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Speaker 1: M a guy that introduced me to the Folsome site.

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Speaker 1: He couldn't get excited about certain cultures because they used

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Speaker 1: a lot of junk stone and their points recruited. In course,

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Speaker 1: the guy had been an engineer. He wiped the Folsome point.

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Speaker 1: To him, it was like, no, that's a good people.

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Speaker 1: His attitude though. This week on the Bargrease podcast, we're

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Speaker 1: on our fourth and final episode in our series on

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Speaker 1: the Fulsome Archaeological Site, and we're talking about stone points.

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Speaker 1: We're in search of understanding the ancient, mysterious and difficult

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Speaker 1: process of fluting stone. We'll discuss the radical design and

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Speaker 1: the mechanics of these stone points and infer some stuff

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Speaker 1: about the culture of these people based on all that

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Speaker 1: we have, these beautiful stone points that we call Fulsome points.

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Speaker 1: Of all their material possessions, these stones are the only

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Speaker 1: thing that have outlasted the erosive nature of time. Well

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Speaker 1: be talking with a new guest, anthropologist, Devin Pettigrew, who

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Speaker 1: will walk us through the design of these points and

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Speaker 1: the history of addle Addles, and one last time will

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Speaker 1: tap into the knowledge of Dr David Meltzer and Steve Rinella.

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Speaker 1: We dove in and went to the dad gum bottom

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Speaker 1: of the river, and we're finally coming up for air

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Speaker 1: as we'll discover the answer to our original question of

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Speaker 1: why does any of this matter? The flutes on these

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Speaker 1: points don't play any music, but they paint an incredible

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Speaker 1: picture of who these people were. I really doubt you're

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Speaker 1: gonna want to miss this one. If you think about

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Speaker 1: like early Germanic flintlock rifles in the Americans, they were

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Speaker 1: extremely well made. There was an art to them, and

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Speaker 1: they re graved them. They didn't have to do all

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Speaker 1: that stuff, but they could with fulsome they're just very

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Speaker 1: concerned about, you know, making these points extremely well made.

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Speaker 1: Somebody put a lot of extra time and that's and

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Speaker 1: they really needed to. My name is Clay Nukelem, and

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Speaker 1: this is the Bear Grease Podcast where we'll explore things

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Speaker 1: forgotten but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places, and

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Speaker 1: where we'll tell the story of Americans who lived their

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Speaker 1: lives close to the land. Presented by f HF Gear,

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Speaker 1: American made purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed

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Speaker 1: to be as rugged as the places we explore. On

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Speaker 1: this episode, we're gonna look into the technology and designed

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Speaker 1: to the fulsome Stone Point. These points were first discovered

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Speaker 1: in the wild Horse arroy oh in fulsome New Mexico,

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Speaker 1: scattered amongst the remains of thirty two bison antiquous. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to this series, you know all this stuff.

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Speaker 1: These bison were killed some ten thousand years ago by

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Speaker 1: ancient human hunters, some of the first Americans. The technology

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Speaker 1: at this point was radical in terms of its engineering,

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Speaker 1: and the reasoning of the ancient hunters to employ this

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Speaker 1: risky style of point is a mystery. All the experts

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Speaker 1: agreed the design has utilitarian function, but the reward of

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Speaker 1: that function came with great costs, and some believe there

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Speaker 1: was more to the point than just in the field performance.

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Speaker 1: Was it cultural, was it spiritual? There was it the

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Speaker 1: tendency of early man, just like it is today to

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Speaker 1: push engineering to the furtherest side of the pendulum before

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Speaker 1: the system breaks. Will never know the full answer, but

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Speaker 1: we're in search of why they fluted these points. I

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Speaker 1: feel pretty good about what we've learned regarding the events

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Speaker 1: of this ancient hunt that we've been dissecting. We've covered

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Speaker 1: a lot of ground while we've been in pursuit of

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Speaker 1: our layman's PhD on Fulsome from George mcjunkan, the former

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Speaker 1: slave we found the site, to the speculation on how

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Speaker 1: the kill went down to gourmet butchering, to who these

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Speaker 1: ancient people were and how they lived along the way

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Speaker 1: we've been leaning on the inside of Steve Ronella Meat

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Speaker 1: Eater is insight an ability to ask some interesting questions

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Speaker 1: have helped open a broader vista on this subject. Here's

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Speaker 1: Steve opening up our conversation on the uniqueness of the

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Speaker 1: fulsome points and the inferences that can be made about

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Speaker 1: these people because of their craftsmanship, the fineness of a

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Speaker 1: fulsome point. It's the craftsmanship that goes into making a

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Speaker 1: fulesome point where you make this like very perfect point.

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Speaker 1: Every one of them kind of falls into a certain

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Speaker 1: like dimensional characteristics, certain shape. You do something really hard

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Speaker 1: to make like a point, and then you do something

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Speaker 1: like knock these channel out of each face running the

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Speaker 1: length of the point, which has a very high failure rate.

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Speaker 1: So even people now like contemporary naverage to try to

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Speaker 1: experience it. It's hard. It's like to make the thing

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Speaker 1: and knock the thing out. Most are not gonna work.

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Speaker 1: Just a delicate seeming but probably very deadly thing and

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Speaker 1: so finely wrought and from such perfect stone that I

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Speaker 1: think that adds a lot to the mythology of the

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Speaker 1: folsome hunter. And to demonstrate I mean, I used to

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Speaker 1: be friends. He passed away, but a guy that introduced

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Speaker 1: me to the Folsome site. His name was Tony Baker.

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Speaker 1: He come from a long line of anthropologists and arrowhead hunters.

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Speaker 1: He would talk about some cultures just the projectile points.

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Speaker 1: He didn't seem to like the culture. I don't mean

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Speaker 1: a way like judging them. He couldn't get excited about

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Speaker 1: certain cultures because they use a lot of junk stone

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Speaker 1: and their points where and their points were crude in course,

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Speaker 1: and he he was making insinuations about who they were,

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Speaker 1: the character they were. They weren't picky about the stone

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Speaker 1: they used. They were sloppy. They would leave, you know,

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Speaker 1: they would leave like like patentation on that they wouldn't

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Speaker 1: clean every face, so sometimes they had like a like

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Speaker 1: a patina to it. And he was just like dismissive,

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Speaker 1: not like dismissive, like not the religion or the belief system.

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Speaker 1: He just couldn't get excited about people that made that

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Speaker 1: use cruddy stone to make a rather crude implement The

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Speaker 1: guy had been an engineer. He liked the fulsome point

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Speaker 1: to him, it was like, no, that's a good people.

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Speaker 1: What's kind of his attitude? You know? Think about if

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Speaker 1: you use that same idea and projected into the future

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Speaker 1: of what people would say about us. It's a judgment

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Speaker 1: you make when you want when you're driving down the road, man,

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Speaker 1: you see you know, you see a nice house, everything's organized,

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Speaker 1: a nice beautiful garden, Like there's a boat, boat looks

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Speaker 1: rigged up, ready to go. It looks an industrious person,

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Speaker 1: you know. And then you buy a place and everything's

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Speaker 1: all fallen down and in disrepair and junk everywhere. You

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Speaker 1: most I'm not saying you most people make up old

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Speaker 1: passing judgment about what that person's um. They're they're sort

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Speaker 1: of like like how they feel about craftsmanship, how they

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Speaker 1: feel about organization, how whether they're fastidious and tidy, you know,

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Speaker 1: and and in a similar way, I look at that

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Speaker 1: point and I'm like, holy cow, man, just a lot

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Speaker 1: from that, just a beautiful point. Let's say someone somehow

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Speaker 1: anthropological techniques get very so sophisticated that we learned somehow

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Speaker 1: that the folesome hunters really yelled at their wives all

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Speaker 1: the time, terribly rude to their wives. I'd be like,

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Speaker 1: oh man, I didn't. That kind of goes against my impression.

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Speaker 1: Never mased on the projectile never never make your hero

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Speaker 1: staf you never want to meet your hero based on

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Speaker 1: the projectile points. I find that very disappointed. Perhaps they

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Speaker 1: were a little bit thuggish with their lives. It's a

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Speaker 1: very real idea that how we manage our material things

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Speaker 1: reflects some parts of our internal value system. Do you

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Speaker 1: think that's fair? Do you think that we're coming to

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Speaker 1: accurate conclusions when we infer this much about these people

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Speaker 1: from the craftsmanship of their stone points. I figure it's

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Speaker 1: pretty accurate and no doubt an interesting thought. Like I

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Speaker 1: said before, Dr David Meltzer of s M, you literally

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Speaker 1: wrote the book on fulsome and before we get much further,

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Speaker 1: we need to understand what a fulsome point looks like

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Speaker 1: and how it's made. And it would probably help if

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Speaker 1: you took a second and googled fulsome point and looked

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Speaker 1: at an image of one. Here's Dr Meltzer describing what

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Speaker 1: they look like. So fulsome points are some of the

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Speaker 1: really wonderful examples of flint napping you will ever encounter.

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Speaker 1: They tend to be about I'm gonna do this in

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Speaker 1: centimeters because because I've been doing dr meltzer. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: if you were a falsome point, you'd be in an

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Speaker 1: inch and a half to two inches long. Okay, there

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Speaker 1: we go. Um, we're gonna have to go millimeters though

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Speaker 1: here clay, because I can't tell you what two to

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Speaker 1: three millimeters in thickness is understood, like an eighth of

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Speaker 1: an inch thick, less than a quarter, much less than

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Speaker 1: a quarter. We might be we might be talking sixte Uh,

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Speaker 1: make them about an inch wide and uh, they have

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Speaker 1: this very distinct flute. Think of it as a twentieth

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Speaker 1: century bayonet, right a groove up the face. And in fact,

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Speaker 1: when they were first discovered, it was thought because when

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Speaker 1: they were first discovered it was you know, World War

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Speaker 1: One was just a decade less than a decade old,

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Speaker 1: it was thought that these were actually blood letting channels.

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Speaker 1: But then they realized that for better penetration, well, for

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Speaker 1: better penetration, and then you know, the animals bleeding and

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Speaker 1: it just goes down that channel and out right. Well,

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Speaker 1: as it turns out, these points were hafted by which

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Speaker 1: we mean they were attached to spears, and the base

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Speaker 1: of the point would have been anchored in the tip

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Speaker 1: of a spear, and it would be wrapped and held

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Speaker 1: in place and the um. There might be some fore

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Speaker 1: shafts or perhaps a notch at the top of the

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Speaker 1: spear in which the point would be wrapped up. I've

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Speaker 1: got one in my hands. This is uh, this is

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Speaker 1: not authentic fulsome and in fact that's a replica of

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Speaker 1: falsome point. But the base of the point would have

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Speaker 1: been hafted or anchored into the tip of the spear.

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Speaker 1: It might have been wrapped by sinews. They might have

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Speaker 1: used some sort of mastick to kind of glue it

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Speaker 1: in there. But what that means is that the fluid

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Speaker 1: itself would have been buried inside the haft area, so

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Speaker 1: it couldn't have been a very good blood letting channel. Uh.

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Speaker 1: These points were beautifully symmetrical. They were often finely trimmed,

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Speaker 1: with what we referred to as gentle sort of pressure

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Speaker 1: flaking up and down the edge, quite sharp, and would

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Speaker 1: be you used for um hunting. These are not necessarily

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Speaker 1: points that often had multi uses, so earlier Clovis points

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Speaker 1: we often see that they were used as knives as

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Speaker 1: well as projectiles. These things are built to hunt. These

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Speaker 1: are really this is a specialized point. Yeah, it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a point that is intended to bring

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Speaker 1: down an animal. But a lot of the time because

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Speaker 1: it's so thin, it's it's thinness makes it fragile. We

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Speaker 1: often see impact damage. You know, when stone meets bone

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Speaker 1: and high velocity, it breaks. Dr Meltzer just brought up

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Speaker 1: the weakness of the Fulsome technology. It's thin and it

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Speaker 1: breaks easily. However, that's also its greatest strength. Thin points

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Speaker 1: penetrate well, can be made very sharp and are easily

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Speaker 1: resharpened when the tips break. Devin Pettigrew isn't at the

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Speaker 1: Apologist and got his PhD at the University of Colorado, Boulder.

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Speaker 1: His research is in experimental archaeology and he focuses on

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Speaker 1: the tools and weapons of early hunter gatherers. He's an

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Speaker 1: expert on ad laddles, and we're gonna talk about those,

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Speaker 1: but first he's gonna describe Fulsome points. Several times in

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Speaker 1: this podcast you'll hear us talk about Clovis points and

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Speaker 1: we'll describe them in contrast to the Fulsome point. So

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Speaker 1: it would be good if we understood what they were.

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Speaker 1: It's handy to think about the different style of points

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Speaker 1: as different kinds of broadhead technology, like cut on impact,

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Speaker 1: fixed blade heads, or expandable broadheads. The Clovis technology is

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Speaker 1: older than Fulsome technology, and it's easy to see that

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Speaker 1: Fulsome was the next step past Clovis. Clovis is a

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Speaker 1: partially fluted point, and basically about one third of the

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Speaker 1: base of the point had the slabs taken off the

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Speaker 1: sides of it. The removal of the sides is called fluting.

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Speaker 1: Fulsome points are fluted the entire way down the side

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Speaker 1: to achieve maximum thinness on the point. You can imagine

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Speaker 1: people going, well, if a little fluting is good, I

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Speaker 1: bet a lot of fluting would be even better. If

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Speaker 1: that doesn't sound like human behavior, I don't know what does.

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Speaker 1: Here's Devon describe for me a falsome point, like if

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Speaker 1: no one had ever seen it and you just had

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Speaker 1: to use words, how would you describe? I would say,

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Speaker 1: we're dealing with a Lancelot style point, so you can

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Speaker 1: they give like a lance head. It's kind of long

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Speaker 1: and narrow, Yeah, long and narrows runs straight up the

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Speaker 1: sides and it doesn't have a corner, it doesn't have

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Speaker 1: notching in at the base. Um, it's got a slightly

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Speaker 1: concave base. They're usually thin and they're made of high

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Speaker 1: quality material. They're very carefully flaked, and then they have

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Speaker 1: driven up the face on both sides from the base

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Speaker 1: a big flute. And what this is it's a flake

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Speaker 1: that runs almost the entire length of the point and

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Speaker 1: just takes this handle. It takes the side of it.

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Speaker 1: So if it's like a three inch imagine a three

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Speaker 1: inch point and you just could just take a saw

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Speaker 1: and just cut a slab at the side of it all. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you if you could just I would say taking

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Speaker 1: if you could take your point and take a galuge

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Speaker 1: and just gouge out a nice channel out of both sides,

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Speaker 1: both sides. Yeah, but you have to do it with

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Speaker 1: its one motion. Yes, So I mean they got to

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Speaker 1: get right at one time pop hit it. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: probably what they had since they were doing this, I

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Speaker 1: mean this was a cultural you know, what we call

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Speaker 1: an industry is stone tool industry. They had a specific

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Speaker 1: method of doing it that they that everybody knew and

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Speaker 1: that worked for them and probably for close or clothes

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Speaker 1: points and fulsome points that were fluted. That probably entailed

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Speaker 1: some kind of a vice or a way to hold

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Speaker 1: the point tightly and then make a very controlled strike,

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Speaker 1: probably with what we call indirect percussion, where actually taking

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Speaker 1: the tool that's going to do the work of not

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Speaker 1: driving off the flake, and you're taking another cool that

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Speaker 1: you use as a hammer to it to strike that. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so you can set like it'd be like you're trying

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Speaker 1: to knock a flake off a rock. You put a

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Speaker 1: chisel on top of the rock and then clack it

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Speaker 1: with your hammer. You can get the indirect, indirect percussion

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Speaker 1: and direct if your your chisel analog is right on,

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Speaker 1: because you could get the angle of it just right.

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Speaker 1: You could put it right where you want it and

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Speaker 1: hold it just straight at angle and then whack. That's

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Speaker 1: probably how they're driving off those flakes, and you know,

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Speaker 1: a very controlled fashion. That was you know, extremely they

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Speaker 1: had an art down these things. The craft involved in

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Speaker 1: making these points is undeniable, and I want us to

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Speaker 1: be immersed into the process of making a fulsome point.

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Speaker 1: I want to hear it there's some real world drama

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Speaker 1: because of the investment of time and using the valuable

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Speaker 1: material that much energy was expended to acquire and the

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Speaker 1: risky fluting process right at the end either makes or

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Speaker 1: breaks the point. No pun intended. It seems like the

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Speaker 1: Burghers podcast. There's a lot of punts. But I want

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Speaker 1: you to meet my friend Rick Spicer. He's an experienced

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Speaker 1: mountaineer and a bushcraft expert. He's one of the owners

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Speaker 1: of a cool outdoor store in Fayetteville, Arkansas, called the

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Speaker 1: pack Rat. Aside from climbing big mountains, Rick is a

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Speaker 1: primitive bow hunter. He makes his own bows and naps

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Speaker 1: his own stone points for hunting. I asked Rick if

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Speaker 1: he'd be willing to try to make us a fulsome point,

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Speaker 1: which he doesn't do very often, but he agreed to try. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So what I've got here are a handful of different

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Speaker 1: preforms or by faces is another term that they're often

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Speaker 1: referred to as. And a preform is simply kind of

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Speaker 1: like a first stage of a stone point that uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, an indigenous person. First people would have created

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Speaker 1: that would have been lighter weight that they could have

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Speaker 1: carried with them, and then from there they could have

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Speaker 1: further refined that more into a specific tools. This would

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Speaker 1: have been this, This is like a three point This

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Speaker 1: would have been like a big rock, so they wouldn't

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Speaker 1: want to carry, so they would have gone to you know,

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Speaker 1: like in a um you know, alibates or or quarry

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Speaker 1: a stone corry. They would have corried this and obviously

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Speaker 1: stones heavy, like they don't want to carry any more

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Speaker 1: than they have to, so they would have corried this out.

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Speaker 1: They would have done what's called spawling. They would have

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Speaker 1: cracked off pieces of that, and then from those spalls

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Speaker 1: they would have further refined those down into these bifaces

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Speaker 1: or preforms, and then they would have hauled those off

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Speaker 1: to their hunting sites and then a camp they would

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Speaker 1: have further refined those into specific tools. Exactly, so you

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Speaker 1: have so you've already built these preforms for us today

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Speaker 1: because that would have taken Tell me how you're gonna

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Speaker 1: turn that into a falsome. Yeah, so that's you know,

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Speaker 1: where the rubber meets the road, right, and so the

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Speaker 1: thing right right right, So the thing that's so unique

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Speaker 1: about the falsome is the fluting process. And basically what

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Speaker 1: you're doing in that process is you're striking it at

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Speaker 1: the base of the preform to remove a very large

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Speaker 1: flake off of it when you're thinning that point down

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Speaker 1: to basically the maximum amount, so that when you fit

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Speaker 1: it in the foreshaft, it's very very easy. You're basically

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Speaker 1: just splitting a stick and sliding it into the end

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Speaker 1: of it and by removing these flutes, and what's really

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Speaker 1: unique is the way that there. It's symmetrical there, it's

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Speaker 1: on both sides, and to do that on a folsome

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Speaker 1: point and not break the thing is really really hard.

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Speaker 1: So talk to me about how they think they did

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Speaker 1: that with the jigs with Yeah, So there's kind of

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Speaker 1: three ways you can go about getting a flake to

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Speaker 1: release on one of these types of points. One way

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Speaker 1: is through direct percussion um and it's the most simple,

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Speaker 1: but it's arguably the most difficult. And basically, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: hold the thing in your hand and you're gonna strike

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Speaker 1: it with a hammerstone or an antler or something like that,

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Speaker 1: and you're just gonna try to knock the flake off.

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Speaker 1: But there's so many things that can go wrong trying

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Speaker 1: to do that, to get the angle right, to hit

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Speaker 1: it in the right spot, all that type of stuff.

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Speaker 1: You end up breaking a lot. The second way is

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Speaker 1: going to be through indirect percussion, and that's where you

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Speaker 1: use what's called a punch. Typically you're gonna put that

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Speaker 1: on the side or basically lead on the platform and

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Speaker 1: then hit that that tool with another tool with the hammer.

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Speaker 1: That allows you a greater degree of control over the

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Speaker 1: angle and the striking surface. But it it's still a

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Speaker 1: lot too Now you're working with like multiple things and

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Speaker 1: trying to hold it all together, which is really hard

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Speaker 1: in the final way. And I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: you know, anthropologists and certainly nappers would agree that it's

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Speaker 1: likely that they were using a jig of some kind. Now,

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Speaker 1: modern nappers have man made jigs that they've used out

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Speaker 1: a lumber and that sort of thing. But I have

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Speaker 1: seen him. I've never done this myself, but I've seen

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Speaker 1: demonstrations where basically you're driving a couple of sticks into

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Speaker 1: the ground. You're putting the point upside down and bracing

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Speaker 1: it up against these two sticks, which provide a stable

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Speaker 1: surface to press against. And then they're using a lever

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Speaker 1: to sort of gradually apply pressure and basically like pop

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Speaker 1: that flute off of the back. Yeah, and it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a very like say, I don't have experience to

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Speaker 1: doing it. I've not used jigs before. I've always used

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Speaker 1: either direct percussion or indirect percussion. But I also break

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Speaker 1: a lot of points, you know, in the process. So

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Speaker 1: with this though, um, we're using heavy duty tools at

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Speaker 1: a late stage point in the process where it's brittle,

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Speaker 1: it's thin in the likelihood of doing something wrong and

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Speaker 1: busting the thing is really really They say that they

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Speaker 1: estimate thirty failure even with the falseome people, Well, let's

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Speaker 1: do it. Yeah, let's get get it going. So I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna basically work away. Rick is working on building a

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Speaker 1: platform at the base of the point that will give

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Speaker 1: him a specific spot to strike that in theory, will

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Speaker 1: cause the entire side of the point to flake off

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Speaker 1: with one strike. The likelihood of failures seems really high

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Speaker 1: to me. What are the chances this is gonna be

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Speaker 1: is gonna work? I'd say there's a fifty percent chance

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Speaker 1: I'll get a decent flute on it. There's probably a

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Speaker 1: twenty chance that I'll break it, and a ten percent

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Speaker 1: chance that we're gonna get a flute that's even remotely

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Speaker 1: close to a fulsome style flute. Yeah, yeah, So the

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Speaker 1: platform is ready to go again. This is a direct

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Speaker 1: percussion method. So I'm gonna take uh, in this case,

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Speaker 1: the copper billet, and I'm gonna strike it at a

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Speaker 1: steep angle to try to get a flute to release

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Speaker 1: down the center of this thing. I did there again,

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Speaker 1: that's what happens. But the the yeah, I'll tell you what.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna clean it up just a little bit. And

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Speaker 1: what basically what this means now is we're gonna end

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Speaker 1: up with a shorter point because I knocked the rear

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Speaker 1: one of the ears off. His first hit, broke the base.

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Speaker 1: He's gearing up for his second strike. Here we go. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's not yeah, you can see that if I flipped

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Speaker 1: it over, there's the flute that's removed. So it was

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Speaker 1: in no way I thought that was gonna work. It's nice,

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Speaker 1: it really really you you're holding this three inch long point,

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Speaker 1: hitting it with a big clubby looking hammer basically right,

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Speaker 1: and it takes off this like delicate flute off the side.

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Speaker 1: That's when you see this process happen. It almost seems

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Speaker 1: miraculous that this long flute just peels off with a

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Speaker 1: single strike. But he's just halfway through. He's still got

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Speaker 1: to do the other side. But I'll save you the

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Speaker 1: stress of drama. Rick was successful at getting a partial

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Speaker 1: flute on the other side, but it wouldn't have been

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Speaker 1: considered a true fulsome style point. Rick said, it would

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Speaker 1: be closer to the partial fluting of the Clovis style point.

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Speaker 1: And if you're interested in watching Rick make a point,

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Speaker 1: I'll put a short clip on my Instagram and you

395
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Speaker 1: can also follow Rick at pack rat Bushcraft on Instagram.

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Speaker 1: The biggest question that remains unanswered is why did they

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Speaker 1: take the risk of such extreme fluting. The point would

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Speaker 1: have killed animals without the fluting, but they employed this

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Speaker 1: technology across vast geographic regions for one thousand years. Think

400
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Speaker 1: about this, what other technologies in human history have been

401
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:44,159
Speaker 1: used for that long? The wheel, the plow. We've been

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Speaker 1: using some form of gunpowder and guns for a little

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Speaker 1: over a thousand years at the time. They might have

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Speaker 1: thought about the fulsome point like we do gunpowder as

405
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Speaker 1: an essential thing. Here's Steve and I talking about the

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Speaker 1: longevity of the technolo bology and entertaining a very interesting idea.

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Speaker 1: The consistency that you see that is clearly handed down

408
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Speaker 1: through human communication, that spread across broad geographic distances for

409
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Speaker 1: long periods of time that these people were able to

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Speaker 1: pass down values. They yeah, they passed on a technique

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Speaker 1: of a way to make a point. But think about

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Speaker 1: the like you and I are trying to do with

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Speaker 1: our kids right now, Steve is like, we're trying to

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Speaker 1: pass down a value system to them, and all that's

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Speaker 1: left of the folsome hunters is this piece of stone.

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Speaker 1: But there was a bunch of other stuff that came

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Speaker 1: with that too. The culture, what they valued, what they worshiped,

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Speaker 1: what they saw beauty in was was translated and it

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Speaker 1: was taught to that sun, just like it was his

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Speaker 1: ability to nap a falsome point, because it wasn't just

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Speaker 1: like one generation and it was thousands of years of

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Speaker 1: people and they did it the same. And that's why

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Speaker 1: that brings up an interest point is why did they

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Speaker 1: flute this? And I want I want to hear your

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00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 1: your thoughts on why they fluted it, because it's clear

426
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: that this was a difficult process. The advantages of it

427
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: killing stuff are because that's the way we would look

428
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 1: at it as hunters. It's like, what's the advantage of

429
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 1: this projectile point killing something more efficient so that my

430
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,719
Speaker 1: family eats rather than starves, and so that's a pretty

431
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 1: heated debate. What I there's an idea that is tossed

432
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: out there, that it was non utilitarian, that the point

433
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: was fluted, that it was you know, and and and

434
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 1: I'm not saying i'd buy it. I like the idea.

435
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: I used to like the idea too. I used like

436
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: the idea too. And let's let's just be fair and

437
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: acknowledge right now we don't know, we don't know, we're

438
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 1: gonna find out, but hear me out. I used to

439
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: like that too. Then I realize that there's a joke.

440
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,199
Speaker 1: There's a joke among anthropologists. If you don't understand it,

441
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: what do you do? You say that it must have

442
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 1: had spiritual significance or religious significance. If you dig a

443
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: site and you find that there's five Bison schools at

444
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 1: the site, and the Bison schools seemed to have been

445
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: roughly arrayed in a circle, it must have had spiritual significance.

446
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 1: Not that whatever they were doing that day and how

447
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 1: those carcasses were scavenged by dire wolves and dragged around

448
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: or whatever happened, it just so happens that that's how

449
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: it ends up, or that you're finishing up and your

450
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 1: kids are messing around and they put them in a

451
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: little pile. You know, that tendency to look at things

452
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: and be like, huh, must have had spiritual significance. It's

453
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 1: just there. There's also just a lot of who knows

454
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 1: a long time past. Now, let you give something on

455
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: the converse side, real quick. I could see the fact

456
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 1: that they did a certain way, and they did it

457
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: that way for a long time, being a way to

458
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 1: make you think that it must have had spiritual significance, right,

459
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 1: But it could also be that these were a people

460
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: who lived in extreme isolation at that time. Not that there,

461
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: I mean there were there were people. There were at

462
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: the time of the Falsome Hunters. There were human beings

463
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,640
Speaker 1: stretched from Alaska to the southernmost tip of South America.

464
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 1: But these people, these bison hunters out on the plains,

465
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 1: might have been living in such a sort of cultural

466
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,679
Speaker 1: isolation that they had an idea, They had a thing,

467
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,880
Speaker 1: they hunted in a way, they hunted it, and they

468
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: went thousand years whatever it is without someone coming in

469
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 1: and being like, no, no no, no, you've alays got it

470
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 1: all wrong. Here's how you make a good project. Yeah,

471
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: here's how you make a good projectile on. So maybe

472
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,120
Speaker 1: there's this is the way they did it worked for them,

473
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 1: and they weren't subject to a lot of new ideas.

474
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 1: And here's this like these people that had this, this

475
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,880
Speaker 1: lifestyle that they lived far longer, far longer than any

476
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: notion of the United States of America has been around.

477
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: They were at it for a long time. Just me

478
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 1: sitting here in a chair. My valueless interpretation of it

479
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 1: is that it was just it was a function of

480
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: the equipment they were using. Here we go again with

481
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: Steve trying to completely rationalize the functional argument for the

482
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: fluting to the falsome points. Here he is with his

483
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: final thought on making these things. Another cool thing is

484
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: that at certain sites they'll find where someone's making one

485
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:20,959
Speaker 1: and they break it. So they're in they're channeling it

486
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 1: and break it. There are museum specimens of a never

487
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 1: used falsome point broken in lying next to it and

488
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: matched to it is the channel flake that came out

489
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: of it, knocked the channel out, went to knock the

490
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: air channel out, broke the thing, dropped it all and done.

491
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: At the end of the Ice age, people who was

492
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: probably wouldn't have been unreasonably they would have run into

493
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: a one of the last man and throw them around.

494
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 1: And then some dude today goes, oh, here's the point.

495
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: Oh here's the channel flake and they matched pairs. But that, yeah,

496
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: that's I I just can't. I think it's utilitarian. Man,

497
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 1: it just doesn't make it just compared to a close point.

498
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: The Clovis hunters who were using that landscape ahead of

499
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 1: the fulsome hunters probably had were probably after had opportunities

500
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: on much bigger animals because they were you know, this

501
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: is like this is occurring at what we call the

502
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: Pleisscene Hollo scene transition, so the end of the ice ages,

503
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: and you had this all this mega faun and vanishing

504
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: giant ground sloths, mammoths, masodons or vanishing from the landscape.

505
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: The guys before had a very beautiful, finely wrought point

506
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: that was big, and then here's this, like it's just

507
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: it's tidy. These big, huge animals start to vanish, and

508
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: then who lives there next? People that were making a

509
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 1: smaller point great point on the size of the Clovis

510
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: points as compared to the size of the animals they

511
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: were hunting. But you think a guy like Steve would

512
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 1: like to entertain a little more romantic thinking in his life. However,

513
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,959
Speaker 1: I think his point about its utilitarian design is well taken,

514
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: but maybe it's not that cut and dry. It's possible

515
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: that it could have been viewed as highly functional but

516
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: also held significance beyond that. Let's see what Dr Meltzer

517
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: has to say. We actually don't know why they flute

518
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: at these points. There's no particular obvious reason. With some

519
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: colleagues we have hypothesized that the way in which these

520
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: things were fluted, and the way in which these things

521
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 1: were half to two spears, might have actually served kind

522
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: of as a shock absorber in the sense that the

523
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: waves of force would travel through and instead of the

524
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: point banging into the back end the base of the flute,

525
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 1: where it was thinnest and again, you know, one to

526
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: two millimeters thick, it would just crumble like a bumper

527
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: on a car. Right, the bumper on a car is

528
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 1: intended to give way. It crumbles so your car doesn't

529
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: break when you when you hit something. The base of

530
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: the flute was so thin that it might have crumbled

531
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: and prevented the entire way. So the wave of force

532
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: travels through, it's going to rebound back. But if the

533
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 1: base rumbles, all that energy is going to get dissipated,

534
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: and you can you can remake the that portion that

535
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,719
Speaker 1: broke off and use it again. That is the most

536
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: unique thing about these folsom points is the mystery of

537
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: the fluting. I read in your book where it's it's

538
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: been discussed that perhaps it was non utilitarian, which means

539
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: that it served no functional purpose, but was a cultural purpose.

540
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 1: And I would like to make a comment on that

541
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 1: Dr Meltzer, as a as a bow hunter and as

542
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: a hunter, when we see this throughout history, that that

543
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: cultures do distinguish themselves and establish identity through the way

544
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: that they hunt. We do it today. I do it

545
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 1: every day of my life, like that the weapons that

546
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: I used to hunt are part of my tribal identity.

547
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: Of course, I really like this idea that it's kind

548
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: of a romantic idea that these people would have been

549
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: due in something that took an incredible amount of skill

550
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: to do and actually jeopardized. They say that there's a

551
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: high percentage of failure when you get a point to

552
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: the thirty failure rate in manufacturer, so it's totally inefficient.

553
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: But why the humans do all the weird things that

554
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: we do. Think that to think that this this style,

555
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: this technology, this is essentially a technology that would have

556
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: been passed down from generation to generation. And there may

557
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,959
Speaker 1: have come a point when God was like, why are

558
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: you still fluting those silly things? They break every time?

559
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 1: And you know at some point that shifted away from

560
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 1: that technology, just like it with today. But man, so

561
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: much mystery inside of a fluted falsome point. Right. But

562
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: you know there's hunting magic too. You're going to go

563
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: out there and you know you want to have your

564
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: best weaponry, but you know you also want to have

565
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: your distinctive points. Uh, you're gonna make your stuff, You're

566
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: gonna be in charge of your gear, and you know

567
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 1: there may be a bit of ceremony associated with going

568
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 1: out on a hunt because look, going after an animal

569
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: that was that big and could be that dangerous. Um.

570
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: There's there's two risks in hunting. One is the risk

571
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: you're gonna come home empty handed. The other risk is

572
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: you're not gonna come home at all because you're dead, right,

573
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: And so in some in some projectile points, at some sites,

574
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: you see bits of red ochre. Right, they're putting um

575
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: and it's it may not just be sort of part

576
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 1: of the mastic that's holding the point on. It may

577
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: be that there were ceremonies in advance of the hunt,

578
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: and everybody's got their own weaponry that they make their

579
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: own particular way. One of the things that was really

580
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: interesting to me at the fulsome site which I could

581
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: never possibly prove, but it's just one of those things

582
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 1: that you know, I'll bet it's right. I look at

583
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: the assemblage of the projectile points from that site, and

584
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: I am convinced that I can identify at least three

585
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: separate nappers based on the style of the points that

586
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 1: they make. And how would you ever prove that? You

587
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: can't write? But I look at these things and I say,

588
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,240
Speaker 1: you know what that really looks like the same person.

589
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying the same guy who knows you know,

590
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: maybe the women were making falsome points to UM, I'm

591
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 1: willing to bet the same person made this point and

592
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: that point, and a different person made those two points. UM.

593
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 1: And and think about it too, if you want credit.

594
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 1: I don't know. When you go out hunting with guys,

595
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 1: do you say it was my shot? I had to

596
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 1: kill shot? UM? And you can tell because that's my arrow,

597
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: yours is over there stuck in a tree. Uh so

598
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: you would have been able to distinguish. Yeah, you know.

599
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 1: That's that is so unique even today amongst flint nappers,

600
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: is that it's a craft, it's an art. It's it's

601
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: almost like a fingerprint. I wanted to ask all these

602
00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: experts the same question, so I've asked Devin too, why

603
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: the Folsome hunters fluted their points. You might find some

604
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 1: overlapping these guys opinions, but they all bring a little

605
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 1: different perspective. Here. Devon will go into the detail the

606
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: physics behind the design of the Folsome point, and he's

607
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: the guy to know because he's done some real experiments

608
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 1: using stone points on bison. The question of the age

609
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 1: is why did they use this style of point? Why

610
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: do you think they did it? Part of it is um.

611
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: You have um a cultural momentum aspect where tools evolved

612
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:37,240
Speaker 1: out of earlier tools. So before Folsom we have Clovis points,

613
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: and that's when we start seeing fluted bases, but they're

614
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 1: not closed. Points are generally larger and they're not fluting

615
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: the whole base. So this was an older technology Clovis

616
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,720
Speaker 1: came before. In Clovis, they did not flute the entire

617
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 1: face of the point, usually face. Yeah, and then you

618
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: see this this technique is kind of perfected. And with Foalsome,

619
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: they're just very concerned about, you know, making these points

620
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 1: extremely well made. You know, I'd say part of it

621
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 1: is just you know, you can look at different cultures

622
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: today and look at things that we make, and and

623
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 1: some of us are some cultures are more concerned with

624
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,240
Speaker 1: something that's functional. It doesn't have to be like, you know, perfect.

625
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 1: If you think about like early Germanic flintlock rifles in

626
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: the Americans, they were extremely well made. There was an

627
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 1: art to them, and they engraved them. They didn't have

628
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: to do all that stuff, but they could. Yeah, there

629
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 1: was some cultural value assigned to the esthetic beauty of it. Yeah,

630
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: there's a social value to it. And the the key

631
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 1: there to think of is that they could do it right.

632
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: They had the time and the resources available. It's not

633
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 1: like it was, you know, because they were engraving rifles

634
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: that put their lives at risk for some reason. So

635
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: they had the resources available and the time available apparently

636
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: to make points that looked that way. I want to

637
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: hear why it was functional for these points to be

638
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: this way, But you're saying that there was some there

639
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: clearly because of the craftsmanship of them, there would have

640
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 1: been some just aesthetic value. Probably, Yeah, we can suspect

641
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 1: that was probably the case, you know, So there would

642
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: have been there would have been pride in this point.

643
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,320
Speaker 1: Somebody would have been like, check this thing out. Yeah,

644
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: I mean, if you look at some of those, you're like, wow,

645
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: I mean they really I wonder what they called them, Devin,

646
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 1: because they sure didn't call them falsome points, because falsome

647
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: New Mexico would name till like you know, sometimes the

648
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds they wou would have called they would have

649
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: had to have. Yeah, Unfortunately that's one of those mysteries

650
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: we'll never know. But yeah, I mean some of those

651
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,879
Speaker 1: you look at him and you're just know, somebody put

652
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: a lot of extra time, and that's and they really

653
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 1: needed to. So it's an interesting thought to think that

654
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: these people would have had a specific, widespread name for

655
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 1: this style of point. It would have been a common word,

656
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: but it existed and disappeared before written languages appeared on

657
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: the earth. Will never know, but they sure as heck

658
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: didn't call them falsome points. As a matter of fact,

659
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 1: false New Mexico was named after the fiance of the

660
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:08,839
Speaker 1: American President Grover Cleveland. Her name was Frances folsom Man.

661
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 1: She got more than she bargained for. And I'm about

662
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: tired of people naming stuff after famous leaders or their

663
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 1: girlfriends in hosts of gaining political collateral. You guys remember

664
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 1: the Cumberland Gap, don't you. Naming conventions are weird and

665
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 1: rarely just though human technology has changed, we know that

666
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: human nature hasn't. And some ancient hunter mayn named the

667
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: dad Gum Point after his girlfriend. We'll never know. But

668
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 1: we've got more important questions with more definite answers. Back

669
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: to Devon, So why was this point so functional? Because

670
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: it had it had probably had some function to had

671
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:54,840
Speaker 1: to have. Yeah, to answers that, I have to go

672
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 1: in a little bit of about my background of my research,

673
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 1: which big part of it was these what i'd call

674
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 1: realistic experiment And if you're familiar with at Ashby, you'll

675
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 1: you know you're probably familiar with this because these are

676
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 1: the kinds of experiments that he prefers to test hunting

677
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: arrows and what you do is basically have a carcass

678
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: of an animal. It's um. We don't kill them, the

679
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,760
Speaker 1: rangers kill them. They've just died. And then we perform

680
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: a projectile experiment on him where we were throwing replica

681
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,800
Speaker 1: at levels and darts and shooting arrows and tracking the velocity,

682
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 1: tracking where they've hit, and then butchering him with stone

683
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: tools and then taking the bones and cleaning him and

684
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 1: we keep all the meat and so that allows you

685
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: to track you know, specific impacts too, specific bones. You

686
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: can look at the performance as they penetrate and all that.

687
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: We've done one on a bison, and included in that

688
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: were big heavy darts, a couple of of a Lettles

689
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: that are big, strong throwers, stronger than myself Donny Dust.

690
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 1: You may he's a self described modern caveman um. The

691
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 1: problem we run into with the closed points is that

692
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: at Lettle darts, like I said, they're flexible when you

693
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: throw them that they flex and they compensate for the

694
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 1: arching motion of the throw, and they actually continue to

695
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: flex down range when they hit with a lot of momentum,

696
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: lot of energy that acts not only on the target

697
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: but back on the projectile. So you have to have

698
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: a really well designed, really robust shaft. If you have

699
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: any bindings, you know where the foreshaft fits in, where

700
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 1: the point is hafted on. All that has to be

701
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: really well engineered. And if you're hunting big animals, that's

702
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:27,879
Speaker 1: what you want. You know, Donny was able to throw

703
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: a point that heavy ash s dart and hit a

704
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: bison rib and it fractured the rib and half and

705
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: continue to penetrate into the vitals of the bison. And

706
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: we're getting, you know, penetration through and through that animal

707
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 1: with these heavy darts, passing all the way through like

708
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: poking out the other side. Yeah. So these weapons are powerful.

709
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: The problem is when they hit with kind of a

710
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: skewed angle, you can have a couple of different things happen.

711
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 1: That's not good. The halft fails because the notches, the

712
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 1: wooden notches that are holding the point in snap and

713
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,800
Speaker 1: you like, you don't get any penetration. So if the

714
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: point impacts the animal at an angle, yeah, at a

715
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,959
Speaker 1: slight slightly skewed angle. Um, and if especially if it's

716
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 1: hitting bone, that's the real problem. Because you have these

717
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 1: animals needed a broadside. You need to hit them like

718
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 1: perpendicular to that bone. You you would preferably hit them, Yeah,

719
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: but that's not always going to happen, just because of

720
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: the nature of the weapon, or you might have it

721
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 1: that the point is dislodged from the haft and it's

722
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 1: kind of turned sideways, you know, breaks through, Yeah, and

723
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 1: you get failed penetration. That happened a few times. That

724
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 1: happened with unfluted Clovis forms. When you flute these things,

725
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: they're fitting kind of down deep into the notches. That

726
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: does a couple of things. First off, it reduces that

727
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: lateral motion so that they're locked in there with those

728
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: those fluting channels. And then the second thing it does

729
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 1: is that those flutes slim down the half. And if

730
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 1: you're hunting a big animal, you want an efficient projectile.

731
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: You know, we know that as hunters. This is something

732
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 1: that I see archaeologist overlooking sometimes is if you're hunting

733
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: big animals, there's a real incentive to make an effective,

734
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,399
Speaker 1: well designed protectile. Point. Part of what's that that's going

735
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 1: to entail is a slim haft because when the hafting

736
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 1: part goes in, if it's big and bulky, that's when

737
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: you see a lot of deceleration suddenly. Okay, So a

738
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 1: thinner point means there's more wood around the base of

739
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: that point the halft, so that it's stronger when it impacts. Yeah,

740
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 1: would or we find these weird things called the people

741
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 1: called bone rods, and actually there are. There's at least

742
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: one uh for shaft with the actual haft the notches

743
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 1: cut for a point to fit in. I know, I

744
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: believe it's from Oregon and that's made out of antler

745
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,919
Speaker 1: or bone, and that's that's ancient. So they were trying

746
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 1: to compensate for the wooden shaft breaking when it hits.

747
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: There's what they said, Man, we're gonna we gotta do

748
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 1: something different, and they used it antlin tip. There's a

749
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: possibility that that some of those bone rods, those those

750
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: kind of uh slat like segments are used in as notches.

751
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: It would certainly make a more sturdy half. That's an

752
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: idea that comes out of these these realistic experiments. You know,

753
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,399
Speaker 1: you're you're trying to reverse engineer these things and use

754
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 1: them in these trial and arry experiments. You get you

755
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 1: get certain insights like this, the channels lock in the point,

756
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: reduce lateral movement and since you have a long half

757
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 1: with a case of close points. You have a bit

758
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: of blade sticking out. They have a lot of leverage

759
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: to break those those hafting notches, and you want it

760
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,320
Speaker 1: to be slim and you know, good at penetrating. The

761
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 1: way I think of clothes and Fulsome points is that

762
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 1: they're coming out of this this tradition of lanceolate points

763
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 1: and where you you have things this way, you know

764
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: they fit down deeply into these these four shafts. You

765
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 1: want them to be good at penetrating. And so one

766
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 1: way you can you can try and resolve this issue

767
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: is by fluting the base. And so maybe what's going

768
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 1: on with Fulsome is they're really trying to lock in

769
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: those points. They're trying to make them durable. They're part

770
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:06,359
Speaker 1: of a composite, durable, heavy shaft that carries a lot

771
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 1: of energy but is able to breakthrough bones. You know,

772
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 1: that to me explains it. Yeah, So by having the

773
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,800
Speaker 1: flute go all the way to the tip of the point,

774
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: you can really shove that thing in deep. So that

775
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 1: would have meant there would have been would way up

776
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: on the point and there would have been blade that

777
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 1: would be below blade along the margins of the halft. Yeah,

778
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:36,240
Speaker 1: so they were One benefit there is that you support

779
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 1: the stone. It's not very flexible obviously, and uh you

780
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 1: get these bending fractures. Where would you put the sinew

781
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 1: to attach the further down the base. They were grinding

782
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: the bases so that they don't you know, when you

783
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,240
Speaker 1: wrap it with sinew, when you do get those those

784
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: uh skewed impacts or any kind of impact that pushes

785
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: the point you know, to the side and the half

786
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: they can it can cut through its own bindings. So

787
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 1: they ground the bases. So they would have put sin

788
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 1: you like, on parts of the blade up the up

789
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 1: the base that was ground, and then you just have

790
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 1: this transition where they're no longer grinding them and so

791
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 1: the forward section of the point is un ground. Sharp

792
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: Devin did a great job of explaining the details of

793
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: the functionality of the hafting advantages of the fulsome style

794
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 1: point using his real world experience. So now we've got

795
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 1: an understanding of the broad picture of the potential reasons

796
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:37,720
Speaker 1: why they implemented this radical technology. But here's an interesting question,

797
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 1: when did they move away from this technology? When did

798
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:45,839
Speaker 1: they stop doing that? So there was a point when

799
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 1: we know that they started fluting points, and then when

800
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: did the technology shift after fulsome so Clovis folks develop

801
00:45:54,760 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 1: the technology and um, they're fluting points. Uh full some

802
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: take it to really kind of an extreme. I mean

803
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 1: when you're taking a point that to begin with is

804
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 1: only four millimeters or so in thickness, and then you're

805
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 1: driving off a thin flake that maybe just one to

806
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:17,839
Speaker 1: two millimeters. Um, that's serious skill. So the technology kind

807
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 1: of the pendulum swung really far. Yeah, that happens all

808
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:26,240
Speaker 1: the time and everything that absolutely. So eventually they were like, hey, guys,

809
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:28,959
Speaker 1: this is we've gone too far down that road. Let's

810
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,760
Speaker 1: back up. I guarantee you this happened because this happens

811
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 1: in my life with my dad. My dad gives me

812
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 1: a hard time about gear that I use, you know,

813
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: because he used this kind of gear and I use

814
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: this kind of gear. I guarantee you. There was some

815
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 1: falsome grandpa who was like, Dad, come those young kids.

816
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: They quit flute those points. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. So

817
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 1: this stuff that comes after falsome is unfluted, but it

818
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 1: works just as well. Um, which told you that fluting

819
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 1: wasn't necessary because you could do it, you know, for

820
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 1: the next town of ten thousand years, nobody was fluting

821
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 1: points and they were still killing. But those guys that

822
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 1: started doing stuff different made fun of the old falsome

823
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: fluters or just said, look at all that stone you

824
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 1: were wasting because of the time, you can't get it right.

825
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:20,800
Speaker 1: Wait a minute, fluting wasn't necessary. What's the whole point

826
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: of this podcast? My romantic stone point dreams are crushed,

827
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:28,799
Speaker 1: and I'm intrigued by this idea of the shift to

828
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 1: a new design and how that happened. I wonder how

829
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:35,840
Speaker 1: long it took. I wonder if it upset people. I

830
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 1: wonder if it was a fulsome fluters kid that started

831
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 1: doing something different, or an outside influence from another region.

832
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 1: We'll never know, but it's probably not much different than

833
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 1: the reasons you and I changed gear over time. Maybe

834
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 1: we just got tired of the old stuff and wanted

835
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 1: to try something new. That seems to be a trend

836
00:47:56,160 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 1: in human history. Here's Steve and I talking about the

837
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: technology transition. You know what's wild to think about is

838
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: a falsome hunter would have been walking across the landscape,

839
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: or would have been in a camp a historical camp site,

840
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,879
Speaker 1: and would have picked up a Clovis Point, which pre

841
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 1: dated him, and he probably would have been having. They

842
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: probably had podcasts back then where the Falsome people talked

843
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 1: about the Clovis people, like we're talking about Falsome. There

844
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 1: are sites where post post Colombians, So when we use

845
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: like pre Colombian times, like like pre contact times, there

846
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: are post Colombian Native American sites where in their collections

847
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 1: of things were folsome points. So they saw them as significant,

848
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 1: and the old recognized it as something and kept it

849
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 1: and kept it among their things. They had to have

850
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,879
Speaker 1: talked about the technology too, because they would have seen

851
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: the difference in technology and understood that something changed and

852
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: they did something different than they used to, and they

853
00:48:58,320 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 1: had to would have thought that what they're doing now

854
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 1: is better than what those guys were doing, or they

855
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 1: would have done it like the guys back then, because

856
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: they were shooting it out of bows. They were probably like, huh,

857
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 1: that's like a flag. That's not gonna work. It's like

858
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 1: a flagon out of an arrow, out of a little thin,

859
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 1: little arrow. You'd have to think they would have looked

860
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 1: and been like, yeah, I could I could figure that out,

861
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: Like I could, you know, I get what they were

862
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,839
Speaker 1: doing there, but it's not something that I would make

863
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 1: not how we do it now, but at the time,

864
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 1: apparently that's a good point. They were like those hillbillies.

865
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 1: So we've been focusing on the stone projectile point, but

866
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: we haven't talked about what they used to throw them.

867
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,799
Speaker 1: Devon is an expert in addle addles. He's dedicated much

868
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,319
Speaker 1: of his research to them, and he's very good at

869
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 1: throwing them. For us to finalize our Layman's PhD, we

870
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: need some intel on this primitive tool because they have

871
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 1: been the primary hunting tool of humans longer than they haven't.

872
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 1: Here's Devon talking about add addles, So why don't you

873
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 1: just describe for me what an addle addle is? The

874
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: original word you'd pronounce it something like luck, and that's

875
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: from the Aztec language. Don't want language, so we've we've

876
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,879
Speaker 1: anglicized it at ladle and say it again. How would

877
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 1: they said it? Wow? Just really short. Yeah, the last

878
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: tl is pronounced like you put the tip of your

879
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 1: tongue against roof of your mouth and blow around the sides.

880
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 1: Luck and a lot of language, you know, words in

881
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 1: their language like kettle quack are pronounced that way. We've

882
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 1: anglicized it at ladle and all it is really is

883
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: a it's a lever to assist the body, assist your

884
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:43,320
Speaker 1: you're throwing the length that you're throwing arm, and because

885
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 1: you're you're lengthening out that throwing arm. And of course

886
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 1: we don't when we throw things, we don't just like

887
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 1: push them straight out. We throw with an arching motion.

888
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 1: Then the dart, the spear which we call it dart

889
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 1: because that's an archaic English, means just a light usually

890
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 1: fletched spear, which was precisely what they were. So it

891
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 1: would be like like what we would call an arrow,

892
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 1: except longer, yeah, except bigger. It's kind of like it

893
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:11,320
Speaker 1: would have fletchings on it, and most of them addle

894
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 1: addle dart would have fletchings, would have feathers that would

895
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:17,719
Speaker 1: guide the flight of it. Usually yeah, not all of them.

896
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: You know, if you look at what Native Australian people

897
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 1: were using, they were using unfletched forms, and most of

898
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 1: them pretty big. So these things range in size from

899
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:28,840
Speaker 1: you know, pretty small just like five feet tall to

900
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 1: overt the arrows. The darts could be from five ft yeah,

901
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:38,760
Speaker 1: so there's a huge range of variability in the weapon

902
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 1: but the dart has to flex because when you throw it,

903
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 1: you're making this arching motion, so it basically it's compensating

904
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:48,239
Speaker 1: for for that arching motion and maintaining a straight trajectory.

905
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 1: And basically you you start off just as you would

906
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 1: normally throw something with kind of the big muscles of

907
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 1: your your shoulder and like putting your torso twists into it,

908
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,399
Speaker 1: stepping forward a little bit, and then as you come

909
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 1: in to the throw, you turn your wrist over and

910
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 1: that final wrist snap is what gives a lot of

911
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:08,840
Speaker 1: the velocity to the dart. The motion that you just

912
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 1: made look like a picture throwing a baseball, yeah, I mean,

913
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 1: or a quarterback throwing a football. Yeah, the wrist snap

914
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 1: that puts a spiral on a football or puts a

915
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:20,280
Speaker 1: waist on a baseball. Yeah. You think about a quarterback

916
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: standing back there and then he just steps forward and

917
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 1: smoothly throws right right to the target. That's what you're doing.

918
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 1: You're casting this thing. You cast the dart with the

919
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: outlettl and kind of a controlled motion. If you look

920
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,839
Speaker 1: online and like any almost any archaeology museum, you see

921
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 1: this ridiculous depiction where a guy is holding one of

922
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 1: these things down by his waist and then he's like

923
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:42,879
Speaker 1: running in and all this there's all this body motion. Well,

924
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 1: you can throw him that way for distance. That's not

925
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 1: what you're gonna be doing when you're hunting. You know,

926
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:49,720
Speaker 1: You're you're standing there and maybe taking a little step

927
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 1: forward and just smoothly casting it right where you wanted

928
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,400
Speaker 1: to go. You know, when I think about an adellile

929
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 1: and someone hunting with it, it's almost hard to fathom

930
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,920
Speaker 1: how you could be proficient enough to, yeah, for your

931
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,880
Speaker 1: food source to be totally depending upon your ability to

932
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 1: be accurate. But then when I see you making this

933
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 1: motion right here, it's like, I'm pretty decent at throwing

934
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 1: a football, right, And it's because I've done it in

935
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:15,440
Speaker 1: my whole life. Yeah, And it's no different, is it.

936
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 1: These people? This is just an extension of their their body,

937
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 1: of their mind. They just yeah, it's you know, javelin's

938
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 1: one thing, and there are ethnographic cultures that are really

939
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 1: good with javelins, and they're they're quite proficient hunting with them.

940
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:31,759
Speaker 1: But when one way we've we've come to think about

941
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 1: this is it's easier for most people in society. More

942
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 1: people in society to learn to use this and to

943
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 1: put power in it without having to be you know,

944
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 1: big and strong, or without having to throw with some

945
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:47,400
Speaker 1: you know large or you know big body movements. So

946
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 1: if you so, if you're hunting deer, you know, elk,

947
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 1: just imagine sneaking around with one of these things up

948
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:55,759
Speaker 1: and in the ready, and when you're ready to throw,

949
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 1: it's just a smooth step forward and cast right to

950
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 1: the target. Yeah, it is more challenging with a bow,

951
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 1: you're you're stealthier. You know, you can shoot it from

952
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 1: a crouching position. There's less body movement. So if you're

953
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:12,359
Speaker 1: hunting a swift, wary animal like a white tail, it's

954
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 1: it's just a stealthier weapon. But with an outlettle and dart,

955
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:19,319
Speaker 1: you know, you can hunt medium sized, small animals like that.

956
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 1: But after the bow comes in, it seems they continue

957
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 1: to use it, particularly for large animals like bison in

958
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 1: open environments, because these these darts, they you can make

959
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,239
Speaker 1: them quite heavy, they carry a lot of energy, a

960
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:34,359
Speaker 1: lot of momentum, and they're they're very powerful, so it's

961
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:37,440
Speaker 1: easy to make the weapon powerful, which is hard to

962
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 1: do with a bow and arrow. Fascinating stuff. The simplicity

963
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:46,480
Speaker 1: of the addladdle is hard to argue with, but we

964
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 1: need to clear something up. What is the timeline of

965
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 1: usage between a laddles and bows? I've always wondered that

966
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 1: Devon's answers surprised me, and the complexity of that answer

967
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:05,399
Speaker 1: has to do with what he calls preservation bias. So

968
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:07,400
Speaker 1: that brings up a great point that we need to

969
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:10,319
Speaker 1: talk about. Is the timeline of an ad ladle in

970
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 1: a boat? Just yeah, give us a give us a

971
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 1: time picture of this technology when it came in. Yeah,

972
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 1: so we don't know quite hold. The weapon is the

973
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:22,239
Speaker 1: earliest definitive examples, which and when I say definitive, we're

974
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 1: talking about the parts of the actual outlet all themselves,

975
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: not the projectile points. Is usually all we have to

976
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:29,879
Speaker 1: look at. It's really hard to tell what you're looking

977
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:32,719
Speaker 1: at just from a projectile point. But the oldest definitive

978
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 1: examples come from caves in Europe and they date back

979
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:39,319
Speaker 1: almost twenty thousand years. The weapons probably a lot older

980
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 1: than that. Well, when when you're talking about archaeology, it's

981
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 1: so it's always so fascinating because like so they found

982
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 1: an all they think years old, you know, what's the

983
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,320
Speaker 1: chances that was the first one that a human ever made,

984
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 1: you know, precisely, probably didn't find that one precisely. Yeah,

985
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 1: you have preservation bias. That's that's always the problem with

986
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:59,120
Speaker 1: the earliest evidence. Preservation bias. Now that's a new word.

987
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:01,920
Speaker 1: I like it. Yeah, that's that's one of the things arcy'

988
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:03,759
Speaker 1: all just have to contend with is the fact that

989
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 1: when you're walking around as a hunter gatherer doing things

990
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:08,200
Speaker 1: on the landscape, how much of the stuff that you

991
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:11,439
Speaker 1: do and make and and leave behind, Like, how many

992
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 1: of the hunts that you've you've undertaken are going to

993
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:17,359
Speaker 1: stick around? Sarcy all just can find them twenty years later,

994
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 1: very few of them. So you have to build up

995
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 1: enough culture on the landscape, enough people doing things that

996
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:26,359
Speaker 1: eventually you leave, you start to leave signs behind. So

997
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:30,880
Speaker 1: you're saying that maybe we're building these narratives off of

998
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 1: stuff these people were doing that maybe wasn't even a

999
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 1: major part of their life. I mean, that's not what

1000
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 1: we're talking about with the ad Alile. But that's possible

1001
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 1: because we're only finding the things that could be preserved,

1002
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 1: and so maybe that little sector of their life was

1003
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:46,400
Speaker 1: maybe it was important. Maybe it wasn't. Yeah, it's just

1004
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 1: something they left behind and and we happened to find it.

1005
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,200
Speaker 1: But there was other stuff they were doing that was

1006
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:54,920
Speaker 1: not capable of being left but precisely it could have

1007
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 1: been massive. Yeah. I was talking to students the other

1008
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 1: day about those early footprints and Mexico, and I said,

1009
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 1: how many of the you've walked around on the earth,

1010
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:06,400
Speaker 1: how many of the footprints you've you've left behind you

1011
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:13,240
Speaker 1: think would last, you know, over twenty years. They're like none. Yeah,

1012
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 1: it's just all they did, all these things. You know,

1013
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 1: they made nets out of plant fiber and hide clothing,

1014
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 1: and it's extremely rare that you get that kind of evidence.

1015
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 1: And I mean even the hard artifacts you leave, like

1016
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 1: stone tools, they need to be in places where the

1017
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 1: site gets preserved and it's you know, not too buried,

1018
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:36,920
Speaker 1: but it doesn't get washed away by a river. You know.

1019
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 1: There's all these variables that go into a preservation of

1020
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 1: archeological sites and then allows us to find them. So

1021
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 1: when did the When did the bow come in? So

1022
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 1: Adlile has been around for at least wind wind was

1023
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 1: bow technology. There's pretty good evidence for the earliest bow

1024
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 1: technology about seventy thousand years ago in Southern Africa. So

1025
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 1: the bow is older than the adel able are according

1026
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 1: to our evidence. Really yeah, which is kind of funny.

1027
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 1: The boat didn't spread rapidly. Uh. While we're looking at

1028
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 1: our projectile points that are striking lee similar to historic ethno,

1029
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 1: historic projectile points used with bone arrow technology in Africa,

1030
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 1: and they have all this, all the signs you know

1031
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 1: of of impact damage and residue analysis and all that.

1032
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 1: So we're this totally off the size of the point, well,

1033
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 1: the size of the point, the damage that they have

1034
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 1: incurred striking some hard object. Um, the microscopic where so

1035
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 1: there's macro and microscopic where you know macro being with

1036
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 1: naked eye. Microscopic if you look at inner microscope, you

1037
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:45,600
Speaker 1: can see like impact striations from where they've penetrated something,

1038
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:48,800
Speaker 1: residues left behind from the hafting where they were hafted,

1039
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 1: and definitely the size is very important. But if you

1040
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 1: look at these these points, they're very much like what

1041
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 1: people were using up to uh the historic period in

1042
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 1: Southern Africa. But in North America the boat didn't come

1043
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 1: along for a long time. There are suggestions that it

1044
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 1: was appearing in the Arctic five thousand years ago or more.

1045
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: But you know, again, we're just looking at at point

1046
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:15,640
Speaker 1: sizes mostly and point styles, so we're not dealing with

1047
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 1: definitive evidence. By two thousand years ago, though it has

1048
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:22,320
Speaker 1: entered down into and this what what caused it to

1049
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:26,440
Speaker 1: actually start to spread is tricky because clearly people were

1050
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 1: connected for a long time, you know, from the far

1051
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:31,840
Speaker 1: north into the middle of the continent. But it's finally

1052
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 1: started entering into the middle of the continent around two

1053
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 1: thousand years ago, so this is a long time after

1054
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 1: it started back over in Africa. So the technology just

1055
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 1: spread or did it spread? Do we do we know

1056
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 1: that it would have spread from human to human contact

1057
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:52,080
Speaker 1: like sharing technology or was it covergent that two people

1058
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 1: had the same idea at the same time in different places. Yeah,

1059
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 1: was it disseminator or was it independent evolution or independent

1060
00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:02,560
Speaker 1: in mention of the technology and evolution of the technology.

1061
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 1: That's a really hard question to answer. Um. So we're

1062
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:09,640
Speaker 1: looking at projectile points mostly, and we do have in

1063
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 1: North America we have out lettle artifacts dating back. The

1064
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:18,640
Speaker 1: oldest complete complete preserved out Lettle is five thousand years old.

1065
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:21,040
Speaker 1: A little bit older than that from Nevada, and we

1066
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 1: have other artifacts from the outletls themselves, going way back

1067
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:27,240
Speaker 1: to the Plice scene. The hooks of the outlets made

1068
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 1: of mammoth tusks. We don't have that for bows. You know,

1069
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 1: you start to the bow is pretty much made out

1070
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 1: of organic matter, the whole thing. So, yeah, it's going

1071
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 1: to rock. And so the only the reason we know

1072
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:41,440
Speaker 1: about ad leles is because they had a part of

1073
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:45,040
Speaker 1: the ad ladle. The hook was made of something that

1074
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:48,600
Speaker 1: was organic matter but harder, Yeah, like a bone, yeah,

1075
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 1: osseous bone or antler. So these were There are some

1076
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:56,320
Speaker 1: mammoth tusks or mammoth ivory hooks that have come out

1077
01:00:56,320 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 1: of deposits in Florida. And then we have wooden example

1078
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:03,720
Speaker 1: is preserved later on. So occasionally you do get wood preserving.

1079
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:08,840
Speaker 1: That's when you have either extremely dry conditions or you're

1080
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:11,520
Speaker 1: lacking oxygen. You have to have either water or oxygen.

1081
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:15,800
Speaker 1: Devon continues on as we try to understand the transition

1082
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 1: of technology from ad laddles to bows in North America,

1083
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 1: or was the transition even that clear cut around two

1084
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 1: thousand years ago? In some places you have the sudden

1085
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:32,600
Speaker 1: appearance of these really small points look much more to

1086
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:34,680
Speaker 1: us like arrow points. But when we have it on

1087
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 1: an arrow and in some cases they're brand new styles.

1088
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 1: When we see that, we think, okay, this is being

1089
01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:45,520
Speaker 1: introduced by another culture and they may be trading the technology,

1090
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 1: or they may be another group that's moving into the area.

1091
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 1: Occasionally you also find that the older dart point styles

1092
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:56,760
Speaker 1: are being now replicated in smaller in the smaller styles,

1093
01:01:56,800 --> 01:01:59,920
Speaker 1: and you get these two populations where you have a bimodality,

1094
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 1: we call it bimodality, where you have um to like

1095
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:07,440
Speaker 1: size populations. You have like a big size population that

1096
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 1: that contains the dart category and then a smaller arrow population.

1097
01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:14,920
Speaker 1: And a lot of times they continue contemporaneous for you know,

1098
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:17,400
Speaker 1: a thousand years or more. Wow. So they're you know,

1099
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 1: both the addle addle and the archery technology used used

1100
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 1: side by side. Yeah, these together, these people would have

1101
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:29,640
Speaker 1: chosen a different weapon for a different type of hunt perhaps. Yeah. Yeah,

1102
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 1: it's really interesting. You know, they're there are sites. There

1103
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 1: was a side I was looking at. It's in the

1104
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 1: Great Basin and this this uh sand dune area where

1105
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 1: they they had driven bison up out of the river

1106
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 1: valley and into this the sandy area where they've gotten

1107
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:45,360
Speaker 1: bogged down, and that's where the hunters ambushed them. And

1108
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:47,440
Speaker 1: they ambushed them both with the bow and arrown and

1109
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:50,160
Speaker 1: the outlet on dart because both at the same time. Yeah,

1110
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 1: because both size of the point. I wonder if I

1111
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 1: wonder if the archery guys, the traditional archer guys, were

1112
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 1: given the adele addle guys a hard time or vice versa. Right,

1113
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 1: come on, you're gonna use an ad l addle. Yeah,

1114
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: that's what grandpa, That's what great Grandpa used tradition. I

1115
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:08,440
Speaker 1: mean they did, honestly. You know, as I as I

1116
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:14,400
Speaker 1: hear the stories of technology of points and styles of points,

1117
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:18,440
Speaker 1: I look at that today in our archery world or

1118
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:22,240
Speaker 1: are hunting world, where there's their different different technology, different

1119
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:25,440
Speaker 1: ways to hunt, gives identity to different groups. Feel like

1120
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:27,600
Speaker 1: I'm a bow hunter, I'm a traditional bow hunter. I

1121
01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:31,080
Speaker 1: use this type of broadhead, and he uses that like

1122
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:35,680
Speaker 1: I've always used weaponry among a thousand other things to

1123
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 1: build personal identity. And so I just can't help but

1124
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:44,080
Speaker 1: think that the archery guys were they weren't just absent

1125
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:47,440
Speaker 1: of thoughts about the guys that were using addleaddles. You know,

1126
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:49,800
Speaker 1: there's all sorts of potential going on there. Maybe they

1127
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 1: had some slightly different tactics going on, but but I

1128
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:55,280
Speaker 1: think it's perfectly you know, a viable to say how

1129
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:57,840
Speaker 1: we do it today. We definitely build identity around these

1130
01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:00,920
Speaker 1: different weapons systems. So that's that's really importan and that's

1131
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:04,640
Speaker 1: probably a part of the conservativism of hunting technology. And

1132
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:08,600
Speaker 1: you know, there are multiple times in which in history

1133
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:13,920
Speaker 1: people have conserved older hunting technologies and preferred not to

1134
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:16,880
Speaker 1: to take on a newer technology. One of the prime

1135
01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:20,360
Speaker 1: examples is it is Paul and Easy because they used javelins.

1136
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 1: That was their primary projectile weapon, and they had the bow,

1137
01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:26,800
Speaker 1: but it was mostly a toy or for hunting like rats.

1138
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:30,760
Speaker 1: Really yeah, but they fought and hunted with javelins and

1139
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:33,200
Speaker 1: they just they just hung onto it. That was that

1140
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:36,200
Speaker 1: wasn't then the rest of the world shifted to archery

1141
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:38,360
Speaker 1: and other things. Yeah, yeah, I mean the bow is

1142
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 1: in Northern Australia as well, but most people in Australia

1143
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:45,360
Speaker 1: used either the out lettle or woomera is one of

1144
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:48,920
Speaker 1: the native words there for it, or javelins. Yeah, we

1145
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:50,840
Speaker 1: kind of we tend to think of things from this

1146
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 1: technological deterministic perspective. When a new technology comes on the scene,

1147
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:58,000
Speaker 1: everyone's gonna adopt it. Yeah, that's not necessarily the case.

1148
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:00,360
Speaker 1: You know, there's there's a number of content x in

1149
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:03,360
Speaker 1: which you would hang on to an older technology. You know,

1150
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:08,400
Speaker 1: I think about adopting new technology in modern times probably

1151
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:11,520
Speaker 1: the biggest deterrent for me. Like if you if there

1152
01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:15,840
Speaker 1: was some new, big, major archery technology, I would be like,

1153
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:19,320
Speaker 1: why do I need it? What I'm doing works fine, Yeah, precisely,

1154
01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:21,360
Speaker 1: And so it's just like it might go for a

1155
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 1: couple of generations before my ancestors were like, Okay, we're

1156
01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:28,560
Speaker 1: gonna do this because they find some reason it's better.

1157
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 1: You're think of it this way, like you know how

1158
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:35,520
Speaker 1: to use a shotgun or a bow really well, a

1159
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:38,240
Speaker 1: new technology comes on the scene. It may have better

1160
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:41,880
Speaker 1: ballistic properties, but it turns out it's a lot harder

1161
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:44,040
Speaker 1: to make it, or it's a lot harder to maintain it.

1162
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:46,040
Speaker 1: For you because you could just buy it, it's a

1163
01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:48,080
Speaker 1: lot harder to maintain it, and it's just kind of

1164
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:50,960
Speaker 1: a pain to deal with. You know. Bows and arrows

1165
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:53,000
Speaker 1: are they're great, but they're kind of I think of

1166
01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 1: it as being high strung the intended there under yeah,

1167
01:05:56,280 --> 01:05:59,320
Speaker 1: exactly there under tension. They break when they break their

1168
01:05:59,360 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 1: no good, and they're harder to make, their harder to maintain.

1169
01:06:02,040 --> 01:06:06,200
Speaker 1: It's harder to make the string. But if you have addle,

1170
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:09,520
Speaker 1: was just you're not gonna break that thing. No, it's

1171
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:12,840
Speaker 1: it's very simple. It's not you're carrying around on the landscape.

1172
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:15,400
Speaker 1: Is not intertention. It's ready to go at a moment's notice,

1173
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:17,800
Speaker 1: but it's not intertention. It's not getting worn down from

1174
01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:21,680
Speaker 1: being strung easier to make, easier to maintain. Yeah, so

1175
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:24,520
Speaker 1: if it works for you, why adopt something new? You

1176
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:26,800
Speaker 1: just feel like a bow shows up in your camp

1177
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:29,560
Speaker 1: and then everybody wants it. Six months later, add a

1178
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:32,840
Speaker 1: laddles are in the trash and everybody's got a boat.

1179
01:06:33,640 --> 01:06:38,960
Speaker 1: Life moved a little bit slower, didn't that. Well. I

1180
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:41,720
Speaker 1: feel really good about the ground we've covered with the

1181
01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:46,000
Speaker 1: fulsome technology and understanding the history of bows and adladdles.

1182
01:06:46,320 --> 01:06:50,160
Speaker 1: Don't let your kids forget that they're here today because

1183
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:54,440
Speaker 1: your ancestors use ad laddles to kill critters and feed

1184
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:59,360
Speaker 1: your ancient family. That is a fact. As we come

1185
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:02,080
Speaker 1: to the end to this fulsome series. I want to

1186
01:07:02,120 --> 01:07:05,800
Speaker 1: bring it back to the original question that we started with,

1187
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:12,400
Speaker 1: why does any of this stuff matter? You know, it

1188
01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:16,560
Speaker 1: blows my mind. Human life is so weird in that

1189
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:21,720
Speaker 1: we live in we drive cars, but we're trapped into

1190
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:24,600
Speaker 1: the present, and it's so hard for us to fathom

1191
01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:27,280
Speaker 1: that there were people wandering around this place, that this

1192
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:29,760
Speaker 1: was how they lived by these these tools that we're

1193
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:31,720
Speaker 1: talking about part of your daily life. When I find

1194
01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:35,280
Speaker 1: these stone points in my front yard, if if anyone

1195
01:07:35,280 --> 01:07:37,160
Speaker 1: in my family is home, I try to get them

1196
01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:39,880
Speaker 1: to come outside with me to look at it in

1197
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:42,840
Speaker 1: the ground and and we pick it up, and we say,

1198
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:46,320
Speaker 1: the dude that touched this last was planning to cook

1199
01:07:46,360 --> 01:07:49,320
Speaker 1: his dinner over and open fire. Number one, number two

1200
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:52,919
Speaker 1: he made this, and they were they had to provide

1201
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:57,040
Speaker 1: for their families with this stone point. That's a fascinating thought,

1202
01:07:57,200 --> 01:08:00,520
Speaker 1: but it's such a healthy exercise. I think, Yeah, the

1203
01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:03,320
Speaker 1: past is essential. I mean, this is what our identities

1204
01:08:03,320 --> 01:08:06,200
Speaker 1: are constructed of, and our understanding of the world and

1205
01:08:06,240 --> 01:08:09,160
Speaker 1: how it works as drives from the past. In fact,

1206
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:12,480
Speaker 1: one of the things I always tell students is the

1207
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:15,000
Speaker 1: past is so potent that and more were two the

1208
01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:19,480
Speaker 1: Nazis created a division of their government to to construct

1209
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:23,320
Speaker 1: this view, this history of the Aryan race, and they

1210
01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:26,519
Speaker 1: reinterpreted all this archeological evidence they went to prove and

1211
01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:29,640
Speaker 1: they reinterpreted the archaeology, and they said, this archaeology is

1212
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:31,800
Speaker 1: the archaeology there in people. Of course, it was all

1213
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:34,560
Speaker 1: completely fabricated, but that's what they you know, that was

1214
01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:37,000
Speaker 1: a big part of their ideology and what allowed them

1215
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:39,800
Speaker 1: to do what they did, all the terrible atrocities they

1216
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:43,519
Speaker 1: did to convince people that this is right, so stood

1217
01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:46,640
Speaker 1: that history was going to play a major part in

1218
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:50,960
Speaker 1: the modern culture they were building. Yeah, archaeology is extremely

1219
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:53,640
Speaker 1: potent stuff. You know, It's like it's really powerful, and

1220
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:56,200
Speaker 1: you have to get it right in a time when

1221
01:08:56,280 --> 01:08:58,960
Speaker 1: it's it's hard for people to even be able to

1222
01:08:59,120 --> 01:09:02,720
Speaker 1: track a couple of generations in their family, which is

1223
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:05,320
Speaker 1: kind of bizarre that we can't because we have this

1224
01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:08,040
Speaker 1: in the last thousand years, we've had the ability to

1225
01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:11,280
Speaker 1: record history. I mean even just the advent of paper

1226
01:09:11,400 --> 01:09:15,400
Speaker 1: and printing presses and writing stuff down and written language,

1227
01:09:15,400 --> 01:09:17,920
Speaker 1: and we can we can record all this stuff, but

1228
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:20,679
Speaker 1: typically people don't. I mean, people have a hard time

1229
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:23,400
Speaker 1: learning what happened to their families and hundred years ago.

1230
01:09:23,479 --> 01:09:26,519
Speaker 1: Well it's there, you know, the history, even if they're

1231
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:29,040
Speaker 1: not looking for it, it's there, and it's what's forming

1232
01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:36,080
Speaker 1: who they are. Man. Right at the very end, in

1233
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:40,640
Speaker 1: the last sentence, after hours of conversation, we find the

1234
01:09:40,760 --> 01:09:43,800
Speaker 1: answer to the question we started with rafting a cute

1235
01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:48,200
Speaker 1: little boat. Why does any of this matter? History is

1236
01:09:48,320 --> 01:09:52,160
Speaker 1: forming who we are, regardless of our awareness of it.

1237
01:09:52,920 --> 01:09:57,320
Speaker 1: Even if George mcjunkin hadn't found those bones that day

1238
01:09:57,520 --> 01:10:02,760
Speaker 1: in that box canyon, would have shaped our identity as

1239
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:08,160
Speaker 1: humans today. Many times I've expressed my interest in identity

1240
01:10:08,320 --> 01:10:12,280
Speaker 1: and the factors that influence it. Certainly the fulsome hunters

1241
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:14,439
Speaker 1: would be a part of the puzzle of our macro

1242
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:18,280
Speaker 1: identity as humans. As much as many of us would

1243
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:22,920
Speaker 1: like to think we're independent, freethinking beings, that's kind of

1244
01:10:22,920 --> 01:10:25,880
Speaker 1: a facade. There are parts of our past that are

1245
01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:30,960
Speaker 1: fundamental and architectural it can't be changed, Like these ancient

1246
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:36,240
Speaker 1: humans being hunters, being meat eaters and procuring their livelihood

1247
01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:41,000
Speaker 1: through craft and skill and interacting with the earth in

1248
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:43,360
Speaker 1: a time when the very identity of what it means

1249
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:45,759
Speaker 1: to be human is up in the air. The Fulsome

1250
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:50,080
Speaker 1: Hunters give us an indisputable anchor point and identity that

1251
01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:53,439
Speaker 1: might help us put perspective on our own lives in

1252
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:56,679
Speaker 1: modern times. You have to figure out what that means

1253
01:10:56,720 --> 01:10:59,200
Speaker 1: to you, But I feel like I know what that

1254
01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:03,200
Speaker 1: means for me. It makes me marvel at human life

1255
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:08,840
Speaker 1: in and it puts perspective on my problems and struggles,

1256
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:11,800
Speaker 1: and it makes me want to do all I can

1257
01:11:12,400 --> 01:11:17,360
Speaker 1: to keep my life simple. I'm forever grateful that I

1258
01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:20,360
Speaker 1: was bored when I was and that I'm alive in

1259
01:11:20,479 --> 01:11:23,320
Speaker 1: two I don't want to go back and be a

1260
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:26,840
Speaker 1: fulsome hunter, but I do want to look back at

1261
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:33,559
Speaker 1: those guys and glean some inspiration, some identity, some hope,

1262
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:38,519
Speaker 1: and some just straight up grit from those people. Man

1263
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:44,760
Speaker 1: Fulsome Hunters pretty wild. I can't thank you enough for

1264
01:11:44,920 --> 01:11:48,599
Speaker 1: listening to Bear Greece. We've been on this long series

1265
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:51,080
Speaker 1: about Fulsome and we're about to switch it up and

1266
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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about ducks in the next podcast, and

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Speaker 1: maybe even some squirrels. One was an credible year for

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Speaker 1: this podcast, and I personally learn a ton. Thank you

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Speaker 1: guys so much for following along and supporting bear grease Hey.

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Speaker 1: From all the people of the bear Grease Render Crew

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Speaker 1: and all the people at Meat Eater, we wish you

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Speaker 1: a very happy and prosperous new Year.