1 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly 2 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small 3 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions 4 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford, 5 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or 6 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website 7 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope 8 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it 9 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship 10 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so 11 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: much for joining me for session to seventy seven of 12 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: the Rapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get into our 13 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: conversation right after our word from our sponsors. Whether you're 14 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: looking to make new friends, maintaining an existing friendship, or 15 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: wanting to remove yourself from a friend group altogether. The 16 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: process of cultivating healthy friendships is a lesson often overlooked 17 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: in our textbooks and general life skills. But why is 18 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,839 Speaker 1: that when having and being a friend is a core 19 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: aspect of so many of our adult lives. This week, Psychologists, 20 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: friendship expert and New York Times bestselling author Dr Marissa 21 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: Franco joins us again to discuss her new book Platonic, 22 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: How the science of attachment can help you make and 23 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: keep friends. Our conversation explores how avoiding conflict is not 24 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: helping your friendships, how your attachment style is showing up 25 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: in your platonic relationships, the difference between dependency and friendship, 26 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: and how to break up with a friend amicably. If 27 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share 28 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: with us on social media using the hashtag TBG in 29 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: session or join us over in the Sister Circle to 30 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: talk more in depth about the episode. You can join 31 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 1: us at community that Therapy for Black Girls dot com. 32 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. I know you have been super busy, 33 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: so I'm thankful for you making some time to chat 34 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: with us today. Always happy to so you have been 35 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: here with us before. Dr Franco. It's very special to 36 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: have you back for a third time because now you 37 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 1: are in book long to mode. So I'm very honored 38 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: that you kind of gave the world a sneak speak 39 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: of Platonic to come years ago, and now it is 40 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: finished and ready for people to purchase. So tell me 41 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: how have you been doing and what's new with you 42 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: really since we last talked. Oh my gosh, great question. 43 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: I feel like this book was like its own I 44 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: guess healing journey for me, you know, like in each 45 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: of the chap there's I'm like, hey, y'all, this is 46 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: what the research says, this is how I've been screwing up, 47 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: so we should all do something differently. So it's certainly 48 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: like changed a lot of the ways that I should 49 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: up in my friendships. So you mentioned that you feel 50 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: like you have been doing a lot of things wrong 51 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: and have figured that out through writing the book. So 52 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: tell me what do you feel like you had gotten 53 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: wrong before writing the book and how can we learn 54 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: from maybe some of the mistakes you feel like you 55 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: were making. That is a great question. So, oh gosh, 56 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: I'm embarrassed at myself, but I shouldn't be, because we're 57 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: all on this journey anyway. I think one of the 58 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: big things I was doing wrong is like I would 59 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: never bring up problems that I had with friends, and 60 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: I thought that was kind because I was trying to 61 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: get over them on my own, and I thought we 62 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: would cause more attention if we brought it up. Then 63 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: I read the study that said open empathic conflict actually 64 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: contributes to more intimacy in your friendships, and I was like, Okay, 65 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: so I'm actually sabotaging my friendship by ignoring all our 66 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: problems all the time. So I just started like bringing 67 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: problems up in a very empathic way. And there's the 68 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 1: psychoanalysts Virginia Goldner, and she talks about how you can 69 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: have flaccid safety, which you get from pretending nothing's wrong 70 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: even when it is, or dynamic safety, which comes from 71 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: rupture and repair that sets the president for like, hey, 72 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: if there's anything wrong in our friendship, like we don't 73 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 1: have to just like live with it or like slowly 74 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 1: back away from each other because we have no other options, 75 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: Like we can actually heal. And so that has made 76 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: my friendships a lot more deep and I think more 77 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: sustainable too. So I think this is an interesting concept 78 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: because I think a lot of times what happens, especially 79 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: when like we are first going to therapy, right, like 80 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 1: we're learning all this new stuff about ourselves and we 81 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 1: want to try it out, and what we don't realize 82 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 1: is that like other people are impacted by our new 83 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: behaviors even if they're healthy. So I'm curious to hear 84 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: how your friends took to you kind of bringing up 85 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: problems now and there had been no history of that. Yeah, 86 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: so here's the thing. Some of them read the chapter 87 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 1: from my book on working through Conflict, which was really helpful. 88 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: But the other thing that I learned about working through 89 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 1: conflict and healthy ways is that if you're really good 90 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: at conflict, do you make people that are bad at 91 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: conflict look like they're good at conflict because you basically deescalate, 92 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: You kind of like scan where the other person's at 93 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: and try to, like I guess, bring them down if needed. 94 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 1: Like you're just kind of very aware of yourself and 95 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: the other person. With my best friend, when I tried 96 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 1: to bring up a problem at first, she was like, 97 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: it feels like everything I do is wrong, and instead 98 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: of escalating, I was like, actually, there's so many things 99 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: that you do right, and like I'm sorry I haven't 100 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: expressed that to you, but like that's true too, and 101 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: like there's this one little thing that I want to change, 102 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: but like I still love you so much, and I 103 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: still love all these other things about you, and so 104 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 1: it's really hard dr Joy But I think knowing you 105 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: can't control people, but you can influence them made it 106 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 1: easier for me to try to work through this conflict 107 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: with my friends. And now they do it with their friends. 108 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: It's really created ripple effects, which is seem really cool. Nice, 109 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: Nice that you mentioned bringing up conflict empathectly. What does 110 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: that even look like? So that looks like first you 111 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: prime the conflict by saying like, I wanted to bring 112 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: this up because you're so important to me, so I 113 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: never wanted anything to get between us. You use I 114 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: statements like hey, I've been feeling hurt because of this. 115 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: You don't use you statements like you're a bad friend 116 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: and you disappoint me. You ask for their perspective, like hey, 117 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: what was this like for you, with the awareness that 118 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: sometimes whatever their experiences can fundamentally alter your experience. So 119 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: if my friend didn't show up for me and she's 120 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: like laying in bed with depression, obviously I'm not going 121 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: to be as mad with her about her for bailing 122 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: last minute, you know, And you try to come to 123 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 1: a consensus or engage in mutuality like it's about common understanding, 124 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: it's not about winning or losing, And so you're invested 125 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 1: in getting your needs mad and you're invested in getting 126 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: their needs mad, and so when you do it way, 127 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: it really is an act of love and reconciliation. So 128 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: it sounds like it may have been a little awkward 129 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: for you at least with your best friend, but eventually 130 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: with you know, the empathy and like couching it in, 131 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: like there are lots of things that you do right, 132 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: then it became a place for you all to be 133 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: able to have these kinds of conversations. And then a 134 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: ripple evict exactly because I think we all needed to 135 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: see that conflict could be something that's not combat, that 136 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: it can be an act of love. And I think 137 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: for me reading all this research and doing it for 138 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: the book, I realized that potential. And then if I 139 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: can bring that to my friend, they realize that potential, right, 140 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: and then when I bring up conflict again, they're not 141 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: in fight or flight mode because we've all had this 142 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: healing experience of it actually being an active love that 143 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: brings us closer. Nice. So you know, one of my 144 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: questions for you, Dr Franco is if you can talk 145 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: us through like what makes a healthy relationship or healthy 146 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: friendship versus an unhealthy and I think a lot of 147 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: people might have initially thought like conflict being present as 148 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: an unhealthy thing, but clearly you're saying that that is 149 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: not so. In addition to an ability to like manage conflict, 150 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: which I think is the sign of health, what are 151 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: some other signs of health from a friendship that we 152 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: should be on the lookout for. So what happens when 153 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: you are intimate with someone is you begin to include 154 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: them in your sense of yourself, which means when they succeed, 155 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: it feels like you succeed. And so what does that mean. 156 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: There's a lot of healthy behaviors that extend from that process. 157 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: I'm rooting for my friends success, right if they have 158 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,599 Speaker 1: an accomplishment, I'm like, yes, I'm not like, well, I 159 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: don't know if they should have given that to you, 160 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: not being malicious simply and engaging in something called mutuality, 161 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: which is what I kind of touched on when I 162 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: talked about conflict, which is I'm thinking about your reality 163 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: and my reality at the same time and figuring out 164 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: how to meet both of our needs. So I talked 165 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: about that too in my chapter on generosity, that good 166 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: generosity isn't I'm doing whatever you want because that makes 167 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: me resentful. And actually people can sense it, according to 168 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,719 Speaker 1: the research, when you're doing something out of obligation that 169 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: you don't really want to do, and it actually like, 170 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: although generosity makes us happy, like that obligatory generosity actually 171 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: drains us, and our friends actually prefer it if we 172 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: don't give it to the Mirotically setting boundaries, I think 173 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: each person being able to set boundaries and engage in 174 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: that process of mutuality. That's like, I'm thinking about you 175 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking about me, and I'm trying to figure 176 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: out something that works for both of us. So what 177 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 1: does it look like when that breaks down? Right? I 178 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: interviewed a friendship pair and one of them was supposed 179 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 1: to go to the other's recital and she couldn't because 180 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: she got really sick that her friend couldn't go. And 181 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: that friend was bummed because her friend missed her recital, 182 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: which is understandable. But if you're engaged in mutuality, you're 183 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: able to tell yourself, Okay, even though my friend did 184 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: something that kind of bums me out. If I look 185 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: at the bigger picture here, I see that that what's 186 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: going on in her life and why that that happened, 187 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: but instead this friend said, you're an awful friend. You 188 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: didn't show up to my recital. And so that that 189 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,839 Speaker 1: breakdown of perspective, taking, that sort of self absorption, that 190 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: is what we see in unhealthy relationships. While the I'm 191 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: considering you and I'm considering me, and our relationship is 192 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: each mutually invested in both of us, that's what you 193 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: see in very healthy friendships. Mmmm. So you know that 194 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: example you gave was really striking because now I feel 195 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: like I have all these questions that you might not 196 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: be able to answer because you're not the friendship pair. 197 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 1: But that feels like a bit of an extreme reaction, 198 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: especially if this is somebody you've had some history with, 199 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: you know, like if if I'm sick and I can't 200 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: make something when you know I usually make your events, 201 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 1: it feels like there should be a little bit more 202 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: grace than like, oh, you're a horrible friend. And so 203 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, like, how do you come back from something 204 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 1: like that? Is it possible to even come back from 205 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 1: something like that? And what might lead to the friend 206 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: who's feeling like really self absorbed, what might be to 207 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: them being able to view their friend is like a 208 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: horrible friend as opposed to this was a you know, 209 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 1: something that happened in isolation. I talk about in the 210 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: book that I really think a contributor is insecure attachment style, 211 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: and securely attached people are thinking a lot more about 212 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: how the world affects them than how they affect the world, 213 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: and they don't often have the broader picture of like 214 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,479 Speaker 1: what's my reality and what's your reality? I mean, avoidantly 215 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: attached people who fear intimacy and closeness, they tend to 216 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: think a lot more about their needs and so they'll 217 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: push people away, they'll go stop people because they're uncomfortable, 218 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: but they're not thinking about the impact on the other person, 219 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: Whereas anxious people, they tend to engage in something called 220 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: vulnerable narcissism, which is different kind of narcissism where you're 221 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: making all of these demands on the other person and 222 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: it's coming from a place of like hurt, and you 223 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: only see how people are harming you, and you don't 224 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: see how you are harming other people. Right, So I 225 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: would say that might be an instance of vulnerable narcissism 226 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: where you hurt me and that hurts so badly that 227 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: I don't even have the capacity to consider you like 228 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: our triggers make us. I want to like dance lightly 229 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: on this because I don't mean to attack anyone who's triggered. 230 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: We all get triggered. But what I noticed is that 231 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: when we're triggered, we're pretty self absorbed. It's very hard 232 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: to be loving. I think love is giving people the 233 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: benefit of the doubt, and triggers push us to do 234 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: the opposite, where we only consider ourselves and we assume 235 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 1: that the other person has such negative intent and so 236 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: that triggering that that this is a wound that's coming 237 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: up from my past that I'm super imposing onto my 238 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: reality now, which is like fundamentally what attachment theory is, 239 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: can lead us to be in so much pain, I 240 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: would say, like literally in so much pain that we 241 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: don't have the psychological resources to consider someone else's reality. 242 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. So you've already kind of delved into it, 243 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: but I want you to take a step back because 244 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 1: I love that you in the book approached the idea 245 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: of friendship based in attachment, because I don't think we 246 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:50,359 Speaker 1: always see attachment, And there's tons of research about attachment, 247 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: but not a lot related to friendship and how that 248 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: is impacted by our attachment styles. So can you go 249 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: back and just give us an example or give us 250 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: a definition of attached my theory, and then maybe what 251 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: does this look like in friendships? Yeah, So, when I 252 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: was reading a couple of studies on attachment theory and friendship, 253 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: a lot of them done with kids. They would show 254 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: these kids this story of your in the lunch room 255 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: and your friends kind of coming up behind you and 256 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 1: they spill milk on you. And how do you interpret 257 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: the situation. Do you think, my friend, they're out to 258 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: get me, they're out to hurt me, why do they 259 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: spilled smilk on me? Or do you think, oh man, 260 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: my friends accidentally have spilled their milk on me. Like, no, biggie, Like, 261 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 1: I'll clean that off. And fundamentally, that difference in interpretation 262 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: is what defines our attachment style, which is our template 263 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,719 Speaker 1: for how we perceive our relationships. And most of our 264 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: relationships are ambiguous. People aren't saying I spilled the milk 265 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: on you because I hate you, or they're not saying 266 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: this is a total accident. Even if they are, you know, 267 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,839 Speaker 1: our attachment tells us what they really mean and that's 268 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: what we pay attention to more than what they say, 269 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: because that's what feels very real to us, based on 270 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: our own past experiences, based on our own template. Right. 271 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 1: And so the secure people, they read that story and 272 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: they were like, you know, that was probably an accident 273 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: on my friend's part, so I forgive them, and you know, 274 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: I don't want to exact any revenge on them, whereas 275 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: the insecurely attached kids were like, you know, I want 276 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: to get them back for their behavior, and they're out 277 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: to get me and they're out to harm me. So 278 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: it's just a it's a fundamentally different philosophy on the 279 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: world and how people are relating to you that we 280 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: develop based on our early relationships with our caretakers and 281 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: continues to evolve over time. So you have anxiously attached 282 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: people and their template says people are going to abandon 283 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: me and I have to cling to them, and they 284 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: tend to misfire all the time and think they're being 285 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: rejected when they don't. If you're anxious and you know 286 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: you haven't heard back at text back from your friend, 287 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: you're jumping to maybe they don't really like me, then 288 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: you are so afraid of abandonment that this was my 289 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: own anxious attachment. You can't bring up conflict because you 290 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: think that's just gonna make people leave you. You tend 291 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: to have more volatile relationships. You think more about how 292 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: people are harming you than how you might potentially be 293 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: harming them. M You make demands on people to ask 294 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: them to kind of prove their love to you that 295 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: aren't necessarily fair because you're not necessarily considering other people 296 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: when you're hurt. And then you have avoidantly attached people, 297 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: and they're template is people can't be trusted and they're 298 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: out to harm you, and would avoidantly attached people in 299 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: their friendships, they tend to ghosts, They have fewer friends, 300 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: their friends don't feel like they really know them because 301 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: they're not actually vulnerable. They just keep people at a distance. Right, 302 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: And these are all just forms of self protection. It's 303 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: to defend ourselves against the world that we assume is harmful. 304 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: But the thing is, when your self protection looks like 305 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: shutting people out or attacking people, and the most powerful 306 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: thing that actually protects us as human connection, then your 307 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: self protection is actually harming you in the long run. 308 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: But it's hard to realize that in the short run, 309 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: whereas then you have securely attached people and just like 310 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: I shared in that story, they're template is people love 311 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: and accept them. There's this concept called paranoia, which is like, 312 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: you think the universe is like scheming for your success 313 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: and your good will, and because of that, they feel 314 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: very safe to take bold behaviors that create intimacy. Right, 315 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: A lot of the behaviors that create intimacy are risky, 316 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: so we have to feel safe to engage in them, 317 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: so they can be vulnerable and work through issues without attacking. 318 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: Because they assume the other person has their best interest 319 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: at heart and wants to hear from them and heal 320 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: their relationship. One of the biggest tips that I share 321 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: for becoming secure in the book is like they assume 322 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: people like them, which is a self fulfilling prophecy. When 323 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: researchers told people that they would go and interact with 324 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: people who would like them, they became open and more 325 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: agreeable and more positive, and they were actually liked even 326 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: though it was a lie. Whereas people that are high 327 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: and rejection sensitivity, like people with anxious attachment, they actually 328 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: tend to reject people because they think people are rejecting them, 329 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: they become cold, they become withdrawn, and then other people 330 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: feel really rejected and reject them back, and they don't 331 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: realize that they're actually manufacturing some of the outcomes that 332 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: they really fear. So you have touched on this, but 333 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,479 Speaker 1: I do think it's important because I think for a 334 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 1: long time people have felt like you could not switch 335 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: between attachment styles, right, so that it was like a 336 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 1: fixed characteristic. But what you're talking about, and I think 337 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: what more research modernly now has found is that it 338 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 1: is possible to change in some ways your attachment style. 339 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: So what does that look like? And I also want 340 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 1: to know how might people be aware of what their 341 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: actual attachment style is like, because my feeling is that 342 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: other people can feel like what's going on as opposed 343 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 1: of course, right, we often don't know what's going on 344 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:39,640 Speaker 1: for ourselves. We don't know unless somebody tells us about it. 345 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: What kind of insight do you have around like how 346 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:43,239 Speaker 1: we might be able to even figure out our own 347 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: attachment style? Absolutely? Yeah, So let's look at some characteristics 348 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: of anxious attachment. You tend to overshare, you have friends 349 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: that move really quickly and really intensely, because that is 350 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: proof to you that the other person loves you, but 351 00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: then they kind of blow up because they don't have 352 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: a foundation. When you have problems, you don't bring it up. 353 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 1: You fear that your friends don't actually like you. Sometimes 354 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: you don't reach out to friends because you think they 355 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: don't actually want to hear from you. Sometimes you are 356 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: giving towards friends just so that you can get something 357 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: back from them that's like their love. You tend to 358 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 1: be attracted to relationships with people that aren't loving towards you, 359 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: so because it matches your template, which is that you 360 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: have to earn love towards people. Sometimes you're suspicious of 361 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 1: people that give love freely to you because that's not 362 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: part of your template. And so you can cling to 363 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: relationships with people that mistreat you because you've invalidate your 364 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: own feelings because you think it's all about the other 365 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: person what you can give to the other person. So 366 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 1: you can be out of touch with your own emotions 367 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: and think you're too much and you need too much, 368 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: and you're kind of avoided towards yourself. Sadly, even though 369 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: you're anxious around other people like your own emotions, you're 370 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: just like this is too much, and you know, why 371 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: do I feel all these things? And what our feeling 372 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: is not valid, and that just intensifies the emotions. A 373 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: lot of the times you realize in your history you've 374 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,120 Speaker 1: thought someone was rejecting you, and maybe they actually weren't. 375 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: Avoidingly attached people people don't actually know they're really you. 376 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,360 Speaker 1: You're very uncomfortable being vulnerable. You tend to keep your 377 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 1: friendships separate. When there's a problem in friendships, you tend 378 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,479 Speaker 1: to just pull away and disconnect. You don't even know 379 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,479 Speaker 1: why people value friends so much, because you have trouble 380 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: actually experiencing friendship for its joys and intimacy, because you're 381 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:33,719 Speaker 1: so afraid that people will harm you or will do 382 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: something mistrustworthy. When people do something nice for you, you're 383 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 1: actually like, well, you might have some ulterior motive that's 384 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: going on. You like to keep people at a distance, 385 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: and yeah, and you end friendships pretty quickly. When friends 386 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: are out of sight, they're out of mind. You struggle 387 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: with long distance friendships for that reason. When you're vulnerable, 388 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: it is very uncomfortable for you. You You tend to suppress 389 00:19:57,800 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: your feelings and be very out of touch with what 390 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: you're actually feeling, and you tend to see yourself as 391 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 1: very self sufficient and independent as a coping mechanism for 392 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: realizing that other people wouldn't show up for you early 393 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: in life. And then we have securely attached people. You 394 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 1: tend to assume people like you. You're flexible to other 395 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: people's needs. Right if someone needs a certain thing in 396 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: your friendships, you can give it to them. You can 397 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 1: bring up issues without attacking people. You sort of easily 398 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 1: make new friends. You make other people feel like they 399 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: belong in contrast to the other attachment styles, you think 400 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 1: more about how other people are doing and how you're 401 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: affecting other people. When people do something nice for you, 402 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: you're able to just take it in and appreciate it. 403 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 1: You make people feel pretty safe, pretty accepted, and pretty 404 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: loved around you, and you can maybe tolerate difficult people 405 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 1: more than other people might be able to. You're very 406 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 1: good at regulating your emotions, so rarely do you not 407 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: rarely but less than insecure. You don't get into this 408 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 1: sort of aggressive or withdrawn mode because you're able to 409 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: deal with your emotions more so you don't have to 410 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: get to that place. And then you asked me, how 411 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: do we change our attachment styles, right, And the book 412 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: is really about all these behaviors that we can engage 413 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: in to change our attachment style. And I said, you know, 414 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: one of my my biggest tips is to assume people 415 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: like you. But more generally, it is to take in 416 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 1: and savor experiences of safety that are antithetical to your template. 417 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 1: And that actually helps. Rick Hanson, he's a psychologist. He 418 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: has a lot of research that is about how you 419 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: can rewire your brain. And when you have had trauma, 420 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: the trauma of insecure attachment, your brain is wired to 421 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: tune into threats and negative situations and times people are 422 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: rejecting you. So it has to be an active and 423 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: intentional process for you to actually look at the times 424 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: when someone did respond to your text, or someone waved 425 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 1: at you, or someone smiled at you, or someone did 426 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 1: something nice for you, and you can just accept that 427 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: as face value you, as someone showing love to you. Like, 428 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: take a moment and feel that in your body, Note that, 429 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 1: register it, picture that experience sinking into your body. And 430 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: you do this as a practice over time, and so 431 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: what you practice over time ends up becoming fundamentally part 432 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: of your personality. Yeah, you know, as you're talking. I'm 433 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: thinking this would probably be most difficult for people who 434 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: like reject other people before they even have a chance 435 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 1: to reject them, because like, where do you even start 436 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: the loop? Right? What are you even creating opportunities for, 437 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: you know, someone to show you love or show you 438 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 1: things that are different if you are already so fearful 439 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 1: of being rejected in the beginning, exactly, And that's why, 440 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: you know, I think what's really helpful about knowing attachment 441 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 1: theory is if you don't know your attachment style, you 442 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: think the world is just harming you. You think you 443 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 1: have no power over it, right, You're just like people 444 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: are needed, people can't be trusted, and I'm just trying 445 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: to survive out here, and you don't realize how maybe 446 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,959 Speaker 1: some of your behaviors are influencing how other people may 447 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: be treating you. And so I think that's why it's 448 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 1: just so helpful to like the awareness of like how 449 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: are we showing up and how is that influencing other people? 450 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: You know, because then you're empowered, you can change course, 451 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: you have agency. So that's why I think, no matter 452 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 1: what your attachment salads, it's like really cool to know 453 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 1: it because you're like, oh, there's actually help here. M 454 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: m m m m mmmm. So something else you've spent 455 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: a lot of time talking about in the book is 456 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: the difference between dependency and friendship. So can you tell 457 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: us about the difference between those and how we might 458 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: have more reciprocal kinds of relationships with one another. Absolutely, 459 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:40,959 Speaker 1: dependency is kind of like I outsource my nervous system 460 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,360 Speaker 1: to you. I outsource myself soothing to you. Right, these 461 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: people that are dependent, they will call you all the 462 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: time when they're in a crisis. They demand that you 463 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: listen to them. And it's the friendships. I think a 464 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 1: lot of people say, like, this is draining. The friendship 465 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: is confined to a sing goal chapter or song without 466 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 1: a larger playlist, which is like vulnerability, vulnerability, voterability, needs, needs, needs. 467 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: But the beauty of a friendship is that has many chapters. 468 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:14,880 Speaker 1: There's vulnerability, there's affection, there's fun, you know, there's simple moments, 469 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 1: mediocre moments or just you know, sitting next to each 470 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 1: other and eating dessert. But for these people that are dependent, 471 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 1: they're almost treating you like you're their parents, Like I'm 472 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 1: just gonna ask things from you, and I am going 473 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: to ask you to like deal with all my emotions 474 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 1: for me, right, Like it's like we don't even take 475 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: a beat to be like what am I actually feeling? 476 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 1: But we start calling our friend and we're like, oh 477 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 1: my god, that's where I'm going through. And so that 478 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: is dependency and not friendship again, because friendship has a 479 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: larger story. It has many more different ingredients than just 480 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: emotional support. That's part of it. And these people that 481 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: engage in these dependency relationships there's often a lack of 482 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: mutuality reciprocity. They're asking so much from their friends and 483 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: their friends aren't asking the same from them per se. Again, 484 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 1: it's like a parenting relationship more than a friendship, which 485 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: is like we're both going to get our needs met 486 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 1: in this relationship. More from my conversation with Dr Franco 487 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: after the break, So how would we begin to have 488 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 1: I think this goes back to our you know, earlier 489 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: conversation around conflict. Right. So let's say somebody is checking 490 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: out our conversation right now and they realize, oh, I 491 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,360 Speaker 1: have somebody in my life like this right, Like they 492 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: only call when they need something, like there is no 493 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,199 Speaker 1: other song in this place. This how might they have 494 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: this conversation with this other person or or is it 495 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: that you just like realize it didn't cut them off, 496 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: or do you try to have a conversation. So I 497 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: would say it depends, right, because again, like we all 498 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: go through periods of dependency in our friendships. The problem 499 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 1: is again that this is the only part of the friendship. 500 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: So my first suggestion would be take a step back 501 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: from the friendship and assess, is this just a chapter 502 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: of our book where my friend really needs support or 503 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 1: has this been our book all along since the beginning. 504 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: And maybe if it's just like all my friends going 505 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: through rough time, you can give them that grace show 506 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 1: up for them when you can. But if you realize, 507 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: oh gosh, there's been like such a long history of 508 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: this and like it's always been so one sided, then 509 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 1: that's when I say you might consider whether this friendship 510 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: works for you, Right, Like I think we should heal 511 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: and work through conflict with friendships that we know this 512 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: person loves us, we know it's a good friendship, but 513 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: we've had a problem that comes up and then we 514 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: need to bring it up. But when it's like throughout 515 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 1: this friendship's history, it has stop been satisfying or good 516 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: or fair reciprocal, then you might want to end the connection. 517 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: But if it is one of those friendships where you're 518 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: like this is otherwise good. My friends going through a 519 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: lot and you're still like this is like a little 520 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: much for me and I can't take it. Harriet Learner, 521 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: she's a psychologist. She has some really good language around that, 522 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,439 Speaker 1: which is sort of like, hey, friend, I miss our 523 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: larger friendship. I miss all of the other things that 524 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: we used to bring into this connection. And I know 525 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: you're going through a difficult time, and I know you 526 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 1: need support, and I want to make sure you're getting 527 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: the support that you need. Is there a way that 528 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: we can bring in other folks to make sure that 529 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 1: you are getting that support? And for our friendship, is 530 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: there a way that we can remember all the other 531 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: things that we've loved about each other? Is there ways 532 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: that we can also like chat to just hang out, 533 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: or you can come over and we can play board games, 534 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: or we can go for a walk. I think you know, 535 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: in general, being able to approach conflict by asking for 536 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: what you need instead of what the deficit is can 537 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: help people back get into that fight or flight reactive mode. 538 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: So that's what I would suggest. I love that such 539 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: a gentle language. I think, even as you were talking 540 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: about conflict earlier, right, like, when you approach it in 541 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: that kind of way, Now, this is not rocket science, 542 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: like it's not a template for if you do this, 543 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,239 Speaker 1: it's going to go perfectly. But I think approaching it 544 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 1: with that kind of a lens, like you said, Okay, 545 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: what else do you need? What other support can be 546 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: offered as opposed to here's what you're doing wrong, invites 547 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: a very different kind of conversation. Absolutely, yeah, and they 548 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: are going through a hard time, so I hope some 549 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: gentleness can go a long way. Yeah. So I think 550 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: that that kind of goes to some other things that 551 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: you've shared around, like just vulnerability being really important in 552 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: our friendships. What do you think that we often misunderstand 553 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: or getting wrong about vulnerability and our friendships? So I 554 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 1: have gosh, this chapter in my book is very vulnerable 555 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: for me because I talked about how I thought everybody 556 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 1: wanted someone polished and perfect, and especially as a black woman. 557 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: You know, I saw my mom cry once when her 558 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,160 Speaker 1: grandma died, So I never wanted to be vulnerable. And 559 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 1: the research told me the research is my mentor. It 560 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: told me how wrong I was, because the research finds 561 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: that the more we self disclose, the more people like us. 562 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: And I thought I was burdening people, but I realized 563 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: the biggest burden I was placing on my friendships was 564 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: often my silence because they didn't actually feel close to me. 565 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: And when you are vulnerable with someone, you conveyed us 566 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: to someone that you trust them. And according to the 567 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: theory of infert attraction, we like people who we think 568 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: like us, and vulnerability is a way to say, hey, 569 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: you know, I like you, I feel close to you, 570 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: I trust you, which is why I'm willing to share 571 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: this with you. And vulnerability, it's just like it's a 572 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: very powerful piece of like how we end up feeling 573 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: close to people. And I think especially we have this 574 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: American narrative, and for black communities there's even more historical 575 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: president for this. We weren't safe to be vulnerable, but 576 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: this American narrative that we have to handle things alone 577 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: and be self sufficient and be independent, and that's what 578 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: I thought I had to do. But I started reading 579 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: research that that actually is linked to more suicidality and 580 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: depression and the number one thing that prevents against depression 581 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: is confiding in someone out of a hundred and six factors. 582 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: That's what the research found. And then I interviewed this 583 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: expert on secrets and I read one of his studies 584 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: and it found that the people that were best at 585 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: holding the weight of their secrets, they were so good 586 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: at it because they had told someone who responded lovingly, 587 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: and they internalized that sense of love towards themselves. And 588 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: what I concluded from writing that chapter was that, wow, 589 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: like we aren't strong on our own. The people that 590 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: are strong have received love from others and they've just 591 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: internalized That's what secure attachment is. They've internalized that, so 592 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: it's now part of their own hardware, their own nervous system, 593 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: their own regulation system. And the people that are just 594 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: like I don't need anyone and I can be self 595 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: sufficient and independent, they actually tend to have a lot 596 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: of chronic health problems because those emotions stay in there 597 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: if they're not being released avoidingly attached people of more 598 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: like inflammation, heart problems, headaches, all those things. And so yeah, 599 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: when I asked Dr Michael Slepian, who does the research 600 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: on the secrets, what's the one thing you would recommend 601 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: that we do with our secrets based on all your research, 602 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: he says, the one thing that I would recommend is 603 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: that you tell someone about them someone safe, of course, 604 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: So Dr Frankel, I am curious to hear what is vulnerability. 605 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: A lot of times when I hear described, it feels 606 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 1: like it is only letting people know, like when you're struggling, right, 607 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: Like I let somebody know when I need help, or 608 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 1: I let somebody know when I'm not feeling so good it? 609 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: Are there other ways that we can be vulnerable in 610 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: relationships that don't require us to be talking about like 611 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: some bad thing happening. Absolutely, I think vulnerability is just 612 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: sharing something that feels risky or exposing to you like 613 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: it it kind of exposes you to your fears of rejection. 614 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: And that could be so many different things. Honestly, for me, 615 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: sharing good news could be that way, Like I'm showing 616 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: off I'm afraid, so that can be like a vulnerable 617 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: act for me, showing love and appreciation towards someone right 618 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: saying to someone you're amazing and I care about you. 619 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: And these are all the ways that I think you're 620 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: like a walking miracle right. That just feels very vulnerable 621 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: because like, what if that person rejects me at thinks 622 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: I'm weird and I just told them I really liked them, 623 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: So that rejection is gonna like hit me a lot harder. 624 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: I think intimacy is vulnerability. Like I go through six traits, 625 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: and these are six traits that I see in the 626 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: research that cultivate friendship and that secure people do really well. Initiative, vulnerability, authenticity, affection, productive, anger, 627 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: and generosity, and are all of those traits They're all vulnerable. 628 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: Like even being generous to someone is vulnerable because I 629 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: don't know, I'm putting myself out there to show you 630 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: that I care about you, Right, Like, if you want 631 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 1: to escape vulnerability, you are also escaping intimacy, because intimacy 632 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: is inherently a risk. Can you say more about the 633 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: authenticity piece, because it feels like that's tie closely to 634 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 1: the vulnerability. Absolutely. Yeah. So I've really struggled to define 635 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: authenticity in this book because I felt like we all 636 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: have this sense that authenticity is what we say automatically 637 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: or reflexively, and like, what the first thing that comes 638 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: to mind is the authentic reaction As I read all 639 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 1: the research, I realized that actually often are authentic. Reflexive 640 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: reaction is what's called the defense mechanism, which obscures the 641 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: truth about how we actually feel. Right, Like, if I'm 642 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: being aggressive towards you, I'm probably feeling like vulnerable or 643 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: put down, and instead of sharing that vulnerable piece, I 644 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: go in those defense negatives or like actually you suck 645 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 1: and it's your fault, right. And so, really authenticity is 646 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: being able to acknowledge the feeling that comes before the 647 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: defense mechanism. It's like when you want to be reactive 648 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: about something, saying the emotion that reactivity is trying to 649 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: protect you from. So like let's say my friend I'm 650 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: struggling with infertility, my friend has a kid, my friend 651 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: got pregnant. I might think it's authentic to say kids 652 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: are a lot of work, because that's the first thing 653 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: that came to my mind. But actually, if it's a 654 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: reactive emotion that I'm sharing reflectively, it might be protecting 655 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: myself against the true of motion, which is feeling inadequate 656 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: or insufficient. Right, And so authenticity is about being aware 657 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: of our emotions so we don't go into these defense 658 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,719 Speaker 1: mechanisms that harm our friendships, and so that we can 659 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: act with intention instead of with reactivity, and we can 660 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: choose what we say that actually reflects our inner spirits 661 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: and who we are, instead of just having our primal 662 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: brain take over and try to protect us against that 663 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: deeper feeling or emotion. So what would this look like 664 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: in practice, Like if we stay with the example of 665 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: the friend who just had a kid, and you are 666 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 1: maybe struggling with infertility, and your immediate thoughts like, oh, 667 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 1: kids are a lot of work. I don't want to 668 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 1: do that anyway, what might it look like to actually 669 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,879 Speaker 1: get rid of the defense mechanism and approach this from 670 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: an authentic place. Yeah, so the defense mechanism again, anything 671 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: that protects you against your yucky feeling, so like well, 672 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: kids are a lot of work, or like, well, you're 673 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:26,839 Speaker 1: gonna have to save up a lot of money for that, 674 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: or I know that that's gonna affect your marriage a lot, 675 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: so good luck with that, or we just don't respond 676 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: all of those sort of behaviors. But the authentic reaction 677 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: would be to actually sit with the feeling so that 678 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: we don't feel compelled to engage in the defense mechanism. 679 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 1: Because the defense mechanism is protecting us from that feeling. 680 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 1: So it's, oh, I'm actually feeling really jealous, really envious, 681 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,839 Speaker 1: really bad, and I'm going to sit with that and 682 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: acknowledge that, because otherwise I'm going to ask someone else 683 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,280 Speaker 1: to take care of this feeling for me. That's basically 684 00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: what I'm doing. I'm outsourcing my emotional regulation to you. 685 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: I telling you this isn't that great, So now I 686 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: can feel a little better. But instead, I'm able to 687 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 1: tolerate my feeling so I don't have to damage the 688 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 1: relationship to get someone else to tolerate it for me. 689 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 1: And so once you know I am feeling like I'm 690 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: feeling jealous, I'm feeling insecure, I'm feeling inadequate, you have 691 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: a choice, and that's what authenticity. Authenticity is, it's being 692 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: able to act with intention instead of reactivity. So you 693 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: can maybe say to your friend, I want to be 694 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 1: really happy for you, but I've really been like struggling 695 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: with my own infertility issues, and so you know, if 696 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: I'm not able to be as happy for you as 697 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: i'd otherwise love to be, I just wanted to let 698 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: you know that. Or you can also acknowledge that you're 699 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 1: jealous and envious, but that feelings We feel many feelings 700 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: at once, and that there is a part of you 701 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 1: that is also very happy for your friend, and it 702 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: might feel authentic to lean into the part of you 703 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: that is happy for them and say, you know what, 704 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: I am rooting for you and I am happy for you, 705 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: acknowledging that that insecurity exists while the happiness exists. So 706 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 1: it's about choosing a reaction that fits you. It's who 707 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: you are and fits your relationships, right, So you're so 708 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 1: you're not just like acting out in your relationships and 709 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: causing harm. So I think that some could argue even 710 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 1: having the conversation around feeling jealous in some ways, I 711 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 1: think feels me feel like an outsourcing of like what 712 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: I feel onto you. What would you say about that? 713 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: And is there a difference? Yeah, I would say that 714 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,839 Speaker 1: I don't think all outsourcing is bad. I think when 715 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,839 Speaker 1: we can't tolerate our own emotions that sometimes we do 716 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 1: need to ask for change in our relationship to help 717 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:36,359 Speaker 1: us with that tolerating. Right, But the difference here is 718 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: that I'm able to acknowledge that and offer that as 719 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 1: an option to you instead of just putting you down 720 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,719 Speaker 1: and bashing you. So I'm being more vulnerable and I'm 721 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,760 Speaker 1: being more transparent about it instead of just acting out 722 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: in harm. And I'm doing it in a way, you know, 723 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 1: I talked about in the book the difference between anger 724 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,359 Speaker 1: of hope and anger of despair. Anger of despairs I'm 725 00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: angry so I want to destroy things and plot revenge. 726 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: Anger of hope is I'm angry so I want to heal. 727 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: I want us to heal. And so the intention is 728 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 1: very different. When you're using anger of hope, you're not 729 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 1: trying to attack the other person. You're trying to maintain 730 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,839 Speaker 1: the relationship while healing yourself. When you're acting out and 731 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 1: being an authentic you're outsourcing in a way that I'm 732 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: going to feel better at your cost. You're gonna have 733 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,360 Speaker 1: to sacrifice for me instead of this more coming together. 734 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: Like I'm sharing these vulnerable feelings and I love you 735 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 1: and I'm close to you, and like I'm struggling with 736 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: this getting in the way, But I just wanted to 737 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 1: be transparent with you. Right. That's an outsourcing, That's not like, 738 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,840 Speaker 1: I mean, You're gonna have to sacrifice yourself for me 739 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: to tolerate this emotion. It's instead of outsourcing, that's like, 740 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: help me come together to help me with this emotion 741 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,879 Speaker 1: inside me. So I want to hear you talk more 742 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 1: about productive anger because I think, you know, a lot 743 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 1: of people do a lot of friendship research, and I 744 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: feel like this is the first time I've heard productive 745 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,320 Speaker 1: anger as like one of these tenants that really leads 746 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 1: to healthy friendship. Talk to me more about that. Yeah, 747 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 1: you know, this was an interesting one for me because 748 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,239 Speaker 1: friendships end. Every seven years, we lose about half our friendships. 749 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 1: And most of that happens because it could just fizzle 750 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 1: it out. But sometimes we lose very important friendships because 751 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: in friendships we don't make the unsaid said, and little 752 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:22,439 Speaker 1: problems can continue to build in a way that would 753 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 1: never work in a romantic relationship. And intimacy is intimacy, 754 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,240 Speaker 1: And you need some cleaning out, you need some fixing, 755 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: you need some working, you need some you know, some detoxifying, right, 756 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 1: And I think that's one big thing I've learned from 757 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 1: writing this book on friendship, Like the same skills that 758 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 1: make your romantic relationship succeed make your friendship succeed. So 759 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 1: have you learned how to have a productive anger conversation 760 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: with your boo. You can use those same skills in friendship, 761 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: like secret these skills are transferable or vice versa. If 762 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: you're good with your friends, you can use those same 763 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,839 Speaker 1: skills in your romantic relationship. So yeah, I think productive 764 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,799 Speaker 1: anger right. It's about being authentic with your anger. So 765 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,320 Speaker 1: not just like being a sieve and reactive to protect 766 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,320 Speaker 1: yourself against that deeper feeling of anger. It's using anger 767 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: as a signal. This is a marker and an indicator 768 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:09,839 Speaker 1: for me that I need to change something, that there's 769 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,879 Speaker 1: something going wrong in this friendship. Right, And we don't 770 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:14,759 Speaker 1: have to do this every time something comes up in 771 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 1: the friendship, but when it continues to wave you over time. 772 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 1: And for me, it was when I started to find 773 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,240 Speaker 1: myself with drawing from friends that I otherwise loved because 774 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 1: of these issues, the accumulation of these issues, that was 775 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: my signal that, oh, I actually need to be addressing 776 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 1: this problem and be addressing this issue between us. And 777 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,800 Speaker 1: so when you approach anger productively, it's like using a 778 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:38,840 Speaker 1: lot of the skills that I said before, I feel, 779 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 1: priming them for positivity, de escalating as needed. So this 780 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 1: is this funny word that I read in the research 781 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:46,759 Speaker 1: of the anger orgasm, which I think we can all 782 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 1: understand what that looks like. You don't get the anger orgasm, 783 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 1: but there's another root meaning of anger that's about like 784 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 1: education and illumination, and so you using anger as a 785 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 1: way to educate and illuminate ourselves as to what our 786 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,439 Speaker 1: deeper needs are. That's what hopeful and productive anger does 787 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: in your relationship with your friend. More from my conversation 788 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: with Dr Franco after the break. So, I wasn't aware 789 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 1: of the statistics that you shared around us losing half 790 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:24,799 Speaker 1: of our friends every seven years, And it sounds like 791 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 1: some of it just happens because schedule changes, life happens. 792 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: But other times, like you're saying, is that we have 793 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:35,360 Speaker 1: not said the thing. And I'm wondering when a friendship ends, 794 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,920 Speaker 1: what does that look like? Like, Let's say, you know, 795 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 1: we've kind of gone through all that you're talking about 796 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,080 Speaker 1: and we realize, you know, what, I have really come 797 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,799 Speaker 1: to the end of the road with this friendship. Is 798 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 1: there a conversation that you have or like, what does 799 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 1: it actually look like to end the friendship? Yeah, so 800 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: there is a mature way to end a friendship, and 801 00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,359 Speaker 1: I say you have to address it with the long 802 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,879 Speaker 1: term friend because if you don't, you trigger what's called 803 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 1: ambiguous loss, which is we don't have clarity and closure 804 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,319 Speaker 1: as to why something ended, so our grief becomes more 805 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,400 Speaker 1: complicated and a lot more difficult. So if you're not 806 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 1: giving your friend a reason why you want to out 807 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: in this relationship, you're basically probably going to trigger ambiguous 808 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 1: loss for them. And you might be less uncomfortable by 809 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:21,360 Speaker 1: not having to have that conversation, but they're going to 810 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: be doubly uncomfortable because they're gonna be wondering what the 811 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 1: heck happened for a long time, and that uncertainty makes 812 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,239 Speaker 1: it very hard for them to process their grief. So 813 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: please be kind by actually having a conversation with your 814 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,560 Speaker 1: long term friend and just saying to them, you know, 815 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,400 Speaker 1: i've been having some thoughts about our friendship. I was 816 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,200 Speaker 1: hoping we can talk about it when you have that conversation. 817 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 1: Use eye statements. I've just been feeling like we're not 818 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 1: compatible anymore, or we don't share similar values anymore, and 819 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 1: like this isn't a fit for me anymore. But I 820 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: also encourage you to embrace what's called a commemorative friendship, 821 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,960 Speaker 1: which means you acknowledge all that was good in the friendship. 822 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,279 Speaker 1: Because of something called the recency effect, the last thing 823 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,880 Speaker 1: that happens in a relationship affects our perception of the 824 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,560 Speaker 1: relationship overall in a disproportionate way. So if our last 825 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 1: conversation is an awful one, I might think the whole 826 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 1: entire ten years of friendship was awful. So that's why 827 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,880 Speaker 1: I encourage you to create a commemorative friendship by being like, 828 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 1: even though this isn't working out now, I wanted to acknowledge, 829 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,320 Speaker 1: like this time we travel together, and like this friendship 830 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 1: was really meaningful me this time, or this is the 831 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: way it has changed me moving forward, and even though 832 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 1: it's not going to work out, like I do actually 833 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,959 Speaker 1: really really appreciate that. But then after the friendship ends, 834 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:35,359 Speaker 1: get ready for something called disenfranchised grief, which is the 835 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,880 Speaker 1: grief we feel when other people do not invalidate the 836 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,759 Speaker 1: gravity of our loss, such as when you lose a 837 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,279 Speaker 1: friend and people are like, why are you so sad? 838 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,359 Speaker 1: It's just a friend. It's not like you went through 839 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,280 Speaker 1: a divorce, right, And because we heal in community with others, 840 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 1: because part of our grief process is other people saying, oh, 841 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry you went through this, that must be 842 00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,000 Speaker 1: so hard, and that you don't get that you don't 843 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,319 Speaker 1: get the same social honoring of your loss when you 844 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,320 Speaker 1: lose a friend. It can again be a lot harder 845 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,600 Speaker 1: to grieve the endings of friendship, right Like I talked 846 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 1: to someone from my book and they were grieving for 847 00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:12,560 Speaker 1: ten years, or like I still look at her Instagram 848 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,560 Speaker 1: and cry because we just don't give ourselves permission. So 849 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 1: please also validate that it's okay for the loss of 850 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,920 Speaker 1: a friendship to affect you a lot, and friendship is 851 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,760 Speaker 1: just another connection, right, So just like losing a romantic 852 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,640 Speaker 1: partner can affect you a lot, so can losing up 853 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,239 Speaker 1: platonic friend affect you a whole lot. R Frienco You've 854 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,600 Speaker 1: made the comments several times like these are transferable skills 855 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 1: even in this grief conversation like losing a friend, and 856 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:40,239 Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of women you and I are 857 00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:42,400 Speaker 1: writing about similar themes, So I feel like some of 858 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,520 Speaker 1: this overlaps. A lot of women have shared that they 859 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:50,560 Speaker 1: feel like they grieve longer and harder around friendship breakups. 860 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,120 Speaker 1: With other women than maybe even a romantic relationship. And 861 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,919 Speaker 1: I'm just curious to hear your thoughts around why societally 862 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,480 Speaker 1: there is an invalidation of a friendship laws or why 863 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:03,600 Speaker 1: we don't think like, oh, if these are the things 864 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 1: I need in a romantic relationship, why don't we think 865 00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:11,040 Speaker 1: about needing those in platonic friendships? First of all, I 866 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,479 Speaker 1: think a sexual scholars Angela Chen, she wrote the book 867 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,480 Speaker 1: as On on a Sexuality, have really pushed me to 868 00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,560 Speaker 1: realize that romance throughout history has been a part of friendship. 869 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:24,200 Speaker 1: And what do I mean by that? Idealizing someone being 870 00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:26,640 Speaker 1: passionate about someone wanted to spend all of your time 871 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,840 Speaker 1: with them. That's not inherently sexual, So that can be 872 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,279 Speaker 1: part of a platonic partnership. And in fact, when best 873 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,960 Speaker 1: friends talk about each other, they're my soul made, you 874 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,080 Speaker 1: know what, I just wanted to spend time. I love 875 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,279 Speaker 1: her so much. Especially like women, friends just tend to 876 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 1: be closer. We can hear like a bit of romance 877 00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,439 Speaker 1: in there. You know, the lines are so blurry, right 878 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,120 Speaker 1: like I After I realized, I was like, yeah, I 879 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,719 Speaker 1: definitely feel like some romantic chemistry with some of my 880 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 1: best friends, like I idealized. I think they're the greatest 881 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 1: thing ever. And so you are losing romance. Sometimes you 882 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,560 Speaker 1: are losing You're not losing sex, because inherent the platonic 883 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,040 Speaker 1: friendships are not sexual, but that doesn't mean they're not romantic, 884 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,640 Speaker 1: and they have been throughout history. So let me go 885 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:07,840 Speaker 1: into a little briefly the history as to why we 886 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:12,160 Speaker 1: undervalue friendship in the early eighteen hundreds friends. A lot 887 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,279 Speaker 1: of his research is done on I should say, like 888 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 1: European white communities. So I think that's definitely limitation of 889 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,120 Speaker 1: the historians who have written about friendship, like Stephanie Cooch. 890 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,640 Speaker 1: She's great, but I don't think her research is necessarily inclusive. 891 00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:28,480 Speaker 1: But these European communities where people used to hold hands 892 00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,040 Speaker 1: with their friends, hug their friends. These pictures of men 893 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,239 Speaker 1: from that time being in the sports team, cuddling in 894 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:38,480 Speaker 1: each other's arms, right like love letters. Frederick Douglas wrote 895 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,440 Speaker 1: to his friend, like losing your friendship is what scares 896 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,640 Speaker 1: me about leaving the plantation. Like this is like how 897 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:47,320 Speaker 1: people held friendship back in the day. What happened Siegmund 898 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:52,880 Speaker 1: fried Richard von Kraft Ebbing to psychiatrists and before their time, 899 00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:56,279 Speaker 1: it was always stigmatized to have sex with someone of 900 00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:00,080 Speaker 1: the same sex, but it wasn't stigmatized to have a 901 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:04,000 Speaker 1: constellation of behaviors that might suggest someone's sexuality. So holding 902 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,279 Speaker 1: hands wasn't sigmatized because that's not sex, and writing love 903 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,520 Speaker 1: letters wasn't sigmatized because that's not sex. Right, So there's 904 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:11,560 Speaker 1: all these ways we could be intimate with our friends, 905 00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:13,520 Speaker 1: and it wasn't like, oh, are you know, are you 906 00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:15,680 Speaker 1: having sex with each other? Because none of those things 907 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,320 Speaker 1: are actually sex. And then Richard voncraft Ebbing and Sigmund Freud, 908 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:23,520 Speaker 1: they basically created the concept of sexual orientation. It's not 909 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:25,960 Speaker 1: just taboo for you to have sex with someone of 910 00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,120 Speaker 1: the same sex, but for you to have any of 911 00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:33,279 Speaker 1: these behaviors that together can comprise someone's sexual orientation. So 912 00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:35,880 Speaker 1: if you're holding hands with your friends, you're cuddling with 913 00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:37,520 Speaker 1: your friends, you're sharing the same bet, all the stuff 914 00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,040 Speaker 1: that was normal, all of a sudden that was very 915 00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:44,200 Speaker 1: stigmatized after them around eighteen sixty seven, Like friendship really 916 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,080 Speaker 1: changed forever because people became afraid of all of these 917 00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,560 Speaker 1: intimate behaviors and friendship that they might sigmify some sort 918 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:54,080 Speaker 1: of like sexual interests that they don't inherently signify. And 919 00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:56,880 Speaker 1: so that's when friendship sort of really changed, and it 920 00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,840 Speaker 1: was researchers call it homo hysteria, which is like the 921 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,879 Speaker 1: year of being perceived as gay, which like really just 922 00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,880 Speaker 1: destroyed friendship in a lot of ways, just like the 923 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,960 Speaker 1: normal intimacy and the normal closeness was just so stigmatized 924 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,799 Speaker 1: and really limited our scripts for what friendships can be 925 00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,320 Speaker 1: because it was like, Okay, now it's anything that doesn't 926 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:19,279 Speaker 1: convey sexual orientation and this is completely ambiguous and we 927 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:20,680 Speaker 1: don't know what it is, so let's just not do 928 00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:23,080 Speaker 1: any of these things. And so then friendship was just 929 00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:27,120 Speaker 1: really really flattened from then on, where now it's just 930 00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,880 Speaker 1: people feel like I can't love my friends too deeply 931 00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,719 Speaker 1: because otherwise it might be perceived as something else going on. 932 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:35,759 Speaker 1: Thank you for that history list, And I was not 933 00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:37,920 Speaker 1: aware of all of that, and I think that that helps. 934 00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:41,520 Speaker 1: It definitely helps to kind of put those things in context. So, 935 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,160 Speaker 1: you know, again kind of staying with this theme of 936 00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:48,160 Speaker 1: the similarities between romantic relationships and friendships, we do know 937 00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,879 Speaker 1: a lot of people kind of subscribe to like love languages, right, 938 00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:52,799 Speaker 1: I mean, we think about that a lot. I think 939 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,239 Speaker 1: in terms of partners and romantic relationships. There's even like 940 00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:58,920 Speaker 1: love languages related to like parenting and all of those things. 941 00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,520 Speaker 1: But I'd love to hear your thoughts about like love 942 00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:04,160 Speaker 1: languages in our friendships and what might we be able 943 00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:08,160 Speaker 1: to do to speak more of our friends love languages. Yeah, 944 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,440 Speaker 1: this is a great question. I think, similarly to the 945 00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,440 Speaker 1: transit of principle that we can use a lot of 946 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:16,879 Speaker 1: our romantic relationship stuff and our friendship stuff and vice versa. 947 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,240 Speaker 1: I think a lot of the same love languages could apply. 948 00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:21,320 Speaker 1: I don't think we use physical touch a lot in friendships. 949 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:23,400 Speaker 1: Maybe some friends to do, but I think we can 950 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:25,720 Speaker 1: ask our friends like, how do you like to receive 951 00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,680 Speaker 1: that I appreciate and value you? And I will also 952 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,600 Speaker 1: say that we should be thinking about how to give 953 00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,480 Speaker 1: our friends love, but we should also be thinking about 954 00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,759 Speaker 1: how we can receive our friends love better. I talk 955 00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:39,920 Speaker 1: about in the book how I have this friend and 956 00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,800 Speaker 1: every time I give her a compliment, she's like, no, 957 00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,160 Speaker 1: not really, I'm not that great. Sorry, And when I 958 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,439 Speaker 1: went into the research, I realized that and not saying 959 00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,040 Speaker 1: that this is her, but if you have low self esteem, 960 00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:54,560 Speaker 1: receiving love actually feels like an identity crisis because someone 961 00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,120 Speaker 1: is telling you that you are valuable and you're worthy, 962 00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,279 Speaker 1: and you don't actually feel that way, and so you 963 00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,319 Speaker 1: feel miss un understood, and it feels very threatening to 964 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,359 Speaker 1: receive love. And in that way you people with low 965 00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:07,600 Speaker 1: self esteem are actually more likely to like push the 966 00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:11,160 Speaker 1: love away so that it doesn't feel so threatening to them. 967 00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:12,839 Speaker 1: And I think there's a lot of times when we 968 00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,719 Speaker 1: avoidingly attached people. For example, according to the research, when 969 00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,399 Speaker 1: people were primed with avoidance and they thought about something 970 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:21,239 Speaker 1: nice and one did for them, they then assumed that 971 00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:24,319 Speaker 1: people just did that because they wanted something out of them. 972 00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,719 Speaker 1: And so it's actually also a skill to be able 973 00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,520 Speaker 1: to say, this is just pure hearted love someone's giving me, 974 00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:34,160 Speaker 1: and let me pause and actually receive that, because just 975 00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,239 Speaker 1: like we talked about earlier, how sharing love is a 976 00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,960 Speaker 1: form of vulnerability. If our friends trying to show affection 977 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,840 Speaker 1: towards us, that's a vulnerable act. We might be rejecting 978 00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:47,080 Speaker 1: them in all the time, I think love languages are 979 00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:50,920 Speaker 1: both learning how to love someone better and on the 980 00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,239 Speaker 1: other hand, learning how to receive our friends love better. 981 00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,720 Speaker 1: So you shared earlier. But I'm curious if there's anything 982 00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:01,279 Speaker 1: else that you've learned about who you are as a 983 00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:03,799 Speaker 1: friend from writing the book that you feel like would 984 00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,880 Speaker 1: be valuable to share with the rest of our community. 985 00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:12,120 Speaker 1: Dr Joy. I come from the Northeast, where we are 986 00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,680 Speaker 1: not an instrumental support culture, which means we don't do 987 00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:18,200 Speaker 1: things for each other, right, I know, in the South, 988 00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:20,520 Speaker 1: it's like, oh, I'll pick you up the airport and stuff, 989 00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:23,319 Speaker 1: and you know, I'll drop off some food and you know, 990 00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:26,399 Speaker 1: especially being from New York, like we're just not used to, 991 00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,480 Speaker 1: like I don't know, like those acts of service, I guess. 992 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,479 Speaker 1: And so for me, it was like, Wow, I'm really 993 00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,279 Speaker 1: missing out, I think by not having instrumental support be 994 00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:37,560 Speaker 1: part of my friendships. And I just really wanted to 995 00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,439 Speaker 1: become a more generous friend because I mean, I really 996 00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:42,600 Speaker 1: want to center my whole life around human connection more 997 00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:44,600 Speaker 1: than work, to be honest, after writing a book like this, 998 00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:47,480 Speaker 1: and I think that our society would be a lot 999 00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,040 Speaker 1: healthier if we did, because that's like our most fundamental 1000 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:53,200 Speaker 1: of needs. So for me, like I had started to 1001 00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:59,400 Speaker 1: not only practice more generosity, but it's about acknowledging how 1002 00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:04,759 Speaker 1: much you are benefiting someone, like thinking about how this 1003 00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:08,040 Speaker 1: is making someone feel loved and is making someone feel appreciated, 1004 00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:11,440 Speaker 1: and actually taking that in, pausing to take that in, 1005 00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:13,800 Speaker 1: like I talked about Rick Canson's work, that actually changes 1006 00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,200 Speaker 1: how our brains are wired when we can pause and 1007 00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,160 Speaker 1: take love in and we can pause and take the 1008 00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:21,080 Speaker 1: positive impact of our actions in. So I think like 1009 00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:23,640 Speaker 1: writing this book really made me a more generous person. 1010 00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:26,279 Speaker 1: But not only that, I think people think I can 1011 00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,680 Speaker 1: be little maybe radical about friendship because I like really 1012 00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:32,480 Speaker 1: questioned the scripts that we have about friendship, which are 1013 00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:35,560 Speaker 1: so limited, let's just hanging out once a month, have coffee. 1014 00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:39,640 Speaker 1: But I've realized throughout writing this book that anything that 1015 00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,919 Speaker 1: a traditional spouse can be a friend can be right. 1016 00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,680 Speaker 1: And now there's this whole movement of people choosing friends 1017 00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:49,279 Speaker 1: as life partners and raising kids with friends. And I'm 1018 00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:53,879 Speaker 1: just like, why the hell not, honestly, like, especially as 1019 00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,279 Speaker 1: black woman, right because I think, especially if you're a 1020 00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,600 Speaker 1: black woman that dates black men, the market is so skewed. 1021 00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,560 Speaker 1: Know it's just because of history and racism really limiting 1022 00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,400 Speaker 1: the population of black men. Like, why can't you also 1023 00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:09,520 Speaker 1: just like have a life partner that's a friend and 1024 00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,840 Speaker 1: that's like just as valid, that's just as significant, and 1025 00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:16,279 Speaker 1: I just yeah, it's really made me unravel. I think 1026 00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:18,920 Speaker 1: all of these all of the social messaging that to me, 1027 00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,680 Speaker 1: I'm like, this actually makes sense and actually like it's 1028 00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,320 Speaker 1: not actually radical because this was like traditional if you 1029 00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:26,839 Speaker 1: look back into history, so that is I think another way, 1030 00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:28,960 Speaker 1: it's changed the way that I've used friends, Like actually, 1031 00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:30,600 Speaker 1: like I talk about what does it mean to actually 1032 00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,759 Speaker 1: not love on a hierarchy? To like see my friendships 1033 00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:35,560 Speaker 1: is like just as valuable to me as like a 1034 00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,080 Speaker 1: romantic relationship. And it's really hard. Dr Joy. Like, I 1035 00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:40,040 Speaker 1: got invited to speak at a conference and they're like, 1036 00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:41,680 Speaker 1: you have a plus one And I had to take 1037 00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:43,720 Speaker 1: a second and be like do I bring my romantic 1038 00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:46,200 Speaker 1: partner or do I bring my friends? Because if I 1039 00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:48,239 Speaker 1: don't love on a hierarchy, you know, like I think 1040 00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:50,799 Speaker 1: about who would benefit the most from this experience. But 1041 00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,000 Speaker 1: then the conference was like, oh, you actually have to 1042 00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,759 Speaker 1: bring a spouse and I was like, Okay, this is 1043 00:52:55,800 --> 00:53:00,920 Speaker 1: why it's so hard. That seems like an intes thing requirement. 1044 00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:03,080 Speaker 1: I don't know that I've heard that the plus one 1045 00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:04,719 Speaker 1: has to be like oh, there has to be a 1046 00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:08,080 Speaker 1: romantic partner. It's interesting. Yeah, it's really interesting. I was 1047 00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:09,839 Speaker 1: going to send them a peace in my mind, but 1048 00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:14,200 Speaker 1: we don't want to damage the book sales. Yeah, say 1049 00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:18,040 Speaker 1: I gotta stay on platform. I say on platform. Well, 1050 00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:21,280 Speaker 1: I will join you in this radical movement to center 1051 00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:24,560 Speaker 1: friends because I think it's important. And I again with 1052 00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:27,239 Speaker 1: the overlap I think in our work, I think especially 1053 00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:29,799 Speaker 1: for black women, like this has been our history and 1054 00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:32,239 Speaker 1: so I'm just really excited that we are having more 1055 00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:34,880 Speaker 1: conversations around it and making sure that we are censoring 1056 00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:37,719 Speaker 1: each other, you know, because I do think the hierarchy 1057 00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:40,680 Speaker 1: is not necessarily like, it's not an exclusion, it's more 1058 00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:43,320 Speaker 1: of an expansion, right, Like, how can we get love 1059 00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:46,279 Speaker 1: from lots of different people? Because I'm not I'm like 1060 00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:49,600 Speaker 1: romantic love. It's beautiful and it's amazing, but plotonical. It's 1061 00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:54,400 Speaker 1: beautiful and it's also amazing. So where can we stay 1062 00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:57,080 Speaker 1: connected with you? Dr Franco? How can we stay connected 1063 00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:58,959 Speaker 1: to all the incredible work and all you have coming 1064 00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,640 Speaker 1: up for the book. Yeah, so my book is finally 1065 00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:04,400 Speaker 1: out Platonic How the Science of attachment can help you 1066 00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:06,279 Speaker 1: make and keep friends, which goes deeper into all the 1067 00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:08,480 Speaker 1: things I talked about today, and then if you want 1068 00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:11,640 Speaker 1: even more, I have a newsletter at my website www 1069 00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:14,600 Speaker 1: dot Doctor Mercy g Franco dot com. You can take 1070 00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,240 Speaker 1: a quiz that assesses your straits and weaknesses as a friend. 1071 00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:19,560 Speaker 1: I speak about how to make friends and how to 1072 00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:21,520 Speaker 1: find belonging at work. So you can also find that 1073 00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:24,400 Speaker 1: on my website or follow me for more friendship tips 1074 00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:27,400 Speaker 1: at Dr Mercy g Franco. That's m A R I 1075 00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:31,680 Speaker 1: s A g f r A CEO on Instagram. Perfect well, 1076 00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:33,560 Speaker 1: we will be insure to include all of that in 1077 00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:35,600 Speaker 1: the show notes. Thank you so much for joining us again, 1078 00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:41,120 Speaker 1: Dr Franco. Thank you so much for having me, Dr Joy. 1079 00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:43,880 Speaker 1: I'm so glad Dr Franco was able to join us 1080 00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:47,200 Speaker 1: again today. To learn more about her integrab your copy 1081 00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:50,040 Speaker 1: of Platonic, visit the show notes at Therapy for Black 1082 00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,479 Speaker 1: Girls dot com sash Session to seventy seven, and don't 1083 00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:55,640 Speaker 1: forget to text two of your girls and tell them 1084 00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:58,719 Speaker 1: to check out the episode right now. If you're looking 1085 00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:01,480 Speaker 1: for a therapist in your area, check out our therapist 1086 00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:04,920 Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. 1087 00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:07,400 Speaker 1: And if you want to continue digging into this topic 1088 00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:10,200 Speaker 1: or just be in community with other sisters, come on 1089 00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:12,560 Speaker 1: over and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our 1090 00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:15,280 Speaker 1: cozy corner of the Internet design just for black women. 1091 00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:18,239 Speaker 1: You can join us at Community dot Therapy for black 1092 00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:22,240 Speaker 1: girls dot com. This episode was produced by Freda Lucas 1093 00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:25,600 Speaker 1: and Alice Ellis and editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. 1094 00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:28,439 Speaker 1: Thank you all so much for joining me again this week. 1095 00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:31,200 Speaker 1: I look forward to continue in this conversation with you 1096 00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:33,600 Speaker 1: all real soon. Take good care,