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Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: The questions asked if movies have.

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Speaker 3: Women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 3: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and

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Speaker 3: best start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. It's not April Fools. Maybe

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Speaker 2: you looked at the title of this episode and thought, no, there's.

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Speaker 4: No way that's real. But well, guess what.

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Speaker 2: Look at the month. It's not April, it's real.

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Speaker 4: It's May. And when we were joking on the April

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Speaker 4: Fool's episode on Snakes on a Plane where we were like,

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Speaker 4: it's been all leading up to this, that actually applies

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Speaker 4: to today's episode.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of true. I mean, I cannot believe that

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Speaker 2: this happened. We recorded this interview yesterday and I can't

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Speaker 2: believe it. If this is your first episode of the

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Speaker 2: Bechdel Cast and you're coming here because of our guest,

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Speaker 2: my name's Jamie.

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Speaker 4: Loft It, my name is Caitlin Durante.

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Speaker 2: And this is our podcast where we talk about in

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Speaker 2: a normal episode. This is a very special episode. It

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Speaker 2: is just an interview, and not just an interview. It

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Speaker 2: is the interview, but we're not talking about a movie.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about living, laughing, loving with you know, she

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Speaker 2: who shall be named in just a moment. Every week

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Speaker 2: for almost nine years now, we have talked about your

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Speaker 2: favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens, using the and

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Speaker 2: here's where it gets interesting Bechdel test as a jumping off,

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Speaker 2: like for a discussion. And normally we would tell you

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Speaker 2: and the Bechdel test is this thing, and we tell

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Speaker 2: and someone invented it, and she's our guest today we've

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Speaker 2: been using her name. I truly have been I've like,

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Speaker 2: not quite lostly, but I've for years wondered, is she

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Speaker 2: mad at us? My favorite looping thought to have this

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Speaker 2: person I've never met who doesn't know I exist, are

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Speaker 2: they at him? And we can answer definitively, it does.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't seem it doesn't seem like it. It doesn't

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Speaker 2: seem like we can't be sure. Maybe she was just

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Speaker 2: being nice, but it doesn't seem like it. We're so

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Speaker 2: thrilled to have Alison Bechdel on the show today. We

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Speaker 2: are talking about a couple of things. We're talking obviously

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Speaker 2: about the Bechdel Test, but we are also talking about

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Speaker 2: her new book Spent, which we've both gotten a chance

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Speaker 2: to read. It will be out right around the time

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Speaker 2: you're hearing this episode, and it's terrific. So yeah, I

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Speaker 2: guess what I wanted to say before we start is that,

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Speaker 2: you know, if you're listening to this, I'm assuming you're

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Speaker 2: familiar with the Bechdel Test, but if you're not familiar

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Speaker 2: with the work of Alison Bechdel, that really is where

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Speaker 2: the good shit is. And the more that we like

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Speaker 2: revisit her work because, as we've discussed, the Bechdel Test

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Speaker 2: was a one off joke she made in the eighties

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Speaker 2: that has become a serious media metric. But so much

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Speaker 2: of what we actually talk about on this show, intersectional

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Speaker 2: feminist issues and just trying to survive in a capitalist hellscape.

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Speaker 2: That is literally what she's been writing about for forty

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Speaker 2: years in a very funny, thoughtful way. And so you know,

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Speaker 2: we'll have all the links in the description to her work,

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Speaker 2: but you know, let this be a reminder if you

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Speaker 2: haven't picked up in Alison Bechdel book, You simply must,

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Speaker 2: You simply must.

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Speaker 4: You simply must. And also she is touring with her

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Speaker 4: I think the tour has already kicked off by the

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Speaker 4: time you are hearing this episode, but she's on a

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Speaker 4: book tour in possibly a city near you, and so

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Speaker 4: check out her website her Instagram for tour dates and

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Speaker 4: be sure to go out and support Are now best

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Speaker 4: friend Alison Bechtel URBFF and I think, without much further ado,

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Speaker 4: here's our interview with our best friend, Alison Bechdel Enjoycast.

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Speaker 4: I'm going to say the very cliche thing that our

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Speaker 4: guest today needs no introduction, but it's true, and we're

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Speaker 4: going to introduce her anyway. She is an author and cartoonist.

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Speaker 4: Her works include Dikes to Watch Out For, Are You

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Speaker 4: My Mother? Fun Home, and her new comic novel Spent,

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Speaker 4: which everyone should buy right now. And our podcast is

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Speaker 4: named after her. It's Alison Bechdel, Hello and well welcome.

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Speaker 1: Hi Caitlin, Hi Jamie. I'm very happy to be here.

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Speaker 4: Oh We're so happy to have you. It's a dream

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Speaker 4: come true.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for naming your podcast after the Bechdel Test.

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Speaker 1: That's crazy.

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Speaker 4: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for we were talking about this off Mike. Thank

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Speaker 2: you for not being mad at us about it. This

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Speaker 2: is like, this is so surreal. We're so excited to

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Speaker 2: have you.

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Speaker 1: I was just listening to some episodes. I I listened

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Speaker 1: to the Groundhog Day episode because that's one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite movies. Though of course it doesn't pass.

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Speaker 4: The test, and that's one of our very old episodes,

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Speaker 4: which we are I'm sure humiliated by in the year

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: But well, Caitlin, I learned that you are also a

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Speaker 1: Pennsylvanian like me.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, I'm originally from rural western Pennsylvania and now

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Speaker 4: my family lives around the State College area.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, you were just in State College? I was, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you went to penn State.

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Speaker 4: I did. I been doing a little research for my

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Speaker 4: first degree, which I would never mention, but but yeah,

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Speaker 4: so we have Pennsylvania roots.

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Speaker 1: Did you have fun in State College on this recent visit.

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Speaker 4: I did. I did a comedy show there at a

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Speaker 4: theater called the Blue Brick Theater. Everyone checked that out

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Speaker 4: if you're ever in the State College area. But yeah,

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Speaker 4: I did a stand up show and it was a

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Speaker 4: lot of fun.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. But anyway, again, thank you so much for being here.

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Speaker 4: We want to start by just chatting a bit about

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Speaker 4: your new book, Book Spent, So just to start us off,

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Speaker 4: tell us a little bit about it, give us an overview,

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Speaker 4: and we'll go from there.

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Speaker 1: Spent is a subtitle is a comic novel, because of

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Speaker 1: course it's told in comics, and it's also hopefully funny.

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Speaker 4: It can confirm.

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Speaker 1: It's a kind of funny mashup of my memoirs that

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Speaker 1: I've written about me and my life and my comic

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Speaker 1: strip Likes to Watch out for from back in the

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Speaker 1: olden days in the eighties and nineties and early aughts,

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Speaker 1: where I wrote about a whole little community of friends.

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Speaker 1: In this new book, this new book, Spent, it's funny.

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Speaker 1: It was. My plan was that it was just going

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Speaker 1: to be another memoir. It was going to be like

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Speaker 1: fun Home or Are You My Mother? This book where

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Speaker 1: I looked at my own life, in this case, looked

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Speaker 1: at my own life, my financial life, and my relationship

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Speaker 1: to money and privilege and living in capitalism and everything.

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Speaker 1: But when I sat down to start working on that,

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Speaker 1: I just felt like I wanted to go to sleep.

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Speaker 1: It was just like, oh my God, I can't do that.

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Speaker 1: And then I got this almost immediately. I had this

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Speaker 1: great idea, Well, what if I'm writing about a cartoonist

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Speaker 1: named Alison Bechtel who's trying to write a memoir about

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Speaker 1: money and just constantly getting distracted by other things. And

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Speaker 1: so that's what I ended up doing, and it was

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Speaker 1: much more fun. And one of the directions that it

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Speaker 1: went off in was my friends in this new book,

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Speaker 1: my friends who lived down the hill for me in

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Speaker 1: Vermont are actually some of the old Dikes to watch

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Speaker 1: out for characters Oh cool, Lois and Ginger and Sparrow

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Speaker 1: who used to live together in this group house one

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Speaker 1: hundred years ago and they're still living there and they're

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Speaker 1: still now, but now they're in their sixties. And it

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Speaker 1: was really fun to rediscover those people and to start

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Speaker 1: writing about them again. And I just felt like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, I missed you guys. So it's about It's

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Speaker 1: kind of about me and my real life with my

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Speaker 1: partner Holly, even though it's also filled with all kinds

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Speaker 1: of purely fictional scenarios like in the book, Holly and

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Speaker 1: I live on a pygmy goat sanctuary, which in real

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Speaker 1: life we do not do. But I just let myself

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Speaker 1: do whatever I wanted and it was so fun.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I kept as I was reading it, I

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Speaker 2: was like, Oh, this is like Alison Buchdel Avengers Endgame.

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Speaker 2: It's all of your world's like colliding in this super

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Speaker 2: cool way.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that reference, but yes, that's exactly what

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Speaker 1: I'm going for.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because how long had it been since you had

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Speaker 2: worked with the Dykes to watch up for characters?

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Speaker 1: A really long time. I wrote my last Dyke's episode

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight, so I can't do that

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Speaker 1: math anymore. A long time.

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Speaker 4: Ago, almost twenty years, seventeen years something.

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Speaker 2: It was so cool. Yeah, we're both big fans of

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Speaker 2: the original comics, so it was really cool kind of

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Speaker 2: catching up with the character.

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Speaker 4: It was really nice. Definitely.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're in the process of writing this book. How

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Speaker 2: long did it take to write? And Yeah, A lot

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Speaker 2: of what you're talking about in the book has to

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Speaker 2: do with I mean, it takes place during the pandemic era,

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Speaker 2: I think mostly in twenty twenty two. How much were

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Speaker 2: you pulling from your feelings and anxieties of that time?

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Speaker 1: A lot? I mean that was the saving grace of it, Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, everything is just so fucking crazy. Yeah, life

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Speaker 1: is insane, and it was an outlet for that, and

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Speaker 1: you know, like a constructive outlet to take all my

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Speaker 1: anxieties and fears and put them into these characters and

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Speaker 1: you know, keep them somewhat at arm's length, but also

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Speaker 1: just to process it all. So I was living through

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Speaker 1: the news. This is something I missed from the old

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Speaker 1: days with the comic strip, was it was a way

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Speaker 1: to respond and figure out what was happening in the

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Speaker 1: world as it unspooled, because the comic strip was not

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Speaker 1: just about the carearacter's lives but about the news. So

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Speaker 1: this was a way to kind of get back to

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Speaker 1: that modality to you know, keeping track of what like this,

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Speaker 1: the story was happening in real time. You know, certain

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Speaker 1: things happen in the news, the characters would respond to them,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, it happens like between twenty twenty two and

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. I finished it just before the election,

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Speaker 1: so I had to I didn't know what was going

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Speaker 1: to happen, so I had to sort of leave things

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Speaker 1: somewhat open. Oh God, I can't even think about it.

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Speaker 1: Are we all just having some kind of collective bad dream?

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Speaker 1: Could that be?

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Speaker 4: I hope?

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Speaker 2: So that being the best case scenario is scary, I mean,

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Speaker 2: but there's so much of the anxiety is that you're

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Speaker 2: having that we talk about on the show all the

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Speaker 2: time now of like trying to make art and connect

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Speaker 2: with people during a time where it feels like you

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Speaker 2: have to sort of dissociate in order to even try

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Speaker 2: to do that, and it's impossible to do without ending

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Speaker 2: on I mean, like we work for iHeartRadio. That's probably

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Speaker 2: not good to all of these like you know, constant compromises.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Alison is definitely struggling with those kind of choices in

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Speaker 1: the book and those decisions, Like it starts with her

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Speaker 1: getting a very high offer to have her book published

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Speaker 1: by megalipub, this big evil empire publishing company that you know,

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Speaker 1: she accepts their offer, but then she's tortured by it.

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Speaker 1: Just the challenge of creating, of doing anything constructive and

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Speaker 1: creative in this atmosphere. That's also kind of what the

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Speaker 1: book is about. And Alison in the book is just

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Speaker 1: like can't concentrate on anything. She's so upset about the news.

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Speaker 1: She's flitting from one project to another, which is very

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Speaker 1: much like my actual creative process.

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Speaker 4: Same. Yeah, to the point where I never get anything done.

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Speaker 4: But I also love an aspect of the book is

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Speaker 4: commentary on the state of Hollywood, basically because they're not

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Speaker 4: to you know, I'm going to try to avoid spoilers,

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Speaker 4: but there's a part where the Alison character goes to

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Speaker 4: La and pitches a show and also visits the set

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Speaker 4: of a different show. And the way that the creator

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Speaker 4: of this show has adapted your work or your character's work,

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Speaker 4: and just the hollywoodification of it all. It's all. It's very,

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Speaker 4: very funny.

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Speaker 2: And the detail, one of my favorite details or jokes

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Speaker 2: in the book is Alison googling how expensive someone's stove is,

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Speaker 2: because I've definitely done that where I was like, I

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Speaker 2: don't like that person. Let me find out how much

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Speaker 2: there's stove costs. And the answer you never like to

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Speaker 2: hear it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's Allison is having a zoom session with the

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Speaker 1: showrunner of the television show that's based on a memoir

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Speaker 1: that Allison wrote in her youth. It's kind of it's

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Speaker 1: a way to play with my book fun Home that

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Speaker 1: got turned into a Broadway musical, and in this book,

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Speaker 1: Allison's has written a memoir about her father, the taxidermist,

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Speaker 1: death and Taxidermy. It gets turned into a Prestige TV

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Speaker 1: series and this woman.

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Speaker 2: Sadilla cast in the Fake Oh yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's starring Benedette Cumberbatch and Sarah Paulson and Aubrey Plaza

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Speaker 1: as Alison. It's funny. I was talking to someone the

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Speaker 1: other day doing an interview and they were like, I

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Speaker 1: googled that show, but I couldn't find anything.

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Speaker 4: Thought it was real. I'm tue it would be. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I know that the Alison character is a little resentful

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Speaker 4: of different creative embellishments that are made, but might have

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Speaker 4: been a fun show.

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Speaker 1: It does sound fun. Yeah, Sadilla is just kicking all

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Speaker 1: kinds of liberties with Alison's manuscript, and she has this

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Speaker 1: very fancy wolf stove with red knobs that Alison is

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Speaker 1: mesmerized by when they have their Zoom meetings.

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Speaker 2: That was another I mean, that was another thing that

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Speaker 2: I don't know. It's just like we've been again, we've

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Speaker 2: been fans of your work for so long, and seeing

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Speaker 2: all of these themes and seeing you sort of interface

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Speaker 2: with work you've done in the past in this book,

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Speaker 2: especially with the adaptation, I'm so curious, Like, yeah, reflecting

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Speaker 2: on I mean, I guess we kind of want to

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Speaker 2: talk about this with the Bechdel Test as well, you know,

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Speaker 2: creating this tremendously successful work and fun home and then

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Speaker 2: having it adapted, and then having this version of yourself

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Speaker 2: in the world that is kind of outside of your control. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean in your own life. How do you manage that?

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Speaker 1: It's weird and crazy? And I managed it in this

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Speaker 1: case by like writing about it and playing with it

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Speaker 1: in this book form. It was really fun to get

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Speaker 1: to just sort of free associate about I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I feel very lucky that Phone Home turned out as well,

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Speaker 1: that the musical that was made from Phone Home was

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Speaker 1: so good, but it could have gone the other way,

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Speaker 1: and so this was kind of a way of exploring

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Speaker 1: that possibility.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure. Well, I mean, speaking of the Bechdel test,

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Speaker 4: I ever heard of it? We we always say in

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Speaker 4: the show, like at the beginning of every episode, like

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Speaker 4: we use this as a jumping off point, and you know,

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Speaker 4: it's it's to initiate larger conversations. But we're just we're

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Speaker 4: you know, we're curious about a lot of different things.

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Speaker 4: As far as I guess, like, when did you first

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Speaker 4: realize that the Bechdel test that people were using and

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Speaker 4: applying to media as a metric was becoming like a thing.

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Speaker 1: It was sometime in the early two thousands. I should

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Speaker 1: probably try and like, well, I have tried to write

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Speaker 1: about it somewhere, like on my blogger or something, my blog.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, I just can't keep up.

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Speaker 2: Like substocks are basically blogs, They just go by a

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Speaker 2: vigilian substacks.

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Speaker 1: I mean, how many substacks do you guys subscribe to?

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Speaker 3: You?

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Speaker 1: How are you supposed to keep up with all these people?

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Speaker 1: Isn't that what newspapers were used to be for?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I feel that I have most of

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Speaker 2: my inboxes on red substacks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know what to do with them anyhow. Wait,

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Speaker 1: we're digressing. What were we? Oh? Oh the Bechdel Test.

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Speaker 1: Like yeah, it was like in the early two thousands.

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Speaker 1: I was like, what, that's crazy. Like I had written

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Speaker 1: this comic strip, the comic strip from which it got

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Speaker 1: adapted in nineteen eighty five, like a thousand years ago,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't really think much about it after that,

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Speaker 1: you know, I wrote this cartoon. It was the kind

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Speaker 1: of humor me and my lesbian feminist pals would bandy

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Speaker 1: about in those days, something that we never thought anyone

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Speaker 1: outside of that little sub culture would get and so

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Speaker 1: it was very surprising and gratifying to me to see

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Speaker 1: it entering this larger realm. I think it was feminist

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Speaker 1: film students who somehow stumbled on it and felt like

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Speaker 1: it expressed a useful concept and just started circulating it.

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Speaker 1: But at first I was a little like, I didn't

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Speaker 1: mean for it to be real. Way, this is my name?

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Speaker 1: What are you doing? Right? I mean I never objected

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Speaker 1: because it was always fine, but it was weird.

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Speaker 4: I can only imagine.

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Speaker 1: And some people, you know, mostly people think I made

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Speaker 1: this declaration, which I never did.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, just how I kind

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Speaker 2: of forget how. Yeah, there's two full decades between the

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Speaker 2: strip and then it becoming this like very commonly cited

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Speaker 2: media test. That's really bizarre.

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Speaker 1: Well, I learned about something called Stigler's law of eponymy

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Speaker 1: oooh okay, same more, anything that has gotten named after

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Speaker 1: a person that's eponymous is never named after the actual

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Speaker 1: person who invented it, but someone sort of obliquely related

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Speaker 1: to it, like Murphy's Law was not really invented by Murphy,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, Stiegler's law of economy was not invented

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Speaker 1: by Stiegler but someone.

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Speaker 4: Adjacent.

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Speaker 2: Well, speaking of the name of the test every so often,

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Speaker 2: really it is technically called the Bechdel Wallace test. We

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Speaker 2: try every so often to remind people of the original

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Speaker 2: context of the town.

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Speaker 1: That's very good of you.

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Speaker 2: We try our best, thank you, But we'd be curious

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Speaker 2: just to share with our listeners why it's called the

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Speaker 2: Bechdel Wallace test. And a little more about Liz Wallace.

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Speaker 1: I feel quite sheepish about this because I honestly have

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Speaker 1: not been in touch with Liz Wallace since nineteen eighty five.

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Speaker 1: She was someone in my karate class.

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Speaker 2: What that's so cool?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I did karate and she was talking about this

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Speaker 1: one day as we were all changing our clothes, and

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Speaker 1: I just worked it into my comic stare. I mean

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Speaker 1: at the time I told her I was doing it,

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Speaker 1: and she knew that. But in this later iteration, now

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Speaker 1: that it's become a thing, I've I have had no

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Speaker 1: contact with her. I don't even know how to find her.

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Speaker 1: And how can you find someone with a name like that,

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Speaker 1: It's like very common.

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Speaker 2: Maybe she's still haunting the karate studio to this day.

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Speaker 4: We don't know.

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Speaker 1: Maybe she is.

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Speaker 4: That's so cool. But like you said, Allison, I think

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Speaker 4: that people think that you set out to create this

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Speaker 4: test that would be used with like those intentions.

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Speaker 2: In like a very academic way, which.

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Speaker 4: People have done since then because they were inspired by

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Speaker 4: your test.

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Speaker 1: If I had done that, it wouldn't have caught on.

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Speaker 1: That's the beauty of it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, it just has to happen organically. Yes,

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Speaker 4: But as Jamie was alluding to the origins of the

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Speaker 4: test that appear in Dykes to Watch Out For, the

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Speaker 4: implication in the scene is characters discussing basically having to

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Speaker 4: ship two women together in movies that they watch, because

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Speaker 4: representation of lesbians in mainstream movies was like virtually non

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Speaker 4: existent back then. But wait a.

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Speaker 1: Second, what is this word ship? I am like an

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Speaker 1: old person. I have no idea what you're talking about.

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Speaker 2: That's what we're here for.

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Speaker 4: Shivving is Jamie, take it away?

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Speaker 2: Oh gosh, now I'm gonna whiff it. Shipping is basically

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Speaker 2: fan fiction in your head of like, oh, these I'm

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Speaker 2: just imagining these two characters together because mainstream movies are

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Speaker 2: so aggressively heteronormative that they would never put a queer

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Speaker 2: couple on screen. So I'm trying to think of, like,

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Speaker 2: what is a classic example, Caitlin of Oh, it happens

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Speaker 2: in TV all the time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what's it called shipping? Like what does that imply.

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Speaker 2: That I wish I do? I'm not quite online enough

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Speaker 2: to know.

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Speaker 4: Me either, And I'm gonna take a guess and it

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Speaker 4: might be so wrong, but I wonder if ship comes

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Speaker 4: from like relationship and they're hoping that these two characters

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Speaker 4: enter a relationship that I don't know. Actually I maybe

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Speaker 4: made that up.

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Speaker 2: Let's go with that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, But all this to say, the test has queer

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Speaker 4: roots that are often erased in this sort of like

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Speaker 4: more mainstream application of the Bechdel Test. And curious about

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Speaker 4: your thoughts on that, and also we're curious about how

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Speaker 4: you feel representation of queer characters in media has evolved

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Speaker 4: since the test first appears in Dick's To Watch Out

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Speaker 4: For in the eighties, because there has been some progress

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Speaker 4: since then where people don't have to ship, you know,

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Speaker 4: two women together for example, because that does happen on

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Speaker 4: screen now. So yeah, that's on all that.

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Speaker 1: Right, Well, yeah, there's been a huge amount of progress.

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Speaker 1: I'll put that in quotes, because yeah, there's tons of

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Speaker 1: representation now, but not all of it is great, you

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Speaker 1: know for sure. And also I just at a certain point,

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Speaker 1: I just started feeling like, man, I missed the battle

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Speaker 1: days when like we were in the shadows and no

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Speaker 1: one knew what we were up to and like we

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Speaker 1: were just free, you know, it didn't have to be

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Speaker 1: representing or performing. I don't really want to go back

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Speaker 1: to that those days, although I don't really have much

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Speaker 1: say in it since that's whoever're all headed on a

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Speaker 1: grease pole. But yeah, things improved somewhat.

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Speaker 4: Do you have any favorite movies in particular?

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Speaker 1: Well, here's the thing. I am not like a really

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Speaker 1: a movie person, so I get really embarrassed when people

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Speaker 1: ask me, like, what films passed the Bechdel Test? I

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Speaker 1: don't fucking know.

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Speaker 4: And really do the math yourself. Yeah, that's our job.

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Speaker 4: That's literally our job.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, no, I'm so glad you guys are on it.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, I always laugh because literally Groundhog Day

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Speaker 1: is one of my favorite movies of all time and

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Speaker 1: it totally doesn't pass the test. And I was just

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Speaker 1: listening to your episode on it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean so many of our favorite movies. That's

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Speaker 2: like sort of what, I don't know. It's interesting like

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Speaker 2: having guests on the show over the years and having

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Speaker 2: the discussion of like it's okay, like your favorite movie

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Speaker 2: is your favorite movie. We're not here to yell at

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Speaker 2: you about it.

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Speaker 1: And also sometimes you just want to check out. I

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Speaker 1: don't want to watch something totally relevant to my life

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Speaker 1: when I'm trying to relax. That would just not be soothing.

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00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love escapist media.

437
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we to continue the spiral of weirdness. We

438
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 2: call that taking off our Bechdel goggles, when we just

439
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 2: watch a movie and don't think about Yes, yeah.

440
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 1: It was actually you know, that strip came out of

441
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 1: the weird cognitive dissonance that I started to experience as

442
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: a young woman when I was getting woke, when I

443
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 1: was suddenly realizing, oh my god, the world is like

444
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 1: this huge power play and this half is oppressing this half.

445
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 1: I realized that I couldn't just watch a movie and

446
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,959
Speaker 1: enjoy it, that everything was like really racist and oppressive

447
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,719
Speaker 1: and rape and you know, you couldn't just you couldn't

448
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 1: check out and watch a movie. So I understand why

449
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 1: you would want to take off your Bechdel goggles.

450
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 4: I do it every time I go to the movies, and.

451
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 2: You gotta watch Indiana Jones.

452
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 4: Somehow that's there. It must, Yeah, And then I put

453
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 4: them on when we record episodes of our podcast.

454
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 2: So that another question we're curious about. Have you heard

455
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 2: we've over the years learned more about sort of other

456
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 2: media metrics inspired by the Bechdel Test. Have you encountered

457
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,959
Speaker 2: any of these ye over the years?

458
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I don't know if if they have

459
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,479
Speaker 1: names and stuff, but I know there's ones like are

460
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 1: there two people of color in the movie? Do they

461
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,919
Speaker 1: talk to each other about something besides racism or a

462
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 1: white person? But my favorite one is this new climate

463
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 1: one have you heard about that?

464
00:24:58,760 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 2: I don't think so.

465
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:00,640
Speaker 4: Tell us.

466
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 1: It's called the climate reality check, and a movie passes

467
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 1: if in a movie that's set in the present or

468
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 1: remotely around the present, climate change has to be acknowledged

469
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 1: and the main character has to be like cognizant of that,

470
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 1: which I think is awesome for sure. Hacks Hacks is

471
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: a great example of a show that passes that test

472
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: with flying colors, because they're constantly definitely talking about that awesome.

473
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does feel like, there's like it has to

474
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 2: be escapist media to happen now and not feature climate

475
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 2: anxiety to some extent.

476
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's yeah, it's it's just you can't

477
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: not mention it or it's just really bad.

478
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 2: I mean, but you've been writing about it for literally decades.

479
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 2: I mean I was going back and reading some old stuff.

480
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, this is she's been on this.

481
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: Lesbians were on the cutting edge. We knew everything back

482
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: in the day.

483
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 2: Always well, you're talking about about sort of how dicks

484
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 2: to watch out. There was a lot of things you

485
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 2: were writing and as you were, you know, getting woke

486
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 2: in your early twenties and throughout your twenties. Yeah, and now,

487
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 2: I mean there is a huge fan base for you

488
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 2: that are you know, queer people of the next generation

489
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 2: and what is it? What is it like sort of

490
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 2: I guess this is a big question. But having those

491
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 2: that role kind of reversed and watching new generation of

492
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 2: people awakened to these issues that you've been talking about

493
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 2: since eighties.

494
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: I love that young people are still reading my work.

495
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 1: I think that's so cool and it doesn't always happen,

496
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 1: but of course it's for a tragic reason. Which is

497
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: that they're still dealing with the same shit my generation

498
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 1: was dealing with. But I hear from a lot of

499
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: young people that they find it heartening and helpful to

500
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: see these people, you know, trying to do what they're

501
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,159
Speaker 1: trying to do. So I love that. I've recently learned

502
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: something funny, which is that I had this whole bunch

503
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: of unintended readers of my comic strip when I was

504
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: doing it, which was the children of lesbians. I hear

505
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: from so many young or not even so young adults

506
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: these days, like people in their thirties who say, you know,

507
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: and they're just totally straight, regular people who know my

508
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: work intimately because they read it as small children stealing

509
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: it from their mother's shelves.

510
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:24,880
Speaker 4: I love.

511
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: So that's really cool too, that I had no idea

512
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 1: those kids were doing that. You never know who's gonna

513
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: read your stuff.

514
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, you truly never do. I love the characters and

515
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 4: spent Jr. And Badger who are I guess it would

516
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 4: be gen Z. Yeah they're gen Z and they come

517
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 4: to less track of all.

518
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 2: Those gens yeah blurs.

519
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: But I love these kids. God, I love JR. And Badger. Jr.

520
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 1: Is the daughter or the child. They're non binary. Jr.

521
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: Is the daughter of my characters Sparrow and Stuart, and

522
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: back in the day they were just a little kid

523
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: like I think there were five when I last had

524
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: sight of them. So I had to imagine, how is

525
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: j are going to grow up? And what are they

526
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: doing now? And she's there at Oberlin, which is where

527
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 1: I went to college. They're they're in a non binary

528
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 1: asexual polycule with a bunch of people, and they are

529
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 1: especially close with Badger this other friend, and the two

530
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: of them drop out and come home and move into

531
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: Alison's yurt. And it's just my fantasy of wanting to

532
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 1: have children because I never had kids, and I'm always

533
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 1: envious of my friends with children, not really not so

534
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: envious that I'm they're going to wish I haven't done anything, Yeah,

535
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: but it would be like it. It'd be kind of

536
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: cool to have some like grown up kids hanging around.

537
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: So I got to play with that idea. And they

538
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: come live in the yurt and do their podcast.

539
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that way we are, yeah, podcasting from I

540
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 2: guess what we're asking is can we move in?

541
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 4: Can we move into your at your definitely real goat sanctuary.

542
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I definitely don't have a yurt, so you

543
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: just got to like live in my office.

544
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 2: Right, that won't be disruptive at all. I am curious

545
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 2: about the character Sheila. I had a lot of fun

546
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 2: sort of because I had just recently reread Fun Home

547
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 2: and then as I as you know, you're sort of

548
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 2: eased into the some Israel some is not of spent,

549
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,719
Speaker 2: I was like, wait, did I miss a sister? I

550
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 2: did not miss a sister. I had to check Wikipedia

551
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 2: and I felt at ease. But yeah, there's there's this

552
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 2: conservative sister character. Where did that come from?

553
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: Uh? Kind of an amalgamation of you know, I do

554
00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: have some trump bites in my some consent circles of

555
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 1: my family, and it was a way to write about

556
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: that without pinning it on anyone in particular, since it's

557
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: about my imaginary sister. But that was very cathartic. You know,

558
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: she's trying to get my book banned. She joins this group,

559
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: like what's that group called? In real life, they're called

560
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: Moms for Liberty, but in my strip, I call them

561
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: Liberty Mothers. And she's very envious of Alison, and she's

562
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: also writing a counter memoir, because when Alison wrote her

563
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: memoir about growing up with their father, the taxidermist, she

564
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: totally left her sister out of it, thinking that, well,

565
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: you know, it's all just exploring all these different aspects

566
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: of the kind of work I've done. And yes, writing

567
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: a memoir is a very one sided kind of thing

568
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: to do. I thought when I was writing Phone Home

569
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: that I was telling like the truth of my family,

570
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: but I was just telling my version, And so Allison

571
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: is having to grapple with that, like Sheila had a

572
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,239
Speaker 1: whole experience that Alice and knew nothing about when they

573
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: were young.

574
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 4: I mean, that's the beauty of this book and your

575
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 4: work in general. There's there's there's so rich, there's such

576
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 4: rich texts. They explore so many things. There's so many

577
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 4: also just relatable and comfortingly familiar moments, Like there's a

578
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 4: scene where the Alison character and her partner go to

579
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 4: their friend's place and they like it's during the pandemic

580
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 4: and they test they do those like by next yeah, yeah,

581
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 4: COVID tests before anyone can enter. And I was just like, exactly,

582
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 4: I did that. Yeah, that was like the first time

583
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 4: I'd seen each other's stoops, right, and I was like,

584
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 4: I haven't seen that in all the you know, post

585
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 4: pandemic media that's come out. I was like, I haven't

586
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 4: actually really seen anyone do that or acknowledge the Well,

587
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 4: it's just that simple, very familiar thing. Yeah, that's the thing.

588
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: About drawing stuff. You know about comics, you can and

589
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: and must show things, show the details of things. And

590
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: I just find that also interesting. It was, how do

591
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: you do a COVID test? And I would, you know,

592
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: got the things out and unwrap stuff and took pictures

593
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: and like, it's important to document these things even though

594
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 1: we all don't want to think about it.

595
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 2: It's nice having it between covers. But but but it's

596
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 2: it is really cool. I love your memoir work. But

597
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 2: it is really it was like such a fun way

598
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 2: to like return to your work by saying you comment

599
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 2: on things basically as they're happening, like you used to

600
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 2: do in a weekly strip.

601
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I miss that. It's just fun.

602
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's incredible. The thing that I really appreciate about

603
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 2: Spent that I also loved about Digs to Watch out

604
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 2: For is like Kaitlyn was just saying, the details of

605
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: the world are so specific to when you're writing it,

606
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 2: and the fact that you know a media trend that

607
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 2: we talk about a lot that I think comes from

608
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 2: a good place. But it's like, you know, this is

609
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 2: the book that will solve late capitalism or there are

610
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 2: these you know, broad solutions, and it's like, if everyone

611
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 2: did everything right, then this wouldn't have happened to us.

612
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 2: And what I love about your work is you don't

613
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 2: shy away from any of the problems that are plaguing

614
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 2: everybody to different degrees. But you also are like and

615
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: it's very stressful to be a person, and you know

616
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 2: you're not always going to be totally successful and you're

617
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 2: not going to be a perfect anti capitalist every day

618
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 2: because it's hard.

619
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:37,239
Speaker 4: I don't know.

620
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: Well, one thing I feel very grateful to young people

621
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 1: for teaching me is that it's not on us. My god.

622
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: You know, Okay, Mike generation grew up thinking, Okay, if

623
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: I stop eating meat, my one tiny gesture is going

624
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 1: to change the world. And yes, that's good and useful

625
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: to do, but it got turned against us, you know,

626
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: the fossil fuel industry, the meat industry, they would love

627
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: for us all to be torn up with guilt and

628
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: anxiety about our personal behavior and that's just ridiculous. They're

629
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: the bad guys, not us.

630
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I god, I'm I could go on an

631
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 2: infinity tangent, but I was just reading about how like

632
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 2: mobile gas created the idea of carbon footprints to make

633
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,439
Speaker 2: people feel bad and adjust them to the planet's dying.

634
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 2: I'm like, you're sick. Oh yeah, because there are, I mean,

635
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 2: and you're you're the world of your books are populated

636
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 2: with them, like people who want to do right by

637
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 2: the people around them, but feeling so futile in those

638
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:38,879
Speaker 2: individual gestures.

639
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 1: I just love those people. I love how earnest and

640
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 1: good they are, you know, And I want to I

641
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: want to. I feel like leftists, progressives in general get

642
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 1: such a fucking bad rap, Like what what is everyone

643
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: so exercised about? All we want to do is make

644
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 1: the world a better place? What is the problem? And

645
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 1: so I just wanted to try and really show them

646
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:02,399
Speaker 1: some love.

647
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,359
Speaker 4: You nailed it, thank you, and.

648
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 2: Then sort of to start wrapping stuff up. I mean,

649
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 2: you've in the last ten years your work has been

650
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 2: adapted in all of these different ways. I know that

651
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 2: there was a podcast, there's obviously the musical, and the

652
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 2: book is to some extent about your character navigating TV.

653
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 2: Are there other mediums that you're interested in working in?

654
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 2: Are there like stories you've had on the back burner

655
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: that you want to come back to. What are you

656
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 2: excited about right now?

657
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: I guess well, I'm perpetually trying to get an animated

658
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: version of Dikes to watch out for happening. But this

659
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 1: hasn't happened yet. But I'm really excited right now. I'm

660
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: in the middle of making the audiobook Have Spent Yeah,

661
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: which is such a funny project. Like it's all visual

662
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: humor and jokes. How do you translate that to something

663
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: where people can't see anything, it's just all sound. So

664
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: that's been a really fun project, like thinking up sound

665
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 1: effects to tell the story sound. Yeah.

666
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 4: Yeah. And I mean, speaking of those visual jokes, they're

667
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 4: one of my favorites. Was they're gearing up for they're

668
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:14,280
Speaker 4: like anti colonial, anti Thanksgiving Thanksgiving dinner.

669
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. I was like, oh, yeah, we did that.

670
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 4: We do that. And they're not sure how many toe

671
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 4: Ferky's to get, and so they get one to Furky

672
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 4: and that's on the like cashier conveyor belt, and then

673
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 4: they get another one that's faux Turkey. So it's toe fergyho.

674
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 4: I'm like, genius, perfect, amazing.

675
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:36,800
Speaker 1: Oh good, thank you for noticing.

676
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 4: But there's so many of those similar jokes that populate

677
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 4: the book, and it's awesome. Yeah, is there any anything

678
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 4: else you want to talk about? Tell us share?

679
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 1: I don't know. I always go blank when people ask

680
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 1: me that question because I I don't know why, but

681
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 1: I just do. It's like, at this point it's a

682
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: Pavlovian response. My mind was completely blank. But feel free

683
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 1: to ask me anything, Ask me anything, anything you've been

684
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 1: wanting to know.

685
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. I'm like, I feel like when we

686
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 2: found out we were going to talk to you, we

687
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 2: had a million questions and then we were going through

688
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 2: them and they were like, this is stupid.

689
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 1: No, what's the stupidest one? Ask me the stupidest one?

690
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,800
Speaker 2: Oh man, that's Caitlyn.

691
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 4: What do you what do you think? I don't know

692
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 4: if this is stupid necessarily, but what I am, let's

693
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 4: say curious about is and we've already kind of touched

694
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 4: on this, but maybe to sum it all up, like

695
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 4: I really want to know about your feelings about like

696
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 4: the legacy of the Bechdel Test, especially just considering that

697
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 4: it wasn't originally conceived to be used the way it's

698
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,919
Speaker 4: used now, and how there are often, I would say,

699
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 4: kind of misinterpretations of the test where people will say

700
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,919
Speaker 4: this movie passes the Bechdel Test for it's a feminist masterpiece,

701
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 4: or sort of the opposite of that, of like, this

702
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 4: movie doesn't pass, and that means it's misogynist trash, you

703
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 4: know that kind of thing. So yeah, I mean, I'm

704
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 4: just curious about your thoughts on its function in culture

705
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 4: and its overall legacy.

706
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I got over my ambivalence about it because

707
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 1: I feel like it's a great thing to have be

708
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: my legacy. It sums up in a way what my

709
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: work is all about, which is whose stories count, whose

710
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:40,359
Speaker 1: subjectivity matters? And this I feel like our real fundamental

711
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: issue as humans is our inability to see outside of

712
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: our own little, diminished, puny self and to understand that

713
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: other people have their own agency and motivations and drives,

714
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: and we don't. Even even in our intimate relationships, we

715
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 1: want to like neutralize that other person so that they're

716
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: not in pinging on us. We have to learn to

717
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 1: live with others, to see other people, to actually have

718
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: mutual recognition with other people, and to me, that's kind

719
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:12,240
Speaker 1: of what the test is about.

720
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, And what I love about it is, Yeah,

721
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 2: for those kinds of conversations that we've had over the

722
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 2: years where it's like it's a jumping off point and

723
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 2: your work is uniquely like sending people to your work.

724
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 2: You're talking about all of that and have been and

725
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,760
Speaker 2: it's just Yeah, it's it's like such an honor to

726
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 2: be able to talk to you well.

727
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:36,839
Speaker 1: Back at Yeah, and thank you so much for doing

728
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 1: this whole project. I love that you're doing it.

729
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 4: Thank you so much.

730
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

731
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, eight years strong.

732
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's amazing.

733
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,800
Speaker 2: It's longer than any relationship I've ever had. We're podcast

734
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 2: common law.

735
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 4: Married, love you Jamie.

736
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,240
Speaker 1: Let me where are you in the same city where.

737
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:56,879
Speaker 4: We're both based in La Yeah?

738
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh cool.

739
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 4: So if you ever come out to pitch a ta

740
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 4: as your character does and spend look us.

741
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: Up, that would be awesome.

742
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 4: I will do that and we'll speaking of cities and

743
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 4: going places. You are about to do a book tour, Yes,

744
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 4: I am tell us about that.

745
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: Am I coming to La? I gotta look at my thing?

746
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 2: No, I checked, we checked if you're going to San Francisco.

747
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: Yes, I am going to San Francisco and Santa Cruz

748
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,439
Speaker 1: and a bunch of other places. So check my check

749
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,720
Speaker 1: my website and you can find them all. My my blog, sorry,

750
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: my blog.

751
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 4: And we'll speaking of that. Where can people find your blog?

752
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 4: What's oh?

753
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:42,720
Speaker 1: My blog? You guys. I'm like, so, I can't get

754
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 1: into this social media groove. I have I stopped doing

755
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 1: it now. I'm all rusty and I just hate it.

756
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: I just hate Facebook, I hate Twitter. But I have

757
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 1: to do it to get the word out about this book.

758
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:59,479
Speaker 1: If you go to Alisonbechdel dot com, that's easy enough,

759
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 1: and then and hit the blog tab and then you'll

760
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: be in the in the Bloggi sphere. I love it,

761
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: and you'll see my latest posts.

762
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:09,919
Speaker 2: Yeah that was not to keep going back to the book,

763
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,959
Speaker 2: but I also loved the like for promoting a book

764
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 2: or promoting whatever else. They're like, Okay, you actually need

765
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 2: to post fifty tiktoks a day and become famous in

766
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 2: a totally different way.

767
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, my editor is constantly haranguing me about having to

768
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 1: do this. And now in real life, my editors and

769
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 1: the publicity people are saying Allison, have you posted that

770
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: post we gave you. I don't know where to put

771
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: it or what to do with it.

772
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 2: It always finds the right people.

773
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 4: The good news is that approximately five billion people listen

774
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 4: to the Bechdel Cast. So let's go with that word.

775
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:46,399
Speaker 4: The word is getting out.

776
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: This is all I need to do.

777
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 4: Then, Yeah, yeah, pretty much? Yeah no, but truly, thank

778
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 4: you so much for joining us. This has been such delightful.

779
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 1: Caitlin and Jamie, thank you. It has indeed been a

780
00:41:58,920 --> 00:41:59,879
Speaker 1: delight for me as well.

781
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,800
Speaker 2: Thank you for just like being you. You're so cool.

782
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:12,720
Speaker 4: Thanks there you have at everybody. Our interview with Alison Bechdel,

783
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 4: isn't she great? She's so great and we were so

784
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 4: delighted to be able to chat with her and again,

785
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 4: grab her book Spent, grab her other books.

786
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 2: Grab fun Home, Grab are You my Mother? Grabbed Dykes

787
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 2: to Watch Out For? Go see the musical Fun Home.

788
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 2: There's so many options. Also, Deux to Watch Out For

789
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 2: was adapted into a podcast last year. You've got options, yes,

790
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,800
Speaker 2: but start with Spent. It's a really, really terrific book.

791
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 4: It's awesome.

792
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 2: I feel like it's I was afraid to keep making comparisons.

793
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 2: To things, but it also felt kind of like Adaptation Me,

794
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 2: which is a movie I really love.

795
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,839
Speaker 4: Oh yeah no, because it's it's very like meta and.

796
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 2: It's about writer's block a lot, and like it's if

797
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 2: you enjoy the movie Adaptation, and you should, you will

798
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 2: really enjoy this book as well. Yes, yeah, so we'll

799
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 2: link to everything that. All the relevant links will be

800
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:11,839
Speaker 2: in the description as well as the link to her

801
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 2: book tour. And again, thanks so much to Alison Bechdel

802
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 2: for her work and for being cool enough to come

803
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 2: on this show. Yeah, we're obviously big fans.

804
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 4: We were so grateful, and we'll post the links on

805
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 4: our link tree as well. So go to link tree

806
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,479
Speaker 4: slash Bechdel Cast and then you can also follow us

807
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 4: on Instagram and our Patreon aka Matreon and all the

808
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 4: good stuff. But I'm just so grateful to have been

809
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 4: able to talk to her.

810
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 2: I know it's it was truly. I still I believe

811
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 2: it happened. I know it was worth waiting nine years for.

812
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 2: And thank you to our listeners for supporting the show

813
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 2: so that it exists for this episode to have happened.

814
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 2: We're very grateful to you, and yeah, we will see

815
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 2: you next week, we will return to your normal programming,

816
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 2: but savor this moment. It probably won't happen again.

817
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 4: Uh lovey bye, bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a

818
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 4: production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftis,

819
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,959
Speaker 4: produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mola Board. Our theme

820
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:29,240
Speaker 4: song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Vosskrosenski.

821
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 4: Our logo in merch is designed by Jamie Loftis and

822
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,959
Speaker 4: a special thanks to Aristotle Assevedo. For more information about

823
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,359
Speaker 4: the podcast, please visit linktree slash Bechdel Cast