WEBVTT - ALISON BECHDEL IS ON THE BECHDEL CAST!!! 0:00:00.960 --> 0:00:02.120 On the Bechdel Cast. 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:04.000 The questions asked if movies have. 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:07.960 Women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:11.879 or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:16.079 best start changing it with the Bechdel Cast. 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:22.360 Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. It's not April Fools. Maybe 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:25.600 you looked at the title of this episode and thought, no, there's. 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:28.479 No way that's real. But well, guess what. 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:31.240 Look at the month. It's not April, it's real. 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:35.400 It's May. And when we were joking on the April 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:38.120 Fool's episode on Snakes on a Plane where we were like, 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:43.600 it's been all leading up to this, that actually applies 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:45.479 to today's episode. 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:48.720 It's kind of true. I mean, I cannot believe that 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:51.840 this happened. We recorded this interview yesterday and I can't 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:54.880 believe it. If this is your first episode of the 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:57.720 Bechdel Cast and you're coming here because of our guest, 0:00:58.720 --> 0:00:59.760 my name's Jamie. 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.480 Loft It, my name is Caitlin Durante. 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:06.520 And this is our podcast where we talk about in 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:08.760 a normal episode. This is a very special episode. It 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:11.240 is just an interview, and not just an interview. It 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:14.040 is the interview, but we're not talking about a movie. 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:17.320 We're talking about living, laughing, loving with you know, she 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:21.039 who shall be named in just a moment. Every week 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:24.400 for almost nine years now, we have talked about your 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:28.959 favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens, using the and 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:34.880 here's where it gets interesting Bechdel test as a jumping off, 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:38.120 like for a discussion. And normally we would tell you 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:41.920 and the Bechdel test is this thing, and we tell 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:45.160 and someone invented it, and she's our guest today we've 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:49.120 been using her name. I truly have been I've like, 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:53.960 not quite lostly, but I've for years wondered, is she 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:57.200 mad at us? My favorite looping thought to have this 0:01:57.240 --> 0:01:59.720 person I've never met who doesn't know I exist, are 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:03.840 they at him? And we can answer definitively, it does. 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:05.840 It doesn't seem it doesn't seem like it. It doesn't 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:07.760 seem like we can't be sure. Maybe she was just 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:11.080 being nice, but it doesn't seem like it. We're so 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:14.839 thrilled to have Alison Bechdel on the show today. We 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:17.840 are talking about a couple of things. We're talking obviously 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:20.840 about the Bechdel Test, but we are also talking about 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:24.520 her new book Spent, which we've both gotten a chance 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:26.720 to read. It will be out right around the time 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:31.320 you're hearing this episode, and it's terrific. So yeah, I 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:34.920 guess what I wanted to say before we start is that, 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:37.680 you know, if you're listening to this, I'm assuming you're 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:40.720 familiar with the Bechdel Test, but if you're not familiar 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:45.240 with the work of Alison Bechdel, that really is where 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:49.280 the good shit is. And the more that we like 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:53.239 revisit her work because, as we've discussed, the Bechdel Test 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:55.160 was a one off joke she made in the eighties 0:02:56.480 --> 0:03:00.160 that has become a serious media metric. But so much 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:03.359 of what we actually talk about on this show, intersectional 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:07.800 feminist issues and just trying to survive in a capitalist hellscape. 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:10.480 That is literally what she's been writing about for forty 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:15.160 years in a very funny, thoughtful way. And so you know, 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:17.760 we'll have all the links in the description to her work, 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:19.960 but you know, let this be a reminder if you 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:24.239 haven't picked up in Alison Bechdel book, You simply must, 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:25.600 You simply must. 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:31.160 You simply must. And also she is touring with her 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:33.720 I think the tour has already kicked off by the 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:37.760 time you are hearing this episode, but she's on a 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:41.760 book tour in possibly a city near you, and so 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:46.520 check out her website her Instagram for tour dates and 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:52.920 be sure to go out and support Are now best 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:58.760 friend Alison Bechtel URBFF and I think, without much further ado, 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:04.840 here's our interview with our best friend, Alison Bechdel Enjoycast. 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:09.480 I'm going to say the very cliche thing that our 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:14.800 guest today needs no introduction, but it's true, and we're 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:19.440 going to introduce her anyway. She is an author and cartoonist. 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.760 Her works include Dikes to Watch Out For, Are You 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:26.799 My Mother? Fun Home, and her new comic novel Spent, 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:31.480 which everyone should buy right now. And our podcast is 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:36.560 named after her. It's Alison Bechdel, Hello and well welcome. 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.040 Hi Caitlin, Hi Jamie. I'm very happy to be here. 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:42.680 Oh We're so happy to have you. It's a dream 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:43.240 come true. 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:46.840 Thank you for naming your podcast after the Bechdel Test. 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:47.440 That's crazy. 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:48.159 Oh my gosh. 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:51.040 Thank you for we were talking about this off Mike. Thank 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:54.920 you for not being mad at us about it. This 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:57.520 is like, this is so surreal. We're so excited to 0:04:57.560 --> 0:04:57.880 have you. 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:00.479 I was just listening to some episodes. I I listened 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:03.000 to the Groundhog Day episode because that's one of my 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:05.120 favorite movies. Though of course it doesn't pass. 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:08.880 The test, and that's one of our very old episodes, 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:12.720 which we are I'm sure humiliated by in the year 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:13.520 twenty twenty five. 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:16.080 But well, Caitlin, I learned that you are also a 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:17.440 Pennsylvanian like me. 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:21.880 Yes, yes, I'm originally from rural western Pennsylvania and now 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:25.400 my family lives around the State College area. 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:28.480 So yeah, you were just in State College? I was, yeah, yeah, 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:29.680 and you went to penn State. 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:31.919 I did. I been doing a little research for my 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:35.440 first degree, which I would never mention, but but yeah, 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:37.360 so we have Pennsylvania roots. 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:40.160 Did you have fun in State College on this recent visit. 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:43.920 I did. I did a comedy show there at a 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:46.400 theater called the Blue Brick Theater. Everyone checked that out 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:48.680 if you're ever in the State College area. But yeah, 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:50.320 I did a stand up show and it was a 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:51.039 lot of fun. 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:51.920 Wow. 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:55.839 Yeah. But anyway, again, thank you so much for being here. 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:59.480 We want to start by just chatting a bit about 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:03.240 your new book, Book Spent, So just to start us off, 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:05.720 tell us a little bit about it, give us an overview, 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:07.440 and we'll go from there. 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:14.440 Spent is a subtitle is a comic novel, because of 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:18.640 course it's told in comics, and it's also hopefully funny. 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:22.520 It can confirm. 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:27.039 It's a kind of funny mashup of my memoirs that 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:30.719 I've written about me and my life and my comic 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:32.800 strip Likes to Watch out for from back in the 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.600 olden days in the eighties and nineties and early aughts, 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:39.960 where I wrote about a whole little community of friends. 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:44.280 In this new book, this new book, Spent, it's funny. 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:46.640 It was. My plan was that it was just going 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:48.520 to be another memoir. It was going to be like 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:50.640 fun Home or Are You My Mother? This book where 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:53.520 I looked at my own life, in this case, looked 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:56.919 at my own life, my financial life, and my relationship 0:06:56.960 --> 0:07:00.400 to money and privilege and living in capitalism and everything. 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:02.840 But when I sat down to start working on that, 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:05.239 I just felt like I wanted to go to sleep. 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:08.280 It was just like, oh my God, I can't do that. 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:11.400 And then I got this almost immediately. I had this 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:14.880 great idea, Well, what if I'm writing about a cartoonist 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:18.520 named Alison Bechtel who's trying to write a memoir about 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:21.960 money and just constantly getting distracted by other things. And 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:23.440 so that's what I ended up doing, and it was 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:27.080 much more fun. And one of the directions that it 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:30.840 went off in was my friends in this new book, 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:33.880 my friends who lived down the hill for me in 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:36.800 Vermont are actually some of the old Dikes to watch 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:41.080 out for characters Oh cool, Lois and Ginger and Sparrow 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:44.720 who used to live together in this group house one 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:46.960 hundred years ago and they're still living there and they're 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:49.920 still now, but now they're in their sixties. And it 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:53.760 was really fun to rediscover those people and to start 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:55.720 writing about them again. And I just felt like, oh 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:59.040 my god, I missed you guys. So it's about It's 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:01.560 kind of about me and my real life with my 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:05.040 partner Holly, even though it's also filled with all kinds 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:09.960 of purely fictional scenarios like in the book, Holly and 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:13.640 I live on a pygmy goat sanctuary, which in real 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:17.200 life we do not do. But I just let myself 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:19.000 do whatever I wanted and it was so fun. 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:22.200 Yeah, So I kept as I was reading it, I 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:25.520 was like, Oh, this is like Alison Buchdel Avengers Endgame. 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.760 It's all of your world's like colliding in this super 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:29.240 cool way. 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:33.360 I don't know that reference, but yes, that's exactly what 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:34.120 I'm going for. 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:38.160 Yeah, because how long had it been since you had 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:40.800 worked with the Dykes to watch up for characters? 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:43.640 A really long time. I wrote my last Dyke's episode 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:46.400 in two thousand and eight, so I can't do that 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:48.000 math anymore. A long time. 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:51.760 Ago, almost twenty years, seventeen years something. 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:54.520 It was so cool. Yeah, we're both big fans of 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:57.480 the original comics, so it was really cool kind of 0:08:58.080 --> 0:08:59.920 catching up with the character. 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:01.760 It was really nice. Definitely. 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:06.000 Yeah, we're in the process of writing this book. How 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.200 long did it take to write? And Yeah, A lot 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:10.560 of what you're talking about in the book has to 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:13.800 do with I mean, it takes place during the pandemic era, 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:16.839 I think mostly in twenty twenty two. How much were 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:20.880 you pulling from your feelings and anxieties of that time? 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:25.440 A lot? I mean that was the saving grace of it, Like, 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:29.880 you know, everything is just so fucking crazy. Yeah, life 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:34.560 is insane, and it was an outlet for that, and 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:37.360 you know, like a constructive outlet to take all my 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:41.720 anxieties and fears and put them into these characters and 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:44.839 you know, keep them somewhat at arm's length, but also 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:47.840 just to process it all. So I was living through 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:49.880 the news. This is something I missed from the old 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:51.920 days with the comic strip, was it was a way 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:55.440 to respond and figure out what was happening in the 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:59.360 world as it unspooled, because the comic strip was not 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:03.000 just about the carearacter's lives but about the news. So 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:04.840 this was a way to kind of get back to 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:09.880 that modality to you know, keeping track of what like this, 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:12.560 the story was happening in real time. You know, certain 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:15.839 things happen in the news, the characters would respond to them, 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:19.840 and yeah, it happens like between twenty twenty two and 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:22.920 twenty twenty four. I finished it just before the election, 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:25.360 so I had to I didn't know what was going 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:27.000 to happen, so I had to sort of leave things 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:31.480 somewhat open. Oh God, I can't even think about it. 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:35.080 Are we all just having some kind of collective bad dream? 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:35.920 Could that be? 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:36.840 I hope? 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:42.040 So that being the best case scenario is scary, I mean, 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:44.640 but there's so much of the anxiety is that you're 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.320 having that we talk about on the show all the 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:50.880 time now of like trying to make art and connect 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.840 with people during a time where it feels like you 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.720 have to sort of dissociate in order to even try 0:10:56.760 --> 0:10:59.760 to do that, and it's impossible to do without ending 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:03.720 on I mean, like we work for iHeartRadio. That's probably 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:09.920 not good to all of these like you know, constant compromises. 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:11.760 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:15.679 Alison is definitely struggling with those kind of choices in 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:18.040 the book and those decisions, Like it starts with her 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:22.960 getting a very high offer to have her book published 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:29.000 by megalipub, this big evil empire publishing company that you know, 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:33.120 she accepts their offer, but then she's tortured by it. 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:38.480 Just the challenge of creating, of doing anything constructive and 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:42.160 creative in this atmosphere. That's also kind of what the 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:45.000 book is about. And Alison in the book is just 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:50.280 like can't concentrate on anything. She's so upset about the news. 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:53.520 She's flitting from one project to another, which is very 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:57.040 much like my actual creative process. 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:01.760 Same. Yeah, to the point where I never get anything done. 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:05.360 But I also love an aspect of the book is 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:11.520 commentary on the state of Hollywood, basically because they're not 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:13.960 to you know, I'm going to try to avoid spoilers, 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:17.240 but there's a part where the Alison character goes to 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:22.040 La and pitches a show and also visits the set 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:27.960 of a different show. And the way that the creator 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:33.600 of this show has adapted your work or your character's work, 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:37.560 and just the hollywoodification of it all. It's all. It's very, 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:38.199 very funny. 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:42.200 And the detail, one of my favorite details or jokes 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:47.840 in the book is Alison googling how expensive someone's stove is, 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:52.160 because I've definitely done that where I was like, I 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:54.319 don't like that person. Let me find out how much 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.079 there's stove costs. And the answer you never like to 0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:57.400 hear it. 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:00.800 Yeah, that's Allison is having a zoom session with the 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:05.960 showrunner of the television show that's based on a memoir 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:09.720 that Allison wrote in her youth. It's kind of it's 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:12.679 a way to play with my book fun Home that 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:15.360 got turned into a Broadway musical, and in this book, 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:20.199 Allison's has written a memoir about her father, the taxidermist, 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:25.199 death and Taxidermy. It gets turned into a Prestige TV 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:26.839 series and this woman. 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:29.880 Sadilla cast in the Fake Oh yeah. 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:35.280 It's starring Benedette Cumberbatch and Sarah Paulson and Aubrey Plaza 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:38.640 as Alison. It's funny. I was talking to someone the 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:40.840 other day doing an interview and they were like, I 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:43.120 googled that show, but I couldn't find anything. 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:48.520 Thought it was real. I'm tue it would be. I mean, 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:52.800 I know that the Alison character is a little resentful 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:58.040 of different creative embellishments that are made, but might have 0:13:58.040 --> 0:13:58.720 been a fun show. 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:02.160 It does sound fun. Yeah, Sadilla is just kicking all 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:05.320 kinds of liberties with Alison's manuscript, and she has this 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:08.680 very fancy wolf stove with red knobs that Alison is 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:10.960 mesmerized by when they have their Zoom meetings. 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:14.800 That was another I mean, that was another thing that 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:18.000 I don't know. It's just like we've been again, we've 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:19.600 been fans of your work for so long, and seeing 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.440 all of these themes and seeing you sort of interface 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:24.920 with work you've done in the past in this book, 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:29.320 especially with the adaptation, I'm so curious, Like, yeah, reflecting 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:31.680 on I mean, I guess we kind of want to 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:34.240 talk about this with the Bechdel Test as well, you know, 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:37.520 creating this tremendously successful work and fun home and then 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:40.600 having it adapted, and then having this version of yourself 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:45.600 in the world that is kind of outside of your control. Yeah, 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:48.400 I mean in your own life. How do you manage that? 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:53.440 It's weird and crazy? And I managed it in this 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.240 case by like writing about it and playing with it 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:59.280 in this book form. It was really fun to get 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:03.240 to just sort of free associate about I don't know, 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:06.520 I feel very lucky that Phone Home turned out as well, 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:10.160 that the musical that was made from Phone Home was 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:12.680 so good, but it could have gone the other way, 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:14.360 and so this was kind of a way of exploring 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:15.840 that possibility. 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:20.640 Yeah, for sure. Well, I mean, speaking of the Bechdel test, 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:26.120 I ever heard of it? We we always say in 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:28.440 the show, like at the beginning of every episode, like 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:31.800 we use this as a jumping off point, and you know, 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:34.520 it's it's to initiate larger conversations. But we're just we're 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:37.200 you know, we're curious about a lot of different things. 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:41.480 As far as I guess, like, when did you first 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:45.640 realize that the Bechdel test that people were using and 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:50.480 applying to media as a metric was becoming like a thing. 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:55.000 It was sometime in the early two thousands. I should 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:58.240 probably try and like, well, I have tried to write 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:01.320 about it somewhere, like on my blogger or something, my blog. 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:07.120 Oh my god, I just can't keep up. 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:11.080 Like substocks are basically blogs, They just go by a 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:12.800 vigilian substacks. 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:15.120 I mean, how many substacks do you guys subscribe to? 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:15.160 You? 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:17.040 How are you supposed to keep up with all these people? 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:18.840 Isn't that what newspapers were used to be for? 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:23.280 Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I feel that I have most of 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:25.640 my inboxes on red substacks. 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:28.440 Yeah. I don't know what to do with them anyhow. Wait, 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:31.520 we're digressing. What were we? Oh? Oh the Bechdel Test. 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:33.160 Like yeah, it was like in the early two thousands. 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:36.520 I was like, what, that's crazy. Like I had written 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:40.160 this comic strip, the comic strip from which it got 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:44.840 adapted in nineteen eighty five, like a thousand years ago, 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:48.000 and I didn't really think much about it after that, 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:50.880 you know, I wrote this cartoon. It was the kind 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:54.680 of humor me and my lesbian feminist pals would bandy 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:58.280 about in those days, something that we never thought anyone 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:01.560 outside of that little sub culture would get and so 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:03.920 it was very surprising and gratifying to me to see 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:08.719 it entering this larger realm. I think it was feminist 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:12.240 film students who somehow stumbled on it and felt like 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:16.120 it expressed a useful concept and just started circulating it. 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:19.440 But at first I was a little like, I didn't 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:22.480 mean for it to be real. Way, this is my name? 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:25.400 What are you doing? Right? I mean I never objected 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:28.240 because it was always fine, but it was weird. 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:29.720 I can only imagine. 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:32.920 And some people, you know, mostly people think I made 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:35.160 this declaration, which I never did. 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:38.320 Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, just how I kind 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:42.520 of forget how. Yeah, there's two full decades between the 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:46.240 strip and then it becoming this like very commonly cited 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:49.400 media test. That's really bizarre. 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:53.960 Well, I learned about something called Stigler's law of eponymy 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:59.160 oooh okay, same more, anything that has gotten named after 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:04.520 a person that's eponymous is never named after the actual 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:08.000 person who invented it, but someone sort of obliquely related 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:13.840 to it, like Murphy's Law was not really invented by Murphy, 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:17.040 and in fact, Stiegler's law of economy was not invented 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:18.560 by Stiegler but someone. 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:20.359 Adjacent. 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:25.520 Well, speaking of the name of the test every so often, 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:28.320 really it is technically called the Bechdel Wallace test. We 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:31.800 try every so often to remind people of the original 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:33.560 context of the town. 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:34.399 That's very good of you. 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:38.520 We try our best, thank you, But we'd be curious 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:41.600 just to share with our listeners why it's called the 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:44.760 Bechdel Wallace test. And a little more about Liz Wallace. 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:48.399 I feel quite sheepish about this because I honestly have 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:51.720 not been in touch with Liz Wallace since nineteen eighty five. 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:54.480 She was someone in my karate class. 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:56.280 What that's so cool? 0:18:56.520 --> 0:19:00.040 Yeah, I did karate and she was talking about this 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:02.000 one day as we were all changing our clothes, and 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:04.520 I just worked it into my comic stare. I mean 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:06.240 at the time I told her I was doing it, 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:08.879 and she knew that. But in this later iteration, now 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:11.159 that it's become a thing, I've I have had no 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:12.919 contact with her. I don't even know how to find her. 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:14.480 And how can you find someone with a name like that, 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:15.399 It's like very common. 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:19.960 Maybe she's still haunting the karate studio to this day. 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:20.439 We don't know. 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:21.320 Maybe she is. 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:26.120 That's so cool. But like you said, Allison, I think 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:29.800 that people think that you set out to create this 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:34.040 test that would be used with like those intentions. 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:36.080 In like a very academic way, which. 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:39.120 People have done since then because they were inspired by 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:39.520 your test. 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:41.960 If I had done that, it wouldn't have caught on. 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:42.959 That's the beauty of it. 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:46.320 Yeah, you know, it just has to happen organically. Yes, 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:50.439 But as Jamie was alluding to the origins of the 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:53.840 test that appear in Dykes to Watch Out For, the 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:59.359 implication in the scene is characters discussing basically having to 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:03.399 ship two women together in movies that they watch, because 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:07.680 representation of lesbians in mainstream movies was like virtually non 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:10.439 existent back then. But wait a. 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:12.960 Second, what is this word ship? I am like an 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:15.359 old person. I have no idea what you're talking about. 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:16.160 That's what we're here for. 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:18.280 Shivving is Jamie, take it away? 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:24.200 Oh gosh, now I'm gonna whiff it. Shipping is basically 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:27.080 fan fiction in your head of like, oh, these I'm 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:31.800 just imagining these two characters together because mainstream movies are 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:36.120 so aggressively heteronormative that they would never put a queer 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:37.679 couple on screen. So I'm trying to think of, like, 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:41.320 what is a classic example, Caitlin of Oh, it happens 0:20:41.320 --> 0:20:42.479 in TV all the time. 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:46.120 Yeah, what's it called shipping? Like what does that imply. 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:50.840 That I wish I do? I'm not quite online enough 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:51.320 to know. 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:54.800 Me either, And I'm gonna take a guess and it 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:57.440 might be so wrong, but I wonder if ship comes 0:20:57.440 --> 0:21:00.800 from like relationship and they're hoping that these two characters 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.879 enter a relationship that I don't know. Actually I maybe 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:04.520 made that up. 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:05.280 Let's go with that. 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:10.359 Yeah, But all this to say, the test has queer 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:13.720 roots that are often erased in this sort of like 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:19.280 more mainstream application of the Bechdel Test. And curious about 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:23.440 your thoughts on that, and also we're curious about how 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:27.680 you feel representation of queer characters in media has evolved 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:32.040 since the test first appears in Dick's To Watch Out 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:35.520 For in the eighties, because there has been some progress 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:40.080 since then where people don't have to ship, you know, 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:43.879