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Speaker 1: Forward paced tribute to Black history are shared present, and
Speaker 1: an equitable future for all built for it. Proud we
Speaker 1: learned from the past, take action in the present, and
Speaker 1: impact the future. Ford honors African Americans who've made significant
Speaker 1: contributions in science, tech, engineering, and math. Ford is working
Speaker 1: towards empowering Black youth to continue innovating within these fields
Speaker 1: and giving thanks to individuals who have helped forward care
Speaker 1: aid automotive icons like the Bronco SUV and Thunderbird. Ford
Speaker 1: is proud to sponsor education initiatives that encourage future Black leaders.
Speaker 1: Our purpose is to help build a better world where
Speaker 1: every person is free to move and pursue their dreams.
Speaker 1: Ford pays tribute to Black history, are shared present, and
Speaker 1: an equitable future for all built Ford Proud. Hey, I'm
Speaker 1: Roy Wood Jr. Welcome to Beyond the Scenes, the podcast
Speaker 1: that goes a little deeper into topics and segments that
Speaker 1: are originally on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Today
Speaker 1: we are discussing a hot topic. You know that Super
Speaker 1: Bowl is coming up. We are discussing racist sports team names,
Speaker 1: especially the ones that are appropriating Native culture. So you know,
Speaker 1: the Washington football team changed their name is something different.
Speaker 1: So we're gonna break that down today. I have two
Speaker 1: guests to help me do that. The first one, this
Speaker 1: brother is a friend. This brother is a friend and
Speaker 1: been a fan of his work for a long long time.
Speaker 1: He's a sports journalist. He has a show coming to
Speaker 1: HBO a little later this spring that's gonna focus on
Speaker 1: the intersection of sports and race and gender and politics
Speaker 1: and economics. The show was called Game Theory. His name
Speaker 1: is Bow Money Jones. Bow How you doing today, brother
Speaker 1: good man? How are you? You got a little energy
Speaker 1: and your tank to talk racism? And I know you've
Speaker 1: been talking a lot of black racism. Got they got
Speaker 1: cracking on February one, It's gonna be a doozy. Also
Speaker 1: joining us today is the founder and executive director of Illuminative.
Speaker 1: It's a nonprofit organization that is focused on increasing Native
Speaker 1: and Indigenous visibility all across the spectrum, not just sports,
Speaker 1: but also entertainment, politics, all of that. She is a
Speaker 1: citizen of Pawny. Crystal Echo Hawk, Crystal Echo Hawk, I
Speaker 1: said it right the first time. I'm doing myself, Crystal,
Speaker 1: how are you doing today? I'm good, I'm good. I'm
Speaker 1: glad to be here with you guys. Thanks, thank you.
Speaker 1: So let's just dive right there in Crystal, I love
Speaker 1: to start with you. You know, the Washington football team
Speaker 1: they changed their name to the Commander's Um. You know what,
Speaker 1: what is your feelings? Let's let's just start right here.
Speaker 1: The day that you found out that the Washington football
Speaker 1: team had decided to just drop the original name and go, hey,
Speaker 1: give us a couple of years, we'll figure it out,
Speaker 1: but for now we won't carry that name anymore. What
Speaker 1: were your thoughts and feelings on that? I mean, it
Speaker 1: was really emotional, you know, I mean, you know, everybody
Speaker 1: kind of remembers back like Dan Snyder saying never you know,
Speaker 1: print that capital letters underscore this is never happening. Um.
Speaker 1: And you know, this has been a fight that's been
Speaker 1: happening for decades. I mean, starting back in the early sixties,
Speaker 1: right Suzanne Hard Joe really was one of the first
Speaker 1: person to really put this forward about you know, the
Speaker 1: team dropping this dictionary define racial slur. So that gives
Speaker 1: you a sense of the arc of how how long
Speaker 1: and how many generations have been fighting this you know,
Speaker 1: vicious battle. I mean, we were told by polsters going
Speaker 1: back in you will never win this mascot battle. Ever,
Speaker 1: Americans aren't behind Native people's on this. And so to
Speaker 1: see this moment fast forward to July, the announcement, it
Speaker 1: was it was incredibly emotional for for so many Native
Speaker 1: peoples across this country when we talk about ally ship,
Speaker 1: you know, and that announcement from you know, Washington football
Speaker 1: team owner Dan Snyder came, you know, on the back
Speaker 1: side of the Black Lives Matter movement, Beau Money, how
Speaker 1: much do you feel like that movement and I don't
Speaker 1: want to say helped, but in terms of just collectively
Speaker 1: as a country, we just all just put our foot
Speaker 1: down and just went, yo, we're not taking this in
Speaker 1: a matter of fact, here's a couple other things that
Speaker 1: need to change. Matter of fact, Cleveland Indians, y'all change
Speaker 1: y'all ship too. Can we talk a little bit Bow
Speaker 1: just about what are some of the ways you know,
Speaker 1: and Christal, I'd love to get an answer from you
Speaker 1: after Bow on ways that black people can be supportive
Speaker 1: of causes like this, or the ways that one group
Speaker 1: is able to draft off of another. Well, the way
Speaker 1: I think it helped on this one that I think
Speaker 1: was interesting when Washington made the decision to do this,
Speaker 1: and it was the same thing I felt about the
Speaker 1: state flag in Mississippi. We wasn't even really talking about
Speaker 1: that right, like you know, like like it just it
Speaker 1: out of nowhere. The Washington football team just popped up.
Speaker 1: It was like, you know, what time for change? Really?
Speaker 1: After all this kicking and streaming at his footsnopping and
Speaker 1: everything else, you just popped up and just decided you
Speaker 1: were gonna do it. And I think that's something that
Speaker 1: happened with those names with regard to this was a
Speaker 1: big part of the refusal to change these names. To me,
Speaker 1: it's has always been about white people just not letting
Speaker 1: nobody tell them what to do. Because it's not as
Speaker 1: though the Washington football team changed the name and a
Speaker 1: single solitary person whoever said I'll never watch them again
Speaker 1: if they change the name. Not a single one of
Speaker 1: them stopped. Right, They got all kinds of the reason
Speaker 1: not to watch that sorry football team. But every time
Speaker 1: somebody swears up and down they ain't never gonna go
Speaker 1: back and ain't gonna do anything else. And one of
Speaker 1: these teams they change the name and the people stay
Speaker 1: right like there's nothing to be lost, there's no money
Speaker 1: to be lost. They just don't like being told what
Speaker 1: to do. We've seen this come up in all these
Speaker 1: different ways, and so I think after George Floyd it
Speaker 1: led to kind of a broad look for a lot
Speaker 1: of corporate entities that a lot of things that they did.
Speaker 1: And I also think it was an opportunity for a
Speaker 1: lot of those entities to get out in front right,
Speaker 1: Like you can make the argument Mississippi, they took the
Speaker 1: flag down for? Somebody else did it for? And that
Speaker 1: was I thought, Yeah, But but that was what I
Speaker 1: thought was the most interesting part, because people have really, really,
Speaker 1: really been fighting for this for a very long time,
Speaker 1: and they just turned a deaf ear to it. And
Speaker 1: then one day this dude who swore he'd never do
Speaker 1: it under a measure of duress from a number of angles,
Speaker 1: just said, here's what I'll do. I'll just go ahead
Speaker 1: and change. Then they didn't even have no name. That's
Speaker 1: how you know they didn't have a plan. He was
Speaker 1: just like, all right, something, gonna change the name. It
Speaker 1: was like Prince, we will be a symbol for a while.
Speaker 1: And I approved it, Like that was about like if
Speaker 1: you were wait until you got the perfect name, you
Speaker 1: were never gonna do it. That was the one thing
Speaker 1: I gave him credit for. It's like he's gotta change
Speaker 1: what something else? What about nothing? Something else? Nothing works? Cool?
Speaker 1: Boom changed Crystal. This has always been an interesting I
Speaker 1: would say as a black person growing up in Alabama,
Speaker 1: racism is a very insular experience and that you were
Speaker 1: focused on your people and your struggling, your fight and
Speaker 1: your fight. And it wasn't until I got to Tallahassee
Speaker 1: and I went to Florida and m and we will
Speaker 1: go over to Florida State to do a little bit
Speaker 1: of drinking. From time to time, but you know what,
Speaker 1: the folks over there and we will see members of
Speaker 1: the Seminole Nation protesting outside of Dope Campbell Stadium. And
Speaker 1: that was really one of the first times, you know,
Speaker 1: and you're talking to seventeen year old while I was
Speaker 1: really being open to everything else that there things that
Speaker 1: I never thought about. And you know, you know that
Speaker 1: I came up in the nineties timahawk chop all of
Speaker 1: that nonsense. And so how can other groups, how can
Speaker 1: other people of color that are not part of your
Speaker 1: community make sure that we're supportive in a way that
Speaker 1: doesn't erase your fight or step in front of your fight,
Speaker 1: because that's the thing that black football money know what
Speaker 1: I'm talking about when you go to a black protests
Speaker 1: would be too many white people. Wait a minute, white lady,
Speaker 1: let me let me stem in front of you know,
Speaker 1: same thing in a Native protest. Right, Well, I might
Speaker 1: want to go back to something about Money said and
Speaker 1: like really recognize I mean like this, you know, this
Speaker 1: fight has been going for decades, right, and I think
Speaker 1: that's the majority majority Americans just thought this was because
Speaker 1: of George Floyd that this happened. No, you know, decades long,
Speaker 1: but it was unfortunately his death, right, it just it
Speaker 1: launched this perfect storm that that it all sudden. You
Speaker 1: remember the brands, Anthemima, everything started following, and I'll never
Speaker 1: forget the day on not Blackout Tuesday, and the team
Speaker 1: was like, worse, we stand against systemic racism, and it
Speaker 1: was a oct and then Congresswoman Holland that called the
Speaker 1: team out and it just launched a wave in right
Speaker 1: then if that simultaneously there was a Native organization that
Speaker 1: was started organizing those six billion dollars worth of investors,
Speaker 1: right that came in and started really like that was
Speaker 1: the nail in it that you know, Snyder knew, you know,
Speaker 1: that's it under dressed, right, This was not that they
Speaker 1: were willing to do it. So I just want to like,
Speaker 1: you know, just it's George Floyd, you know on so
Speaker 1: many levels, and we you know, it's just has such
Speaker 1: a special place in our hearts as Native peoples and
Speaker 1: like are his family, and just like really thinking about
Speaker 1: that moment. But I think it just said this moment
Speaker 1: where increasingly, I think hopefully as people of color were
Speaker 1: starting to see each other more and about where our
Speaker 1: struggles connect, you know, around this, and I think that
Speaker 1: was just like the key thing is like really understanding
Speaker 1: since more is this conversation about systemic racism and other
Speaker 1: in the ways that it's beginning to impact all of us.
Speaker 1: And I think it's really been an opportunity to start
Speaker 1: to educate, you know, lots of allies and people of
Speaker 1: color that the R word is the end word to us, right,
Speaker 1: And then I think there's like such a deep psychology
Speaker 1: in this country about playing Indian in the conquest, like
Speaker 1: that even when we shout from the rooftops, this is racist,
Speaker 1: we don't want this anymore, people like, well, you don't
Speaker 1: even know your own mind. We're honoring you, like you know,
Speaker 1: And I've watched yesterday with the Washington announcement. They released
Speaker 1: a video yesterday they said the R word probably two
Speaker 1: dozen times in their new video announcing the new name,
Speaker 1: and it was like, really this dog whistle, And I
Speaker 1: just thought, you know what, what if they had said
Speaker 1: the N word twenty times in that same video, nobody
Speaker 1: would have stood for it. But yeah, yesterday, you know,
Speaker 1: it was just showing that the team, I don't think
Speaker 1: it's clearly not taking this seriously. They have not learned
Speaker 1: their lessons. If that was part of their rollout, and
Speaker 1: so I think it's you know, it's frustrating, but I
Speaker 1: do feel like we've really begun to make headway and
Speaker 1: where people are beginning to really understand this issue and
Speaker 1: where Native peoples are coming from. More so to that point,
Speaker 1: Crystal Beaumani, just to show how a hit or the
Speaker 1: curve you've been on talking about this problem in profession
Speaker 1: of sports, what was that five six years ago where
Speaker 1: you wore the Caucasian shirt April of Yeah, the Cleveland's
Speaker 1: team before they changed their name to the Guardians. You somehow,
Speaker 1: I don't know where you procured a whitewashed face of
Speaker 1: Cleveland's mascot and you had on a shirt to head
Speaker 1: the Cleveland Caucasians, and boy, they was mad at you.
Speaker 1: So we need to address the elephant in the room.
Speaker 1: Your T shirt is dominating the social media conversation right
Speaker 1: now amongst our viewers. What motivated you to wear? It
Speaker 1: was clean? I got they double what The fact that
Speaker 1: it was clean was a good start. The other part
Speaker 1: is I really liked the shirt. I think it's funny.
Speaker 1: It's like it's just like the Cleveland Indian shirt, like
Speaker 1: exactly the same as the Cleveland Indian shirt, which just
Speaker 1: one small change. Yeah, that's it. This is the same
Speaker 1: thing that goes on with the logo for the Cleveland Indians, right,
Speaker 1: So like to have a problem with the logo of
Speaker 1: this would be to have a problem with the Indians.
Speaker 1: But if you're quiet about the Indians and now you've
Speaker 1: got something to say about my shirt, I think it
Speaker 1: started for introspection. Who's brilliant? What point were you because
Speaker 1: you weren't even on the show that day to talk
Speaker 1: about baseball. I was telling about some other stuff. I
Speaker 1: wasn't even trying to prove no point though, Like that's
Speaker 1: the thing about it that was so interesting to me
Speaker 1: because I had that shirt for a long time, Like
Speaker 1: I've worn it in public. Like it wasn't like I
Speaker 1: have a shirt for this very occasion, right, I was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: this shirt's funny. The point to me was obvious, Like
Speaker 1: I don't think I was because people have been saying
Speaker 1: these things so long. I didn't think I was offering
Speaker 1: anything deep or profound, right, Like I wasn't hitting anybody
Speaker 1: with anything that they hadn't heard before. To me, it
Speaker 1: was just a funny shirt, that was all it is.
Speaker 1: Like I am absolutely not a hero on this because
Speaker 1: I did not do the math and realized what it
Speaker 1: might turn into when people saw it. And so as
Speaker 1: much as we talk about people being mad about it,
Speaker 1: kind of right, like, I didn't have any problems at work,
Speaker 1: nobody gave. The only talk they had with me was like, look,
Speaker 1: it's it's the shirt is dominating the show and that's
Speaker 1: a problem. So if you could zip your hoodie up
Speaker 1: around it, which I thought was a reason, but I
Speaker 1: thought that was a reasonable thing to say, Like, if
Speaker 1: you're producing a television show and one thing is taken
Speaker 1: away from the actual television show, then okay, I've done
Speaker 1: this for an hour, right, Like, I get it. I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna fight you about it. And so I went
Speaker 1: ahead and did that. But it was a lot of people,
Speaker 1: rather than saying they were mad, a lot of I'm
Speaker 1: not mad. You're not owning me. You thought you were
Speaker 1: going to make me mad, but no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not over here mad. I'm like, bro, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: even think about you. So like maybe they were mad.
Speaker 1: But one thing I felt like I learned in that
Speaker 1: is we give too much country to the loudest, angriest people.
Speaker 1: Because overwhelmingly what I got in response to that will support,
Speaker 1: like the significant majority of the people that I heard
Speaker 1: back from, like WHOA, this is so cool, WHOA, this
Speaker 1: is so cool, WHOA, so thanks for standing, like all
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. I think the negative stuff was
Speaker 1: actually a minority and probably a small part of it.
Speaker 1: Like I think there was actually a bit more popular
Speaker 1: support behind this because in the end, people just don't
Speaker 1: really care like that that was the problem. Is that
Speaker 1: having a native mascot, they didn't even give that any thought,
Speaker 1: Like to them, it's not an overt oppressive act. It's
Speaker 1: just like, oh, we want to make this the name
Speaker 1: of our team. And if they didn't do that, they
Speaker 1: name it after an animal, And yeah, it's really problematic
Speaker 1: that they see those two things is being the same.
Speaker 1: But I don't think that Americans have a real passionate
Speaker 1: about it, Like this is much more about the kind
Speaker 1: of passive racism that exists and that people just left
Speaker 1: slide because it's what they've always done. Like the football
Speaker 1: team in Washington depart that nobody talks about it is
Speaker 1: they are historically sorry. Like if you're my age, you
Speaker 1: remember when they won those three Super Bowls but that's
Speaker 1: basically the only time they've been good, and they were
Speaker 1: the longest segregated franchise in the NFL and subsequently one
Speaker 1: of the worst franchise in the NFL for basically up
Speaker 1: until like nineteen seventy they had two good coaches. So
Speaker 1: my point being, this name is actually attached to far
Speaker 1: more losing than it was ever attached to winning. They
Speaker 1: were just holding on because they got for bid. They
Speaker 1: let anybody else tell them what to do. I wonder
Speaker 1: what it would be like that if you put that
Speaker 1: Caucasians T shirt on right now again, because it is
Speaker 1: next level now from when the first one you did
Speaker 1: that first time to now and where people that guy
Speaker 1: who makes those shirts has a picture of me up
Speaker 1: in his house. Um because that show. I was all yeah,
Speaker 1: because that showed that that was all and aired it
Speaker 1: from six to ten Eastern, and so he wakes up
Speaker 1: at like seven o'clock or seven thirty and he's like, huh,
Speaker 1: let me go see if we got any orders in overnight. Whoa,
Speaker 1: And it just completely like and I sur promised. I
Speaker 1: really didn't think that this was going to happen like that.
Speaker 1: I was just sitting there blissfully unaware, and then it
Speaker 1: was like, oh, this is a thing so crystal to
Speaker 1: Money's point of just how conversations grow and the ground
Speaker 1: swell starts. It may the German nation may have been
Speaker 1: one thing, but it blows up into something else. Talk
Speaker 1: to us a little bit about Illuminatives and what you
Speaker 1: all do, because this is a much bigger discussion than sports.
Speaker 1: When we're talking about discrimination in the perpetuation of stereotypes
Speaker 1: against the natives. What does your company do to fight
Speaker 1: some of those stereotypes. Just talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: Illuminative for yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, Illuminative is
Speaker 1: founded on research, right, and I think it was just
Speaker 1: you know, I've been an organizer, activist my whole life,
Speaker 1: you know, working in Indian country, and I think just
Speaker 1: throughout life and talking to so many different Native people,
Speaker 1: like we constantly feel like invisible, right, We're not showing
Speaker 1: up anywhere. People aren't taken us seriously, and if we
Speaker 1: you know, when we come out on anything, it's like
Speaker 1: we're reduced to a character caricature. So we did this
Speaker 1: research to really look at, you know, what are the
Speaker 1: dominant perceptions and narratives that Americans have about Native people,
Speaker 1: why do they have these perceptions and how do they
Speaker 1: affect the way that Native peoples are treated? And so
Speaker 1: what we found is that nearly eight percent of Americans
Speaker 1: don't know anything about us, right, And depending on where
Speaker 1: you live in the country, there are pockets of this
Speaker 1: country that aren't even sure if we exist anymore, because
Speaker 1: if you're not in proximity to a reservation, right, then
Speaker 1: you're just and then we're not representative media. Our representation
Speaker 1: and media is less than point four percent, right, and
Speaker 1: nine of schools in this country up until very recently,
Speaker 1: you know, don't teach about in the American's past nineteen hundred.
Speaker 1: So you literally Americans almost conditioned right coming out of
Speaker 1: K through twelve. And then when if you don't see
Speaker 1: us in the media, you don't see us in TV
Speaker 1: and film, that we don't we cease to exist certainly
Speaker 1: as a contemporary people, right, we exist in the past,
Speaker 1: and what little representation that kind of eats through is
Speaker 1: typically pre nineteen hundred if it's TV and film, you know,
Speaker 1: and people can literally have a very hard time conceiving
Speaker 1: of Native people's in a contemporary context. So as we
Speaker 1: began to learn that and really unpack that. We realized,
Speaker 1: you know, working with a lot of social psychologists and
Speaker 1: people looking at certain things, that it affects the way
Speaker 1: that we're treated. It really perpetuates discrimination and racism against
Speaker 1: Native people to think that we don't exist, we're out
Speaker 1: of sight, out of mind, and in the few things
Speaker 1: that kind of conditioned to you know, inform the way
Speaker 1: people think about us are things like racist sports mascots.
Speaker 1: Like Nielsen did a poll last year, fifty percent of
Speaker 1: the fans polled said that the only time they see
Speaker 1: anything related to Native people's is if they're watching, you know,
Speaker 1: one of these teams with their mascots, right, and that's
Speaker 1: people in red face turkey feathers act in a fool
Speaker 1: that has nothing to do with really Native cultures and
Speaker 1: Native people. So, you know, we realized, you know, with
Speaker 1: this research that we representation truly matters. That is not
Speaker 1: just a catchphrase, right, because the way that we show
Speaker 1: up and presented, you know, in the world really conditions
Speaker 1: the way that we're treated, and not just in day
Speaker 1: to day life, the way the courts treat us, Congress
Speaker 1: treats us, you know, the way there our children are
Speaker 1: treated in school, so really illuminative fights to you know,
Speaker 1: fights against systemic racism and fights against the erasure. Right.
Speaker 1: We fight against these toxic stereotypes and false narratives, and
Speaker 1: we really work to amplify who Native people's are today
Speaker 1: and our issues, our points of view and in key
Speaker 1: spaces like pop culture, in media and also politics. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'm trying to think both, you know, and granted
Speaker 1: this is an Alabama school system pre CRT. Native representation
Speaker 1: in history is Thanksgiving and cowboys and Indians, and I
Speaker 1: think after that, it's just a mystery. What happens to
Speaker 1: natives after that? Like there's not much. And then in
Speaker 1: TV it was always you're the sidekick or you're the
Speaker 1: magical Yota type. Go here and here's some wisdom. Now
Speaker 1: go forward and go do the thing that you need
Speaker 1: to do. Yeah, like the Native homie and the crew.
Speaker 1: It just doesn't come up on a lot of television show,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like like like and that
Speaker 1: and that. But that's the thing that you know, when
Speaker 1: you talk about the representation, like you really get to
Speaker 1: a point on this stuff for somebody's just there and
Speaker 1: that part of them is not a plot device, you know,
Speaker 1: it's not like something we're gonna go to for a
Speaker 1: joke all the time. And I think it's one of
Speaker 1: those things that's easy for people to not think of.
Speaker 1: And I think the point you made especially depending upon
Speaker 1: what part of the country that you live in where
Speaker 1: you're just not going to encounter native people, um, And
Speaker 1: it can be what part of like a county that
Speaker 1: you live in, Like I think of a place like
Speaker 1: Paul b County of Florida, for example, that as you're
Speaker 1: getting towards the beach, you have no idea that the
Speaker 1: west side of that county is a lot more Native
Speaker 1: than you would have thought of, right, And the world's
Speaker 1: kind of don't meet and don't come together. And that's
Speaker 1: a significant part I think of the problem that you
Speaker 1: have is that it is very easy to think of
Speaker 1: Native Americans or Native people. Excuse me, it's just like
Speaker 1: history because like you talked about in school. I know
Speaker 1: it came up in our Texas history class and seventh grade,
Speaker 1: you know, because they had somebody was here right like
Speaker 1: they they ain't gotten past the point acting like they
Speaker 1: showed up and it was like, wow, look at it.
Speaker 1: Pick it whatever whatever desk you want, right like it
Speaker 1: wasn't one of those situations, right, Like they at least
Speaker 1: acknowledged that part, and then you get to trail of
Speaker 1: tears and they're like done with that, like when you
Speaker 1: I'm willing to bet that if you ask most people
Speaker 1: about what they learned in history, it is that the
Speaker 1: trail of tears is where it stops. But think about,
Speaker 1: like metaphorically, what that means. We are saying, we got
Speaker 1: them up out of here and there's nothing left to
Speaker 1: discuss exactly. After the break, I want to talk a
Speaker 1: little bit more about the Shington football team and the
Speaker 1: Cleveland Guardians and what they got right and wrong in
Speaker 1: their transitions, and also Christal, I want to talk to
Speaker 1: you about some of these other teams that are still
Speaker 1: holding it down Dan Snyder style and saying we ain't
Speaker 1: never changing racism today, racism tomorrow, racism forever. I'm not
Speaker 1: sure if that's how they said it, but that's basically
Speaker 1: you broke out a George Wallace quote. Bro. I would
Speaker 1: love to see somebody like do a series, because every
Speaker 1: southern state has their George Wallace is like it's a
Speaker 1: different person in everyone, like the one standout racist right
Speaker 1: right right, Georgia has less thematics. I mean, hell of
Speaker 1: a competition in Mississippi. I don't know who ultimately becomes
Speaker 1: the chappion in that battle. Royal Texas like that to Texas.
Speaker 1: They got one. We had a Royal rubble it. This
Speaker 1: is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. Roses are red.
Speaker 1: She shot six times and violets are blue. It's almost
Speaker 1: like her dream man came into her life. Are you
Speaker 1: looking for love? I do anything for us and a
Speaker 1: little murder too. She would kill her own daughters to
Speaker 1: get away with it. He has a weapon, dropped the
Speaker 1: gun In honor of Valentine's Day. Listen to Crazy and
Speaker 1: Love the entire month of February on the I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: What can I say? Love made me crazy? Did you
Speaker 1: know that on the day Doctor King was shot, the
Speaker 1: all black security detail normally assigned to him was called off.
Speaker 1: They're the ones who would not allow him to stay
Speaker 1: at any hotel with balconies. That security union was reassigned.
Speaker 1: I was a man there, and did you know that
Speaker 1: on the day Doctor King was shot, two black fireman
Speaker 1: stationed across the street and one black police detective who
Speaker 1: is surveiling king. We're all taken off the job. What
Speaker 1: was the emergency that caused usually moved? Did you ever
Speaker 1: ask what this was all about? And then this is
Speaker 1: the MLK tapes. The first episodes are available now listen
Speaker 1: on the I Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Crystal, I'll start with you, how
Speaker 1: do you feel about the new name? Commanders to the
Speaker 1: army and we're in judge. You know, the same army
Speaker 1: that told them Indians didn't get on out of here?
Speaker 1: What did they get right? What did they get wrong?
Speaker 1: During this supposed two year learning period and reflection and
Speaker 1: studying and speaking with members of your community. Well, I
Speaker 1: have to say I'm enjoying all the memes. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just been hilarious, like gut laughs, right, and people's
Speaker 1: reactions to the name, And you know, I'm kind of
Speaker 1: like whatever I mean at this point. You know, I
Speaker 1: think we were just so focused on the team not
Speaker 1: having coming up with a name that had anything to
Speaker 1: do with Native people's right. So I mean, honestly, I
Speaker 1: could care less. I mean, that's for the Washington bands
Speaker 1: and everyone else. Delitigate and laugh at you know, the commandoes.
Speaker 1: I mean, everybody was enjoying all the things yesterday. What
Speaker 1: did they get right? I mean, I think they definitely
Speaker 1: did go talk to Native people, right, like dozens, you know,
Speaker 1: a couple dozen Native peoples, and I think they did
Speaker 1: focus groups. The team met with us last spring, right, um,
Speaker 1: and you know, I think that they I felt like
Speaker 1: they heard us right and just kind of people, you know,
Speaker 1: and even knowing where some of the options they were
Speaker 1: looking at around wolves and different things. I mean, they
Speaker 1: really did have some conversations and I felt like they
Speaker 1: listened right, just stay away from a bunch of things,
Speaker 1: and like, you know, so whatever direction they ended up
Speaker 1: with this military thing, I mean, that's a whole X
Speaker 1: level discussion. Um, you know, right, I mean, but I
Speaker 1: mean I think finally, you know, I can tell you
Speaker 1: up until the last minute, Native peoples were holding their
Speaker 1: breasts because we just don't trust them, right, like what
Speaker 1: are they going to pull? And um, so I think
Speaker 1: we were relieved it had nothing to do with us.
Speaker 1: But again, watching the rollout yesterday and seeing that video,
Speaker 1: I had a former reporter send it to me last night,
Speaker 1: like fit to be tied. I mean, it just was
Speaker 1: this dog whistle and it was kind of this wink wink,
Speaker 1: nudge nudge to the fans around that name. And it's
Speaker 1: just like really showed that that, you know, internally that organization,
Speaker 1: they still don't get it. They still don't get that
Speaker 1: this was like the most disgusting racist term ever in
Speaker 1: the harm that they created. And so you know, they're
Speaker 1: on my call list today to kind of like, you know,
Speaker 1: on the one hand, you're telling Native people's list, but
Speaker 1: here's your actions. Again, there's just clearly some things and
Speaker 1: that inside that franchise that have not changed, and you know,
Speaker 1: and I think that they got a lot more to do.
Speaker 1: They haven't apologized, and if you actually look at so
Speaker 1: much of the announced and roll out, there's really no recognition,
Speaker 1: right they sort of dance around why they had to
Speaker 1: actually change the name. It's like, you know, now like oh,
Speaker 1: we wanted to do this almost right and kind of
Speaker 1: embracing it. And I think you look at all the
Speaker 1: Native leaders commenting yesterday saying this is not enough. Where's
Speaker 1: our apology, where's the apology to the activists that they
Speaker 1: harassed and targeted, like Susanne Hardjoe and Amanda black Horse, Right,
Speaker 1: I mean disgusting, really vile, vicious behavior that you know,
Speaker 1: they were like death threats against some of these activists,
Speaker 1: you know, And what are they going to do that
Speaker 1: ninety years of racism that they perpetuated, like overnight, everything's okay. No,
Speaker 1: And I think that's where you know, Native People's Indian
Speaker 1: Country is like, we're going to still work to hold
Speaker 1: this team accountable. Well, I think in line with that,
Speaker 1: I think that there's something fundamental to like this team
Speaker 1: has historically believed. And this goes back to the nineteen
Speaker 1: fifties and sixties with their segregation. They have historically believed
Speaker 1: that their fans like little racism, right, Like the argument
Speaker 1: against integrating the team for George Preston Marshall was that
Speaker 1: our fans don't want black players on our team. Right.
Speaker 1: They have made this guess, right, And I always wondered
Speaker 1: anybody who say they never watched that team again, Uh,
Speaker 1: if they ever had black people, then I think it's
Speaker 1: seventeen years later, Doug Williams wins the Super Bowl with them,
Speaker 1: and I bet they were all sitting there watching. But
Speaker 1: they operate on this assumption that people like this, like
Speaker 1: they believe that their fans think this is all better
Speaker 1: with the little racism. Again, it's short. Seems that whenever
Speaker 1: they change these things, the world keeps on spinning and
Speaker 1: nobody does anything. And so I've always wondered, like when
Speaker 1: they decided they're gonna come up with a new name
Speaker 1: of what they were going to do, if they did,
Speaker 1: in part, feel like they had to give a little
Speaker 1: nudge to be like, don't worry, We're still We're still
Speaker 1: with you, right, Like, fundamentally the audience for them is
Speaker 1: white people, and I feel like race so often in
Speaker 1: this country, as is discussed by white people between white people,
Speaker 1: it's just kind of something to talk about, like, you know,
Speaker 1: you root for this team. I root for this team,
Speaker 1: and in the end we go home and we're all
Speaker 1: still friends. We just root for different teams because it
Speaker 1: don't mean the same thing to them, Like ultimately, when
Speaker 1: it comes down to it, it's not it doesn't have
Speaker 1: the same gravity. It's not as serious, you know when
Speaker 1: it comes in. And so that to me, I thought
Speaker 1: was a huge part of the Washington story that gets
Speaker 1: lost is a lot of this is on Snyder as
Speaker 1: it was on Cook before him, as it was on
Speaker 1: the Marshall's before them. But at some point, as fans,
Speaker 1: you gotta stand up and just kind of be like, yo,
Speaker 1: why do y'all think we saw racist? Or just say
Speaker 1: that you are? But they definitely think that you are.
Speaker 1: And if I say somebody these people being racist, everybody
Speaker 1: want to call march about it. These teams tell you
Speaker 1: that they think you're racist, and you're like a little bit.
Speaker 1: Maybe was there the same feeling crystal of insincere sincerity
Speaker 1: from the Cleveland Guardians when they changed their name because
Speaker 1: they got roasted to because everybody's like gout and named
Speaker 1: the team after two statues that look over the traffic
Speaker 1: kind of smelt like they didn't have a plan either,
Speaker 1: bo Um. You know, I mean I think they had
Speaker 1: a really different process, right, you know again, I think
Speaker 1: then to Washington, I mean again, you know, it's a
Speaker 1: whole other thing. I mean, I think, you know, for
Speaker 1: the for the for Native people's, particularly people living in
Speaker 1: a Cleveland area. I mean, it was just a long,
Speaker 1: hard fought battle and they were just relieved again, you know,
Speaker 1: to finally that the name was getting away from it. Um.
Speaker 1: But it was a much more closed process um, you know,
Speaker 1: but I mean I just think there's it's just not
Speaker 1: the same level of vitriol, right, and just I mean
Speaker 1: they were never as nasty as the Washington team and
Speaker 1: their leadership, right, So I think it's just, you know,
Speaker 1: it's kind of looked at in a different way. I
Speaker 1: don't think with the same kind of distrust. And you know,
Speaker 1: and I think today looking you know, reading through all
Speaker 1: the social media around Indian country, people are pissed at
Speaker 1: the team, you know. I mean, even though we're relieved,
Speaker 1: it's just still like so evident that I don't think
Speaker 1: that they've really learned. And why do you put it, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's that's their legacy. And if you watch
Speaker 1: the video, their legacy is nothing but showing the R word,
Speaker 1: and that is I mean, it was really like, wow,
Speaker 1: it was a wink wink, you know, non to that.
Speaker 1: And it's just it's you know, the NFL, we know,
Speaker 1: has a little bit of a racism problem. And there's
Speaker 1: the understatement because I'm curious about this with Cleveland because
Speaker 1: to me, you know, I'm speaking from obviously a bit
Speaker 1: of a comfortable distance, and like when I hear Indian,
Speaker 1: I hear Indian like I hear colored right, like it's
Speaker 1: an antiquity that's born in a bunch of stuff, but
Speaker 1: not a slur in the same way as we talk
Speaker 1: about these other things. The thing with me with them
Speaker 1: was always wah Who, which, by the way, they had
Speaker 1: If you don't know, they have evolved, there's been various
Speaker 1: forms of way Who. This form of wah who that
Speaker 1: the last worth of Chief wa Who. The mascot they
Speaker 1: had is actually progressively less offensive than like the two
Speaker 1: or three InCAR nations that had come up previous, like
Speaker 1: they had held onto that was always the one where
Speaker 1: I'm like, you got this thing on the head, you
Speaker 1: can't do that, like like that was always the most Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was always the most indefensible part. And then that
Speaker 1: last year when they looked like they might almost went
Speaker 1: the World Series, they had one of the old timers
Speaker 1: from the nine forty eight World Series team come back
Speaker 1: and he had one of the antiquated Cleveland Chief Waho,
Speaker 1: and I was floored. It was the mascot as much
Speaker 1: as anything else that they held on people like, look,
Speaker 1: can you move off from this? Look? Can you move
Speaker 1: off from this? Can you move off from this? And
Speaker 1: at points teams. It seemed at points that there would
Speaker 1: be times the leadership was like, yeah, we can do
Speaker 1: this because they're gonna sell new stuff. They were just
Speaker 1: so afraid of these angry fans and what in the
Speaker 1: world are these fans gonna do? And I'm like, do
Speaker 1: you know anything about Cleveland sports fans? Do you see
Speaker 1: the losers? They have attached themselves too for decades and
Speaker 1: you think they go quit you over this? Are you serious?
Speaker 1: But they just refused to let go of that part,
Speaker 1: and that to me was just it was just always
Speaker 1: so striking that nothing was quite like that, because I
Speaker 1: feel like, and I could be wrong here, but I
Speaker 1: feel like the best way to get people to not
Speaker 1: pay that much attention to your native mascot, it's if
Speaker 1: your uniforms are attractive. So the Chicago Blackhawks managed to
Speaker 1: dodge this in a bit of a unique way. They
Speaker 1: have very striking jerseys. Like I'm not saying that they're
Speaker 1: not problematic. I'm saying visually, they are striking. The Braids
Speaker 1: have had those uniforms that they've been wearing now since seven.
Speaker 1: You can't think of very many teams that have had
Speaker 1: uniforms the same without any fundamental change to them that long,
Speaker 1: like they found a design and they stuck with it.
Speaker 1: The Chiefs same way somehow. I granted their names are
Speaker 1: a little different, it's not you know, it's not the
Speaker 1: same as the R word and all of these things,
Speaker 1: But those are the ones that get to skate. If
Speaker 1: we don't think your gear is hot, we're telling you
Speaker 1: that you've got to get this stuff out of here,
Speaker 1: you know, I think that's part of it, right, But
Speaker 1: I mean, just one point I want to make, Like
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times what people don't understand,
Speaker 1: and I'm glad you bring this up, is it's not
Speaker 1: always about the name, right. I mean, like the R word,
Speaker 1: that's like that was the next level, right, people like chiefs,
Speaker 1: braves like black hawks. Come on, what's Native people's problems here?
Speaker 1: And it is it's about the imagery, right, But it's
Speaker 1: also about the racist sports fan behavior that starts spinning
Speaker 1: out from it. The red face right, red face the
Speaker 1: equivalent to blackface right, the turkey feathers, the drum, the
Speaker 1: tomahawk chop, all these things that mimic and mock Native people.
Speaker 1: That has nothing to do with anything related to traditional
Speaker 1: Native culture. So it's really this ecosystem that radiates out,
Speaker 1: even from a name that might not on face value
Speaker 1: look like it's offensive, it's it's it's every the culture
Speaker 1: that radiates out, or the way that rival fans will
Speaker 1: use hate speech right when they're cheering against those teams,
Speaker 1: that ends up being hate, racist speech against Native Americans.
Speaker 1: And Chris, I'll tell you something I didn't know. I
Speaker 1: did not realize until very recently that like sports teams
Speaker 1: that are the Warriors, that that was basically a euphemism
Speaker 1: for previous Native names. Like I was on a literal
Speaker 1: league team when I was nine years old that was
Speaker 1: called Warriors, and he hit me one day. It was
Speaker 1: navy blue with red letters across. We were the Cleveland Indians.
Speaker 1: I had no idea the Golden State Warriors in basketball.
Speaker 1: I had no idea this one. They were selling the
Speaker 1: old gear on the website and I looked at it
Speaker 1: and you would be shocked if you looked at what
Speaker 1: it was like. It was just terribly savage Native imagery
Speaker 1: um from like the nineteen fifties. I had no idea
Speaker 1: that this that they ever had this era because I
Speaker 1: did not think of Warriors in that way. And What
Speaker 1: was so funny about it was my producer on my
Speaker 1: podcast pointed it out to me and I said wow,
Speaker 1: and we talked about it on the podcast and sent
Speaker 1: a link out a right after you talk to me
Speaker 1: about it, I sent a link out on Twitter that
Speaker 1: was like, wow, I had no idea of this. Within
Speaker 1: I want to say, a half hour, it was down
Speaker 1: from the NBA store, like nobody had noticed it was.
Speaker 1: It was just literally nobody noticed it was there. And
Speaker 1: I was the one person to be like, yo, this
Speaker 1: is bananas, and then we but the link was gone,
Speaker 1: like they might still sell some of that stuff, but
Speaker 1: right fast that link was gone because they had just
Speaker 1: been skating and I had no clue that that was
Speaker 1: where all the stor So then that brings me to
Speaker 1: this last question before we go to the break. Where
Speaker 1: does economics fit into this resistance to change, both because
Speaker 1: a lot of teams don't want to change because they
Speaker 1: think that the fans are gonna be angry. Like right now,
Speaker 1: the chiefs are starting to get a little bit of pressure,
Speaker 1: and they said, like, I think, like back we were
Speaker 1: meeting with members of that community and we are trying
Speaker 1: to make sure and figure out a way and we
Speaker 1: are not racist. Just give us a little time to
Speaker 1: figure it out. But they haven't done anything since any
Speaker 1: of those conversations. How much does the economic model of
Speaker 1: sports play into these teams believing that if they change,
Speaker 1: the fans will leave and we's gonna be broke. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't think it's economics. I think it's just white supremacy,
Speaker 1: to be perfectly honest, like all the things that the
Speaker 1: NFL expected us to put up with at every turn,
Speaker 1: and they think that's gonna be the one to make
Speaker 1: people suddenly stop coming to watch these games. But that
Speaker 1: make no sense, right Like they if they have told
Speaker 1: us over and over again that they believe that no
Speaker 1: matter what we do, don't you worry that people gonna
Speaker 1: show up? As long as you're saying the stars Bank
Speaker 1: of Battle before the game and shows a lood of
Speaker 1: the military, um, then people gonna come to the games.
Speaker 1: So they don't think really that this is gonna stop.
Speaker 1: They might be mad for a little while, but they
Speaker 1: got no problem doing things that made people mad economically
Speaker 1: my thought, and this is clear unless you were like
Speaker 1: the Green Bay Packers or the Dallas Cowboys, and you
Speaker 1: have this brand that is just immutable and so strong,
Speaker 1: and that if you change it, it really like fundamentally
Speaker 1: alters the experience that people have with Yeah, like if
Speaker 1: you want of those otherwise you just changed the name
Speaker 1: and sell most stuff and get more bread and then
Speaker 1: bring the other stuff back into the throatback if you
Speaker 1: want to, and figure out some way to do that.
Speaker 1: Like I've always thought that the economics would encourage a
Speaker 1: change in this, and now I just think that they
Speaker 1: ain't about to let nobody tell them what to do.
Speaker 1: And what I thought was the most instructive thing about
Speaker 1: the period after George Floyd. Look how much work we
Speaker 1: got done when we stopped caring about mad people. Right,
Speaker 1: it was a month and change where you didn't worry
Speaker 1: about if it made Wifeles mad, and we got a
Speaker 1: lot done. And they didn't even actually get that mad.
Speaker 1: I mean that was in January six. But other than that,
Speaker 1: but that was didn't didn't get bad or right. Maybe
Speaker 1: they was right and there weren't no place else for
Speaker 1: them to go, but they but they laid low for
Speaker 1: for the summer of twit twity. We was body and
Speaker 1: they was like let him, let let them get it out.
Speaker 1: Let CHRISTI why do fans hold onto this, Why isn't
Speaker 1: there something else that they could find that's less racist,
Speaker 1: that represents their town. What does it say about people
Speaker 1: when they have an inability to just let go of
Speaker 1: something like in Cleveland, they're still artists that sell chief
Speaker 1: wa who stuff. They I'm painting what I want to paint.
Speaker 1: You ain't gonna tell me what to do. What does
Speaker 1: that say about our society when people think that the
Speaker 1: identity of the team belongs to them and not to
Speaker 1: your people. I mean, it just goes to show how
Speaker 1: like again going back into the psychology of this country
Speaker 1: and like the deep like master meta narratives that are
Speaker 1: around this, It's like there's something about playing Native. It's
Speaker 1: just such like it feels like an entitlement and right,
Speaker 1: and it's like it's about anything goes. It doesn't matter
Speaker 1: what Native people say we do. You can come take
Speaker 1: our land, you can take our culture, you can take
Speaker 1: our women, you can take everything. And that is like
Speaker 1: a deeply embedded part of this nationalistic identity and white supremacy.
Speaker 1: It is. I mean, so when you talk to any
Speaker 1: activist Native activists that is working on these issues, at
Speaker 1: some point you have received death threats. You've received threats
Speaker 1: of violence, and it's just like, what, this is a
Speaker 1: damned sports team. This is like seriously, You're like, I
Speaker 1: got a threat this morning on Instagram and it's like,
Speaker 1: what is it about this dude in Kansas that he's like,
Speaker 1: you know, losing his mind about this name change? And
Speaker 1: I think it really speaks to the heart of white supremacy,
Speaker 1: this white nationalist identity that unfortunately it's just getting fed
Speaker 1: and and really getting bigger and bigger, and it's just, um,
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's stunning to me, right, but it is.
Speaker 1: It's a deep psychology of white supremacy, of which has
Speaker 1: a lot to do about conquering Native people's and taking um.
Speaker 1: That is just you know, it's it's what we're fighting
Speaker 1: against constantly. After the break, Crystal, I want to talk
Speaker 1: with you more about your research and the things that
Speaker 1: you all have planned for the future and around the
Speaker 1: corner and bo money, Um, I want to talk with
Speaker 1: you a little bit about the same thing, because you know,
Speaker 1: you have for a long time, on a number of
Speaker 1: various platforms, been trying to wield that sledge ham of
Speaker 1: justice and you already did. I didn't even know that story.
Speaker 1: I didn't know you cut off somebody's money on the
Speaker 1: NBA dot com merch story. It was gold. So I
Speaker 1: know that there's a lot that you have to do
Speaker 1: as a member of the media and bringing these topics
Speaker 1: to light. And I think that YouTube there's a synergy there,
Speaker 1: and I want to talk about what that struggle is
Speaker 1: will wrap up on the other side of the break.
Speaker 1: This is beyond the scenes. Hi. My name is Cassidy
Speaker 1: Zachary and I am April Callaghan, and we are fashion
Speaker 1: historian and co hosts and the creators of the podcast
Speaker 1: Dressed the History of Fashion, which is dedicated to investigating
Speaker 1: the significance of dress from throughout his street and around
Speaker 1: the world. And we are so excited to bring you
Speaker 1: a brand new season celebrating groundbreaking fashion figures and explain
Speaker 1: the history of everything from courses to blue jeans. Dressed
Speaker 1: the History of Fashion is available on the I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever else you listen to
Speaker 1: your favorite shows. New episodes drop every Tuesday and Thursday.
Speaker 1: The Black Effect presents I didn't know, maybe you didn't either,
Speaker 1: but the history of black people ain't rooted in slavery.
Speaker 1: Oh no, is royalty, not despair. Beat out here and
Speaker 1: every day in February, I will give you a black
Speaker 1: history fact that I didn't know, and maybe you didn't either.
Speaker 1: It's a rugged, ratchet, realistic look at history. Listen. So
Speaker 1: I didn't know, maybe you didn't either. On the Black
Speaker 1: Effect Podcast Network, our Heart radio app, Apple Podcast, or
Speaker 1: just wherever you get your podcast from, we have had
Speaker 1: a very spirited conversation about native imagery in professional sports.
Speaker 1: Crystal is here and her company is Illuminative, and your company,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of you use you do what people
Speaker 1: need not because it's not enough to just go something racist.
Speaker 1: You got to have data. You've got to have numbers.
Speaker 1: You've got to have statistics because then people go, Okay,
Speaker 1: now you tell intric See I didn't believe you before
Speaker 1: from just being a member of that community. You got data.
Speaker 1: Talk to us a little bit about the future of
Speaker 1: your company and how you all are measuring. How do
Speaker 1: you measure what's wrong and then how do you measure
Speaker 1: when you think it's changing? You know, what's the future
Speaker 1: look like for your company? Yeah? Well, I mean I
Speaker 1: think when we think about the future of eliminated, we're
Speaker 1: just thinking about the future of our Native people's right,
Speaker 1: and it's about how we're building power through representations. So
Speaker 1: you know, despite everything that we've talked about about Washington, right,
Speaker 1: that's a victory for Native people's at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, right as we start knocking these things down.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, like so much of the
Speaker 1: work that we have done is really to advocate, for example,
Speaker 1: in entertainment and media right about the need for more
Speaker 1: Native stories and TV and film, more representation across all
Speaker 1: facets of of media, UM. And so that's a really
Speaker 1: big focal point of our organizing our advocacy, both like
Speaker 1: very outward facing UM, but also behind the scenes, right,
Speaker 1: doing a lot of work inside the industry and really
Speaker 1: forging partnerships with studios so that we can see you know,
Speaker 1: last year we had our first too ever Native American
Speaker 1: television shows. It's crazy it took this long to kind
Speaker 1: of hit that mark, um, but they and they were
Speaker 1: huge successes, right, So really looking at how we get
Speaker 1: more of those you know, stories made and working with
Speaker 1: studios in that way, I mean, I think it's also
Speaker 1: a lot of advocacy across all facets of media. Right.
Speaker 1: We still don't have any Native American commentators on any
Speaker 1: of the major you know, cable networks, you know, major
Speaker 1: media outlets. So it's really again looking at that advocacy
Speaker 1: and creating opportunities, you know, for Native people's Native voices,
Speaker 1: um in Native stories so that more people can see
Speaker 1: us and hear us and understand that Native people have
Speaker 1: a lot to say. We're doing a lot, we are
Speaker 1: contributing a lot um and it's really shifting that narrative
Speaker 1: so that you know, Americans can really see who we
Speaker 1: are today and and the ways that we're leading and
Speaker 1: innovating across this country. What I what I love about
Speaker 1: shows like Rutherford Falls and Reservation Dogs, which are I'm
Speaker 1: just some of those are the two shows that we're
Speaker 1: talking about, is that it doesn't it's just people existing
Speaker 1: and there's a plot and there's a story and it's
Speaker 1: within the world that you may or may not know
Speaker 1: something about, but it doesn't come across this This is
Speaker 1: our story, and it's time that you know exactly what
Speaker 1: and it's it's beautiful because it's an easier entry point
Speaker 1: for people to absorb stuff that they might reject because,
Speaker 1: let's be real, when you're trying to inform ignorant people,
Speaker 1: you've got a high divide them into dog food, which bomani.
Speaker 1: That's something that you are very often, very able to
Speaker 1: do that. The Caucasian shirt is a perfect example of that. Like,
Speaker 1: you didn't come on to take a stand. I was
Speaker 1: just I'm just wanting a shirt. I thought this was funny.
Speaker 1: It's irony yet, but everybody knows about this, right, you
Speaker 1: know what's happening. Right, So, when you approach racial injustice
Speaker 1: in sports, not in sports, but as a sports as
Speaker 1: primarily a sports to journalist, though, I think HBO gonna
Speaker 1: forced you got that box a little bit and let
Speaker 1: you start diving. I mean I've been I've been out
Speaker 1: that thing for like twenty but I feel you. How
Speaker 1: do you how do you approach covering racial justice in sports?
Speaker 1: Let's just keep in sports since that's with this episode
Speaker 1: is well, I don't think I have a strategy as
Speaker 1: much as the one thing I know is just don't
Speaker 1: make it personal. You'd be amazed the wide birth that
Speaker 1: you receive if you don't make it personal, right, Like
Speaker 1: that's once once you start and and part of why
Speaker 1: I'm not inclined to make it but so personal is
Speaker 1: you actually, in many cases minimize the overall point when
Speaker 1: you make it personal. Because there are individuals that exists
Speaker 1: who certainly are racist, there's no question about that. Once
Speaker 1: you start focusing on whether or not or calling that
Speaker 1: person race is the discussion then becomes whether or not
Speaker 1: that person and is racist, And that term racist is
Speaker 1: used by different people in different ways. There's like a
Speaker 1: very basic word that you can use. But see, once
Speaker 1: you start talking about it as it evolves individuals, then
Speaker 1: you start getting a standard that is beyond even a
Speaker 1: reasonable doubt, right, like people gonna require you to prove
Speaker 1: that to the ninety nine percent of confidence on that,
Speaker 1: and everything you say then ultimately winds up being derailed.
Speaker 1: Our biggest problem is not individuals. Our biggest problems systems.
Speaker 1: Our biggest problem are the things that happened that you
Speaker 1: can't just point a finger at one person and say, hey,
Speaker 1: he's the one who did this. So for me talking
Speaker 1: about systems and the things there, that isn't difficult, and
Speaker 1: it's not hard to get the room, you know, for
Speaker 1: people to be willing to listen, Like I find that
Speaker 1: people are willing to listen to me go kind of hard,
Speaker 1: which is a bit surprising, but I think the reason
Speaker 1: is you just kind of got it. Like for me,
Speaker 1: my brother told me something very early on in my
Speaker 1: career that has guided me. And he was like, a
Speaker 1: good argument is not one that a genius cannot refute.
Speaker 1: It is one a fool cannot refute. So I am
Speaker 1: going to talk to you right where you are. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna come to directly where you are, and as direct
Speaker 1: of fashion as possible, as polite of fashion as possible also,
Speaker 1: but as direct fashion as possible. And then dare you
Speaker 1: to tell me? To show me? Show me a lot.
Speaker 1: And by and large, people have like been willing. I
Speaker 1: have been surprised over the course of the last twenty
Speaker 1: years how much listening to me people are willing to
Speaker 1: do on these matters. Some of them a lost causes,
Speaker 1: you know, but you can't worry about them. And I
Speaker 1: think that's the biggest part of it. The people you
Speaker 1: ain't never go win over the people you can be
Speaker 1: concerned with. So as we wrap up here a crystal
Speaker 1: and we look ahead, there are a lot of franchises that,
Speaker 1: for the time being, seem inclined to keep their problematic names.
Speaker 1: Are there things that the casual sports fan, what can
Speaker 1: we do to help bring light to this? And I'm
Speaker 1: talking bigger than just black people in other communities of color.
Speaker 1: I'm just talking about if I'm a fan of the
Speaker 1: Braves or the Chicago black Hawks, what can I do
Speaker 1: as a casual fan to try and bring light to
Speaker 1: these types of injustices. I mean, one, lean in and
Speaker 1: get educated, right because I think what we find. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm going back to my original statistic, eight percent of
Speaker 1: people know very little about Native Americans. So one, it's
Speaker 1: just we see that there's still a lot of education
Speaker 1: and to understand why these things are harmful and it's
Speaker 1: not always just the name, it's all the things associated
Speaker 1: with it. And then I think making our voices heard.
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you this, you know, this last you know,
Speaker 1: World Series, I was stunned by how many sports reporters
Speaker 1: actually we're like, oh, we get this now, and started
Speaker 1: really challenging the team and its ownership and the MLB
Speaker 1: commissioner like it was a it was a new dawn
Speaker 1: this last this last round in terms of coverage and
Speaker 1: the level of conversation you know about the history of
Speaker 1: Indian removal, you know, and in genocide and and you know,
Speaker 1: Georgia and all the things like it really kind of
Speaker 1: brought it in. So I think people, you know, social
Speaker 1: media is a powerful tool, and when people start turning
Speaker 1: up the volume, you lean in and start making your
Speaker 1: voices heard. The teams are tracking this stuff, right, and
Speaker 1: to really be part and parcel of joining that movement,
Speaker 1: because that's how we started getting it done with Washington
Speaker 1: and these other ones, right, they felt the pressure. So
Speaker 1: it's just really people getting educated. It's engaging in those
Speaker 1: conversations with your friends and your family and then really
Speaker 1: being a part of turning up the volume and putting
Speaker 1: the pressure on these teams to make the change. And
Speaker 1: I think the World Series is a perfect storm too.
Speaker 1: It helps that the commissioner of Major League Baseball Cornell
Speaker 1: degree or not, does not appear to be the brightest
Speaker 1: man in the world because they took that work that
Speaker 1: they took that All Star Game out of Atlanta because
Speaker 1: of the voting rights struff that was going on there.
Speaker 1: And then when he got asked about that team name,
Speaker 1: he basically pulled the states rights argument and said that
Speaker 1: this is a local matter and not something for us
Speaker 1: to discuss. And we all like so was that voting
Speaker 1: rights bill, how amy, But you packed up and moved
Speaker 1: because Delta and all of them told you were not
Speaker 1: on board with this, and then you left. The hypocrisy
Speaker 1: was laid so bare at that point that I think
Speaker 1: it did bring on a whole new challenge, and I
Speaker 1: hope something that people learn from that one also is
Speaker 1: never believe the natives that the team tells you speak
Speaker 1: for every other native. Like Dan Snyder had his own
Speaker 1: call natives whenever something with popas just about to ask television,
Speaker 1: and the Braves got their on call natives and they
Speaker 1: have a casino deal with them, right, because the Braves
Speaker 1: are corporate Cherokee. Yeah right, And so like if they
Speaker 1: are like, no, now, come listen to them. If they not, like,
Speaker 1: go listen to all of them, they're like, no, listen
Speaker 1: to these ones right here standing next to me. It's
Speaker 1: probably a cord to have a black friend and this
Speaker 1: is my native friends. Yes, yes, exactly exactly. Speed from
Speaker 1: Eastern man got put on the blast across Indian country
Speaker 1: for what he pulled down there. I saw a man
Speaker 1: the black horse once. I think I was on outside
Speaker 1: of the line. I don't I don't know if I
Speaker 1: was on. I was not on. I may have just
Speaker 1: been watching, but she was all with some whoever Daniel
Speaker 1: Snyder's on called Native was at that time, but just
Speaker 1: flat out asked him are you being paid for this?
Speaker 1: Which I don't recall him answering, what's that conversation? Like internally,
Speaker 1: I know black folks, we normally don't get into it
Speaker 1: publicly because we call it family business. But what is
Speaker 1: that internal strife? Is there a lot of that strife
Speaker 1: within the Native community of like, hey, could you shut
Speaker 1: the hell up? We're trying to get the name changed
Speaker 1: over here. Oh, I mean, you know this time with
Speaker 1: what happened at the series, and I mean he got
Speaker 1: put on blast publicly, the tribe did, and I was
Speaker 1: I mean, like I think there was a statement came
Speaker 1: out of National Congress American Indians saying things like Natives
Speaker 1: for higher I mean the people gloves came off because
Speaker 1: it was so crazy that a tribe in the neighboring
Speaker 1: states said no, no, no, this is we're going to
Speaker 1: sign off on this. It's not The tomahawk chop is
Speaker 1: not traditional to Eastern Band Cherokee or anybody else. This
Speaker 1: is an invention of Hollywood, right, and people's fantasies of
Speaker 1: playing Native. So I think this is really people put
Speaker 1: the tribe Eastern Cherokee and whatever, the smattering of natives
Speaker 1: that they found in the Atlanta area that you do
Speaker 1: not get to make that decision for all of us
Speaker 1: and for our kids. Um and so people are people
Speaker 1: are over it. And I can tell you like more
Speaker 1: and more, especially if these younger generations of Natives are
Speaker 1: coming up, they're done. They're done with these mascots and stuff.
Speaker 1: It's very generational. The older generationals where you know, my
Speaker 1: my dad, and my grandparents and everybody above were cool
Speaker 1: with it. These younger generations they're done. And so that's
Speaker 1: that's the shift. Well, I wish that we had more
Speaker 1: time to really dig into this, but I feel like
Speaker 1: we've got a lot accomplished today. I cannot thank you
Speaker 1: all enough for going beyond the scenes with me. But
Speaker 1: Monty Jones, the show is Game Theory, and that's premiering
Speaker 1: on HBO later this spring, maybe early summer. I do
Speaker 1: not know your production schedule, but I do know it
Speaker 1: is coming very very soon. And Krista echo Hawk, thank
Speaker 1: you so much. Thank you for all the work that
Speaker 1: you're doing with Illuminative as well to bring about change
Speaker 1: in this country and the elimination of the tomahawk chop
Speaker 1: as well. Thank you all for going beyond the scenes
Speaker 1: with me. Listen to the daily show Beyond the Scenes
Speaker 1: on Apple podcast, the I Heart Radio app, or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. I'm Joe Piazza, host of the
Speaker 1: podcast Under the Influence. If you tuned into our last season,
Speaker 1: you know that the world of mom influencers on Instagram
Speaker 1: contains multitudes. Yes there are pretty pictures and gorgeous kids,
Speaker 1: and yes there's lots of money behind a lot of
Speaker 1: those pictures, but there's also something much more dark and
Speaker 1: complicated going on in the background, and that speaks to
Speaker 1: everything that is wrong with how we treat women in
Speaker 1: the world. On season two Under the Influence, we're advocating
Speaker 1: for the women who make content and the women who
Speaker 1: consume it. We're going into some of the darkest corners
Speaker 1: of the social media universe, and we might just have
Speaker 1: a plan to shut it all the hell down. Listen
Speaker 1: to Season two of Under the Influence with Joe Piazza
Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. What girls in the forest, our imagination,
Speaker 1: and our family bonds. The forest is closer than you think.
Speaker 1: Find a forest near you and discover the forest dot
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Speaker 1: and the AD Council.