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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight. We're talking true crime all

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Speaker 2: the time here on iHeartRadio. It's Thursday, July fifteenth, and

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Speaker 2: we have a stacked night of headlines. So this Epstein

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Speaker 2: mess begins to get messier. We discussed it to nauseum

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Speaker 2: last night about the fact that there was this raw

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Speaker 2: footage taken at the prison that Epstein took his own

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Speaker 2: life in allegedly, and now they are saying it's not

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Speaker 2: just one minute as it had been described, but rather

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Speaker 2: almost three minutes according to metadata, which is maddening. And

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Speaker 2: I think we're all collectively feeling like we need answers

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Speaker 2: and why is this a cover up? I feel like

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Speaker 2: we're making more of it than it needs to be.

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Speaker 2: Or this lie is a crack in the system, and

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Speaker 2: maybe that's going to bring us together. Also, we're going

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Speaker 2: to start digging into this other very disturbing sex trafficking case,

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Speaker 2: the Abercrombie and Fitch sex trafficking scandal, which is international

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Speaker 2: and has a lot of crossover also to the Epstein

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Speaker 2: case and possibly even to the Ditty case. And then

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Speaker 2: later in the show, we're going to be unpacking the

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Speaker 2: Hillside Strangler serial killer. This is a gruesome one. He

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Speaker 2: has been denied parole for the eighth time, and Body's

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Speaker 2: been following this one closely and is going to be

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Speaker 2: giving us all the details on that. I'm Stephanie Lai Decker,

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Speaker 2: and I head of Katie's Studios where we make true

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Speaker 2: crime podcasts and documentaries and I get to do that

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Speaker 2: every night with Courtney Armstrong and Body move in. We're

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Speaker 2: here and we want to hear from you. So listen.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot going on in the news right now,

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Speaker 2: so jump in join the conversation. We're at eight eight

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Speaker 2: eight three One Crime again eight eight eight three one Crime,

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Speaker 2: or you can hit us up on our socials at

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Speaker 2: True Crime Tonight's show on TikTok and Instagram, or at

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Speaker 2: True Crime Tonight on Facebook. So listen, we actually have

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Speaker 2: a talk back right now. Why don't we start there.

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Speaker 3: I'm listening to the show tonight, and I would pose

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Speaker 3: a different question if Biden had the list and it

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Speaker 3: and Trump was on the list, why don't we think

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Speaker 3: you would release the list in order to get elected.

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Speaker 3: My thought is, Eve, is that everyone is on this list,

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Speaker 3: and everyone it would be their their mutual assured distruction

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Speaker 3: if anyone released it, which is why it's not getting Boy.

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Speaker 2: Are you in my head right now? It's Steph and

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Speaker 2: I could not agree more. If this is not a

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Speaker 2: Trump versus Biden, versus Clinton versus whomever, it's not even

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Speaker 2: a political thing at this point. This is potentially world leaders,

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Speaker 2: some of the biggest influencers of our time, making decisions

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Speaker 2: that are affecting every single one of us, and we

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Speaker 2: don't even know who to believe. It's like a pox

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Speaker 2: on everybody's house. I couldn't agree with you more.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, I think it's very astute as well. And

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Speaker 4: it really does seem totally agree with Stephanie taking politics

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Speaker 4: entirely out of it. It just as a nation, I

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Speaker 4: feel like everyone is feeling duped. It's almost like with Watergate,

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Speaker 4: except instead of just a couple of journalists down in

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Speaker 4: the garage getting the information, we're all kind of finding

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Speaker 4: out little bits and pieces and demanding where's the actual

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Speaker 4: entirety of all of this information?

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Speaker 2: And again, I think we can all agree, every single

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Speaker 2: one of us, no matter what our political beliefs are

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Speaker 2: or aren't. You know, in a very confusing time. Speaking

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Speaker 2: for myself, I find myself right in the middle, super confused.

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Speaker 2: This is about victims, hundreds and hundreds of underage girls

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Speaker 2: being tossed around and victimized by very powerful people. Why right? Why? Absolutely?

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Speaker 4: And also just the other day, Pam Bondy, the Attorney General,

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Speaker 4: she had gone on to release what was slated to

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Speaker 4: be the completely the raw video of outside perpetrator Ebstein's cell.

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Speaker 5: So that speaks to the missing minute we reported on

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Speaker 5: I think a couple of nights ago. The video jumps

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Speaker 5: from eleven fifty eight fifty eight to midnight, which is

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Speaker 5: like a minute in two seconds of missing footage in

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Speaker 5: this raw I'm using air quotes here, the raw footage

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Speaker 5: that was released by the DOJ. So what Pam Bondi

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Speaker 5: is saying there, if you couldn't hear her, is that

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Speaker 5: what she learned from the Bureau of Prisons is that

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Speaker 5: every night the video resets, and every night the same

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Speaker 5: missing minute in two seconds is going to be missing

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Speaker 5: from the video. Except for now. There's it's possible that

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Speaker 5: actually three minutes are missing from this video.

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Speaker 2: Okay, what a night? What did I know this? I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's the lie on top of the lie. And I

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Speaker 2: think that's the problem here.

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Speaker 5: I think you're right in the the more they lie,

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Speaker 5: the worse they're digging their hole. And I exactly like,

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Speaker 5: I feel kind of insulted a little bit. No, you

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Speaker 5: guys feel like, yes, man, they think we're stupid.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I guess that's like and it all falls under

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Speaker 2: this category of well, that's just politics, you know, double speak.

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Speaker 2: Everybody just you know, everybody's dishonest, and I got to

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Speaker 2: be honest myself. I don't believe that's true. I think

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Speaker 2: that there are more honest people and great people and

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Speaker 2: light people at very dark times. I hope we all

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Speaker 2: kind of find our way to that, and we all

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Speaker 2: deserve a little better.

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Speaker 5: So Wired magazine, their publication is it's all tech and

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Speaker 5: you know they're fairly fairly respected. Well, they examined the

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Speaker 5: metadata forensics and they found that this eleven hours of

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Speaker 5: raw footage and that's directly from the DJ raw footage

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Speaker 5: has been cut. Surveillance footage from outside the cell released

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Speaker 5: by the DOJ and the FBI, which really is the

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Speaker 5: same thing had nearly three minutes cut out. Metadata from

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Speaker 5: the raw Epstein prison video shows approximately two minutes and

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Speaker 5: fifty three seconds were removed from one of the two

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Speaker 5: stitched together videos. Do you remember a couple of nights ago,

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Speaker 5: I was talking about how the aspect ratio kind of

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Speaker 5: like the frame size changes a little bit. What it

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Speaker 5: looks like they did and what the metadata is showing

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Speaker 5: is that two videos, two separate total videos were stitched

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Speaker 5: together and that's why the aspect ratio changes.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So they're they're saying now that through these this

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Speaker 5: digital forensics that two minutes and fifty three seconds were removed,

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Speaker 5: and that you know, I asked Joseph that night that

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Speaker 5: we talked about this, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert who

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Speaker 5: we have on the show all the time, beloved member

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Speaker 5: of our family, and you know, I asked him. I said,

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Speaker 5: could this Epstein killing situation, how he was, you know,

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Speaker 5: hung himself or killed? Let's say, could it have happened

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Speaker 5: in one minute? And Joseph said, no, I don't think so,

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Speaker 5: because I wanted to know why this minute was missing. Well,

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Speaker 5: why are three minutes missing?

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Speaker 6: Now?

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Speaker 5: I want to ask Joseph when we have them on next,

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Speaker 5: could this have happened in three minutes?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And like again, if you haven't been paying attention

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Speaker 2: to this, you know, these Jeffrey Epstein client list has

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Speaker 2: been long discussed. It's been long talked about. Allegedly there

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Speaker 2: were all of these very high profile, important, important, potential

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Speaker 2: world leaders, billionaires, influencers on this list, and that there

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Speaker 2: may have been some nefarious behavior, and that even may

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Speaker 2: have been there was nefarious behavior, and likely there were

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Speaker 2: cameras throughout this infamous island where some of this behavior

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Speaker 2: was likely caught on tape and perhaps being used as revenge,

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Speaker 2: and you know that scary stuff at a very scary time.

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Speaker 2: So then they released this tape like whoa, well, there's

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Speaker 2: no client list, and you know, we'll prove it that

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Speaker 2: he committed suicide Jeffrey Epstein while in prison and wasn't murdered,

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Speaker 2: which has always been this like alternate theory. We'll prove

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Speaker 2: that that didn't happen. We'll release this eleven hour video

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Speaker 2: and then everybody realizes the eleven hour video was missing

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Speaker 2: one minute. Now we're realizing it's almost three minutes, right.

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Speaker 5: And U c Berkeley professor was consulted on this digital

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Speaker 5: forensics analysis that Wired magazine did. His name is Hanni Frid.

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Speaker 5: He criticized the chain of custody and he said that

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Speaker 5: if this was brought to him to present in court,

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Speaker 5: he would say would not meet his standards. Ooh, and

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Speaker 5: this is from the Department of Justice the United States

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Speaker 5: of America. I mean, this is not some law clerk.

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Speaker 5: This is somebody's got some splainin to do. This is

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Speaker 5: true crime.

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Speaker 4: Tonight on iHeartRadio, I'm Courtney Armstrong here as always with

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Speaker 4: Body Moven and Stephanie Leidecker. We're talking about Ebstein and

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Speaker 4: everything and kind of what keeps unfolding day after day,

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Speaker 4: which is different information. We want to hear your thoughts,

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Speaker 4: so it give us a call. We're at eighty to

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Speaker 4: eighty three to one crime or hit us back on

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Speaker 4: the talkbacks, which if you're on the Heart Radio app,

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Speaker 4: you just go up into the upper right hand corner,

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Speaker 4: you click that little red microphone and record a message

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Speaker 4: and you will be on the show. So, Body, I

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Speaker 4: wanted to ask you to clarify metadata.

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Speaker 2: So what is metadata?

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Speaker 5: Is that what you want to like get like a

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Speaker 5: little overview so like when you create a video where

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Speaker 5: you're creating in your cell phone or video camera or

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Speaker 5: surveillance video, you're not just capturing like the visuals and sound.

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Speaker 5: There's a whole layer of like hidden elements in the video,

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Speaker 5: and it's attached to the file that gets created on

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Speaker 5: your computer or your cell phone, whatever device. And that's

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Speaker 5: called metadata, and it's data about the data. So think

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Speaker 5: of it like behind the scenes, like like the credits

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Speaker 5: of a movie. So the kind of the best way

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Speaker 5: to kind of describe it, you know, it contains things

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Speaker 5: like the data was created, the time of it, the

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Speaker 5: user name that edited it, what encoding was used, the

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Speaker 5: location of the file on the device.

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Speaker 2: There's all on cell phones.

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Speaker 5: It might even have GPS coordinates of where the photo

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Speaker 5: was taken. That's like when sometimes you upload a picture

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Speaker 5: to Instagram, it says, oh, are you in Barcelona? You know,

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Speaker 5: and you can I know, I was fantasizing for I

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Speaker 5: like it, you know, and you can say, yeah, I'm

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Speaker 5: in Barcelona, and it tags your location as Barcelona. And

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Speaker 5: that's because it's reading that metadata. It's how I knew

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Speaker 5: Luca was in Toronto when we.

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Speaker 2: Were looking for him. I don't have with cats. That's

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Speaker 2: what metadata is.

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Speaker 5: And this metadata on these files shows really significant discrepancies

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Speaker 5: in what we're being told. For instance, we can tell

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Speaker 5: that it was edited with Adobe Premiere Pro, which is

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Speaker 5: not you know, unusual. I mean, there has to be

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Speaker 5: some kind of extraction from the surveillance software. Okay, so

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Speaker 5: that's fine, it's no big deal. But it also shows

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Speaker 5: us that the file was edited and saved several times

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Speaker 5: over the period of more than three and a half hours.

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Speaker 5: So there's no reason to keep saving it unless you're

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Speaker 5: edits right, Why did you do that?

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Speaker 2: Unless things have changed, I've been poking around.

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Speaker 4: We have at this point no knowledge of who well

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Speaker 4: we do these changes except for the user name.

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Speaker 2: Right, we have the username.

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Speaker 5: So remember I was telling you it has like the

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Speaker 5: location on your computer where the file is saved. And

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Speaker 5: in that location, you know, it's like ce the c

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Speaker 5: drive users. In my case it would be body moving slash,

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Speaker 5: document slash, you know whatever. And in this case it's

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Speaker 5: m J. Cole And that's all we really know. That's

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Speaker 5: the person's name. So like, can I just have a go?

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Speaker 2: That's like they're sign on to the computer, right, Like

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Speaker 2: how they sign in and if I send you a photograph,

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Speaker 2: because this happened to my girlfriend when she caught a

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Speaker 2: guy you dirty, sent a photo and he was like,

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Speaker 2: oh yeah, I'm here, you know, with my kids, and

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Speaker 2: sent a photo and then she did some little chef

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Speaker 2: of course, and it doesn't really look like that photo

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Speaker 2: was from today real time. That was from three.

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Speaker 5: Listen, if you get a photo and your question about that,

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Speaker 5: click the little information button you know on your iPhone

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Speaker 5: and it will tell you the metadata, and it will

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Speaker 5: tell you and if you presslong, you can see the

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Speaker 5: live photo.

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Speaker 2: So all the things they don't want you to see.

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Speaker 4: Oh careful what you do and what you send.

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Speaker 2: Listen, keep it here.

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Speaker 4: We're going to continue to follow this when we come back,

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Speaker 4: and we'll be digging into the Abercrombie and Fitch International

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Speaker 4: sex trafficking case. Also we will be talking about the

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Speaker 4: Hillside Strangler serial killer, and a bit on Beyonce True Crime.

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Speaker 2: Tonight. I'm feeling a little worked up about all things Epstein,

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Speaker 2: and I got a laser facial so it hurts to smile.

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Speaker 2: So sorry, guys, sorry for the room. I apologize. Here

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Speaker 2: we go. Epstein. He had a right hand woman named

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Speaker 2: Gilaine Maxwell. We've heard so much about right, he's currently

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Speaker 2: serving time. She was brought up on five counts and

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Speaker 2: is looking at you know, I think twenty years or so,

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Speaker 2: and she's been living kind of a quiet life behind bars.

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Speaker 2: Now with these new developments in the Epstein case, it

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Speaker 2: feels like there's a lot of attention being brought back

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Speaker 2: to her. If there was not a client list, and

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Speaker 2: you know, hundreds of girls were not being trafficked, then

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Speaker 2: why is she serving time? By the way, I'm not

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Speaker 2: suggesting she should not be serving time, but I just

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Speaker 2: think it's an interesting point of this conversation because again,

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Speaker 2: this is all about grooming, right, This was happening for decades.

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Speaker 2: This was happening in international places. So how do we

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Speaker 2: stop it if we don't talk about it. So Gelaine Maxwell,

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Speaker 2: who wants to give us a little of that background?

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Speaker 2: So I'll talk a little bit Glaine Maxwell.

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Speaker 4: She was a British socialite and like you said, really

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Speaker 4: Jeffrey Epstein's right hand woman, and it seemed like they

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Speaker 4: had a really symbiotic relationship. Glaine Maxwell was really a

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Speaker 4: society woman and had connection to you know, infamously Prince

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Speaker 4: Andrew who came down but she was the daughter of

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Speaker 4: a British media tycoon, a guy named Robert Maxwell, who

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Speaker 4: died under strange circumstances over a yacht. And so as

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Speaker 4: she grew.

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Speaker 2: Up she had this father who was very.

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Speaker 4: Strict, we learned through watching some documentaries all about her life,

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Speaker 4: who was very strict with his children. But she worshiped

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Speaker 4: and idolized her father and they lived a fancy life.

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Speaker 4: Although once Guleene Maxwell's father died, it turns out this

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Speaker 4: sort of piles and piles of money that they thought

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Speaker 4: they were living on was all a mirage and in.

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Speaker 2: Fact here was a scoundrel.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he was a scoundrel, and the finances were a mess,

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Speaker 4: and you know, a lot of people who knew them well,

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Speaker 4: both Epstein and Galen thought, you know, they needed each other.

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Speaker 4: Eulaine went sort of right from her father and they

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Speaker 4: would be together in social situations, just rubbing elbows with

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Speaker 4: the fanciest people in the world. And she needed another

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Speaker 4: man with a lot of money. Seemed like what she

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Speaker 4: was looking for, And what Jeffrey Epstein was pretty well

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Speaker 4: known for looking for was clout in society. He wanted clout,

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Speaker 4: He wanted to be fancy, I mean he was forever

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Speaker 4: wearing the Harvard shirt. Yet not that he went there,

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Speaker 4: not remotely, no, which is not a dig on wherever

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Speaker 4: you went. But it's just he wanted to be perceived

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Speaker 4: as that. And Gulayne was known more than almost anything

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Speaker 4: as a connector. She connected people and so and so

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Speaker 4: maybe you can scratch so and so's.

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Speaker 2: Back, and just to that point, you know, going back

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Speaker 2: to when she was in Britain, you know, this is

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Speaker 2: somebody who was you know, had access to the palace right,

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Speaker 2: who had access to the royal family. And her father was,

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Speaker 2: you know, a media mogul of sorts, and he was

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Speaker 2: allegedly her favorite and even named his yacht after his

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Speaker 2: you know, beloved Gilain daughter. And you know, to your point,

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Speaker 2: she totally idolized him. So in many ways she had

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Speaker 2: to leave there to be able to sort of start

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Speaker 2: over because she was she was ashamed. You know, it

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Speaker 2: turns out dad was a complete liar and as a result,

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Speaker 2: she was kind of left penniless and the family was shamed,

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Speaker 2: and she started over again by coming to the United States,

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Speaker 2: you know, meets Epstein, allegedly another scoundrel. And is that

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Speaker 2: an example of an amazing trauma bond, toxic relationships that

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Speaker 2: are brought together. Were they together, They were very much together. Yes,

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Speaker 2: they were together, and she apparently idolized him and adored

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Speaker 2: him much like her you know deceased now father, and

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Speaker 2: the father did die under suspicious circumstances, if I'm not mistaken.

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Speaker 2: You know, it was either a suicide or he was killed.

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Speaker 2: There there was something kind of odd about it. And

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Speaker 2: then you find out he actually had no money, that's right, So.

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Speaker 4: Either he whether he jumped off this yacht or was

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Speaker 4: thrown off this yacht, no one knows the clear answer

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Speaker 4: on that, but it was very strange.

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Speaker 2: It's very strange. So then she gets with Epstein, and

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Speaker 2: those two, you know, were a socialite couple, very divine,

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Speaker 2: hobnobbing in the big leagues. And then it turns out,

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Speaker 2: you know, her boyfriend has a bit of a sexual

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Speaker 2: appetite for young ladies. And this is where it gets

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Speaker 2: a little creepy. So I mean, that's an understatement. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's not a word to actually use that will make

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Speaker 2: sense in this case. So I guess they split up.

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Speaker 2: She still pines for him, and maybe in an effort

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Speaker 2: to keep him, she starts feeding the beast. Right, she

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Speaker 2: starts grooming young girls, bringing young girls into the equation,

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Speaker 2: what point do you make that concession?

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Speaker 5: Like, Okay, well, to keep this guy, I'm gonna feed

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Speaker 5: this disgusting, illegal, disgusting thing.

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Speaker 2: But again, if you's coming from a scenario where her dad,

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Speaker 2: again I'm not justifying it, but just for the play along,

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Speaker 2: is her backround an example of where her boundaries may

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Speaker 2: have already been stretched. You know, sometimes we choose what's

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Speaker 2: that famous saying, we choose a familiar hell to an

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Speaker 2: unfamiliar heaven. It's like, what she knew was this kind

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Speaker 2: of behavior. So she starts feeding the beast. That beast

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Speaker 2: gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And you know, we

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Speaker 2: know at this point Epstein was not a financier. You know,

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Speaker 2: he was many things, but no one can really understand

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Speaker 2: where his money fully came from. Yet he was hanging

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Speaker 2: out with the big leagues. Wow.

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Speaker 5: While you're listening to True Crime tonight on iHeart Radio,

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Speaker 5: I'm Body Moven and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and

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Speaker 5: Stephanie Leidecker, and right now we're talking about Epstein's circle,

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Speaker 5: in particular Glane Maxwell. We want to hear from you,

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Speaker 5: So give us a call at eighty to eight thirty

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Speaker 5: one Crime or use the talkbacks on the iHeart radio

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Speaker 5: app and give.

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Speaker 2: Us a little message.

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Speaker 5: Courtney, Yes, what do you think happened to Glane to

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Speaker 5: make I just can't get I can't let go of

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Speaker 5: the fact that she made these concessions, like in her mind.

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Speaker 5: Do we know like what her firm, did she testify

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Speaker 5: to anything, like what her first concession was? Did she ever?

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Speaker 4: Well, I don't think this woman had to argue with

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Speaker 4: her own this is my perspective of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think she was arguing.

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Speaker 4: With her own morals very hard or long or at all,

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Speaker 4: because really I think that to whatever means possible, she

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Speaker 4: was to keep him for clause on this man, and

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Speaker 4: also to keep herself happy and keep herself rich and

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Speaker 4: keep herself true.

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Speaker 2: It's a very good point. Course. Yeah, I'm strong because

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Speaker 2: she didn't have her own money at this point. Now, well,

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Speaker 2: and that's my understanding too. She even would participate in

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Speaker 2: some of these activities.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and it was when in watching we spoke about

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Speaker 4: the other night Filthy Rich and the Glaine Maxwell portion

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Speaker 4: of it. Yes, she was going out and she would

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Speaker 4: go to Bendel's or other fancy department stores and find

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Speaker 4: a young girl working at the front and say, oh,

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Speaker 4: you want.

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Speaker 2: To go to what college? Oh?

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, I know a guy who knows a guy will

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Speaker 4: will help you figure out an internship. Just come on

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Speaker 4: over to the house. And she was doing this as

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Speaker 4: many as three times a day. I forget if this

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Speaker 4: was a reporter saying this or one of the victims,

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Speaker 4: but she was feeding him up to three victims a

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Speaker 4: day at certain points.

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Speaker 2: Can you imagine, So it's not horrible, who's living in

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Speaker 2: a really fancy place in New York City? That Brownstone is,

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Speaker 2: you know, like no other. And also in West Palm

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Speaker 2: Beach where he was also brought up on charges and

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Speaker 2: kind of slapped on the wrist for all intentsive purposes.

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Speaker 2: Let loose again on in the wild bought an island,

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Speaker 2: you know little Saint John's slate, Little Saint John's or

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Speaker 2: Little Saint Thomas Again. It's like, if we know this

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Speaker 2: monster exists and that the clients are so high profile,

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Speaker 2: why are we not just releasing it. Just because you

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Speaker 2: went to the island doesn't necessarily mean you did something nefarious.

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Speaker 2: If you have nothing to hide then let it rip

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Speaker 2: like you said you would not, even as though we

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Speaker 2: were begging for it. I mean, I guess we've all

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Speaker 2: been begging for thisized and it's coming. It's coming, no

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Speaker 2: matter what side of the equation you're on politically. Don't

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Speaker 2: get me started. But yeah, Guilay Maxwell, now behind bars,

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Speaker 2: is trying to get herself released. I'm sure well she is.

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Speaker 5: Actually, she filed the DOJ had the deadline was yesterday,

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Speaker 5: remember to file the objection to her appeal. So Jeffrey

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Speaker 5: Epstein pled, and part of his plea agreement was this

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Speaker 5: term that none of his co conspirators would be prosecuted. Right,

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Speaker 5: that was the like one of the arrangements. And part

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Speaker 5: of her argument for her appeal is like, hey, listen,

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Speaker 5: you said in this plea agreement with Jeffrey Epstein that

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Speaker 5: nobody else would be prosecuted. Why am I in prison?

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Speaker 5: And now on top of that, there's no client list,

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Speaker 5: there's you're not releasing anything.

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Speaker 4: So who's the victim here exactly? It's very curious to

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Speaker 4: me legally. I'm just trying to work that out.

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Speaker 5: The appeal was filed a while ago, the clientlest not

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Speaker 5: being released and whatnot is totally new and it wasn't

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Speaker 5: part of the appeal. I'm just throwing that in there

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Speaker 5: as myself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand that.

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Speaker 4: What is confusing to me is the fact that if

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Speaker 4: my timeline's correct, it may not be Epstein went child

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Speaker 4: first and then he pled out and in his plea agreement,

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Speaker 4: as you just said, Boddie, it said no one that

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Speaker 4: what was the word cotors a co conspirator. Then A

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Speaker 4: I'm curious how Gulaye Maxwell even was actually persecuted unless

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Speaker 4: it's the fact that Jeffrey Epstein said she is innocent

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Speaker 4: of everything, which I have heard Epstein say that in recordings.

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Speaker 4: So maybe that was the problem that he said, oh,

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Speaker 4: she was totally innocent, and that nullified her as being

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Speaker 4: a co conspirator.

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Speaker 2: Do you understand, I do, I absolutely do. I just

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Speaker 2: don't know. I thought the co conspirator agreement that was

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Speaker 2: given to Epstein came from his previous case in West

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Speaker 2: Palm Beach. Oh, maybe in two thousand and eight we'll

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Speaker 2: do a fact check on this, because it's all important stuff.

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Speaker 2: And now that raises the question where is Jeffrey Epstein

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Speaker 2: getting in all of his money? Allegedly Les Wexner, who

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Speaker 2: is the person who owned Victoria's secret and the limited

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Speaker 2: you know, a billionaire. Dare I say that there was

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Speaker 2: some connection between Epstein and Wexner and you know, the

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Speaker 2: depths of which we do not know, and nor do

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Speaker 2: we understand fully what that means. I guess I feel

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Speaker 2: like I'm just losing the plot line here, Like, what's

432
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 2: the plot line? It's not Democrat versus Republican that I know,

433
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 2: So let's go a step larger. What's the plot line

434
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 2: and mutually throwing you know, all big names around, et cetera,

435
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 2: But like, what is the bigger picture? I feel a

436
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 2: little lost in the sauce and I think them versus us? Right, yeah,

437
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,639
Speaker 2: And personally it makes me feel scared. You should be.

438
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,680
Speaker 2: I'm a little terrified actually myself.

439
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 5: Well, coming up now the story of infamous serial killer

440
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 5: who was denied parole again for the eighth time just

441
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 5: this week. Stick around for True Crime tonight where we're

442
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 5: talking true crime all the time.

443
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 2: So we've been talking a lot about Epstein and Delane Maxwell,

444
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 2: and again we want to hear from you. Eight eight

445
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 2: eight three one crime. Please jump in join the combo.

446
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 2: We actually have a talkback right now. A Hi.

447
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 7: My name is Sarah again, and I was wondering if

448
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,679
Speaker 7: you guys think that the victim of Broome has to

449
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,640
Speaker 7: be a child or a minor. I only ask because

450
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 7: I feel like there are certain instances where somebody has

451
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 7: influenced like money. I'm thinking of like Diddy and the

452
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 7: idea of persuading someone slowly into your life to do

453
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 7: things and then all of a sudden it's something it

454
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 7: wasn't in the beginning. What do you guys think about that?

455
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 2: That's a good question, great one, go ahead. Who wants

456
00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 2: to go first? Yeah? I think I'll chime in that

457
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 2: it is a great question.

458
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,919
Speaker 4: And it's interesting to think is there a line or

459
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 4: if there isn't, should there be a line? And it's

460
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,679
Speaker 4: one of those things I almost I don't think there

461
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 4: should be because there are so many different power dynamics.

462
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 4: I mean, you can really take anything, Like your employer

463
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 4: has power over you because they supply you money to

464
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 4: pay your bills. So it seems like that could be

465
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 4: a person who could groom you. So now, I bottom

466
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 4: line know, I don't think that you need to be

467
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 4: a child. I think given circumstances, anyone can be a victied.

468
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 5: I think I'm going to disagree, respectfully disagree. I think grooming,

469
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 5: when somebody is called groomer, I think it has a

470
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 5: connotation to it, and I think it it has the

471
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 5: idea that they're grooming somebody who's vulnerable and not able

472
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 5: to concede, not able to consent, you know, and that

473
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 5: usually implies like a minor or a protected person of

474
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 5: some kind, maybe somebody with some mental disabilities. I think

475
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 5: when you say grooming can happen to adults who are

476
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 5: capable of making their own decisions and whatnot, I think

477
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 5: it it waters down the word.

478
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 2: It's so funny because I you know, I think a

479
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 2: groomer can really just go for anybody who's vulnerable, right,

480
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 2: So even adults could find themselves in very vulnerable situations.

481
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 2: And sometimes victims feel extra shame because they're like, Wow,

482
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 2: I'm a grown adult, how did I get groomed into

483
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 2: this situation? Because you know, look, power, fame, you know anything,

484
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 2: you know, holding family relationships over your head, promise of

485
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 2: a job, et cetera, or a promise of love. Maybe

486
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 2: even at its core, yes, it does have this underage connotation,

487
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 2: but I think it does be a different room very easily.

488
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 2: And I also fear that if you find yourself in

489
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 2: a situation where you're like, well, how did this happen?

490
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: You know, because it's slow and steady, and they know

491
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 2: that you want something, or you want to be loved,

492
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 2: or you're in a desperate or vulnerable moment in your life,

493
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 2: somebody who's looking to take advantage of that can really

494
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 2: crack the doors open, and that can be so garrassing

495
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 2: for victims. So I would hate for someone to feel

496
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 2: extra shame just because of their age, because sometimes you know,

497
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 2: we just sometimes don't know, You don't know that the

498
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 2: big bad world is sometimes out to get you and body.

499
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 4: Because I absolutely I hear your point, and I do

500
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 4: feel like there does need to be some sort of

501
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 4: dependency again, whether it's financial, whether it's this.

502
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just thinking

503
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 2: through what you said.

504
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 4: But let me ask you this. So, given the age parameter,

505
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,640
Speaker 4: which is a totally reasonable boundary to set, and maybe

506
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 4: the legal one, I would need.

507
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 2: To look that up.

508
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,919
Speaker 4: Given that, would you consider what we were just speaking

509
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 4: about with Jeffrey Epstein and Gulaye Maxwell, with her grooming,

510
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 4: where she would go and entice women. I'm not talking

511
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 4: about someone who's fourteen or seventeen. I'm talking about someone

512
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 4: who is of age. Do you think Gulaene Maxwell going

513
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 4: and bit by bit and saying, oh, oh hey, I

514
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 4: can help you and I'm gonna make your world better.

515
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 5: Okay, you're shaking your head, so that's you don't know.

516
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 5: I think that's just manipulation. I think everybody does to

517
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 5: get into relationships with other people. I think everybody puts

518
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 5: their best foot forward. When you're entering some kind of

519
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 5: relationship with somebody and they're not, you know, you're you're

520
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 5: kind of masking who you really are.

521
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 2: Everybody does that, you think, yes, everybody I've dated, Yeah,

522
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: I know you don't do that. I disagree with that.

523
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 2: I do disagree with that. I don't think you.

524
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 5: Don't think when you meet somebody, you're not you're not

525
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 5: getting their best, their best foot forward. You don't think,

526
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 5: yeah at first I the first date self is what

527
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 5: I'm talking about. I'm not talking about hiding like that

528
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 5: they're a serial killer, like, and I'm just like, you

529
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 5: put your best foot forward. You know, you look nice,

530
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 5: you smell good, your hair is done. You know, they

531
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 5: don't get to see when you're just waking up and

532
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 5: you're like a monster and you got like the breath

533
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 5: of the devil.

534
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 2: You know, By the way, So are you grooming me

535
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 2: right now? You look so beautiful, You're all dolled up,

536
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: you have full makeup, look like a million bucks? Am

537
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 2: I getting groomed right now? Because sometimes there is a

538
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 2: difference between yeah, like you know, presenting yourself. You know,

539
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 2: I do your best way.

540
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 5: I just don't want to water down a word that's critical,

541
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 5: and grooming is a word that I think the masses

542
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 5: a tribute to pre predator behavior behavior right.

543
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 2: About a cult? So many of the cults, for example,

544
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 2: you know how first of all, it's shocking that I'm

545
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 2: not in Welt. How did I get into cults? You

546
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 2: know what I mean? So as an adult, you're in

547
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 2: the Bravo cult. Right, Maybe that's fair, that is fair,

548
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 2: But you know, like adults get pulled into cults all

549
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 2: the time, and they're like being manipulated and they're being

550
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 2: promised a bigger future heaven above, and next thing you know,

551
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 2: you're drinking the kool aid.

552
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 6: Right.

553
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 5: I just think grooming is just a strong word. I

554
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 5: think that's more like coercion or manipulation, grooming and listen,

555
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 5: I want to hear you. Give us a call at

556
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 5: eight eight eight thirty one crime or use the talkbacks

557
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 5: on the iHeartRadio app. We're kind of in the middle

558
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 5: of this grooming conversation, which I'm kind of obsessed with

559
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 5: right now.

560
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: It's a good conversation like hair and makeup.

561
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 5: No, Like you know, when I'm when I'm thinking of grooming,

562
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 5: I'm thinking of, let's just you know, the stereotypical man

563
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 5: or woman of power of some kind. You know, whether

564
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 5: it's a teacher or somebody that has some kind of

565
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 5: control influencing a minor or a vulnerable person. And by

566
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 5: vulnerable person, I mean somebody who cannot consent or make

567
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 5: their own decisions into bad things. I'm not thinking of

568
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 5: like relationships, And I'm thinking of somebody that's a predator,

569
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 5: like like a legal predator. And I think if we

570
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 5: wash that word down, the people that are predators or

571
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 5: whatnot aren't getting are kind of getting off scott free

572
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 5: because they can say, oh, well, groomer just means I

573
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 5: you know what about.

574
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 2: I hear you on that just for the play along.

575
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 2: So going back to the Sean diddy Combe's case, and

576
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 2: he had some of his victims, some of whom were

577
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 2: ex girlfriends of his who maybe hadn't participated in so

578
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 2: many you know, exotic sexual things, but to please him,

579
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: to make him happy, to get you know, little by

580
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 2: little next thing. You know, there's this little added thing,

581
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 2: next thing. You know, there's this little added thing. Would

582
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 2: that be considered grooming? Not in my opinion interesting? But

583
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 2: I might listen. I might be the odd ball here.

584
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 2: I might be wrong too. I'm looking it up right now.

585
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 2: What's the actual definition, just so we're hearing it.

586
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 4: By the way, about it, I definitely respect, not wanting

587
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 4: to move the line lest it lose power. It loses

588
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 4: I'll give you a pet peeve of mine. It's different,

589
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 4: but triggered forever. Everyone's you know, triggered because you look

590
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 4: at them the wrong way versus.

591
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 2: You had you know, an actual an actual trigger trigger. Right, yeah,

592
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 2: so right, anyway, here's the actual definition of grooming. Grooming

593
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 2: is not just about physical abuse, It's about psychological manipulation.

594
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 2: The goal is to break down boundaries, make the victim

595
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 2: feel dependent, often to normalize abuse so the victim doesn't

596
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 2: recognize what's happening to them until it's too late. Stages

597
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 2: of grooming targeting the vulnerable victim often considered underage or

598
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 2: someone who lacks emotional supervision or agency of themselves, but

599
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 2: that could be an adult. I think trust. You know,

600
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 2: abuser acts kind, helpful, generous, offering things that are of

601
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 2: value to their victim and fulfilling a need. They promise gifts, attention, affection, mentorship,

602
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 2: and promises of success, and also isolate them, perhaps from

603
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 2: their their greater community or your family, people who would

604
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 2: be like, really, this clown. You know you're getting manipulated,

605
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 2: my friend. We all need that friend who can sort

606
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 2: of give it to you straight and then control an exploitation.

607
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 2: And yeah, this happens online a lot as well. Something

608
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 2: just to be mindful of.

609
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 5: I guess very vulnerable. I think the key word there

610
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 5: is vulnerable. And I didn't mean like adults can't be vulnerable,

611
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 5: because certainly they can, you know, like, of course adults

612
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 5: can be vulnerable. But I just think that the word

613
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 5: loses its power if we apply it to every situation

614
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 5: where we got manipulated or coursed. Yeah that's just my opinion,

615
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:18,719
Speaker 5: and I listen, I'm okay, with being wrong with it.

616
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 4: I'm totally okay, no, it is an opinion, so there, yeah, yeah,

617
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 4: And I like that we're talking about it, and again,

618
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 4: like you know, anyone listening, please join the conversation.

619
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 2: We want to hear your stories, you know, because also

620
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 2: I just don't want people to be afraid to come

621
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 2: forward with their their feelings of being victimized, because it's

622
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 2: just incredibly embarrassing if you're an adult, or you feel

623
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 2: too much shame because you know you didn't know better.

624
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 5: So they we're talking about it. Yeah, I don't want

625
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 5: anybody to think that. I you know, if you came

626
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 5: forward with the story, I would think, oh, you weren't groomed.

627
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 5: I mean I'm not a you know, a heartless woman.

628
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 2: Of course, an incredible event.

629
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,719
Speaker 5: I just you know, I just feel like, you know,

630
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 5: the vulnerable and kids need a special protection and grooming

631
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 5: is the word that we've decided as society to use

632
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 5: for them, and we should reserve it for them.

633
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 2: M hm. I guess love bombing is another version of

634
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 2: grooming or is it someone comes in?

635
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:13,720
Speaker 5: I know that's another word. It's like the word trigger.

636
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 5: I hate the action of blah, but I can tell

637
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 5: when it's happening, and it's like, oh, I can't.

638
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 2: It just grosses me out. Yeah, it's such a red flag.

639
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,720
Speaker 4: I can Okay, I'm not going to out my husband

640
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 4: on a red flag, but honor and he was he.

641
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 2: Actually he was not a great bomber, his husband.

642
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:36,280
Speaker 4: But our very first date was two days before my birthday,

643
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 4: and he had when we were walking into the date,

644
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 4: I was confirming with someone, yes, that's my birthday plans,

645
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 4: and he said, oh, I wish you told me.

646
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 2: I said why. He said, I would have brought you something.

647
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 2: And I said, you don't know me like I was.

648
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,879
Speaker 2: You're a tough cookie, though you are.

649
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 4: You are.

650
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 2: Courtney is like the barometer of what's what you know.

651
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 2: I'll leave a situation and be like that was a

652
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 2: They seem wonderful, and then Courtney gets in the car

653
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 2: is like hard. Note.

654
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 5: I think the reason you haven't joined a cult is

655
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 5: because of Courtney.

656
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 2: The night is still young, The night is still young.

657
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 5: If you want Stephanie to join your cult, give us

658
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 5: a call at eighty and eight thirty one Crime and

659
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 5: tell us about your cult. She might be interested, especially

660
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 5: if you guys have Bravo.

661
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:30,240
Speaker 2: My summer house rules true. Hey, we have ourselves a caller, Elon,

662
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 2: Welcome to the show. What's your question?

663
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 8: Hi, there have an epscene inquiry. I've worked with medical

664
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 8: examiners before that go out to the scene for a suicide,

665
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 8: and I am just perplexed why Epsteine was removed and

666
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,800
Speaker 8: taken to a hospital before anything was done with his body,

667
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 8: like whether pictures taken up the scene. I'm just unsure.

668
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 2: It's so funny you say that because we had Joseph

669
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 2: Scott Morgan, the forensics expert, on Sunday and he had

670
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 2: shared with us the autopsy photographs, and I had a

671
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 2: similar question because he had made mention that they were

672
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 2: taken at the coroner's office. And to your point, oftentimes

673
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 2: a medical examiner or a coroner will go to the

674
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 2: scene and as a result, there was that puddling in

675
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 2: the back of his back, Courtney that you had noted,

676
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 2: and that seemed it was because it had been sitting

677
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 2: for a while, or he had been sitting for a while,

678
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 2: and it maybe had been in a refrigerator if I'm

679
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 2: remembering Christley. Yes first, well, so gross. Sorry, but I

680
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 2: have that same thought, and I regret not asking, and

681
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 2: I feel like we should phone a friend right now.

682
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 2: It's a little late to call Joseph, but I kind

683
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 2: of want to. That's a great question.

684
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,439
Speaker 5: We know for sure that there weren't photos taken from

685
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:47,359
Speaker 5: the inside. Look, I actually like I could from us right, Yeah,

686
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 5: there could be different.

687
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 4: We don't know for a certain tude. We do know

688
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 4: for a certain tude that the photos that we were

689
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 4: seen from the autopsy those are the autopsy photos. And

690
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 4: we do know that there were photos taken when the

691
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 4: body and.

692
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 5: We've seen the photos from inside the cell, but none

693
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 5: of Epstein in the cell.

694
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 2: Right, No, we've seen the photos in the cell. That

695
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 2: was you know, a mess right, it was messy. It

696
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 2: was kind of disastrous, which seemed interesting just because you know,

697
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 2: you think of a cell, it's supposed to be so

698
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 2: neat and tidy. You know, you're cleaning everything with a toothbrush,

699
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 2: is at least how we picture it. Apparently that was

700
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 2: not the case. That also kind of makes you think

701
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,879
Speaker 2: of maybe there was a hustle or a stir or

702
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 2: some sort of something active happened, which maybe would not

703
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 2: be the case in a suicide. And then we saw

704
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 2: the photographs that seem to have been taken while he

705
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 2: was on a gurney, right, and those photographs, Yeah, those

706
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 2: definitely were not in the cell, at least not the

707
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 2: ones that I see. Well he's wearing he's wearing like

708
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 2: a hospital gown. Yeah, yeah, photos. Right, thank you so much.

709
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 2: That's so interesting.

710
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 4: I love to Actually, we want to try and find

711
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 4: out that information because I feel like, honestly, it's necessarily

712
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 4: going to be. Yeah, it's necessarily you're hanging. It's necessarily

713
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 4: a suicide or a homicide. It's not one hundred. I

714
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 4: can't imagine have natural causes you think.

715
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 5: I can't imagine that some sort of medical officer didn't

716
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:12,439
Speaker 5: visit him in the cell.

717
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:13,760
Speaker 2: I do find that hard to imagine.

718
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 5: I can't imagine they just put him on a in

719
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 5: a body bag and no put attendance to Joseph on

720
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 5: his podcast body Bags, which we love, that they put

721
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 5: him in a body bag and shipp him off to

722
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 5: the medical examin er.

723
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 2: I can't imagine that somebody didn't come out like. I

724
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 2: can't either. But the question that Elon raised is very curious. Ballent.

725
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 4: We just listed off a bunch of pictures that we

726
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 4: have seen, and none of them include right, you know

727
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 4: the crime, the crime scene with the body.

728
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 2: I wish I hadn't seen your photos. They really disturbed me.

729
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 2: They didn't bother me stuff. I know, you guys were

730
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 2: pretty good sports about it.

731
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 4: Well, I didn't like being surprised, and I saw it

732
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 4: after I said, oh, I said that I don't like us,

733
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 4: and then I started studying.

734
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 5: It and now I was like pension on my phone

735
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 5: and zooming in a problem too.

736
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 2: But I but I like it like you. I would

737
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, it really like got in my gourd

738
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 2: a little bit for what it was.

739
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 5: I think if it was like a victim, it would

740
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 5: like a murder victim or somebody I cared about, I

741
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 5: would bother me. But Epstein, Okay, that looks good to

742
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 5: met them off.

743
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 2: Well, you know, and thank you for the call. Keep

744
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 2: them coming, everybody, eight eight eight three one crime. We're

745
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 2: going to be right back talking more about the Hillside

746
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:27,399
Speaker 2: Strangler serial killer. Yeek, body's been following that closely. This

747
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 2: is true crime tonight. We're talking true crime all the time,

748
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 2: So we're going to be kind of switching gears a

749
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 2: little bit to the Hillside Strangler serial killer. If you

750
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 2: haven't heard about him, he's actually been denied parole for

751
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 2: the eighth time, and body's been following this very clearly

752
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 2: and carefully. And also later in the show, God, well,

753
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 2: when we get to it, we're going to be unpacking

754
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 2: this Abercrombie and Fitch international sex scandal. I mean, my goodness,

755
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 2: it never seems to end on that front. And also

756
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 2: a little bit more on the Gary coleman Lie Detector

757
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 2: ex wife mess. More on that to come. So, Courtney,

758
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 2: where would you like to begin?

759
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 4: So the Travis Decker search, it sadly has not concluded,

760
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 4: and Travis Decker is the man we may remember. He

761
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 4: it's alleged that he murdered his three young daughters, all

762
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 4: under the age of ten. There has been a gigantic

763
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:40,320
Speaker 4: multi agency search for him. But what was breaking news

764
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 4: was we found him for a moment. And unfortunately, it

765
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 4: turns out that a hiker named Nick just had a

766
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 4: really bad case of mistaken identity and he only learned

767
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 4: that he was the actual subject of the police search

768
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 4: when a friend texted him about the man hunt and

769
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 4: he immediately contacted the authorities confirmed he wasn't Decker, and

770
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 4: he voluntarily, as I said, did reach out and said

771
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 4: I quote, oh my god, they think I was that guy.

772
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,439
Speaker 4: So in fact, Nick was not that guy. And uh

773
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,840
Speaker 4: so good news for Nick. He is free to continue hiking.

774
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 2: And I wonder how he knew they were talking about him.

775
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 2: I guess the tattoos. They were like the tattoos, and they

776
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 2: said that he had the ear plug. Yeah, it was

777
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 2: pretty specific. And by the way, that could be very dangerous.

778
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,439
Speaker 2: There could have been a vigilante on the loose that said,

779
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 2: you know, oh, that's the kid killer, the man that

780
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 2: murdered his three daughters. Thank god, taking out myself.

781
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:46,879
Speaker 5: The family that saw him contacted the authorities, right, well,

782
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 5: thank god they did what they were supposed to do.

783
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 5: They didn't take the law into their own hands. They

784
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 5: called the authorities. Thank god, you know, and thank god

785
00:41:54,760 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 5: Nick wasn't hurt. My goodness, imagine. And so there was

786
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 5: that what do you have body, Beyonce? I got listen,

787
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 5: I'm on Beyonce's Internet. I'm willing to talk about Beyonce. Okay,

788
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 5: let's go beyond this. I didn't know this happened. So

789
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:14,760
Speaker 5: during Beyonce's Cowboy Carter tour stop in Atlanta on July

790
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 5: eighth last week, thieves broke into a vehicle belonging to

791
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 5: her choreographer Christopher Grant and dancer DeAndre Blue, and they

792
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 5: stole a bunch of stuff. And one of the things

793
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 5: that they stole were some flash drives with unreleased music,

794
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 5: set lists and show footage plans, along with like some

795
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 5: designer items and electronics. And so now this, you know,

796
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 5: Beyonce's tour is kind of in jeopardy because this, this

797
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 5: unreleased music is supposed to be done at the last

798
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 5: leg of her concert, isn't that right?

799
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,839
Speaker 2: Wow? Like it's compromised. It's compromised.

800
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 5: And so the Atlanta Police Department is tracked stolen laptops

801
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 5: and AirPods, identified a suspect vehicle and may have attained Oh,

802
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 5: they have obtained an ear to warrant, though no arrest

803
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 5: has been made. Beyonce's tour in Atlanta wrapped up in

804
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 5: July fourteenth, with a tour continuing through July twenty sixth

805
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 5: in fabulous Las Vegas where I live.

806
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 2: Wow, that would be such a big pace of theft.

807
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 4: I mean, what is the monetary value putting on that?

808
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 2: Millions?

809
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 5: I want to know why unreleased music is sitting on

810
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 5: an unsecure flash drive in somebody's car.

811
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 2: That's a good point. Comfortable oversight, that's f Yeah, but

812
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 2: like also you're comfortable, you know, you're on the road.

813
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 2: Who hasn't been on the road sometimes? I mean I

814
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 2: haven't been on a concert tour, but you know, on

815
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 2: TV shows and things, you get on the road to

816
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 2: get comfortable. After a while, you're not.

817
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 5: Really but still it's an unsecure I mean, I'm guessing

818
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 5: it's an unsecure flush Listen, if you're Beyonce's like manager

819
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 5: or whatever, hit me up. I'll help you secure that

820
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 5: stuff on your flush drives. Like, let's get some protection

821
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 5: for that stuff. Like, come on, you tell us in

822
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 5: general about protection?

823
00:43:57,600 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 2: Is there anything that just like the wise women we

824
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 2: are need to know that, just like the basics, don't

825
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 2: get on the internet. Oh, don't get on the internet.

826
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,399
Speaker 2: So like, if you're on the internet, you're curious, you're

827
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:12,959
Speaker 2: you're in troubled waters. That's a whole other show.

828
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 5: I mean, it's a whole there's a whole nother show.

829
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 5: Like fine, one thing I will tell you is keep

830
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,760
Speaker 5: your things private. Don't post things from inside your house

831
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 5: on Instagram. You know, things like that. You know, that's

832
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 5: why I wonder one of the reasons I never film

833
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 5: in my home. For the shows that I've been on,

834
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 5: I've been three or four shows now, none of them are.

835
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 2: Filmed in my home. You have a little fake home. Yeah,

836
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 2: they get airbnbs h Yeah, we do that as well

837
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 2: for people and there, you know, just for their security, right,

838
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 2: you know.

839
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 5: I think, well, I think that's how possibly Brian Coberger

840
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 5: from you know, of course the murder of the College

841
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 5: Idaho student murders.

842
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 2: I think that's how he kind of knew the layout

843
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 2: of the home. Yeah, that's kind of my takeaway too,

844
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 2: having you know, quick ninded the podcast together and then

845
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 2: having now done the doc sort of the take away

846
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 2: way really was you have to really be careful of

847
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 2: what you're posting. We all do it, but we all

848
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 2: go in stores and entrances and exits in your mailbox

849
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 2: number or your car license plate, you know, just like

850
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 2: the stuff that's in the background. That can be really

851
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 2: telling if you're a weirdo looking to find out more

852
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 2: about a person.

853
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 4: And you're aware about you know, instead of I'm about

854
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 4: to be on vacation for ten days, which is basically

855
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 4: just a sign saying come rob my empty house.

856
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, that happens a lot too. It does happen most

857
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 2: from vacation.

858
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:34,359
Speaker 9: Either.

859
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 2: If you're going to post about your vacation, do it

860
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 2: when you're back, exactly, exactly.

861
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, don't be like I'm in Barcelona. Yeah, my house

862
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 5: full of all my electronic equipment is you know, available

863
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 5: for you, and it's unprotected and unsecured. My bitcoin wallet

864
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 5: is available as well. You know, don't do that. Those

865
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 5: are really simple, simple things. But yeah, you're listening to

866
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 5: true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm body Moved and I'm

867
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 5: here with Stephanie and Courtney and we're about to get

868
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 5: into the Hillside Strangler. If you want to weigh in,

869
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 5: give us a call at eighty eight thirty one Crime

870
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 5: or leave us a talkback Courtney.

871
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 2: What do we got? Okay?

872
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 4: So, the convicted Hillside Strangler, he's a serial killer aka

873
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 4: Kenneth Bianki. He since changed his name though, real quick

874
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 4: about that. So Kenneth Bianki. People know the name Kenneth Bianki.

875
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 4: If you are into your crime, you know Kenneth Bianki

876
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 4: is the Hillside Strangler. He changed his name in twenty

877
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 4: twenty three to something to motto Anthony Demo Anthony Demoto.

878
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 5: Thank you in twenty twenty three, and the reasons for

879
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 5: that change have never really been made public, but a

880
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 5: lot of people think it's to distance himself from like

881
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 5: his past, right, Like, he's a new person for potential

882
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 5: parole hearings. So keeping that in mind, keeping that in mind,

883
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 5: So his new legal name is Anthony Dimatto. We're gonna

884
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,800
Speaker 5: call him the Hillside Strangler for the purposes of the show,

885
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,240
Speaker 5: but keeping that in mind, Go ahead, Courtney, yep.

886
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 2: Okay, stand the rational more.

887
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, So Hillside Strangler has been denied prol and this

888
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 4: is the eighth time in his forty six years behind bars,

889
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 4: and he'll be eligible again in a decade. So we

890
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 4: thought this was a good time to go into the

891
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 4: Hillside Strangler because it's sort of a name a lot

892
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 4: of people know but don't know a lot about the background.

893
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 2: Right.

894
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 4: So, he has admitted to five murders in California and

895
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 4: two in Washington State. But then he seemed to have

896
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 4: changed his tune and said, oh no, I'm innocent. I

897
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 4: was coerced by hypnotic manipulation.

898
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 5: Right, and he like he basically was trying to come

899
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 5: up with an insanity defense. Right, he was trying to

900
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,320
Speaker 5: say that, you know, despite him pleaing guilty and despite

901
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 5: his confession, he insisted over appeal left or appeal and whatnot,

902
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 5: that he was innocent and he was coerced and he

903
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 5: had this hypnotic manipulation and all the facts of his

904
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 5: confession did not match the physical evidence, which is some

905
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 5: semi true, but he was They found him to be lying.

906
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 5: Bianki eventually pled guilty to the because he murdered throughout

907
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 5: Washington in California, and he pled guilty to the Washington

908
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 5: murders and the five murders in California testifying against his cousin.

909
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 5: By the way, that's why oftentimes you'll hear hillside strangler

910
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 5: or hillside stranglers because his cousin was also involved. Which

911
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:30,839
Speaker 5: is very very interesting because normally serial killers is one

912
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 5: you don't share, you know, most in many, many times,

913
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 5: serial killers it's a very intimate thing, right, It's very private.

914
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 5: It's obviously you're not going to go around saying you're

915
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 5: still care serial killer. And it's also special to that person.

916
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 5: It's like their special thing, right, their thing, and so

917
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:53,800
Speaker 5: it's often not shared with the experience is not shared

918
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 5: with other people. And that's why the Hillside strangler is

919
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,360
Speaker 5: so interesting. Well, one of the reasons because he did

920
00:48:58,440 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 5: share this with a cousin.

921
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 2: Wow.

922
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, And do we know how many of the crimes

923
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 4: the cousin are?

924
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 5: Just not off hand? I don't not off hand. You know,

925
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 5: it's been so long. This happened in the seventies. I

926
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,279
Speaker 5: was like two years old, so it's it's something that

927
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 5: you know, I just gave away my age. Oh my god,

928
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 5: it's not good, thank you. So it's not something that I,

929
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 5: you know, of course, was old enough to follow as

930
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 5: it was happening, so I was always going, you know,

931
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 5: back in time about it. So I don't really know

932
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 5: how many the cousin was involved with. I think it's

933
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 5: the five in California, but I could be wrong about that.

934
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 5: If you know, let us know, give us a call,

935
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 5: eighty to eight thirty one crime, let's talk about it.

936
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

937
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And it just seemed I mean, do you even

938
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 4: stand a chance Is it even worth anyone's time to

939
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 4: go before a parole board if you're a convicted serial murderer.

940
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 5: I don't think so. I don't think so. I mean, no,

941
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 5: I don't. I think it's a waste of time. But

942
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 5: I think they have to procedurally do it, right. I

943
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 5: think it's a now Brian k Coberger won't because he

944
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:05,280
Speaker 5: has life without the possibility of role.

945
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 2: Right, so he won't right to sign it. I mean,

946
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 2: I think the purpose of prison is rehabilitation. I do.

947
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 2: I believe in that.

948
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,840
Speaker 5: I do think it can work, possibly for the Menenda's brothers,

949
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 5: for instance, who have seemed to flourish and done well

950
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 5: in prison and maybe have changed, you know, their outlook

951
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 5: on life and aren't going to kill people. And of

952
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:31,320
Speaker 5: course they've killed people that were close to them, so

953
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 5: they're probably not a danger to society at large. But

954
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 5: people like this are a danger to society at large.

955
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:40,360
Speaker 5: So I think it requires a little bit more rehabilitation.

956
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 5: And I just don't think they can be rehabilitated.

957
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 2: That's exactly right.

958
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 4: And I just if you could see what was going on,

959
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 4: I was raising my hands up, like, what do you mean?

960
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 4: Of course you are a danger to society. I mean

961
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 4: there are different levels that I think all of us

962
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 4: in society, you know, cand of agree on. If you're

963
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:05,799
Speaker 4: out literally discriminately murdering to please yourself, it's probably not

964
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 4: a thing that's gonna change any time too soon in

965
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 4: your DNA.

966
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,759
Speaker 5: No, No, I don't think so. But you know, he's

967
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 5: seventy four. Now, he is seventy four, So his next

968
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:19,439
Speaker 5: PARL hearing, he'll be eighty four years old and he's

969
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:21,879
Speaker 5: been in jail forty five years? Is that long enough time?

970
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 5: Do you think to heal somebody to be a new person.

971
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 2: I don't know. I know I'm a different person. Listen.

972
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 5: I'm fifty. I just gave my age away. But I

973
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 5: am a different person than I was when I was thirty.

974
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 5: You know, I'm a completely different person. But I was

975
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:37,880
Speaker 5: never a demon, you know what I mean. I was

976
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 5: never a serial killer or even remotely you know, in

977
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 5: that frame of mind. So I don't know if that's

978
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 5: I don't know.

979
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm going to hold on my standard of serial

980
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 4: killers with again the indiscriminate killing. You can stay where

981
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 4: you are and listen, we have a talk back. Let's

982
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 4: go to that first.

983
00:51:57,920 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 10: Hi, I just want to add something on the Epstein

984
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 10: video thing. I used to work loss prevention in a

985
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 10: different life and in my experience using multiple different types

986
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 10: of DVRs and brands as models. When you're missing footage,

987
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 10: it's because either the camera itself was down intentionally, maybe

988
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:13,840
Speaker 10: the system was shut off from maintenance, or the camera

989
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 10: itself was set to motion to safe space on the DVR.

990
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:18,839
Speaker 10: But it doesn't seem like that was the case. So

991
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 10: I think the problem with BONDI in this administration is

992
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 10: they think they're the smartest people in the room and

993
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 10: they're not.

994
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 5: I'd rate him, Yeah, seriously, you know there was in

995
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,920
Speaker 5: twenty twenty three, the doj oh I DO report noted

996
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 5: chronic camera failures at this facility where Epstein was the MCC,

997
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 5: including outages in the shoe, which is where Epstein was,

998
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 5: further complicating the integrity or the surveillance.

999
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 2: So he's got a really good point and also just

1000
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 2: the idea of being the smartest in the room. And

1001
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 2: I guess that goes back to your original point by

1002
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:54,279
Speaker 2: the earlier in the show. And by the way, if

1003
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 2: you've missed any of the show, you can catch it

1004
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 2: right after as a podcast. So no sweat is that,

1005
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:00,919
Speaker 2: you know, Yeah, we feel like we're just being made

1006
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 2: to feel foolish, like we all understand how to not everybody,

1007
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 2: but you know, even in our work, we know how

1008
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 2: to edit on Adobe. I feel like I could have

1009
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 2: done a better job on that, and I'm a dumb

1010
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:13,760
Speaker 2: dumb you know, on editing, and it does. It feels

1011
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 2: like we're just being tossed some silly information and expected

1012
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 2: to just keep it. And again, this is not a

1013
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 2: small matter. It's a really big deal. It's international sex

1014
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:29,359
Speaker 2: trafficking of young underage girls and that's got to stop. Yeah,

1015
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 2: and I've really loved eight. Yes, it has to stop.

1016
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 2: I totally agree with that, Steph, Stephanie. And then also

1017
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 2: what you said with your talk.

1018
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 4: Back, You know how Bondie or whomever has a microphone

1019
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 4: in front of them thinks of the smartest person in

1020
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:45,359
Speaker 4: the room at the moment.

1021
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 2: You know, for those who haven't been paying attention. Essentially,

1022
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 2: this was this infamous client list that was being promised.

1023
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 2: Then we were told there was no client list. Then

1024
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 2: we were told no sweat as proof though that Epstein

1025
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 2: actually did in fact commit suicide. We're going to release

1026
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 2: this unedited, raw, eleven hour video, only to find out

1027
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 2: that it was in fact edited. And then Pam Bondy,

1028
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:11,760
Speaker 2: whether it's just her or she's getting that order from above.

1029
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 2: I have to assume many people were in the know

1030
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 2: at this point basically said okay, sorry about that. It

1031
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 2: was really just one minute that was missing, and that's

1032
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 2: a common thing. You know, every night, at a certain hour,

1033
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 2: one minute of a tape goes missing. Okay, So that's

1034
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 2: like that was the bone they threw us. This was

1035
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 2: just you know, moments ago, days ago, and now today

1036
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 2: it's like, actually that's not true. It's actually almost three minutes.

1037
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 2: And again it's like maybe the lie is just the

1038
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 2: tip of the iceberg, and it just makes maybe all

1039
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:43,440
Speaker 2: of us And this is one thing, I like, the

1040
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:47,240
Speaker 2: all of us. We feel kind of this collective unity

1041
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 2: of everyone feeling like, huh, you're gonna lie to us

1042
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:54,200
Speaker 2: about that? Well, what else is getting misrepresented to us

1043
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 2: as a whole, not just as a political side. And

1044
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:00,719
Speaker 2: you know, maybe that's the only thing that good could

1045
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 2: come out of this, is that we're kind of all

1046
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 2: in unison right now as a community and as a country.

1047
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 2: Maybe this is the thing that brings you know, Americans together. Yeah,

1048
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 2: I think we all could agree we don't want this

1049
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 2: to continue.

1050
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 5: Right, And I think it's important to note too that

1051
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:18,959
Speaker 5: we all expect that, you know, the metadata would show

1052
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 5: that it was edited by a premiere pro because they

1053
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:24,400
Speaker 5: have to do with the extraction from the surveillance system

1054
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 5: and it has to be then loaded onto some sort

1055
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 5: of device for upload to the dj website. That's completely understandable,

1056
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 5: and that's not what we're talking about. The metadata is

1057
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:38,800
Speaker 5: showing that the video was edited and saved many many

1058
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 5: times over the course of like a three hour period,

1059
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 5: and then of course we're missing you know, two minutes

1060
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:47,360
Speaker 5: and fifty eight seconds. So it's not that it was

1061
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 5: you know, the metadata shows that it's been edited by Adobe.

1062
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:53,359
Speaker 5: It's the missing time and all the saves that are

1063
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 5: the red flags. So yeah, that was the first report

1064
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 5: from the digital forensics at people at Wired was that

1065
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 5: it's missing minute. And you can clearly see you don't

1066
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:03,959
Speaker 5: need forensics to tell you that the time jumps from

1067
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 5: you so shocking. It's a lesson eight to midnight, right, Yeah,

1068
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 5: So that's the first excuse because that was the first

1069
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:12,360
Speaker 5: thing that was called up, Oh there's a minute missing.

1070
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:14,959
Speaker 2: Well, that's like an snl skit.

1071
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 4: It's like candy gram like it's that obvious and ridiculous.

1072
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:22,799
Speaker 2: And I guess it does show I guess to the

1073
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:26,720
Speaker 2: you know, caller's point. Maybe that's just the lead here

1074
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:31,719
Speaker 2: we are thought of as really dumb, right, and that

1075
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 2: is pretty scary, and that the lead is that it's

1076
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 2: really common to lie, whether that's to get into office

1077
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:41,799
Speaker 2: or to make big deals happen. Again, not Republicans or Democrats.

1078
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 2: I think it's like everybody seems to be in on it,

1079
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 2: and that we're the jokes, jokes on us.

1080
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 4: Well, I think things will continue coming to a head.

1081
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:55,600
Speaker 4: So let's see what kind of clarity maybe we all get. Maybe,

1082
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:58,880
Speaker 4: So this is true crime tonight. We are on iHeartRadio

1083
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 4: Courtney arm Strong here with Body Moven and Stephanie Lydecker,

1084
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 4: and we have just been talking about Epstein and the

1085
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 4: tape and the leaks and the sex trafficking and all

1086
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 4: of the above. We've been hearing from you and we

1087
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 4: want to continue to do so. Always give us a call.

1088
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 4: We're at eighty eight three to one Crime or you

1089
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 4: can hit us on the talkbacks. But now we're going

1090
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 4: to hop from that mess into another. And this is

1091
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:27,280
Speaker 4: the case.

1092
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:29,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's.

1093
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 7: Right.

1094
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 5: I think that there's just so many of these stories.

1095
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:36,920
Speaker 5: Of course, we're going to be talking about the abercombian

1096
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 5: Fitch story and the former CEO of Abercombie and Fitch

1097
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 5: whose name is Michael Jeffries. He was charged with running

1098
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 5: an inner national sex trafficking ring a couple of months

1099
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:52,440
Speaker 5: ago in May, and he unfortunately was found unfit to

1100
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 5: stand trial because he has Alzheimer's. In the judges ordered

1101
00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 5: that he, you know, go to this medical facility to

1102
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 5: be under observation to see because condition improves. So that's

1103
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 5: kind of where we're at right now. But it just

1104
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 5: seems like one scandal after another with these people, and

1105
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:10,920
Speaker 5: quite frankly, I'm tired of them. I'm tired of these

1106
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 5: stories because it's just it's disgusting. It grosses me out

1107
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 5: as a person, and it's just but it's happening right

1108
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 5: under our noses.

1109
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:24,000
Speaker 2: We have to talk about it. Some people are speculating online. Again,

1110
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 2: I look at all the sources in terms of far right,

1111
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 2: far left, and then everything in between. So you know,

1112
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 2: there is chatter that this was a huge sex trafficking ring, right,

1113
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:41,000
Speaker 2: young boys being lured, drugged, you know, trafficked under the

1114
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 2: guise of furthering their modeling career. Yeah, if I remember

1115
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 2: that store, Abercrombie and Fitch, sure, you know, like they

1116
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:49,920
Speaker 2: always had like the young hot kind of you was

1117
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 2: really more boys, right, like topless, good looking male models,

1118
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:57,360
Speaker 2: but they were young that were always like outside the

1119
00:58:57,400 --> 00:58:59,600
Speaker 2: store kind of telling people to come in. It always

1120
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 2: kind of melt like cologne. By the way, I used

1121
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 2: to love this store, so they used to have the

1122
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:08,440
Speaker 2: best genes and probably still do. And sure enough, again

1123
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:14,240
Speaker 2: powerful people dragging these young boys and essentially drugging them

1124
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 2: and sex trafficking them in a manner that is really

1125
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 2: a hideous. But also the magnitude is pretty unparalleled, if

1126
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 2: not by Epstein. It's again same level, same amount. I mean,

1127
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 2: it's happening internationally, maybe at a different you know, Epstein's

1128
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:36,120
Speaker 2: a little bit more high profile men and maybe being blackmails,

1129
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 2: right and in this case it's this is similar file men, Yeah,

1130
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:46,240
Speaker 2: taking these young boys and subjecting them to unspeakable things, right.

1131
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:48,480
Speaker 5: Well, and it's alleged that he was working with his

1132
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:52,920
Speaker 5: romantic partner Matthew Smith and a third person, James Jacobson,

1133
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 5: so the CEO, mister Jeffries, he would use those two

1134
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 5: to lure men to see sex parties with the possibility

1135
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 5: that they received modeling jobs. So it's kind of like

1136
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 5: they were his glean. Maxwell exactly they were grooming dare

1137
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 5: we say, right? So another version of grooming yet again.

1138
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 5: And it's so sick and it's been happening for so long.

1139
01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 2: So a like gross as it is, Thank god we're

1140
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 2: talking about it, so at least we know what to

1141
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:22,800
Speaker 2: look for in the world. Also, some we're saying that,

1142
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:26,080
Speaker 2: you know, maybe all this EPSTEINSS and the Diddy case

1143
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:28,840
Speaker 2: was a distraction to get us off of this case,

1144
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:32,000
Speaker 2: because it's also massive and by the way, it hasn't

1145
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 2: gotten a ton of mainstream news. I haven't seen this

1146
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:38,200
Speaker 2: on the ticker on just about any network that I watch,

1147
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 2: and all there was a documentary about that.

1148
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:44,280
Speaker 4: There was It was actually a documentary from the BBC

1149
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:49,160
Speaker 4: that broke the story. And the allegations are that all

1150
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:52,560
Speaker 4: of the nefarious things you guys have been speaking about

1151
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:55,720
Speaker 4: it went on from all the way from two thousand

1152
01:00:55,720 --> 01:01:00,760
Speaker 4: and eight till about twenty fifteen. Dozens of men were involved,

1153
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:03,520
Speaker 4: and as you said, it was you know, using his

1154
01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 4: position to cource these victims into sexually exploitative situations. And

1155
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:15,400
Speaker 4: it was really according they were forced into having sex,

1156
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:20,040
Speaker 4: they were forced to have alcohol and drugs and viagra,

1157
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 4: So it was really brutal.

1158
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:24,160
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1159
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:26,560
Speaker 5: And they used their money and influence, just like Jeffrey

1160
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:30,200
Speaker 5: Epstein right to prey on these vulnerable men. I mean,

1161
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:33,439
Speaker 5: and they used, of course the underlings, these two other men,

1162
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:37,479
Speaker 5: his romantic partner and another guy to lure these men

1163
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:38,440
Speaker 5: to these parties.

1164
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:40,120
Speaker 2: Can it be any creepy or too?

1165
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:40,240
Speaker 9: Like?

1166
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 2: Why are all of these people into underage sex?

1167
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:44,720
Speaker 9: Like?

1168
01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 2: Can we just knock it off with the grossness? It's

1169
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:49,520
Speaker 2: just so inappropriate, And it's amazing to me that this

1170
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:52,959
Speaker 2: is so widespread. We always heard about it. It always

1171
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:55,720
Speaker 2: seemed like something that the weirdo down the block maybe did.

1172
01:01:55,760 --> 01:02:00,760
Speaker 2: But we're talking about really successful, influential peace people who

1173
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:04,640
Speaker 2: could have very healthy lives. It's so scary. Honestly, hold

1174
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 2: your baby's clothes. Yeah.

1175
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:09,200
Speaker 5: Well, for an update on where this is right now,

1176
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:11,760
Speaker 5: you know, he's in the hospital being observed for his

1177
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:15,080
Speaker 5: Alzheimer's to see if he can stand trial, and the

1178
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 5: doctors are saying that you know, he's an older man

1179
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:22,960
Speaker 5: and based on independent evaluations of three separate doctors, he

1180
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 5: has severe dimension Alzheimer's, which ensures and this isn't quotes

1181
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 5: ensures continuing decline over time.

1182
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 2: So it doesn't look like perfect, right, Yeah, it is

1183
01:02:32,560 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 2: all nice. It was kind of like Weinstein, you know,

1184
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:37,360
Speaker 2: crawling in on a walker, I know it, you know,

1185
01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 2: or Cosby crawling in on a walker. How convenient, right?

1186
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:46,000
Speaker 2: They seemed pretty healthy when they were assaulting young men. Okay, well, anyway,

1187
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:48,560
Speaker 2: we're going to move on to lighter subjects. Dare I

1188
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:51,720
Speaker 2: say thank you for keeping his convo going eight eight,

1189
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:53,960
Speaker 2: eight to three one crime. We absolutely want to hear

1190
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:56,480
Speaker 2: from you. This is true crime tonight. We're talking in

1191
01:02:56,480 --> 01:03:09,000
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. We're talking true crime all

1192
01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:11,880
Speaker 2: the time. I'm Steph. I'm here with Courtney and body

1193
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 2: and listen. We're so happy to be hearing from you.

1194
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:17,200
Speaker 2: Thank you for the calls. We have a talkback right now.

1195
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:22,560
Speaker 6: Hi, this is Tam from Greenfield, Indiana. I'm the Brian Cooldberger.

1196
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:27,680
Speaker 6: Do you think that he took this play deal because

1197
01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:31,080
Speaker 6: now he's going to make millions on a book deal,

1198
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:36,440
Speaker 6: And do the families have a way to file a

1199
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 6: civil suit so that he cannot profit from that?

1200
01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:42,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a got This is such a good question,

1201
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:45,040
Speaker 5: and it's actually a whole segment I wanted to propose.

1202
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:48,120
Speaker 5: I'm kind of glad we're talking about it. So Idaho.

1203
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:51,600
Speaker 5: First of all, the son of Sam Law. So if

1204
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:54,880
Speaker 5: you guys remember David Berkowitz, the son of Sam, Right,

1205
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:57,240
Speaker 5: he's the serial killer out of New York. Remember he

1206
01:03:57,360 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 5: was saying his dog was telling him to kill people.

1207
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:02,000
Speaker 2: Do you remember he was like going up to lovers

1208
01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:04,680
Speaker 2: that were making out in their cars in New York

1209
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:07,000
Speaker 2: back in the day. Right, this is like in the seventies, right,

1210
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:08,920
Speaker 2: And he called himself the son of Sam because he

1211
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:11,400
Speaker 2: would write letters and Okay, so the son of Sam

1212
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:15,160
Speaker 2: Law was passed in New York because there were concerns

1213
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:17,840
Speaker 2: that he was going to sell his story and make money.

1214
01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:20,440
Speaker 5: So New York passed a son of Sam Law. And

1215
01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:23,200
Speaker 5: what that basically said was you can't profit from your crime.

1216
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:27,000
Speaker 5: And other states kind of picked up that same in

1217
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:30,720
Speaker 5: the vein of the same son of Sam Law. Well

1218
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:35,040
Speaker 5: in I think the early nineties, the Supreme Court said

1219
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 5: it's unconstitutional because it also prevented people from profiting from

1220
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:41,640
Speaker 5: even talking about the crime. So like, for instance, true

1221
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 5: crime creators wouldn't it wouldn't be a thing, right, he decided,

1222
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:48,800
Speaker 5: So it became unconstitutional to have a son of Sam Law.

1223
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:53,520
Speaker 5: So states had kind of adapted the Son of Sam

1224
01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:59,560
Speaker 5: law to fit, you know, constitutional requirements. Idaho has one,

1225
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:04,320
Speaker 5: but it doesn't prevent the person from speaking about or

1226
01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:07,720
Speaker 5: profiting from the crime, but it does allow for the

1227
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:10,320
Speaker 5: families of the victims and other things to get the

1228
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:12,200
Speaker 5: restitution from the sales.

1229
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:13,680
Speaker 2: Of those things. I see.

1230
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:17,040
Speaker 5: Okay, So, because it has to be a really narrow

1231
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:22,240
Speaker 5: scope to be constitutionally appropriate, that's what Idaho decided to do.

1232
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:25,120
Speaker 5: You can, of course write a book and make profit

1233
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:26,960
Speaker 5: from it, but the family has the right to get

1234
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:31,960
Speaker 5: restitution based on that. So to answer the caller's question,

1235
01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 5: I don't necessarily think that's why he pled because he

1236
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 5: wants a profit, because there will be no ability for

1237
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:40,000
Speaker 5: him to really profit from anything the fam I mean,

1238
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:42,880
Speaker 5: do you really think do you really think that Steve

1239
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:44,280
Speaker 5: Gonsalvez is going to let that happen?

1240
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:47,760
Speaker 2: I certainly don't. Ooh, that's a tough one. I mean, man,

1241
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:51,200
Speaker 2: I would hope not. But we have seen, you know,

1242
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:55,440
Speaker 2: loved ones of killers make some money, and we know

1243
01:05:55,560 --> 01:05:58,200
Speaker 2: full well that that money that a loved one perhaps

1244
01:05:58,280 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 2: made was put to their defense, you know, a killer's

1245
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:05,680
Speaker 2: defense potentially. So that's complicated stuff. I would hope that

1246
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:09,960
Speaker 2: Brian Coburger does not see it dime. And even the

1247
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:13,120
Speaker 2: Karen Reid case, you know, like she obviously signed a

1248
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:16,360
Speaker 2: very lucrative book deal. We talked about that briefly yesterday,

1249
01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:20,000
Speaker 2: and look, her life was put on hold. She's you know,

1250
01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:23,240
Speaker 2: had to go through two trials. You know, no doubt

1251
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:26,920
Speaker 2: that's a financial, complete loss. I can only imagine how

1252
01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:29,840
Speaker 2: intense that must be. So on the one hand, I'm like, oh,

1253
01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:32,000
Speaker 2: I guess she should, you know, finally get paid and

1254
01:06:32,040 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 2: maybe get her life back on track. And then on

1255
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:37,320
Speaker 2: the other You're like, you know, a person did die,

1256
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:40,120
Speaker 2: and you know, does that money or half of that

1257
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:43,800
Speaker 2: money go to John O'Keefe's family or something. Is there

1258
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:47,760
Speaker 2: some way that victims can also get some of that money.

1259
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:50,320
Speaker 2: It's a complicated one. That's tough. I don't know, you

1260
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 2: would hope.

1261
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:55,360
Speaker 4: But with Karen Reid being you know, she was not guilty,

1262
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:58,840
Speaker 4: so yeah, she's I mean, she didn't kill him, right,

1263
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 4: right sort of law standard. She didn't kill them, So

1264
01:07:02,920 --> 01:07:07,760
Speaker 4: certainly don't stand of someone who's convicted apply I hear

1265
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:11,280
Speaker 4: what you're saying in terms of being a tasteful human being.

1266
01:07:11,720 --> 01:07:13,000
Speaker 2: Well, speaking of Karen Reid.

1267
01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:15,400
Speaker 5: Can can we talk about this really closs this breaking

1268
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:18,720
Speaker 5: news about Karen Reid, And I don't really completely understand

1269
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:21,880
Speaker 5: this is breaking by the way, so a juror, So,

1270
01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:24,520
Speaker 5: do you guys remember there was this federal probe into

1271
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:27,560
Speaker 5: the investigation of the Karen Reid case. Yes, and there

1272
01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:31,000
Speaker 5: was a federal grand jury convened. And one of the

1273
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:34,800
Speaker 5: jurors who sat on this grand jury that heard evidence

1274
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:38,280
Speaker 5: about the FBI investigation into the case has pled guilty

1275
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:42,080
Speaker 5: to leaking secret information about the witnesses who testified and

1276
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:45,960
Speaker 5: what their testimony was. And it's not clear. Her name

1277
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:49,680
Speaker 5: is Jessica Leslie. It's not clear like what she leaked

1278
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:52,840
Speaker 5: or who she leaked it too, or even what the

1279
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:56,880
Speaker 5: information was used for or who it was used by. However,

1280
01:07:57,120 --> 01:08:03,160
Speaker 5: she pled guilty, okay, and her sentence is one day, really.

1281
01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:05,640
Speaker 2: Day she has bananas. This goes back to the sequestering again.

1282
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:07,040
Speaker 2: I al, I struggle with this.

1283
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:09,320
Speaker 5: People are really kind of worked up about this because

1284
01:08:09,320 --> 01:08:12,560
Speaker 5: they're kind of wondering, like, Okay, this is a grand

1285
01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:15,200
Speaker 5: juries are It's kind of like a sacred thing in

1286
01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:19,560
Speaker 5: our country. It's secret, so very secret. What happens to

1287
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:22,479
Speaker 5: these grand juries, and so for her sentence to only

1288
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:25,080
Speaker 5: be one day, she violated one of the most sacred

1289
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:26,920
Speaker 5: tenets of our country, one of them.

1290
01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:27,200
Speaker 4: You know.

1291
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:32,160
Speaker 5: Well, people are saying, is it possible she's working with

1292
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:37,040
Speaker 5: the United States government for further probes into this investigation?

1293
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:41,559
Speaker 5: Like so, but again, there's no proof of that. We

1294
01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:42,080
Speaker 5: don't know.

1295
01:08:42,280 --> 01:08:45,040
Speaker 2: This is just what people are talking about online. Oh

1296
01:08:45,400 --> 01:08:46,720
Speaker 2: so that suggestion.

1297
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:51,479
Speaker 4: And I'm sounding a eureka ah, because we were talking

1298
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:53,880
Speaker 4: about this. I said, I don't understand the implications, but

1299
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:58,040
Speaker 4: hearing you describe it, body, do I understand it that

1300
01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:01,759
Speaker 4: perhaps this means that there might be a federal case

1301
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:06,920
Speaker 4: into the matter of John o'keith's death that would be

1302
01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:10,000
Speaker 4: completely separate from anything now I understand.

1303
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:14,080
Speaker 2: I think, so, oh wow, that's interesting. So that would

1304
01:09:14,120 --> 01:09:16,519
Speaker 2: be like the people, the people that were you know,

1305
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:20,559
Speaker 2: some of the cops that were brought into question. We

1306
01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:24,280
Speaker 2: won't name names. That's interesting. This doesn't affect Karen Reid

1307
01:09:24,479 --> 01:09:27,439
Speaker 2: and her verdict, however, No, not at all. I mean,

1308
01:09:27,720 --> 01:09:30,360
Speaker 2: for sure, doesn't you just go to sleep for once

1309
01:09:30,479 --> 01:09:32,920
Speaker 2: and have like nothing breathing down her throat?

1310
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:34,880
Speaker 5: I tend to think it has to do with the

1311
01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 5: investigation itself, and not necessarily what happened to John O'Keefe.

1312
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:41,680
Speaker 5: I mean, obviously, I think that's incredibly important, and I

1313
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:44,320
Speaker 5: think there could be federal chargers brought to somebody for that.

1314
01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:47,760
Speaker 5: But I think that it means something about the investigation.

1315
01:09:47,840 --> 01:09:50,439
Speaker 5: But I don't know what the grand juror would have

1316
01:09:50,479 --> 01:09:52,920
Speaker 5: to do with that. I don't know how I.

1317
01:09:52,920 --> 01:09:53,479
Speaker 2: Think it might be.

1318
01:09:53,840 --> 01:09:56,240
Speaker 5: I think it might be a way like a door

1319
01:09:56,280 --> 01:09:59,439
Speaker 5: open to John O'Keefe's investigation. But it's interesting and it's

1320
01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:01,320
Speaker 5: making the round, so I thought maybe know I bring

1321
01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:01,639
Speaker 5: it up.

1322
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:05,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, Well, we'll definitely keep everyone updated as the

1323
01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:08,919
Speaker 4: news comes out and listen. If you have any questions

1324
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:11,840
Speaker 4: or cases you wish we were following, give us a call.

1325
01:10:11,920 --> 01:10:15,000
Speaker 4: We're at eighty eight three to one prime and we

1326
01:10:15,080 --> 01:10:18,320
Speaker 4: do want to hear from you. And we actually have

1327
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:22,640
Speaker 4: another talking back also on Brian Coberger.

1328
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:24,360
Speaker 2: Let's see. Oh hi, my.

1329
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:25,080
Speaker 3: Name is Haley.

1330
01:10:25,240 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 9: I am curious as to when you think Brian Foldberger

1331
01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:33,080
Speaker 9: best to his defense attorney that he was guilty. I'm

1332
01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 9: having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea

1333
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:40,040
Speaker 9: as a defense attorney to just send someone I know

1334
01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:44,400
Speaker 9: is guilty of burnering for beautiful and experienced college students

1335
01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:45,960
Speaker 9: just write features ahead of them.

1336
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:48,559
Speaker 2: So that was kind of hard to hear.

1337
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:51,040
Speaker 5: Can I read? Because we got we have a transcript

1338
01:10:51,080 --> 01:10:53,880
Speaker 5: of what she said. She said, Hi, my name is Haley.

1339
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:57,400
Speaker 5: I'm curious as to when you think Brian Coberger confessed

1340
01:10:57,400 --> 01:11:00,320
Speaker 5: to his defense attorney that he was guilty. I'm having

1341
01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:03,200
Speaker 5: a hard time wrapping my head around the idea as

1342
01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:07,000
Speaker 5: a defense attorney to defend somebody I know is guilty

1343
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:10,240
Speaker 5: of murdering four beautiful, innocent college students with bright features

1344
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:10,760
Speaker 5: ahead of them.

1345
01:11:11,280 --> 01:11:14,479
Speaker 2: That's a good question. And not only that, but Ann.

1346
01:11:14,439 --> 01:11:20,360
Speaker 5: Taylor was fully prepared to accuse and condemn four innocent

1347
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:25,040
Speaker 5: people of being alternate perpetrators in this crime. So I

1348
01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:27,599
Speaker 5: have to think, you know, Anne Taylor is an excellent lawyer.

1349
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:31,080
Speaker 5: She has a really good reputation. She's death penalty qualified.

1350
01:11:31,080 --> 01:11:33,479
Speaker 5: She's only one of a handful in the state of Idaho.

1351
01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:36,519
Speaker 5: I have a hard time imagining she would be willing

1352
01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:39,360
Speaker 5: to do that if she knew her client was guilty. So,

1353
01:11:39,560 --> 01:11:42,840
Speaker 5: in my Pollyanna world, I want to say it came down.

1354
01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:46,280
Speaker 2: To the last minute. Oh what Courtney, you were going to.

1355
01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:49,599
Speaker 4: I was gonna say, Okay, Pollyanna, Pollyanna one hundred percent.

1356
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:50,880
Speaker 2: I agree. I don't know.

1357
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:54,920
Speaker 4: I mean, I certainly don't know at which point Coburger

1358
01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 4: did teal Anne Taylor. And I learned this from We've

1359
01:11:59,120 --> 01:12:03,160
Speaker 4: had many conversation Stephanie and I with defense attorney Perknermi.

1360
01:12:03,680 --> 01:12:07,120
Speaker 4: He defended Jody Arius as one of his many clients,

1361
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:12,080
Speaker 4: and I asked kind of the same question to him, Haley,

1362
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:15,280
Speaker 4: how do you know if you think someone's guilty or no,

1363
01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:19,320
Speaker 4: it doesn't matter. It is your legal and ethical obligation

1364
01:12:19,479 --> 01:12:23,080
Speaker 4: as a defense attorney, and particularly with the standard of

1365
01:12:23,160 --> 01:12:27,080
Speaker 4: when you are defending someone against the death penalty, you

1366
01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:32,240
Speaker 4: have to go forth with an absolutely vigorous defense. Now,

1367
01:12:33,479 --> 01:12:38,439
Speaker 4: what you can't do is you can't perjure yourself. But

1368
01:12:38,640 --> 01:12:43,679
Speaker 4: even that said, anything within the law. So let's take,

1369
01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:47,599
Speaker 4: for example, and I have zero inside knowledge, but take

1370
01:12:47,640 --> 01:12:50,640
Speaker 4: for example what you said body about Ann Taylor was

1371
01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:54,000
Speaker 4: going to present the potential that they were up to

1372
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:57,320
Speaker 4: four other people and they were planting it. Let's say

1373
01:12:57,320 --> 01:13:00,679
Speaker 4: that Coberger had said, I did it. You know, well,

1374
01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:03,240
Speaker 4: is it possible that while you were there, maybe there

1375
01:13:03,240 --> 01:13:05,760
Speaker 4: were some other people there and maybe they had the

1376
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:06,640
Speaker 4: chief and dropped it.

1377
01:13:07,080 --> 01:13:09,719
Speaker 2: Okay, I don't know, but that that makes sense.

1378
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:13,439
Speaker 4: That wouldn't be necessarily Alie, do you see what I'm saying?

1379
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:13,720
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1380
01:13:14,000 --> 01:13:16,920
Speaker 4: But anyway, the bottom line is, no matter how greosome

1381
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:18,880
Speaker 4: the crime, if you were a defense attorney, you must

1382
01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:20,719
Speaker 4: be vigorous in your defense.

1383
01:13:21,080 --> 01:13:22,960
Speaker 2: That I definitely agree. I mean, her number one thing

1384
01:13:23,040 --> 01:13:24,800
Speaker 2: is defend her client no matter what. Right.

1385
01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:26,840
Speaker 5: I just I have a hard time with her getting

1386
01:13:26,920 --> 01:13:30,160
Speaker 5: up in court and saying for you know, alternative perpetrators

1387
01:13:30,160 --> 01:13:32,439
Speaker 5: and these are the people and hear their names, and

1388
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:35,400
Speaker 5: I want to blame them for this when I know exactly.

1389
01:13:36,240 --> 01:13:38,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I struggle with this too, and especially if the

1390
01:13:38,439 --> 01:13:41,240
Speaker 2: state is paying for it, right, so why am I

1391
01:13:41,360 --> 01:13:44,400
Speaker 2: paying for it? In that case? You're using the Coburger example,

1392
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:48,680
Speaker 2: and it was a very expensive defense attorney because it

1393
01:13:48,720 --> 01:13:52,160
Speaker 2: was a death sentenced trial. So as a state, why

1394
01:13:52,200 --> 01:13:55,240
Speaker 2: are we paying for the defense of somebody who's lying?

1395
01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:58,679
Speaker 4: Well, there is you are not allowed to perjure yourself.

1396
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:01,519
Speaker 4: And listen, even the exact ample I just gave that

1397
01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:05,000
Speaker 4: may well have been a step too far. But even

1398
01:14:05,040 --> 01:14:07,920
Speaker 4: if you know your client one hundred percent, did it.

1399
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:11,320
Speaker 5: You know, wants to be Maybe we could get Jarrett,

1400
01:14:11,360 --> 01:14:13,479
Speaker 5: Maybe we could get Jared, Maybe we could get Jarrett

1401
01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:14,920
Speaker 5: to come on and talk about the son of Sam

1402
01:14:14,920 --> 01:14:16,000
Speaker 5: stuff and this.

1403
01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:18,760
Speaker 2: I mean, that's a good point, Courtney Armstrong. You know

1404
01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:21,920
Speaker 2: you're right. I remember very well the Kirk Nurmi who

1405
01:14:22,120 --> 01:14:25,479
Speaker 2: infamously defended Jody Arrius even tried to get off that case,

1406
01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:27,800
Speaker 2: and he wasn't able to because he was like, this

1407
01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:29,920
Speaker 2: one's a killa. He knew that she was up to

1408
01:14:30,040 --> 01:14:34,679
Speaker 2: no good and by law, by the job he had,

1409
01:14:34,800 --> 01:14:37,799
Speaker 2: he was not able to be removed as the defense

1410
01:14:37,840 --> 01:14:44,680
Speaker 2: attorney of Jody Aarius who infamously killed Travis, her then boyfriend, maliciously. Well,

1411
01:14:44,680 --> 01:14:46,040
Speaker 2: we should kind of dig into that a little bit

1412
01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:48,080
Speaker 2: more because I'm a little more confused. What a great

1413
01:14:48,120 --> 01:14:50,360
Speaker 2: talk back, Haley. We will be, you know, we'll be

1414
01:14:50,439 --> 01:14:54,320
Speaker 2: digging in, hopefully even later this week. Listen, We're shocked

1415
01:14:54,400 --> 01:14:56,840
Speaker 2: and in awe here. If you watch Vander pump Rolls,

1416
01:14:56,920 --> 01:15:00,160
Speaker 2: it's just come out that Brock cheated on Sheena. What

1417
01:15:00,240 --> 01:15:02,000
Speaker 2: is happening with this world? Enough is enough?

1418
01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:06,720
Speaker 4: Stephane a get on board broadcast Family in Australia for

1419
01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:09,719
Speaker 4: she'da past behavior determines future behavior.

1420
01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:10,799
Speaker 2: I'm not shocked.

1421
01:15:10,880 --> 01:15:13,880
Speaker 5: God almighty, we need another show just for Stephanie's like

1422
01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:15,559
Speaker 5: scandals and reality TV.

1423
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:18,000
Speaker 2: Can we believe it? Like I was holding out some

1424
01:15:18,120 --> 01:15:20,439
Speaker 2: hope in this humanity? All right, well we have a

1425
01:15:20,479 --> 01:15:22,120
Speaker 2: talk back and it won't be brought.

1426
01:15:22,439 --> 01:15:24,519
Speaker 11: Hey, y'all, Indy from Oakland here, and I just don't

1427
01:15:24,560 --> 01:15:26,920
Speaker 11: know if you guys have been following the Sam Hascoll case.

1428
01:15:27,080 --> 01:15:30,520
Speaker 11: Sam Heskell Junior is the son of like an LA producer,

1429
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:34,799
Speaker 11: and he killed his wife and her parents and then

1430
01:15:35,280 --> 01:15:38,600
Speaker 11: chopped up their bodies and put them in like dumpsters

1431
01:15:38,680 --> 01:15:42,719
Speaker 11: or dumpster in LA. Anyway, very gruesome, very traumatic case.

1432
01:15:42,840 --> 01:15:44,600
Speaker 11: But yeah, I just don't know if you guys have

1433
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:45,280
Speaker 11: been following it.

1434
01:15:45,560 --> 01:15:48,120
Speaker 2: Love you guys feel like we're doing a podcast about it.

1435
01:15:48,160 --> 01:15:51,000
Speaker 2: In fact we are. Yeah that is. Yeah, it's actually

1436
01:15:51,040 --> 01:15:53,920
Speaker 2: something we're kind of needy. Been a wow moment. Yeah,

1437
01:15:54,040 --> 01:15:58,200
Speaker 2: it's a really hideous. Yeah, Banana's case, that's such a

1438
01:15:58,200 --> 01:16:00,040
Speaker 2: great one, Indy, thank you for the call on he

1439
01:16:00,120 --> 01:16:00,759
Speaker 2: killed himself.

1440
01:16:00,960 --> 01:16:02,360
Speaker 5: I don't think she said that in the talk back,

1441
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:05,599
Speaker 5: but he killed himself yesterday and in jail. Yeah, so wow,

1442
01:16:06,160 --> 01:16:07,840
Speaker 5: that's crazy. I didn't know that he did. I mean,

1443
01:16:08,040 --> 01:16:10,479
Speaker 5: I know the case, and you know, this guy is

1444
01:16:10,479 --> 01:16:13,120
Speaker 5: so stupid. He hired a bunch of day labors. He

1445
01:16:13,240 --> 01:16:16,760
Speaker 5: chopped up his wife in her parents, and he put

1446
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:19,959
Speaker 5: their body parts in garbage bags and hired day labors

1447
01:16:20,000 --> 01:16:22,479
Speaker 5: to carry it to the dumpsters. And they were like

1448
01:16:22,479 --> 01:16:25,439
Speaker 5: what is this? And they opened the bags and they're

1449
01:16:25,479 --> 01:16:27,759
Speaker 5: presented with like limbs and heads and stuff.

1450
01:16:28,240 --> 01:16:30,840
Speaker 2: That's how we got a prominent family, like you really loving,

1451
01:16:30,920 --> 01:16:34,040
Speaker 2: really sad, you know, and you know, dismemberment.

1452
01:16:34,120 --> 01:16:34,360
Speaker 6: Man.

1453
01:16:34,600 --> 01:16:38,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like I can't things we can't understand. That

1454
01:16:38,160 --> 01:16:42,040
Speaker 2: is certainly one of them. And again some somebody who

1455
01:16:42,080 --> 01:16:46,120
Speaker 2: had a very affluent life or affluent I say that.

1456
01:16:46,240 --> 01:16:48,800
Speaker 2: So yeah, but whatever the word is that, you know,

1457
01:16:48,880 --> 01:16:51,160
Speaker 2: I had a lot of promise and really loving family,

1458
01:16:51,400 --> 01:16:55,799
Speaker 2: and you know, this clown really really destroyed a person's legacy,

1459
01:16:55,840 --> 01:17:00,559
Speaker 2: his family's legacy, and obviously dismembered his in laws. Yeah great,

1460
01:17:00,600 --> 01:17:01,240
Speaker 2: his wife.

1461
01:17:01,800 --> 01:17:03,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know this at all. We should definitely

1462
01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:05,639
Speaker 4: talk about locally upcoming.

1463
01:17:05,720 --> 01:17:07,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a local thing in La.

1464
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:10,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, I say that like I still live in La,

1465
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:12,160
Speaker 5: you know, I still in my mind I still live

1466
01:17:12,200 --> 01:17:13,479
Speaker 5: in California, still here.

1467
01:17:13,720 --> 01:17:16,439
Speaker 2: I'm coming home. All things good, All things good. Yeah,

1468
01:17:16,439 --> 01:17:18,080
Speaker 2: thank you for that though. And by the way, we've

1469
01:17:18,120 --> 01:17:22,320
Speaker 2: been getting so many great cases from you allso it's great.

1470
01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:25,080
Speaker 2: Keep the cases coming. We definitely are getting them if

1471
01:17:25,120 --> 01:17:27,160
Speaker 2: we are, if you don't hear about it right away,

1472
01:17:27,280 --> 01:17:29,200
Speaker 2: just because we're doing the deep dive so that we

1473
01:17:29,240 --> 01:17:32,679
Speaker 2: can share some new information. So yeah, keep cases coming.

1474
01:17:32,800 --> 01:17:33,720
Speaker 2: Definitely hit us up.

1475
01:17:34,560 --> 01:17:37,400
Speaker 4: And speaking of this was a talk back from yesterday

1476
01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:39,639
Speaker 4: and we only got to dig in a little tiny

1477
01:17:39,680 --> 01:17:42,760
Speaker 4: bit on Gary Coleman, but we will do a deeper dive.

1478
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:47,679
Speaker 4: But basically, Gary Coleman, he suffered a fatal head injury

1479
01:17:47,800 --> 01:17:51,800
Speaker 4: at his home in Utah when he fell and at

1480
01:17:51,800 --> 01:17:54,240
Speaker 4: the time he was home only with his ex wife,

1481
01:17:54,280 --> 01:17:59,519
Speaker 4: Shannon Price. And then what has come out is that

1482
01:18:00,439 --> 01:18:03,960
Speaker 4: she failed a lie detector test on a TV show

1483
01:18:04,040 --> 01:18:07,160
Speaker 4: Light Detective Truth or Dare on A and E. So

1484
01:18:07,439 --> 01:18:10,360
Speaker 4: we are kind of getting the facts together of that death.

1485
01:18:10,479 --> 01:18:14,439
Speaker 4: But basically his ex wife, Shannon Price feels like she's

1486
01:18:14,479 --> 01:18:16,400
Speaker 4: been living under a cloud of suspicion.

1487
01:18:16,479 --> 01:18:18,000
Speaker 2: She does not deserve right.

1488
01:18:18,320 --> 01:18:20,559
Speaker 5: I want to correct myself real quick on something I

1489
01:18:20,560 --> 01:18:22,360
Speaker 5: don't want to. I don't want to be completely wrong.

1490
01:18:22,439 --> 01:18:24,679
Speaker 5: Sam Haskell killed himself on Saturday.

1491
01:18:24,720 --> 01:18:27,880
Speaker 2: Now, yesterday. It's been one long feu day. It truly

1492
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:31,960
Speaker 2: has seems like yesterday, yaday, It truly has I don't

1493
01:18:31,960 --> 01:18:33,559
Speaker 2: even know what day it is. It's Tuesday, right, It's

1494
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:36,400
Speaker 2: Tuesday only because that was rare? Do I know that?

1495
01:18:36,840 --> 01:18:38,000
Speaker 9: Right? Man?

1496
01:18:38,240 --> 01:18:39,760
Speaker 2: I have to write it on a post it so

1497
01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:43,920
Speaker 2: I know how to track my days. So, yes, we

1498
01:18:43,960 --> 01:18:45,880
Speaker 2: have some interesting cases that we're going to be following

1499
01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:48,360
Speaker 2: tomorrow too. We're going to get a little bit more

1500
01:18:48,479 --> 01:18:53,840
Speaker 2: into this, you know, sweet Gary Coleman, America's sweetheart from yesteryear.

1501
01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:56,800
Speaker 2: We're going to do a deeper dive into that. I

1502
01:18:56,840 --> 01:18:58,439
Speaker 2: know we didn't get to a lot of the cases

1503
01:18:58,479 --> 01:19:01,240
Speaker 2: we were going to tonight, So make sure you stay

1504
01:19:01,280 --> 01:19:04,719
Speaker 2: with us because big show tomorrow. It's true crime tonight.

1505
01:19:04,760 --> 01:19:26,320
Speaker 2: We're talking true crime all the time. Have a great night.