797
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: the most popular aphrategi act of all. So that's my question,

798
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:55,439
Speaker 1: what about cannabis when it comes to Love Drugs? Thank you,

799
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: bye bye, Julia. I'll tell you. I mean when I

800
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,919
Speaker 1: interviewed this from Biolysis is Brian was fascinating his book

801
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 1: Love Drugs, and it covered a whole spectrum of things, right,

802
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: including not just peep M D M A and things

803
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: like that, or alcohol for that matter, but also the

804
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: ways in which people can use different types of drugs,

805
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 1: or their studies that you can forget unpleasant memories, things

806
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 1: like that. But at the very end, I said, what

807
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 1: about cannabis? And he said, yeah, I I left it out.

808
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: But what's your sense about you know, your professional sense, uh,

809
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,760
Speaker 1: the review of the literature sense about cannabis and love, Well,

810
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 1: it's it's so highly variable. First of all, people's reactions

811
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: to cannabis is very variable. I mean, you can put

812
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 1: five people in a circle sharing a joint and maybe

813
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 1: some people are gonna get horny, and some people last

814
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 1: thing they're gonna want to do is have sex. You know,

815
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,439
Speaker 1: there's tremendous variability from person to person when you're using

816
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: the same cannabis. And then if you've got two or

817
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: three different strains, you're going to have even more variability.

818
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: So the first thing I would say is hard to predict,

819
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 1: hard to control a lot of variables in that there

820
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 1: are so many different kinds of strains of cannabis, and

821
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 1: there are so many different people's responses. And I have

822
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 1: definitely heard from a number of women who tell me

823
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 1: that hash in particular, Hash seems to work better for

824
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,280
Speaker 1: them than cannabis as sort of a pro sexual agent.

825
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:14,320
Speaker 1: And I don't know if it's because the CBD t

826
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 1: HC ratio is a little bit more favorable in hash

827
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: than cannabis. But some people swear by using cannabis before

828
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: they have sex. I have a patient who she sort

829
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: of will only have sex with her husband if they smoke.

830
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 1: So some people need it, some people like it. Some

831
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 1: people find that it really gets in the way um.

832
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 1: Sometimes cannabis makes it more difficult to climax. Sometimes cannabis

833
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: puts you so much in your head and you're so

834
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 1: busy thinking thinking that you're not really in your body.

835
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,319
Speaker 1: You're not totally appreciating everything that your body is doing

836
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: for you. Some people get horny, but they can't climax.

837
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 1: And then the other thing I wanted to say about

838
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: cannabis was that for some people it's a real heart opener.

839
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: I have this experience a lot, like you know, I'll

840
00:46:58,320 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: be in a fight with Jeremy and I'll have a

841
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:01,839
Speaker 1: puffer two and then I will go right back up

842
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: to Dermy and just being a completely different open hearted

843
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 1: You're right, I'm wrong. I see, I see now what

844
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:10,320
Speaker 1: you're saying. Like, you know, I was so closed and

845
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 1: now I'm so open. So I think anything that sort

846
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,399
Speaker 1: of opens your heart, it is bound to help you

847
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 1: connect with somebody. But sex is super complicated, and you know,

848
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: for some people it is about heart opening and intimacy,

849
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:27,320
Speaker 1: and then for other people it's much more purely purely

850
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 1: physical and and there's no intimacy involved, you know. And

851
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: it really depends on your childhood experiences with sex or

852
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: how you were taught about masturbation, or if you masturbate,

853
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: or if you were taught that that was bad. You know.

854
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,320
Speaker 1: For some people having a drink or having some pot

855
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,320
Speaker 1: and they feel a little bit less inhibited, the brakes

856
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 1: are off, you know, and then that an opportunity to

857
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 1: have more pleasurable sex. But you need gas and brakes,

858
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,439
Speaker 1: you know. So I'm wondering, actually, if you and Brian

859
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: ever spoke about a compound called to c B, which

860
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 1: to me is sort of the most pro sexual of

861
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 1: the psychedelics. And I was wondering if maybe that came up.

862
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: I don't remember if we talked about two CP, and

863
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:11,320
Speaker 1: I don't know if I want to share my personal

864
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: experiences on this podcast, well, can you share anything about

865
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,799
Speaker 1: cannabis and sex? Then I guess that was well, I mean,

866
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 1: I'll tell you a funny story Julie. Years ago, before

867
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 1: marijuana was legal anywhere. This must have been I don't know,

868
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,919
Speaker 1: I'm guessing two thousand seven, eight nine, something like that.

869
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,240
Speaker 1: We're trying to figure out how to move public opinion

870
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 1: further along, and by by that period, I think there

871
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,879
Speaker 1: was beginning to be a slight majority of men who

872
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 1: were in favor of legalizing marijuana for adults. But there

873
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 1: was almost between five and sometimes almost ten point gender

874
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 1: gap in support for marijuana legalization, with men much more

875
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,839
Speaker 1: likely to support it. And so I came up with

876
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:54,800
Speaker 1: this idea, which was marijuana and sex, especially among older women.

877
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 1: And I knew anecdotally many women who were in their forties, fifties,

878
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:03,799
Speaker 1: sixties who say that basically that marijuana played an absolutely

879
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 1: essential role in their sexual and intimate relationship with their

880
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 1: husband of many decades, and they say, you know, but

881
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 1: for marijuana, we probably wouldn't been having sex anymore. Now.

882
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 1: In the end, I never proceeded with that. It would

883
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,840
Speaker 1: have been a hard campaign for DPAH Alliance as a

884
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 1: policy organization to launch. But I will say that anecdotally,

885
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: I've been struck by how many people, especially women I

886
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 1: have encountered, who just feel that cannabis and sex go

887
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:35,879
Speaker 1: hand in hand, like basically nothing else you asked before

888
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 1: about two c B, right, And in the book by

889
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 1: Sasha and Sikal right, and I think almost did a

890
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 1: disservice in that because she writes about when she and

891
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: Sasha are first experimenting with two c B and she

892
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: takes two c B and she falls into perhaps the

893
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:55,959
Speaker 1: most devastating depression in her life and just can't even

894
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,439
Speaker 1: pick herself emotionally up off the floor whatever. And then

895
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 1: Sasha in the other room and he comes in the

896
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 1: door and she sees him and he's like glowing in

897
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 1: her you know, because two CB is somewhat psychedelic and

898
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 1: all of a sudden thing flips in the other direction,

899
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 1: and she describes having the most extraordinary multi orgasmic sex

900
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 1: of her entire life with Sasha under the influence of

901
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,839
Speaker 1: two CB. And I think what happened was that then

902
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 1: people said, oh my god, let's just get some too CP,

903
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 1: and we'll have this amazing multi orgasmic sex. And of

904
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 1: course it doesn't just work like pivotal. Yeah. I mean,

905
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 1: I can say this much. My own personal experience was

906
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 1: that when it came to two C B and sex

907
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 1: that on the one hand, the negative side was that

908
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: the sen sile, the touch felt much clammy or not pleasant,

909
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: not appealing. On the other hand, there was a kind

910
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:51,799
Speaker 1: of colorization of sexual sensation that was sort of erotic

911
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: and pleasing and all that. But that was my own experience,

912
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 1: and I really said, varies dramatically from one person to

913
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 1: the next. Well, I will say I'm doing a lot

914
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 1: of consulting for psychedelic companies, and I have spoken to

915
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 1: a couple of companies that are really really looking at

916
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,879
Speaker 1: sort of women's sexual pleasure, and you know, to CB

917
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 1: is certainly one of the things that comes up as

918
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 1: as a possible sort of catalyst for this process, but

919
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 1: it's just too complicated for it to work in everybody,

920
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: you know. But I would say in general, I have

921
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:28,840
Speaker 1: sampled quite a few psychedelics and last forty something years

922
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,439
Speaker 1: and two CB is the only psychedelic that I've ever

923
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:36,880
Speaker 1: ingested where I would even consider feeling sexy, wanting to

924
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 1: have sex, like feeling horny, anything like. Usually it's just

925
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:43,799
Speaker 1: not even on the table. But it's also possible that

926
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:49,839
Speaker 1: I was very much influenced by pikal Okay, okay. So

927
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 1: let's go to the last question we have from our listeners.

928
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 1: Hiathan and Julia. I really appreciate the important work that

929
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 1: you're doing, and I love the show. If you had

930
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 1: a time machine and you could go a hundred years

931
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 1: into the future, how do you say or imagine drugs

932
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: being integrated and accepted into the broader culture in Western

933
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:11,320
Speaker 1: countries in Australia where a little bit behind the times,

934
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 1: and it's very frustrating. So I'm just wondering your thoughts

935
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 1: on on how you say the future painting out so

936
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 1: truly you want to take a first crack at that

937
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 1: or should I. Honestly, I really can't stim and these

938
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 1: questions come up. I'm just I don't know what my

939
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 1: problem is, but I'm not very good at like imagining

940
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:30,319
Speaker 1: or envisioning how things are going to go. Um, I'd

941
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 1: love you to start and then maybe it'll give me

942
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,280
Speaker 1: some ideas. Yeah, I mean, first of all, to think

943
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 1: a hundred years forward too, when you know, God knows

944
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:44,280
Speaker 1: what shape planet Earth will be in, what shape human

945
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 1: kind will be in. Um, I just find it impossible

946
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 1: to answer at that level. What I do think is

947
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,360
Speaker 1: that we are obviously going to continue to see a

948
00:52:55,480 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 1: growing proliferation of psychoactive substances. I mean, I remember, even

949
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 1: going back thirty years ago Julie, people would say, oh,

950
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:05,320
Speaker 1: we're going to see the replacement of cocaine by synthetics,

951
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 1: replacement of this by synthetics, blah blah blah blah blah.

952
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 1: And I think people always expected that to happen sooner

953
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 1: than later. But I do think over time we're head

954
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:17,320
Speaker 1: of that direction. So one question it raises is whether

955
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 1: the classic plant psychoactive substances, right, cannabis, coca you know,

956
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 1: which becomes cocaine, opium which becomes opiates, tobacco which becomes nicotine,

957
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:30,839
Speaker 1: and some of the psychelics. Whether in fact those things

958
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 1: will continue to play, I have to imagine they're going

959
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 1: to play an ever diminishing role in the broader consumption

960
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 1: of psychoactive substances as synthetics get developed that offer us

961
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 1: more and more of the potential upside to these substances

962
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 1: and less and less of the downsides. That's one I

963
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:51,399
Speaker 1: think fairly safe prediction. On the other hand, the fact

964
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: that these substances have been around, these plant products from millennia,

965
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:57,359
Speaker 1: sometimes ten thousand years, um, makes me think that they

966
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 1: really do have some powerful staying power. Secondly, UM, you know,

967
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:04,959
Speaker 1: the notion of how these substances are going to become

968
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 1: more and more integrated. You know, it's like when you

969
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 1: imagine just jumping forward a few decades, even imagining Prozac

970
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 1: generation seven and m d m A generation four, or

971
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 1: when you look at what some of the psycholics research

972
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 1: companies are more and more trying to do of developing

973
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 1: different psychedelics that give you the upsides without some of

974
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 1: the downsides of nausea or physical discomfort or what have you. Um,

975
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 1: whether or not we basically see alcohol get essentially displaced.

976
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 1: I mean, alco obviously has so much to do with

977
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 1: taste and flavor and culture that I'd be surprised if

978
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 1: alcohol really disappears in any substantial way from our society. UM.

979
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 1: It's also hard to know whether we'll continue with drug

980
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:52,839
Speaker 1: prohibitions or whether some innovations will simply happen that make,

981
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:56,320
Speaker 1: you know, the absurdity of prohibitions just so readily apparent

982
00:54:56,400 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 1: that governments give up. I also wonder about other types

983
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:04,720
Speaker 1: of things, you know, virtual reality experiences and things like that,

984
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:08,839
Speaker 1: that may in fact offer you know, safer forms of

985
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 1: altered states of consciousness than we get from the plant

986
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 1: substances and the synthetic drugs. The one thing I feel

987
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:19,200
Speaker 1: highly confident of is that people are going to continue

988
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 1: experimenting with and using it, consuming for a broad, almost

989
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:27,359
Speaker 1: infinite variety of reasons, all sorts of psychoactive substances, and

990
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,799
Speaker 1: that the notion of ever there ever being any kind

991
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 1: of drug free culture, drug free society is utterly absurd.

992
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 1: I think, even if you imagine, you know, the way

993
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:38,759
Speaker 1: that China is going now with ever greater uses of

994
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:43,760
Speaker 1: artificial intelligence and surveillance, and all of this, the innate

995
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 1: need of a desire of human beings to alter their

996
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 1: states of consciousness one way or another, and the ways

997
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:53,880
Speaker 1: in which psychoactive substances kind of facilitate that process better

998
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 1: than and more effectively, sometimes for good, sometimes for bad,

999
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 1: than any other forms of ways instigating an ultrasto consciousness.

1000
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:05,440
Speaker 1: I think that even in the most totalitarian and hyper

1001
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:09,319
Speaker 1: control societies will continue to see people using these substances.

1002
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 1: So what do you think? Yeah, No, I as usual,

1003
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:14,319
Speaker 1: I agree with what you're saying. You know, one thing

1004
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 1: I have seen just in advising some of these psychedelic

1005
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,239
Speaker 1: companies is that there are a number of companies who

1006
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 1: are looking to sort of tweak the molecules we already

1007
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:26,240
Speaker 1: know about, to make them last longer or be shorter,

1008
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 1: or have some effects and not other effects. So I

1009
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 1: think we're going to continue to see this sort of

1010
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:35,440
Speaker 1: you know, alphabet soup of like new chemical entities twists

1011
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 1: on old molecules. I also think it's worth hoping that

1012
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:41,400
Speaker 1: there is still going to be payote around, that there

1013
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 1: will still be boufoil various around that you know, the

1014
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 1: natural sources that you mentioned, I hope that they don't

1015
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 1: get depleted. People have figured out how to sort of

1016
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:55,880
Speaker 1: preferentially use synthetic mescaline so that they aren't over harvesting

1017
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 1: payote and find other ways to make five M E

1018
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 1: O D M T that don't involve, you know, molesting

1019
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:04,920
Speaker 1: these toads. You know, there was a time member when

1020
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:07,479
Speaker 1: I was talking to Michael Paullen when he was doing

1021
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 1: his New Yorker piece. This is the article that became

1022
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 1: his treatment. Yeah. Well, I mean when he was writing

1023
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 1: that New Yorker article, Jeremy and I are like, you're

1024
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:18,440
Speaker 1: going to write a book, aren't you, Like there's clearly

1025
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 1: enough here for a book. But I remember talking to

1026
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 1: him about this idea of like mental health clubs that

1027
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 1: you know, the same way you can go to a

1028
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 1: gym and there's a lot of different equipment that you

1029
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 1: can get on to work your legs or your arms.

1030
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 1: Like maybe at some point you'll be able to go

1031
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 1: to like a mental health club where you will have

1032
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 1: you know, rooms for meditation or for yoga, but there

1033
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 1: will be a two C B room or an M

1034
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 1: D M A room and you will be able to

1035
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 1: have some sort of psychedelic assistant therapy offered to you. Obviously,

1036
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 1: integration is important, and you know, screening in preparation. But

1037
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 1: I am assuming that these sort of processes of having

1038
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:57,919
Speaker 1: psychedelic assisted therapy available. I am assuming that they will

1039
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 1: become more commonplay ace, and people will be sort of

1040
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 1: more educated about them, and we'll be able to avail themselves.

1041
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 1: But I see that in like ten or twenty years.

1042
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:10,520
Speaker 1: I mean, God knows what's going to happen in a

1043
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 1: hundred years. You know, it's hard enough to sort of predict.

1044
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:16,000
Speaker 1: I mean, we know that f d A is going

1045
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 1: to be presented with some very convincing data on m

1046
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 1: DUMA assistant therapy for ptsd ine, and it's very possible

1047
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 1: that m DMA will be FDA approved in and then

1048
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 1: I think with psilocybin, the data will probably be gathered

1049
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 1: a year or two after that. So even just in

1050
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 1: the in the short term, we're going to have big

1051
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 1: changes where people are going to have access to these

1052
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:44,640
Speaker 1: medicines and it's going to create its own sort of

1053
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 1: cascade of effects. When I talk about the explosive growth

1054
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 1: right now what's happening in the psychedelic space, I always

1055
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:55,760
Speaker 1: talk about pruning. You know, if you're a gardener and

1056
00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 1: you've got explosive growth, you need to cut back. You

1057
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 1: need to prune it. It's too big and too bushy,

1058
00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 1: and you have to make some hard decisions about what

1059
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 1: stays and what goes. But in the long run, that

1060
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:10,480
Speaker 1: pruning makes for a healthier plant that will produce more fruit.

1061
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:12,960
Speaker 1: So I feel like we are going to be in this,

1062
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 1: in this expansive growth and pruning phase for at least

1063
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: the next ten, maybe even twenty years. So I don't

1064
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:24,120
Speaker 1: know what happens if we do all that where we're

1065
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 1: at in a hundred years. I just know you and

1066
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:29,959
Speaker 1: I are not going to be here to see it. Yeah,

1067
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 1: how much do you fear a crackdown of the sort

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00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:36,080
Speaker 1: that you know, there was obviously that psychelic renaissance that

1069
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 1: have been initially in the fifties and early sixties and

1070
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:42,400
Speaker 1: then was really obliterated by the late sixties early seventies.

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00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:45,280
Speaker 1: What's your fear about that happening? You know? I sort

1072
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 1: of joke about like too big to fail, or that

1073
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:50,400
Speaker 1: there's an awful lot of momentum right now. So I

1074
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:52,920
Speaker 1: do sort of feel like the two spaces out of

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00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:54,440
Speaker 1: the tube and you're not going to be able to

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00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 1: put it back. And there are so many people now

1077
00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 1: who who know that these can be used as medicines

1078
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 1: and that these can help a lot of people, and

1079
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 1: that we have got a true epidemic of anxiety and

1080
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 1: depression and suicidality and substance abuse and alcoholism sort of

1081
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:18,080
Speaker 1: stemming from isolation and loneliness and loss of meaning. And

1082
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:20,800
Speaker 1: you know, people are pretty miserable, and COVID did not help.

1083
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:23,680
Speaker 1: So we really are having a mental health crisis and

1084
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 1: we're going to need outside the box solutions for these problems. Um,

1085
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 1: it's just hard to see how everything is going to

1086
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 1: shake out well on that uncertain No, Julie, I want

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01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:38,760
Speaker 1: to thank you for co hosting Psychoactive with me this

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01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:42,200
Speaker 1: second time. I want to encourage our listeners in the

1089
01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 1: hope that Julie will agree to do this again, that

1090
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 1: if you have questions on your mind, I'll do it

1091
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 1: right now. In fact, just call a three three psycho

1092
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 1: zero or eight three three seven seven nine two four

1093
01:00:56,680 --> 01:01:00,320
Speaker 1: six zero three three seven seven nine two six zero,

1094
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:03,320
Speaker 1: leave a question you'd like Julian or I to answer,

1095
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 1: and hopefully we'll get to it the next time we

1096
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:07,600
Speaker 1: do this. But Julius, and thank you ever so much

1097
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:09,960
Speaker 1: for doing this with me. It's an incredible pleasure to

1098
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 1: catch up with you, whether we're doing it with a

1099
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 1: recording like this or just in person. So thank you,

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01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 1: Thank you anytime, Ethan. It's on my absolute pleasure. If

1101
01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 1: you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends about it, or

1102
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:30,920
Speaker 1: you can write us a review at Apple Podcasts or

1103
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:33,800
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. We love to hear from

1104
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 1: our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories,

1105
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:39,919
Speaker 1: comments and ideas, then leave us a message at one

1106
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 1: eight three three seven seven nine sixty that's eight three

1107
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:50,240
Speaker 1: three psycho zero, or you can email us at Psychoactive

1108
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 1: at protozoa dot com or find me on Twitter at

1109
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 1: Ethan natal Man. You can also find contact information in

1110
01:01:56,880 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 1: our show notes. Psychoactive is a production of Heart Radio

1111
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 1: and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Naedelman. It's

1112
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:09,200
Speaker 1: produced by Noam Osband and Josh Stain. The executive producers

1113
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:13,400
Speaker 1: are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronofsky

1114
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:16,680
Speaker 1: from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from My

1115
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, and me Ethan Nadelman. Our music is by

1116
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:24,440
Speaker 1: Ari Blucien and a special thanks to a. Brios F.

1117
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 1: Bianca Grimshaw and Robert BP. Next week I'll be talking

1118
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 1: with Rick Doblin, who founded the Multidisciplinary Association of Psychedelic

1119
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:48,200
Speaker 1: Studies otherwise known as MAPS back in and is now

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01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:51,200
Speaker 1: leading the way for the legalization of m d m

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01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:56,080
Speaker 1: A as a therapeutic substance. So the journal Science polishes

1122
01:02:56,120 --> 01:02:58,440
Speaker 1: a list of what they consider it to be the

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01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:05,120
Speaker 1: world's top ten scientific breakthroughs of the year, and fore

1124
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:09,080
Speaker 1: they considered our phase three paper published in Nature Medicine

1125
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:13,480
Speaker 1: as one of the world's top ten scientific breakthroughs of

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01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 1: the year. And it was just so satisfac to really

1127
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:19,720
Speaker 1: speak about m d m A and the therapeutic use

1128
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:21,200
Speaker 1: of m d m A as one of the world's

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01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:24,840
Speaker 1: top ten scientific breakthroughs of the year. Subscribe to Cycleactive

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01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:25,960
Speaker 1: now see it, don't miss it.