1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:01,920 Speaker 1: This Day in History Class is a production of I 2 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hello and welcome to This Day in History Class, 3 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: a history podcast more popular than the Beatles, I'm Gay, Bluesier, 4 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 1: and today we're looking at one of the most explosive 5 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: and least expected pop culture scandals of the twentieth century, 6 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 1: the time when John Lennon accidentally went to war with 7 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: the Bible bell. The day was March fourth, nineteen sixty six. 8 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: In a personality profile about John Lennon, the musician was 9 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: quoted as saying the Beatles were more popular than Jesus. 10 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: The interview had been conducted by Maureen Cleave, a reporter 11 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: and close friend of John Lennon, who had interviewed the 12 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: Beatles before The piece was published in the day's edition 13 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: of the London Evening Standard. It was titled how does 14 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: a Beatle Live? John Lennon Lives like This. The point 15 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: of the profile was to give readers a better look 16 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 1: at who Lenin was off the stage and in his 17 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: personal life. He would later go on to say that 18 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: his friendship with Cleave had led him to be a 19 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: little looser with his words that day than he normally 20 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,919 Speaker 1: would have been and perhaps should have been. The quote 21 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: in question, the one that would eventually lead to international controversy, 22 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 1: was just one small passage in a sprawling two thousand 23 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: word conversation. It came up when Lennon and Cleve were 24 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: discussing the declining interest in religion in much of the 25 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: modern world, a trend that plenty of religious leaders had 26 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: already acknowledged and commented on themselves. Lennon said, quote, Christianity 27 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: will go, it will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue 28 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: about that. I know I'm right when I will be 29 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: proved right. We're more popular than Jesus. Now. I don't 30 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: know which will go first, rock and roll or Christianity. 31 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: Jesus was all right, but his disciples were thick and ordinary. 32 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: It's them twisting it that ruins it for me. When 33 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: viewed in context, it seems obvious the singer wasn't really 34 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:37,079 Speaker 1: bragging about his band's popularity compared to Jesus. That was 35 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: more of a sarcastic asside, a colorful way to illustrate 36 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 1: his broader point, which was that the current generation wasn't 37 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: as religious as previous ones. For better or worse, Lennon's 38 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: delivery was blunt and a little arrogant, but the basic 39 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:57,119 Speaker 1: idea he was expressing wasn't new or even all that provocative, 40 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 1: or at least that's what British readers seem to think. 41 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: After the interview was published in the London paper, there 42 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:09,079 Speaker 1: was no huge backlash, no news bulletins, no angry editorials, 43 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: no boycotts, no bands. Most people in England brushed off 44 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: the Jesus comment as just an off the cuff remark 45 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: from a twenty five year old pop star. Lennon described 46 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: the non reaction in nineteen seventy four, saying, quote in England, 47 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: nobody took any notice. They know this guy's blabbing off. 48 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: Who is he? The article got picked up by lots 49 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: of international publications, including The New York Times, but again 50 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: no one made any fuss. That would change five months later, 51 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: when the profile was reprinted again in an American teen 52 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: magazine called Date Book. The issue hit news stands on 53 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: July nine, and within a matter of days, the Jesus 54 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: comment had sparked outrage across the United States. One of 55 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: the earliest and loudest voices to bring attention to the 56 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: quote was a radio DJ named Tommy Charles. He co 57 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: hosted a morning Top forty show on the w a 58 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: Q Y station in Birmingham, Alabama. Part of charles daily 59 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: routine was to flip through magazines and newspapers to look 60 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: for lively topics to talk about between songs. Lennon's remark 61 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: about Jesus certainly fit that bill, so one morning in 62 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: late July, Charles and his partner Doug Layton instituted what 63 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: they called the Band the Beatles Campaign. Their network would 64 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: no longer play any of the band's songs until John 65 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: Lennon had recanted and apologized for his blasphemous remarks. Dozens 66 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: of other radio stations quickly joined in on the band, 67 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: not just in the South, but even all the way 68 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: up in states like New York and Utah. Some DJ's 69 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: actually destroyed their stations Beatles records while live on the air, 70 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: and others called for their communities to organize mass burnings 71 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 1: of Beatles albums. It's unclear how many of these events 72 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:13,239 Speaker 1: actually took place, although a few have been confirmed as happening, 73 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: including at least one organized by the South Carolina chapter 74 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: of the Ku Klux Klan. Either way, the stories of 75 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: the burnings certainly made their way back to the Beatles. 76 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: Paul McCartney later described the band's reaction, saying quote, we 77 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: just thought, yes, well, you can see what it is. 78 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: It's hysterical, low grade American thinking. But no sweat off us. 79 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: Mate burn him if you like. It's not compulsory to 80 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: play them, so we took a balanced view of it. 81 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: The band may have comforted themselves with the fact that 82 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: burned records still had to be purchased, but facing the 83 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: people who were doing the burning, well that could get 84 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: ugly real fast. It was a prospect the band was 85 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: dreading as they prepared to kick off for new US 86 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 1: tour later that August, Beatles manager Brian Epstein tried to 87 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: smooth things over by delivering a statement himself at a 88 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: press conference in New York. However, as the burnings and 89 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: Boycott's continued, it became obvious that nothing short of John 90 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: Lennon swallowing his pride and confronting the controversy head on 91 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: would appease the growing rage. Years later, Lennon described this 92 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: realization saying quote, when they started burning our records, that 93 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 1: was a real shock. I couldn't go away knowing I 94 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: created another little piece of hate in the world, so 95 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: I apologized. His apology, such as it was, was delivered 96 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: at a press conference at the Astor Towers Hotel in Chicago, 97 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,559 Speaker 1: the first stop on the band's US tour. It wasn't 98 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: a very polished statement, but Letton gamely try to answer 99 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: reporters questions on the topic and to clarify what he 100 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 1: had originally meant by the remark. Here's Lenin explaining it 101 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: for himself. If it had said television is more popular 102 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: than Jesus, I might have got away with it, as 103 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: I just happened to be talking to a friend. I 104 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: used the word Beatles as a remote thing, not as 105 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: what I think, because Beatles as though those other Beatles 106 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: like other people, says. I just said they are having 107 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: more influence on kids and things than anything else, including Jesus. 108 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: But I said it in that way, which is the 109 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: wrong way. Yeah. Yeah, some teenagers have repeated your statements. 110 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: So the Beatles, I like the Beatles more than Jesus Christ. 111 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: What do you think about that? Well, originally I was 112 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: pointing out that fact in reference to England, that we 113 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: meant more to kids than Jesus did or religion. At 114 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: that time, I was knocking it or putting it down, 115 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: or just saying it as a fact. And it's true, 116 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: special more for England than here. You know. I'm not 117 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: saying that we're better or greater, or comparing us with 118 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: Jesus Christ as a person or God as a thing 119 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: or whatever it is. I just said what I said, 120 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: and it was wrong. All was taken wrong, and now 121 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: it's all listen. The public's indignation was somewhat cooled by 122 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: Lenin's appearance. For instance, some towns called off their scheduled 123 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: Beatles bonfires. However, the scandal still clung to the band 124 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: throughout their seventeen day tour through fourteen different American cities. 125 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: At each stop, they were met by protesters, many of 126 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: whom carried homemade signs that said things like Beatles go 127 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: Home and Jesus loves you do the Beatles. Of course, 128 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: they had plenty of supporters too. They were still the Beatles, 129 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 1: but the band had never dealt with that level of 130 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: public disapproval and resentment. In the months to come, the 131 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: memories of that sour experience, including the fear of potentially 132 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,959 Speaker 1: being attacked or worse, ultimately led the band to give 133 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 1: up on touring altogether. They may not have known it 134 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: at the time, but the beatles last paid concert as 135 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: a band turned out to be the show they played 136 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: in San Francisco at the end of the tour. Except 137 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: for the occasional TV appearance and their famous rooftop concert 138 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: in London, the Beatles were strictly a studio band for 139 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: the rest of their career. John Lennon was caught off 140 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: guard by the animosity stirred up by his off hand comments, 141 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: something he didn't even remember saying after the fact, but 142 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: once he saw the protests and heard the vitriol, I 143 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: believe he genuinely came to regret saying what he did, 144 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: or at least the way he said it, not because 145 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: it was something untrue or intrinsically harmful, but because it 146 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: had unwittingly brought ugly feelings into the world, a little 147 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: piece of hate, as he called it. Lennon did his 148 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: best to stamp that out as quickly as he could, 149 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 1: but for some people it was still too late. That 150 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: little piece of hate had taken root, and it would 151 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: fester for years to come. On too December eight, a 152 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: decade after the band's break up, that hate finally bore 153 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: the worst kind of fruit. That evening, an obsessed religious 154 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: fan suffering from a mental breakdown waited outside of Lennon's 155 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 1: New York apartment with a loaded gun. He didn't like 156 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: what Lennon had said about God and Heaven and the Beatles, 157 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: so he made sure that the songwriter would never say 158 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:32,839 Speaker 1: anything again. There are all kinds of ideologies and worldviews 159 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:37,079 Speaker 1: that one could reasonably ascribe to Lennon's killer, but the 160 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: beliefs he claimed to hold most dear. The teachings of 161 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: Christ are one of them. As Lenin pointed out himself, 162 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 1: the teachings have never been the problem. It's disciples who 163 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 1: twist them, who ruining. I'm Gay Blusier and hopefully you 164 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,599 Speaker 1: now know a little more about history today than you 165 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: did yesterday. You can learn even more about history by 166 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: following us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at t v 167 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: I HC Show, and if you have any comments or suggestions, 168 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: you can send them my way at this Day at 169 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,079 Speaker 1: I heeart media dot com. Thanks to Chandler Mays for 170 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: producing the show, and thank you for listening. I'll see 171 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: you back here again tomorrow for another Day in History class. 172 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:36,599 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my Heart Radio visit the I 173 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to 174 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.