1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:09,959 Speaker 1: BBC SDS. Hey, it's Maggie. Just a quick heads up 2 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: before we begin. This episode does contain some pretty detailed 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: descriptions of violence and deals with adult themes. Tell me 4 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: a little bit about Houston. I've never been there. What's 5 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: it like. 6 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 2: Liston is the most diverse town in the state of Texas, 7 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 2: very very ethnic friendly, lots of culture, lots of restaurants. 8 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: It might not sound like it, but I've been desperate 9 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: to talk to this guy ever since I started working 10 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 1: on this story. 11 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 2: It's a nice little part of Southeast Texas that nobody 12 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 2: considers to be Texas. 13 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: He has a unique insight. 14 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 3: We like to go out and test different restaurants. 15 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 2: Sometimes we have Thai food and sometimes you know the 16 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 2: stake how is to serve excellent food. 17 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: And his opinion really counts. 18 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 2: There's plenty of tex Mex and there's even variations of 19 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 2: tex Mex. So you can go in one restaurant, I 20 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 2: have a text Mex and then something next week will 21 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 2: be a little bit different. I think they have the 22 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 2: most cultural influence, but although the country is getting more 23 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 2: and more culturally influenced by Hispanic America, so that's always good. 24 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: Totally, I'm with you. It has taken me hours and 25 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: hours of searching online and dozens of phone calls to 26 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 1: find Air and Day. Tell me why we are talking 27 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: to you today. 28 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 3: You want to know my take on the Sandra Melgar 29 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 3: murder trail. 30 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: Do you still think about the case? 31 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, will never leave. 32 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: Me, Arin Day. He was one of the jurors in 33 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: the state of Texas versus Sandra Gene Melgar. 34 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 3: It's part of my life, part of my history. 35 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: I got called into something I didn't want, but I 36 00:01:58,280 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 2: was asked to do it. 37 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 3: I did it because that's of my civil responsibility. 38 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: Starting at the beginning, I'd love to talk a little 39 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: bit about the jury selection process. 40 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. In the Boorda for dire. 41 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: Which again I'm sure Aaron and I are pronouncing one 42 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: hundred percent correctly, is when perspective jurors are assessed on 43 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: whether they can be truly impartial or not. 44 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 2: I remember this as far as the prosecutor's first words. 45 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 2: She said, welcome, ladies and gentlemen to Ordai. I have 46 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 2: one question I want you to think about. Can you 47 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 2: convict a person of murder with no motive? I answer 48 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 2: that question, yeah, I think you know. If there's evidence, 49 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 2: we should be able to convict. If we can't and 50 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 2: the evidence isn't prevalent enough, then we won't convict us. 51 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 2: What our legal system is all about? 52 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: And what did you think of that question? 53 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 4: When she asked, uh, you know it was really unusual 54 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 4: that well, I knew it would be an unusual trial. 55 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,239 Speaker 1: A woman found tied up and trapped in a closet, 56 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:11,279 Speaker 1: her hands tied, the door jammed shut from the outside, 57 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 1: on trial for stabbing her husband to death without a motive. 58 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:27,079 Speaker 1: I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and from BBC's Studios and iHeart podcasts. 59 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: This is Hands Tied, episode six the trial. 60 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 5: When Santa Malgar walked into the courtroom, she was walking 61 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 5: with a cane and I was struck by how petite 62 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 5: she is and her delicate features. 63 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: That's Amanda Orr, a journalist covering the case for Reuters. 64 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 5: She had a shock of whitish gray hair that was 65 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 5: about shoulder length. She was wearing glasses, and she didn't 66 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 5: seem like a big, hulking woman that would have been 67 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 5: physically capable of overcoming a grown man. 68 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,359 Speaker 1: Amanda joins her fellow spectators, the media, law students and 69 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: your casual gawkers all cramped onto the uncomfortable wooden benches 70 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 1: waiting for the show to start. 71 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 5: Murder trials are some of the greatest dramas any human 72 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 5: can witness. It's really a fascinating thing to behold. The 73 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 5: greatest lawyers know that winning a jury over is about 74 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 5: presenting the facts in a way that engages them, and 75 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 5: so attorneys are tasked with the job of being storytellers. 76 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: Whoever tells the best story wins. One of those storytellers 77 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: is the silver haired defense attorney Max Seacrest. He's also 78 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: joined by his niece and protege, Allison Seacrest. Max dressed 79 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: in a dark zomber suit and wears round towardous shell glasses, 80 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: while Alison sports an understated linen suit pearls her long 81 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: hair pulled back. Telling another story is prosecutor Colleen Barnett, 82 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: a confident woman with a shoulder length blonde bob and 83 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: a sharp suit. We tried to get Colleen for this podcast, 84 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: but we didn't get a response. So what comes next 85 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: are her words taken from the court transcript, spoken by 86 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: an actor. 87 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 6: You're going to hear testimony that Heimi's brother knocked on 88 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,239 Speaker 6: the front door and didn't get an answer. 89 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: This is Colleen's opening statement. 90 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 6: You're going to hear testimony that when he went into 91 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 6: the house, he found his brother's body in his brother's closet, 92 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 6: brutally stabbed to death, multiple stab wounds on his chest 93 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 6: and his neck. He went into another part of the 94 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 6: house where he found Sandramelgar in her closet with her 95 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 6: hands tied behind her back and her ankles wrapped. She 96 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 6: was in her closet in the bathroom, and there was 97 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 6: a chair on the outside of the bathroom door, wedged 98 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 6: up against the door. The police were called immediately. 99 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 1: Colleen tells the jury how she thinks Jim died. 100 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 6: We're going to show you that what we believe happened 101 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 6: is that she enticed Timie into some type of maybe 102 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 6: some sexual liaison or something that she was going to do, 103 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 6: made him sit in the chair. 104 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: Then Sandy stabbed him to death. She says. She warns 105 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: the jury not to believe the story. The defense is 106 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: going to tell that there was a burglar there. 107 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 6: What we're going to be able to show you is 108 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 6: that there was no way for any. 109 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: Burglar to enter that house. 110 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 7: There was no. 111 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 6: Reason for anybody to have anything to do against timing. 112 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 6: He was a loved person at his work and in 113 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 6: the neighborhood. There was no vendetta from anybody. 114 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: Colleen thinks Sandy could have made it to look like 115 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: a breaken to cover her tracks. She tells the jury 116 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: to not trust Sandy about her health, about her relationship 117 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: with Jim, and about her version of events the night 118 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: Jim died and. 119 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 6: I didn't hear anything because the jacuzzi was going, and 120 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 6: that's broken, by the way, and I can't turn it 121 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 6: off if I wanted to, because it's broken, and the 122 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 6: noise was so loud from the jacuzzie that I couldn't 123 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 6: hear my husband getting stabbed, couldn't hear it. 124 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: So if this were a courtroom TV drama, we could 125 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: maybe see Colleen make her way to the jury, looking 126 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: each of them intently in the eye. Maybe she'd rest 127 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: her hand on the wooden divider separating the jury from 128 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: the rest of the court. Because this is her moment, 129 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: the crescendo of her opening argument. 130 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 6: We believe that we're going to be able to prove 131 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 6: this case to you beyond a reasonable doubt. Don't know 132 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 6: that I have motive here, but There's no other way, 133 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 6: any other thing could have happened other than she just 134 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 6: brutally murdered her husband. 135 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: Again, continuing my imagined version of what she did, Colleen pauses, 136 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: ensuring that the jury heard those last words, that she 137 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: Sandy brutally murdered her husband. 138 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 7: Thank you. 139 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: She thanks the jury and takes her seat. But even 140 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 1: if they accept that Sandy enticed her husband into a 141 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:06,559 Speaker 1: sexual liaison before murdering him, how is that possible? When 142 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: Sandy was found trapped in a closet, her hands and 143 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 1: feet tied. A video is played in court. The shaky 144 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,959 Speaker 1: hand held camera hands across the disheveled bedroom belonging to 145 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: Jim and Sandy Melgar. This is the video the police 146 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: took the night of Jim's murder, capturing the scene of 147 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 1: the crime. The room is a mess, the bedsheets, rumpled 148 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: clothes everywhere. The camera moves into the bathroom, where we 149 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: see the remnants of their celebratory evening drinks set on 150 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 1: the edge of the chacuzzi, a tub of cream with 151 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: a strawberry perched on top. Then we see a gloved 152 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: hand pull a white satin chair in front of the 153 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: closet door. 154 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 6: The Sheriff's Department did a video showing you can be 155 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 6: on the inside of the bathroom and pull the rug 156 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 6: so the chair wedges up against the door. They can 157 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 6: show you that that can happen, that she could have 158 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 6: done that, and that is what she did. 159 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: To Colleen. This video is proof that Sandy could have 160 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 1: shut herself in the closet, put the chair on a 161 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: piece of fabric, making sure that half of it was 162 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: outside and the other half inside. Sandy could have cracked 163 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: the door slightly, just enough to place her hand on 164 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: the top of the chair, making sure it hooks underneath 165 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: the door handle, close the door, then crouched down and 166 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: pulled the part of the chair that is inside of 167 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: the closet towards her, causing the chair to be set 168 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: in place, locking herself in. 169 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 4: This theory clicked for juror aar and A and they 170 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 4: showed how you can pull that chair with a rug 171 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 4: underneath it to make it look like the door was 172 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:08,719 Speaker 4: actually blocked so. 173 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 2: A person couldn't get out. 174 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 3: So that was like, oh, okay, that. 175 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: Makes sense, But how could she have done all of 176 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: that when she was found with her hands tied behind 177 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: her back. Well, Colleen has an answer for that too, 178 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: Sandy tied herself up. Colleen stands before the jury and 179 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: takes out a piece of fabric, its ends tied together. 180 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: She methodically loops it around one of her wrists and 181 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: a figure eight pattern. Then, with both hands behind her back, 182 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: she twists the material around the other wrist, holding her 183 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: forearms parallel with each other, each hand gripping the opposite elbow. 184 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: The binding looks tied around her wrists, but Colleen shows 185 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: she can easily slip her hands free, so Sandy could 186 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: have tied her own hands behind her back. 187 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 2: The prosecution was able to demonstrate to the jury that 188 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 2: you can bind your hands behind your back and make 189 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 2: it look convincingly real and not have anybody. 190 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 3: Actually tie you up. 191 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 2: So that was the big thing for me, is well, okay, yeah, 192 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 2: I guess you can bind yourself. 193 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 7: The only problem was that wasn't the way that Sandy 194 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 7: was tied up. That was not at all consistent with 195 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,719 Speaker 7: the testimony of the only two witnesses who saw her 196 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 7: tied up. 197 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: To Mac Sandy's defense attorney, Colleen's demo doesn't match with 198 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: what actually happened. 199 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 7: She wasn't tied at the risk, she was tied with 200 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 7: her arms behind her back. The ligatures ran from her 201 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 7: wrist up basically to below her elbow. And when you 202 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 7: look at the crime scene unit photographs of Sandy's arms, 203 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 7: guess what? She has red marks consistent with that on 204 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 7: her arms. 205 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: So, if you remember, Sandy was cut free by her 206 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: brother in law, herman, and his wife before the police arrived. 207 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: Herman gives evidence in court to say her arms were 208 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: bound so tightly behind her back that he couldn't untie 209 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: the knots and needed scissors to cut her free. While 210 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: Aaron may be convinced of Colleen's arguments, there's another question 211 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 1: that looms across the entire trial. 212 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 2: How can this poor little sick lady commit murder? That's 213 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 2: what I saw Sandra. I was surprised by the picture 214 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 2: she portrayed of her physical being. 215 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: And can you say a little bit more about that? 216 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 2: What is that she walked with her kine when she 217 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 2: walked into the courtroom. I needily questioned that she couldn't 218 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 2: have done it because she looked so frail and unhealthy 219 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 2: the way she presented herself. 220 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: The prosecutor, Colleen Barnett, argues that it didn't matter how 221 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: strong or how frail Sandy might have been, because she 222 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: believes Sandy planned the whole thing and took Jim completely 223 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: by surprise. 224 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 6: So she gets Himie to sit down in the chair 225 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 6: and maybe she's massaging his neck or whatever, I don't 226 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 6: know what, and then she pulls it out and then 227 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 6: while he isn't looking, she makes a strike straight up 228 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 6: all the way to his neck. That's what the first 229 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 6: strike is. Jimie of course, gets up to try to 230 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 6: defend himself, turns around and that's when she gets him 231 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 6: on the thumb and that's when the blood starts spurting 232 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 6: out onto the chair. This was the first strike, and 233 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 6: then she had him. There was no place for him 234 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 6: to go. As you saw, there's only two feet wide 235 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 6: and not that deep. He was just stabbed to death. 236 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 6: She had the knife. 237 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: Colleen points out that jim wasn't a big guy. At 238 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: five foot seven, he was a bit taller than Sandy, 239 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: but she's heavier than his one hundred and twenty five pounds, 240 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: and the stab wounds weren't particularly deep, three inches at most, 241 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: which gets Duror Air and Day thinking. 242 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 2: It made sense that she didn't have to be superwoman, 243 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 2: strong or any of those other things you would think 244 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 2: a murderer would have to do to murder somebody. 245 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: But there's also the matter of Sandy's health. She's had 246 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: her hips replaced, has epilepsy, and loopis an Ever since 247 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: her police interview, she has pointed to her health as 248 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: a possible explanation for not knowing what happened at the 249 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: night Jim was killed. Sandy suspects she a seizure and 250 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: blacked out. I want to go into that. Colleen has 251 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: her medical records from Sandy's primary care doctor and asks 252 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: a witness to read them to the court. 253 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 6: Under seizure disorder. 254 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: What does it say that she was stable? Reads the witness. 255 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: Sandy's medical records show that, despite fairly regular checkups, she 256 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: hasn't reported having a single seizure in the four years 257 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: before Jim's murder. According to Colleen, yes, Sandy had a 258 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: condition that could cause seizures, but it was stable, controlled 259 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: by medication. 260 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 8: Sandy hadn't felt good, she had been resting a lot. 261 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 8: She had been experiencing auras, which are many seizures. 262 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: Defense attorney Allison Seacrest argues that those medical records don't 263 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: tell the full story or reflects Sandy's health in the 264 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: months before Jim's death. 265 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 2: If she's using her illnesses and she's saying she can 266 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 2: veniently had a seizure and then a blackout for twelve 267 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 2: hours when her drugs were supposedly controlling these things, and 268 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 2: she was not complaining to her doctors, maybe she did blackout, 269 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 2: but I can't find any evidence that. 270 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 3: She did. 271 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: Over ten days. Colleen tears into Sandy's claim of innocence. 272 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: Colleen tells the court that she was unhappy, plotted the 273 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: whole thing and locked herself in the closet and tied 274 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,719 Speaker 1: her own hands. The only thing that is missing is 275 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 1: why why would Sandy do this? When I've ordired you, guys. 276 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,479 Speaker 6: One of the things that I was a little worried 277 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,679 Speaker 6: about was motive, because I showed you the things we 278 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 6: have to prove, and we've proven all of them. We've 279 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 6: proven all of them, but motive is not one of them. 280 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 6: And one of the things that I worried about being 281 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 6: able to establish that. 282 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: She offers the jury a theory or two. The first 283 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: is the classic Jim had life insurance policies worth some 284 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 1: half a million dollars. 285 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 6: She'd be getting a lot of money. 286 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 1: The second is religion. Colleen argues that as a devout 287 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: Jehovah's witness, Sandy couldn't divorce Jim without being ostracized. 288 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 6: But if I kill him and nobody finds out, I'm 289 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 6: not ostracized and nobody finds out and I still get 290 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 6: the money. 291 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 1: I can imagine Colleen locking eyes with the jury, ensuring 292 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: that her last words are heard clearly. 293 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 6: There's zero evidence, zero evidence, zero evidence that somebody else 294 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 6: did this, no evidence that anybody else did this. She's guilty, 295 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 6: ladies and gentlemen, She's guilty. Please find her so, thank you. 296 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: Now it's the defense's turn to take the stage to 297 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 1: try and convince the jury that the prosecution has got 298 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: it all wrong and Sandy is innocent. When it's the 299 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: defense's turn to address the jury and defend Sandy, Maxiecrest 300 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:32,360 Speaker 1: makes a big decision. He doesn't call Sandy to the stand. Instead, 301 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: he relies on a very simple but powerful argument. 302 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 7: It's the worst investigated case I've ever seen. 303 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 1: He says. The only reason Sandy is on trial is 304 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: because the police fail to do their job properly. 305 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 7: They had an agenda, they weren't objective, and they jumped 306 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 7: to conclusions, and they were sloppy. They assumed. It's the 307 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,360 Speaker 7: old rubric that if two people are married and one 308 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 7: of them's dan thee, the other one must have done it. 309 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 7: And that pretty much what propelled the entire investigation from 310 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 7: the get go. 311 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: He claims, potentially crucial evidence slipped through the cracks. 312 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 7: There's actually a bloody thumb print on a safe in 313 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 7: the closet where Jimi was found. 314 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 1: Mac tells the jury that this is the bloody smear 315 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 1: that Liz noticed when she was packing up her old house. 316 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: When she's called as a witness, Liz tells the court 317 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: she sent a photo of the bloody mark to the 318 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 1: police and they told her it had already been processed. 319 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 7: And guess what, they didn't bother to analyze it. In fact, 320 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 7: one of the detectives said that it had been analyzed, 321 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 7: when in fact it never had been. 322 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 1: The crime scene investigator tells the court that his team 323 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 1: had spotted the blood, but they didn't swab it for 324 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 1: DNA or toss the safe for prints. When asked on 325 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: the stand, why, he says, because we assumed it was 326 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: Sandy's blood. 327 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 7: So I mean, again, this is indicative of what we're 328 00:20:59,119 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 7: dealing with. 329 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,199 Speaker 1: According to Mac and his fellow defense attorney, Alison Seacrest, 330 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: the police cherry picked evidence that suited their case and 331 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: ignored anything that didn't, like the fact that forensic analysis 332 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: of the Melgar's phones and computers and a keyword search 333 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: for rope not stab, crime scene and murder revealed nothing. 334 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: And according to friends, family, and neighbors, the Melgars had 335 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: a healthy relationship. 336 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 8: There was no evidence of any kind of infidelity or 337 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 8: animosity between the pair. Sandra and Jim had a really 338 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 8: loving relationship. 339 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: Then there's the lack of physical evidence linking Sandy to 340 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: the murder. 341 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 7: Jim died in a brutal savage attack at least fifty 342 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 7: one sharp force and blunt force injuries, thirty one what 343 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 7: we call sharp force trauma. He had all the hallmarks 344 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 7: of someone who'd been eating to death. What's startling is 345 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 7: when you examine Sandy's hands, there was no trauma to 346 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:14,959 Speaker 7: her hands. It's very very common in stabbing cases that 347 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 7: if I'm holding a knife and I start to stab you, 348 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 7: and I stab you and I stab you, it's going 349 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 7: to produce a lot of blood. And it's very typical 350 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 7: that that blood will cause your hand to slip, and 351 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 7: the assailant will likely cut his or her own hand by, 352 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 7: you know, repeatedly wielding a bloody instrument. In Sandy's case, 353 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 7: the inside of her hands no cuts at all, and amazingly, 354 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 7: she had ten beautiful fingernails, no brakes, no chips, no cracks, 355 00:22:54,560 --> 00:23:00,719 Speaker 7: and yet she supposedly brutally worked him over, including hitting 356 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 7: him with her fist. 357 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 1: Jim's autopsy report details fractures to a skull, bruises on 358 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: his head, shoulders, torso, arms, and legs, and notes that 359 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: there was internal bleeding linked to some of those bruises. 360 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 7: Because of the fifty one plus blunt and sharp force injuries, 361 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 7: it was agreed to by all sides that the assailant 362 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 7: would be covered in blood. There was no blood found 363 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 7: on Sandy at all. There was no blood found on 364 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 7: any of Sandy's clothing at all all. The examination of 365 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 7: her fingernails and the DNA under her fingernails no blood. 366 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 1: At all, and there was no evidence of a cleanup 367 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: to the defense. This proof Sandy didn't kill Jim, and 368 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,239 Speaker 1: make some question why the police so quickly discounted the 369 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: theory of a robbery gone wrong. They seem to believe 370 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 1: that there was no obvious signs of a break in, 371 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: no windows broken, no doors knocked in, so no robbery. 372 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 8: I think she was the only suspect because these officers 373 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 8: rushed to judgment and made up their mind that because 374 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 8: there was no forced entry into the house that it 375 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 8: had to have been Sandy. 376 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: But there is one key sign the police may have overlooked. 377 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 8: Sandy told the detectives in her interrogation that the garage 378 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 8: door could have been left open. 379 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 7: The garage was open when the family arrived and was 380 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 7: able to enter the house through the unlocked interior door. 381 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 7: So that's how Hermann got into the house, and we believe, 382 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 7: of course, that's how the intruders got into the house. 383 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: Did Duror Aaron Day Though this argument doesn't add up. 384 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 2: My thought process was, yes, the garage door may have 385 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 2: been open, but if you go to somebody's house to 386 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 2: rob them, why would you murder one and leave another 387 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 2: one tied up in a closet. It just didn't make 388 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 2: sense that the defense said this was a robbery gone 389 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 2: bad and person got killed. 390 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 9: It's Sunday, December twenty third, twenty twelve. This is Sean CARIZL. 391 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 9: Harris kind of Shaff's office, Homicide sixty Henry forty two. 392 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 9: The current time is nine forty two pm. Okay, ma'am, 393 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 9: can you identify. 394 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: Yourself for me? 395 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 10: Sandra Milber. 396 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 1: One part of the story that I can't quite shake 397 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: is Sandy's interview with the police the night she was found. 398 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 1: If you remember, she's distressed, can't remember details. 399 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 7: We went up to eat. 400 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 3: Okay, where's on the we at. 401 00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 10: Mexican restaurant? 402 00:25:58,800 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: I think it was a. 403 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 9: Products pros. 404 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, what time was that? 405 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 7: I wasn't. 406 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: Cucos cucos? 407 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 10: Uh, I'm listening about eight. I mean, I'm just guessing. 408 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 7: I don't know. 409 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: How will this tape play in court to the prosecution. 410 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: Sandy's behavior proves she's dodgy, She's evasive, unclear, she seems numb, detached, 411 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: and when she cries, they don't see tears. 412 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 3: Are you governing something else? 413 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 7: Why would you take a pograph? 414 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 9: Because I'm so stressed right now I can't even think straight. 415 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 7: It's not a good reason. 416 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 9: Well, I just don't want to use against me, That's 417 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 9: all I'll take it. 418 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 7: But not just. 419 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 1: Because I'm stressed, And I mean. 420 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 10: I just beyond beyond that she. 421 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 2: Was making them because she would answer questions. You know, 422 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 2: she would avoid eye contact, she would avoid and she 423 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 2: would mumble, and she wasn't shedding tears and emotion. 424 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: But the defense call an expert witness, a former police 425 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: investigator who's reviewed the interview. He tells the court he 426 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 1: didn't see any sign that Sandy was trying to mislead 427 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 1: the officers or that they ever considered she was traumatized 428 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: in the victim of a serious crime, the ars screaming. 429 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 10: I didn't hear when he was in pain. We know 430 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 10: that he suffered a lot. I need you to help me. 431 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 10: I need you to help me. I need you to 432 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:50,199 Speaker 10: help me on this. Help me, Sandra, help me. 433 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 9: Tell me, cousin Deny Scott, he went to a lot 434 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 9: of pain. 435 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 10: Help me. 436 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 9: I didn't hear anything stopping. 437 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 3: How need help and. 438 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 7: I need help help me. 439 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 10: That's it, that's it. 440 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 7: I need a lawyer. 441 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 9: I'm not talking anymore because you guys are just trying 442 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 9: to torture me. 443 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 7: Here. We wanted the jury to hear her suggesting that 444 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 7: maybe she ought to get a lawyer, because obviously the 445 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 7: tenor of the questioning was absolutely unfair. 446 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 3: So you said, I want to stop ze lair. 447 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,120 Speaker 2: They should have stopped, So that'sn't really where I blame 448 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 2: the investigators interrogators. 449 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: Immediately after that police interview, Detective Carousel contacts the District 450 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: Attorney's office to try and charge Sandy. However, the DEA refuses, 451 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: saying they need more evidence. 452 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 7: Here's a guy that even before they know the analysis 453 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 7: of what the DNA may show, hours before the crime 454 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 7: scene people had left, it's saying he's trying to get 455 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 7: murder charges filed. 456 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: Mac wants the jury to see this as yet another 457 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: example of a biased and narrow approach by the police, 458 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: but Detective Sean Carosel says he was just keeping the 459 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: DA informed. 460 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 2: No wonder why they were suspicious at the onset, and 461 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,959 Speaker 2: that's why I give the police credit for being suspicious 462 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 2: that they had their murderer and they didn't need to 463 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 2: do more investigations. 464 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 1: Mac then reveals his trump card. Detective Sean Carousel has 465 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: been fired. Two of Sean Carousel's former colleagues tell the 466 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: court that his work on a previous case was sloppy 467 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: and that he's not truthful. For journalists Amanda or listening 468 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: to this in court, it's a slam dunk. 469 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 5: The fact that the lead detective had been fired and 470 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 5: the fact that there were testimonies that the lead detective 471 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 5: had been untruthful in other investigations would have been enough 472 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 5: for me as a juror to say that everything about 473 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 5: this investigation is called into question. 474 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: But she's not on the jury. Aaron is, and he's 475 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: more well forgiving. 476 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, nobody's perfect, Maggie. 477 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: The jury aren't told the full story about why Sean 478 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: Carousel was fired, only that there was an issue over 479 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: a search warrant. But the truth is he forged a 480 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,719 Speaker 1: search warrant in another case and lied about it. We 481 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: reached out to Sean Carasel for the story, but he 482 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: didn't respond to our questions. 483 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 2: Closing arguments have just wrapped up in the case against 484 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 2: a woman accused of murdering her husband and then trying 485 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 2: to cover it up. 486 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 5: I told Colleen Barnett that she did the best she could. 487 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,719 Speaker 8: Sandy couldn't have done it, and the evidence is so clear. 488 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: The members of the media watching end court didn't seem 489 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: so sure. 490 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 8: Yes, Bill Well, the prosecutor arguing very strongly that Sandra 491 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 8: Melgar did murder her husband. 492 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: Now it's up to the jury. Sandra Melgar's fate lies 493 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: in their hands. 494 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 3: Well, I tried to keep it help in mind. 495 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 2: I want to believe somebody is innocent until the stake 496 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 2: can prove them guilty. And then we all went back 497 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 2: in the room kind of like, uh, okay, where do 498 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 2: we start. 499 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: You've been listening to Hands Tied, a new eight part 500 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: true crime series from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts. New 501 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: episodes will be released weekly, so subscribe or follow on 502 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts so 503 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: you don't miss out. If you like the show, please 504 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: help us by spreading the word or giving us a 505 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: five star review. I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and the producer 506 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: is Maggie Latham. Sound design and mix is by Tom Brignell. 507 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: Our script consultant is Emma Weatherall production support is from 508 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: Dan Martini, Elena Boutang and Mabel Finnegan Wright, and our 509 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: production executive is Laura Jordan Rawl. The series was developed 510 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: by Anya Saunders and Emma Shaw at iHeart. The Managing 511 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: Executive Producer is Christina Everett, and for BBC Studios, the 512 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: Executive producer is Joe Kent. James Cook is the Creative 513 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: Director A Factual for BBC Studios Audio and the Director 514 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: of Audio at BBC Studios is Richard Knight.