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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noah.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben.

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Speaker 4: We're joined as always with our super producer Dylan the

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Speaker 4: Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 3: You are here.

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Speaker 4: That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 4: Friends and neighbors, fellow conspiracy realists, we have something special

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Speaker 4: for you tonight. It is a strange, deep, disturbing dare

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Speaker 4: I say, shaman Alan esque Cohen hell pro esque tale

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Speaker 4: that may not be familiar to everyone in the audience.

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Speaker 4: The California Timber Wars.

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Speaker 3: Have you heard of it? Maybe? Maybe not.

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Speaker 4: In the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties, activists hoped to

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Speaker 4: end overcutting of redwoods throughout well Redwood's in particular, timber

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Speaker 4: in general, throughout parts of California, and there was a

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Speaker 4: particular organization involved in this called Earth First with an

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Speaker 4: exclamation point. They took direct actions. One of the leaders

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Speaker 4: of these efforts was an activist named Judy Barry who Well,

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Speaker 4: we'll get to it in a second. It's a deep

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Speaker 4: and crucial story that is yet to be told in full. Luckily, gentlemen, friends, neighbors, countrymen,

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Speaker 4: we are not diving in alone. We are joined by

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Speaker 4: get this, guys, none other than the legendary investigator, writer, podcaster,

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Speaker 4: and creator of multiple shows that we're big fans of,

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Speaker 4: our returning pal, the mythical, the legendary, the one and only,

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Speaker 4: Toby Ball.

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Speaker 3: Toby. Come on, man, thank you for showing up. Hey,

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Speaker 3: thank you. It's nice to see you, guys.

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Speaker 5: Guys behind the curtain. He's been there the whole time.

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Speaker 3: It's crazy.

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Speaker 5: Definitely a unicorn of a human. We've talked to Toby

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Speaker 5: about other series that he's done, including Strange, Rivals and Today.

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Speaker 4: And Rendallshim Forrest two seasons, Rivals First Seas check them

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Speaker 4: out right now.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, this is.

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Speaker 4: RIP Current season two and Toby I was I was

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Speaker 4: looking into this because I'm a fan of tangential, non

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Speaker 4: relevant research.

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Speaker 3: I think as we all.

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Speaker 5: Are, big part of what we do here.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and one of the things that I noted, I said, Hey,

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Speaker 4: our pal mister b is coming on to the show.

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Speaker 4: For the third time. Saturday Night Live rules say that

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Speaker 4: if you make it to the fifth appearance, we have

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Speaker 4: to get you like a special jacket and throw a party.

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Speaker 5: I want a special jacket. I've been on five episodes.

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Speaker 3: Well that's motivation to the other two going there you go,

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Speaker 3: it's gonna happen.

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Speaker 5: Maybe we'll all get matching jackets. That would be cool.

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Speaker 4: That'd be cool, especially if we roll as a group

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Speaker 4: in our jackets that do a heist.

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Speaker 5: You know, walk away from an explosion and slash into Oh.

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Speaker 4: There we go, and that's apropos. That's what we call foreshadowy.

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Speaker 3: Toby, can you.

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Speaker 4: Set the stage for us with a little bit of

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Speaker 4: an origin story? We throughout the phrase timber Wars? What

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Speaker 4: were the timber Wars? What about this led you to

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Speaker 4: rip current season two?

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Speaker 3: So I even before the timber Wars and I was

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Speaker 3: actually Matt was in on this conversation at one point.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to do something sort of about environmental activism.

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Speaker 3: You know, in this period where you know the consequences

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Speaker 3: of global warming are quite clear, but there doesn't seem

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Speaker 3: to be this kind of hair on fire reaction to it,

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Speaker 3: Like you don't see eco sabotage trying to you know,

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Speaker 3: sabotage pipelines or other things that might slow down fossil

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Speaker 3: fuel use and things like that. So I'd spent some

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Speaker 3: time kind of researching, trying to find what would be

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Speaker 3: sort of a compelling story. There's other things. There was

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Speaker 3: the Green Peace boat that was sunk by the French

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Speaker 3: intelligence services, a couple of others. But I ended up

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Speaker 3: coming across the Timber Wars, and part of you know,

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Speaker 3: the rip current. The idea behind rip Current is to

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Speaker 3: look at a crime that occurs in sort of a

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Speaker 3: complicated social and political setting. And in this case, I

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Speaker 3: sort of vaguely remembered this because this happened in nineteen ninety,

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Speaker 3: which is like right after I got out of college.

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Speaker 3: I remember reading about it. But Judy Barry, who was

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Speaker 3: this organizer for Earth Verst, a leader uh and her

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Speaker 3: you know, former lover and like long times her partner

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Speaker 3: and activism, this guy Darryl Churney, were driving in a

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Speaker 3: car in Oakland and a pipe bomb went off in

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Speaker 3: it and it should have killed them both, but it

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Speaker 3: slightly malfunctioned. Judy was grievously injured. She only lived seven

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Speaker 3: more years. She died of breast cancer, but she was

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Speaker 3: in pain for the rest of her life. Uh, you know,

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Speaker 3: I believe had to walk aided with a cane, you know,

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Speaker 3: really just physically messed up. And then Darryl got away with,

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Speaker 3: you know, some some fairly light wounds. But it originally

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Speaker 3: came to the press and the FBI and the in

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Speaker 3: the Oakland police kind of put it out there as oh,

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Speaker 3: they were carrying these explosives and they and they detonated

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Speaker 3: in the car by accident, so theyre going to probably

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Speaker 3: actually do some terroristic action, but the explosive blew up

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Speaker 3: in the car, So that was kind of the central

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Speaker 3: sort of crime that could kind of focus these other

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Speaker 3: things that were going on. Do you want me to

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Speaker 3: go back a little bit to talk about Yea, the

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Speaker 3: timber wars themselves. Yeah, so the Redwoods used to be

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Speaker 3: this vast forest right in California, and so if you

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Speaker 3: go to sort of pre European contact seventeen hundreds, I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's huge and from basically the first time Europeans made

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Speaker 3: it to that area of California, they're like these these

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Speaker 3: are incredible trees. You know, you can't quite get a

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Speaker 3: sense of it from looking at pictures, but they're you know,

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Speaker 3: two hundred and fifty three hundred feet high. There's no

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Speaker 3: branches below. All the branches are very high where they

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Speaker 3: can get the sun. So this is very good wood.

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Speaker 3: It's not naughty. It's got these other properties as well.

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Speaker 3: They keep it from rotting and resistant from fire. So

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Speaker 3: over the course of you know, two centuries, with various means,

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Speaker 3: from two guys using a saw for a few days

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Speaker 3: to cut down one to all these technological advances, when

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Speaker 3: you get to the nineteen eighties, about ninety five percent

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Speaker 3: of the old growth redwoods are gone, right, and some

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Speaker 3: of these trees have been around for two thousand years,

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Speaker 3: so five percent are left. Some of that is in

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Speaker 3: public hands, so it's in state parks or national parks.

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Speaker 3: The largest bit of it that's in private hands is

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Speaker 3: owned by this place called Pacific Lumber, which was a

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Speaker 3: family owned and operated big lumber operation out of a

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Speaker 3: place called Scotia, which was a real company town. Like

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Speaker 3: everything there was owned by Pacific Lumber. So if you

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Speaker 3: worked there, you lived in a Pacific Lumber house and

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Speaker 3: all this stuff. So essentially teen eighty five, this guy

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Speaker 3: named Charles Hurwitz who was. I believe he was a

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Speaker 3: multi multi, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars. It's

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Speaker 3: one of the first times people used junk bonds to

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Speaker 3: buy something. But he saw that Pacific Lumber, which had

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Speaker 3: been run really responsibly. They used sustainable cutting. They had

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Speaker 3: a big pension for retirees in their company. Not a

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Speaker 3: bad company down Yeah, yeah, I mean people people apparently

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Speaker 3: really liked it.

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Speaker 5: They're taking care of their people, yes.

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Speaker 3: Right, But they went public a little while before that,

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Speaker 3: so they issued stock and because they were so responsible

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Speaker 3: and so healthy they were, they were very undervalued, so

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Speaker 3: that made them sort of prey to these capitalistic forces.

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Speaker 3: Hurwitz comes in, uses junk bonds to purchase Pacific Lumber,

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Speaker 3: and it becomes very clear that the only way he's

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Speaker 3: going to be able to pay off the interest and

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Speaker 3: make this all work is by clear cutting the Pacific

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Speaker 3: Lumber forests, which includes this huge area of old growth redwoods,

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Speaker 3: which there's not much left, right, So.

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Speaker 2: So just Toby quickly, Yeah, the Redwood Force at this

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Speaker 2: point of the takeover by Charles hurwitzon was it maxim

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Speaker 2: his company, Yeah, yeah, So at that moment, the forest

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Speaker 2: of redwoods is already down ninety five. At that point

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Speaker 2: of old growth, there's still you know, there's second.

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Speaker 3: Growth, third growth, fourth growth, but that you know, these

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Speaker 3: are not mature trees yet. Okay, so the really old ones,

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Speaker 3: which are you know, I think in ecological terms, the

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Speaker 3: most valuable. I mean, it's sort of interesting how you

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Speaker 3: look at the value of trees, especially if you're a

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Speaker 3: lumber lumberman, you know, like what you're going to be

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Speaker 3: able to get out of your acreage on a sort

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Speaker 3: of year by year basis. So at that point it

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Speaker 3: becomes clear that this is probably what's going to happen

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Speaker 3: been and it starts happening, and a couple things, you know,

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Speaker 3: for timber workers, they're like, you know, this is actually

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Speaker 3: kind of awesome. You know, we're working all this overtime,

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Speaker 3: we're getting much more money because we're speeding up the cut.

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Speaker 3: And then you have environmentalists who are like, well, this

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Speaker 3: is you know, this is going to be the end

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Speaker 3: of a significant proportion of these old growth redwoods, which

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Speaker 3: are you know, I mean, they're like sort of quote

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Speaker 3: unquote a renewable resource because you can grow new redwoods,

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Speaker 3: but you're not going to get the same thing for

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Speaker 3: fifteen hundred years, you know, I mean, these these trees

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Speaker 3: have been around. You know. That was one of the

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Speaker 3: ads or pamphlets or something was like some of these

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Speaker 3: trees have been around since Christ walked the earth. Right. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so Earth First, which is sort of, you know, on

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Speaker 3: the radical side of the environmentalists. I mean, they sort

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Speaker 3: of define the furthest radical edge at that point. You know,

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Speaker 3: they said, we're gon, we're going to try right and

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Speaker 3: stop this, slow it down. And that's kind of direct

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Speaker 3: led to the timber Wars. Yeah, it was. So, you know,

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Speaker 3: as with everything in this I could go on for

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Speaker 3: about twenty minutes about it, but direct action, you do, well,

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Speaker 3: it's definitely part of it. So that made you U

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Speaker 3: define that. Yeah. Yeah. So that so what direct action

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Speaker 3: really means is instead of just you know, protesting or

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Speaker 3: lobbying in the halls of Congress or you know, sending

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Speaker 3: stuff out to your membership, it means like blockading roads. Uh,

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Speaker 3: it means tearing up, uh, surveying spikes that they use.

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Speaker 5: Potentially it being sabotaging equipment.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, sabotage equipment, putting sand in gas. There's a hole.

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Speaker 3: One of the founders of Earth First, this guy Dave

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Speaker 3: Foreman published a book called Ecotage, which was all these

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Speaker 3: different ways in which you can do uh economic sabotage,

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Speaker 3: which and I go into this fair amount in the

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Speaker 3: in the podcast. The most controversial of all these is

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Speaker 3: tree spiking. And what tree spiking is well, start off

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Speaker 3: as and it evolved a little bit, but you basically

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Speaker 3: take a big nail and you bang it into a tree.

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Speaker 3: And that so people when they're using saws, it just

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Speaker 3: shatters the saw and it can be very dangerous. It's

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Speaker 3: to fly and right exactly. But but what Earth First

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Speaker 3: would do is they would go into like a grove

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Speaker 3: and this is not northern California, but this is you know, wherever.

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Speaker 3: They would do this and sometimes they would circle where

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Speaker 3: they were, uh, sometimes they would identify the grove like that.

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Speaker 3: The idea wasn't to hurt people. The idea was to

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Speaker 3: stop them from using their saws on the on this wood.

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Speaker 3: And you know what's what's funny is that it's not

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Speaker 3: really funny. But uh, you know, in my research, there's

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Speaker 3: only one real known incident that I could find. And

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Speaker 3: this is also like looking at senators and congressmen who've

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Speaker 3: tried to find more stuff about tree spiking and them

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Speaker 3: not being able to turn things up either. Was one

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Speaker 3: guy in a mill in northern California who he was

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Speaker 3: one of the guys who fed the logs to be cut,

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Speaker 3: and it hit a spike and the saw basically kind

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Speaker 3: of exploded and nearly killed him. And then there was

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Speaker 3: a lot of Initially it was like his earth first,

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Speaker 3: of his earth first, and it turned out although this

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Speaker 3: guy was in charge, they're fairly sure it was actually

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Speaker 3: this kind of curmudgeonly guy who didn't like the fact

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Speaker 3: that they were sawing down trees that were in his view,

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Speaker 3: so he did have to try and stop them. So

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Speaker 3: that's really the only time that there's been like a

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Speaker 3: real serious injury that results from tree spiking.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's just continue on that a little bit. Because

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Speaker 2: of that one case, as we hear in Rip Curren

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Speaker 2: season two, was used to what was used as the

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Speaker 2: argument against tree spiking and what was labeled as eco

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Speaker 2: terrorism at the time, right because it was so dangerous

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Speaker 2: because people may die, and he was maimed. It was

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Speaker 2: a you know, not some small incident that occurred, but

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Speaker 2: it definitely the argument then seemed to expand out as

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Speaker 2: though this tree spiking thing had killed many people, or

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Speaker 2: that was stated publicly even though it wasn't provable.

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Speaker 5: All they need is one inciting event to then balloon

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Speaker 5: into this is you know, the precedents, and then it

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Speaker 5: gives them kind of talking points to go after a

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Speaker 5: larger movement.

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Speaker 4: Right, the timber war has become an information.

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Speaker 3: War, right, I mean even recently. I've got a clip

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Speaker 3: and I'm trying to remember who the congressman was, but

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Speaker 3: he's from the Pacific Northwest or maybe Idaho. Anyway, he's

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Speaker 3: talking about they wanted to increase the the criminal penalties

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Speaker 3: for tree spiking, and so this guy in this mill,

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Speaker 3: same with George Alexander. So he's kind of given the

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Speaker 3: speech on the floor and he says and then George

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Speaker 3: Alexander and this happened to him, and then all these

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Speaker 3: other people have been killed or maimed or whatever. It's like, well,

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Speaker 3: can you name like one other person, you know, because

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Speaker 3: it's always the same guy. It's always George Alexander and

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Speaker 3: all these other guys. But I think it was Larry Craig,

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Speaker 3: who used to be a Senator, got in touch with

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Speaker 3: I don't know if it's a Department of the Interior

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Speaker 3: or one of the departments that said, can you give

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Speaker 3: me a list of everybody who's been harmed or killed

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Speaker 3: by tree spiking? And the only thing he got back

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Speaker 3: was George Alexander.

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Speaker 4: So so it was bupkiss. But it does, I think

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Speaker 4: show us a little bit more about how the media

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Speaker 4: was treating this. Right, people loved, people love a convenient

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Speaker 4: throwaway phrase like eco terrorism, right or now tree spiking?

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Speaker 4: At this point, could you tell us a little bit

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Speaker 4: more as we're setting the stage here about how the

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Speaker 4: local everyday folks in California felt about environmentalism. They're reading

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Speaker 4: the news. Do they think that Earth First is a

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Speaker 4: straight up eco terrorism outfit? Do they agree with them?

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Speaker 3: Like? How is?

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Speaker 4: What's the temperature of the room there around the redwoods?

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Speaker 3: So that's an interesting question. So at that time, and

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Speaker 3: I talked to a guy, well, I talked to a

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Speaker 3: few people who had sort of grown up there, and

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Speaker 3: they said there was really there's two sort of major

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Speaker 3: factions in northern California. One was these sort of generational

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Speaker 3: families of timber workers. The other were these sort of

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Speaker 3: back to the land hippies who'd moved up there. So

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Speaker 3: you really had you know, in schools they said, what

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Speaker 3: do we call It's like the rednecks and the hippies,

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Speaker 3: you know, those are the two groups. And so you

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Speaker 3: have these timber families.

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Speaker 5: Device of all of this, then, I guess.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, So you had these timber families who obviously

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Speaker 3: saw them as a threat and as terrorists.

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Speaker 5: And as a threat to their livelihood and their families

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Speaker 5: legacy or whatever it might be. If this is multi generational,

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Speaker 5: like they've got skin in the game in that exactly.

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Speaker 3: And I think there was a sense that Earth First

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Speaker 3: was sort of questioning the morality or nobility of timber

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Speaker 3: work in general, so that it kind of felt very

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Speaker 3: personal to some people, like an attack identity, right right,

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Speaker 3: It's like what you what your family for generations has

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Speaker 3: done is sort of immoral by by cutting these you know,

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Speaker 3: majestic trees. And then that, you know, the hippie families

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Speaker 3: were more likely to be you know, sympathetic to Earth First.

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Speaker 3: It's just a very it's a very complicated time, you know.

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Speaker 3: And this is at a time when timber is sort

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Speaker 3: of descending importance in the economy and marijuana is ascending

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Speaker 3: as like a big export crop up there.

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Speaker 5: Is Humboldt County.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's Humboldy. Yeah, it's weeah yeah, so anonymous, Yeah, exactly, Humboldt.

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Speaker 3: So yeah. So it was really it was kind of

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Speaker 3: a mixed a mixed feeling. You know, the timber companies themselves,

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Speaker 3: you know, sort of try to accentuate the potential for

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Speaker 3: violence from Earth First, and you know, Earth First had

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Speaker 3: to take several steps, including publicly renouncing tree spiking, which

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Speaker 3: was very controversial within Earth First, to try and prove like,

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Speaker 3: we're not we're not going after you know, the individual

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Speaker 3: timber worker, like these small timber companies that are contractors

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Speaker 3: or whatever. We're really going over these corporate people like

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Speaker 3: Charles Hurwitz, who's this guy from Texas, Like wouldn't be

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Speaker 3: able to identify or redwood if you you know, if

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Speaker 3: you pointed him at one and it's just these people,

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Speaker 3: it's you know, it's craven greed, you know, essentially, especially

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Speaker 3: in Hurwitz's case, I mean, he's just trying to make

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Speaker 3: money and all he sees are trees, is like a

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Speaker 3: monetary asset. And that's so sort of the opposite of

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Speaker 3: the Earth First idea, which is that we have to

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Speaker 3: preserve this, this is our natural heritage, right.

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Speaker 2: And just it was really there, Toby. Yeah, because the

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Speaker 2: concept of spiking trees, and we kind of talked about

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Speaker 2: it already, but the concept of doing that is to

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Speaker 2: destroy equipment, right, sabotage of equipment, which would cost the

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Speaker 2: company a lot of money, which would probably cause them

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Speaker 2: to stop cutting in that area at least temporarily if

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Speaker 2: not long term.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: So it does seem like quite a non violent tactic

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Speaker 2: until you do have one person that's hurt. But it

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Speaker 2: just makes so much sense in my mind, at least

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Speaker 2: to spike trees to break the chains on chainsaws so

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Speaker 2: that that company cannot continue to function. And ultimately, if

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Speaker 2: the company is your enemy, as in Earth First case,

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Speaker 2: it would be really weird for a group who is

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Speaker 2: you know, who is fighting those companies to say, don't

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Speaker 2: do that thing. That is very that seems to be

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Speaker 2: very effective.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think, you know, I talked to some

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Speaker 3: Earth First people who, you know, we're really angry about that,

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Speaker 3: and what what they basically said is it has been nonviolent.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's only one person you can point to.

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Speaker 3: That's why we let them know when we do it.

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Speaker 3: The idea is it's gonna it's just gonna make a

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Speaker 3: cost more. You know, you're going to have to go

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Speaker 3: in with like metal detectors and try and find the

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Speaker 3: spikes in the trees and remove them. It's just it

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Speaker 3: takes time, it takes manpower. It's there's no easy way

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Speaker 3: to do it. And then they got the idea of

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Speaker 3: using ceramic spikes be detected by metal detectors. So it's

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Speaker 3: really you know, they give the idea was we give

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Speaker 3: them enough information to not hurt their workers, right Like,

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Speaker 3: if they're sitting there workers out there with saws in

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Speaker 3: an area that we've spiked, that's them knowingly putting their

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Speaker 3: their workers in danger. You're not doing it, We're not

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Speaker 3: doing it secretly. Now it's the Timber company. Now it's

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Speaker 3: the evil guys from the Captain Planet episodes who are

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Speaker 3: at fault for endangering their workers because they had the information.

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Speaker 3: And this is obviously not a unique perspective. I think

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Speaker 3: this is something all of us can universally understand the

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Speaker 3: logic of. However, it seems that things begin to quickly escalate.

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Speaker 3: Right There's as as you already said, there's a deep division,

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Speaker 3: there's factionalism in northern California. There is a.

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Speaker 4: Narrative competition in conversation and the zeitgeist and the media

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Speaker 4: about who can be considered the bad or the good guys,

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Speaker 4: and we see we see actions escalate at an increasingly

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Speaker 4: dangerous pace. Now, we teased it a bit at the top.

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Speaker 4: We talked a little bit about the tragic bizarre, like

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Speaker 4: the heartbreaking attack on Judy Barry and her associate. Could

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Speaker 4: you tell us a little bit more about the I

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Speaker 4: have so many questions, folks. You're going to have to

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Speaker 4: listen to rip her At season two in full to

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Speaker 4: understand the depth of this story. But it's just astonishing

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Speaker 4: the way the bombing occurs and the way that the

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Speaker 4: investing negation goes. And then Falters, can you tell us

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Speaker 4: a little bit about the circumstances of the bombing and

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Speaker 4: a little bit more about the investigation.

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Speaker 3: Sure, at the time of the bombing, Earth Verse was

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Speaker 3: planning this thing called Redwood Summer, and the idea was

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Speaker 3: they were going to get lots of college students to

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Speaker 3: come up to the Redwoods to take place and protests,

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Speaker 3: direct actions just sort of you know, flood the zone

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Speaker 3: with people and they're sort of basing it on the

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Speaker 3: Freedom Summer Mississippi. It actually started off being like Mississippi

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Speaker 3: Summer in the Redwoods, I think. So anyway, the big plans,

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Speaker 3: and so they were actually down in Oakland to do

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Speaker 3: sort of a planning meeting with this group called Seeds

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Speaker 3: of Peace. But there's sort of this timeline, and maybe

389
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Speaker 3: it makes sense to stay up front that this pipe

390
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Speaker 3: bomb was on a timer. So there was a watch

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Speaker 3: that could be set back almost to twelve hours, like

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Speaker 3: eleven hours and fifty nine minutes, and it would go

393
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Speaker 3: and it hit a certain place and it would let

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Speaker 3: loose this ball bearing, and the ball bearing would go

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Speaker 3: into this little circle where there's all these wires sticking out.

396
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Speaker 3: If connected two wires together, that would detonate the bomb.

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Speaker 3: So there's you know, there's a period of time in

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Speaker 3: which the bomb could have been placed in the car.

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Speaker 3: So she has a couple of meetings up in Mendocino County,

400
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Speaker 3: She goes down Oakland, has a meeting at this place

401
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Speaker 3: Seeds a Piece, and then she goes and stays the

402
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Speaker 3: night at this guy, Dave Kemnitzer's house with Dave and

403
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Speaker 3: his family. It wasn't a romantic thing. And so the

404
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Speaker 3: next morning, Darryl Turney comes over. They get in the

405
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Speaker 3: car and they're driving, and it's just before noon. She

406
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Speaker 3: goes to take a turn. You know, obviously the ball

407
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Speaker 3: bearing is loose now that the time the timers gone off,

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Speaker 3: and it detonates and you know, right in the street

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Speaker 3: in Oakland, right across the street from a high school.

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Speaker 3: So almost immediately, the FBI shows up on scene and

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Speaker 3: takes control of the scene. Because it's a bombing, so

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Speaker 3: it's usually the ATF will take control of those things,

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Speaker 3: but if it seems as though it might be terrorism,

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Speaker 3: that's when the FBI has jurisdiction, is my understanding. And

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Speaker 3: so the the FBI shows up really really fast, much

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Speaker 3: faster than you'd expect. And I think the reason for

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Speaker 3: that is that they had Judy and Darryl under surveillance

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Speaker 3: at the time.

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Speaker 4: On the list well yeah, professionalism.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so that that that seems very clear that that's

421
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Speaker 3: part of the case. But they show up and this guy,

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Speaker 3: Frank Doyle, who's uh, you know, an explosive experts for

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Speaker 3: the FBI, basically says, well, the bomb was on the

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Speaker 3: back seat, and if it's on the backseat, they would

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Speaker 3: have seen it, and they must have known about it.

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Speaker 3: So that kind of puts Judy and Darryl in the

427
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Speaker 3: frame as Okay, they knew they had a bottom in

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Speaker 3: the car and something happened it blew up. If you

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Speaker 3: actually take a look at pictures of the wreckage of

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Speaker 3: the car, it's pretty clear that it was underneath her

431
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Speaker 3: seat and just blew out the whole bottom of the

432
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 3: seat and it malfunctioned a little bit and hit beneath

433
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 3: the doors, the front doors. So it's just very strange

434
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 3: that he said this, but it does if it was

435
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 3: underneath the seat, it was very possible that Daryl and

436
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,239
Speaker 3: Judy wouldn't have known that it was there, right, So

437
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 3: for the first you know, certainly for the first forty

438
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 3: eight hours, and it takes a couple more weeks before

439
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 3: it's officially shut down. But you know they're going to

440
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 3: the press with you know, these two were the bombers.

441
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 3: They were bringing these explosives. We don't know what they

442
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 3: were going to do with them, but they're eco terrorists

443
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 3: and that's what terrorists do, is they blow stuff up.

444
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 3: And you know, Judy is you know, in the hospital,

445
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 3: like don't I don't know if they ever thought she

446
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 3: was actually gonna die, but she was in immense amounts

447
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 3: of pain, was for a while unable to like give

448
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 3: a statement. And then Darryl was arrested. Basically he got

449
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 3: stitched up and they took him to jail, questioned them

450
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 3: and then and then arrested them. But they were never charged,

451
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 3: right they It sort of came out quickly that they

452
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 3: really couldn't have done it. There was some sort of

453
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 3: blind alleys that the FBI went down about trying to

454
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 3: match nails and and things like this.

455
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 5: Well, I was gonna ask, is there any evidence seems

456
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,719
Speaker 5: like a really particular type of detonating device. I've never

457
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 5: heard of this ball bearing thing before, Not that I'm

458
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 5: like a bomb expert, but is there evidence of Earth

459
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,719
Speaker 5: First using these types of devices?

460
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 3: No, they don't use uh, Earth Vers hasn't really used

461
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 3: explosives as far as I know, and they this is

462
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 3: one of those things that's like how far afield do

463
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 3: you go? But but like a year before in Arizona,

464
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 3: they basically set up this guy, Dave Foreman, who's a

465
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 3: founder of Earth First, And what they were trying to

466
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 3: get to do is they had a ATBI had a

467
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 3: provocateur in this little group of eco terrorists. Two of

468
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 3: them weren't even earth first, and the other one was

469
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 3: sort of semi earth first, and then there was the provocateur.

470
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 3: And then Dave Foreman, the only real earth first person,

471
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 3: gave them some money, which is how he got kind

472
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 3: of tied into it. But they wanted to use explosives

473
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 3: to blow up some towers that were holding power lines,

474
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 3: and they were like, you know, we don't want to

475
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 3: do explosives, and they ended up using a torch and

476
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 3: got arrested. But so explosives were like, you know, it's

477
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 3: coded for terrorism, right, It's like, if you're sitting explosives,

478
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 3: you're a terrorist. You know, if you're using a torch,

479
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 3: maybe it's something a little different.

480
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 2: I don't want to spoil too much in the show,

481
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 2: but Toby, can you just go into a little bit

482
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 2: about how we know that that particular gentleman who infiltrated

483
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 2: those groups, how we know what he was doing because

484
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 2: of that recording?

485
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, there recording. So they recorded they had all

486
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 3: this stuff. I mean they were there were tapping lines,

487
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 3: they were wearing wires, all this stuff. But at one

488
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 3: point the provocateurs like wearing a wire and he goes

489
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,719
Speaker 3: in because he's trying to get some money from Dave Foreman,

490
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 3: and they want to document it. And then he forgets

491
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 3: to flick it off, and then they go I think

492
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 3: they made a Burger King parking lot. And they're like

493
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 3: chatting about what's going on, and he's like it's kind

494
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 3: of interesting. Like he's saying, like these people don't have anything.

495
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 3: This money would have met everything for him, Like they

496
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 3: don't have any money, but they're really devoted and all

497
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 3: this stuff, and and he's kind of talks about how

498
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 3: they're At one point he says, you know, Dave Foreman's

499
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 3: not the guy who's actually doing anything, but he's the

500
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 3: guy we kind of have to get right to send

501
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 3: a message. And then he's like, oh, this is still on,

502
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 3: just like it's just and then they find it while

503
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,239
Speaker 3: they're going through uh discovery, they're they're going through all

504
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 3: these and they're like, oh my god, they not only

505
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 3: forgot to turn it off, but they never got rid

506
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 3: of it. So it's just like right there, it's really

507
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 3: so it's in the it's in the podcast, I mean

508
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 3: the recordings out there.

509
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I've got to ask you about this part

510
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 4: the well, not even me, our audience is going to

511
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 4: want to know about. Uh, the line you said a

512
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 4: little bit earlier that we we've teased here. The FBI

513
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 4: shows up in the wake of the bobbing at an

514
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 4: extraordinarily quick time, which shows, uh, shows you, as our investigator,

515
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 4: that there was probably some monitoring. Uh. Could you talk

516
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 4: to us just a little bit for everybody in the

517
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 4: audience who hasn't heard of this before, you talk to

518
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 4: us a little bit about pe intel pro and why

519
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 4: the FBI or federal agencies would be monitoring people who

520
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 4: want to save trees.

521
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 3: Right. So, Cointelpro was a program. You know, it's mostly

522
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 3: active during the sixties. It was officially ended I believe

523
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 3: in seventy one, right, right exactly. I'll get to that

524
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 3: just a second. But the idea was that they were

525
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 3: going to you know, disrupt, undermine, you know, try and

526
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 3: break up what we're considered extremist groups. And in the

527
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 3: FBI's interpretation, that was mostly on the liberal or radical

528
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 3: or liberal side, like the KKK was in there. They'd

529
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 3: go after the KKK if the KKK did some specific crime,

530
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 3: but on the radical side just sort of existing turned

531
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 3: out to be enough for the FBI to kind of

532
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 3: run these things on you.

533
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 4: So it was pitched in civil rights for instance.

534
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 3: Get civil rights. You know, the Black Panthers were a big,

535
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 3: big target, and one of the things they would do

536
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 3: is they get infil traders and just create this sense

537
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 3: of paranoia where like the even like these small groups,

538
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 3: Like in the first season of Rip Current, I did

539
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 3: a thing looking at a group called Tribal Thumb, which

540
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 3: was tiny, you know, it was probably twenty people at

541
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 3: its peak, and at least two of them were infiltrators

542
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 3: from the FBI. You know, so they kind of created

543
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 3: this sense of paranoia. They would start, you know, clashes.

544
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 3: I think they probably contributed to, you know, some death

545
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 3: sort of indirectly, but they really get blamed for the

546
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 3: death of Fred Hampton, which was a sort of joint

547
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 3: FBI Chicago Police Department sort of raid on this guy

548
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 3: Fred Hampton, who I think was twenty or twenty one

549
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 3: at the time, but was sort of really up and

550
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 3: coming leader of the Black Panthers, and you know, not

551
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 3: of not sort of the perceived violence side of the

552
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 3: Black Panthers, but really the sort of you know, helping

553
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 3: the social school.

554
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 2: Exactly things like this is an incredible speaker, right. That

555
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 2: was why he was considered to be dangerous because he

556
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 2: could bring He was attempting to bring people together from

557
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 2: different factions of a somewhat splintered movement, and that was

558
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 2: speakers that are connector ye.

559
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 3: So yeah, so I you know that was a co

560
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 3: intel program, as it officially was, right, And then in

561
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy one, during the Ali Frasier fight in Madison Square, Garden,

562
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 3: I think there was a break in at this FBI

563
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 3: office in Media, Pennsylvania and they got these they stole

564
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 3: these files that included things that revealed co Intel pro

565
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 3: And so it was officially shut down I think in

566
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 3: seventy three, but you can shut it down in name,

567
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 3: but the sort of techniques are still there. So rip Current,

568
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 3: the first season Recurrent takes place in seventy five. Co

569
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 3: Intel protes style stuff is definitely going on then, and

570
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,720
Speaker 3: so the question becomes like how far does it keep going?

571
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 3: And then at what point is it co intel pro

572
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 3: and how what point is it just the way the

573
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 3: FBI does things. But so one of the theory is

574
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 3: the theory that you know, Judy and Darryl and sort

575
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 3: of their supporters had was that they were the victims

576
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 3: of a co intel pro style operation, and that, you know,

577
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 3: to really simplify it, that that the FBI and the

578
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 3: timber industry had kind of worked together to try to

579
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 3: assassinate Judy Barry.

580
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 4: And took direct action of their own right exactly.

581
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 3: So the thing about this case, without getting too into

582
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:06,359
Speaker 3: the weeds, is that there's no real physical evidence. You know,

583
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 3: with a bomb, a lot of that physical evidence just

584
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,760
Speaker 3: gets blown up. There was a thing called the Lord's

585
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 3: Adventure Letter, which was a letter that was sent anonymously

586
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 3: to a journalist named Mike Janella, who I interviewed at

587
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 3: length for this taking credit for the bombing and another bombing,

588
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 3: and had all this information that was in there that

589
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 3: made it fairly clear that this was actually the person.

590
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 3: But then it's like littered with all this like weird

591
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 3: Bible stuff like and like anti abortion stuff, and it's

592
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 3: clear they're trying to point to this one guy Staley,

593
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 3: who was a former football player, big strapping guy who

594
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,479
Speaker 3: was like an anti abortion zealot who they'd gotten into

595
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 3: kind of a confrontation with, but it most likely was

596
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 3: not him, and that this was just sort of a

597
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 3: way of trying to obscure, you know, send people off

598
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 3: on the wrong track. But what was weird is that

599
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 3: so this thing comes, you know, it's always weird for journalists.

600
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 3: It's like, do I turn this over to law enforcement?

601
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 3: Like that's not really our job, but it's like, well,

602
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 3: this seems pretty important. Turn it over to the FBI.

603
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 3: The FBI takes it, does whatever they're gonna do with it,

604
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 3: returns it to Mike's newspaper, which is the Santa Rosa

605
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,439
Speaker 3: Press Democrat, which was run by the New York Times

606
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 3: at the time, and they promptly lose it, right, so

607
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,359
Speaker 3: the one piece of physical evidence just gets lost. So

608
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 3: they really lost Toby, Like we never found lost. Well,

609
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 3: nobody knows. I mean I talked to Mike, and Mike

610
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 3: who you know. I think he's a straight shooter, which

611
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 3: is like, I don't know what happened, you know, I

612
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 3: don't think the New York Times was also in cahoots

613
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 3: with the behind the timber industries. But somehow it's gone.

614
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 3: Any chance that you had to do these like new

615
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 3: DNA techniques on it, that's gone too. So the reality

616
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 3: is that it'll probably never be solved. At this point

617
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 3: unless somebody confesses. And so there are these theories that

618
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 3: are kind of built on these connections, these weird connections.

619
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 3: And I can give you an example of one, which

620
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 3: is that the guy Frank Doyle, the FBI agent who

621
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 3: showed up at the scene of the of the bombing,

622
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 3: he had a month earlier run a bomb school to

623
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 3: train law enforcement in how to investigate bomb related crimes

624
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 3: up in northern California on land that was donated by

625
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:49,280
Speaker 3: Louisiana Pacific, which was another of the lumber companies that

626
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 3: that earth Verst was was having a thing with. And

627
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 3: the Louisiana's Pacific guy who ran security from them, was

628
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:02,760
Speaker 3: providing security for the bomb school, and he was friends

629
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 3: with Frank Doyle. So and then a bunch of the agents,

630
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 3: uh who are investig who are there on the scene

631
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,919
Speaker 3: had actually been at that bomb school. So it's just

632
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 3: just just.

633
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 5: Presumably they're they're teaching them at the inner workings of

634
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 5: various types of explosives and detonating devices first engineer and disarment,

635
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 5: and also they would know how to make them.

636
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, learning how to stop something is very similar to

637
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 4: learning how to create it.

638
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 2: See, this was the final exam of that course. That's

639
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:33,800
Speaker 2: what that's what happened.

640
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what he That's what he said. That's what

641
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 3: they That's what Doyle said to one of the guys

642
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 3: who's been in the classes, like, well, here's your final exam.

643
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 3: But the thing is is that that's not the only

644
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 3: Like you hear that and you're like, wow, that's pretty damning.

645
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 3: But then there's there's several other uh, you know, suspects

646
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 3: or scenarios that are equally you know, sort of the

647
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 3: the optics of it are equally strong.

648
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, if not compelling, there there are multiple scenarios that

649
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 4: make you think, right, oh yeah.

650
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 2: Can we just quickly talk about the Yellow Ribbon movement

651
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 2: and just the general sentiment and how vitriolic some of

652
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 2: the talk was getting around this time.

653
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the Yellow Ribbon movement was sort of a

654
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 3: local group that kind of grew out of this wise

655
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 3: Use movement, which was essentially sort of anti environmental that

656
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 3: it's like nature is there for our enjoyment, and not

657
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 3: in terms of like gazing at trees, but like taking

658
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 3: your ATVs and like going on races and you know,

659
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 3: doing whatever. Right you should not nothing should be off

660
00:39:54,480 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 3: limits basically. So the Yellow Ribbon movement was pro probably

661
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 3: funded by timber corporations, but they were locally run by

662
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:13,879
Speaker 3: this woman named Candy Boak, and so they they were

663
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 3: adamantly opposed to earth First and would show up sometimes

664
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 3: the demonstrations and taunt Earth First people. And they were

665
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 3: just one of many groups. There's a group called the Stompers,

666
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 3: which is a little obscure who they were. I think

667
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 3: they may have been sort of white supremacist thugs, but

668
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:41,280
Speaker 3: they sent death threats, put out you know, quote unquote bounties.

669
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 3: It's like not clear like if they were actually gonna

670
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 3: get paid for this stuff. There's another group called the

671
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 3: Sahara Club, which was a take on the Sierra Club,

672
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 3: which was run by a couple of off road motorcycle guys

673
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 3: who again were like they had in their newsletter like

674
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,959
Speaker 3: we're we're looking for guys over six feet two hundred

675
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,359
Speaker 3: and fifty pounds to like go up, you know, we'll

676
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 3: provide the baseball bats stuff like that. So it was

677
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 3: a dangerous, you know, what they were doing was dangerous,

678
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 3: like hundred percent. You know. It was like they were

679
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 3: doing their protests and.

680
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 5: They forget that Oregon like you think of it as

681
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 5: this bastion of liberalism and all that, but like the

682
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 5: rural parts of Oregon have always been like hotbeds of

683
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 5: white supremacist activity in this kind of stuff.

684
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 3: Of course, they were actively recruiting in the in the

685
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 3: timber industry because all these people were being laid off,

686
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 3: there was economic distress, and it's just overwhelmingly white. So

687
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 3: these white supremacist groups saw this as fertile territory. And

688
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 3: that's actually another theory of the crime.

689
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 4: I think that could be part of the part of

690
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 4: the inspiration for rip current three. To be honest with you,

691
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 4: I mean, because you know, to Nole's point, a lot

692
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 4: of people aren't aware that Oregon in particular is the

693
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:13,240
Speaker 4: only state that never codified chattel slavery in the United

694
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,240
Speaker 4: States because of the racism, right.

695
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 5: Founded as a white paradise.

696
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 4: And to your point here, it naturally makes sense that

697
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 4: violence groups like supremacist groups or other domestic terror groups

698
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 4: would prey on the people who have gotten the short

699
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 4: end of the stick in an industry.

700
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: Right.

701
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 4: We see this later with stuff like the failure of

702
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 4: the automotive industry. To be quite honest, But then is

703
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 4: it possible, Toby, that at some point in this yellow

704
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,800
Speaker 4: ribbon stuff and the stompers and so on, it's possible

705
00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 4: that a proxy representative of a big unnamed timber company

706
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:04,720
Speaker 4: might have just had a meeting and said, hey, don't worry,

707
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:07,240
Speaker 4: we can get you the baseball bats.

708
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 3: I think it's likely that that. It's not just possible,

709
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 3: it's likely. Yeah, I mean, I don't. I'm not one

710
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 3: hundred percent sure about this. I don't, but there was,

711
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 3: you know, there there was definitely communication between the groups,

712
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,840
Speaker 3: and there was definitely encouragement. I think it was specific.

713
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 3: Lumber hired a marketing firm called Hilen Knowlton that was

714
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 3: putting out fake press releases that were supposed to be

715
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 3: from Earth First to make it sound like they were

716
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 3: more violent than they were. But they did things like

717
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 3: spelled Darryl Turney's name wrong and just you know, just

718
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 3: sloppy work.

719
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 2: Don't We have a whole episode on Hill and Nolan.

720
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 4: There was that, Yes, Okay, yes, with Narayah and uh

721
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 4: later with the the war for Iraq, the propaganda there,

722
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 4: that's what we called it. Yeah, or Toby, thank you

723
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 4: so much for mentioning kill and Milton do you imagine

724
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:06,280
Speaker 4: they are huge fans of my show.

725
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 3: Friends of the show.

726
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 5: This is yellow, this yellow ribmed movement and sentiment. I

727
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 5: think it's kind of still around today in the form

728
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 5: of like some more union or like workers write scrups

729
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 5: called Timber Unity, I think is one that is all

730
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 5: about fighting legislation aimed at addressing climate change that would potentially,

731
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 5: you know, put timber workers out of work.

732
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 3: Evolution.

733
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 4: I'm against it.

734
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 3: That, uh Sar.

735
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 4: We've been freestyling songs recently on the show, Toby. We also,

736
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 4: first off, can't thank you enough for the phenomenal work

737
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,399
Speaker 4: that you've been doing, not just on RIP Current season two,

738
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 4: but we're talking a little bit off air RIP Current

739
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 4: season one. We should have had you back on for

740
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 4: that one as well. And we've got to ask one

741
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 4: thing here as as you went through the course of

742
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 4: this investigation, and the show is available to listen to

743
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 4: now anywhere you find your favorite podcast, what do we

744
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 4: hope people take away from RIP Current Season two?

745
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I started it off in that I

746
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,760
Speaker 3: wanted to tell an inspirational story about somebody who really

747
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 3: like kind of put it on the line to quote

748
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 3: unquote save the environment, right and what I ended up

749
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:31,240
Speaker 3: finding out was that the sort of fight over the cause,

750
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 3: like who caused the bomb that almost killed her, like

751
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 3: who planneted, it kind of overshadows what she actually did. So,

752
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 3: you know, in the podcast, I was trying to sort

753
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 3: of spotlight both, you know, both both her sort of

754
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 3: activity and achievements, which were kind of mixed, to be honest,

755
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 3: and then also this mystery around who tried to kill her.

756
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,919
Speaker 3: But I do think I'd like people to walk away

757
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 3: and say, you know, a small group of committed people

758
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 3: can make a big difference, even when they're confronting these

759
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 3: huge corporations and a lot of capital, And I think

760
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 3: that's that was what I kind of came in hoping

761
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 3: that would be I kind of, you know, found the

762
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 3: reality around her legacy is a little more complicated, but

763
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 3: that would be the takeaway that I hope in the end,

764
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 3: it's like all this stuff is sort of a distraction

765
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 3: from the fact that a small group of really committed

766
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 3: people ended up with. You know, the final outcome of

767
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 3: trying to say the Redwoods is the government spent an

768
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 3: amazing like hundreds of millions of dollars to save a

769
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,800
Speaker 3: place called the Headwaters for Us, which was the largest

770
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,760
Speaker 3: sort of grove of old growth redwoods that was still

771
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 3: intact on Pacific lumber Land. And they save that, they

772
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 3: saved some stuff around it. So there's like an actual,

773
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 3: like physical location that you can go to and it's big,

774
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 3: that Judy and others say, and so they were able

775
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 3: to have a concrete win when this was all over.

776
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 3: I believe she may have already passed by the time

777
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 3: it was finalized, but I think she understood the direction

778
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 3: it was headed. So I guess that's a takeaway for me.

779
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 5: I had one last tiny little thing, you know, and

780
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,439
Speaker 5: watching one battle after another, which I enjoyed quite a lot,

781
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:22,359
Speaker 5: it occurred to me that, like the group that sort

782
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,919
Speaker 5: of portrayed in that sort of weather underground kind of

783
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,760
Speaker 5: you know, freedom fighting group, it's dealing with immigration enforcement

784
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 5: and various things, there really isn't an analog to that

785
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 5: in real life anymore. Nor do I see, as you

786
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 5: pointed out earlier, this analog to Earth First, do you

787
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 5: have a sense of why that is or is it

788
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 5: because of the Internet, is because if things are more

789
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 5: you know, cyber oriented now, like why or do we

790
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 5: not see this kind of direct action as much, you

791
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:53,760
Speaker 5: know in modern times.

792
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 3: You know, I honestly I don't know. I would love

793
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 3: to have the answer to that. You know, Earth First,

794
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,399
Speaker 3: like the people without Earth Verst was not extreme enough,

795
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 3: branched off. Some of them were old Earth First members

796
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 3: to become the Earth Liberation Front, and they do like

797
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 3: real sabotage, burning things down, all that kind of stuff.

798
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 3: But they're even smaller, right, Gretamberg Thumbird putting myself, She's

799
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 3: kind of done her thing. But that's all sort of

800
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 3: you know, bring attention to it or whatever. Stream protest

801
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 3: not exactly direct action, right right. It seems like the

802
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 3: people who really stop in like the flow of oil,

803
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 3: are mostly trying to like it's geopolitical stuff, not not

804
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,359
Speaker 3: citizen action. It's interesting that you bring up that movie though,

805
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,759
Speaker 3: because people said, like several people I talk to you said,

806
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 3: if you want to understand Humboldt Mendocino at that time,

807
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 3: you got to read Vineland By. I was like, oh,

808
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 3: you know, if you can best be described through a

809
00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 3: Pinchion novel, there must have been some weird stuff for sure.

810
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

811
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:03,919
Speaker 2: Yeah.

812
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 5: One thing that I took away from that like that

813
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 5: I'll never forget is there's this moment where there's a

814
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,800
Speaker 5: protest going on and they lead one of the people

815
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 5: with the government forces says, call in Eddie van Halen,

816
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 5: and a dude in a van Halen t shirt and

817
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 5: a mask comes out, throws them all atop cocktail and

818
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 5: it gives them the excuse they need to like move

819
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:21,240
Speaker 5: in and you know, escalat.

820
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,359
Speaker 2: This is just a reminder everyone that the podcast Rip

821
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:32,760
Speaker 2: Current in both seasons is an investigative journalism pursuit, and

822
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 2: Toby is actually out there talking to individuals. He's you know,

823
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:38,840
Speaker 2: this isn't just like research or watching a documentary or

824
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 2: reading a book and that stuff. He's out there talking

825
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 2: to people. And I just wonder, Toby, how much pushback

826
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 2: you encountered when attempting, you know, to find an interviewee

827
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 2: or somebody that you could speak to just along your journey.

828
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 2: And then who is the closest person to Judy Berry

829
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 2: and the actual bombing that you got to speak with.

830
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 3: Well, it's one in the same person describes both those things.

831
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 3: Darryl Cherney, who was in the passenger seat I finally

832
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 3: did end up talking to, but it took I mean

833
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 3: I talked to him two weeks ago two and a

834
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 3: half weeks ago, so I had already written all the

835
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 3: scripts and ten of the episodes were out before he

836
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 3: finally said he would do an interview with me. So

837
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 3: I did an interview with it. I actually did over

838
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 3: two days. I talked to him for about three and

839
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 3: a half hours, and there will be a bonus episode

840
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,320
Speaker 3: that kind of cuts it down, like a lot of

841
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 3: this stuff had already been covered in the main podcast,

842
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 3: But we talked. I talked to him about his theory

843
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 3: of the crime, and talked to him about some of

844
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 3: his experience during the day of the bombing. But he

845
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 3: was a tough one. I mean, there's really it's still raw, man.

846
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 3: It's like thirty five years later and people still I mean,

847
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 3: the whole thing with him and me was he knew

848
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,839
Speaker 3: I was going to talk to people who thought that

849
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 3: Judy Barry's ex husband is responsible for this, and there's

850
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 3: a whole other series of reasons why he is a

851
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:12,479
Speaker 3: good candidate, although again there's no evidence, so you know, uh,

852
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 3: there's nothing to really tie him to it. But once

853
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 3: he heard that he was, he did not want to

854
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 3: talk to me, but we kept in touch. You know,

855
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 3: I'd send him emails. I went out to California. I said,

856
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 3: I'm happy to meet up for a coffee or a

857
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 3: beer and just chat, like off the record. We didn't

858
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 3: do it, but you know, it's one of those things

859
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 3: where you just keep lines of communication open and it

860
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 3: eventually at like as they say in British soccer at

861
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 3: the death h it happened. So that was really interesting.

862
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:47,840
Speaker 3: It was interesting to talk to him, But I talked to,

863
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 3: you know, people who who knew her from too, different levels,

864
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 3: from different walks of life, an old Earth first guy.

865
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 3: Some journalists anew her stuff like that she's a She's

866
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,799
Speaker 3: a very interesting and complicated person, but I think you

867
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 3: kind of have to be in order to have sort

868
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 3: of the bravery and the sort of single mindedness to

869
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:12,320
Speaker 3: affect that kind of change.

870
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, and this is also you know, in addition to

871
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:21,439
Speaker 4: these exclusive interviews. I just can't thank you enough for

872
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 4: the phenomenal research. Right, this is a story, as we

873
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:29,359
Speaker 4: said at the top, that needs to be shared, that

874
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 4: needs to be told. As I think my colleagues and

875
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 4: I are referencing here throughout our conversation, it becomes increasingly relevant.

876
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 4: You know, we have other stuff to explore. These threads,

877
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 4: Like every part of this conversation is opening a door

878
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 4: that leads to something deeper, like the presence of direct

879
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 4: action groups. Have they really lessened in their frequency? If so,

880
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 4: why or they simply not being reported as often now right?

881
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 4: Or are they truly being tramped down upon by whatever

882
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 4: The descendant of co intel pro is right. The monitoring

883
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 4: abilities are just far, far beyond what Hoover imagined. He

884
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 4: probably fantasized about it, but he did get there.

885
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:24,239
Speaker 2: We didn't even talk about one of the groups that

886
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 2: you mentioned in the show, Toby the It's got one

887
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 2: of those names we always talk about. It seems so

888
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 2: innocuous and fine, but then you find out what they're

889
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 2: doing are what the hell it's the Ron Arnold thing

890
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 2: Center for Defense of Free Enterprise.

891
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, up there with.

892
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 4: Up there with people against Halla Burton Production.

893
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:56,320
Speaker 5: Yeah exactly, yeah, yeah, stop taking on free enterprise, y'all.

894
00:53:56,360 --> 00:54:00,360
Speaker 3: Come on, yeah, come on on, our old sort of

895
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:02,839
Speaker 3: those guys with like an Abraham Lincoln beard, you.

896
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 4: Know, yeah, you love to see it. Abraham Lincoln, by

897
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 4: the way, folks, one of the most famous amateur wrestlers

898
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,359
Speaker 4: in United States history. We did a couple of other

899
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:15,760
Speaker 4: things later he had a bad time at the theater,

900
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 4: but do support the arts.

901
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:20,720
Speaker 3: Toby.

902
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,240
Speaker 4: Again, we can't thank you enough.

903
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 1: Man.

904
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 4: We don't want to spoil the show because again not

905
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:32,479
Speaker 4: just not just the the exclusive interviews, but I would

906
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 4: say even more importantly, the research, the depth of which

907
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:40,800
Speaker 4: you to which you go here is a true credit

908
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:45,920
Speaker 4: to your work and to I don't know, it's a

909
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 4: thing more people need to know about. So in addition

910
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 4: to that, we always like to end by asking where

911
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 4: can people learn more not just about your mission on

912
00:54:56,560 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 4: rip Current, but about your many other projects. And please,

913
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 4: can you do us a favor since we are friends,

914
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:06,279
Speaker 4: can you tell us a little bit about Failians?

915
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 3: Yeah? Okay, so I'm doing and I'm hoping that each

916
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 3: one of you will be on as a guest in

917
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 3: the near future. I've started doing a program called more

918
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 3: Like Ancient Failians, which is a look at It started

919
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:26,839
Speaker 3: off just looking at ancient Aliens and sort of you know,

920
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 3: laughing at the ridiculousness of the agent theorist and stuff

921
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:34,920
Speaker 3: we just talked about. I know, we just did an

922
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:39,880
Speaker 3: emergency podcast about that. But also what's crazy is that

923
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 3: there's all this really interesting history that they try and

924
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 3: explain away as you know that must have been aliens,

925
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:48,320
Speaker 3: but in fact it's like fascinating stuff. So we include

926
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 3: that and we have guests. You know, it's it's podcasters, skeptics,

927
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 3: a lot of comedians. Because the guy I do it with,

928
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 3: Brandon R. Reynolds, has a connection to that community. We've

929
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 3: had people who are experts on each and aliens come

930
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 3: and talk to us. That's it's always pretty interesting to

931
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:05,760
Speaker 3: hear their take on these things.

932
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 2: Have you guys have not got That's.

933
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:14,719
Speaker 5: I'll forever refer to them as the big guy with

934
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 5: the big for you.

935
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 3: We'll text of them. Yeah. So that's been fun. That's

936
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 3: been fun. So we got a bunch of episodes were

937
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:24,719
Speaker 3: actually uh coming up. We have John Hodgman's going to

938
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 3: be a guest for a judge.

939
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 5: He can to talk about what is it booking snake

940
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:31,719
Speaker 5: secret societies.

941
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 1: Yeah.

942
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:36,759
Speaker 4: Time he got the diamond medallion, the longer diamond medallion

943
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 4: for Delta Travel, the.

944
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 5: Must sought Diamond Medallion status. Check out his book. I

945
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:43,200
Speaker 5: think it's out in paperback now.

946
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 4: Well that's how you know, that's how you know we

947
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 4: made it. Well. Also, Toby, I can't speak for everyone

948
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:53,239
Speaker 4: but I would imagine we would all love to join

949
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 4: you on that show, and we hope that everybody joins

950
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 4: us and Toby on rip Her. Right.

951
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 5: Did we shout out with aliens recently when we were

952
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:06,360
Speaker 5: talking about I think we can get credit credit was due?

953
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 3: Yeah? I appreciate that. Well, it was.

954
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 4: It was a nice thing for us to say, because, honestly, Toby,

955
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:14,920
Speaker 4: we were all very personally bummed with the passage of

956
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 4: Von Danakin. Just a form uh, an inspiration for stuff

957
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:21,480
Speaker 4: they don't want you to know.

958
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 2: Right, guys, do we even mention rip currentpod dot com?

959
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:29,120
Speaker 4: We should mention rip currentpod dot com. Okay, let me

960
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 4: let me make contact camera. Everyone go to rip currentpod

961
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 4: dot com and.

962
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:35,439
Speaker 3: Good save Matt.

963
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 4: Okay, Uh, Toby, be safe out there, man. We'll talk

964
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 4: to you soon.

965
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:41,240
Speaker 3: Yeah. I appreciate it, guys.

966
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:46,920
Speaker 4: And there you have it, folks. The legendary friend of

967
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 4: the show, Toby Ball, just a phenomenal researcher. As we mentioned,

968
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 4: UH also brought us an exclusive story UH that you

969
00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 4: can hear in full. Get this right now, guys, what

970
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 4: a ride. I wasn't joking when I talked about the

971
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 4: Saturday Night Live rule. Have you guys heard about that.

972
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 4: It's the five Timers Club.

973
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, five Timers Club is a big deal. They

974
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 2: always do a sketch.

975
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 4: I think Toby might be the first one to reach

976
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:23,280
Speaker 4: five timers status on stuff they don't want you to know,

977
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:27,400
Speaker 4: which We support the mass as the Saturday Night Live

978
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 4: of podcast.

979
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 2: I think he and Payne Lindsay might be tied right now.

980
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:35,080
Speaker 4: Okay, oh yeah, okay, maybe we can maybe we can

981
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 4: have them both on for a double Dragon interview segment.

982
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:40,760
Speaker 5: Payne loves a sweet jacket.

983
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 4: He does, he does, and I'm really excited about his

984
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 4: appearance coming up on Conversate with our pal Killer Mike.

985
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:53,680
Speaker 4: Not to be missed. Folks, we hope you enjoyed this.

986
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 4: We hope you check out not just Rip Current, but

987
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 4: all of Toby's earlier work. In the meantime, we hope

988
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 4: you as the most important part of our show. Join us.

989
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:06,280
Speaker 4: You can find us on the internet. You can call

990
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 4: us on a telephone. You can always send us an email.

991
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 4: As a matter of fact, I owe some people some

992
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:12,920
Speaker 4: random facts.

993
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 5: People are asking for the random facts. You love to

994
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 5: see it. You can find us at the handle Conspiracy

995
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:22,520
Speaker 5: Stuff or Conspiracy Stuff Show, depending on your social media

996
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 5: platform of choice. You'll figure it out. But there's more

997
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 5: ways to get in touch with us, aren't there.

998
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 2: Oh yes, we have a phone number. It is one

999
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 2: eight three three std wy TK. It's a voicemail system.

1000
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 2: Give us a call, you'll talk to us, and if

1001
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 2: we use one of your voicemails, it will go on

1002
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 2: one of our listener mail episodes that you can find

1003
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 2: in our audio podcast wherever you might access that. Oh

1004
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 2: and you know, someddly we didn't talk about Guys Strange Arrivals,

1005
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 2: the other show that Toby created. It has a TV version.

1006
00:59:55,480 --> 01:00:00,040
Speaker 2: It does stars Demi Moore and Coleman Domingo Gonid.

1007
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 5: It star studying.

1008
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 2: Yes, it's really really cool. All right, If you want

1009
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 2: to email us, you can do that too.

1010
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:08,640
Speaker 4: We are This is one of the most exciting things

1011
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 4: for us, folks. We are the entities that read each

1012
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 4: piece of correspondence we receive. Be well aware, yet unafraid.

1013
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:18,320
Speaker 4: Sometimes the void writes back. So join us, not just

1014
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 4: on Netflix, not just on audio, but speak with us directly.

1015
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 4: Conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1016
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

1017
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:49,920
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1018
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:53,280
Speaker 2: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.