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Speaker 1: So one of the most difficult things that people go

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Speaker 1: through in their life is when their integrity is questioned,

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Speaker 1: when an opportunity or an unfortunate circumstance presents itself on

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Speaker 1: whether or not people are going to crumble or they're

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Speaker 1: going to stand tall for what they believe in. My

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Speaker 1: guest today is one of those people. And when you

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Speaker 1: get to learn more about Rick and his story, you're

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Speaker 1: going to understand why he thinks the way he does.

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Speaker 2: And the reason why he stood up for what.

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Speaker 1: He did in terms of the corruption that was taking

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Speaker 1: place at Florida Tech. But what I really want you

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Speaker 1: to listen to is I want you to listen to

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Speaker 1: the breadth of knowledge that he has in terms of

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Speaker 1: understanding how human beings function, what drives them from a

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Speaker 1: neuroscience perspective, as well as what drives people to do

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Speaker 1: certain things psychologically. So, without further ado, Rick, welcome to

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Speaker 1: the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here.

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Speaker 2: You know, obviously the.

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Speaker 1: Easiest place to start would be to just, you know,

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Speaker 1: give us a quick synopsis of what took place at

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Speaker 1: Florida Tech and how you got to the position you're

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Speaker 1: in right now.

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Speaker 3: Sure, so for the past five years, I've been a

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Speaker 3: faculty member at excuse me, at Florida Institute of Technology,

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Speaker 3: I've been a tenured professor of psychology. I'm a neuroscientist

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Speaker 3: and also affiliate in the Department of Biomedical Engineering. And

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Speaker 3: so for the past five years I've been there teaching,

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Speaker 3: conducting research, winning NIH awards and grants, publishing discoveries of

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Speaker 3: the human brain, behavior, all that kind of good stuff.

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Speaker 3: And through the core of events, I was basically made

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Speaker 3: aware of the intention of our president and a cabal

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Speaker 3: of related faculty members to conspire to defraud the citizens

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Speaker 3: and the governor of the state of Florida, as well

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Speaker 3: as the federal government by virtue of non compliance with

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Speaker 3: federal and state directives for receiving state and federal funds

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Speaker 3: to the tune of first seven million dollars, specifically for

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Speaker 3: a grant that had been essentially stipulated by Governor Roncentus

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Speaker 3: and then from the federal Department of Education by virtue

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Speaker 3: of federal student loans. And I say that because that's

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Speaker 3: what I was told by the president of the university,

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Speaker 3: and he came to a meeting after a first initial meeting,

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Speaker 3: told us he was going to come to a meeting

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Speaker 3: and tell us these things of how he was going

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Speaker 3: to fight back against the government in order to continue

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Speaker 3: to do the prohibitive, prohibited activities of DEI and critical

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Speaker 3: race theory teaching and implementation, in order to who continued

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Speaker 3: to receive the state and federal funds. And then he

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Speaker 3: came and he did it, and I reported that we

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Speaker 3: blew the whistle on that. And at that point there

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Speaker 3: was a handful of things that happened, but ultimately I

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Speaker 3: was terminated unannounced, without any due process, any notification from

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Speaker 3: a tenured position that was probably about six weeks ago.

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Speaker 3: Left my family high and dry, without medical insurance for

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Speaker 3: my kids, salary income, whatever. And yeah, there's a whole

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Speaker 3: lot to unpack there, but the gist of it was,

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Speaker 3: I caught the president of the Florida Institute of Technology

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Speaker 3: coming to our meeting telling us that he had a

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Speaker 3: meeting at the Governor's office of the State of Florida.

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Speaker 3: Rondasantis was shaken down well by the governor and said,

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Speaker 3: why are you so woke? He said, I didn't say anything,

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Speaker 3: and his sin of a mission went home and said,

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Speaker 3: why don't we fight back? Well, when he came to

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Speaker 3: our meeting to tell us how he was going to

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Speaker 3: fight back. Well, and we're here in Florida, so this

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Speaker 3: is fighting back against your tax money to get a

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Speaker 3: seven million dollar grant. But then he went on to say,

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Speaker 3: so the seven million dollar grant was the first story

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Speaker 3: that came out from James O'Keefe O'Keefe Media Group. They

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Speaker 3: broke that in early April. But what we followed up

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Speaker 3: with in subsequent stories from o'keef media group was that

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Speaker 3: I basically found that it was way more than that,

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Speaker 3: because the president went on to say, this is more

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Speaker 3: than seven million dollars. He says, I don't mind losing it.

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Speaker 3: If I lose it, we lose it. What I'm worried

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Speaker 3: about losing is this federal student funding, which his vice

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Speaker 3: president published in the student paper the next day was

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Speaker 3: sixty nine million dollars. Wow, federal, that's a that's a

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Speaker 3: and that's why, right, if we can handle seven million

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Speaker 3: dollars somehow, right, but I don't want to lose sixty

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Speaker 3: nine million dollars because the vice president published in the

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Speaker 3: student newspapers and that'll shut our doors.

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Speaker 2: Wow. And so.

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Speaker 3: That's what we were told and you know, what do

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Speaker 3: you do when you're, you know, the unintending recipient of

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Speaker 3: information of that magnitude.

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Speaker 2: And navigate conscience? I don't think you can.

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Speaker 1: And I mean obviously it hits you to a point

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Speaker 1: where you recognize this, this isn't right. And I think

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Speaker 1: the thing that pops into my mind is is you know,

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Speaker 1: why did you think it wasn't right? What about the

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Speaker 1: programs that they were trying to protect? Do you did

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Speaker 1: you have a problem with Like I understand if it's

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Speaker 1: a directive and you seem like an individual we had

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Speaker 1: to chat prior to coming on that. You know, you

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Speaker 1: go by the letter of the law like this, if

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Speaker 1: these are the rules, I'm going to follow the rules.

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Speaker 1: And you identify that those rules had changed, and now

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Speaker 1: you were saying this is not correct, and on top

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Speaker 1: of them trying to pay you off, which is another

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Speaker 1: we'll get into that in a second, but but you recognize, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is not okay. But what about those rules? What

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Speaker 1: specifically about those ideologies? Because I think that's fundamentally what's

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Speaker 1: the argument. And this is happening obviously at institutions all

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Speaker 1: across the country and around the world. Right there's this

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Speaker 1: DEI initiative, which is diversity, equity and inclusion and which

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Speaker 1: is rooted in critical theory, critical race theory. So what

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Speaker 1: about that is problematic for you.

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Speaker 3: That's a really good question. I'll try to answer in

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Speaker 3: three different layers. First, I would say you're right and

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Speaker 3: that DEI stands for diversity, equity and inclusion. But it's

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Speaker 3: can I one time just hop in? I'm sorry?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and just could you describe what your PhDs are? So,

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Speaker 1: because I want people to understand it's you're not just

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Speaker 1: winging this from your back hit man like this. You

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Speaker 1: are an expert in psychology in neuroscience.

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Speaker 3: Well, as it happens, I'm also an expert in diversity

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Speaker 3: as well. I was actually a Diversity Fellow of the

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Speaker 3: American Psychological Association's Diversity Program in neuroscience during my doctoral

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Speaker 3: dissertation at UC Davis in the neuroscience PhD program. In

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Speaker 3: my neuroscience degree was earned as a PhD at UC Davis.

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Speaker 3: I was a Young Alum Award winner at UC Davis.

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Speaker 3: An undergraduate degree in psychology from the College of New Jersey.

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Speaker 3: I did a first PhD program down here in Boca

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Speaker 3: at Florida Institute or excuse me, Florida Atlantic University Center

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Speaker 3: for Complex Systems and Brain Science. Before transferring over to

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Speaker 3: UC Davis, I did a three year post doctoral fellowship

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Speaker 3: in neuroimaging at University of Texas Southwestern Medical School in Dallas,

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Speaker 3: and then was a faculty member at UT Dallas AND's

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Speaker 3: School of Brain Behavioral in Brain Sciences.

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Speaker 2: And then I've been uh.

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Speaker 1: So there are so there are many people out there

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Speaker 1: that understand how the human mind works from a neurological level,

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Speaker 1: biological level, psychological level. You think you've got that pretty

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Speaker 1: pretty well covered, huh recently.

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Speaker 2: So I'd say that there are absolutely people.

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Speaker 3: Like one of the things I always enjoyed about that

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Speaker 3: journey in the world of neuroscience was I will promise

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Speaker 3: you that I was and always loved being the absolutely

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Speaker 3: dumbest guy in the room. Like they're like, don't don't

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Speaker 3: get me wrong, Like, yeah, like there are brilliant, much

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Speaker 3: smarter people than I out there.

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Speaker 2: I think I was.

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Speaker 1: Well as he he told me before it becomes because

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Speaker 1: he's also a phenomenal collegiate wrestler as well too. He said,

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Speaker 1: I'm really just a knuckle dragon wrestler who got a

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Speaker 1: couple of degrees.

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Speaker 2: That's how he described it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, although I would say I definitely did not say phenomenal,

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Speaker 3: So I threw that in there. So this will be

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Speaker 3: a slight tangent to answering your question about DEI and

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Speaker 3: my caroscience credentials. But just for a point of full clarity,

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Speaker 3: I was a walk on Division three wrestler, which means

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Speaker 3: if Division three is the bottom of Division one two three,

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Speaker 3: and i'm JV is the bottom of that, and the

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Speaker 3: walk on is beneath.

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Speaker 2: That, I was that guy.

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Speaker 3: So I was the walk on, and I took great

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Speaker 3: pride though as a as a walk on college wrestler

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Speaker 3: at one of the top programs in the country that

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Speaker 3: after four years, I was the only one in my

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Speaker 3: entire freshman class of blue chip recruits left standing who

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Speaker 3: actually completed four years and never quit.

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Speaker 1: So you can, you can call it the bottom of

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Speaker 1: the bottom of the bottom, but that's not the way

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Speaker 1: I see it.

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Speaker 2: I was up by car in the middle of that.

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Speaker 3: It was never a fifty miles an hour, and I

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Speaker 3: still finished four years straight. And some of those guys,

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Speaker 3: you know, injuries happened, you know these years. I'm not

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Speaker 3: you know, you know, it's not because they were just

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Speaker 3: some guys quit just quitters, but other guys, I mean,

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Speaker 3: they just things come up. You take a red shirt.

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Speaker 3: Year I happened, I was the only guy left standing.

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Speaker 3: And so you know, for I know, you come from

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Speaker 3: a strong background of never quitting and persevering through things

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Speaker 3: like buds. You know, that kind of an ethos is

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Speaker 3: what I what I brought to the neuroscience.

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Speaker 1: Well, and I think that's why you're able to keep

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Speaker 1: going in the way you are, because you learn that

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Speaker 1: on the mats and you don't learn that anywhere else.

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Speaker 1: I really believe that any combatives, in particular wrestling or

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Speaker 1: jiu jitsu, are you just learn so much about yourself.

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Speaker 1: And maybe after we get through all this other stuff,

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Speaker 1: I want to spend some time and your thoughts on

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Speaker 1: performance and what that never quip mindset is like if

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Speaker 1: you're okay.

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Speaker 3: With oh, absolutely great, I mean, and I think that

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Speaker 3: there's an indispensable element of you learn about suffering and

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Speaker 3: how to suffer.

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Speaker 2: That's right, you know, in both of our walks of life,

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Speaker 2: that's right.

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Speaker 3: And when you learn that sort of cheat code to

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Speaker 3: the game, anything's possible, all.

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Speaker 1: Right, So we've established you know what you're talking about

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Speaker 1: when it comes to the human mind.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk.

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Speaker 1: About then DEI critical race theory back at all the way,

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Speaker 1: even critical theory.

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Speaker 3: So the answer to your question I was getting at

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Speaker 3: was that you said that DEI is rooted in diversity,

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Speaker 3: equity and conclude and inclusion, and I would push back

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Speaker 3: and contend that it's rooted in discrimination, it's rooted in exclusion,

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Speaker 3: and it's rooted in a fundamental pattern that we see

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Speaker 3: in effectively communists. To control, they want to exclude people,

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Speaker 3: they want to define them by how they're different, and

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Speaker 3: they want to prioritize one group of people over another.

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Speaker 3: They use that policy, whether it's DEI or Title nine

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Speaker 3: or any kind of element that it brushes up against,

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Speaker 3: as a cudgel to control us, to control you. They

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Speaker 3: want to control you. They want to control what you do.

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Speaker 3: But they can't do that without controlling what you say

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Speaker 3: and what you think. And that's ultimately how it's manifested.

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Speaker 3: That's how I've seen it manifested on campuses across the country,

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Speaker 3: and it's part of.

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Speaker 1: The California, New Jersey, California, Texas, and Florida. So you've

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Speaker 1: been how many in Florida too? In Florida, so you've

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Speaker 1: been at five major universities.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and across the span of like what you might

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Speaker 3: think of as like demographics. I've gone from public liberal

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Speaker 3: arts colleges in New Jersey to the biggest, you know,

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Speaker 3: broadest education system there is, which is cal State, which

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Speaker 3: is I think four hundred and five hundred thousand students

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Speaker 3: system wide. I was a ten yurre tract professor there

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Speaker 3: around a director of a neuroscience lab, and to the

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Speaker 3: University of Texas, which is right there as like one

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Speaker 3: of the biggest systems in the country. But that's that's

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Speaker 3: a little bit different profile than the cal State system.

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Speaker 3: And now I've been at a private technical school in

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Speaker 3: Florida as well. So this is a universal kind of

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Speaker 3: like pattern that we see, which is this this systemic

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Speaker 3: use of things like Title nine and DEI as a weaponization.

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Speaker 3: And so one of the things that have been popular

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Speaker 3: in the news has been weaponization and government, and I'm

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Speaker 3: glad to see that that's being addressed at the tip

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Speaker 3: of the spear of the highest political levels, because the

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Speaker 3: government was weaponized against presidents and his cabinet and other

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Speaker 3: people like that. But one of the things that you know,

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Speaker 3: I always like to send as a message to the

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Speaker 3: administration pursuing the correction of those weaponizations is the reminder

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Speaker 3: that all the regular citizens are subjected to this weaponization,

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Speaker 3: to this cudgel of discrimination and exclusion, that that hurts

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Speaker 3: every day, Joe's that hurts everybody at every no name

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Speaker 3: like regional state school. That the weaponization of government has

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Speaker 3: to be investigated or neat or should be against the

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Speaker 3: regular people who who comprise the government. Other people I

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Speaker 3: firmly agree.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's endless stories about you know, very high

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Speaker 1: performing kids, and it's I'm not just talking about white kids,

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Speaker 1: it's Asian kids, It's it's all different types of kids that,

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Speaker 1: through the the coveted idea of meritocracy, they believe that

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Speaker 1: if they work as hard as humanly possible, they're going

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Speaker 1: to get the opportunity to challenge right to get in

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Speaker 1: uh in the arena.

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Speaker 2: So to speak.

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Speaker 1: And I how soon did you start seeing this, Like

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Speaker 1: how far back does this go.

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Speaker 2: In your mind?

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Speaker 3: Anecdotally I felt it as a student applying to applying

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Speaker 3: to colleges, applying to graduate schools, applying for fellowships and

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Speaker 3: schol scholarships.

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Speaker 2: As I.

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Speaker 3: Went to public school in New Jersey. I paid my

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Speaker 3: way with you school one hundred percent financed on my

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Speaker 3: own between cash working as a landscaper and a bar

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Speaker 3: back and a bouncer basically literally landscaping by day and

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Speaker 3: bar fighting at night. Wow paid cash, took loans for

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Speaker 3: the rest of It. Took me twenty five years to

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Speaker 3: pay off those loans by virtue of support from the

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Speaker 3: National Institute of Health grants I received. But you know,

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Speaker 3: I felt like, and I'm sure that this is something

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Speaker 3: that has resonated with a lot of people that no

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Speaker 3: matter how hard you work, like it still seemed boxed out.

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Speaker 3: Along that journey, I would sit in classes at Princeton

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Speaker 3: for five years, learning all sorts of things from their

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Speaker 3: visiting speakers and college dressler. I was a finalist for

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Speaker 3: the RHDES Scholarship in New Jersey in two thousand and four,

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Speaker 3: and I actually got interviewed by Corey Booker for it.

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Speaker 3: But oh yeah, he was the mayor in Newark at

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Speaker 3: the time. And you know, so so no matter how,

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Speaker 3: no matter what we were doing even at that point,

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Speaker 3: so people need to unpack and the idea that's very fresh.

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Speaker 3: The last fifteen months or so, affirmative action was deemed illegal,

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Speaker 3: but for generations beforehand, that was the law of land.

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Speaker 3: People thought it wasn't just good, but it was merited

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Speaker 3: and you know, like proper and so you're always essentially.

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Speaker 2: Racing against quotas.

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Speaker 1: Is there a component to the the initial construct of

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Speaker 1: the idea that underprivileged under under what are they called

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Speaker 1: underprivileged underserve service minorities and areas in particular academic right

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Speaker 1: that they're they're really is an unfair system in place?

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Speaker 2: Is Is there truth to that at all?

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Speaker 3: Yes, if you consider the promotion of any one race

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Speaker 3: over another to be unfair. And I think you know,

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Speaker 3: I wasn't alive in previous eras, but I have I'm

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Speaker 3: very easily convinced. I have no doubt that they absolutely

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Speaker 3: were subjected to discrimination. And I think discrimination is wrong,

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Speaker 3: but I think discrimination of anyone is wrong. And that's

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Speaker 3: part of the answer your question of what's wrong with

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Speaker 3: DEI it discriminates it. And this isn't for me, by

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Speaker 3: the way, this is coming from executive orders from the

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Speaker 3: White House, the Department of Justice, Office of Civil Rights,

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Speaker 3: and the United States Supreme Court, which is said it

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Speaker 3: is wrong to do this and to discriminate upon anyone.

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Speaker 3: Racism is not a cure for racism. It's not the fix,

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Speaker 3: it's the problem. And so that's one of the problems

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Speaker 3: that's wrong with it. And I grew up on a

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Speaker 3: public housing in Chicago. We had one dollar a month rent.

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Speaker 3: My mom was a single mom, and then I swisch

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Speaker 3: I had lived at a single dad. Like we we

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Speaker 3: came from poorness, right, We were on food stamps, we

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Speaker 3: were on government services, and and you know, like there's

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Speaker 3: there is a really a valuable place I think for

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Speaker 3: supporting people from under service or underserved backgrounds. But you know,

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Speaker 3: that doesn't mean that the manifestation of how these policies

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Speaker 3: have emerged is correct, because it's not. And that's not

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Speaker 3: me saying that. That's the officite civil rights from them.

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Speaker 3: And anybody who's you know, had a sniff of culture

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Speaker 3: over the last stretch of years has seen how this

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Speaker 3: has gone awry. It's been used incorrectly. I've personally seen

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Speaker 3: it on campus weaponized in many different ways. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I've had students complain that I address a room full

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Speaker 3: of women as ladies. Hey, ladies, you're ready for class,

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Speaker 3: say majority of women in class. They say, that's that's

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Speaker 3: gender stereotypes. You can't control someone's speech to that extent.

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Speaker 3: While earlier telling me I shouldn't say you guys, which

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Speaker 3: is the standard per a way of addressing you said

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Speaker 3: that too.

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Speaker 1: On your interview as too is that you talked about

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Speaker 1: the guy's comment as well. It's when you were first

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Speaker 1: entering academia did you hear did you hear the language

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Speaker 1: first before the policy kind of laid down? When when,

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Speaker 1: in your mind was the real shift where they had

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Speaker 1: been testing the waters? Right? You date back when I

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Speaker 1: was in college in the early nineties, right, and it

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Speaker 1: was political correctness, right, and that was the emergence of it.

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Speaker 1: That's where it felt like academia in particular, probably sociologists

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Speaker 1: right in that whole department and the humanities were started

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Speaker 1: to you know, pull at the edges of what was

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Speaker 1: feasible or possible with this critical theory stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think like anything like slowly and then

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Speaker 3: all at once.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So you know, I started college in the year two

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Speaker 3: thousand one. Thing I would say, and we talked about

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Speaker 3: this briefly off air, but I think it's a it's

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Speaker 3: an applicable answer of an analogy. When did I start

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Speaker 3: to see that? So after nine to eleven, I was

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Speaker 3: in Jersey. We had students at my university leaves their

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Speaker 3: parents Oh wow, you know, like we were. They grew

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Speaker 3: up across the river. They worked at the World Trade

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Speaker 3: Center And why I was there that Saturday the fifteenth

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Speaker 3: thereafter helping as a relief worker and so, and you.

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Speaker 1: Talked a little bit about to just explain that a

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Speaker 1: little bit so you can bring people to what that

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Speaker 1: was like in that moment.

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Speaker 3: That was a it was a very challenging. So if

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Speaker 3: you remember that time, nobody knew really what was happening.

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Speaker 3: So the World Trade Center was attacked on a Tuesday,

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Speaker 3: and I was there that Saturday, I think it was

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Speaker 3: the fifteenth, and there it was locked down by the

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Speaker 3: Marines for the most part, like nobody really knew who

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Speaker 3: hit us yet, and so we didn't really know what

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Speaker 3: was happening. It was essentially a militarized environ right right,

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Speaker 3: And obviously their bodies still live as well. People were

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Speaker 3: still survived under the rubble, and we uh some guys

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Speaker 3: that I lived with and worked with set up a

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Speaker 3: bus to go up there and try to help you. No,

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Speaker 3: it was boxed off. But somebody's mom worked for the

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Speaker 3: Red Cross and she thought we could get in. So

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Speaker 3: we basically made fake ideas of the Red Cross. Uh,

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Speaker 3: snuck in past the Marine line, walked down Canal Street

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Speaker 3: and and did whatever we could in a small way

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Speaker 3: to help and and really just try to support the

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Speaker 3: firefighters and the people there who hadn't slept in three days.

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Speaker 2: Wow. And you could.

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Speaker 4: See and you could see like people's fingers written like

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Speaker 4: the writing on the the windows of ash Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 4: of like our ip of their friend, Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 2: You know the firefighters.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and my brother is a firefighter now and outside

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Speaker 3: of Austin, and I told him that when he was

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Speaker 3: in training and stuff. Wow, like it was it was

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Speaker 3: hard to see that. And we didn't feel like we didn't.

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Speaker 3: We give them water and food and try to help them.

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Speaker 3: And you get there at the rubble, you saw the site.

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Speaker 3: But you smell smell is what you had talked about. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's a very unique burn smell.

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Speaker 2: It's not a good one. You don't want to smell

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Speaker 2: it again. And it's a smell you never forget.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, and so it was a very profound experience

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Speaker 3: as a college kid at that age. We walked and

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Speaker 3: I I was telling Jesse Barnett this. The other day

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Speaker 3: they did that seal swim. Yeah, not too long ago,

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Speaker 3: was it last week? And they had a parade that

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Speaker 3: they walked. And what happened then is is nobody really

398
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Speaker 3: talked about this at that time that I don't know

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Speaker 3: why the news never really covered it. But there was

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Speaker 3: a street that you take to go to the World

401
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Speaker 3: Trade Center. It's called Canal Street, and it was blocked

402
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Speaker 3: off for miles because it was an obvious ground zero site.

403
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Speaker 3: But we walked once we snuck past essentially the marine

404
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 3: guards fake, I tease, I'm sixteenths and stuff. Yeah, we

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Speaker 3: walked down that street and it's covered with tanks or

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Speaker 3: not tanks, big army trucks might as well be tanks us.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, right?

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Speaker 1: We know anything you know od green is something that

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Speaker 1: can kill you, right, And when news trucks it's this

410
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Speaker 1: boxed off line of lane for about a mile, but

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Speaker 1: it's and you walk there in surreal silence.

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Speaker 3: But it wasn't exactly silent because the sides of the

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Speaker 3: roads was packed with people cheering, wow, every single first

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Speaker 3: responder that walked in or walked out, and that we

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Speaker 3: were stunned. It was a very somber moment, you know,

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Speaker 3: and we didn't expect that. All the news never talked

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Speaker 3: about that. I've never seen it really featured and all

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Speaker 3: that time. But there were New York citizens who twenty

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Speaker 3: four hours a day through the middle of the night,

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Speaker 3: they would cheer for every single person that walked in

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Speaker 3: and out, and especially the walking out part, because when

422
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 3: you're walking out and leaving their destroyed, like like the

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00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 3: firefighters or the rescue workers or the police people who

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00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 3: were searching for their friends, they were walking out either

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Speaker 3: successful which is not good, right because they found things

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Speaker 3: they didn't really want to see and find they hadn't

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Speaker 3: slept for days, or they weren't walking out unsuccessful, which

428
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Speaker 3: is also.

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Speaker 2: Not massive what.

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Speaker 3: They wanted to have happened. You know, they didn't find

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Speaker 3: what they were looking for. And so just know that

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Speaker 3: people were cheering for them that entire mile walk out

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Speaker 3: like like we it wasn't right for us because we

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Speaker 3: weren't those people like we we didn't deserve that applause

435
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 3: and support. But you also couldn't tell the people, no, yeah,

436
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Speaker 3: you had you had to.

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Speaker 1: Well, they're there for their own reason as well, too,

438
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Speaker 1: right that it's the Catharsis for them to support in

439
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 1: any way they can. And I mean, what what more

440
00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 1: rudimentary way to support another human being by demonstrating an

441
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: overt approval right applause A good job, great job.

442
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 2: It gives.

443
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 3: It's giving the chill just thinking about it, because it

444
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 3: was it was so inappropriate for us because we didn't

445
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 3: do anything deserving of that, But you couldn't tell them

446
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 3: not to, so you had to just take it, which

447
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 3: is a weird thing to say. You had to take

448
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 3: this credit for something that we didn't really deserve. Well,

449
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 3: and but it's very profound. It was very inspiring of

450
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 3: the human spirit, I bet because I took that away

451
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 3: from it, like out of all that death and destruction,

452
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 3: there was goodness and there is goodness in people, and

453
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 3: I think that that is very important to remember in

454
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 3: dark times.

455
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,640
Speaker 1: Well, I think it locks into us, right and when

456
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: you you know, to go back to you know what

457
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 1: you've pursued so vigorously over your adult life in terms

458
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: of understanding the impacts of that where it comes from

459
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,640
Speaker 1: why it's important, How it alters our burying chemistry, how

460
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: it alters our cognition, how it enhances or you know

461
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: ingrains neuropathways. I mean, that's the root of everything that

462
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: you ended up becoming an expert in. And I think,

463
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 1: you know, it's really interesting to me as you shared

464
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: that with me, Like you know, in my mind, it's like, wow,

465
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 1: how does a person become so I mean, maybe infatuated

466
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: is probably too strong of a word for it, but

467
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 1: I mean it's certainly a It's heavier than a focus,

468
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: maybe not quite an obsession. It's that drive, right that

469
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: we keep talking about, that motivational drive that trigger in us.

470
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,959
Speaker 1: You know, I would imagine that that experience was a

471
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,679
Speaker 1: profound push for you to really understand how we function

472
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: and what enables us to to to either you know,

473
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: endeavor to persevere within the nine to eleven or what

474
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 1: drives the creation of DEI you know, I mean I

475
00:26:58,359 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: would imagine that that that.

476
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 3: I mean, I went home and I wanted to I

477
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,679
Speaker 3: want to do enlist. I was in my wrestling season.

478
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 3: I was also jacked up. I had torn rotator cuffs

479
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 3: and bad kneed. Like but like every young man at

480
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 3: that age you want to do Enlist. But I also thought,

481
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 3: strangely enough at the time, like I was a little

482
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 3: worried about like not knowing who was that did this.

483
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 3: And I'm like, I'm like, oh, and I should say too.

484
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 2: There was something like in.

485
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 3: One of the parks, like people just went missing. Yeah,

486
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 3: there was like three thousand people missing at Union Square.

487
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 3: I have pictures from a yellow polaroid like disposable camera

488
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 3: that day in Times Square, just missing posters everywhere. So

489
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 3: it was like it seemed like the rapture, like people

490
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 3: were just gone. They were there one moment and gone

491
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 3: wow the next. And I thought, and I mentioned this

492
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,919
Speaker 3: a few moments ago when we were chatting, I'm like,

493
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 3: you know, I grew up in public housing. I had

494
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 3: a really really bad, abusive child that I ran away

495
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 3: when I was sixteen, ended up in New Jersey, had

496
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 3: rebuilt to you know, get to Princeton. No, I'm in college.

497
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 3: I'm paying my way through. I'm like, I kind of

498
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 3: wanted to finish like something in my life.

499
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 2: I started.

500
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 3: Wow, you know, I've never been at the same school

501
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 3: that I started at and I always transfer, So I'm like,

502
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 3: I really wanted to finish college, and I thought, as

503
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 3: much as I want to enlist, like September sixteenth or twelfth. Yeah,

504
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 3: after each of those two days, I'm like, if we're

505
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 3: starting a land war in Asia, I'm pretty sure it'll

506
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 3: be there in three years when I'm done. Certainly was,

507
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 3: and so that's it kept me out in that respect.

508
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 3: But I mentioned it as when did I start to

509
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 3: see these things happening on campuses? Well, like months after

510
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 3: that in New Jersey at our school where students had

511
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 3: had parents pass away, they were not allowing students to

512
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 3: fly the American flag out in their dorm room windows

513
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 3: and the first and it was a big story at

514
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 3: the time, and they they played it off like, oh,

515
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:58,239
Speaker 3: it's a fire code thing.

516
00:28:58,240 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 2: So we brought out the fire.

517
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 3: Chief from Trenton. He's like, Nah, that is not a

518
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 3: fire code. You played the flag wow. And the school

519
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 3: did everything they could wiggle their way out of it.

520
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 3: I wrote an op ed in the paper for the school.

521
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 2: Oh my god. I sent it to til Meyer, who

522
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 2: was the Oh my god.

523
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 3: Afterwards when we were talking, I wrote an OpEd It's

524
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 3: I tweeted it a couple of days ago because they're

525
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 3: having the same flag issue right now in England with

526
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 3: the Saint George flag. That's so I started seeing this

527
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 3: happen back then. We were deeply enmeshed. And of course,

528
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 3: like on the college campuses at the time, there was

529
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 3: a big, you know, anti war movement that emerged through

530
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 3: that process too, So you saw a lot of that

531
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 3: kind of cultural build up.

532
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 2: But that was evident. Very anti war protests were not

533
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 2: unique though.

534
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: I mean, we've been having it for long long period

535
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 1: and you know, there is a component of that that

536
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: is fair, it's right, it's your freedom of speech, and

537
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: when you are in the in a college environment, that's

538
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 1: when that activism is kind of planted, right, But there's

539
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: also a counter activism that can take place, Like people

540
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: should be able to be as patriotic as they want,

541
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: they should be able to counteract the elders, right, and

542
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: that would be that's that's that's the that's the equality

543
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 1: of that type of ideological stance.

544
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 3: Well, and if you were I don't know if you

545
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 3: were in the service or civilian side at that time,

546
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 3: but like that's what I was in so at that time,

547
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 3: certainly on campuses and in the civilian world, this is when

548
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 3: things started to emerge where part of that issue with

549
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 3: the flag then on campus for the American flag was

550
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 3: that you need hold it out of administrators. They finally

551
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 3: started saying, well, it could be offensive to some people

552
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 3: at that point, that the boogeyman was Islam or Muslims, right,

553
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 3: which you know, you want to be fairer and whatnot.

554
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 3: So people people were starting to sow those seeds of

555
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 3: saying that America is bad, our symbol of freedom is bad,

556
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 3: which is, by the way, like flying over every bridge

557
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 3: and roadside, and certainly in New Jersey at the time, across.

558
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 1: The New York kid the whole country, I mean, I

559
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: mean in California, which was already moving towards a much

560
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: I think, more rapid progressivism than anywhere else. Every single house,

561
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: every single building, every single inspiring.

562
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 2: That's right.

563
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 3: It brought people together. That's in such a unique way

564
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 3: because we are one. We're a country of countrymen together.

565
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 3: And it was already starting to have people claw that

566
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 3: apart by saying that that's not a good symbol because

567
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 3: it could offend somebody. And so that's when I started

568
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 3: seeing things. And at the same time, it's interesting that yes,

569
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 3: that because I haven't thought about it for probably twenty years.

570
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 3: But during that time and two thousand and two thousand

571
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 3: and five, when I was in school, there there were

572
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 3: a rash of these things that ended up being these

573
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 3: false cases of what they called hate crimes, which was

574
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 3: anathema to say back then. But now it's twenty twenty five,

575
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 3: we have an extraordinary documented record now of of of

576
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 3: josey small ads.

577
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 2: That's right.

578
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 3: It was that was happening back then, and we were

579
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 3: like the NASCAR, it happen on my campus. We had

580
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 3: these things that we had teachings. Classes were canceled in

581
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 3: two thousand and two, two thousand and three for like

582
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 3: people who claimed that they had swastika has written on

583
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 3: their doors.

584
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 2: People who claimed.

585
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 3: That, uh, they had whatever, some attacks for their sexuality

586
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 3: or something. And it turns out and all of them

587
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 3: they're fake, all of them like they were like and

588
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 3: his memory hold. People forget about that. But back then

589
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 3: we saw it early enough. And that's when I started

590
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 3: to see these things and and and then you know,

591
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 3: if you think about you know again, like culture, the

592
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 3: cultural history of say, affirmative action was built into the

593
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 3: cultural psychological makeup beneath us as being valid, appropriate, proper

594
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 3: and legal.

595
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 2: Up until just a year about a year ago.

596
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 3: So people are wrestling with that, I think psychologically because

597
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 3: they're like, this thing that we thought was right, how

598
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 3: do you psychologically handle now thinking that that's wrong? And

599
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 3: so I think we're seeing some cultural classes on that too.

600
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 3: But what we're seeing now in DEI manifestations on campus

601
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 3: is like the ten X steroid version of that, where

602
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 3: if like affirmative action was bud light, this is but heavy.

603
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

604
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 3: And what was gentle so to speak, in afirmative action

605
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 3: called some quotas trying to make sure people are balanced

606
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 3: out this and that that. People were kind of okay

607
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 3: for a while managing They're like, all right, what is

608
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 3: manifesting on college campuses now for everyone's children, grands kids

609
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 3: and campuses whatever? Is not the protection of discrimination but

610
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 3: the providence providence of it, right, And it's that's what

611
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 3: that came about in about twenty ten, after the mid

612
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 3: term elections in twenty ten, they knew administratively that they

613
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 3: had the goods and the political inertia to impose these

614
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 3: draconian measures that no longer just protected people from discrimination,

615
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 3: which is great, right, awesome, Right, I don't want you discriminated.

616
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 3: I don't want my other friends discriminated. That's who you know, like,

617
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 3: and I'm part Native American. Like the nobody's talking about

618
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 3: that because those are not things that we want to happen.

619
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 3: But what this DEI stuff is doing now is actually

620
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 3: giving a preference and saying, hold these people back and

621
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 3: push these other people forward. Right, that's a whole new

622
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 3: level of steroids, so to speak, for sure, at a

623
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,479
Speaker 3: policy level. And that's what's so problematic about them, because

624
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 3: it's not about diversity, it's not about equity, it's not

625
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:51,359
Speaker 3: about inclusion. It's about hurting people by holding them back

626
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 3: and preferring and pushing other people forward. That's essentially just communism.

627
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 3: That's in mafia. That's however you want to conceptualize that,

628
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 3: that's not it's not American, I mean, it's it's absolutely communism.

629
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 3: And that's and that's I think the real key is,

630
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,919
Speaker 3: like you go back and you start researching critical theory, right,

631
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 3: and how that emerged, where it emerged, where.

632
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 1: It came out of, you know, and you've you know,

633
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,879
Speaker 1: you've got you take that back another step and you're

634
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 1: you know, you're four steps away from communism and right,

635
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 1: you know, through the academy of people escaping you know,

636
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: communist places in you know, East Germany and all these

637
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 1: you know, really areas where psychological development, the development of psychology, psychiatry,

638
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: that type of thing that emerged right late eighteen eighties

639
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: in Europe, Vienna in particular, and as it fantastasized through

640
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: you know, those two kind of you know, socialistic ideas,

641
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: you know, they ended up coming over here and repopulating

642
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: the universities. Now, I think it was able to keep

643
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: in check for a long long period of time because

644
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: I think for mole the tudor reasons. One, you know,

645
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 1: the the boards you know, weren't as corrupt as they

646
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: ultimately became. The money wasn't as big as it used

647
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: to be, you know. And then I think probably in

648
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 1: the nineties you had this you know, massive ship towards

649
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 1: these how do you get funding in And.

650
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 2: Did you notice it?

651
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: And this is the we're kind of dancing around it

652
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: in your career progression, When did you start to see

653
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 1: that it was rooted in the administrative area and correlated

654
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: to federal dollars and so there was a direct correlation

655
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: to promote it as instead of just ideologically.

656
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 3: Well, goodness that I mean, so I was I think

657
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 3: I applied for a National Science Foundation fellowship as a

658
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 3: college student for the graduate research fellowship. I was an

659
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 3: honorable mention for the grad program as an undergraduate. And

660
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 3: even back then, certainly in the time since they required

661
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 3: these diversity statements to be real, and they have now

662
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 3: taken hold in the subsequent decade that followed or so,

663
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 3: and now they're un retreat again because people are realizing

664
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 3: that that's what they were starting to do. It was

665
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 3: kind of like compelling your speech to tell you to

666
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 3: to say some sort of a statement about like why

667
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 3: you're going to make sure that you have a commitment

668
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 3: to social justice and diversity in order to get these

669
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 3: funds right, and you.

670
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 2: Know, and that's grant money, that's oh yeah, that's everything.

671
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 3: It's for faculty jobs, that's for job graduate schoolssions. I

672
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,399
Speaker 3: was on the admissions committee for the pH d program

673
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 3: at you see, Davis Well, I've been on admissions committees

674
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 3: all over the place, like yeah, like that was that

675
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 3: was a part of it too. And so it's kind

676
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 3: of like you're you're forcing people to do these and

677
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 3: I imagine in the military world, It's similar for officer

678
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 3: promotions or other things. Right, there are things that when

679
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 3: you set the benchmarks, this is this is the h

680
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 3: the tune that we're going to play, people figure out

681
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 3: how to dance with the tune.

682
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 2: Because you have to if you want to advance.

683
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 3: So, like those things were happening probably in parallel in

684
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 3: those in those cultures, and you know so, so I

685
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 3: started seeing that happen through those times. I saw Title

686
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 3: nine get weaponized in so many different ways when I

687
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 3: when I was a professor at ET Dallas, I had

688
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 3: a student make a false claim and threat against me

689
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 3: on Title nine in class. This is kind of a

690
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 3: funny story. The I was teaching a class and I

691
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 3: get this is a class you were teaching probably neurobiology

692
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 3: or systems neuroscience or something a science class.

693
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, straight up science science class where theoretically there

694
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 1: is no you know, discrimination in science.

695
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 3: Right now, this is the name was behave Real NEUROSCIGNCE.

696
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 3: So this I get this, I get this email after

697
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 3: class and there's two hundred kids in the class. I

698
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 3: get get a lot of emails and and you love

699
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 3: working with students like I was. I'm a wrestling coach

700
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 3: by at heart and by trade, and like that's why

701
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:13,760
Speaker 3: we do what we do. I like love to teach,

702
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 3: to coach, to mentor all the stuff that that you

703
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 3: champion and are our champion of yourself. So many good

704
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 3: ways that that I've benefited from uh listening and watching

705
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 3: your stuff for so many years. And so the student

706
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 3: come sends me this email. It's like a night class.

707
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 3: It's like eight o'clock. Now class is over. I get

708
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 3: this email and it was something to the tune. She's like,

709
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 3: I saw and heard what you said to me in class.

710
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 3: I didn't know you felt that way. I feel the

711
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 3: same way too. It's only harassment if I report you.

712
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 3: Here's my number. And I had I looked like that,

713
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 3: and I'm like, so I had just gotten engaged. My

714
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,760
Speaker 3: fiance had just left the country to start veterinary school

715
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 3: in the island of Grenado, which we invaded a at

716
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 3: that school it's Angelge University. So what we had just

717
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 3: gotten engaged. She had just gone to start that. And

718
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 3: the first thing I did was I send it to her.

719
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 3: I'm like, you need to know that this just happened. Yeah,

720
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 3: you need to know it's not true. And like and

721
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 3: the best funny part about it is I tell this

722
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 3: story to students a lot. Now I send her a

723
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 3: picture of the student so that she knew this was

724
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 3: not a problem. It was an impossibility because she was

725
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 3: a dog like it was. It was like, yeah, like

726
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 3: it was so And if the.

727
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: Motivation is is is I mean the fact that a

728
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: student set has the capacity for that setup is remarkable

729
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: because she was taught that there was a weaponization of

730
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: Title nine.

731
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 2: So that's only.

732
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 3: I mean, Look, people come on to people all the time, Okay,

733
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 3: their adults on college campuses.

734
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's not right.

735
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 3: But like, but the lynch pin of the story is

736
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:58,839
Speaker 3: that this is an answer. This is why I say

737
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 3: it doesn't answer you ques, when did I STI to

738
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 3: see this turn of the screw to a weaponization Like

739
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 3: I'm a junior, first year professor or whatever it was,

740
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 3: and she is she knows she has leverage over me

741
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 3: by telling me it's only a problem if she reports me,

742
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 3: and that she won't report me, she'll she'll essentially extort

743
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 3: me to do what she wants me to do to her.

744
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: And like, I mean the manipulation level in that is

745
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 1: that's tier one.

746
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so but she was given the institutional knowledge

747
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 3: to know that that was capable to hold people hostage too,

748
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 3: And so I immediately sent it off to the Title

749
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 3: nine director. Uh, you know, the university did their investigation.

750
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 3: First thing I did is I sent it to my wife,

751
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,959
Speaker 3: because you know, she's what you do. She was thinking,

752
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 3: you know, I've got this young fiance teaching classes with

753
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 3: a bunch of college girls, Like I have to be

754
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 3: very very respectful and fair to her.

755
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:56,879
Speaker 2: So I send it to her. I showed her the picture.

756
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 3: I'm like, this is not a problem, and it could

757
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 3: become one for sure, different kind of problem. They investigate

758
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 3: that for a while, and I get a call from

759
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 3: Title nine and so, and I should say, the student.

760
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 2: Didn't know.

761
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,800
Speaker 3: That I had been video recording my lectures in twenty fifteen.

762
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 3: They were on YouTube everything. This is like way before zoom,

763
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 3: way before the pandemic. I was like innovating teaching methods, yep,

764
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 3: to put classes online.

765
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 2: Right, So the whole darn thing is on video. And

766
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 2: this is why I felt so calm. I was like, yeah, yeah,

767
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 2: I'm good. Let's walk it out. Yeah yeah, let's wow.

768
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:41,439
Speaker 2: You know threatened me with a good time.

769
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 3: Let's let's let's have let's let's do this then, And

770
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:46,879
Speaker 3: so I send the video link to the Title nine.

771
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 3: They have it on tape. They have the whole class

772
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 3: on tape. Wow, it absolutely didn't happen. I never said

773
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 3: anything to her. She's completely delusional and weaponizing a system.

774
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 3: Title nine, what happened to the girl? Yeah? So Title

775
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 3: nine office calls me. They say, well, we looked into this.

776
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 3: We interviewed the girl, Melissa was her name, and they said,

777
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 3: and after forty five minutes, we're pretty convinced that you

778
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 3: didn't do what she said. You did pretty convinced. Yeah,

779
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,399
Speaker 3: And I'm like, forty it took you forty five minutes?

780
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:20,760
Speaker 3: They said, well, we asked her in every way we knew,

781
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 3: just to make sure. I'm like, hold on here, I

782
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 3: reported it as a victim. You turn this thing against

783
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 3: me anyways, that's right, and they did, of course, Thank

784
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 3: heavens for that video recording.

785
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 1: I don't know why anybody that's in any position where

786
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 1: they they have an exchange of what do they call

787
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:45,439
Speaker 1: it when it's a it's a there's a natural imbalance

788
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: of power or whatever they call it.

789
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 2: There's a technical term from it. I can't think of

790
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 2: it right now.

791
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: But anything where the power disbursement is profound, right, mostly

792
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 1: teacher to student, right, that's where it's the manage or

793
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 1: boss to junior employee.

794
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 2: Right.

795
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: That type of malfeasance or what is it, it's we

796
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 1: call it in the military if an officer is manipulating

797
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 1: a junior soldier, sailor airman, marine. I forget what it

798
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 1: was called. I'm just brain dead right now. Sorry, But

799
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 1: but that reality, right, is that power distribution and then

800
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 1: all of a sudden they know that they people get that,

801
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 1: and so you're experiencing what year is that, twenty fifteen approximately?

802
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's like you're seeing it.

803
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: And my point of all this, and I know the

804
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: audience if you're if you're going, where the hell's rutt going?

805
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: And I do have a tendency to go down rabbitle

806
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: I'm laying a predicate so that you understand that Rick

807
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 1: just did not wake up one day and say, you

808
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 1: know what, to hell with all this, I'm sick of it.

809
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 1: I'm going to fight back against nothing. This wasn't a mission, no,

810
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: no at all. This was a build up and the

811
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: tolerance that you've had of it and trying to pursue

812
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 1: your dream of being the best professor, coach, teacher you

813
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 1: could be has has really been the predominant idea and

814
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,720
Speaker 1: in the in the idea you think within this world

815
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: of academia, is that that type of initiative, that type

816
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 1: of integrity, that type of of what is it? It's calibration, right,

817
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 1: because at any minute we can deviate.

818
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:35,399
Speaker 3: I mean that what was happening at that time too,

819
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 3: there was a there was a fake rape cases emerging

820
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 3: at University of Virginia with Jackie Cokeley. Oh my gosh,

821
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 3: that was happening at the same time culture was starting

822
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 3: to do me lacrosse. That was when I was in

823
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 3: So that was happening in that earlier era. So you

824
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 3: see these steps and it's growing and growing. But every

825
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 3: single one of these things are generally found out to

826
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 3: be a fraud, but we don't change course. They keep

827
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:01,439
Speaker 3: being allowed to happen. And then so to you answer

828
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:02,799
Speaker 3: your question, what did they do to her? So they

829
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 3: they're telling me on the phone, they're like, well, Fin,

830
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 3: she admitted she made it up.

831
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, I know.

832
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 3: And they're like, she's crying, she's really sorry about it.

833
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 3: I'm like boohoo. They're like, do you think you can

834
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 3: let her back in class? I think no, No, I

835
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 3: can't be subjected to that professional risk, like absolutely flipping.

836
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 1: Not.

837
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 3: Well, there's another guy who teaches the class. Do you

838
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 3: think he could she could just attend his lectures.

839
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:27,359
Speaker 2: Nope.

840
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,879
Speaker 3: We teach in different ways, different chapters, different Absolutely, they

841
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 3: did everything they could organizationally to who they now have

842
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 3: proven is a victim.

843
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 1: Me.

844
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 3: I was victim by false allegations and the threat of

845
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:46,320
Speaker 3: weaponization A title nine at grave professional harm they've established,

846
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 3: and I have a I literally I had. They they

847
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 3: were so reluctant, but they had to send me a

848
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 3: letter acknowledging that I was victimized. Wow, and I saved it.

849
00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 3: Of course, they did everything they could someone who they

850
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 3: had to acknowledge was wronged to force her back into

851
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 3: my class and make me continue to be subjected to that,

852
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 3: and I just I wouldn't have it. Absolutely not right.

853
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 3: And so you start to see those things happening. So

854
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 3: when when we like you were getting at like, what

855
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 3: are the implications that why is the problem these these

856
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 3: d I things, It's because it gives absolute gasoline to

857
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 3: that fire and it empowers the administrative and the policy

858
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:38,720
Speaker 3: based weaponization in that respect against people who are oftentimes innocent,

859
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 3: and you know that is that is a problem. So

860
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 3: when you your first question you asked me is like,

861
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 3: why did I think that was wrong? Well, Di, I

862
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:47,720
Speaker 3: is wrong for some of the reasons that we've talked about,

863
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:50,280
Speaker 3: and I don't think it's good to discriminate upon anybody.

864
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,399
Speaker 3: Another reason I knew it was wrong was because when

865
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,240
Speaker 3: the President came in and told us this, he acknowledged

866
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 3: it was wrong. He said, I don't want to get caught.

867
00:47:58,040 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 3: I don't want to see ourselves in court. I don't

868
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 3: want to have this stuff uses evidence. Let's just change

869
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 3: the words, don't. It really does put a target on

870
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 3: our back, but let's make sure that we don't do it.

871
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,319
Speaker 3: We're going to try to compensate by building out uh

872
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 3: a new degree program with the US Space Force at

873
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 3: Patrick Space Force based up by US, so that we

874
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 3: can you know, and I'm thinking to myself of my

875
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 3: hold on, so we're going to hide this from the

876
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,879
Speaker 3: Space Force. We're gonna indoctrinate their guardians on the GI

877
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 3: bill and Pentagon funding to indoctrinate warriors. Wow, no, it

878
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 3: so so he's telling us that he doesn't want to.

879
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:31,439
Speaker 3: He said, I want to fight back. So when when

880
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 3: people are telling you this is what we're told, but

881
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,280
Speaker 3: we can't we shouldn't do these things to get caught

882
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 3: doing what we shouldn't get caught doing, like right off

883
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 3: the bat, that that puts you in a really tough

884
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 3: position ethically, And so that's a second second layer to

885
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 3: your quick answer. It is like how do I know?

886
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 3: Why did I how or why did I know what

887
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 3: was wrong? It's like he basically told us it was wrong.

888
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 3: That's right, knew.

889
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 1: Admission is a is a concrete reality, and so that's

890
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 1: that's a tough boat to sail in.

891
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 3: And then you know, third, like at a policy level,

892
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 3: it's like there's lots of policies we follow all the time.

893
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 3: I'm sure there are policies in the military. You've followen

894
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 3: in life. There's speeding limits that we think we should

895
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 3: be able fast run road.

896
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 2: That's you know what we do. We generally follow them.

897
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 3: Like there's there's ways to challenge policies, and and like

898
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 3: even if I was pro DEI and all that, like

899
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 3: there's a way to challenge it, which is to sue

900
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 3: the Trump administration, or to fight back in a proper fashion,

901
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 3: not to defraud people who paid tax money to have

902
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:44,439
Speaker 3: money go towards grants to do A, and you're gonna

903
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 3: misappropriate it to do B.

904
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 2: That's A. That's a whole other problem.

905
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 3: And and that's actually what was pitched to us in

906
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 3: the meeting that happened beforehand. We were told this story

907
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 3: of which then he came and told us in person,

908
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 3: and we said, well, if you're gonna be our boss,

909
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 3: and you're gonna tell us our written policy blasted out

910
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 3: to the university, it says we can't do this, but

911
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 3: you're gonna tell us, Hey, make sure you do it right. Well,

912
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,359
Speaker 3: you're setting me up as the fall guy first get

913
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 3: in trouble. So I said in the meeting, I said,

914
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 3: can he put that a writing or come. He needs

915
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 3: to come, and we need to hear that from the

916
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,280
Speaker 3: horse's mouth. I'm not going to get that through telephone.

917
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 2: Game.

918
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 3: He said it was okay for you to do this,

919
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 3: So he came to the meeting and he said, yeah,

920
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 3: we want you totally undermine this effectively. And he lied

921
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 3: and then he then he put out statements when James o'

922
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 3: keif caught him. He lied about the lies. He said

923
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 3: those things weren't true. They absolutely get out of context.

924
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:40,239
Speaker 3: I absolutely so. At the time, I hadn't been coome

925
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 3: public as the whistleblower. They all knew it was me

926
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 3: because of the way that the camera was angled, and

927
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 3: they all knew, but I hadn't come public. There's no

928
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,799
Speaker 3: They thought probably they could get away with the lie.

929
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,240
Speaker 3: And but I'm a witness.

930
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 2: I was there.

931
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 3: It was absolutely the context right.

932
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 2: There was no mistaking it. Absolutely not.

933
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 3: And so James only had a chance to publish a

934
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 3: few things I've published all over Twitter and my substecs

935
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 3: now a bunch of additional videos, Yeah, including the one

936
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 3: I even just refer to here where he's like, we're

937
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 3: going to compensate by essentially getting some money from the

938
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 3: Space Force and you know, getting DoD money for to

939
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 3: fill the the There's a whole lot more to unpack

940
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 3: on that story. And so you know three levels of

941
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 3: which is wrong wrong at a principal level of what

942
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 3: the thing is. Two is wrong because they told you

943
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 3: it's wrong. Three it's wrong because it's we still have

944
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 3: to follow some policies, and there's a way to challenge that,

945
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 3: and it's not by actively undermining it. And if you

946
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 3: are going to actively undermine it, don't hold a meeting

947
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 3: and tell everybody to do it.

948
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 2: Right, Like, So that's there's something you said too.

949
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 3: Like all of us, obviously, we are governed by laws

950
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 3: and rules. We don't live in the anarchy, state of

951
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:54,720
Speaker 3: nature chaos. You've you've had to see what that looks

952
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 3: like in real battle in third world countries where there

953
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 3: is the state of nature and anarchy, and that's order matters,

954
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 3: rules and laws matter. But like you know, like I'm

955
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 3: perfectly comfortable in the gray. The gray is life, right,

956
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 3: you know. I black and white matters on some things

957
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 3: for sure. But at the same time, like you know,

958
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:17,759
Speaker 3: like when we teach our children, like they're going to

959
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 3: be disappointed when they go to the world and they

960
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 3: think everything is black and white, because we That's where

961
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:23,320
Speaker 3: I'm at right now. We have to live in the

962
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:26,760
Speaker 3: gray because life is great. There's textures nuanced, there are complications,

963
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 3: there are you know, like I'm perfectly comfortable operating in

964
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:33,919
Speaker 3: the gray. I mean I basically did an undercover video,

965
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 3: so the but again, there.

966
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 1: Are well, your whole existence has been to understand the

967
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:43,840
Speaker 1: gray and how we process the gray, I mean, the

968
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,879
Speaker 1: gray matter in between our ears. Thank you for acknowledging

969
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 1: that little punt there. I appreciate that. I think for

970
00:52:54,040 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 1: me the hardest aspect of teaching that gray area to

971
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 1: people in particular, people that you care about, people you're

972
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 1: trying to influence, people you're coaching. You know, I deal

973
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:12,439
Speaker 1: with it a lot with athletes, right, you know, you're

974
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 1: not as good as you think you are, and you've

975
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 1: got a lot more to go. Uh, and these are

976
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,240
Speaker 1: the places you need to go, and you're not gonna

977
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 1: get there unless you do these places, these things. But

978
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 1: there's something that takes place within particular people that they

979
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 1: either generate an illusion that they don't require those particulars

980
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 1: and they can somehow jump ahead, or they continuously, you know,

981
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 1: mislead themselves, or they create this as you know, this

982
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: delusional construct of their own reality that that it's and

983
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,320
Speaker 1: the more they reinforce it, the further away it gets.

984
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 1: And that's what this seems like what's happened, right, This

985
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 1: has gotten so far away from what the reality of

986
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 1: what it is. Hey, we know these programs are actually

987
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:08,759
Speaker 1: they're divisive, they're they're racist in nature, they're picking one

988
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 1: class of people over another. They're using the context of

989
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 1: social justice or oppression or colonialism or whatever you construct

990
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 1: of oppression that they're they're they're manipulating. And then and

991
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 1: then what happens is the managerial class that supports it

992
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 1: ends up reinforcing it because dollars get connected to it.

993
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 1: And you said it yourself, sixty nine million dollars were

994
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 1: affiliated with grants that had been already put in place

995
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 1: from the US federal government. Now multiply that times every university.

996
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 1: I mean, the most famous one right now is Harvard.

997
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:51,279
Speaker 1: Right you look at Harvard's, you know, the Harvard Fund,

998
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 1: which is essentially a private equity fund that's masquerading as

999
00:54:55,880 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 1: a college right now, and you know, the Trump comes

1000
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:03,399
Speaker 1: in and says, you know what, You're not getting nine

1001
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,800
Speaker 1: billion dollars or seven billion dollars in any more grants,

1002
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 1: which essentially, you know, stops the capital intake to go

1003
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,360
Speaker 1: out invest in people like you, to do the research,

1004
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 1: to flip it, and to build the fund, because you're

1005
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 1: selling it to the companies that are all sitting there

1006
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 1: salivating over the research. So you're manipulating from the endpoint

1007
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 1: of who's going to get to do the research and

1008
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 1: why right, based on you know, classifications that aren't meritocracy

1009
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 1: are based in meritocracy. Then you're manipulating the outcomes in

1010
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 1: many cases of the research that's emerging. Then you're you're

1011
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 1: pilfering the intellectual property to fit it to the people

1012
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 1: that are going to play this corrupt game, and so

1013
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 1: the whole system becomes corrupt from that first initial like

1014
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 1: movement into the gray area.

1015
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 3: Man, you're barking the right tree for me on this.

1016
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 3: I think a lot about this, I bet you. I

1017
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:11,560
Speaker 3: think you think a lot about everything. Yeah, sometimes that's

1018
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 3: the problem.

1019
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean from the first moment we started chatting,

1020
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 1: it's like, whoa, this is one of the most complicated

1021
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 1: human beings I've ever met. Not in a bad way either, Like, like, man,

1022
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 1: you're you. I don't think you. I mean when you

1023
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 1: say you live in the gray it's like you know

1024
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 1: every shade that's possibly conceivable, right, Yeah, and you spend

1025
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 1: time analyzing each angle. I spend time losing a lot

1026
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 1: of wrestling matches.

1027
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 3: I mean, in all seriousness, Like, I know, you do

1028
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 3: a lot of coaching and mentoring of people and kids, Like,

1029
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 3: don't don't be like me at that. Like sometimes when

1030
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 3: you the athletes when I coach, like yeah, it's like

1031
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:50,760
Speaker 3: you got to turn off and go right.

1032
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:51,680
Speaker 2: Sometimes like it.

1033
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 3: But anyways, let's wrap let's wrap this up because I

1034
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:58,000
Speaker 3: want to go to that because that's the thing that

1035
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 3: the institution has lost stout on. Well, yeah, and so

1036
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 3: if in you and so you know what you were

1037
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 3: talking about there when you talk about the losses or

1038
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 3: you know, it made me think of a couple of

1039
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 3: different things. The impact of those discriminatory practices, what not.

1040
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 3: The five hundred million dollars that Trump has fined Harvard

1041
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 3: for and these kind of things. I think that's great.

1042
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 3: I celebrate them, and I thank them for taking such

1043
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 3: an important symbolic step. But Harvard's not going to lose

1044
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 3: sleep over five hundred million dollars based on at least

1045
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 3: based on my knowledge of their endowment.

1046
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 2: Right.

1047
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 3: However, what has to be done and what has not

1048
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 3: been done, is doing what we said earlier, taking this

1049
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 3: to the smaller time places, for all the small time

1050
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 3: people who are actually the voters who put them in

1051
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:50,920
Speaker 3: to do these things and the people who are actually suffering.

1052
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure most of their voters aren't coming from

1053
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:58,440
Speaker 3: Harvard and Columbia, so it's an absolutely indispensable, necessary, symbolic

1054
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 3: thing that has to be done at a policy level. However,

1055
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 3: I would say that how this has, how this kind

1056
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 3: of like sloth a of a discrimination beast has allowed

1057
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:13,840
Speaker 3: to emerge in this story we've woven now from two

1058
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:17,040
Speaker 3: thousand and twenty twenty five, has been a lack of

1059
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:22,880
Speaker 3: accountability because of weakness to impose accountability from leadership, middle managers,

1060
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:27,400
Speaker 3: higher managers. And I think it it crosses into those

1061
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:33,000
Speaker 3: gray areas of whether you call it theology or spiritual elements,

1062
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 3: like there is a week like we have to be

1063
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 3: strong as leaders, as just as followers, as people to

1064
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 3: do the right thing and to hold accountable. So for instance,

1065
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 3: it's like we talked about that sixty nine million dollars.

1066
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:47,360
Speaker 3: I didn't pull that number out of my hat. That's

1067
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 3: what I read up. My university published in their newspaper

1068
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 3: that they know that they are at risk of losing

1069
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:57,360
Speaker 3: but you know what, they're not losing sleep because you know,

1070
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 3: nobody is having the backbone culturally and administratively in the government.

1071
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:03,960
Speaker 3: Nobody's taking that money away from them. No, nobody ever

1072
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:07,480
Speaker 3: does that Like it's like they say it, but it

1073
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:10,920
Speaker 3: never happens. Yes, so you know there's a level of

1074
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:15,160
Speaker 3: weakness of holding accountable.

1075
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 1: Well that's you know, don't have don't send me down that.

1076
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:22,960
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's astonishing, it's astonishing, and.

1077
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:23,840
Speaker 2: It goes back.

1078
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe you can enlighten us on that, Like where

1079
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 1: does that moral relativism initiate? Right, because that's what it is, right, Yeah,

1080
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 1: you get exposed at so you growing up, you know

1081
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,760
Speaker 1: the way you did, it would make sense that you

1082
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:48,480
Speaker 1: have a moral flexibility, But as you've matured, you've only

1083
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:55,160
Speaker 1: refined that moral integrity more and more and more after

1084
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 1: each one of the situations that you've experienced at all

1085
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 1: these different levels.

1086
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I would say it's like there's a dichotomy

1087
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:05,320
Speaker 3: in that, Like there's a moral flexibility, but there's also

1088
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:08,560
Speaker 3: like a moral inflexibility. As you learn right and wrong right,

1089
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:12,440
Speaker 3: right and wrong gets solidified is right and wrong, you

1090
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:17,440
Speaker 3: learn how to be flexible in the spots that are ambiguous. Right,

1091
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 3: So like ambiguity is fine, Like adults have to deal

1092
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:22,920
Speaker 3: with ambiguity. Like I think that's what discernment is. We

1093
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:25,120
Speaker 3: maybe we can come back to discernment later because that

1094
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:27,920
Speaker 3: at the spiritual level. You you know, young young men,

1095
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:30,440
Speaker 3: young young women, they need to be able to discern

1096
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 3: what is my path? What is what is God's word

1097
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 3: showing me and telling me. That's a difficult thing to

1098
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:40,320
Speaker 3: wrestle with until you're too old. And now now we

1099
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:43,000
Speaker 3: can look back, so we have that texture and season.

1100
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 3: But that is what discernment is. The gray black and

1101
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:49,520
Speaker 3: white becomes easier to see. But you know, I faced

1102
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 3: a lot of adversity growing up, like I've I've seen

1103
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:57,480
Speaker 3: I've seen my mom arrested for wrongfully. I've I've wrestled

1104
01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:00,600
Speaker 3: with some really bad corruption and bad things that I

1105
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 3: saw and abuses happening to us as kids and to

1106
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:07,840
Speaker 3: other kids, where you become crystallized in understanding what right

1107
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 3: and wrong is. And at that point, and I imagine

1108
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 3: combat does the same to you guys in certain respects. Right,

1109
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:17,240
Speaker 3: you learn how to be morally flexible because there's a

1110
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:18,120
Speaker 3: necessity to that.

1111
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 4: Right.

1112
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 3: But when you see things, and when you see certain things,

1113
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 3: you're like okay, like like you don't care what the losses.

1114
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:29,920
Speaker 3: It's like demote me, like I don't care about my

1115
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 3: rank type of thing. Yeah, like there are times where

1116
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 3: what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong, and

1117
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 3: when you've already paid that price, and watch what other

1118
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 3: people do. I suppose other people look at it differently,

1119
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:43,560
Speaker 3: but I don't. And you know, I had a quip

1120
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:47,000
Speaker 3: from a friend of mine laughing with me not too

1121
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:49,400
Speaker 3: long ago. He's like, they really kind of pulled you

1122
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:52,880
Speaker 3: out of hiding and made you go public with this

1123
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:55,840
Speaker 3: by the especially the barb of Striss. In effect, they

1124
01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:57,640
Speaker 3: tried to buy you off for one hundred thousand dollars

1125
01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 3: to silence me with a nda a non disparagement and

1126
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:04,080
Speaker 3: promise never to sue them. I wasn't suing them, and

1127
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 3: I wasn't talking about it, and I wasn't just I

1128
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 3: was doing nothing, and instead they woke a sleeping giant.

1129
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 3: He's like, anyways, what he quipped, He's like, this is

1130
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:15,040
Speaker 3: like like they should have told the National Guard not

1131
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:19,160
Speaker 3: to go after rambounded person because you know the person,

1132
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 3: let him go, you'll pick him up, you'll let him go,

1133
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:25,680
Speaker 3: you'll pick him up, and the next.

1134
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 2: Town and everything is just fine.

1135
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 3: That's right, and but but when you make these crystallized

1136
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,560
Speaker 3: moments of right and wrong with people who've had to

1137
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:36,720
Speaker 3: suffer the back.

1138
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:38,720
Speaker 2: Ends of what is right and what's wrong.

1139
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:42,280
Speaker 1: Well, that's the question, then, I mean, that's the question,

1140
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:45,800
Speaker 1: and not to to pivot on the the most intense

1141
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:50,840
Speaker 1: philosophical question that there is is other than like figuring

1142
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:53,200
Speaker 1: out who am I and why am I here? But

1143
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:57,240
Speaker 1: like what is the difference between right and wrong? And

1144
01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:00,280
Speaker 1: how does that manifit? Or crystallize? I love of how

1145
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:04,560
Speaker 1: you use the word crystallized to where it's it's it's

1146
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:09,520
Speaker 1: discernible every day. Right. For me, there was a long

1147
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:12,680
Speaker 1: stretch where I didn't know what that was, and I

1148
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 1: gave myself the wide range of interpretation right, and then

1149
01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 1: and then after you know, an experience I had in

1150
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:29,840
Speaker 1: Afghanistan me and that I was really in question of it.

1151
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 1: And then I'm like, well, I don't know even where

1152
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:35,280
Speaker 1: to begin to generate the foundation.

1153
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:35,520
Speaker 3: Now.

1154
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:39,880
Speaker 1: Luckily for me, I chose religion. I chose Christianity. I

1155
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:43,680
Speaker 1: chose christ right. And so that began this ten year

1156
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:50,040
Speaker 1: long exploration of what that looks like. Can I live

1157
01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:53,080
Speaker 1: up to that? Can I hold the standard of it?

1158
01:03:53,680 --> 01:03:57,320
Speaker 1: And then can it be iterable in my behavior day

1159
01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 1: in and day out? And you know, through God's that

1160
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:05,040
Speaker 1: relationship and that confidence that came out of that, you know,

1161
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:08,600
Speaker 1: in setting that corner stone right, I was able to

1162
01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:10,640
Speaker 1: get there, but it took a long time.

1163
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:13,200
Speaker 3: It sounds that I was thinking about this analogy driving

1164
01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:15,120
Speaker 3: down here, because I know you have a military background,

1165
01:04:15,160 --> 01:04:18,760
Speaker 3: and to me, it's not It tracks with learning how

1166
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:21,440
Speaker 3: to shoot in the respect of like if you've never

1167
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:24,520
Speaker 3: shot before, you go down on on arrange to a target,

1168
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:28,120
Speaker 3: you know, like you know, like like you're you don't

1169
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 3: know how to control your breath, you don't know how

1170
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 3: to control like, there are so many things you don't

1171
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:35,280
Speaker 3: know right, So you're you're aiming for the mark of

1172
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 3: what's right and wrong, like you're trying to find that,

1173
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:41,400
Speaker 3: but like you don't really have that guidance and so

1174
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:43,360
Speaker 3: you can figure it out by practice. I'm sure there's

1175
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:47,000
Speaker 3: some self made sharpshooters out there, and you know, you

1176
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:48,200
Speaker 3: don't want to be on the back end of them

1177
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:49,720
Speaker 3: in a mountain like Great.

1178
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:53,919
Speaker 1: Lucas, the guy that was the YouTube gun guy who

1179
01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:57,560
Speaker 1: just lost his his deal with the one Armament got

1180
01:04:57,560 --> 01:05:00,760
Speaker 1: t Rex Arms or whatever. That guy, like he takes

1181
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:04,200
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of crap from operators out there.

1182
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:06,560
Speaker 1: But that kid can shoot, and he's self taught, and

1183
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:08,680
Speaker 1: he got better and better and better and better.

1184
01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:11,120
Speaker 3: And so I love the analogy. And it's a caliber

1185
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:12,440
Speaker 3: you calibrate through trial and error.

1186
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:13,280
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.

1187
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:15,800
Speaker 3: But what I'm getting at is that that's probably it's

1188
01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:18,080
Speaker 3: not an effective way that you guys trained people in

1189
01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:22,680
Speaker 3: the military and from regular infantry to special forces in

1190
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:25,600
Speaker 3: special operations and what you guys do. The better way

1191
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:28,600
Speaker 3: to sort of speak to help guide someone to know

1192
01:05:28,640 --> 01:05:31,600
Speaker 3: what is right and wrong. We hit the bullseye right right.

1193
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:34,680
Speaker 3: Sticking with the analogy is to have guidance, to have

1194
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 3: a teacher, have a mentor, have have peer mentors, go

1195
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:41,600
Speaker 3: through have guidance, maybe a book how to shoot? How

1196
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:44,400
Speaker 3: do you right now? You codified these principles that you've

1197
01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:46,840
Speaker 3: learned through your trial and error and you and so

1198
01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:49,040
Speaker 3: it turns out and when it comes to right and wrong,

1199
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:49,920
Speaker 3: there's a book.

1200
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:52,760
Speaker 1: A very very a book that's been around a long

1201
01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 1: time and for a reason. Yeah, I mean I think

1202
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:58,000
Speaker 1: the thing one of the there were two they were

1203
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 1: like there was I read the the Least Strobull book

1204
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:05,560
Speaker 1: when I was really in struggling with whether or not

1205
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:07,000
Speaker 1: I could do it or not. It was like two

1206
01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:09,560
Speaker 1: thousand and six and I read the case for christ

1207
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:12,280
Speaker 1: and I love you know, he's a classically trained lawyer.

1208
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 1: He's an investigative journalist. Yeah, my dad was a lawyer.

1209
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 1: So you know, I love the idea of journalism. I

1210
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:21,800
Speaker 1: love the idea of seeking out the truth of something.

1211
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:24,160
Speaker 1: And and so that all made sense, and so like

1212
01:06:24,200 --> 01:06:28,560
Speaker 1: it put it in the framework that I could rationalize

1213
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:31,760
Speaker 1: the magnitude of the miracle. I could say, all right,

1214
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:35,840
Speaker 1: this guy believes it's true. But then like, all right, now,

1215
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:39,120
Speaker 1: what do you do? And since then it's become the

1216
01:06:39,160 --> 01:06:42,520
Speaker 1: shroud of turn right, that one, you know, that one

1217
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:45,480
Speaker 1: just blew me away. I mean that one, the guy

1218
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:47,520
Speaker 1: that was just recently Untucker Carlson.

1219
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 2: I mean I was.

1220
01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:51,400
Speaker 1: I was a devout, like I'm a devout believer, but

1221
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:54,800
Speaker 1: that solidified it in a way I could never even imagine. Right,

1222
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:58,000
Speaker 1: and that's science, right, And then and then there was

1223
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:03,320
Speaker 1: for me, it really was a out the stories of

1224
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 1: the apostles. If regular men could allow the message to

1225
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:15,439
Speaker 1: penetrate their perception of the world they live in, which

1226
01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:20,920
Speaker 1: was a harsh, harsh, brutal world. I mean, under Roman rule,

1227
01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:24,520
Speaker 1: you know, the whole thing, and then to fight against

1228
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:30,520
Speaker 1: you know this everybody who wanted this idea, this miracle

1229
01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:34,800
Speaker 1: to die right, you know, to to endeavor that and

1230
01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:37,040
Speaker 1: to you know, to walk the corners of the earth

1231
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:40,160
Speaker 1: and be crucified and upside down and rip the part

1232
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:40,480
Speaker 1: and all.

1233
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:40,800
Speaker 3: Mark.

1234
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:44,040
Speaker 1: You know, it's like if those regular dudes like me

1235
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:49,080
Speaker 1: can do it and become apostolic in their nature, right,

1236
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:51,000
Speaker 1: And I think that's what it is. It's the battle

1237
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 1: of nature and our are our? What is it o our?

1238
01:07:57,280 --> 01:07:58,320
Speaker 1: The miracle faith?

1239
01:07:58,440 --> 01:07:58,600
Speaker 4: Right?

1240
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:02,320
Speaker 1: When you mix those to create that foundation, now all

1241
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:05,280
Speaker 1: of a sudden you have a framework to work with.

1242
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:08,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's interesting that you mentioned that. It gives

1243
01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:11,280
Speaker 3: me so many different things to think about that I

1244
01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:14,960
Speaker 3: wanted to say, But like that all the testimony of

1245
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:18,360
Speaker 3: the martyrs, I mean, that's that's I'm Catholic. That's kind

1246
01:08:18,360 --> 01:08:25,360
Speaker 3: of the language that we use about the the the belief. Right,

1247
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:28,400
Speaker 3: how do we know it's true? So like a couple

1248
01:08:28,439 --> 01:08:32,280
Speaker 3: of possibilities. One, they're all liars, they just made it

1249
01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:39,000
Speaker 3: up for whatever reason. Two mass illusional effect scenario. Three

1250
01:08:39,160 --> 01:08:41,760
Speaker 3: it's true. And and so you know there's been lots

1251
01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:44,080
Speaker 3: of people who've kind of walked through those options and

1252
01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:45,479
Speaker 3: ruling out the first two things.

1253
01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:47,360
Speaker 1: Can you expound on the second one that you said

1254
01:08:47,400 --> 01:08:51,599
Speaker 1: mass mass delusional sort of experience, like doctor Robert Malone

1255
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 1: talked about mass formation psychosis as a result of COVID.

1256
01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:57,519
Speaker 1: So can you just break that out a little bit

1257
01:08:57,520 --> 01:09:00,320
Speaker 1: and how you understand it? So, because I think what

1258
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:02,200
Speaker 1: a lot of and I don't mean to cut you off,

1259
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:04,720
Speaker 1: I have a neuroscientist in front of me. So it's

1260
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:07,600
Speaker 1: like a dream come true, by the way, So for

1261
01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:10,080
Speaker 1: people that don't get that, because I think there's a

1262
01:09:10,120 --> 01:09:12,960
Speaker 1: lot of that taking place, can you explain that?

1263
01:09:13,439 --> 01:09:13,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, so.

1264
01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:21,040
Speaker 3: In the respect of the theological example, So the idea

1265
01:09:21,080 --> 01:09:23,400
Speaker 3: is that you can have a bunch of people kind

1266
01:09:23,400 --> 01:09:28,040
Speaker 3: of engaged in uh, sort of a group level hallucination

1267
01:09:28,400 --> 01:09:29,960
Speaker 3: of something.

1268
01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:38,040
Speaker 1: The upcoming alien invasion. Well, I'm sorry, I gotta talking.

1269
01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:43,280
Speaker 3: There's there's actually you know, people have written about social contagion. Yes,

1270
01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:47,479
Speaker 3: of things that we now see may manifest and well

1271
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:51,760
Speaker 3: trnifestos and and and mass you know, I.

1272
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 2: Just reported on it yesterday. I went on Playing book

1273
01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:55,320
Speaker 2: show and talked about it.

1274
01:09:55,479 --> 01:10:00,800
Speaker 3: There's obviously the tragedy that was absolutely awful, And you know,

1275
01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:07,320
Speaker 3: how are people becoming deluded with the notion that they're

1276
01:10:07,360 --> 01:10:10,400
Speaker 3: trans and and part of that is social contagion. This

1277
01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:13,640
Speaker 3: just kind of gets to that like mass level hysteria

1278
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:19,120
Speaker 3: or hallucination that social media has facilitated in a whole

1279
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:20,960
Speaker 3: new way because they don't all need to be people

1280
01:10:20,960 --> 01:10:23,240
Speaker 3: in the same place any longer, which historically that's kind

1281
01:10:23,240 --> 01:10:26,120
Speaker 3: of what it was alluding to with the original followers

1282
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:28,240
Speaker 3: of Christ, which is like this is some sort of

1283
01:10:28,280 --> 01:10:33,040
Speaker 3: like group level hallucination, which you know, we can use

1284
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:35,040
Speaker 3: hallucination in lots of ways. You could say an illusion

1285
01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:37,040
Speaker 3: likes lots of people can be looking at the same

1286
01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:40,519
Speaker 3: thing and still mistake it, and that that there's a

1287
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:42,840
Speaker 3: normalcy to that. That's not a clinical level of a

1288
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:45,600
Speaker 3: hallucination like in schizophrenia or anything. But the idea is

1289
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:47,599
Speaker 3: that you can still have a big group of people

1290
01:10:47,800 --> 01:10:52,120
Speaker 3: misunderstand something in an innocent way that's not the lying way.

1291
01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:55,400
Speaker 3: So you have your three options, Like these apostles and

1292
01:10:55,439 --> 01:10:59,400
Speaker 3: the followers and disciples, they they're just lying. They made

1293
01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:06,680
Speaker 3: it right. Two, there was a group level innocent, not

1294
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:13,200
Speaker 3: malintented misrepresentation of an illusory experience. The sermon on amount

1295
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:16,839
Speaker 3: feeding five thousand, Well, those aren't mortals. Those things probably

1296
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:21,240
Speaker 3: I don't. I think we probably even atheists historically say

1297
01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:24,439
Speaker 3: those things happened. A guy went on a mount and gave.

1298
01:11:24,280 --> 01:11:26,479
Speaker 2: It a lecture. Yeah. Yeah.

1299
01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:29,719
Speaker 3: The issue is did he resurrect, did he bring Lazarus

1300
01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:32,320
Speaker 3: back from the day, did he create the fish and

1301
01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:39,599
Speaker 3: loaves miracles like the miraculous elements, or they're telling the truth.

1302
01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:42,800
Speaker 3: And so what you were saying this the testimony of

1303
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:45,600
Speaker 3: the martyrs of you know, one of the things that

1304
01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:47,000
Speaker 3: made me think about when you were saying that. A

1305
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:49,839
Speaker 3: good analogy, and like I think a military context is actually,

1306
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:55,120
Speaker 3: you guys do sear right's search escape right like torture.

1307
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:01,360
Speaker 3: Most of at least what I've heard as a civilian

1308
01:12:01,439 --> 01:12:03,640
Speaker 3: right is. One of the mantras and lessons that come

1309
01:12:03,680 --> 01:12:06,960
Speaker 3: out of those things are that nobody's a superman. Everybody

1310
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:07,719
Speaker 3: has a breaking point.

1311
01:12:08,479 --> 01:12:11,000
Speaker 1: I can tell you from you know, I spent two

1312
01:12:11,080 --> 01:12:14,880
Speaker 1: years training case officers, well I should say they spent

1313
01:12:14,920 --> 01:12:17,280
Speaker 1: two years training me. And some of the guys I

1314
01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:22,200
Speaker 1: had access were part of enhanced interrogation rendition programs and

1315
01:12:22,240 --> 01:12:27,200
Speaker 1: these these were the most elite interrogators who've ever lived,

1316
01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:30,640
Speaker 1: in my opinion, and they always would laugh because you know,

1317
01:12:30,680 --> 01:12:32,760
Speaker 1: I'd be like, you'd never break me, bro, and they

1318
01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:37,280
Speaker 1: just like they give me the you know that maniacal

1319
01:12:37,439 --> 01:12:40,120
Speaker 1: laugh and there and they would say, rut, everybody breaks

1320
01:12:41,280 --> 01:12:42,160
Speaker 1: and one of the things.

1321
01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:44,719
Speaker 3: And I actually like that we can weave in different

1322
01:12:45,040 --> 01:12:46,960
Speaker 3: things and stories. I think we both kind of jam

1323
01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:49,920
Speaker 3: on the same vibe for that. But so I did

1324
01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:52,479
Speaker 3: a mission for NASA where I lived in isolation and

1325
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:54,760
Speaker 3: confinement for forty five days in the space capsule as

1326
01:12:54,920 --> 01:12:57,920
Speaker 3: Johnson Space Center, Oh my gosh, and to understand what

1327
01:12:58,080 --> 01:13:01,880
Speaker 3: happens to humans in isola and confinement during high stress,

1328
01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:05,960
Speaker 3: high stress, high pressure situations like long duration spacelight to

1329
01:13:05,960 --> 01:13:08,680
Speaker 3: Mars and back. While you in the distinction rich with

1330
01:13:09,760 --> 01:13:12,479
Speaker 3: being from like maybe the things that you guys have done,

1331
01:13:12,479 --> 01:13:16,760
Speaker 3: you can't just look back and to say that the

1332
01:13:16,800 --> 01:13:19,559
Speaker 3: military records of how do people survive and isolate? So,

1333
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:22,599
Speaker 3: like I talked with Colonel Charlie Plummer, you did four

1334
01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:23,240
Speaker 3: or five one of my.

1335
01:13:23,320 --> 01:13:24,240
Speaker 2: Favorite human beings.

1336
01:13:24,240 --> 01:13:27,719
Speaker 1: We interviewed him on TNQ, probably one of my favorite

1337
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:31,080
Speaker 1: human beings. In his story, his story was a story

1338
01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:31,800
Speaker 1: that changed me.

1339
01:13:32,080 --> 01:13:34,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess I brought I got his book over there. Yeah,

1340
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:37,040
Speaker 3: that's awesome and so, but it's like you can't necessarily

1341
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:37,840
Speaker 3: draw those for.

1342
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:40,400
Speaker 1: Those for those who don't know, Charlie Bum was an aviator,

1343
01:13:40,439 --> 01:13:43,080
Speaker 1: got shut down, was in the Hanoi Hilton for almost

1344
01:13:43,120 --> 01:13:47,879
Speaker 1: six years. Uh Cap Stockdale or Ben became Admiral Stockdale

1345
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:52,759
Speaker 1: tapped him to essentially be like the the the minister

1346
01:13:52,920 --> 01:13:56,920
Speaker 1: or the the morale officer of this group in the

1347
01:13:56,920 --> 01:14:00,400
Speaker 1: Hanoi Hilton. And it's I highly recommend look up Charlie Plum,

1348
01:14:00,520 --> 01:14:02,360
Speaker 1: look up his speeches, his biased book.

1349
01:14:02,600 --> 01:14:03,679
Speaker 2: He is the real deal.

1350
01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:06,360
Speaker 3: Well and for the younger generation, like the Hanoy Hilton

1351
01:14:06,439 --> 01:14:11,680
Speaker 3: was a torture facility. That's absolutely awful torture. They were

1352
01:14:11,800 --> 01:14:14,960
Speaker 3: tortured for years and years and years, unspeakable things. And

1353
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:18,840
Speaker 3: when he came home his wife was remarried. Like talk

1354
01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:22,519
Speaker 3: about a secondary level of breaking and harp torture. Like

1355
01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:26,280
Speaker 3: and the man has nothing but a impossible to break

1356
01:14:26,320 --> 01:14:28,439
Speaker 3: positive attitude that I can barely even comprehend.

1357
01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:29,480
Speaker 2: He's so inspiring.

1358
01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:35,800
Speaker 3: So like when you know, so on the on the

1359
01:14:35,880 --> 01:14:40,720
Speaker 3: NASA side, we can't look to those examples because you

1360
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:43,080
Speaker 3: have to survive in those situations. You don't have to

1361
01:14:43,160 --> 01:14:46,519
Speaker 3: still land a spaceship. He's just interesting because you still

1362
01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:47,280
Speaker 3: have to be an operator.

1363
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:48,759
Speaker 2: Be an operator.

1364
01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:52,240
Speaker 3: So my buddy's a corrections officer in the Trent and

1365
01:14:52,240 --> 01:14:54,040
Speaker 3: penn you with a bunch of mass murderers and like

1366
01:14:54,200 --> 01:14:57,080
Speaker 3: he holds order there, I'm like, you can't. I'm not

1367
01:14:57,120 --> 01:14:59,880
Speaker 3: sitting in a cell reading and doing push ups and

1368
01:15:00,520 --> 01:15:02,920
Speaker 3: for the entire duration, like you were operating, you have

1369
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:06,559
Speaker 3: to land successfully. You have to fly spaceships, maintain the craft.

1370
01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:08,479
Speaker 3: It's like it's like being on a sub or a ship.

1371
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:11,919
Speaker 3: Everything has to maintain ship shape, the water filtration, everything.

1372
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:14,560
Speaker 3: You have to do that while you're in isolation. Confind me,

1373
01:15:14,760 --> 01:15:17,679
Speaker 3: imagine doing that level while and seer at the same time.

1374
01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:20,040
Speaker 3: It's a really difficult thing that we as humans we've

1375
01:15:20,040 --> 01:15:23,120
Speaker 3: almost never had to wrestle with. And and we found

1376
01:15:23,160 --> 01:15:25,280
Speaker 3: that breaking point. It was only forty five day mission.

1377
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:28,080
Speaker 3: Every single person I went in there with with like

1378
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:30,120
Speaker 3: we all and we're lying about it too, like when

1379
01:15:30,160 --> 01:15:31,800
Speaker 3: we like, we're we have to fill out our service,

1380
01:15:31,800 --> 01:15:32,439
Speaker 3: how do you guys do it?

1381
01:15:32,439 --> 01:15:32,519
Speaker 1: Now?

1382
01:15:32,640 --> 01:15:33,080
Speaker 2: Feeling great?

1383
01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:35,920
Speaker 3: One hundred percent Yeah, I am falling asleep on the

1384
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:40,720
Speaker 3: lunar lander and crashing saying I feel great, and like, wow.

1385
01:15:40,920 --> 01:15:43,920
Speaker 1: What about the isolation, because I think this is another

1386
01:15:44,520 --> 01:15:50,800
Speaker 1: main component of that we're seeing in young people performance.

1387
01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:54,479
Speaker 1: There's a there's an isolation kind of emerging, right, what

1388
01:15:54,640 --> 01:15:59,599
Speaker 1: about isolation causes disruption the way we are, we can

1389
01:15:59,600 --> 01:16:02,080
Speaker 1: be optional in our focus.

1390
01:16:02,560 --> 01:16:07,080
Speaker 3: Man, I mean that's it's a deep question with deep

1391
01:16:07,200 --> 01:16:10,240
Speaker 3: answers of layers, right, right, So sometimes, I mean sometimes

1392
01:16:10,240 --> 01:16:13,120
Speaker 3: I like, I'm sure everybody likes to be isolated at times.

1393
01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:14,880
Speaker 2: But especially my wife when I go on the road.

1394
01:16:15,160 --> 01:16:17,639
Speaker 3: But like there's a but after a certain period of time,

1395
01:16:17,960 --> 01:16:21,519
Speaker 3: like the and by the way, she only because I

1396
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:23,439
Speaker 3: never stopped talking to her, that's the job.

1397
01:16:24,360 --> 01:16:25,839
Speaker 2: My wife is similarly afflicted.

1398
01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:29,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, if we could only learn to be quiet more right.

1399
01:16:30,040 --> 01:16:34,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, my best man gave a great wedding speech about

1400
01:16:34,160 --> 01:16:36,360
Speaker 3: how great of a listener my wife is and how

1401
01:16:36,360 --> 01:16:39,600
Speaker 3: it's going to work out. Just really well, that's you

1402
01:16:39,720 --> 01:16:43,200
Speaker 3: and me both, So thank god. You know, when you're

1403
01:16:43,240 --> 01:16:47,120
Speaker 3: isolated in that respect. Some of the challenges psychologically is

1404
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:51,120
Speaker 3: we do we are social creatures, even even the most

1405
01:16:51,120 --> 01:16:58,200
Speaker 3: isolated if people we were require, you know, interactions people

1406
01:16:58,880 --> 01:17:02,280
Speaker 3: sometimes for our just sanity checks for like it's it's

1407
01:17:02,360 --> 01:17:04,880
Speaker 3: nice to have. But then the problem too is you

1408
01:17:04,880 --> 01:17:08,280
Speaker 3: can be isolated with people. So if you're lack of

1409
01:17:08,320 --> 01:17:11,160
Speaker 3: a bit or analogy, at a forward operating base with

1410
01:17:11,240 --> 01:17:12,960
Speaker 3: only five or six of you guys for a six

1411
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:15,840
Speaker 3: month stretch or at a one month stretch, yeah, those

1412
01:17:16,520 --> 01:17:17,800
Speaker 3: your best friends.

1413
01:17:17,479 --> 01:17:18,920
Speaker 2: Get on your nerves. And when I got when I

1414
01:17:18,960 --> 01:17:19,680
Speaker 2: give talks in.

1415
01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:24,200
Speaker 3: Like like like public speaking to things about these missions,

1416
01:17:24,560 --> 01:17:26,559
Speaker 3: I always say, like, look, it's hard to get a

1417
01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:28,360
Speaker 3: family of five to agree on what to order for

1418
01:17:28,360 --> 01:17:30,760
Speaker 3: dinner at the drive through at McDonald's or wherever you're going.

1419
01:17:32,040 --> 01:17:34,720
Speaker 3: The people you love, it's hard to get along with

1420
01:17:34,760 --> 01:17:38,160
Speaker 3: in isolation for even a short period of time. How

1421
01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:40,640
Speaker 3: about not people you love, just co workers for a

1422
01:17:40,680 --> 01:17:44,439
Speaker 3: three year cycle to Mars and back and and it's

1423
01:17:44,439 --> 01:17:49,160
Speaker 3: not on Ernest Shackleton's expedition to the South Hole, where

1424
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:53,760
Speaker 3: you could be at each other's throats if necessary, which

1425
01:17:53,800 --> 01:17:56,920
Speaker 3: is fine, right, Like good teams allow that to happen

1426
01:17:56,960 --> 01:17:57,799
Speaker 3: because it's honest.

1427
01:17:57,800 --> 01:17:59,960
Speaker 2: Police, please get out.

1428
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:02,400
Speaker 3: And so I'm a wrestler, like I like combat, and

1429
01:18:02,520 --> 01:18:10,360
Speaker 3: I had we we fought our best friends every single day,

1430
01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:16,400
Speaker 3: punches neck chokes like and and and and when you're done,

1431
01:18:16,760 --> 01:18:19,360
Speaker 3: like shake hands. You and you love each other and

1432
01:18:19,400 --> 01:18:22,800
Speaker 3: we go out for beers and and your literal roommates.

1433
01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:27,880
Speaker 3: But so I understand that iron sharpening of iron is

1434
01:18:27,920 --> 01:18:32,000
Speaker 3: that being a good loving facet to teamwork, if you're

1435
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:35,679
Speaker 3: holding each other accountable and helping each other to grow

1436
01:18:35,960 --> 01:18:38,360
Speaker 3: and testing each other in the right ways. Right, there's

1437
01:18:38,400 --> 01:18:40,439
Speaker 3: a way that you you badge are too hard, right,

1438
01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:42,960
Speaker 3: and there's toxicity that you need to have a barrier

1439
01:18:43,040 --> 01:18:48,720
Speaker 3: that things can go south on but on shackled and

1440
01:18:48,960 --> 01:18:51,000
Speaker 3: you can come up for air and get that cold

1441
01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:53,600
Speaker 3: air and see the beautiful land. You can't do in

1442
01:18:53,600 --> 01:18:54,120
Speaker 3: the spaceship.

1443
01:18:54,439 --> 01:18:57,160
Speaker 2: There's nothing. It's black, right, it's.

1444
01:18:56,880 --> 01:18:59,800
Speaker 3: Not like like so there's really weird things people don't

1445
01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:02,200
Speaker 3: think about of that kind of a trip that humans

1446
01:19:02,240 --> 01:19:04,200
Speaker 3: have never had to wrestle with. You still have to

1447
01:19:04,200 --> 01:19:06,439
Speaker 3: be an operator and perform. You can't go out and

1448
01:19:06,439 --> 01:19:07,880
Speaker 3: get fresh air. You can't.

1449
01:19:08,240 --> 01:19:09,240
Speaker 2: There's no escape.

1450
01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:11,439
Speaker 3: And I have a friend of mine who's a marriage

1451
01:19:11,439 --> 01:19:14,840
Speaker 3: and family therapist, and I said, what would how would

1452
01:19:14,880 --> 01:19:19,040
Speaker 3: you run your therapy if you couldn't advocate divorce. Sounds

1453
01:19:19,040 --> 01:19:22,200
Speaker 3: weird because she's you think that marriage and family therapists

1454
01:19:22,640 --> 01:19:25,680
Speaker 3: would advocate staying together. But her first response, she's like, no,

1455
01:19:25,720 --> 01:19:29,360
Speaker 3: there's such abusive situations like I have to advocate they separate. Right,

1456
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:31,519
Speaker 3: that's not a solution. How do you solve it?

1457
01:19:31,760 --> 01:19:34,519
Speaker 2: Yeah? How do you? Wow, it's not you can't. Well,

1458
01:19:34,560 --> 01:19:36,760
Speaker 2: you can't because you can't you turn around, you can't.

1459
01:19:36,760 --> 01:19:38,920
Speaker 3: You can't go back, you can't quit, you can't resign,

1460
01:19:38,960 --> 01:19:43,560
Speaker 3: you can't fire the person. Wow, fundamentally different human experience.

1461
01:19:43,760 --> 01:19:44,040
Speaker 2: Yep.

1462
01:19:44,160 --> 01:19:46,680
Speaker 3: And you can kick somebody out of Buds. You can,

1463
01:19:46,720 --> 01:19:48,840
Speaker 3: sure you can. They can quit, and.

1464
01:19:48,760 --> 01:19:53,960
Speaker 1: That actually that actually freeze, freeze up the consciousness of

1465
01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:58,160
Speaker 1: the collective to move forward, to continue pushing, because you

1466
01:19:58,280 --> 01:20:02,120
Speaker 1: know the dead weight is being jettison, right, you use

1467
01:20:02,160 --> 01:20:05,960
Speaker 1: a different strategy, that's right. How how would you how

1468
01:20:06,000 --> 01:20:08,360
Speaker 1: would you survive a mission to Mars? If if you

1469
01:20:08,600 --> 01:20:10,200
Speaker 1: if you, if you had to go with some of

1470
01:20:10,240 --> 01:20:14,920
Speaker 1: the people from the Buds that were dropped, I mean initially,

1471
01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:18,479
Speaker 1: I mean I guess there's there's a sequence first. You

1472
01:20:18,600 --> 01:20:21,679
Speaker 1: have to establish these are the these are the ground rules.

1473
01:20:22,120 --> 01:20:26,000
Speaker 1: If you break the ground rules, here are the consequences, right.

1474
01:20:25,800 --> 01:20:28,559
Speaker 3: But the consequences are limited because you can't things were

1475
01:20:28,640 --> 01:20:31,360
Speaker 3: used to on Earth, you can you can't kick them out, you're.

1476
01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:34,320
Speaker 1: Not getting well no, But I think the consequence I'm

1477
01:20:34,360 --> 01:20:38,240
Speaker 1: talking about is the level of violence that can be applied.

1478
01:20:37,960 --> 01:20:39,800
Speaker 3: Which is also very limited in the space because you

1479
01:20:39,800 --> 01:20:42,240
Speaker 3: don't really well, you're not going to be like bashing

1480
01:20:42,280 --> 01:20:43,760
Speaker 3: people's brains in might.

1481
01:20:44,200 --> 01:20:48,560
Speaker 1: Well, that's the I guess that's the greatest fear of that.

1482
01:20:48,560 --> 01:20:51,160
Speaker 1: That's the because that's the farthest it could degrade. And

1483
01:20:51,160 --> 01:20:53,519
Speaker 1: that's what's a vid of me of violence. That's why

1484
01:20:53,520 --> 01:20:55,679
Speaker 1: we do the missions now. And we're doing these they're fake,

1485
01:20:55,680 --> 01:20:56,400
Speaker 1: they're simulations.

1486
01:20:56,600 --> 01:20:58,560
Speaker 3: I always I have a NASA flight suit, but I

1487
01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:01,000
Speaker 3: always tell people, like especially at I get confused as

1488
01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:03,599
Speaker 3: an astronum, like I'm fake, Like this is a pretend

1489
01:21:03,600 --> 01:21:06,679
Speaker 3: because simulations are really important. It's really like every world

1490
01:21:06,680 --> 01:21:10,160
Speaker 3: a flight simulator. Your rehearsals all the time.

1491
01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:13,639
Speaker 1: That's what the whole gist of being successful at any

1492
01:21:13,720 --> 01:21:15,640
Speaker 1: level and performance is rehearsal.

1493
01:21:15,720 --> 01:21:17,479
Speaker 3: Right, So like that's why we're doing this to make

1494
01:21:17,520 --> 01:21:20,120
Speaker 3: sure that we have a successful mission to go and

1495
01:21:20,160 --> 01:21:21,760
Speaker 3: so all of wish is say, bring it back to

1496
01:21:21,800 --> 01:21:27,759
Speaker 3: the Apostles if they were in Seer and getting tortured

1497
01:21:27,880 --> 01:21:30,200
Speaker 3: or these missions. Because every person has a breaking point

1498
01:21:30,520 --> 01:21:34,559
Speaker 3: except them. They gave the breaking The point was death.

1499
01:21:35,040 --> 01:21:38,400
Speaker 3: They were filayed alive. See Stephen, I think was there's

1500
01:21:38,840 --> 01:21:43,120
Speaker 3: Saint John's boiled and oil. They're crucified. Every single thing

1501
01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:45,760
Speaker 3: that would test them, that would in your world of

1502
01:21:46,240 --> 01:21:51,439
Speaker 3: interrogations and POW's. They they didn't break, and that is

1503
01:21:51,640 --> 01:21:56,280
Speaker 3: evidence of truth because they would have broken. They would

1504
01:21:56,320 --> 01:21:59,559
Speaker 3: have said, not how guys, fine, we made it up, Fine,

1505
01:22:00,120 --> 01:22:03,519
Speaker 3: we stole the body. They would have capitulated. That was

1506
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:07,120
Speaker 3: the that was the right, that's right, like when the

1507
01:22:07,200 --> 01:22:13,439
Speaker 3: Apostles were tortured and martyred and they were having that

1508
01:22:13,560 --> 01:22:17,160
Speaker 3: happen because they testified to watching a person come back

1509
01:22:17,200 --> 01:22:19,240
Speaker 3: from the dead and continue to work miracles and then

1510
01:22:19,240 --> 01:22:21,080
Speaker 3: ascend into heaven and promise to come back.

1511
01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:23,800
Speaker 2: And people said, bullshit, we will.

1512
01:22:24,080 --> 01:22:26,519
Speaker 3: We will send you to our Gimo and we will

1513
01:22:26,560 --> 01:22:31,360
Speaker 3: break you and we will get you to recant. And

1514
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:33,479
Speaker 3: you told me that you you just said it. So

1515
01:22:33,520 --> 01:22:35,720
Speaker 3: she said you had you had the best guys in

1516
01:22:35,760 --> 01:22:39,200
Speaker 3: the absolute world who can get anyone to recant.

1517
01:22:38,800 --> 01:22:41,240
Speaker 2: That's right, but not them.

1518
01:22:41,520 --> 01:22:45,479
Speaker 1: So is that does that become the basis of h

1519
01:22:45,760 --> 01:22:47,120
Speaker 1: like of the research?

1520
01:22:47,520 --> 01:22:51,320
Speaker 2: Like, how do you get the astronaut to be a h.

1521
01:22:52,840 --> 01:22:59,720
Speaker 1: A so their faith in the mission is so eclipses

1522
01:23:00,120 --> 01:23:02,160
Speaker 1: all sense of self preservation?

1523
01:23:03,240 --> 01:23:05,960
Speaker 2: How do you get them to do it? Is it?

1524
01:23:06,000 --> 01:23:06,200
Speaker 2: Is it?

1525
01:23:06,280 --> 01:23:10,360
Speaker 1: Conditioning? Is it imprinting? Is it? Is it?

1526
01:23:10,400 --> 01:23:12,280
Speaker 2: Is it? Because I think this is this?

1527
01:23:12,280 --> 01:23:16,200
Speaker 1: This is what we're talking about in the whole thing, right,

1528
01:23:16,280 --> 01:23:19,680
Speaker 1: this is what we're talking about. We're talking about the

1529
01:23:19,960 --> 01:23:25,240
Speaker 1: assault on truth and the ability to not back down

1530
01:23:26,479 --> 01:23:29,240
Speaker 1: when it's the hardest. I mean, that's the whole gist

1531
01:23:29,240 --> 01:23:32,160
Speaker 1: of why you initially came on. That's why I wanted

1532
01:23:32,200 --> 01:23:35,599
Speaker 1: to explore it at this level. So is is that?

1533
01:23:36,400 --> 01:23:40,280
Speaker 1: Is that for for anybody in their quest for truth

1534
01:23:40,600 --> 01:23:43,519
Speaker 1: or purpose or meaning or whatever? Because I think the

1535
01:23:43,600 --> 01:23:46,280
Speaker 1: quest becomes to live in a state of truth. Right,

1536
01:23:46,320 --> 01:23:49,320
Speaker 1: that's the ultimate sense of that you have meaning in

1537
01:23:49,400 --> 01:23:52,479
Speaker 1: life if you can look at yourself in the mirror

1538
01:23:52,520 --> 01:23:56,759
Speaker 1: and say I am living a life in pursuit of truth,

1539
01:23:57,479 --> 01:24:01,000
Speaker 1: and then you know I and then the the what

1540
01:24:01,160 --> 01:24:04,080
Speaker 1: is it? The ideation of truth is emblementic of a

1541
01:24:04,200 --> 01:24:07,519
Speaker 1: moral structure right and you can live and that way

1542
01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:09,719
Speaker 1: we don't degrade into chaos and masks.

1543
01:24:09,800 --> 01:24:12,400
Speaker 2: You know. Yeah, the twentieth centis we're talking.

1544
01:24:12,080 --> 01:24:16,040
Speaker 3: About this as like middle aged men using the concepts

1545
01:24:16,080 --> 01:24:21,200
Speaker 3: that we have developed as old guys. Essentially, like I think, say,

1546
01:24:21,280 --> 01:24:23,400
Speaker 3: for instance, lack of a better number twenty year olds,

1547
01:24:23,760 --> 01:24:26,559
Speaker 3: I think they have that, but it's unconscious and they

1548
01:24:26,560 --> 01:24:29,000
Speaker 3: don't think about it in the same like they're not

1549
01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:32,600
Speaker 3: not necessarily going to have that same conversation with the

1550
01:24:32,600 --> 01:24:34,400
Speaker 3: words we're using, but they're doing the same thing that

1551
01:24:34,680 --> 01:24:38,160
Speaker 3: everyone is on their path seeking that And what I

1552
01:24:38,200 --> 01:24:41,040
Speaker 3: would say to them is that you will get to

1553
01:24:41,080 --> 01:24:45,320
Speaker 3: that point of this realization that that you're saying and

1554
01:24:45,360 --> 01:24:50,120
Speaker 3: that we're talking about, which is how do you how

1555
01:24:50,120 --> 01:24:53,080
Speaker 3: do you know what's true? Because when you're young, you're

1556
01:24:53,080 --> 01:24:55,680
Speaker 3: going through life because you're being pushed through grown up

1557
01:24:55,720 --> 01:24:59,000
Speaker 3: and the system and what have you. But you're you're

1558
01:24:59,040 --> 01:25:02,760
Speaker 3: not always thinking about what's true at the deeper philosophical

1559
01:25:02,840 --> 01:25:05,479
Speaker 3: level unless some people do, right, but like most people

1560
01:25:05,520 --> 01:25:07,760
Speaker 3: probably aren't. You know, you're going out having a good

1561
01:25:07,800 --> 01:25:11,280
Speaker 3: time or what have you. But what has happening that

1562
01:25:11,320 --> 01:25:14,479
Speaker 3: I've seen, I've experienced and sounds like it's tracking with

1563
01:25:14,520 --> 01:25:20,000
Speaker 3: what you're saying too, is that you start to develop

1564
01:25:20,200 --> 01:25:26,000
Speaker 3: excuse me, this this notion that you're looking at the

1565
01:25:26,040 --> 01:25:28,599
Speaker 3: world you're living in you're you're like, this doesn't seem

1566
01:25:28,640 --> 01:25:30,920
Speaker 3: real or what is real about it? I mean philosophically,

1567
01:25:30,960 --> 01:25:33,840
Speaker 3: that's what Descartes asked, and he said, what's real?

1568
01:25:34,040 --> 01:25:34,280
Speaker 2: I think?

1569
01:25:34,280 --> 01:25:37,240
Speaker 1: Therefore, I am that's right, what ten years in a

1570
01:25:37,240 --> 01:25:41,280
Speaker 1: cabin in isolation? Well, yeah, right, and so you know,

1571
01:25:41,640 --> 01:25:47,440
Speaker 1: like your question was, well, it's it's it's the acceptance

1572
01:25:47,479 --> 01:25:51,160
Speaker 1: of metic cognition. If I can think about thinking and

1573
01:25:51,240 --> 01:25:55,599
Speaker 1: do it in a systematic way that I can ground

1574
01:25:55,640 --> 01:26:00,639
Speaker 1: myself in truth, whatever the truth you choose is, then

1575
01:26:00,800 --> 01:26:04,200
Speaker 1: I have a shot at a at a healthy framework

1576
01:26:04,200 --> 01:26:05,160
Speaker 1: of reality. Right.

1577
01:26:05,200 --> 01:26:06,519
Speaker 3: I have a little bit of data for you all.

1578
01:26:06,560 --> 01:26:08,519
Speaker 3: Come back to on that in a second, because I

1579
01:26:08,560 --> 01:26:11,320
Speaker 3: published a study on that. Actually I knew you did.

1580
01:26:12,880 --> 01:26:16,840
Speaker 2: I but but.

1581
01:26:16,800 --> 01:26:18,960
Speaker 3: You asked, like, how do we get the astronauts to

1582
01:26:19,080 --> 01:26:22,000
Speaker 3: that point? And I would say my answer is that

1583
01:26:22,479 --> 01:26:25,560
Speaker 3: it's the the end that the question is actually the opposite.

1584
01:26:26,520 --> 01:26:30,200
Speaker 3: The astronauts already at that point when you launch, like

1585
01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:32,760
Speaker 3: it's like it's like when you like, I don't I

1586
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:35,240
Speaker 3: haven't served in the way that you guys have served.

1587
01:26:35,520 --> 01:26:37,360
Speaker 3: But like I imagine when you when you first deploy,

1588
01:26:37,479 --> 01:26:39,120
Speaker 3: like you're feeling pretty good, You're.

1589
01:26:38,920 --> 01:26:41,000
Speaker 2: Excited to get some I was scared.

1590
01:26:41,680 --> 01:26:44,680
Speaker 1: Like initially I was good, but then the reality of

1591
01:26:44,720 --> 01:26:47,479
Speaker 1: combat hit me because on the way over a friend

1592
01:26:47,479 --> 01:26:50,439
Speaker 1: of mine, Matt Bourgeois, was blown up, and then it

1593
01:26:50,520 --> 01:26:53,760
Speaker 1: then it was like, oh, yeah, that's what I'm talking to.

1594
01:26:54,280 --> 01:26:56,800
Speaker 3: Like when you like the beginning, everything is exactly the

1595
01:26:56,840 --> 01:27:00,240
Speaker 3: astronauts have been trained, they like there already at that

1596
01:27:00,280 --> 01:27:04,080
Speaker 3: point of like max resilience, like you are fortified. The

1597
01:27:04,200 --> 01:27:08,559
Speaker 3: question that we don't have the best that we are

1598
01:27:08,600 --> 01:27:11,439
Speaker 3: asking scientifically that we were running these missions and these

1599
01:27:11,439 --> 01:27:14,639
Speaker 3: simulations to study and to find the answer to, is

1600
01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:19,400
Speaker 3: how do we prevent the breakdowns at that Because you're

1601
01:27:19,400 --> 01:27:22,160
Speaker 3: starting off at a ceiling. What happens is like you

1602
01:27:22,200 --> 01:27:24,840
Speaker 3: just said, at some point, it could be immediately upon

1603
01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:29,360
Speaker 3: deployment there's a degradation, and you're like, whether it's a

1604
01:27:29,400 --> 01:27:32,599
Speaker 3: long term, slow roll degradation or an immediate like oh crap,

1605
01:27:32,680 --> 01:27:37,599
Speaker 3: you're Matt. His name was, like that's a fast degradator, right,

1606
01:27:37,640 --> 01:27:40,320
Speaker 3: Oh shit, this is a wake up call. Now I

1607
01:27:40,680 --> 01:27:44,719
Speaker 3: get it, and it's different. We need to understand, as

1608
01:27:45,520 --> 01:27:49,320
Speaker 3: as a science and a culture, how do we make

1609
01:27:49,360 --> 01:27:53,240
Speaker 3: sure that we don't have that degradation or really accept

1610
01:27:53,280 --> 01:27:55,800
Speaker 3: that it's going to happen. But what NASA's words, they

1611
01:27:56,120 --> 01:28:00,200
Speaker 3: use or developed countermeasures for. So there's lots of countermeasures

1612
01:28:00,200 --> 01:28:03,800
Speaker 3: for these what they call deficits and behavioral health. So

1613
01:28:04,360 --> 01:28:06,719
Speaker 3: and I actually think that's that's an important framework because

1614
01:28:07,080 --> 01:28:09,640
Speaker 3: we can't go in there like to sear thinking that

1615
01:28:09,680 --> 01:28:11,639
Speaker 3: we're going to be the superman who won't break right.

1616
01:28:11,680 --> 01:28:14,200
Speaker 3: We have to accept this will happen, the degradation will occur,

1617
01:28:14,280 --> 01:28:17,120
Speaker 3: we will break down. What we need to do is

1618
01:28:17,200 --> 01:28:20,400
Speaker 3: be prepared for a mitigating it, to knowing what to

1619
01:28:20,439 --> 01:28:24,200
Speaker 3: do when it happens, and three overcoming it to be

1620
01:28:24,280 --> 01:28:28,760
Speaker 3: able to continue to ensure mission success. Right, and the

1621
01:28:28,760 --> 01:28:31,439
Speaker 3: mission success happens because we've been successful with the people,

1622
01:28:32,000 --> 01:28:34,360
Speaker 3: so we don't have great answers.

1623
01:28:34,360 --> 01:28:35,639
Speaker 2: That's why we're running these studies.

1624
01:28:35,640 --> 01:28:38,280
Speaker 3: And part of that goes back to, you know, when

1625
01:28:38,320 --> 01:28:41,120
Speaker 3: astronauts will come back from space, they'd ask them, you know,

1626
01:28:41,160 --> 01:28:43,760
Speaker 3: how things went, particularly during the short mission era of

1627
01:28:43,800 --> 01:28:46,640
Speaker 3: the shuttles, and the sort of the running quip was

1628
01:28:46,680 --> 01:28:48,760
Speaker 3: that like there was no bigger group of liars in

1629
01:28:48,800 --> 01:28:52,360
Speaker 3: the world because everyone's like, oh, went great. Yeah, because

1630
01:28:52,400 --> 01:28:55,120
Speaker 3: nobody wants to admit that there was a problem interpersonally

1631
01:28:55,200 --> 01:28:58,240
Speaker 3: or inter dynamically with the team, because then it's like, well,

1632
01:28:58,240 --> 01:28:59,920
Speaker 3: maybe I won't get picked up for the next mission.

1633
01:29:00,120 --> 01:29:03,080
Speaker 1: That's right, Second Trip Space. It's the same thing with us.

1634
01:29:03,320 --> 01:29:05,920
Speaker 1: I mean, you get the guy who's at his tenth deployment.

1635
01:29:06,520 --> 01:29:09,720
Speaker 1: You know, he's been operating for seventeen straight years in

1636
01:29:09,760 --> 01:29:15,000
Speaker 1: the GWATT. He's fried, you know, from an endocrine probability,

1637
01:29:15,080 --> 01:29:18,880
Speaker 1: from an incan system. He's got massive traumatic brain injury

1638
01:29:18,880 --> 01:29:23,320
Speaker 1: from blast wave exposure. His orthopedic you know, pain is

1639
01:29:23,439 --> 01:29:28,200
Speaker 1: off the charts, right, He's not sleeping, he's got migraines,

1640
01:29:28,560 --> 01:29:32,599
Speaker 1: he's got vestibular issues, He's got everything that falls within

1641
01:29:32,680 --> 01:29:38,040
Speaker 1: the component of operator syndrome. Right. And then he's got

1642
01:29:38,040 --> 01:29:41,120
Speaker 1: the mental health stuff as well too, the survivor's guilt,

1643
01:29:41,439 --> 01:29:44,320
Speaker 1: the lack of intimacy with his home life, you know,

1644
01:29:44,439 --> 01:29:50,320
Speaker 1: the sense of never being able to maximize the experience,

1645
01:29:50,320 --> 01:29:53,080
Speaker 1: the existential experience he felt in combat anywhere else so

1646
01:29:53,120 --> 01:29:56,479
Speaker 1: it's like this whole thing, but what do you ask?

1647
01:29:56,560 --> 01:29:58,880
Speaker 1: And you see it on people, right, you see it.

1648
01:29:59,200 --> 01:30:02,600
Speaker 1: That's the one you thing about where you really I

1649
01:30:02,640 --> 01:30:09,000
Speaker 1: think the higher degree of maybe not empathy or compassion,

1650
01:30:09,120 --> 01:30:12,120
Speaker 1: but the high awareness of those that you care about.

1651
01:30:12,160 --> 01:30:15,160
Speaker 1: You know them, you know their baselines, you know their

1652
01:30:15,200 --> 01:30:18,360
Speaker 1: highs or lows, and you see it happening and you go,

1653
01:30:18,560 --> 01:30:21,639
Speaker 1: are you okay, I'm fine, I'm fine.

1654
01:30:21,840 --> 01:30:22,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.

1655
01:30:23,160 --> 01:30:25,160
Speaker 3: And for lots of reasons. One of it, you don't

1656
01:30:25,200 --> 01:30:28,679
Speaker 3: want to admit that there's something wrong too. You don't

1657
01:30:28,680 --> 01:30:31,200
Speaker 3: want to miss the chance for the next thing too offline,

1658
01:30:32,040 --> 01:30:36,080
Speaker 3: you know. And so they built these missions out because

1659
01:30:36,520 --> 01:30:39,200
Speaker 3: you know, they still know that they're interpersonal problems or

1660
01:30:39,240 --> 01:30:42,479
Speaker 3: team dynamics or like things happen, right, we're humans, and

1661
01:30:42,560 --> 01:30:45,200
Speaker 3: so they're like, we can't have this happen on the

1662
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:48,519
Speaker 3: long trip, Like this has to be fleshed out, and

1663
01:30:48,880 --> 01:30:50,840
Speaker 3: we have to first build a culture to where it's

1664
01:30:50,880 --> 01:30:53,200
Speaker 3: acceptable to tell the truth that things didn't go well,

1665
01:30:53,920 --> 01:30:57,080
Speaker 3: and you know, organizationally within like the the hot wash

1666
01:30:57,080 --> 01:30:58,400
Speaker 3: app like you have to be able to come back

1667
01:30:58,400 --> 01:31:02,160
Speaker 3: and be like I can speak the truth and I

1668
01:31:02,160 --> 01:31:04,639
Speaker 3: know it's not gonna affect getting access to the next mission.

1669
01:31:05,600 --> 01:31:07,400
Speaker 2: That's a tough thing to build for sure.

1670
01:31:07,560 --> 01:31:09,880
Speaker 3: But you know, and I can't even imagine what some

1671
01:31:09,920 --> 01:31:12,160
Speaker 3: of those guys would come back with it everything you

1672
01:31:12,320 --> 01:31:16,160
Speaker 3: just described. I know when I came back from the mission,

1673
01:31:16,200 --> 01:31:21,720
Speaker 3: I did there were challenges that I generally tend not

1674
01:31:22,880 --> 01:31:27,280
Speaker 3: to get into, just out of respect for some facets

1675
01:31:27,280 --> 01:31:29,519
Speaker 3: of the mission and the team boat. Right, there were

1676
01:31:29,560 --> 01:31:33,280
Speaker 3: times I was I was an anvil to a hammer,

1677
01:31:34,000 --> 01:31:37,000
Speaker 3: and I felt that way at.

1678
01:31:36,920 --> 01:31:41,200
Speaker 1: What's funny you say that, man, I actually talk about

1679
01:31:41,360 --> 01:31:43,559
Speaker 1: the choice of being the anvilla or the hammer in

1680
01:31:43,600 --> 01:31:46,400
Speaker 1: your life, man, because that's and I had this young

1681
01:31:46,479 --> 01:31:49,840
Speaker 1: man who I've known a long time, men toward him

1682
01:31:49,880 --> 01:31:53,640
Speaker 1: a long time. He's being medically retired from from a

1683
01:31:53,680 --> 01:31:57,120
Speaker 1: Tier one unit, and as he was going through that

1684
01:31:57,560 --> 01:32:01,679
Speaker 1: the process of the training to get into this unit,

1685
01:32:02,600 --> 01:32:05,520
Speaker 1: like he was midway through, and he gave me that analogy.

1686
01:32:05,640 --> 01:32:08,640
Speaker 1: He's like because I'm like, because he was telling me

1687
01:32:08,800 --> 01:32:12,719
Speaker 1: the the insane physical pressures that were they were putting

1688
01:32:12,760 --> 01:32:16,640
Speaker 1: them on on top of the emotional and cognitive requirements

1689
01:32:16,680 --> 01:32:21,320
Speaker 1: for the operational requirement. Right, you can't miss you can't

1690
01:32:21,360 --> 01:32:25,320
Speaker 1: make the wrong step. There was no latitude in this

1691
01:32:25,439 --> 01:32:28,800
Speaker 1: level of life and death. And and he says, I

1692
01:32:28,840 --> 01:32:33,679
Speaker 1: remember him saying, he's like what He's like, it's making

1693
01:32:33,720 --> 01:32:36,120
Speaker 1: the choice are you going to be the anvil?

1694
01:32:36,760 --> 01:32:36,960
Speaker 2: Right?

1695
01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:39,840
Speaker 1: Are you going to place yourself on the anvil or

1696
01:32:40,439 --> 01:32:42,559
Speaker 1: or are you going to have life place you on

1697
01:32:42,640 --> 01:32:45,240
Speaker 1: the anvil? And that either way you're getting the hammer

1698
01:32:45,439 --> 01:32:48,160
Speaker 1: no matter what. So what how are you going.

1699
01:32:48,120 --> 01:32:49,320
Speaker 2: To perceive it? What?

1700
01:32:50,000 --> 01:32:53,320
Speaker 3: And I and and I took great pride in that

1701
01:32:53,400 --> 01:32:56,000
Speaker 3: respect of being so I'm the oldest of seven in

1702
01:32:56,040 --> 01:33:00,439
Speaker 3: my family. Well I was my dead dad when Wall like,

1703
01:33:00,479 --> 01:33:03,000
Speaker 3: I have printal child. I I've been an anvil in

1704
01:33:03,000 --> 01:33:04,360
Speaker 3: a lot of ways, for a lot of things, for

1705
01:33:04,400 --> 01:33:07,719
Speaker 3: a lot of people. And you look at it exactly

1706
01:33:07,800 --> 01:33:11,000
Speaker 3: as you said, there's a choice of a way in

1707
01:33:11,040 --> 01:33:15,360
Speaker 3: which you look at it. Anvils are immensely strong. Anvils

1708
01:33:15,880 --> 01:33:22,360
Speaker 3: absorb a lot of pain and pressure because they're strong.

1709
01:33:22,720 --> 01:33:27,200
Speaker 3: They that they're and so that's a positive thing. And

1710
01:33:28,360 --> 01:33:34,519
Speaker 3: you know that analogy from that mission, You know, I

1711
01:33:34,720 --> 01:33:39,040
Speaker 3: did that to help the mission move forward so that

1712
01:33:39,160 --> 01:33:43,080
Speaker 3: others didn't have to be the anvil. And and I

1713
01:33:43,120 --> 01:33:50,360
Speaker 3: was proud to do. That's that's right. That but but

1714
01:33:50,479 --> 01:33:53,679
Speaker 3: it you know, it still came aut a you bottle

1715
01:33:53,720 --> 01:33:55,920
Speaker 3: a lot up. That came at a big cost. So

1716
01:33:56,160 --> 01:33:58,599
Speaker 3: like when I came home from the mission, like it

1717
01:33:58,640 --> 01:34:01,799
Speaker 3: wasn't anything like you guys done or the duration or extent,

1718
01:34:02,200 --> 01:34:05,880
Speaker 3: but like it was weird, Like I generally like I

1719
01:34:05,920 --> 01:34:07,280
Speaker 3: couldn't really talk to people about it.

1720
01:34:07,400 --> 01:34:10,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the toughest part.

1721
01:34:11,080 --> 01:34:13,439
Speaker 2: And if I did, they would still wouldn't get it.

1722
01:34:13,920 --> 01:34:16,519
Speaker 3: And in order, you'd get like trite answers of like

1723
01:34:16,680 --> 01:34:20,240
Speaker 3: cliches and and you're appreciative of the effort, but like

1724
01:34:20,720 --> 01:34:24,320
Speaker 3: you know it, it's not the genuine curiosity. No, And

1725
01:34:24,320 --> 01:34:26,600
Speaker 3: I would just sit in the dark sometimes in my

1726
01:34:26,680 --> 01:34:30,080
Speaker 3: apartment by myself and just enjoy it of like wow,

1727
01:34:30,720 --> 01:34:33,559
Speaker 3: because you're just processing stuff and you're working through things.

1728
01:34:33,680 --> 01:34:38,120
Speaker 3: And so I have enormous respect for what those guys

1729
01:34:38,200 --> 01:34:43,800
Speaker 3: must handle because you know, like in wrestling, we teach

1730
01:34:44,640 --> 01:34:47,400
Speaker 3: young boys and men that they need to be absolute

1731
01:34:47,439 --> 01:34:51,200
Speaker 3: savages on the mat and you know, killers on the mat, right,

1732
01:34:51,720 --> 01:34:54,080
Speaker 3: you know, within boundaries, within rules, but such as life.

1733
01:34:54,120 --> 01:34:56,840
Speaker 3: But it's we also teach them as coaches and teachers

1734
01:34:57,040 --> 01:34:59,600
Speaker 3: in the framework of the education system that when you

1735
01:34:59,600 --> 01:35:03,720
Speaker 3: step off that, Matt, you were a gentleman and so economy.

1736
01:35:03,880 --> 01:35:07,519
Speaker 3: That's that's when you guys come back and you're like,

1737
01:35:07,920 --> 01:35:10,040
Speaker 3: I just you know, I was I was reading Eddie

1738
01:35:10,040 --> 01:35:11,639
Speaker 3: Penny's book and he's like, so I come back and I'm

1739
01:35:11,720 --> 01:35:13,920
Speaker 3: driving like crazy round bag and I come back and

1740
01:35:14,240 --> 01:35:15,680
Speaker 3: and I'm and people look at me like I'm a

1741
01:35:15,680 --> 01:35:19,200
Speaker 3: savage because I'm like and he's like, yeah, I guess

1742
01:35:19,240 --> 01:35:22,360
Speaker 3: I guess I need to recalibrate that. That's right, because

1743
01:35:22,400 --> 01:35:24,000
Speaker 3: there's these dual messages.

1744
01:35:25,400 --> 01:35:28,599
Speaker 1: Well, that's that's like you, I mean, the perfect description

1745
01:35:28,760 --> 01:35:33,720
Speaker 1: is you you build a tool, and the human is

1746
01:35:33,760 --> 01:35:39,120
Speaker 1: the tool for a particular mission, right, and and the

1747
01:35:39,160 --> 01:35:50,000
Speaker 1: most extreme missions require the most extreme like you said, pressure, heat, pain, right,

1748
01:35:50,360 --> 01:35:52,439
Speaker 1: and so you're what are you doing? I think there's

1749
01:35:52,479 --> 01:35:58,840
Speaker 1: a natural uh inn a. Maybe levity's not not the

1750
01:35:58,920 --> 01:36:03,600
Speaker 1: right word. There's a there's a natural component of the

1751
01:36:03,680 --> 01:36:10,720
Speaker 1: human condition that is affiliated with the ease of interaction,

1752
01:36:11,080 --> 01:36:16,880
Speaker 1: the facilitation of of reciprocal emotion, right, those back and

1753
01:36:17,000 --> 01:36:21,440
Speaker 1: force that make life enjoyable, right, the pursuit of happiness

1754
01:36:21,479 --> 01:36:22,800
Speaker 1: if you want to call it that. Right, Those guys

1755
01:36:22,840 --> 01:36:26,320
Speaker 1: are pretty smart, but it's it's man, there's a lot

1756
01:36:26,400 --> 01:36:30,960
Speaker 1: of other missions that that's not conducive. So we have

1757
01:36:31,080 --> 01:36:33,960
Speaker 1: to do these other things to get the result right,

1758
01:36:34,360 --> 01:36:37,000
Speaker 1: to test what's underneath that.

1759
01:36:37,840 --> 01:36:40,479
Speaker 3: It's an extraordinary burden that are put on our war

1760
01:36:40,520 --> 01:36:46,280
Speaker 3: fighters to come home and then said, just now be normal,

1761
01:36:46,400 --> 01:36:51,000
Speaker 3: flip that switch off and be normal to people. And

1762
01:36:51,800 --> 01:36:55,680
Speaker 3: you know, like your family just wants their dad, like

1763
01:36:55,720 --> 01:36:58,479
Speaker 3: they don't want like you know, it's just it's such

1764
01:36:58,479 --> 01:37:01,439
Speaker 3: a weird contrast, and I think that's difficult to wrestle.

1765
01:37:01,680 --> 01:37:04,519
Speaker 1: I think we're doing we're dealing with that in a

1766
01:37:05,160 --> 01:37:07,160
Speaker 1: pretty profound societal way.

1767
01:37:07,280 --> 01:37:07,679
Speaker 2: Right now.

1768
01:37:07,720 --> 01:37:10,720
Speaker 1: We've been we've been put on the anvil and all

1769
01:37:10,720 --> 01:37:20,800
Speaker 1: these different ideas, ideological these forced ideological influences, and now

1770
01:37:20,880 --> 01:37:25,880
Speaker 1: what's happening is we're like, now we're the degradation of

1771
01:37:26,600 --> 01:37:28,519
Speaker 1: not not that it wouldn't be the degradation, it'd be

1772
01:37:28,560 --> 01:37:32,760
Speaker 1: the emergence of that morality, that core stuff that you

1773
01:37:32,920 --> 01:37:38,960
Speaker 1: worked so hard from Chicago in wrestling, through academia, through

1774
01:37:39,040 --> 01:37:42,760
Speaker 1: the Nationalist mission, and then into that moment where you

1775
01:37:42,840 --> 01:37:45,880
Speaker 1: are now where it's like, no, I had to do

1776
01:37:45,960 --> 01:37:49,320
Speaker 1: what I did because of all of this.

1777
01:37:49,920 --> 01:37:52,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, and if I can riff on that for at

1778
01:37:52,600 --> 01:37:59,760
Speaker 3: the moment, there's there's a lot I could unpack on

1779
01:37:59,800 --> 01:38:02,600
Speaker 3: it that you know, one level, when I would go

1780
01:38:02,640 --> 01:38:04,599
Speaker 3: through I had a couple different instances in which things

1781
01:38:04,640 --> 01:38:09,240
Speaker 3: came up of real ethical challenges or quandaries, just difficult

1782
01:38:09,280 --> 01:38:14,120
Speaker 3: things like mountains I didn't want to climb, and I

1783
01:38:14,280 --> 01:38:20,519
Speaker 3: thought to myself, you know, like this is so hard

1784
01:38:20,560 --> 01:38:23,519
Speaker 3: to do. But then I thought like, but I've been

1785
01:38:23,600 --> 01:38:27,439
Speaker 3: through so much I should If if what I have

1786
01:38:27,560 --> 01:38:31,280
Speaker 3: been through isn't enough to prepare someone for this, then

1787
01:38:31,720 --> 01:38:35,320
Speaker 3: nothing would be. So then I should do this because

1788
01:38:35,920 --> 01:38:39,840
Speaker 3: no one will if not. And so that was the past.

1789
01:38:39,960 --> 01:38:42,719
Speaker 3: Was God preparing me for the future with the strength

1790
01:38:42,720 --> 01:38:44,800
Speaker 3: Because to answer your question, how do you make those

1791
01:38:46,360 --> 01:38:49,200
Speaker 3: decisions in the gray the discernment? How do you how

1792
01:38:49,200 --> 01:38:51,920
Speaker 3: do you do what's right and wrong? And there are

1793
01:38:51,960 --> 01:38:55,400
Speaker 3: some really big times in life of right and wrong,

1794
01:38:56,040 --> 01:38:58,720
Speaker 3: like when life and death changes on it. And that

1795
01:38:58,800 --> 01:39:00,880
Speaker 3: might be living or dying, but it could also just

1796
01:39:00,920 --> 01:39:03,559
Speaker 3: be someone's life and death of where does their career

1797
01:39:03,600 --> 01:39:06,280
Speaker 3: trajectory go? Because you're the person in charge of deciding that,

1798
01:39:06,960 --> 01:39:09,640
Speaker 3: whether you're an HR representative or a judge or a

1799
01:39:09,680 --> 01:39:12,519
Speaker 3: cop or all sorts of things. Right, you can control

1800
01:39:12,560 --> 01:39:14,840
Speaker 3: lots of people's life trajectories. You can do the right

1801
01:39:14,880 --> 01:39:16,840
Speaker 3: thing and the wrong thing in your own life too,

1802
01:39:18,520 --> 01:39:21,240
Speaker 3: some really big calls. And to me, that would be

1803
01:39:21,400 --> 01:39:24,760
Speaker 3: like taking a kid from MEPs, the entry point of

1804
01:39:24,800 --> 01:39:27,960
Speaker 3: the military, and putting them on a Tier one team.

1805
01:39:28,120 --> 01:39:31,280
Speaker 3: You don't have the skill. You're not going to lift

1806
01:39:31,320 --> 01:39:33,080
Speaker 3: five hundred pounds on a deadlift right off the bat.

1807
01:39:33,120 --> 01:39:35,040
Speaker 3: You need to build up. So in the same way,

1808
01:39:35,160 --> 01:39:41,800
Speaker 3: I think your ethical discernment in mental fortitude of discerning

1809
01:39:42,120 --> 01:39:46,760
Speaker 3: great in black and white, that that is, you think

1810
01:39:46,760 --> 01:39:49,400
Speaker 3: of it as a muscle in the brain or your soul,

1811
01:39:49,960 --> 01:39:52,360
Speaker 3: It's really more of a soul muscle in a brain thing, right,

1812
01:39:52,880 --> 01:39:58,880
Speaker 3: that has to be developed and built through smaller decisions

1813
01:39:58,920 --> 01:40:00,760
Speaker 3: of things, which is kind of what I was referring to.

1814
01:40:00,800 --> 01:40:02,599
Speaker 3: When you see when you grew up, or you see

1815
01:40:02,600 --> 01:40:04,360
Speaker 3: things that are right and wrong, you learn things. You

1816
01:40:04,400 --> 01:40:09,559
Speaker 3: also learn, and we mentioned this earlier suffering, like when

1817
01:40:09,600 --> 01:40:12,640
Speaker 3: you learn that. So for me, like I got the

1818
01:40:12,680 --> 01:40:14,320
Speaker 3: living shit kicked out of me day in and day out,

1819
01:40:14,320 --> 01:40:17,000
Speaker 3: and wrestling times I thought I would die. I literally

1820
01:40:17,040 --> 01:40:19,040
Speaker 3: thought I was gonna die and get choked out or

1821
01:40:19,120 --> 01:40:23,080
Speaker 3: killed or broke it. Like there were absolute beasts and

1822
01:40:23,160 --> 01:40:26,559
Speaker 3: killers like in my room that were very very good

1823
01:40:27,640 --> 01:40:30,479
Speaker 3: and uh, and I wasn't. As basically the contrast, they

1824
01:40:30,479 --> 01:40:31,479
Speaker 3: didn't even have to be that good.

1825
01:40:31,520 --> 01:40:32,000
Speaker 2: I sucked.

1826
01:40:32,640 --> 01:40:35,360
Speaker 3: But you learn that you can suffer. And every time

1827
01:40:35,400 --> 01:40:38,599
Speaker 3: you think you're gonna quit, you come back the next day,

1828
01:40:38,880 --> 01:40:41,120
Speaker 3: and one day more and one day, and before you

1829
01:40:41,200 --> 01:40:43,439
Speaker 3: know it, you're the last guy standing after four years,

1830
01:40:43,960 --> 01:40:48,840
Speaker 3: when everybody else has walked away for whatever reason, and

1831
01:40:48,840 --> 01:40:52,599
Speaker 3: and you realize that you can do it because you've

1832
01:40:52,600 --> 01:40:55,640
Speaker 3: done it. But it's those little decisions. So like you

1833
01:40:55,680 --> 01:40:57,320
Speaker 3: know the stuff that that we were talking about, and

1834
01:40:57,439 --> 01:41:00,599
Speaker 3: and you know that James talked about in the turning

1835
01:41:00,600 --> 01:41:03,360
Speaker 3: down one hundred thousand dollars, to not stay silent and

1836
01:41:03,400 --> 01:41:05,200
Speaker 3: to tell the truth instead of give into a lie

1837
01:41:05,479 --> 01:41:08,559
Speaker 3: or speak up against the president when he's telling us

1838
01:41:08,600 --> 01:41:13,400
Speaker 3: to undermine some pretty serious stuff. Those things don't I mean,

1839
01:41:13,560 --> 01:41:15,920
Speaker 3: I suppose they could happen in a vacuum, but generally speaking,

1840
01:41:15,960 --> 01:41:19,320
Speaker 3: those are really really tough calls. Yes, and I and

1841
01:41:19,360 --> 01:41:21,559
Speaker 3: I'd be lying if I said it was so easy,

1842
01:41:21,600 --> 01:41:24,600
Speaker 3: because it wasn't. And I remember because we mentioned the apostles,

1843
01:41:24,600 --> 01:41:29,240
Speaker 3: I'll go back to that. I went to my priest

1844
01:41:29,320 --> 01:41:31,160
Speaker 3: and this is and I mentioned this because it's a

1845
01:41:31,160 --> 01:41:34,200
Speaker 3: good example of things to keep in mind for leadership

1846
01:41:34,280 --> 01:41:36,800
Speaker 3: when people are mentoring others, because people will come to

1847
01:41:36,840 --> 01:41:38,960
Speaker 3: you for advice, and the way that we answer advice

1848
01:41:39,560 --> 01:41:43,000
Speaker 3: changes their course trajectories to as leaders. And so I

1849
01:41:43,040 --> 01:41:44,960
Speaker 3: went to one priest that and I said, hey, I'm

1850
01:41:44,960 --> 01:41:47,040
Speaker 3: going through this thing. You could just kind of keep

1851
01:41:47,080 --> 01:41:49,840
Speaker 3: me in prayer of you know, I've had I've had

1852
01:41:49,880 --> 01:41:53,320
Speaker 3: to blow the whistle on some rough stuff at work,

1853
01:41:56,439 --> 01:41:57,600
Speaker 3: and I just I want to be able to do

1854
01:41:57,640 --> 01:41:59,680
Speaker 3: the right thing, but but I don't. And I had

1855
01:41:59,680 --> 01:42:05,120
Speaker 3: one say you could tell he got uneasy, and he

1856
01:42:05,200 --> 01:42:07,360
Speaker 3: kind of and he kind of gave a very what

1857
01:42:07,400 --> 01:42:09,360
Speaker 3: you'd think of as like a trite or a cliche

1858
01:42:09,479 --> 01:42:10,040
Speaker 3: kind of answer.

1859
01:42:10,040 --> 01:42:13,120
Speaker 2: He's like, Okay, well, sure, I'll pray for you, but

1860
01:42:14,280 --> 01:42:14,559
Speaker 2: you know.

1861
01:42:14,560 --> 01:42:18,240
Speaker 3: Try to try to be like a disciple of be

1862
01:42:18,320 --> 01:42:20,000
Speaker 3: like the disciples of Christ. And this was in the

1863
01:42:20,200 --> 01:42:24,720
Speaker 3: week of Lent, right before Easter Lassion, and so that

1864
01:42:24,840 --> 01:42:26,960
Speaker 3: was his advice to me. But to me when he

1865
01:42:27,040 --> 01:42:29,280
Speaker 3: told me that first of all, the vibe I got

1866
01:42:29,400 --> 01:42:32,920
Speaker 3: was like an uneasy one and like as if I

1867
01:42:32,960 --> 01:42:35,680
Speaker 3: was doing might be doing something wrong. Yes, but he

1868
01:42:35,680 --> 01:42:37,680
Speaker 3: would pray for me, which is like you know, the

1869
01:42:38,000 --> 01:42:42,559
Speaker 3: we're in the south there, you know. But then the

1870
01:42:42,600 --> 01:42:44,080
Speaker 3: other thing it made me think of, right, and we

1871
01:42:44,080 --> 01:42:45,920
Speaker 3: don't always think about this as leaders of how people

1872
01:42:45,960 --> 01:42:48,360
Speaker 3: listen to what we say because they but what I

1873
01:42:48,439 --> 01:42:51,559
Speaker 3: heard during the week Holy Week and the passion, He's like,

1874
01:42:51,720 --> 01:42:53,880
Speaker 3: you know, I'll pray for you to be like the

1875
01:42:53,880 --> 01:42:56,960
Speaker 3: disciples of Christ. I'm like, you mean the guys who

1876
01:42:57,000 --> 01:42:59,519
Speaker 3: abandoned him, what kind of courage? Because I was looking

1877
01:42:59,520 --> 01:43:01,680
Speaker 3: for courage. Yeah, I was looking was to be end

1878
01:43:01,760 --> 01:43:03,639
Speaker 3: courage and have that courage.

1879
01:43:04,240 --> 01:43:06,479
Speaker 2: Go put yourself on your cross. It's worth it.

1880
01:43:07,280 --> 01:43:11,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, because you're again you're calibrating this discernment. And I'm like,

1881
01:43:12,520 --> 01:43:15,240
Speaker 3: during this particular week, it was the women who went

1882
01:43:15,280 --> 01:43:16,000
Speaker 3: to his cross.

1883
01:43:16,800 --> 01:43:17,240
Speaker 2: That's right.

1884
01:43:17,280 --> 01:43:19,479
Speaker 3: His disciples did not want I mean one is one

1885
01:43:19,520 --> 01:43:22,000
Speaker 3: of them designed him three times they and I guess

1886
01:43:22,040 --> 01:43:22,800
Speaker 3: John was on the cross.

1887
01:43:22,800 --> 01:43:25,080
Speaker 2: Okay, sorry John.

1888
01:43:24,880 --> 01:43:27,439
Speaker 3: But like you know, for the most part, they weren't

1889
01:43:27,479 --> 01:43:30,599
Speaker 3: really bastions of courage at that point. That was what

1890
01:43:30,680 --> 01:43:34,519
Speaker 3: the Resurrection re embolded them, and the Holy Spirit came down.

1891
01:43:34,640 --> 01:43:36,760
Speaker 3: They gave them the courage that they needed that they

1892
01:43:36,760 --> 01:43:39,559
Speaker 3: thought they had. Remember, They're like, no do anything anything,

1893
01:43:39,720 --> 01:43:42,880
Speaker 3: and he's like, really, how about like three before the

1894
01:43:42,960 --> 01:43:44,080
Speaker 3: night's over, you're gonna dieven.

1895
01:43:44,160 --> 01:43:46,680
Speaker 2: Not a ship a chance. Yeah, He's like all right,

1896
01:43:46,760 --> 01:43:51,439
Speaker 2: brom the rock. But like so that I thought about that,

1897
01:43:51,520 --> 01:43:54,280
Speaker 2: and I'm like, you know, like like is that a

1898
01:43:54,280 --> 01:43:54,880
Speaker 2: great example.

1899
01:43:55,040 --> 01:43:57,800
Speaker 3: But then and I was mad about it because then

1900
01:43:57,840 --> 01:44:00,280
Speaker 3: I went to another priest literally twenty feet away at

1901
01:44:00,280 --> 01:44:01,840
Speaker 3: the other side of the church, shaking people's hands on

1902
01:44:02,120 --> 01:44:05,160
Speaker 3: and very different style person. Yeah, and I told him

1903
01:44:05,160 --> 01:44:09,080
Speaker 3: he's like Saint Joseph's feast days coming up. He's just

1904
01:44:09,560 --> 01:44:12,599
Speaker 3: the he is the defender against demons and the fighter

1905
01:44:12,760 --> 01:44:15,559
Speaker 3: against the worker for your work. And he's like, you

1906
01:44:15,600 --> 01:44:17,960
Speaker 3: will be strong, And I was like, yeah, yeah, there

1907
01:44:17,960 --> 01:44:21,200
Speaker 3: you go. That's wrong, like like so like so I

1908
01:44:21,240 --> 01:44:23,000
Speaker 3: was mad about that at first, but then in the

1909
01:44:23,120 --> 01:44:24,640
Speaker 3: last couple of weeks, I've been thinking about that from

1910
01:44:24,680 --> 01:44:26,320
Speaker 3: about five months ago, and I realized, you.

1911
01:44:26,320 --> 01:44:27,800
Speaker 2: Know, like we used it.

1912
01:44:27,840 --> 01:44:30,160
Speaker 3: I'm like, well he didn't say when they were all

1913
01:44:30,160 --> 01:44:34,240
Speaker 3: actually pretty courageous. They all got I mean they were martyred, like, okay,

1914
01:44:34,320 --> 01:44:35,960
Speaker 3: so but as leaders, we don't know.

1915
01:44:36,040 --> 01:44:37,439
Speaker 2: We need to give be.

1916
01:44:37,479 --> 01:44:40,360
Speaker 3: Mindful of how people hear what we say, yes, because

1917
01:44:40,400 --> 01:44:42,479
Speaker 3: we may give the wrong context and they can interpret

1918
01:44:42,720 --> 01:44:45,080
Speaker 3: things a little bit exerctly. And and you know, it's

1919
01:44:45,120 --> 01:44:47,439
Speaker 3: kind of like old man talking from my point of view,

1920
01:44:47,479 --> 01:44:49,360
Speaker 3: as like, you know, how do we mentor and coach

1921
01:44:49,560 --> 01:44:51,439
Speaker 3: younger people up and keeping that in check.

1922
01:44:53,640 --> 01:44:57,879
Speaker 1: It's giving him the space, giving them just enough planning

1923
01:44:57,920 --> 01:45:02,559
Speaker 1: and dropping enough seeds so that when they're ready, you

1924
01:45:02,600 --> 01:45:06,599
Speaker 1: know that the manifestation of that courage can present itself

1925
01:45:06,640 --> 01:45:09,160
Speaker 1: in the right time, the right place. But to have

1926
01:45:09,200 --> 01:45:14,400
Speaker 1: the understanding and the expectation that sin is always tempting

1927
01:45:14,520 --> 01:45:17,160
Speaker 1: us to take the easier route.

1928
01:45:17,200 --> 01:45:17,599
Speaker 2: It is.

1929
01:45:18,000 --> 01:45:22,320
Speaker 3: And that's where again I come back to that idea

1930
01:45:22,439 --> 01:45:26,800
Speaker 3: that like, how do we make these important big decisions

1931
01:45:26,920 --> 01:45:32,599
Speaker 3: it's everyone will face in life like it's through practice.

1932
01:45:32,680 --> 01:45:36,559
Speaker 3: It's whether it's mental practice or physical practice, lifting weights

1933
01:45:36,720 --> 01:45:43,280
Speaker 3: or doing arithmetic, if you know, if we have About

1934
01:45:43,600 --> 01:45:45,920
Speaker 3: ten or twelve years ago, I wrote a blog series

1935
01:45:45,960 --> 01:45:50,720
Speaker 3: for UFC fighter Matt Linland and becoming a very close

1936
01:45:50,760 --> 01:45:52,960
Speaker 3: friend of mine. He spoke at my wedding, he fought

1937
01:45:53,160 --> 01:45:56,639
Speaker 3: federal Menako's if you remember the old days, Like he's

1938
01:45:56,800 --> 01:46:01,160
Speaker 3: og one of my very best friends now. But I

1939
01:46:01,200 --> 01:46:05,360
Speaker 3: wrote a series for him during the George Zimmerman trial

1940
01:46:05,439 --> 01:46:07,479
Speaker 3: here in Florida that was in the national news and

1941
01:46:07,520 --> 01:46:09,120
Speaker 3: I was just watching it, and I wrote the series.

1942
01:46:09,160 --> 01:46:13,240
Speaker 3: It's called a Dearth of Heroism, saying that, like, we

1943
01:46:13,360 --> 01:46:17,240
Speaker 3: just don't have people in society who often are comfortable

1944
01:46:17,840 --> 01:46:23,240
Speaker 3: taking heroic action of ethical or physical courage necessary. Because

1945
01:46:23,240 --> 01:46:25,639
Speaker 3: I was watching some witnesses and testify in that case,

1946
01:46:25,640 --> 01:46:28,920
Speaker 3: who like basically heard whoever it was kicking the shit

1947
01:46:28,960 --> 01:46:32,680
Speaker 3: out of the other person in that right battle. And

1948
01:46:32,720 --> 01:46:34,160
Speaker 3: he said, So I hid in the bushes and called

1949
01:46:34,160 --> 01:46:40,120
Speaker 3: the cops, And I'm like, come on, man, like, maybe,

1950
01:46:40,160 --> 01:46:42,519
Speaker 3: like I'm the person, I'm a kind of person who

1951
01:46:42,600 --> 01:46:45,719
Speaker 3: goes to the fire to help. Sometimes that's not always

1952
01:46:45,720 --> 01:46:48,560
Speaker 3: the best advisable. I understand, there's times where.

1953
01:46:48,880 --> 01:46:49,400
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1954
01:46:49,800 --> 01:46:52,639
Speaker 1: I think it's always the best thing to do, Yeah,

1955
01:46:52,840 --> 01:46:55,680
Speaker 1: even regardless of the pain you're gonna suffer, because then

1956
01:46:55,720 --> 01:46:57,599
Speaker 1: you'll never have the regret that you did.

1957
01:46:58,120 --> 01:47:00,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, because somebody died, that's right in that case.

1958
01:47:00,640 --> 01:47:04,000
Speaker 3: And and so I wrote this, it was called a

1959
01:47:04,000 --> 01:47:05,760
Speaker 3: dearth of heroism, and I think this is what we're

1960
01:47:05,800 --> 01:47:08,240
Speaker 3: still talking about here, which is that in culture and

1961
01:47:08,280 --> 01:47:11,679
Speaker 3: society we have what some people would call it dearth

1962
01:47:11,720 --> 01:47:12,240
Speaker 3: of heroism.

1963
01:47:12,280 --> 01:47:13,040
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean none.

1964
01:47:13,080 --> 01:47:16,559
Speaker 3: I think that there's incredibly brave and courageous people doing

1965
01:47:16,560 --> 01:47:20,080
Speaker 3: amazing things. And the series I wrote back then actually

1966
01:47:20,080 --> 01:47:22,559
Speaker 3: featured that too. But the point was to say, how

1967
01:47:22,560 --> 01:47:24,320
Speaker 3: do we build this? And the build and in that

1968
01:47:24,400 --> 01:47:26,680
Speaker 3: frameworker it was through wrestling mixed martials. You have to

1969
01:47:26,720 --> 01:47:28,760
Speaker 3: teach kids that it's okay to get beat up, you

1970
01:47:28,840 --> 01:47:31,600
Speaker 3: will rebuild. It's okay to have the courage to go

1971
01:47:31,720 --> 01:47:33,800
Speaker 3: out on a mat or in practice against a kid

1972
01:47:33,800 --> 01:47:36,400
Speaker 3: who's bigger and better than you, because that is scary

1973
01:47:37,400 --> 01:47:39,920
Speaker 3: when you can do that and you learn how to suffer,

1974
01:47:40,920 --> 01:47:42,600
Speaker 3: and then somebody comes up to you at work in

1975
01:47:42,960 --> 01:47:48,000
Speaker 3: a white collar situation and they're like you should be scared.

1976
01:47:48,560 --> 01:47:49,360
Speaker 3: You're like, of what?

1977
01:47:50,880 --> 01:47:52,240
Speaker 2: Of what? It's like?

1978
01:47:52,439 --> 01:47:54,800
Speaker 3: What was the old year old enough to remember Rocky fighters?

1979
01:47:54,800 --> 01:47:58,200
Speaker 3: Like assume me for what? Because he knows how to suffer?

1980
01:47:59,280 --> 01:48:02,479
Speaker 3: And you know that's something that you know, you guys

1981
01:48:02,479 --> 01:48:05,400
Speaker 3: are obviously world class trained and how to suffer. Suffering

1982
01:48:05,479 --> 01:48:08,679
Speaker 3: is a skill. It's a theological one too, one hundred percent.

1983
01:48:08,760 --> 01:48:14,519
Speaker 3: And and when you suffer the theologically to me, I've

1984
01:48:14,600 --> 01:48:16,800
Speaker 3: learned this over the last three or four years as

1985
01:48:16,800 --> 01:48:19,479
Speaker 3: as a parent. We went through some really bad suffering

1986
01:48:19,640 --> 01:48:21,840
Speaker 3: of a really sick kid. My wife almost died in

1987
01:48:21,880 --> 01:48:26,600
Speaker 3: my arms on labor and like, like, we suffered in

1988
01:48:26,920 --> 01:48:33,040
Speaker 3: extraordinary ways that brought us to our knees and made

1989
01:48:33,120 --> 01:48:36,240
Speaker 3: us prayerful, and that helped us grow. We actually the

1990
01:48:36,320 --> 01:48:40,680
Speaker 3: suffering was the gift. And knowing how to do the

1991
01:48:40,720 --> 01:48:42,800
Speaker 3: suffering and have it be a gift and have it

1992
01:48:42,880 --> 01:48:49,679
Speaker 3: humble you towards prayerfulness and growth is like, I mean,

1993
01:48:50,080 --> 01:48:53,559
Speaker 3: that's that's how we've got not you know, don't People

1994
01:48:53,560 --> 01:48:56,240
Speaker 3: shouldn't mistake me. I'm not saying to beat people up

1995
01:48:56,520 --> 01:48:58,000
Speaker 3: because it's going to make them stronger and they're going

1996
01:48:58,040 --> 01:49:00,680
Speaker 3: to learn how to like that's this is not a

1997
01:49:00,800 --> 01:49:04,040
Speaker 3: justification for abuse and taunting or both like, but like

1998
01:49:04,120 --> 01:49:09,360
Speaker 3: we do need to allow people and kids to scrape

1999
01:49:09,400 --> 01:49:11,479
Speaker 3: their els, knees and elbows and learn how to fail,

2000
01:49:11,680 --> 01:49:13,439
Speaker 3: learn how to suffer. And this comes back to this

2001
01:49:13,520 --> 01:49:15,559
Speaker 3: DEI thing. That's right, So this is you asked me,

2002
01:49:15,600 --> 01:49:17,840
Speaker 3: what have I seen it manifest ed? Why is this

2003
01:49:18,160 --> 01:49:20,880
Speaker 3: the hill to die on that I chose to to

2004
01:49:20,880 --> 01:49:23,960
Speaker 3: to hold firm on and speak the truth about. It's

2005
01:49:23,960 --> 01:49:27,280
Speaker 3: because this has been happening, as our conversation has alluded

2006
01:49:27,320 --> 01:49:30,519
Speaker 3: for over twenty five years, and what we've seen over

2007
01:49:30,560 --> 01:49:33,720
Speaker 3: twenty five years is everything goes south. Now, there's lots

2008
01:49:33,720 --> 01:49:36,080
Speaker 3: of reasons for that, but one of these are this

2009
01:49:36,120 --> 01:49:39,080
Speaker 3: is this tracks in correspondence to that. Like you talked

2010
01:49:39,080 --> 01:49:43,120
Speaker 3: about the patents and the science discoveries that people want

2011
01:49:43,120 --> 01:49:44,280
Speaker 3: to make. Guess what we're not making a lot of

2012
01:49:44,320 --> 01:49:49,320
Speaker 3: science discoveries. Like in the academic world, there's a whole

2013
01:49:49,400 --> 01:49:51,479
Speaker 3: rabbit hole if you like going around rabbit holes of

2014
01:49:51,600 --> 01:49:55,559
Speaker 3: how broken science is. They went in business, you say

2015
01:49:55,600 --> 01:49:59,760
Speaker 3: you go woke and go broke. Well, in science they

2016
01:49:59,800 --> 01:50:03,479
Speaker 3: went it woke, but they are broke. Like science has

2017
01:50:03,479 --> 01:50:07,559
Speaker 3: a replication crisis. You can't replicate most findings. There's a

2018
01:50:07,640 --> 01:50:12,120
Speaker 3: huge fraud issue in science. So much major findings have

2019
01:50:12,160 --> 01:50:15,680
Speaker 3: been found to be fraudulent. The biggest model for Alzheimer's

2020
01:50:15,720 --> 01:50:19,160
Speaker 3: disease turned out to be fake papers that they spent

2021
01:50:19,760 --> 01:50:22,599
Speaker 3: then million, five hundred million dollars of investment into drug

2022
01:50:22,640 --> 01:50:27,439
Speaker 3: treatments based upon it was all fraudulent. And you know,

2023
01:50:28,080 --> 01:50:31,439
Speaker 3: when you're promising treatments to people whose parents can no

2024
01:50:31,520 --> 01:50:36,120
Speaker 3: longer remember them, Yeah, Like, that's a different kind of

2025
01:50:36,120 --> 01:50:44,120
Speaker 3: evil too, like and so we fund science in America

2026
01:50:44,439 --> 01:50:48,160
Speaker 3: to make explorations and discoveries. But when we're funding it

2027
01:50:49,680 --> 01:50:56,680
Speaker 3: with decisions based upon features that are not ability and

2028
01:50:56,800 --> 01:51:03,040
Speaker 3: merit and excellence and skill, then it's not going to

2029
01:51:03,120 --> 01:51:05,960
Speaker 3: be able to execute what we needed to do in

2030
01:51:06,040 --> 01:51:12,040
Speaker 3: making the discoveries that save lives and improve society. You

2031
01:51:12,120 --> 01:51:15,439
Speaker 3: may end up with something that looks like how you

2032
01:51:15,479 --> 01:51:18,280
Speaker 3: want it to look like, but it's not going to

2033
01:51:18,360 --> 01:51:21,759
Speaker 3: work like how you want it to work like. And

2034
01:51:22,600 --> 01:51:25,320
Speaker 3: you know, like it's something I think Americans have always

2035
01:51:25,320 --> 01:51:28,360
Speaker 3: held the deepest respect in regard for your communities in

2036
01:51:28,439 --> 01:51:32,240
Speaker 3: special operations because we've always assumed and believe that you

2037
01:51:32,240 --> 01:51:34,960
Speaker 3: guys are the last bastion holding the line of standard.

2038
01:51:35,680 --> 01:51:38,720
Speaker 3: I think I think we are, and and and what

2039
01:51:38,840 --> 01:51:41,200
Speaker 3: we haven't done that it would be the equivalent of like,

2040
01:51:41,720 --> 01:51:43,719
Speaker 3: you guys wouldn't be able to operate if you started

2041
01:51:43,760 --> 01:51:47,240
Speaker 3: selecting people not based on we.

2042
01:51:47,439 --> 01:51:50,400
Speaker 2: Change the standard, and and and and and.

2043
01:51:50,360 --> 01:51:53,160
Speaker 3: I know there's military conversations about that for a long time,

2044
01:51:53,200 --> 01:51:55,920
Speaker 3: about what happens in the risk thereof But I'm here

2045
01:51:56,000 --> 01:52:01,360
Speaker 3: reporting back from the front lines of education and science

2046
01:52:01,920 --> 01:52:05,120
Speaker 3: and the intellectual side of the academy that we gave

2047
01:52:05,240 --> 01:52:08,120
Speaker 3: up that fight twenty five years ago. Wow, And where

2048
01:52:08,120 --> 01:52:10,320
Speaker 3: would your community be if that fight was given up

2049
01:52:10,320 --> 01:52:12,960
Speaker 3: twenty five years ago? And that's where we're at right

2050
01:52:13,000 --> 01:52:17,520
Speaker 3: now in science and education, And so that's why it's important.

2051
01:52:17,720 --> 01:52:19,599
Speaker 3: That's why I took a stand, because if we are

2052
01:52:19,640 --> 01:52:21,400
Speaker 3: to save a nation, if we are to save our

2053
01:52:21,439 --> 01:52:25,559
Speaker 3: culture and our society so that we can educate people

2054
01:52:25,600 --> 01:52:30,200
Speaker 3: instead of indoctrinate them, then somebody has to hold the line.

2055
01:52:30,560 --> 01:52:33,160
Speaker 3: Somebody has to say the emperor doesn't have any clothes.

2056
01:52:33,560 --> 01:52:36,160
Speaker 3: Somebody has to say these are wrong things, and you're

2057
01:52:36,200 --> 01:52:40,120
Speaker 3: doing the wrong things about the wrong things. And that's

2058
01:52:40,160 --> 01:52:45,480
Speaker 3: why it's important. And I've seen it weaponized. I've experienced

2059
01:52:45,479 --> 01:52:49,720
Speaker 3: it weaponized, and we've had a weakness in leadership of

2060
01:52:49,760 --> 01:52:53,880
Speaker 3: holding those things accountable. Even now, you say, you know,

2061
01:52:54,280 --> 01:53:00,280
Speaker 3: you allow companies or universities to fix their websites, to

2062
01:53:00,360 --> 01:53:03,280
Speaker 3: fix their words, but you keep the same people in place.

2063
01:53:03,439 --> 01:53:07,360
Speaker 3: That's right, the deeds don't change. And you know, those

2064
01:53:07,360 --> 01:53:09,920
Speaker 3: are the same institutions that keep getting the funding. And

2065
01:53:09,960 --> 01:53:12,360
Speaker 3: in your world there there they accept the GI Bill

2066
01:53:12,960 --> 01:53:17,320
Speaker 3: to train leaders to take that indoctrinated philosophy and take

2067
01:53:17,320 --> 01:53:19,960
Speaker 3: it back to the military, and and and and and

2068
01:53:20,240 --> 01:53:24,880
Speaker 3: so that they can interrupt the standard bearing you know,

2069
01:53:25,880 --> 01:53:29,839
Speaker 3: selection based on a faulty indoctrination of education.

2070
01:53:30,000 --> 01:53:32,400
Speaker 2: And it matters.

2071
01:53:37,880 --> 01:53:42,840
Speaker 1: I tell you, Rick, I'm I'm blown away by not

2072
01:53:42,920 --> 01:53:46,240
Speaker 1: only your courage to have the stance that you took,

2073
01:53:47,560 --> 01:53:49,360
Speaker 1: but the way you think about it. I mean, a

2074
01:53:49,360 --> 01:53:52,479
Speaker 1: lot of people will will make stances based on a

2075
01:53:52,520 --> 01:53:55,599
Speaker 1: gut feeling they know it's wrong, and so they'll they'll

2076
01:53:56,080 --> 01:53:56,799
Speaker 1: they'll they'll.

2077
01:53:56,600 --> 01:53:57,760
Speaker 2: Wave their hand and all that.

2078
01:53:57,840 --> 01:54:02,000
Speaker 1: But you know, I think what what makes you so

2079
01:54:02,240 --> 01:54:07,160
Speaker 1: unique is that you can articulate the reason behind it

2080
01:54:07,240 --> 01:54:10,600
Speaker 1: and the importance of why it we need to do this,

2081
01:54:10,720 --> 01:54:13,000
Speaker 1: why we need to stand up for what we believe in,

2082
01:54:13,080 --> 01:54:16,519
Speaker 1: and why we you know, we have to hold the

2083
01:54:16,640 --> 01:54:21,240
Speaker 1: line of that pursuit of truth, that that integrity and

2084
01:54:22,280 --> 01:54:26,840
Speaker 1: that foundation of the things that I think societies need

2085
01:54:26,880 --> 01:54:28,800
Speaker 1: as a whole to be able to rely upon.

2086
01:54:29,200 --> 01:54:32,440
Speaker 3: Well, you know, thank you that that means a lot,

2087
01:54:32,600 --> 01:54:36,520
Speaker 3: and coming from you, I don't know that I deserve

2088
01:54:36,600 --> 01:54:40,080
Speaker 3: such kind words from from men like yourself, but it

2089
01:54:40,080 --> 01:54:42,320
Speaker 3: does mean a lot. I've always looked up and aspired

2090
01:54:42,520 --> 01:54:44,880
Speaker 3: to be everything all of you guys have always been.

2091
01:54:45,080 --> 01:54:48,600
Speaker 3: But you know, there's a real tangible connection to this.

2092
01:54:48,680 --> 01:54:52,400
Speaker 3: We talked about the Communist applications of this, of control

2093
01:54:52,560 --> 01:54:54,960
Speaker 3: of humans, control society. But like one of the people

2094
01:54:54,960 --> 01:54:59,400
Speaker 3: in that meeting was a foreigner from Europe on an

2095
01:54:59,520 --> 01:55:03,120
Speaker 3: H one P. He's actively working to indoctrinate his students

2096
01:55:03,160 --> 01:55:09,160
Speaker 3: with European communism principles like like these are not esoteric,

2097
01:55:09,200 --> 01:55:12,480
Speaker 3: the theoretical things that it happened.

2098
01:55:12,600 --> 01:55:14,680
Speaker 2: I caught it, I proved it.

2099
01:55:15,080 --> 01:55:18,480
Speaker 3: Like I have the video and those things are happening

2100
01:55:18,680 --> 01:55:21,520
Speaker 3: all over and it's it's it's I think it's a

2101
01:55:21,720 --> 01:55:25,240
Speaker 3: there's an infection and about it. I have another film

2102
01:55:25,320 --> 01:55:28,280
Speaker 3: that they're laughing. They're laughing about teaching it. They've been

2103
01:55:28,400 --> 01:55:32,360
Speaker 3: unchecked for so long and and like any any idea,

2104
01:55:32,840 --> 01:55:37,200
Speaker 3: any any infection that goes on, you know, un what

2105
01:55:37,360 --> 01:55:41,200
Speaker 3: is it undiagnosed and then treated, it just keeps growing

2106
01:55:41,240 --> 01:55:42,000
Speaker 3: and growing and growing.

2107
01:55:42,040 --> 01:55:44,320
Speaker 1: And that's the whole gist. Of communism. That's the whole

2108
01:55:44,400 --> 01:55:48,160
Speaker 1: gist of this, these radical ideologies. But you know, I

2109
01:55:48,200 --> 01:55:53,160
Speaker 1: think now we're in a place where we were, We're done.

2110
01:55:53,280 --> 01:55:57,000
Speaker 1: There's a there's enough people beginning to stand up and

2111
01:55:57,360 --> 01:55:59,880
Speaker 1: fight back and push back. And I and and you've

2112
01:56:00,080 --> 01:56:00,879
Speaker 1: in that person.

2113
01:56:01,200 --> 01:56:05,080
Speaker 3: Well, if I may, you know one thing that I

2114
01:56:05,080 --> 01:56:07,320
Speaker 3: think has happened, Like you said, they've been getting away

2115
01:56:07,360 --> 01:56:09,400
Speaker 3: with it so long because nobody said or did anything

2116
01:56:09,920 --> 01:56:13,200
Speaker 3: we had for I guess what you would say, two

2117
01:56:13,240 --> 01:56:16,760
Speaker 3: generations since the Global war and terror, our warriors were

2118
01:56:16,800 --> 01:56:19,680
Speaker 3: sent to war. Our fighters, you guys were sent to war,

2119
01:56:19,960 --> 01:56:22,480
Speaker 3: and we talked a little bit, like I felt drawn

2120
01:56:22,480 --> 01:56:24,280
Speaker 3: to it, and for whatever reason, I kept getting taken

2121
01:56:24,320 --> 01:56:26,400
Speaker 3: at so like I'm kind of a weirdo in the

2122
01:56:26,480 --> 01:56:30,000
Speaker 3: academic culture because like I'm actually a trained fighter in

2123
01:56:30,080 --> 01:56:34,360
Speaker 3: wrestling and hand to hand, Like I'm used to being comfortable,

2124
01:56:34,480 --> 01:56:39,440
Speaker 3: being uncomfortable, being suffering, suffering being in a contentious, combative

2125
01:56:40,080 --> 01:56:43,080
Speaker 3: scenario and being comfortable there if necessary.

2126
01:56:44,040 --> 01:56:45,400
Speaker 2: But that's not usual.

2127
01:56:46,880 --> 01:56:49,240
Speaker 3: Our generations, they said, all of the people taught all

2128
01:56:49,320 --> 01:56:52,240
Speaker 3: you guys how to fight, and we gave away the

2129
01:56:52,280 --> 01:56:56,760
Speaker 3: ship domestically. And in twenty sixteen, Most people don't know this,

2130
01:56:56,840 --> 01:57:01,480
Speaker 3: but I remember watching it because at the presidential nominating

2131
01:57:01,880 --> 01:57:04,840
Speaker 3: R and C convention, I think it was It wasn't

2132
01:57:05,080 --> 01:57:08,160
Speaker 3: It was Marcus who gave a speech. And people don't

2133
01:57:08,200 --> 01:57:11,040
Speaker 3: remember probably Marcus's speech, but I remember it because I

2134
01:57:11,080 --> 01:57:13,680
Speaker 3: remember and he said he came back from war, but

2135
01:57:13,840 --> 01:57:16,520
Speaker 3: he realized that the actual battlefront here is domestically on

2136
01:57:16,800 --> 01:57:19,520
Speaker 3: the front of our culture and society. And he was

2137
01:57:19,600 --> 01:57:22,240
Speaker 3: not wrong. He was absolutely right. We are now seeing

2138
01:57:22,240 --> 01:57:27,040
Speaker 3: that manifest and you know, I think that people are

2139
01:57:27,040 --> 01:57:30,280
Speaker 3: starting to answer the call, but they're they're doing that

2140
01:57:30,360 --> 01:57:32,760
Speaker 3: because of the inspiration and the guidance people like you.

2141
01:57:32,880 --> 01:57:37,520
Speaker 3: So like you know, I came across your your videos

2142
01:57:37,600 --> 01:57:41,560
Speaker 3: in like twenty fourteen, and they were so good and

2143
01:57:42,120 --> 01:57:47,760
Speaker 3: about motivating young young men and people to have integrity,

2144
01:57:48,640 --> 01:57:53,640
Speaker 3: to live a life of virtue and to hold the

2145
01:57:53,680 --> 01:57:57,280
Speaker 3: line of your standards of integrity. And and I came

2146
01:57:57,320 --> 01:57:59,880
Speaker 3: from I was trained by programmers that built Olympians and

2147
01:58:00,640 --> 01:58:05,800
Speaker 3: really high level elite coaches. And when I saw what

2148
01:58:05,840 --> 01:58:09,200
Speaker 3: you were saying, I didn't didn't know much about your background,

2149
01:58:09,640 --> 01:58:12,040
Speaker 3: but it instantly resonated, like this is an elite level

2150
01:58:12,960 --> 01:58:17,320
Speaker 3: person training people for free on YouTube through your frog

2151
01:58:17,400 --> 01:58:21,120
Speaker 3: Logic program, and it was right, and what you're doing matters,

2152
01:58:21,200 --> 01:58:24,920
Speaker 3: and it leaves a very big impact where like whatever,

2153
01:58:24,960 --> 01:58:30,680
Speaker 3: it's been eleven years now, you know, I can meet

2154
01:58:30,720 --> 01:58:34,360
Speaker 3: you today and be like, hey, you actually impacted that.

2155
01:58:35,080 --> 01:58:37,520
Speaker 2: I appreciate that, Rick. It means the world, you know.

2156
01:58:37,600 --> 01:58:42,440
Speaker 1: I think the whole gist is, you know, I learned

2157
01:58:42,480 --> 01:58:47,840
Speaker 1: pretty early on that the suffering is the pathway to salvation.

2158
01:58:48,560 --> 01:58:50,680
Speaker 1: And so how do you teach people that, you know,

2159
01:58:50,720 --> 01:58:54,200
Speaker 1: how do you say, hey, guess what you're gonna If

2160
01:58:54,200 --> 01:58:56,560
Speaker 1: you want to become the person you want to become,

2161
01:58:56,800 --> 01:59:00,000
Speaker 1: you have to go seek out the suffering, the pain,

2162
01:59:00,040 --> 01:59:03,360
Speaker 1: and it's part. It's imbaute, it's impart imbued in life regardless.

2163
01:59:03,400 --> 01:59:07,280
Speaker 1: I mean, you're a product of you know, that imbued suffering.

2164
01:59:07,360 --> 01:59:08,880
Speaker 1: It takes courage to seek out the suffering.

2165
01:59:08,960 --> 01:59:09,320
Speaker 2: That's right.

2166
01:59:09,360 --> 01:59:12,480
Speaker 1: It's scary, that's right, especially if you've been indoctrinated in

2167
01:59:12,520 --> 01:59:15,480
Speaker 1: it as early as childhood, where you like, man, I

2168
01:59:15,480 --> 01:59:17,640
Speaker 1: don't want any of that anymore from my whole life.

2169
01:59:18,000 --> 01:59:21,880
Speaker 1: And then you you figure out the mechanisms to deflect

2170
01:59:22,160 --> 01:59:26,839
Speaker 1: or defend, or to ignore, or to reroute or whatever

2171
01:59:27,000 --> 01:59:31,320
Speaker 1: away from it because it was so intense whatever these periods,

2172
01:59:31,360 --> 01:59:33,320
Speaker 1: whether you were a kid or whether you went through

2173
01:59:33,360 --> 01:59:36,440
Speaker 1: trauma as an adult or went to combat or whatever

2174
01:59:36,520 --> 01:59:40,200
Speaker 1: it is, or had to be a whistleblower. You like,

2175
01:59:40,920 --> 01:59:46,160
Speaker 1: it's so it's so impactful, it's so uh what is?

2176
01:59:46,240 --> 01:59:47,640
Speaker 1: It fractures us?

2177
01:59:47,720 --> 01:59:47,880
Speaker 4: Right?

2178
01:59:47,920 --> 01:59:53,520
Speaker 1: It fractures I think it fractures us to our core

2179
01:59:53,760 --> 01:59:57,040
Speaker 1: to where we really have to believe is our foundation

2180
01:59:57,200 --> 01:59:59,800
Speaker 1: going to hold up under this this this on this

2181
02:00:00,040 --> 02:00:04,640
Speaker 1: anvil rights as we're getting waylaid and and that's what

2182
02:00:04,720 --> 02:00:08,320
Speaker 1: I always have been trying to do. And let me

2183
02:00:08,320 --> 02:00:10,640
Speaker 1: ask you this, and this is something like, I I

2184
02:00:11,120 --> 02:00:16,200
Speaker 1: know that you have left the university and you're you know,

2185
02:00:16,440 --> 02:00:18,920
Speaker 1: I think what was just blew me away is at

2186
02:00:18,920 --> 02:00:23,600
Speaker 1: your mowing lawns for uh? In you know, in the meantime,

2187
02:00:23,760 --> 02:00:26,160
Speaker 1: what would be the thing that you would want to

2188
02:00:26,200 --> 02:00:28,760
Speaker 1: do most right now? Like, what what would be the

2189
02:00:28,800 --> 02:00:33,040
Speaker 1: perfect scenario to go back into academia, to go back

2190
02:00:33,120 --> 02:00:35,800
Speaker 1: to work, maybe to work for you know, a starship,

2191
02:00:36,240 --> 02:00:39,680
Speaker 1: to work at a at a for an athletic department

2192
02:00:39,800 --> 02:00:44,200
Speaker 1: during neuroscience research on the modern athlete. I mean, what

2193
02:00:44,240 --> 02:00:47,760
Speaker 1: would be the perfect thing for you that would give

2194
02:00:47,800 --> 02:00:50,240
Speaker 1: you that sense of meaning, that sense of purpose and

2195
02:00:50,320 --> 02:00:52,680
Speaker 1: meaning that all of this is worth it.

2196
02:00:53,560 --> 02:00:55,640
Speaker 3: Man, that is such a good question. I don't know

2197
02:00:55,680 --> 02:00:57,520
Speaker 3: that I even have a great answer, because it's been

2198
02:00:57,520 --> 02:01:01,880
Speaker 3: such a whirlwind. It's like, it's like I just ended

2199
02:01:01,880 --> 02:01:06,560
Speaker 3: a twenty five year trajectory on a dime, and I'm

2200
02:01:06,600 --> 02:01:09,120
Speaker 3: trying to turn a cruise ship or an aircraft carrier

2201
02:01:09,120 --> 02:01:11,120
Speaker 3: around in a moment like there's it's been such a

2202
02:01:11,120 --> 02:01:15,160
Speaker 3: whirlwind in such choppy waters, and I haven't had time

2203
02:01:15,200 --> 02:01:19,240
Speaker 3: to really like decompress and unpack what's next or what

2204
02:01:19,560 --> 02:01:22,919
Speaker 3: I mean. I'm the kind of person that is interesting.

2205
02:01:23,120 --> 02:01:25,400
Speaker 3: I'm capable for lots of pretty much all those things

2206
02:01:25,440 --> 02:01:27,760
Speaker 3: I've you know, I've I have a small couple of

2207
02:01:27,760 --> 02:01:30,640
Speaker 3: small LLC companies. I actually started one called Space Psychology,

2208
02:01:30,720 --> 02:01:33,480
Speaker 3: where I actually want to do the kind of psychological

2209
02:01:33,680 --> 02:01:35,800
Speaker 3: work that we were doing that we were talking about

2210
02:01:35,800 --> 02:01:40,680
Speaker 3: in our conversations and take to towards these commercial and

2211
02:01:40,800 --> 02:01:44,240
Speaker 3: NASA space based applications. Because of my experience being both

2212
02:01:44,240 --> 02:01:46,840
Speaker 3: a crew member and a principal investigator of these missions,

2213
02:01:46,840 --> 02:01:49,360
Speaker 3: studying astronaut cognition, one of the things I got to

2214
02:01:49,360 --> 02:01:53,200
Speaker 3: see is that like there is we are an embryonic

2215
02:01:53,360 --> 02:01:59,040
Speaker 3: level of understanding those things at NASA for psychological Exploration,

2216
02:01:59,120 --> 02:02:01,920
Speaker 3: long duration space. And I think we can do it

2217
02:02:01,960 --> 02:02:04,680
Speaker 3: better than what can sometimes be shackled by in the

2218
02:02:04,760 --> 02:02:08,640
Speaker 3: in the government like NASA system, right, And I I

2219
02:02:08,680 --> 02:02:12,280
Speaker 3: want to say I was talking with one of the

2220
02:02:12,320 --> 02:02:17,320
Speaker 3: astronauts at the Astronaut Memorial for Columbia and Challenger Explosions

2221
02:02:17,760 --> 02:02:22,240
Speaker 3: this past January and explained in this idea and said, hey,

2222
02:02:22,280 --> 02:02:24,520
Speaker 3: I kind of I like to build this out. You know,

2223
02:02:24,600 --> 02:02:26,640
Speaker 3: do you think it resonates with you know, your time

2224
02:02:26,680 --> 02:02:30,040
Speaker 3: on the ISS and isolation confinement and the challenges there is.

2225
02:02:30,840 --> 02:02:33,720
Speaker 3: He's a military guy too, and and he said, you

2226
02:02:33,800 --> 02:02:37,400
Speaker 3: know we don't d O D had a much better

2227
02:02:37,440 --> 02:02:40,080
Speaker 3: system in place than NASA does coming back from deployment.

2228
02:02:40,480 --> 02:02:43,320
Speaker 3: They have a better build out for bringing people back

2229
02:02:43,360 --> 02:02:46,440
Speaker 3: and transitioning. She said, it's still also still pretty bad.

2230
02:02:46,960 --> 02:02:47,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2231
02:02:47,200 --> 02:02:49,240
Speaker 3: He's like NASA's like you come home and they're like

2232
02:02:49,520 --> 02:02:52,800
Speaker 3: see you, thanks, Yeah, great job. Now you got to answer,

2233
02:02:52,800 --> 02:02:54,560
Speaker 3: but you got to go do all the kids elementary schools.

2234
02:02:54,560 --> 02:02:56,880
Speaker 3: You don't get a rest, You don't everybody wants it

2235
02:02:56,920 --> 02:02:59,520
Speaker 3: because you're a celebrity, everybody you know, you get to

2236
02:02:59,560 --> 02:03:03,720
Speaker 3: do it again. I talked with a French astronaut at

2237
02:03:03,720 --> 02:03:07,680
Speaker 3: one of these missions and he said that, he said,

2238
02:03:07,840 --> 02:03:10,560
Speaker 3: you spend four years training with someone with a team,

2239
02:03:11,320 --> 02:03:13,120
Speaker 3: you go and you do this mission for eight months.

2240
02:03:13,560 --> 02:03:16,560
Speaker 3: It's immensely bonding. I mean, you're forged, like any of

2241
02:03:16,560 --> 02:03:18,560
Speaker 3: your teams would you have forged, I'm.

2242
02:03:18,400 --> 02:03:19,200
Speaker 2: Sure you know.

2243
02:03:19,840 --> 02:03:21,760
Speaker 3: And you come home and as soon as you land

2244
02:03:21,800 --> 02:03:26,760
Speaker 3: in Kazakhstan at that point, every country of your team

2245
02:03:27,760 --> 02:03:33,160
Speaker 3: has a team of people, a truck, in a helicopter basically,

2246
02:03:33,160 --> 02:03:35,080
Speaker 3: and as soon as you're landing, you go to the

2247
02:03:35,200 --> 02:03:38,560
Speaker 3: four opposite corners of the Earth and you stop talking,

2248
02:03:39,680 --> 02:03:41,040
Speaker 3: like you text for here and there. But he's like,

2249
02:03:41,360 --> 02:03:44,880
Speaker 3: but at that moment you the breakup. He's like, and

2250
02:03:44,920 --> 02:03:46,720
Speaker 3: he's like, I was there. I was in space for

2251
02:03:46,760 --> 02:03:48,760
Speaker 3: eight months or whatever it was. And he's like, then

2252
02:03:48,760 --> 02:03:52,840
Speaker 3: I come home and like two days later, I'm stuck

2253
02:03:52,880 --> 02:03:55,840
Speaker 3: in traffic in the circle in Paris trying to go

2254
02:03:56,200 --> 02:04:00,080
Speaker 3: get to the President to receive a medal and I

2255
02:04:00,120 --> 02:04:03,040
Speaker 3: can't get out of traffic, and he's like this, He's like,

2256
02:04:03,120 --> 02:04:05,240
Speaker 3: it was just so surreal, and everybody wants a piece

2257
02:04:05,240 --> 02:04:06,920
Speaker 3: of you and all you needed, all you want to

2258
02:04:06,920 --> 02:04:10,080
Speaker 3: do is rest. That's so decompress and so like that's

2259
02:04:10,160 --> 02:04:11,920
Speaker 3: kind of my answer right now, like like like I

2260
02:04:12,600 --> 02:04:14,360
Speaker 3: I would do all those things. I'm interested in a

2261
02:04:14,360 --> 02:04:19,440
Speaker 3: lot of them. But I think you know, like, yeah,

2262
02:04:19,520 --> 02:04:20,720
Speaker 3: I do have a question for you.

2263
02:04:20,840 --> 02:04:22,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, well let me real quick.

2264
02:04:22,840 --> 02:04:26,600
Speaker 1: If you're listening to this and you have listened to

2265
02:04:26,640 --> 02:04:30,320
Speaker 1: what Rick is about and something pops in your head

2266
02:04:30,400 --> 02:04:35,560
Speaker 1: for your program, your school, your science, your evaluation, whatever

2267
02:04:35,600 --> 02:04:39,040
Speaker 1: it might be, make sure you get we're going to

2268
02:04:39,120 --> 02:04:43,360
Speaker 1: put out all of his contact information and reach out

2269
02:04:43,400 --> 02:04:49,040
Speaker 1: to him because you should have an overwhelming response. I'm

2270
02:04:49,080 --> 02:04:53,200
Speaker 1: praying and that opportunities come to your door because not

2271
02:04:53,320 --> 02:04:57,440
Speaker 1: only have you shown your intelligence here and in every

2272
02:04:57,480 --> 02:05:00,640
Speaker 1: aspect of your career, but your integrity most And I

2273
02:05:00,640 --> 02:05:04,320
Speaker 1: think that's the key because putting all that together, that

2274
02:05:04,400 --> 02:05:06,840
Speaker 1: doesn't always happen. And I and I think that's the

2275
02:05:06,920 --> 02:05:08,320
Speaker 1: wrestler in you for sure.

2276
02:05:08,880 --> 02:05:09,200
Speaker 2: Thank you.

2277
02:05:09,280 --> 02:05:11,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you know, maybe that's a way to bookend.

2278
02:05:11,600 --> 02:05:14,560
Speaker 3: That answer for you too is like you know, I've

2279
02:05:14,560 --> 02:05:18,000
Speaker 3: talked with some other friends about similar things, and you

2280
02:05:18,000 --> 02:05:21,520
Speaker 3: know what they've said, is that what what businesses look

2281
02:05:21,600 --> 02:05:24,040
Speaker 3: for or need most is moral leadership. So in terms

2282
02:05:24,080 --> 02:05:26,920
Speaker 3: of leadership, that's something that I would want to bring

2283
02:05:27,040 --> 02:05:31,560
Speaker 3: is more leadership to you know, as a culture, our

2284
02:05:31,640 --> 02:05:34,440
Speaker 3: ships are not doing well. Are where we have a

2285
02:05:34,480 --> 02:05:35,200
Speaker 3: lot of rats.

2286
02:05:34,960 --> 02:05:35,400
Speaker 2: On the ship.

2287
02:05:35,440 --> 02:05:37,920
Speaker 3: We need to we need to make things ship shape again.

2288
02:05:38,560 --> 02:05:41,960
Speaker 3: And and that stems with moral leadership. And that's something

2289
02:05:41,960 --> 02:05:43,720
Speaker 3: that I want to bring forward to wherever we go

2290
02:05:43,800 --> 02:05:46,880
Speaker 3: because I'm committed to putting our future, our kids on

2291
02:05:46,920 --> 02:05:49,840
Speaker 3: the right pathway forward and building this not out for us,

2292
02:05:49,880 --> 02:05:53,640
Speaker 3: but for them to inherit what we have become stewards

2293
02:05:53,640 --> 02:05:56,840
Speaker 3: of and and and so you know, I hope to

2294
02:05:57,440 --> 02:06:00,640
Speaker 3: make a good contribution to any place I know and

2295
02:06:00,760 --> 02:06:04,640
Speaker 3: do the right thing because it does it is important

2296
02:06:04,800 --> 02:06:13,240
Speaker 3: and you know so and we've seen that, like I've

2297
02:06:13,240 --> 02:06:16,960
Speaker 3: seen the education system fail at producing it great inflation,

2298
02:06:17,040 --> 02:06:20,200
Speaker 3: pushing people through. I've seen students who struggle with reading, writing,

2299
02:06:20,240 --> 02:06:22,480
Speaker 3: math in college.

2300
02:06:22,720 --> 02:06:24,040
Speaker 2: And we're going to write that ship.

2301
02:06:24,840 --> 02:06:27,320
Speaker 3: I've been committed to it and still committed to it,

2302
02:06:27,520 --> 02:06:29,920
Speaker 3: and we're going to make sure that we do everything

2303
02:06:29,960 --> 02:06:31,720
Speaker 3: we can to do things in.

2304
02:06:31,640 --> 02:06:32,520
Speaker 2: The right way. Wow.

2305
02:06:32,920 --> 02:06:35,520
Speaker 3: So when when I would watch a lot of your shows,

2306
02:06:35,520 --> 02:06:38,839
Speaker 3: you talk a lot about the negative insurgency, So I'm curious,

2307
02:06:38,880 --> 02:06:43,240
Speaker 3: like where that came from for you, and you know,

2308
02:06:43,280 --> 02:06:45,760
Speaker 3: how did you conceptualize that? Because one of the things

2309
02:06:45,800 --> 02:06:48,800
Speaker 3: that when I first came across your frog Lodger program

2310
02:06:49,160 --> 02:06:51,840
Speaker 3: years ago, I was already a professional neuroscientist. I was

2311
02:06:51,920 --> 02:06:54,360
Speaker 3: doing a post doc, and like, when you're talking about

2312
02:06:54,360 --> 02:06:59,480
Speaker 3: positive and negative insurgencies as you framed them, the brain

2313
02:06:59,600 --> 02:07:04,000
Speaker 3: has positive and negatively charged ions that will make cells

2314
02:07:04,040 --> 02:07:06,440
Speaker 3: fire or not fire, and it's not a good or

2315
02:07:06,480 --> 02:07:08,800
Speaker 3: a bad thing in that respect. So sometimes you want

2316
02:07:08,800 --> 02:07:12,080
Speaker 3: to inhibit cells or brain areas from firing because they're

2317
02:07:12,120 --> 02:07:14,400
Speaker 3: going to make you do something you shouldn't do. So

2318
02:07:14,400 --> 02:07:17,040
Speaker 3: so like think of like Tourette's is a problem where

2319
02:07:17,400 --> 02:07:20,440
Speaker 3: that inhibition is gone, and so you need the negative

2320
02:07:20,560 --> 02:07:22,000
Speaker 3: balance with the positive.

2321
02:07:22,240 --> 02:07:23,640
Speaker 2: I know that's not exactly.

2322
02:07:23,280 --> 02:07:27,360
Speaker 3: The way you you frame the insurgency with, but like,

2323
02:07:27,560 --> 02:07:29,880
Speaker 3: where did that come from and how did you tap

2324
02:07:29,920 --> 02:07:33,960
Speaker 3: into applying that with like the brain based integration of

2325
02:07:34,720 --> 02:07:37,760
Speaker 3: you know, all your mentoring and leadership stuff that you're

2326
02:07:37,880 --> 02:07:38,480
Speaker 3: doing well.

2327
02:07:38,520 --> 02:07:42,880
Speaker 1: I I the biggest thing for me was it was

2328
02:07:45,720 --> 02:07:49,400
Speaker 1: the fear that was always present and I And I

2329
02:07:49,440 --> 02:07:54,080
Speaker 1: remember when I when I left the agency, the number one,

2330
02:07:54,200 --> 02:07:56,720
Speaker 1: one of the number one questions you'd get was were

2331
02:07:56,720 --> 02:07:57,200
Speaker 1: you afraid?

2332
02:07:57,280 --> 02:07:57,919
Speaker 2: In training?

2333
02:07:58,680 --> 02:08:01,480
Speaker 1: And I was like, you know, it's such a personal question,

2334
02:08:01,600 --> 02:08:03,440
Speaker 1: and I you know, I was kind of a snapperhead,

2335
02:08:03,440 --> 02:08:05,800
Speaker 1: and I was just like, well, you know, I'd make

2336
02:08:05,880 --> 02:08:08,840
Speaker 1: some stupid you know, well, we're you know, have you

2337
02:08:08,880 --> 02:08:11,080
Speaker 1: ever had a three hundred pound boat on your head,

2338
02:08:11,360 --> 02:08:15,160
Speaker 1: immersed in freezing cold water, you know, running two hundred

2339
02:08:15,200 --> 02:08:18,240
Speaker 1: miles with you know, ninety six straight hours you're up

2340
02:08:18,360 --> 02:08:21,360
Speaker 1: to out four hours of sleep in a full week,

2341
02:08:21,440 --> 02:08:22,600
Speaker 1: you know, And they'd be like no, And I go,

2342
02:08:22,680 --> 02:08:25,440
Speaker 1: you'd you'd be afraid too, you know, And and it's

2343
02:08:25,480 --> 02:08:28,680
Speaker 1: like that's how I would push back similar questions about combat.

2344
02:08:28,720 --> 02:08:32,240
Speaker 1: But then then someone asked me for real, like, you know,

2345
02:08:33,440 --> 02:08:35,800
Speaker 1: how if you were so afraid, how'd you do it?

2346
02:08:36,440 --> 02:08:38,400
Speaker 2: And I didn't know the answer to that.

2347
02:08:38,960 --> 02:08:42,320
Speaker 1: And so that began this this going down this road

2348
02:08:42,360 --> 02:08:47,800
Speaker 1: to understand where fear comes from and where it originates.

2349
02:08:47,240 --> 02:08:49,520
Speaker 2: And how we're taught it and how we cultivate it.

2350
02:08:49,560 --> 02:08:52,120
Speaker 1: And so I mean, you know, the first place you

2351
02:08:52,560 --> 02:08:55,360
Speaker 1: start is fight or flight, and then you understand the

2352
02:08:55,360 --> 02:08:58,400
Speaker 1: Olympics system and how the amigdala's work and how the

2353
02:08:58,440 --> 02:09:01,480
Speaker 1: Hippo campus works, and and then so then I read

2354
02:09:01,560 --> 02:09:04,920
Speaker 1: I found a book on positive neuroscience and that was

2355
02:09:05,080 --> 02:09:07,840
Speaker 1: by Martin Seligman, and that one was a massive flip

2356
02:09:07,880 --> 02:09:11,240
Speaker 1: for me because I was like, like, exactly what you said.

2357
02:09:11,840 --> 02:09:16,520
Speaker 1: There is a positive and negative electrical you know thing

2358
02:09:16,680 --> 02:09:19,960
Speaker 1: taking place. And when you understand, you know how our

2359
02:09:20,000 --> 02:09:23,520
Speaker 1: hormones and our stress hormones work, and you know that war,

2360
02:09:23,800 --> 02:09:28,840
Speaker 1: that war that's taking place between those in your limbics system, right.

2361
02:09:28,880 --> 02:09:31,680
Speaker 1: And then the big one was, oh, your amiglos actually

2362
02:09:31,720 --> 02:09:34,240
Speaker 1: can generate positive emotion as well too.

2363
02:09:34,720 --> 02:09:34,920
Speaker 2: You know.

2364
02:09:35,480 --> 02:09:38,920
Speaker 1: The case study was like you go to a concert

2365
02:09:39,200 --> 02:09:42,800
Speaker 1: and there's sixty five thousand people, Like I just took

2366
02:09:42,880 --> 02:09:45,800
Speaker 1: my family. We're up to New York over the summer,

2367
02:09:45,840 --> 02:09:48,600
Speaker 1: and we went and saw Zach Bryant and at the

2368
02:09:48,680 --> 02:09:51,720
Speaker 1: end he sings this song called Revival and it's like

2369
02:09:51,760 --> 02:09:55,400
Speaker 1: a twenty minute song and there were sixty thousand people

2370
02:09:55,560 --> 02:09:58,760
Speaker 1: singing this and I'm looking at my children, you know,

2371
02:09:58,880 --> 02:10:03,200
Speaker 1: from twelve the seventeen, and then I'm looking at people

2372
02:10:03,240 --> 02:10:10,000
Speaker 1: in their sixties screaming the song females, males, you know,

2373
02:10:10,160 --> 02:10:15,400
Speaker 1: different races, different genders, different cultural backgrounds, and the same

2374
02:10:16,080 --> 02:10:18,360
Speaker 1: energy is being exuded.

2375
02:10:19,040 --> 02:10:20,240
Speaker 2: And so I'm like whoa.

2376
02:10:20,320 --> 02:10:23,960
Speaker 1: And then I thought back to the suffering and the

2377
02:10:24,000 --> 02:10:28,640
Speaker 1: pain of combat and how that affects everybody. There's a

2378
02:10:28,920 --> 02:10:32,080
Speaker 1: it kind of it is. It's the energy that infuses

2379
02:10:32,120 --> 02:10:34,800
Speaker 1: into us and the sorrow or pain or whatever.

2380
02:10:34,880 --> 02:10:36,240
Speaker 2: And I'm like, whoa.

2381
02:10:36,280 --> 02:10:41,000
Speaker 1: Okay, so there's there's it's a it's really, I think,

2382
02:10:43,560 --> 02:10:46,560
Speaker 1: an idea of perception. And that's why I like fast

2383
02:10:46,600 --> 02:10:49,760
Speaker 1: forward Jordan Peterson. When I when I had gotten canceled

2384
02:10:49,800 --> 02:10:53,640
Speaker 1: off the internet, canceled and you know, lost everything, lost

2385
02:10:53,680 --> 02:10:56,320
Speaker 1: my business from COVID, everything, I'd lost it all. I

2386
02:10:56,440 --> 02:10:59,640
Speaker 1: found this lectury Gifts called Restructuring Your Perceptions Part two,

2387
02:10:59,880 --> 02:11:03,000
Speaker 1: and the way he deconstructs it and then builds it

2388
02:11:03,040 --> 02:11:07,520
Speaker 1: back up right from from you know, the nature of

2389
02:11:08,240 --> 02:11:11,400
Speaker 1: of writing a book, right, Well, I'm not you know,

2390
02:11:11,440 --> 02:11:14,080
Speaker 1: I start at well, I'm going to punch a key,

2391
02:11:14,640 --> 02:11:17,040
Speaker 1: and then I'm going to punch multiple keys, and I'm

2392
02:11:17,040 --> 02:11:19,320
Speaker 1: going to connect those keys into a word. Then I'm

2393
02:11:19,320 --> 02:11:21,360
Speaker 1: going to put these words into a phrase, and then

2394
02:11:21,360 --> 02:11:23,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to put these phrase in a paragraph and

2395
02:11:23,120 --> 02:11:26,120
Speaker 1: hopefully that paragraphs make sense. Well, what's the intention behind

2396
02:11:26,120 --> 02:11:28,000
Speaker 1: a paragraph? What are you going to teach? And so

2397
02:11:28,120 --> 02:11:32,560
Speaker 1: these these perceptions of each step, each phase, each concept,

2398
02:11:33,240 --> 02:11:36,280
Speaker 1: and so you build on those, right and and the

2399
02:11:36,280 --> 02:11:40,280
Speaker 1: more ambitious that you want to be becoming a navy seal,

2400
02:11:40,960 --> 02:11:45,000
Speaker 1: the more you have to have, you know, a focused uh,

2401
02:11:49,520 --> 02:11:54,240
Speaker 1: conviction towards the steps it takes to get there. Well,

2402
02:11:54,320 --> 02:11:57,760
Speaker 1: each step is riddled in pain and fear. And so

2403
02:11:58,000 --> 02:12:03,200
Speaker 1: if I allowed my if my perceptions off, then I'm

2404
02:12:03,320 --> 02:12:07,240
Speaker 1: never going to get to reach the pinnacle of the ambition, right,

2405
02:12:07,760 --> 02:12:10,040
Speaker 1: And so I'm I'm putting all this together, and then

2406
02:12:10,040 --> 02:12:12,440
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I start understanding how how we

2407
02:12:12,520 --> 02:12:16,680
Speaker 1: teach fear, How it's built into almost every fabric of

2408
02:12:17,280 --> 02:12:23,320
Speaker 1: every phase of your life, right from uh, the immediacy

2409
02:12:23,320 --> 02:12:27,720
Speaker 1: of physical fear. Don't touch the hot stove, don't cross

2410
02:12:27,760 --> 02:12:30,440
Speaker 1: the street without looking, don't go up next to that

2411
02:12:30,760 --> 02:12:33,240
Speaker 1: that bad guy, all the way to the point, Well,

2412
02:12:33,360 --> 02:12:35,920
Speaker 1: if you don't accomplish this, you're not going to be

2413
02:12:35,960 --> 02:12:39,440
Speaker 1: accepted into society if you don't, you know, And so.

2414
02:12:39,480 --> 02:12:42,400
Speaker 3: Now here's a crazy thing. It's a fucking crazy thing.

2415
02:12:42,480 --> 02:12:42,720
Speaker 1: Right.

2416
02:12:43,400 --> 02:12:43,920
Speaker 2: So I.

2417
02:12:45,560 --> 02:12:50,120
Speaker 1: Get after like two years of this and I'm like, yeah,

2418
02:12:50,120 --> 02:12:55,120
Speaker 1: but none of what I was figuring out gave me

2419
02:12:55,200 --> 02:12:56,000
Speaker 1: the answer of.

2420
02:12:58,360 --> 02:12:59,800
Speaker 2: The unknown realities.

2421
02:12:59,840 --> 02:13:02,200
Speaker 1: How it just hits you when you when you don't

2422
02:13:02,320 --> 02:13:05,000
Speaker 1: like you don't even you'd be one minute you're good,

2423
02:13:05,200 --> 02:13:09,680
Speaker 1: and then some little thing getting pinned on a mat

2424
02:13:09,920 --> 02:13:14,720
Speaker 1: can destroy a whole season. One one submission or one

2425
02:13:15,040 --> 02:13:21,080
Speaker 1: mistake can spiral the entirety of this pathway you're on.

2426
02:13:21,920 --> 02:13:27,200
Speaker 1: Why is it so profound? And I immediately correlated it

2427
02:13:27,240 --> 02:13:29,400
Speaker 1: because guys were starting to commit suicide.

2428
02:13:29,760 --> 02:13:31,920
Speaker 2: It started to pick up and meanwhile.

2429
02:13:31,520 --> 02:13:35,920
Speaker 1: These are the most impressive, hard human beings I've ever

2430
02:13:35,960 --> 02:13:40,320
Speaker 1: known in my life, but they're spiraling out what's going on.

2431
02:13:41,200 --> 02:13:43,920
Speaker 2: And it became these invisible.

2432
02:13:43,840 --> 02:13:47,760
Speaker 1: Battles that nobody and if you talk about that isolation,

2433
02:13:47,840 --> 02:13:49,800
Speaker 1: it's the invisible battles that emerge.

2434
02:13:50,000 --> 02:13:50,960
Speaker 2: And it starts right.

2435
02:13:51,080 --> 02:13:54,880
Speaker 1: It starts as the whisper or the scratch right, or

2436
02:13:54,960 --> 02:13:58,160
Speaker 1: starts as the itch, or it starts as the doubt.

2437
02:13:58,240 --> 02:14:00,920
Speaker 1: And those are the insurgencies, and those were the people

2438
02:14:00,960 --> 02:14:04,280
Speaker 1: we were fighting. They weren't the army in front of you.

2439
02:14:04,360 --> 02:14:07,680
Speaker 1: It wasn't toe to toe because you can rationalize toe

2440
02:14:07,720 --> 02:14:10,720
Speaker 1: to toe, right, you can generate that's the lift off

2441
02:14:10,960 --> 02:14:14,400
Speaker 1: that's going to mars Is is the toe to toe fight.

2442
02:14:15,000 --> 02:14:17,520
Speaker 2: But it's it's it's, hey, well, you.

2443
02:14:17,600 --> 02:14:19,640
Speaker 1: Got to get back in the fight every day for

2444
02:14:19,720 --> 02:14:22,960
Speaker 1: three years, and that's what ends up breaking.

2445
02:14:23,080 --> 02:14:23,840
Speaker 2: It's the it's.

2446
02:14:23,680 --> 02:14:26,320
Speaker 3: Fighting another person is the easiest thing in the world.

2447
02:14:26,280 --> 02:14:30,120
Speaker 3: And fighting yourself like wrestling and fighting yourself, that's the

2448
02:14:30,200 --> 02:14:35,000
Speaker 3: ultimate opponent. And and that's the real battle. And you know,

2449
02:14:35,360 --> 02:14:37,400
Speaker 3: so it resonated with me when I was I was

2450
02:14:37,440 --> 02:14:40,200
Speaker 3: hearing you share a lot of that both online and

2451
02:14:40,200 --> 02:14:44,440
Speaker 3: then again here. You know, fear is so powerful. I've

2452
02:14:44,560 --> 02:14:48,440
Speaker 3: I've I've heard it in two different ways, Like I've

2453
02:14:49,600 --> 02:14:51,760
Speaker 3: I had friends who were test pilots at Edwards and

2454
02:14:51,760 --> 02:14:54,040
Speaker 3: they would say, for a while, it's part of the

2455
02:14:55,040 --> 02:14:57,040
Speaker 3: sort of maximum is like guys wouldn't want to go

2456
02:14:57,160 --> 02:15:01,560
Speaker 3: up and fly with people who weren't married with kids

2457
02:15:03,240 --> 02:15:06,200
Speaker 3: because it changes your risk calibration, right, and and it

2458
02:15:06,320 --> 02:15:12,000
Speaker 3: makes you take it makes you more governable by fear,

2459
02:15:12,000 --> 02:15:13,560
Speaker 3: because fear is a helpful thing and a good thing too.

2460
02:15:13,560 --> 02:15:15,720
Speaker 3: That's right, you know, you know, just like I'm sure

2461
02:15:16,600 --> 02:15:22,080
Speaker 3: you there's probably exceptions to this too, right, but like,

2462
02:15:22,720 --> 02:15:25,360
Speaker 3: it's probably nice to go out on patrol with people

2463
02:15:25,400 --> 02:15:26,760
Speaker 3: who have a family that want.

2464
02:15:26,560 --> 02:15:28,560
Speaker 2: Them home one hundred percent more.

2465
02:15:28,880 --> 02:15:31,640
Speaker 1: They're more focused, they're more acutely aware, they're paying better,

2466
02:15:32,120 --> 02:15:34,160
Speaker 1: are going to take They take different risk profiles.

2467
02:15:34,720 --> 02:15:37,000
Speaker 2: Some do right, but most don't.

2468
02:15:37,040 --> 02:15:40,040
Speaker 1: Most most if the guys that I've worked with, it

2469
02:15:40,160 --> 02:15:43,240
Speaker 1: reinforces their determination to not make.

2470
02:15:43,160 --> 02:15:46,320
Speaker 3: Mistakes precisely, But that's the risk profile. That's what I'm saying.

2471
02:15:46,480 --> 02:15:50,800
Speaker 3: You make sure that you take the risks that are

2472
02:15:51,000 --> 02:15:55,000
Speaker 3: calculated and mistake proof because there's a different thing. But

2473
02:15:55,040 --> 02:15:57,440
Speaker 3: at the same time, the cowboys go away quick once

2474
02:15:57,480 --> 02:15:59,760
Speaker 3: there's other people involved. Well, yeah, and who wants to

2475
02:15:59,800 --> 02:16:03,560
Speaker 3: go Who wants to strap your wagon to a cowboy

2476
02:16:03,600 --> 02:16:05,480
Speaker 3: that doesn't want to come home? So people ask about

2477
02:16:05,480 --> 02:16:07,080
Speaker 3: this with Mars all the time. They're like, would you

2478
02:16:07,120 --> 02:16:09,160
Speaker 3: take it? Like, I'm like, no, it's it's a it's

2479
02:16:09,200 --> 02:16:11,920
Speaker 3: a return trip home. You don't want to go with

2480
02:16:11,960 --> 02:16:15,120
Speaker 3: somebody who doesn't want to come home, that's right, And

2481
02:16:15,120 --> 02:16:17,480
Speaker 3: in astronauts would say this at times. I forget who

2482
02:16:17,480 --> 02:16:21,360
Speaker 3: I've heard somebody, but they would say that. People ask him,

2483
02:16:21,360 --> 02:16:23,760
Speaker 3: are you scared? He's like, well, yeah, he's like, I

2484
02:16:23,840 --> 02:16:26,440
Speaker 3: don't want to go to space with someone who's not scared.

2485
02:16:26,920 --> 02:16:30,200
Speaker 3: I mean, why would you? And in combat, when we

2486
02:16:30,360 --> 02:16:33,520
Speaker 3: go to UFC or mixed martial arts stuff like, it's

2487
02:16:33,560 --> 02:16:36,720
Speaker 3: like when you mentor and coach guys training up and

2488
02:16:37,320 --> 02:16:39,560
Speaker 3: before the match, they got the butterflies, they got this

2489
02:16:39,959 --> 02:16:41,320
Speaker 3: it's and they're they're scared.

2490
02:16:41,640 --> 02:16:43,879
Speaker 1: I've worked with one of the greatest UFC fighters in

2491
02:16:43,959 --> 02:16:48,120
Speaker 1: human history, Andrea Vlovsky, and I remember when I was

2492
02:16:48,120 --> 02:16:50,080
Speaker 1: working with him, he was in his eighteenth year and

2493
02:16:50,120 --> 02:16:52,160
Speaker 1: I remember we were getting ready to go on a fight.

2494
02:16:53,520 --> 02:16:55,880
Speaker 1: It was I think his Chicago fight that I did

2495
02:16:55,920 --> 02:16:59,480
Speaker 1: with him, and you could tell I watched it come

2496
02:16:59,520 --> 02:17:02,240
Speaker 1: over him. And I'd been with him two fights before

2497
02:17:02,320 --> 02:17:04,440
Speaker 1: and it was a little bit different in those, but

2498
02:17:04,520 --> 02:17:07,360
Speaker 1: this one was more meaningful. That's where he'd got his start.

2499
02:17:07,440 --> 02:17:10,400
Speaker 1: That's he lived in this one word shitty apartment and

2500
02:17:10,440 --> 02:17:12,600
Speaker 1: now he's back to the space and it's like he's

2501
02:17:12,640 --> 02:17:15,160
Speaker 1: in the twilight of his career and you saw it,

2502
02:17:15,480 --> 02:17:17,440
Speaker 1: and I'm like, are you all right? And he's like

2503
02:17:17,680 --> 02:17:19,720
Speaker 1: he's like, yeah, I'm good. I was like, are you

2504
02:17:19,800 --> 02:17:23,480
Speaker 1: feeling it more intensely? He's like, yeah, of course I am.

2505
02:17:23,879 --> 02:17:25,680
Speaker 1: And he's like and I'm like why, and he's like,

2506
02:17:25,720 --> 02:17:29,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to get into a fight, and there's no

2507
02:17:29,160 --> 02:17:30,880
Speaker 1: other there's no other thing.

2508
02:17:31,040 --> 02:17:33,240
Speaker 3: But I tell kids, like, when you don't feel the

2509
02:17:33,240 --> 02:17:35,560
Speaker 3: butterflies when you should be worried. Yeah, they're a good

2510
02:17:35,640 --> 02:17:37,880
Speaker 3: sign that you know what's at stake, you know what's

2511
02:17:37,879 --> 02:17:40,720
Speaker 3: that happened. And so you teach the kids to embrace that.

2512
02:17:40,720 --> 02:17:42,080
Speaker 3: That's not a thing to be scared of. That's a

2513
02:17:42,120 --> 02:17:44,520
Speaker 3: thing that's a fear to embrace because it means you're

2514
02:17:44,520 --> 02:17:46,560
Speaker 3: on the right path and it's it's funny. So we

2515
02:17:46,600 --> 02:17:48,600
Speaker 3: had a really similar conversation a couple of years ago.

2516
02:17:48,959 --> 02:17:51,320
Speaker 3: I did a pod. I used to have a podcast.

2517
02:17:51,360 --> 02:17:54,040
Speaker 3: It was a really crappy YouTube show with Lynland and

2518
02:17:54,640 --> 02:17:57,160
Speaker 3: Eddie Penny was our guest, and so he's very gracious.

2519
02:17:57,440 --> 02:17:59,560
Speaker 3: He came down and I was just happy to be

2520
02:17:59,560 --> 02:18:01,320
Speaker 3: a flying the way. I'll listen to the two of

2521
02:18:01,320 --> 02:18:03,480
Speaker 3: those guys. So Eddie and him were talking about the

2522
02:18:03,520 --> 02:18:06,600
Speaker 3: same thing about He was asking Matt, what's it like

2523
02:18:06,600 --> 02:18:09,199
Speaker 3: when you go into the ring, you know, to fight

2524
02:18:09,200 --> 02:18:11,200
Speaker 3: in front of putin or something, And Matt was like,

2525
02:18:11,240 --> 02:18:14,320
Speaker 3: you know, listening to Eddie talk about like, what's it

2526
02:18:14,400 --> 02:18:16,560
Speaker 3: like when the back door of the helicopter comes down

2527
02:18:16,560 --> 02:18:18,959
Speaker 3: and you're out and it's go time, right on a

2528
02:18:18,959 --> 02:18:21,800
Speaker 3: mission or something. And it was so funny to see

2529
02:18:21,800 --> 02:18:25,680
Speaker 3: the totally different worlds completely match between the two of them,

2530
02:18:25,680 --> 02:18:30,800
Speaker 3: because Matt's answer to Eddie was like, when I heard

2531
02:18:30,800 --> 02:18:34,119
Speaker 3: that pin drop in the the door of the octagon

2532
02:18:35,080 --> 02:18:38,040
Speaker 3: and I knew that it was locked. They were talking

2533
02:18:38,080 --> 02:18:41,879
Speaker 3: about this fear, right, Matt's like his answer, He's like,

2534
02:18:43,959 --> 02:18:47,440
Speaker 3: I knew they couldn't escape, And Eddie's like, yeah, that's

2535
02:18:47,440 --> 02:18:50,400
Speaker 3: how I felt leaving the helicopter. He's like, like, you

2536
02:18:50,440 --> 02:18:52,440
Speaker 3: weren't scared at all at that point. He's like, once

2537
02:18:52,480 --> 02:18:56,080
Speaker 3: that and it was all flipped. You're not scared of

2538
02:18:56,080 --> 02:18:58,360
Speaker 3: what happens to you. You know that they can't get

2539
02:18:58,360 --> 02:19:00,240
Speaker 3: away from you. Now, that's right, and that as a

2540
02:19:00,240 --> 02:19:01,560
Speaker 3: warrior some mindset.

2541
02:19:01,200 --> 02:19:04,360
Speaker 1: That's right, and you and you can you, I mean,

2542
02:19:04,360 --> 02:19:07,160
Speaker 1: through stress inoculation, you can teach that right. That's why

2543
02:19:07,160 --> 02:19:10,440
Speaker 1: I say, don't don't seek out to be fearless, because

2544
02:19:10,480 --> 02:19:13,640
Speaker 1: there's no such thing, but to embrace that fear and

2545
02:19:13,840 --> 02:19:16,440
Speaker 1: use it as the motivation that drives you forward right.

2546
02:19:16,400 --> 02:19:18,320
Speaker 3: Well, and that's and that's why I asked about it,

2547
02:19:18,320 --> 02:19:21,160
Speaker 3: because when you were describing those those moments of using

2548
02:19:21,200 --> 02:19:25,760
Speaker 3: fear through through your blood's training and the boats, when

2549
02:19:25,760 --> 02:19:27,840
Speaker 3: the people were asking weren't you scared, You're like, well yeah,

2550
02:19:28,000 --> 02:19:30,560
Speaker 3: but like when you That's why I think it's important

2551
02:19:30,720 --> 02:19:33,760
Speaker 3: with stress inoculation, you can have this little fear trend.

2552
02:19:33,800 --> 02:19:35,360
Speaker 2: People need to build this up in their.

2553
02:19:35,240 --> 02:19:39,160
Speaker 3: Lives, right, because it gives you the tools to say, like,

2554
02:19:40,320 --> 02:19:42,760
Speaker 3: I know how to suffer and if if I'm going

2555
02:19:42,800 --> 02:19:46,840
Speaker 3: to lose something from this, I'll be okay. Like if so,

2556
02:19:46,840 --> 02:19:49,040
Speaker 3: so you're gonna punish me, Okay, I can handle a

2557
02:19:49,080 --> 02:19:51,680
Speaker 3: punishment or I can handle the pain because I know

2558
02:19:51,800 --> 02:19:52,360
Speaker 3: I'm strong.

2559
02:19:52,520 --> 02:19:54,080
Speaker 2: I know that we can survive.

2560
02:19:54,280 --> 02:19:56,960
Speaker 1: Well, you improve too, and they're what Just a couple

2561
02:19:56,920 --> 02:20:04,920
Speaker 1: of months ago, some neuroscientists disc that the suffering improves cognition, right,

2562
02:20:05,040 --> 02:20:08,720
Speaker 1: improves a sense of self, it improves all of that.

2563
02:20:08,840 --> 02:20:13,360
Speaker 1: And I haven't read the science yet, but I'm like, well, duh,

2564
02:20:13,400 --> 02:20:17,440
Speaker 1: you know, duh, like the resilience piece and the it

2565
02:20:17,520 --> 02:20:22,879
Speaker 1: reinforces those neuropathways if you access the ones, that gets

2566
02:20:22,879 --> 02:20:23,560
Speaker 1: you through it.

2567
02:20:23,560 --> 02:20:27,119
Speaker 3: Right, So yeah, so and I told you I come

2568
02:20:27,160 --> 02:20:32,080
Speaker 3: back to this when you were talking about metacognition. Yeah,

2569
02:20:32,200 --> 02:20:35,600
Speaker 3: when you're saying the suffering builds reinforces those pathways and

2570
02:20:35,640 --> 02:20:38,880
Speaker 3: those resilience, I think this is a little bit anecdotally

2571
02:20:38,920 --> 02:20:41,000
Speaker 3: for me speaking to and then I'll get to the science.

2572
02:20:41,040 --> 02:20:43,320
Speaker 3: But like I think, when you're going through that suffering,

2573
02:20:43,320 --> 02:20:46,440
Speaker 3: one of the mechanisms by which it accomplishes those reinforcing

2574
02:20:46,480 --> 02:20:51,960
Speaker 3: and the connections and whatnot is when you're suffering, you're

2575
02:20:52,000 --> 02:20:55,280
Speaker 3: actually engaged. You're engaging a lot of self talk and

2576
02:20:55,800 --> 02:20:59,760
Speaker 3: self reflection because like a lot of times, you're usually

2577
02:21:00,040 --> 02:21:01,960
Speaker 3: bring by yourself, so you're like talking all sorts of

2578
02:21:01,959 --> 02:21:03,680
Speaker 3: stuff like what is it? How do I get out?

2579
02:21:03,800 --> 02:21:07,040
Speaker 3: And there's negative insurgencies, right, and that's what you need

2580
02:21:07,080 --> 02:21:14,120
Speaker 3: to You need to harness those negative self talks, unleash

2581
02:21:14,240 --> 02:21:17,240
Speaker 3: the positive ones, and wrestle with it. Let those two

2582
02:21:17,280 --> 02:21:21,160
Speaker 3: horses run together to pull your cart, right. And so

2583
02:21:21,440 --> 02:21:24,039
Speaker 3: that takes practice because that's a skill. And so as

2584
02:21:24,040 --> 02:21:28,240
Speaker 3: you're practiced in the skill of suffering, you're actually practicing

2585
02:21:28,280 --> 02:21:33,280
Speaker 3: in the skills of self awareness meta cognition. And that's

2586
02:21:33,400 --> 02:21:36,879
Speaker 3: uh what you were describing in those some of the

2587
02:21:37,000 --> 02:21:40,119
Speaker 3: whether it was kids or recruits or colleagues, people who

2588
02:21:40,120 --> 02:21:42,480
Speaker 3: are over confident and think, oh I got this, and

2589
02:21:42,840 --> 02:21:45,680
Speaker 3: they don't take feedback and they're like no, no, we're good,

2590
02:21:45,680 --> 02:21:50,360
Speaker 3: and you're like no, literally, like you're not. So I

2591
02:21:50,360 --> 02:21:54,080
Speaker 3: don't for goold me if you haven't heard of this phenomenon.

2592
02:21:54,120 --> 02:21:57,280
Speaker 3: But there's a phenomenon in psychology called the Dunning Kruger effect. Yeah,

2593
02:21:57,840 --> 02:22:00,320
Speaker 3: so I discovered the first neural correlates of it. Are

2594
02:22:00,360 --> 02:22:01,000
Speaker 3: you kidding me?

2595
02:22:01,080 --> 02:22:03,320
Speaker 2: No? I published it in twenty twenty one. Are you

2596
02:22:03,480 --> 02:22:04,760
Speaker 2: kidding me? All Right?

2597
02:22:04,879 --> 02:22:08,400
Speaker 1: Explain it to because it's one of the most phenomenal

2598
02:22:08,440 --> 02:22:10,039
Speaker 1: things that I've ever been exposed to.

2599
02:22:10,240 --> 02:22:13,439
Speaker 2: I call it psychological gravity. Awesome.

2600
02:22:13,920 --> 02:22:17,640
Speaker 3: Why gravity? Because gravity is a physical force of nature

2601
02:22:17,720 --> 02:22:20,560
Speaker 3: in the world and it affects everyone. You don't get

2602
02:22:20,560 --> 02:22:24,120
Speaker 3: to float around Earth. You are harnessed by gravity. You

2603
02:22:24,160 --> 02:22:27,520
Speaker 3: can beat gravity, you can jump, but it takes energy

2604
02:22:27,840 --> 02:22:31,000
Speaker 3: to beat that. Gravity bring you down, and it will

2605
02:22:31,040 --> 02:22:34,000
Speaker 3: also bring you down to an airplane can use energy

2606
02:22:34,040 --> 02:22:38,360
Speaker 3: to lift off. It takes energy to stay above gravity,

2607
02:22:38,480 --> 02:22:41,320
Speaker 3: but it will eventually have to come down because it's unsustainable.

2608
02:22:41,560 --> 02:22:46,560
Speaker 3: So when I say it's psychological gravity. It's a psychological

2609
02:22:46,600 --> 02:22:51,000
Speaker 3: phenomena that affects everyone like a physical law of Newtonian

2610
02:22:51,080 --> 02:22:54,640
Speaker 3: gravity does in the world of physics, which is to say,

2611
02:22:54,879 --> 02:22:58,360
Speaker 3: I am talking to everyone, including me and you. There

2612
02:22:58,440 --> 02:23:01,560
Speaker 3: is no one that is not effect by this phenomena. Okay,

2613
02:23:01,560 --> 02:23:06,520
Speaker 3: so what's the phenomena. It is a twofold phenomena. The

2614
02:23:06,560 --> 02:23:11,120
Speaker 3: one part of it is that people have a tendency

2615
02:23:11,160 --> 02:23:16,199
Speaker 3: to overestimate their abilities or capabilities, and the other side

2616
02:23:16,320 --> 02:23:19,280
Speaker 3: is that people also have a tendency to underestimate their

2617
02:23:19,280 --> 02:23:24,560
Speaker 3: capabilities and performances. Now, the twist on it is that

2618
02:23:24,640 --> 02:23:28,160
Speaker 3: it tends to be the phenomena is that the people

2619
02:23:28,160 --> 02:23:30,920
Speaker 3: who are the most competent and the most capable are

2620
02:23:30,920 --> 02:23:35,160
Speaker 3: the ones who underestimate themselves. And the people who are

2621
02:23:35,200 --> 02:23:39,080
Speaker 3: the most or the least competent are the ones who

2622
02:23:39,160 --> 02:23:45,120
Speaker 3: are the most overconfident. So in the science side of that,

2623
02:23:45,160 --> 02:23:50,080
Speaker 3: statistically we call that a crossover interaction. So and I'll

2624
02:23:50,080 --> 02:23:57,119
Speaker 3: impact that as we move along here. So it's really problematic,

2625
02:23:57,160 --> 02:23:59,959
Speaker 3: So I gave it. I actually I reported these findings

2626
02:24:00,040 --> 02:24:02,920
Speaker 3: to Army Futures Command at the Association for the US

2627
02:24:03,040 --> 02:24:05,200
Speaker 3: Army because I pitched it in the context of we

2628
02:24:05,240 --> 02:24:08,520
Speaker 3: can make better leaders my stopping over confidence. And I

2629
02:24:08,520 --> 02:24:12,039
Speaker 3: had to picture George Armstrong Custer on the slide because

2630
02:24:12,120 --> 02:24:14,320
Speaker 3: like perfect example, Well this is all fun and games

2631
02:24:14,360 --> 02:24:17,440
Speaker 3: and lovey dovey psychology stuff into lives around the line

2632
02:24:17,720 --> 02:24:21,000
Speaker 3: and over confidence kills, which it did. It killed everybody

2633
02:24:21,000 --> 02:24:25,320
Speaker 3: in his command. But under confidence kills too. If you

2634
02:24:25,360 --> 02:24:28,640
Speaker 3: don't go forward when you should, you miss an opportunity

2635
02:24:28,680 --> 02:24:32,040
Speaker 3: a for victory, but be to save lives that could

2636
02:24:32,080 --> 02:24:35,240
Speaker 3: have escaped a bombing or you know, whatever scenario you

2637
02:24:35,280 --> 02:24:38,480
Speaker 3: want to you know create. So both of them are

2638
02:24:38,600 --> 02:24:43,560
Speaker 3: essential to master for good leadership. And I needed a

2639
02:24:43,600 --> 02:24:47,320
Speaker 3: good military example of how the military doesn't always have

2640
02:24:47,680 --> 02:24:50,360
Speaker 3: that great calibration. Custer was a great one that was

2641
02:24:50,400 --> 02:24:53,000
Speaker 3: so far away that nobody would feel like I was

2642
02:24:53,040 --> 02:24:53,920
Speaker 3: talking to them in the room.

2643
02:24:55,600 --> 02:25:01,240
Speaker 1: So there's actually a wonderful book that a British psychologists

2644
02:25:01,240 --> 02:25:05,520
Speaker 1: wrote about British officers making horrible calls and why the

2645
02:25:05,560 --> 02:25:09,160
Speaker 1: psychology it's like psychology of bad Leaders or something like that.

2646
02:25:09,280 --> 02:25:10,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, unbelievable.

2647
02:25:10,440 --> 02:25:12,200
Speaker 3: And so this is actually one of the things if

2648
02:25:12,200 --> 02:25:14,120
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have been fired, I was writing grants some

2649
02:25:14,120 --> 02:25:17,440
Speaker 3: projects I wanted to apply this actually in a leadership context,

2650
02:25:17,480 --> 02:25:20,959
Speaker 3: which our study was in a basic science way. It

2651
02:25:21,000 --> 02:25:22,840
Speaker 3: wasn't an applied way of leaders But I'm like, this

2652
02:25:22,879 --> 02:25:24,920
Speaker 3: is the next step. We have to do this, these

2653
02:25:25,000 --> 02:25:27,400
Speaker 3: kind of research studies because it's it could be gamebuster.

2654
02:25:27,520 --> 02:25:30,199
Speaker 3: So what we found in our studies and what the

2655
02:25:30,240 --> 02:25:35,039
Speaker 3: psychological phenomenon, the dun Kruger effect is is that our

2656
02:25:35,280 --> 02:25:38,720
Speaker 3: least competent think they're the best, sort of your Bregado shows,

2657
02:25:40,000 --> 02:25:44,160
Speaker 3: and our most competent I think they're the worst. So

2658
02:25:44,320 --> 02:25:47,480
Speaker 3: I call him you're humble heroes. So and and we

2659
02:25:47,480 --> 02:25:49,720
Speaker 3: see this in all tracks of life. Right, if you

2660
02:25:49,760 --> 02:25:52,800
Speaker 3: talk to Michael Jordan, he knows he's Michael Jordan. You know,

2661
02:25:52,840 --> 02:25:55,960
Speaker 3: he might be some people might think he's arrogant, but

2662
02:25:56,120 --> 02:25:58,879
Speaker 3: he's just confident. He's actually a reasonably humble guy because

2663
02:25:58,879 --> 02:25:59,280
Speaker 3: he knows it.

2664
02:25:59,360 --> 02:26:00,039
Speaker 2: And if you talk to.

2665
02:25:59,959 --> 02:26:03,480
Speaker 3: Your tier one guys like all, look there, you know,

2666
02:26:03,520 --> 02:26:05,240
Speaker 3: you get them all around the bar. You guys arouse

2667
02:26:05,280 --> 02:26:09,080
Speaker 3: each other in quiet, but like I'm there, the humbleness

2668
02:26:09,120 --> 02:26:12,040
Speaker 3: probably climbs as you climb that ladder one hundred percent.

2669
02:26:12,160 --> 02:26:13,440
Speaker 2: I mean, there's there's.

2670
02:26:13,280 --> 02:26:19,000
Speaker 1: A there's a there's a I think there's a existence

2671
02:26:19,040 --> 02:26:22,199
Speaker 1: within the operational community that it's like, I'm not gonna

2672
02:26:22,480 --> 02:26:26,760
Speaker 1: your humility is tempered because it's it's happening in real time.

2673
02:26:27,040 --> 02:26:30,600
Speaker 1: But the guys, the really amazing operators that I know,

2674
02:26:31,040 --> 02:26:35,560
Speaker 1: as soon as they separate from that world, unbelievably humble

2675
02:26:35,920 --> 02:26:36,360
Speaker 1: in terms.

2676
02:26:36,600 --> 02:26:39,240
Speaker 3: And just to take it back to the guy you mentioned,

2677
02:26:39,320 --> 02:26:42,000
Speaker 3: Colonel Charlie Plump, one of the things that was incredible

2678
02:26:42,000 --> 02:26:45,840
Speaker 3: for me was his humility about his whole scenario. And

2679
02:26:45,879 --> 02:26:48,119
Speaker 3: he made a comment in a show that we did

2680
02:26:48,160 --> 02:26:51,800
Speaker 3: together during COVID about kind of isolation and confinement. And

2681
02:26:51,840 --> 02:26:54,840
Speaker 3: I was very like deferential because he's like, well, you've

2682
02:26:54,879 --> 02:26:57,120
Speaker 3: you've done some time to him like I did a

2683
02:26:57,120 --> 02:26:59,720
Speaker 3: few weeks, Like I'm not going to sit here with

2684
02:26:59,760 --> 02:27:01,920
Speaker 3: you and talk about doing talk.

2685
02:27:01,959 --> 02:27:03,000
Speaker 2: But he's amazing.

2686
02:27:03,240 --> 02:27:05,600
Speaker 3: But he he said no, no, he's like, you don't

2687
02:27:05,680 --> 02:27:08,320
Speaker 3: understand Rick, Like Tom, if you did one day, time

2688
02:27:08,400 --> 02:27:12,400
Speaker 3: is time. And he said that he understood that everybody

2689
02:27:12,480 --> 02:27:15,199
Speaker 3: has their own Hanoi hilt and everybody has their own prison.

2690
02:27:15,240 --> 02:27:17,360
Speaker 3: We're not operating all at the same level. So he

2691
02:27:17,480 --> 02:27:21,240
Speaker 3: had such a large cup of water that could hold

2692
02:27:21,400 --> 02:27:23,880
Speaker 3: so much fluid that it took four years to fill.

2693
02:27:24,200 --> 02:27:25,680
Speaker 3: But somebody else, he's like, he might be in an

2694
02:27:25,720 --> 02:27:27,119
Speaker 3: abusive relationship at home.

2695
02:27:27,200 --> 02:27:27,520
Speaker 2: That's right.

2696
02:27:27,920 --> 02:27:30,200
Speaker 3: That is the same prison and the same resilience that

2697
02:27:30,200 --> 02:27:32,800
Speaker 3: you're building. And he could understand that with the humility

2698
02:27:32,920 --> 02:27:35,200
Speaker 3: rather than be like, well, you know I did this,

2699
02:27:35,720 --> 02:27:38,039
Speaker 3: he isn't as you know, he's not that guy. No,

2700
02:27:38,200 --> 02:27:41,800
Speaker 3: And so with Dunnan Krueger you have this famous phenomena.

2701
02:27:42,200 --> 02:27:48,000
Speaker 3: It's captured in biblical scripture. Confucius Shakespeare famously said the

2702
02:27:48,040 --> 02:27:50,320
Speaker 3: fool thinks he's wise, but the wise man knows himself

2703
02:27:50,360 --> 02:27:53,119
Speaker 3: to be a fool. And I was just back from

2704
02:27:53,280 --> 02:27:58,760
Speaker 3: the NASA Astronaut interview process twenty sixteen, and I was,

2705
02:28:01,480 --> 02:28:03,880
Speaker 3: I mean, it was reasonable that I could have been

2706
02:28:03,879 --> 02:28:07,640
Speaker 3: picked up because I just interviewed in the finals. Fortunately

2707
02:28:07,680 --> 02:28:09,480
Speaker 3: I had to go up against Johnny Camp and Frank

2708
02:28:09,560 --> 02:28:11,240
Speaker 3: Ruvio and they beat me pretty.

2709
02:28:11,000 --> 02:28:14,679
Speaker 2: Good, very healthy competitors.

2710
02:28:14,760 --> 02:28:18,440
Speaker 3: Yet but yeah, I went home to my university job

2711
02:28:18,480 --> 02:28:20,600
Speaker 3: and I said, I probably won't be able to run

2712
02:28:20,640 --> 02:28:23,080
Speaker 3: any more scientific studies anymore, Like what would I run again?

2713
02:28:23,160 --> 02:28:25,840
Speaker 3: And one year to run whatever study you can do.

2714
02:28:25,920 --> 02:28:27,960
Speaker 3: And I had a student who came and actually demonstrated

2715
02:28:27,959 --> 02:28:30,160
Speaker 3: this effect. She was complaining about some grades she got

2716
02:28:30,200 --> 02:28:31,520
Speaker 3: in a test, but she's like, but I've always just

2717
02:28:31,560 --> 02:28:34,320
Speaker 3: gotten a's and all my papers. I'm like, well, here's

2718
02:28:34,320 --> 02:28:36,000
Speaker 3: why you got enough like you just here's the reasons

2719
02:28:36,040 --> 02:28:39,119
Speaker 3: it didn't connect. She was over confident because she didn't

2720
02:28:39,120 --> 02:28:43,280
Speaker 3: have the skills to know the areas that were failing short.

2721
02:28:43,440 --> 02:28:46,000
Speaker 3: And so I said, I wonder where the brain activity

2722
02:28:46,040 --> 02:28:47,720
Speaker 3: is associated with this? And I went and I looked

2723
02:28:47,760 --> 02:28:49,840
Speaker 3: at and it turns out there weren't any studies of

2724
02:28:49,879 --> 02:28:52,840
Speaker 3: these phenomenas. And so I designed one because I'm like,

2725
02:28:52,920 --> 02:28:55,000
Speaker 3: this may be I could never do another science. I'll

2726
02:28:55,040 --> 02:28:56,720
Speaker 3: just be a labrad for an ascid the rest of my life,

2727
02:28:56,920 --> 02:29:01,199
Speaker 3: right possibly, And so let's do it. And I didn't

2728
02:29:01,240 --> 02:29:05,680
Speaker 3: ask for any research funding. I didn't get blogged down

2729
02:29:05,720 --> 02:29:08,240
Speaker 3: in the bureaucracy. We ended up getting funding later for it.

2730
02:29:08,720 --> 02:29:11,080
Speaker 3: It took a long time of being told no, we

2731
02:29:11,200 --> 02:29:14,520
Speaker 3: just did it. It was a beautiful, badass part of science.

2732
02:29:14,520 --> 02:29:15,400
Speaker 2: We just did it.

2733
02:29:15,680 --> 02:29:17,680
Speaker 3: And so we built a study as a memory study,

2734
02:29:17,720 --> 02:29:20,480
Speaker 3: and we'd ask people every ten trials of their memory

2735
02:29:20,480 --> 02:29:24,240
Speaker 3: decisions to say, how well do you think you're performing

2736
02:29:24,320 --> 02:29:27,360
Speaker 3: compared to everyone, And so we replicated that crossover finding.

2737
02:29:27,400 --> 02:29:32,480
Speaker 3: So the best performers said they were performing not so great,

2738
02:29:32,800 --> 02:29:35,440
Speaker 3: and vice versa. The people performing the worst on the

2739
02:29:35,480 --> 02:29:37,800
Speaker 3: memories test thought they were doing great. But what was

2740
02:29:37,800 --> 02:29:42,520
Speaker 3: really interesting was two patterns of results. One was a

2741
02:29:42,600 --> 02:29:48,760
Speaker 3: behavioral response times and the other was the brain activity. First,

2742
02:29:48,840 --> 02:29:51,560
Speaker 3: the behavioral response times, how fast people respond to those

2743
02:29:51,640 --> 02:29:55,920
Speaker 3: judgments you mimic the exact same crossover pattern of results.

2744
02:29:55,920 --> 02:29:59,240
Speaker 3: So the people who are your humble heroes, they were

2745
02:29:59,440 --> 02:30:05,200
Speaker 3: slowest and speed to press the button to say I'm

2746
02:30:05,240 --> 02:30:09,640
Speaker 3: doing the best. They were also fastest to say I'm

2747
02:30:09,640 --> 02:30:13,959
Speaker 3: doing the worst. And your braggadocio's the people who were

2748
02:30:14,320 --> 02:30:18,960
Speaker 3: had the illusion of being better. They were fastest to

2749
02:30:19,000 --> 02:30:24,000
Speaker 3: say I'm the greatest and slowest to say I'm the worst.

2750
02:30:24,160 --> 02:30:25,040
Speaker 2: They were the worst.

2751
02:30:25,760 --> 02:30:29,680
Speaker 3: Wow, And I mean that tracks anybody who has worked

2752
02:30:29,840 --> 02:30:34,080
Speaker 3: like you have with high performance. You've also it's exactly

2753
02:30:34,160 --> 02:30:36,760
Speaker 3: how you see things manifest That's what you focus on

2754
02:30:37,280 --> 02:30:40,720
Speaker 3: that evaluation, and that's how you begin to break the

2755
02:30:40,760 --> 02:30:42,680
Speaker 3: individual down or build them up.

2756
02:30:43,160 --> 02:30:46,600
Speaker 1: Is in that space, in that crossover, that's what I

2757
02:30:46,640 --> 02:30:47,120
Speaker 1: look for.

2758
02:30:47,320 --> 02:30:50,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the problem that we've had psychologically is we've

2759
02:30:50,400 --> 02:30:55,360
Speaker 3: known about this phenomena since for decades, and they've come

2760
02:30:55,400 --> 02:30:58,039
Speaker 3: up with theories to explain why and it's and we

2761
02:30:58,200 --> 02:31:03,360
Speaker 3: reasoned in the literature that the theoretical accounts for it

2762
02:31:03,400 --> 02:31:05,920
Speaker 3: were garbage because all they came up with was the

2763
02:31:06,040 --> 02:31:09,200
Speaker 3: account of it being they called reach around knowledge that

2764
02:31:09,280 --> 02:31:11,080
Speaker 3: you have some knowledge and it's allowing you to reach

2765
02:31:11,120 --> 02:31:13,959
Speaker 3: around to some guests that you're going to do, or

2766
02:31:14,000 --> 02:31:17,960
Speaker 3: they said basically blissful ignorance like that you don't know,

2767
02:31:18,040 --> 02:31:19,480
Speaker 3: so you're blissfully over confident.

2768
02:31:19,640 --> 02:31:21,279
Speaker 2: To me, that's not a well.

2769
02:31:22,920 --> 02:31:28,080
Speaker 3: Designed and empirically strong construct of a psychological construct. That

2770
02:31:28,160 --> 02:31:30,240
Speaker 3: just doesn't to me, that's that was flimsy and week

2771
02:31:30,360 --> 02:31:33,360
Speaker 3: So we recorded brain activity of these judgments and we

2772
02:31:33,400 --> 02:31:36,320
Speaker 3: found two patterns of effects. We actually found different brain

2773
02:31:36,360 --> 02:31:39,640
Speaker 3: activity for these different judgments of the people doing these things.

2774
02:31:39,760 --> 02:31:43,520
Speaker 3: And what we found was a pattern of activity in

2775
02:31:43,560 --> 02:31:47,600
Speaker 3: the overestimators, the people who are braggadocios, people you know,

2776
02:31:47,800 --> 02:31:50,680
Speaker 3: who think they're great you know and and and aren't.

2777
02:31:51,600 --> 02:31:53,760
Speaker 3: That pattern of activity was very frontal.

2778
02:31:53,440 --> 02:31:53,880
Speaker 2: In the brain.

2779
02:31:54,080 --> 02:31:56,720
Speaker 3: It was very kind of what we call early in time.

2780
02:31:56,879 --> 02:32:02,080
Speaker 3: So when the stimulus and the judgment happens. It happened

2781
02:32:02,160 --> 02:32:06,439
Speaker 3: very fast close to that judgment, about four hundred milliseconds.

2782
02:32:07,560 --> 02:32:10,160
Speaker 3: And what was interesting about what was interesting about that

2783
02:32:10,160 --> 02:32:13,160
Speaker 3: pattern brain activity is it's very it's the same pattern

2784
02:32:13,320 --> 02:32:15,560
Speaker 3: of brain activity that we see when people are in

2785
02:32:15,800 --> 02:32:18,879
Speaker 3: memory studies and are using a kind of memory we

2786
02:32:18,959 --> 02:32:24,840
Speaker 3: call familiarity, which I mentioned because your earlier comment made

2787
02:32:24,840 --> 02:32:28,600
Speaker 3: me kind of put a attack in returning to this,

2788
02:32:28,640 --> 02:32:35,160
Speaker 3: because it's the using of our just intuition. They're just

2789
02:32:35,280 --> 02:32:39,480
Speaker 3: kind of feeling that they're remembering something that they're not.

2790
02:32:39,560 --> 02:32:41,640
Speaker 3: They're not performing as well, but I think they are,

2791
02:32:41,879 --> 02:32:44,080
Speaker 3: and so there, how are they arriving at this judgment.

2792
02:32:44,120 --> 02:32:49,160
Speaker 3: It's because their decision is governed by the sense that

2793
02:32:49,200 --> 02:32:53,680
Speaker 3: this information just seems familiar. Okay, but how are the

2794
02:32:53,720 --> 02:32:59,199
Speaker 3: best performers actually constraining themselves and holding themselves back actually

2795
02:33:00,040 --> 02:33:03,080
Speaker 3: saying act and saying, well, actually they're not accurate, but

2796
02:33:03,120 --> 02:33:05,760
Speaker 3: they're saying they're underperforming. They had showed they didn't show

2797
02:33:05,760 --> 02:33:07,400
Speaker 3: that pattern of activity. They showed a pattern in the

2798
02:33:07,440 --> 02:33:10,160
Speaker 3: back left pridal area of the brain later in time

2799
02:33:10,200 --> 02:33:12,160
Speaker 3: about six hundred and nine hundred milliseconds.

2800
02:33:13,440 --> 02:33:14,840
Speaker 2: Why in the pridal region.

2801
02:33:16,200 --> 02:33:18,240
Speaker 3: Well, why is a deep question. I'm not sure I

2802
02:33:18,280 --> 02:33:20,480
Speaker 3: know the exact answer, but what I can tell you

2803
02:33:20,560 --> 02:33:23,640
Speaker 3: is that pattern of activity is the same pattern of

2804
02:33:23,640 --> 02:33:26,360
Speaker 3: activity that we see typically in memory studies when they

2805
02:33:26,440 --> 02:33:30,400
Speaker 3: use a different kind of memory process called recollection. Recollection

2806
02:33:30,560 --> 02:33:36,400
Speaker 3: is a clear, distinctive retrieval of the context woven together

2807
02:33:36,440 --> 02:33:38,400
Speaker 3: with the information from the past. That is, you know

2808
02:33:38,440 --> 02:33:40,760
Speaker 3: the details, you know, you can remember everything about it.

2809
02:33:40,760 --> 02:33:42,640
Speaker 3: It doesn't just seem fuzzy. Oh I think I know

2810
02:33:42,720 --> 02:33:45,879
Speaker 3: you from somewhere. Don't you seem very familiar? Instead this place,

2811
02:33:46,000 --> 02:33:49,160
Speaker 3: this time, This was a yeah, exactly okay, and so

2812
02:33:49,520 --> 02:33:53,640
Speaker 3: very different kind of memory. Those people are humble heroes

2813
02:33:53,959 --> 02:33:57,760
Speaker 3: were making their judgments and performance based upon that kind

2814
02:33:57,800 --> 02:34:01,040
Speaker 3: of a brain process, which told us a couple of things.

2815
02:34:01,360 --> 02:34:02,879
Speaker 2: It told us that they were.

2816
02:34:04,280 --> 02:34:09,800
Speaker 3: Constraining their judgments and estimations of their own performance relative

2817
02:34:09,879 --> 02:34:16,480
Speaker 3: to others with clear details and in specificity versus people

2818
02:34:16,480 --> 02:34:19,360
Speaker 3: were jumping to these wild conclusions of being great because

2819
02:34:19,400 --> 02:34:22,400
Speaker 3: it was actually fuzzy, and so they were using this

2820
02:34:22,480 --> 02:34:26,480
Speaker 3: intuition without facts, without information, and it was leading them

2821
02:34:26,520 --> 02:34:28,560
Speaker 3: down the primrose path of thinking they were better than

2822
02:34:28,600 --> 02:34:31,959
Speaker 3: they were and we kind of took the next leap

2823
02:34:32,000 --> 02:34:35,480
Speaker 3: of saying, we presume that they probably encoded the information differently.

2824
02:34:35,480 --> 02:34:38,959
Speaker 3: That is to say, like in real world applications, probably

2825
02:34:39,000 --> 02:34:42,560
Speaker 3: when you study better and you know the material better preparation,

2826
02:34:42,840 --> 02:34:46,039
Speaker 3: you're going to remember the details. Those details are also

2827
02:34:46,160 --> 02:34:49,520
Speaker 3: going to constrain you towards getting out too far in

2828
02:34:49,560 --> 02:34:51,400
Speaker 3: front of your skis, because you're also going to know

2829
02:34:51,480 --> 02:34:53,959
Speaker 3: the information well enough to where you also know what

2830
02:34:54,000 --> 02:34:57,320
Speaker 3: you don't know, and so you're like, you're honest about it. Well,

2831
02:34:57,320 --> 02:34:59,760
Speaker 3: in this case, they were falsely honest like that, right.

2832
02:35:00,080 --> 02:35:03,160
Speaker 3: The people that thought they were better than they were. No, No,

2833
02:35:03,200 --> 02:35:05,480
Speaker 3: those people were not honest about it.

2834
02:35:05,560 --> 02:35:09,920
Speaker 1: The people that were restrictive in their assessment of their

2835
02:35:10,000 --> 02:35:11,840
Speaker 1: capability they actually lowered.

2836
02:35:12,360 --> 02:35:15,600
Speaker 2: They weren't honest about how good they were. Was it

2837
02:35:15,640 --> 02:35:17,280
Speaker 2: a protective? Is it a protective?

2838
02:35:17,360 --> 02:35:19,080
Speaker 3: I think I think it was just I mean, like

2839
02:35:19,160 --> 02:35:22,759
Speaker 3: anything when you when you know what humility.

2840
02:35:22,360 --> 02:35:24,959
Speaker 1: When you was it part of those those moral those

2841
02:35:25,120 --> 02:35:30,720
Speaker 1: moral uh, those the the what the moral boundaries? Right?

2842
02:35:31,200 --> 02:35:31,440
Speaker 2: Kind of?

2843
02:35:31,440 --> 02:35:34,240
Speaker 3: I mean I think it's like the Socratic method Socrates, right, well,

2844
02:35:34,240 --> 02:35:36,040
Speaker 3: he knows what when you know what you don't know

2845
02:35:36,400 --> 02:35:38,920
Speaker 3: it's only because you studied and you put the work in.

2846
02:35:39,320 --> 02:35:41,800
Speaker 3: You went to you know, you took the long journey

2847
02:35:41,840 --> 02:35:45,240
Speaker 3: in life, like you put the work and you went

2848
02:35:45,280 --> 02:35:48,199
Speaker 3: through s qt. You did that, you now know who

2849
02:35:48,240 --> 02:35:51,600
Speaker 3: you are, or maybe maybe you don't until after combat.

2850
02:35:51,640 --> 02:35:53,959
Speaker 2: But like like you, you.

2851
02:35:53,800 --> 02:35:56,640
Speaker 3: Put the work in your journey to where now you

2852
02:35:56,680 --> 02:36:00,080
Speaker 3: have the constraint to realize Socratically, there's a lot I

2853
02:36:00,120 --> 02:36:02,920
Speaker 3: don't know. Yes, so, but that's only because you know

2854
02:36:03,000 --> 02:36:06,800
Speaker 3: so much. So the people who are are braggado shows

2855
02:36:06,879 --> 02:36:10,360
Speaker 3: they hadn't gone on that metaphorical journey. I would say

2856
02:36:10,400 --> 02:36:13,240
Speaker 3: that that they probably didn't encode the information well enough,

2857
02:36:13,320 --> 02:36:15,680
Speaker 3: and so it allows them to just use their intuition

2858
02:36:15,800 --> 02:36:18,920
Speaker 3: to falsely jump to conclusions and erroneously think they're better

2859
02:36:18,920 --> 02:36:20,360
Speaker 3: than they are. Now. You can see where I applied

2860
02:36:20,400 --> 02:36:23,000
Speaker 3: this towards the military leadership side to help. When I

2861
02:36:23,000 --> 02:36:25,039
Speaker 3: talk to the Army Futures Command, it was like, I

2862
02:36:25,080 --> 02:36:28,120
Speaker 3: was like, I think you want your leaders to be

2863
02:36:28,280 --> 02:36:31,360
Speaker 3: constrained and not to be the ones who maybe aren't

2864
02:36:31,480 --> 02:36:33,720
Speaker 3: who are making decisions out of intuition because they think

2865
02:36:33,720 --> 02:36:35,520
Speaker 3: it feels right because maybe they didn't study as well.

2866
02:36:35,720 --> 02:36:40,359
Speaker 1: How do you teach constraint or restrain. I mean not constrain,

2867
02:36:40,440 --> 02:36:42,879
Speaker 1: it's restrained, right, A little bit of both. I mean

2868
02:36:43,000 --> 02:36:47,480
Speaker 1: you're constraining your decisions based upon details, facts and information,

2869
02:36:47,640 --> 02:36:52,160
Speaker 1: based on experience. But you God bless you, I would

2870
02:36:52,200 --> 02:36:54,080
Speaker 1: say broadly, I mean it's probably the answer to this

2871
02:36:54,080 --> 02:36:57,600
Speaker 1: whole conversation, which is like experience and discernment and wrestling

2872
02:36:57,640 --> 02:37:01,560
Speaker 1: in the gray teaches that right, right, aiming that that

2873
02:37:01,560 --> 02:37:05,440
Speaker 1: that target on the target field trial and error. But

2874
02:37:05,520 --> 02:37:07,360
Speaker 1: you also have the guy you like.

2875
02:37:07,800 --> 02:37:09,959
Speaker 3: You can teach someone to shoot really a whole lot

2876
02:37:10,000 --> 02:37:12,320
Speaker 3: better if you just take him out of training and say,

2877
02:37:12,360 --> 02:37:13,760
Speaker 3: do what I tell you to do. I'm gonna teach

2878
02:37:13,800 --> 02:37:16,080
Speaker 3: you and listen to what you teach.

2879
02:37:16,120 --> 02:37:16,800
Speaker 2: You.

2880
02:37:16,800 --> 02:37:19,320
Speaker 3: You have to actual mission. You have to be coachable

2881
02:37:19,720 --> 02:37:23,400
Speaker 3: and and be responsive and accepting to feedback of what

2882
02:37:23,440 --> 02:37:25,600
Speaker 3: you're right and wrong about, and just do what I'm

2883
02:37:25,600 --> 02:37:27,640
Speaker 3: telling you to do. When you get kids like that,

2884
02:37:28,080 --> 02:37:31,520
Speaker 3: like from grassroots levels to the Olympic training center, like

2885
02:37:31,640 --> 02:37:34,560
Speaker 3: those are your those are the coaches dreams because you

2886
02:37:34,640 --> 02:37:37,879
Speaker 3: save so much time you just do the thing. And

2887
02:37:37,959 --> 02:37:40,480
Speaker 3: so when we found those patterns of brain activity, that's

2888
02:37:40,640 --> 02:37:43,520
Speaker 3: that's kind of what we deduced is that this Dunning

2889
02:37:43,560 --> 02:37:48,800
Speaker 3: Kruger phenomena is based upon people using these wrong mental

2890
02:37:48,840 --> 02:37:52,600
Speaker 3: processes too, because both of them are illusions. And and

2891
02:37:52,720 --> 02:37:55,160
Speaker 3: everybody talks about the Dunn Kruger effect for a while.

2892
02:37:55,200 --> 02:37:58,320
Speaker 3: People bash Trump for it, but because he just seems

2893
02:37:58,360 --> 02:38:00,600
Speaker 3: like this every it's great as you you know, the

2894
02:38:01,280 --> 02:38:04,880
Speaker 3: whole Braggado Show stereotype of anybody over confident.

2895
02:38:05,360 --> 02:38:06,840
Speaker 2: Some people might say a lot of seals.

2896
02:38:07,560 --> 02:38:11,760
Speaker 3: No, it's fact, but like you know, like the that

2897
02:38:11,959 --> 02:38:16,800
Speaker 3: just think of any stereotype of overconfident people. What I

2898
02:38:16,800 --> 02:38:20,520
Speaker 3: always when that story broke about five years ago, on

2899
02:38:20,600 --> 02:38:24,120
Speaker 3: that finding, I always told people and shows and smaller

2900
02:38:24,400 --> 02:38:26,160
Speaker 3: you know, interviews about it. I said, I think the

2901
02:38:26,160 --> 02:38:30,840
Speaker 3: biggest take home from that isn't that it's that, in

2902
02:38:30,879 --> 02:38:36,720
Speaker 3: a leadership sense, society is held back by our best

2903
02:38:36,760 --> 02:38:39,480
Speaker 3: people underestimating themselves.

2904
02:38:40,720 --> 02:38:41,480
Speaker 2: They're not running.

2905
02:38:41,480 --> 02:38:43,280
Speaker 3: They think somebody else is better, is going to run

2906
02:38:43,280 --> 02:38:45,400
Speaker 3: for office. They think somebody else is probably knows more,

2907
02:38:45,760 --> 02:38:49,840
Speaker 3: like you know, like so it's just I'm just a

2908
02:38:49,920 --> 02:38:52,640
Speaker 3: knuckle dragging wrestler at the end of the day, right

2909
02:38:52,760 --> 02:38:55,400
Speaker 3: like I was a bar back and a landscaper and

2910
02:38:55,560 --> 02:39:00,400
Speaker 3: a bar fighter and a wrestler, like somebody else, probably

2911
02:39:00,720 --> 02:39:03,600
Speaker 3: figure these guys are running for office or leadership for

2912
02:39:03,680 --> 02:39:06,360
Speaker 3: this or that is better. He probably knows more about it.

2913
02:39:06,560 --> 02:39:09,160
Speaker 2: No, they don't. They don't. We now know this for

2914
02:39:09,200 --> 02:39:11,200
Speaker 2: a factor. I thank Heaven's for the Internet. It's a

2915
02:39:11,240 --> 02:39:12,280
Speaker 2: it's a double edged weapon.

2916
02:39:12,400 --> 02:39:15,200
Speaker 3: Man. Is they revealed people for what they are, what

2917
02:39:15,240 --> 02:39:18,920
Speaker 3: they aren't. And now we know as leaders in society

2918
02:39:18,959 --> 02:39:21,920
Speaker 3: that we need to step up and we need others

2919
02:39:21,959 --> 02:39:25,680
Speaker 3: to step up. But when you're wrestling with those demons

2920
02:39:25,680 --> 02:39:30,119
Speaker 3: of doubt, the negative insurgency that you refer to, those

2921
02:39:30,480 --> 02:39:34,640
Speaker 3: should be learned through practice to be comfortable areas, because

2922
02:39:34,640 --> 02:39:37,440
Speaker 3: it means you're on that socratic path. If you don't

2923
02:39:37,440 --> 02:39:41,119
Speaker 3: have those demons of doubt, you're gonna make that overestimating air.

2924
02:39:41,320 --> 02:39:43,040
Speaker 3: You're gonna think you're great, you're gonna think you're fine.

2925
02:39:43,040 --> 02:39:45,000
Speaker 3: You don't have those butterflies before a match, you're about

2926
02:39:45,000 --> 02:39:48,879
Speaker 3: to get knocked out. That's that's the next like, that's

2927
02:39:49,040 --> 02:39:52,880
Speaker 3: learning how to harness that negative insurgency to make properly

2928
02:39:52,920 --> 02:39:55,600
Speaker 3: calibrated estimations and to put your hat in the ring

2929
02:39:56,040 --> 02:39:59,600
Speaker 3: and take command of control and lead your family, your township,

2930
02:39:59,600 --> 02:40:03,080
Speaker 3: your commun into your country forward, because we need the

2931
02:40:03,120 --> 02:40:07,560
Speaker 3: best people to stop thinking that they're not good and

2932
02:40:07,600 --> 02:40:09,039
Speaker 3: somebody else is better out there.

2933
02:40:09,240 --> 02:40:10,120
Speaker 2: I promise you they're not.

2934
02:40:11,360 --> 02:40:15,320
Speaker 3: It's the actual science, it's the actual data. And I

2935
02:40:15,360 --> 02:40:16,680
Speaker 3: was just fired from it, so we can't do more

2936
02:40:16,680 --> 02:40:17,039
Speaker 3: work on it.

2937
02:40:17,879 --> 02:40:20,160
Speaker 1: Well, my goal now is to figure out how to

2938
02:40:20,160 --> 02:40:24,320
Speaker 1: get you into a place that you can continue this work. Rick,

2939
02:40:24,640 --> 02:40:27,640
Speaker 1: I'm you know. I thought we'd go for an hour.

2940
02:40:27,720 --> 02:40:31,959
Speaker 1: We've gone for three. Oh yeah, it felt like it

2941
02:40:32,000 --> 02:40:35,840
Speaker 1: felt like three minutes. So I can't thank you enough

2942
02:40:35,879 --> 02:40:40,440
Speaker 1: for your time. Your courage is admirable beyond measure. But

2943
02:40:40,520 --> 02:40:46,280
Speaker 1: it's your your wisdom and and your drive, and man,

2944
02:40:46,560 --> 02:40:50,560
Speaker 1: I just I'm going to start praying that something's coming

2945
02:40:50,600 --> 02:40:54,200
Speaker 1: your way. All of this is for a reason, and

2946
02:40:55,560 --> 02:40:57,240
Speaker 1: just I can't thank you enough for coming on.

2947
02:40:57,480 --> 02:40:58,080
Speaker 2: That's my honor.

2948
02:40:58,280 --> 02:41:00,360
Speaker 3: I can't thank you enough for having me on. And

2949
02:41:00,400 --> 02:41:02,480
Speaker 3: like I said, there's been parts in my journey where

2950
02:41:02,480 --> 02:41:05,240
Speaker 3: I was wrestling with a negative insurgency and negative thoughts

2951
02:41:05,560 --> 02:41:08,640
Speaker 3: and I saw what you were doing, you know, evangelizing

2952
02:41:08,720 --> 02:41:12,400
Speaker 3: on the internet and and and giving good messages legitimately

2953
02:41:12,440 --> 02:41:15,200
Speaker 3: good things that have have helped give me the strength

2954
02:41:15,400 --> 02:41:17,959
Speaker 3: to get here, and many others too, So I mean.

2955
02:41:17,920 --> 02:41:21,160
Speaker 1: I appreciate you the man. How can people follow you,

2956
02:41:21,560 --> 02:41:24,160
Speaker 1: get in contact? Where can they see your work? You know,

2957
02:41:24,760 --> 02:41:25,920
Speaker 1: just share a little bit of that way?

2958
02:41:26,480 --> 02:41:30,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, so well, my work scientifically is on PubMed you

2959
02:41:30,680 --> 02:41:33,720
Speaker 3: can everything is publicly, freely accessible or kind of nerdy

2960
02:41:33,760 --> 02:41:34,600
Speaker 3: technical papers.

2961
02:41:34,840 --> 02:41:37,480
Speaker 2: Nobody tends to want to read them that much. But uh,

2962
02:41:37,800 --> 02:41:38,960
Speaker 2: I'm on, I just had to start.

2963
02:41:38,959 --> 02:41:41,080
Speaker 3: So basically, I've always been in the shadows and quiet

2964
02:41:41,480 --> 02:41:44,320
Speaker 3: and tried to be essentially a quiet professional. I've never

2965
02:41:44,360 --> 02:41:48,640
Speaker 3: really done anything publicly outside of science and NASA interviews

2966
02:41:48,640 --> 02:41:54,000
Speaker 3: and stuff. But I had to make us decision that

2967
02:41:54,000 --> 02:41:57,040
Speaker 3: we need to lean into this and and and reveal

2968
02:41:57,080 --> 02:41:58,959
Speaker 3: the truth for what it is. So now I started

2969
02:41:59,000 --> 02:42:03,240
Speaker 3: a Twitter account recked Dante. I have a sub stack

2970
02:42:03,600 --> 02:42:06,959
Speaker 3: which is our a Dante substack slash our a Dante

2971
02:42:07,160 --> 02:42:11,360
Speaker 3: so they can subscribe freer subscriber models Twitter. Of course

2972
02:42:11,360 --> 02:42:15,000
Speaker 3: I'm there, and I have a gifts or yeah gifts

2973
02:42:15,000 --> 02:42:18,720
Speaker 3: send go account. The title of it is The Truth

2974
02:42:18,800 --> 02:42:21,360
Speaker 3: is not for Sale. The website is some weird numbers.

2975
02:42:21,360 --> 02:42:24,120
Speaker 3: I forget what it is. It's like just random website.

2976
02:42:24,120 --> 02:42:26,360
Speaker 3: But the Truth is not for sale. Your name in

2977
02:42:26,520 --> 02:42:28,760
Speaker 3: truth is not for sale, and that'll give send go,

2978
02:42:28,920 --> 02:42:32,160
Speaker 3: that'll pop up. I would have had a better website

2979
02:42:32,240 --> 02:42:33,920
Speaker 3: name for it, but when I created it, I had

2980
02:42:33,959 --> 02:42:34,879
Speaker 3: never done it before.

2981
02:42:34,720 --> 02:42:37,720
Speaker 2: And I didn't worry about it like that. So you're good.

2982
02:42:38,000 --> 02:42:40,320
Speaker 3: But we're grateful, and you know, we're grateful for you.

2983
02:42:40,320 --> 02:42:42,840
Speaker 3: We're grateful for people who have been supportive. James of

2984
02:42:42,879 --> 02:42:45,880
Speaker 3: course has been a godsend, but so is everybody. I mean,

2985
02:42:45,879 --> 02:42:48,520
Speaker 3: people have given twenty bucks five like that. It all

2986
02:42:48,600 --> 02:42:52,640
Speaker 3: matters like and it truly warms our heart and touches

2987
02:42:52,680 --> 02:42:55,960
Speaker 3: it because you know, when we turn down that money,

2988
02:42:56,000 --> 02:42:59,480
Speaker 3: we we don't think any money is worth a lot,

2989
02:43:00,200 --> 02:43:05,160
Speaker 3: and you know we figured that, you know, we wanted

2990
02:43:05,160 --> 02:43:08,520
Speaker 3: to aim to raise the same amount of money but

2991
02:43:08,640 --> 02:43:11,760
Speaker 3: one dollar more, just to show that the truth is

2992
02:43:11,800 --> 02:43:14,240
Speaker 3: worth one dollar more than a lie. If not, they

2993
02:43:14,280 --> 02:43:18,200
Speaker 3: win in that respect, they'll never win. But at a

2994
02:43:18,240 --> 02:43:21,840
Speaker 3: message level, that was something that was important to us

2995
02:43:21,840 --> 02:43:23,760
Speaker 3: because we do feel that there is no price on

2996
02:43:23,840 --> 02:43:26,520
Speaker 3: the truth. If it's if they're offering you one dollar,

2997
02:43:26,640 --> 02:43:28,400
Speaker 3: it's probably not a truth that matters, so you don't

2998
02:43:28,440 --> 02:43:30,520
Speaker 3: need to take it. If they're offering you a trillion.

2999
02:43:31,120 --> 02:43:33,720
Speaker 3: It's probably especially the kind of truth that needs to

3000
02:43:33,720 --> 02:43:34,039
Speaker 3: come out.

3001
02:43:34,160 --> 02:43:35,760
Speaker 2: Amen, Rick, thank you.