1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to Long Shot. I'm executive producer Davin Coburn. This 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: is our first season of audio documentaries at the intersection 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: of sports and social change from mcclatchy's newsrooms around the country. 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: We're devoting this season to the story of Jim Duncan, 5 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: at one time the most feared kickoff returner in the NFL, 6 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: who helped lead the Baltimore Colts to their first Super 7 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: Bowl title. But these documentaries are about far more than sports, 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: much like Duncan's legacy. Nearly fifty years ago, Duncan, a 9 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: black man, died suspiciously inside his hometown police station in 10 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: the Deep South, and the questions surrounding his death and 11 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: the events that followed are still painfully relevant today. The 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: lead reporter for this season is Brett McCormick. He grew 13 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: up not far from the town where Duncan died, and 14 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: he spent three years investigating this story for The Herald 15 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: in rock Hill, South Carolina. He'll be your host for 16 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: all eight episodes. The Word of Warning. This story takes 17 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: place during the Civil Rights Movement. It contains adult language 18 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: and adult themes, and now from The Herald McClatchy Studios 19 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: and I Heart Radio. This is long shot season one 20 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: return man second down nine grows up the Earl Moral, 21 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: now the other Bedgan quarterback, Earl Moral, Johnny Unitus and 22 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: a team of destiny. The report of Johnny Unitus is 23 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: that he does have a very very slight hairline fracture 24 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: in the right rib cage, and it is very doultful 25 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: he will see anymore in action this afternoon. Legends of 26 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: the NFL's past, and men who shared a sideline during 27 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies season when Moral replaced the ninjured Unitas 28 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 1: and led the Colts to their only Super Bowl title 29 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: in Baltimore. Well, where are they, Colt Sloper room again 30 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: in the world champion Baltimore Colts, I should say, But 31 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: what about the other hero of that game. There's a 32 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: kid bof a dart one, the leading kicker returner in 33 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: the entire NFL that year, running up finally in a 34 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: great gift offer jo on Earth of the thirty, a 35 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: lockdown defender who became a star of that Super Bowl 36 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: right alongside Moral and United. And it was Jim Duncas 37 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 1: and we covered that tumble. Yeah, those are some of 38 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 1: the names that I heard growing up. You know because 39 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: we had a team picture. This is Moral United, Clyburn. 40 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: And with every day that passes, it seems fewer people 41 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: remember the name of his oldest brother, Jim Duncan. For 42 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:36,399 Speaker 1: everybody that knew my brother, my family held their arms 43 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: out for me. Never had anyone say anything either ordinary 44 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: of slide or anything, you know, derogatory towards my brother, 45 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: my family, or anything like that towards me. But I 46 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: didn't know him as a child. I basically met him 47 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 1: through you know, my brothers and sisters and my aunts 48 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: and uncles who told me stories about him. There's stories 49 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: of a man I known around Lancashire, South Carolina is 50 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: Butch the most feared kick returner in the NFL, who 51 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: made this old milltown proud of their very own Super 52 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: Bowl champion, the world champion. That nineteen seventy title came 53 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: just weeks before Moral was born. He was twenty four 54 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:20,959 Speaker 1: years younger than Jim, even grew up in the house 55 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: Jim bought with football money. Moral has the name his 56 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: oldest brother helped choose for him, commemorating the greatest season 57 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: of Jim's life, a life you think would be celebrated 58 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: here in Lancaster. So why does it seem like so 59 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: few people want to talk about Jim Duncan. The people 60 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: that were old enough to remember it don't want to 61 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: talk about it, and we're living hash it out every time. 62 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: I mean, the story comes up all the time with 63 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: my name mean Moral and I was clamorant, so you know, 64 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: telling my oldest brother played with the Colts. He's deceased. 65 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: You know what happened? MS said it was apparent suicide 66 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: and the police station anything possible. But again, at the 67 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: end of the day, the entire time I was growing up, 68 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: through high school through college, never has this been something 69 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 1: that anybody remotely seeing interested in talking about. One thing 70 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: I've learned in the past few years some questions don't 71 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 1: have easy answers, or maybe any answers at all. The 72 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: story was that my brother went into the police station, 73 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: took a gun off of the police officer, and shot 74 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 1: himself in ahead. Most people don't believe that. I'm Brett McCormick, 75 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: and I've spent the past three years in South Carolina 76 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: investigating the life and death of Jim Duncan. I can 77 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,159 Speaker 1: tell you this story is full of questions like that, 78 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: and then in many ways. Duncan's death even nearly half 79 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: a century later, even if it happened exactly the way 80 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 1: authorities said it did, still it's almost no sense at all. 81 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: It involves rates the mental state of the person and 82 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: a town that was scared to death to say anything. 83 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: A Super Bowl champion dead less than two years later, 84 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 1: no autopsy performed, no fingerprint tests conducted, and no independent 85 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: investigation done. An entire community left searching for answers. How 86 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: did Jim Duncan end up dead on the floor of 87 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: its local police station. He lived during the Civil rights movement, 88 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 1: and maybe that time is part of the answer. Any 89 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: time you're walking around here thing and we shall overcome, 90 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: maybe hatred on the streets of Charlotte'sville, simmering foot hit 91 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: the beef foot Duncan. Duncan was an NFL kicker, turner 92 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: ducker will come out with it. What if the total 93 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: football took on his body is part of the answer? 94 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: Walk out. Duncan died in South Carolina, and maybe the 95 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: place as a factor. In South Carolina, white former police 96 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: officer was sentenced today to twenty years in the fatal 97 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: shooting given unarmed black man. But maybe it's not see 98 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: that enjoying the grand jury deciding not to indict officer. 99 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: I grew up not far from Lancaster and took a 100 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: job as sports editor at the Herald newspaper in rock Hill, 101 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 1: South Carolina. You'll hear some of the interviews in this podcast. 102 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: We're done over the phone. Hi, my name is Brett McCormick. 103 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: I work at a newspaper in South Carolina. When your 104 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: sports department of one, you don't have much of a 105 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: travel budget. Have you got some time to talk? But 106 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: I have tracked down some of Duncan's old teammates and coaches, 107 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: the loan surviving witness to his death, and the family 108 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: of the officer involved. What was your dad like just 109 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,559 Speaker 1: as a person? And I've spent hours with Duncan's family 110 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: and his widow to understand more about an exceptional life 111 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: that ended too soon. Six What is clear is that 112 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: the question still surrounding Duncan's death are is relevant now 113 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: as they were fifty years ago. I don't think Layers 114 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: anything unusual about Lancaster. If you took away the date 115 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: and time, could you imagine that happening today? And the 116 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: injury is yes, you can from The Herald, McClatchy Studios 117 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: and I Heart Radio. This is return Man, Part one. 118 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: The milltown in some ways nine fifties and sixties, Lancaster 119 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: was a model of Southern tranquility. Ten thousand people lived here, 120 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: filling the restaurants and clothing stores on Main Street, depending 121 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: on which side of Main Street you lived on. Lancaster's 122 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: claimed to fame at the time could have been that 123 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: it was the birthplace of Maurice Williams. He and his 124 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: group the Zodiacs met down the road at segregated Bar 125 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: Street High School. Okay, engine stop, both autos. They've been 126 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: in command over right off for others. Lancaster was known 127 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: for a hometown astronaut. And we got to get down Eagle. 128 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: That's Charlie Duke, the voice of Houston's mission control for 129 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: the Apollo eleven moon landing. He later walked on the 130 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: moon himself. Frank quiality. We got the on the ground. 131 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: You got a bunch of guys about the turn blue. 132 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: We're breathing again, thank a lot. Duke was a few 133 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: years older than Duncan and went to the all white 134 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: Lancaster High School across town from Bar Street. Main Street 135 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: has long been the racial dividing line in Lancaster. Whites 136 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: lived on the west side of Maine, African Americans on 137 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 1: the east side. And if you were especially poor, like 138 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: Duncan's family, you lived in a shotgun house east of Maine, 139 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: in a neighborhood called Newtown. Well WoT came here six 140 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: to three? It really was a hicktown and just the 141 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: lankster people associate black sometime assoc treated with. Floyd White 142 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: is eighty six now and still living here in Lancaster. 143 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: He was an assistant coach on Jim's high school football team. 144 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 1: Now Here on the corner a little restaurant like one 145 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: little trol called like you said in the movie and 146 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: get head on it. No nigga six, No nigga. Jim 147 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: was the oldest of Ellerie Cleburne's eight children. He had 148 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: his father's last name, but no other relationship with the man. 149 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: Two years after Jim was born, Ellerie was pregnant with 150 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: her second child, Elroy. Even though it was difficult, always 151 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: were brother not half brothers. Elroy is seventy one now 152 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: and lives about an hour north on Interstate seventy seven 153 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: in Charlotte. There was no, your dad and your dad 154 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: and my dad and my dad. You know, it was 155 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: just that's where we live. You know. Elroy was the 156 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: closest to Jim, and not just an age. Growing up, 157 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,239 Speaker 1: they played sandlot football in Newtown and on lazy afternoons 158 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 1: they hiked a few miles down to a local swimming 159 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: hole on the fall and that was snaking all the 160 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 1: way to the mill and go down to the bottom 161 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: of the pond. Whatever they got into. Elroy wanted to 162 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: be as fearless as his older brother. Quite a few snakes, 163 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: you know, I'm scared the devil snakes today. Money was 164 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: always tight. Jim and Elroy often took odd jobs for 165 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: pocket change and to lighten the financial burden on their mother. 166 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: We was pool, but we didn't know pol. During one 167 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: of my visits to Elroy's home in the past few years, 168 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: I asked him about that. You didn't think about it 169 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 1: or Mama always yeah. But we also had hustles, like 170 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: couldn't grass and just go around and knock on the 171 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: doors and see it. We're gonna ricks and lees. You know, 172 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: we made out a little change. Elroway's biological father also 173 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: left the picture early on, and that made the brothers 174 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: even closer. We had a step He used to be 175 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 1: a brick contractor, so we old houses and just to 176 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: feel quite a few of them in rock Heel. Yeah, 177 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: Jim's mose enduring father figure was that new man. Elroy 178 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 1: mentioned a bricklayer named William McGriff. Jim used to help 179 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:18,199 Speaker 1: McGriff on construction sites, which not only earned him spending money, 180 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: Floyd White remembers it paid off on the field too. 181 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: If he worked with some regulator and he had a 182 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:27,559 Speaker 1: hard blocks and ricks and thank you, even if how 183 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: he waved the ball as he ran drove his coach 184 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: is crazy and he always carried a ball and he 185 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: wouldn't like tuck it away, but we always tried to. 186 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 1: Did you do you know? In practice? You know, and 187 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: then when you get on the field come back to him, 188 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:43,839 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, at least he had strong hands. He 189 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: had strong hands, strong on he could throw that ball 190 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: end zone end. Neighbors say Jim's mother was a quiet 191 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,439 Speaker 1: but imposing matriarch. Her formal education stopped after the seventh grade, 192 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: but they say she had enough hard earned wisdom for 193 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 1: two lifetimes. The main acture painted of her is of 194 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:03,719 Speaker 1: a tall woman in glasses with her hair parted in 195 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: the middle and an unfiltered camel cigarette between her fingers. 196 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: Jim probably got his height from her, and by the 197 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: time he got to high school he was well on 198 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,079 Speaker 1: his way to six ft two. She's probably where he 199 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: got his athleticism to All eight of Ellerie's children were 200 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: offered some type of college sports scholarship, but Floyd White 201 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: remembers that Jim's talent was something special. That's the outside 202 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 1: would look it out. He would out a man too. 203 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: People play football, offstanding, basketball, baseball, ran track, whatever. Jim 204 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:51,559 Speaker 1: found his true calling on the gridiron for the bar 205 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: Street Golden Tigers, which in turn Elroy tried to emulate. 206 00:12:55,880 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: Becoming a star quarterback in his own right was like 207 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,839 Speaker 1: full three full too. Some days I could do on 208 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: my own because that was acripastic, and I copied as 209 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: much as I could, But I couldn't copy running because 210 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: I couldn't run at all. According to family lure, Jim 211 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: was such an athlete he beat opposing players on the field, 212 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: then went and took their money off it. Coming up 213 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: into town, it's about to block away from main streets. 214 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:32,319 Speaker 1: Used the hustle. Coming about eight ball, nine ball, multiply 215 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: nine balls again, And turns out Jim was also good 216 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: at shooting pool. And it really says it was an 217 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 1: easy way for his brother to make a little more 218 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,839 Speaker 1: money in and around Lancaster. And we didn't only just 219 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: go there, We like went to pay macbee all a 220 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: little small towns around and uh, did what'd you have 221 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: like his own pool que or did he just used 222 00:13:55,720 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: the queues that were at there? So he was truly short. Yeah, 223 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:06,439 Speaker 1: he used to shock all around there. It wasn't it 224 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: wasn't murder. We'll be back after the break. Our Street 225 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: High School was named by its students after a major 226 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: road on the side of town where most black people lived. 227 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: It was a clear improvement over the school's previous names, 228 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: Lancaster Training School and Lancaster Colored High School. But you know, 229 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: during that time, he grew up in an area where 230 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: swertain things you didn't do, certain places you didn't go, 231 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: and vice versa for the white race. Glenn Crawford grew 232 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: up down the street from Duncan's family. I sat down 233 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: in Lancaster with Crawford and another of Duncan's childhood friends, 234 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: Thomas Howse, and they carried on just like two people 235 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: who have known each other for seventy years. Restaurants, the 236 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: movie theater, certain areage. You did not go there at difically. 237 00:14:54,760 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: What about that queen? It was? You will said it 238 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: was integrated, but then discriminated as well. Again black and white? 239 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: Was there? We had one as we will go to. Yeah, 240 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: it wasn't really the name of it wasn't deary queen. Well, 241 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: I forgotten the name across the top. I don't know 242 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: what queen. When Jim was growing up, all the white 243 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: students in town went to Lancaster Senior High. Public bathrooms 244 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: were segregated, and one of the water fountains behind that 245 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: ice cream shop was labeled colored. Jim could have been 246 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: tossed in jail for using the wrong one by one. Nearby, 247 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: rock Hill was experiencing a fiery civil rights transition. If 248 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: you're happy with the Communists and the Negro running the 249 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: path or your country, then I'll say you sit back 250 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: down on your tail and let him run it, because 251 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: that's what you want. They're a group of black college 252 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: students set down in mccruary's lunch counter, but we're denied service. 253 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: They refused to leave and were arrested, later becoming known 254 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: as the Friendship nine. Even Chuck Berry acknowledged by passing 255 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: rock Hill in his song about a cross country bus 256 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: trip called Promised Land. At that rock Hill Greyhound station, 257 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: future Georgia Congressman John Lewis was beaten for trying to 258 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: enter the whites only waiting room. I didn't think i'd 259 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: elviously the day when I find out who beat up 260 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: at the bus station and rock Hill his attacker, Elwyn Wilson, 261 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: later repented to my colleague here at the Herald, Andrew Dice. 262 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: Wilson then apologized to Lewis and even appeared on CNN. 263 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: It all started off and the local newspaper and well 264 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: you got the like, I'm apologizing to the world all 265 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: right now. In Lancaster, though just about everyone I spoke 266 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: to said that few people challenged segregation. The community was close. 267 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: We were a African vinnage. Lancaster native Michael Bogan attended 268 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: Bar Street School a few years after Duncan. Today he 269 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 1: lives about an hour south in Columbia, South Carolina, but 270 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 1: he's still active in Bar Streets Alumni Foundation. Was good 271 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: old days when if I had something wrong by the 272 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 1: time I got home, somebody had called my woman I 273 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: had done. I never had a key to my house 274 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: the whole time I lived at Lantage. We never loved 275 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: and if somebody walked on our company while we were 276 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: not there, something neighbor would say, hey there. While there 277 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: was no fighting, there was no shooting, there were no jobs. 278 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 1: There was just people trying to survive. Ellarie Cleburne worked 279 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: as a housekeeper and nanny for Tom Bingham, who was 280 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: then a State Reppert senitive. Her daily interactions with the 281 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 1: Mingham family would have been one of the few times 282 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,360 Speaker 1: in Lancaster when a black person entered a white home. 283 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: What El always said another time was for football, where 284 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: the one field in town was home to both white 285 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: and black players. We played uh okay, so you played 286 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: on their field for a football game. For baseball games, 287 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 1: we played at down at the Mergan Illusion at Bar Street, 288 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,959 Speaker 1: Floyd White remembers Jim led the Golden Tigers to an 289 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: undefeated season and at least one appearance in a championship game. 290 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: High school records here from sixty five years ago, especially 291 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: from segregated schools, are nearly impossible to find, but we 292 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: know that for some of his Bar Street career. Jim's 293 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 1: head coach was Roosevelt Gilliam. He went by the nickname 294 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 1: Sandy and was an important South Carolina sports figure in 295 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: his own right. Gilliam coach football, basketball, and baseball at 296 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: a pair of black high schools in the state, and 297 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: he compiled a total record of two five wins and 298 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: just twenty three losses. So Jim couldn't have lost many 299 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: games under him in whatever sport he was playing, which 300 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: was an outstanding athlete from a little boy. He was 301 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:18,199 Speaker 1: good Crawford and House again, he was doing it in football, baseball, 302 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 1: and basketball. Could have won at Yeah, most of all 303 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: of his brothers were about to play. Was he famous 304 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 1: in town? Famous among white people? Yeah, we'll be back 305 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: after this. During Jim's lifetime, there was one other place 306 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: in Lancaster where African Americans regularly cross paths with whites, 307 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: on the south side of town, where a giant cotton 308 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: mill looms large as a modern symbol of early American history. 309 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 1: When you mentioned the South, most people think of cotton 310 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: in South Carolina. Lasters of those days would look with 311 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: astonishment at King Cotton's empire. Today, it's been said that 312 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: if slavery was the cornerstone of the Confederate South. Cotton 313 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 1: was its foundation. If nineteen fifties, Lancaster was an industrial 314 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: powerhouse of South Carolina. Its foundation was a cotton mill 315 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: built in the late eighteen hundreds in the years following 316 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: the Civil War, in a time of extraordinary change in 317 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: the South. You'll see them wherever you drive and the 318 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 1: tech Bill Belt such giant mills as this one and 319 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: list the largest cotton mill ever constructed under a single room. 320 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: This documentary was created in the early nineteen fifties by 321 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: the Humble Oil and Refining Company. Here wonderful raw materials, 322 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: abundance of power, and skilled craftsmanship combined to build an 323 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: ever growing industry, not only in mills that spin and 324 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: weaves put those that bleach and die and finish the 325 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: cloth as well. What has happened is shoes, mass migration 326 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 1: off the farms, and so people are looking for the 327 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: best opportunities that they could get. So you have to 328 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: look at it both ways to understand. Vernon Burton is 329 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: a history professor at Clemson University and an expert on 330 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,360 Speaker 1: milltowns in the South. He grew up in one himself. 331 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: These were proud folks on the build There really was 332 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: a sense of community, almost family among people. And there's 333 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 1: no doubt the outside influence of the meal owners are 334 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: the mills on the communities. When I was a boy, 335 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: he picked up people's laundry. Thanksgiving, Christmas, we delivered turkeys 336 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 1: and baskets. They had their own police force. Eason. The 337 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: factory in Lancaster was owned by Leroy Springs, and by 338 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,880 Speaker 1: the time Jim Duncan was born, that Springs factory had 339 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: grown into one of the largest cotton mills in the state. 340 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: Around it, a mill village had been created where thousands 341 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 1: of workers lived with their families. The whole system reflected 342 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: the policy of the styropathter the Civil War, and the 343 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: industry is set up these mills and they wanted to 344 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 1: secure a ready supplied labor. Timothy mentioned is the author 345 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: of Hiring the Black Worker, a History of racial integration 346 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,120 Speaker 1: in the textile industry of the American South. I think 347 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: he was but if we build these towns and provide 348 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: the housing, we can have them here and now working 349 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 1: our mills, and will have them like as a labor 350 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: supply right there contained if you life, rather than them 351 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: being on the land as the mill prospered, the Springs 352 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 1: family's control over Lancaster grew. Euroy Springs established the local bank, 353 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: He was the chief partner in the local railroad, and 354 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: when his son, Elliott took over the family business, the 355 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,919 Speaker 1: Springs family built the hospital in town. Elliott Springs then 356 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 1: built a massive park nearby for Mill families, complete with 357 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 1: a pool and amphitheater that reportedly hosted Patsy Klein and 358 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: early Dolly Parton concerts, but not Johnny Cash. Elliott reportedly 359 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 1: associated him with marijuana use and didn't want that influence 360 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: in Lancaster. All of that is important context about the 361 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: place that shaped Jim's life and potentially events that caused 362 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: his death. When I grew up, now there was segregation, 363 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: of course, it was not integration. Burton remembers a similar 364 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: controlling dynamic in his childhood Milltown, and there were three 365 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: kinds of segregation. The black kids went to their school, 366 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: the rural kids, and the town kids went to our school. 367 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: And then at least to the fourth grade, the meal 368 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: kids went to school on the mill. And part of 369 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 1: that was inculcating them to believe that they're going to 370 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: be just real workers. You know. It was very very 371 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 1: contained society in many ways built upon the idea of 372 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 1: the old slave plantation, supposedly Caroline, where shaded moss hung 373 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:54,199 Speaker 1: highways carry the traveler into another era. Any comparison to 374 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: slavery will feel pretty loaded these days, but it also 375 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: feels particularly relevant here. And I took on the all 376 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: day to old plantation roads and the great plantation houses 377 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 1: mellowed by the passing of the year. The institutionalized segregation 378 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: African Americans faced in Lancashire was a direct result of 379 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: Supreme Court decisions in the wake of the Civil War 380 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: that legalized Jim Crow laws to dominate the country by force. 381 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: And just put into a thick these on Cofa and 382 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 1: these damnable proposals he has recommended under the guy called 383 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: Civil Rights Convention. Speech by then South Carolina Senator strom 384 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 1: Thurman sums up what many people here thought of separate 385 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 1: but equal. And I'll tell you the American people from 386 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: one part had better wake up and a parafect your program. 387 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: And if they don't, then next thing would be a 388 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: cotalitatian state in these United States. Prior to the Civil War, 389 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: on six of the population of South Carolina had been enslaved. 390 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 1: Today of the black population of the United States can 391 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 1: trace its ancestry back through South Carolina. The loss of 392 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 1: the war and the loss of free slave labor destroyed 393 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 1: South Carolina's economy. The state was one of the poorest 394 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 1: in the nation for the next hundred years. Cotton mills 395 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 1: like Springs offered relief from the economic hardship for everyone. 396 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: By the time Jim Duncan was winning games at bar 397 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: Street High, Springs Mill was generating two million dollars a 398 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: year in revenue. Yeah the high school job, Michael Bogan remembers, 399 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: the mill became a progressive force for integration, at least 400 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,479 Speaker 1: by South Carolina's standards. It seemed the only color of 401 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,360 Speaker 1: spring Saw was green. Just so long as no one 402 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: stepped out of line control, mostos Okay did not go 403 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: to be they would lose their jobs, stayed in place. 404 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: In Vernon Burton, the Clemson historian, who worked at a 405 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: mill as a teenager, had a note of caution about 406 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: integration and the sort of work African Americans were doing 407 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: at mills in the sixties. There there on the weekend 408 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: with me cleaning up, but working with some of the 409 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: unpleasant jobs we used to laugh because I've one bathrooms. 410 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: I used it with the black workers and we laught 411 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: about how we were breaking the law. Right. So I 412 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: think not to take away from them that they're doing 413 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: a good thing by pushing for integration, but I think 414 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: you should never forget that there's no doubt in South 415 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: Carolina at that time period, very white supremaci, very dedicated 416 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 1: to white privilege and not understanding at all what they're 417 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 1: doing in perpetuation. So that's the culture you're dealing with, 418 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:54,120 Speaker 1: and it's not just insistent, they're clueless. Before every fall, 419 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: there must be a rise, and Jim Duncans rise took 420 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 1: into places no one else from Lancashire has ever gone. 421 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: I'm part two of Returned Man. My father would have said, 422 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: which me have represented one of the greatest athlete teas 423 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: ever coached s Public Gold. Jim Duncan had such great speed. 424 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: If he did nothing else, he could quite one of 425 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 1: a close game, and you win the NFL. If you 426 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: can really play, you get instant credibility. He can flat 427 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: out playing. We all have the same problem. They don't 428 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: hang you because you're a Baptist, they hang you Gold, 429 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 1: you're black. There's a change in the environment, they have 430 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 1: the chance keep it right. Aside of the life that 431 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: all the niggas out you said. I'm Brett McCormick. Return 432 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: Man is the production of The Herald, Clatchy Studios and 433 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. It's produced by Matt Walsh, Karatt Tabor Cotta, Stevens, 434 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: Rachel Wise, and Davin Coburn. The executive producer for I 435 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: Heeart Radio is Sean Titone. For lots more on this story, 436 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 1: go to Harold online dot com Slash return Man. If 437 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: you have any additional information about Jim Duncan's life or death, 438 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: email us at return Man at Harold online dot com. 439 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: To continue supporting this kind of work, visit Harold online 440 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: dot com slash Podcasts and consider a digital subscription. And 441 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: for more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I 442 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 443 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.