1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,200 Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Me and M, 2 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: the British modern luxury clothing label designed for busy women. 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: Founded and designed in London. Me and M is about 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 1: intelligence style. Much thought and care are put into the 5 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: design process, so every piece is flattering, functional and made 6 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: to last forever. Me and M is well known for 7 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: its trousers and how I got to know the brand. 8 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,119 Speaker 1: It's my go to for styles that are comfortable enough 9 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: to wear in the kitchen or the restaurant, also polished 10 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: enough for meetings. Me and M is available online and 11 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 1: in its stores across London, Edinburgh, New York. If you're 12 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: in London, I'd really recommend heading to their beautiful, brand 13 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: new flagship store in Marlevine, which opens on the twenty 14 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: ninth of October. The connections between Scott Rothkoff, director of 15 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: New York's Whitney Museum, and I run very deep. When 16 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: Rose and I wrote the first River Cafe cookbook in 17 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four, Scott's husband Jonathan Burnham helped us with 18 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: our introduction. When the Jasper John's retrospective opened at the Whitney, Scott, 19 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: who curated the show, took us and our young children 20 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: through slowly describing the paintings he loved most and why 21 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 1: museums and restaurants are about connecting art and people. They 22 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: welcome audiences Scott's chosen word, into his space and create 23 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: something beautiful to see, or we cook something delicious for 24 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: them to eat. When I spoke to you yesterday, I said, 25 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: what's new, and you said, Ruthie, what's new is that 26 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: I had a visit from Barack and Michelle Obama to 27 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: see the show that is on right now, which is 28 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: called Edges of Aley. 29 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 2: Tell me about it. 30 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is really one of the most exciting thing 31 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 3: that's ever happened at the Whitney. The show is just 32 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 3: this extraordinary look into the life and work of the 33 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 3: American choreographer Alvin Ailey, who famously said that he wanted 34 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 3: to chronicle in his art, which was Dan dance the 35 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 3: Black experience, and he does that, but for me, that's 36 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 3: the American experience. There's everything in this work, you know. 37 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 3: He grew up in Rogers, Texas in the South. It 38 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 3: was a sharecropping family, very poor. He lived in la 39 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 3: He danced on Broadway, he danced in movies. He choreographed 40 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 3: the opening night of Studio fifty four. You have the Church, 41 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 3: you have Soul Train, you have Gospel, you have Duke Ellington, 42 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 3: you have the State Department, which funded his journeys around 43 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 3: the world. As you know, one of the great choreographers 44 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 3: of America, beginning in the nineteen sixties, he danced at 45 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 3: the Lynda Johnson White House, and Ailey has never been 46 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 3: subject of a big show like this, And he is, 47 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 3: to my mind, not you know, the greatest black choreographer 48 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 3: or even the greatest choreographer. He's one of the greatest 49 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 3: creative geniuses of the twentieth century in any medium period. 50 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 3: And that's what this show is about. So when the 51 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 3: Obamas came calling on the second or third day that 52 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 3: the show was opened to say could we come for 53 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 3: our anniversary, I thought, sure that we can make happen. 54 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 3: So they got a private visit too, Ruthie. An hour 55 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 3: and fifteen minutes they stayed, and it was so moving 56 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 3: to see that show through their eyes. Was really something 57 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 3: I'll never forget. 58 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: Well, lucky them, yes, lucky to have you and lucky 59 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:14,959 Speaker 1: to take them there. 60 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 2: So you've come for. 61 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,679 Speaker 3: Freeze, I've come for freeze, tell me. And also I 62 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 3: came for a birthday party of one of Jonathan's old 63 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 3: friends called the Destination Party. 64 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 2: It was it was your station. 65 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 3: We were at Castle Howard, which is a very glamorous 66 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 3: place to celebrate a seventieth birthday of a mother and 67 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 3: a thirtieth birthday of her daughter, which ensures that you 68 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 3: have a lot of good looking young people as you 69 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 3: get older, and I, being forty eight, was really upset 70 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 3: that I was seated at the old people's table. Well, 71 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,119 Speaker 3: I thought, you know, and you know, like I had 72 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 3: this bridge generation. Yeah, so that was a good you know, 73 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,839 Speaker 3: having an English husband means that there are certain things 74 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 3: that bring me to London other than just art fairs 75 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 3: and museum openings. 76 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 2: Why don't we read the recipe? 77 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 3: Well, this is very exciting for me because I don't 78 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 3: think I've actually read a recipe since I met my husband. 79 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 3: He does all the cooking and I do all the eating. 80 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 3: But this is something I really enjoy. I love artichokes, 81 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 3: so I'm delighted to read about spaghetti with artichoke pesto 82 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 3: for six. If we were making it at my home, 83 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 3: we'd probably make it for eight, even if we were 84 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 3: only having six. Comeback, because Jonathan is always panicked, there 85 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 3: won't be enough. 86 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 2: That's a nice quality, so there's always too much. 87 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 3: Exactly six small globe artichokes boiled, one hundred grams of 88 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 3: pine nuts, one garlic clove, two fifty mL of milk, 89 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 3: two tablespoons of parsley leaves, one hundred and fifty grams 90 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 3: of grated pecorino, one hundred and fifty mili liters of 91 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 3: olive oil, four hundred grams of spaghetti. Blend the artichokes, 92 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 3: pine nuts, and garlic to a rough pulp. Add the milk, 93 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 3: parsley and pecorino, and pulse again. Add the olive oil 94 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 3: to the mixture to form a cream, season and put 95 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 3: it into a small p Cook the spaghetti until al dente. 96 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 3: Drain and return the pasta to the pan with one 97 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 3: ladleful of hot water, toss, Add the pesto and toss again. 98 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 3: The sauce should be wet and creamy. If necessary, add 99 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 3: more water. Serve with freshly grated pecorino or parmesan. 100 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: Oh great, what do you want to get him? We're 101 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: going to bring some over cooking. Get there in the restaurant, 102 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: even though you're having lunch. We'll have a taste. 103 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 3: Well. I didn't have breakfast in anticipation of. 104 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 1: My lunch, so there have spaghetti before lunch. So let's 105 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 1: talk about growing up in Dallas. First, the start at 106 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 1: the beginning. In the beginning, tell me about the food 107 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 1: as a child in your home. 108 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 3: Sure, I was born in Arizona. I was born on 109 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 3: an Air Force base called Luke Air Force Base that 110 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 3: was outside of Phoenix, and my dad was in the 111 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 3: service then. This was in the seventies, and we moved 112 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 3: to Dallas when I was just almost a year old. 113 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 3: So I really did grow up in Dallas and really 114 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 3: was a kind of child of the nineteen eighties. 115 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 2: And thous sisters. 116 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 3: No, I have a stepsister who entered my life when 117 00:05:58,160 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 3: I was twelve. 118 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 2: Let's say, so you were an only child with your parents. 119 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 3: I was, My mom worked, My dad was a doctor. 120 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 3: My mom worked at what was then a new saxophonth 121 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 3: Avenue store selling handbags to you know, these people in 122 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 3: Dallas in the eighties who wanted very glamorous looking bags 123 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 3: covered with rhinestones and things. And she was a good cook. 124 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 3: And when I was really little, in our household we 125 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 3: kept kosher actually, so that was interesting and it was 126 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 3: you know, not that strict. When we went out, we 127 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 3: kind of cheated, but at home it was because it 128 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 3: was no pork, no pork, no shellfish, no milk and meat, 129 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 3: which actually meant I was introduced to all sorts of 130 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 3: funny products like cool whip, which was a kind of 131 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 3: fake whipped cream because you couldn't have whiped cream on 132 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 3: your dessert after a meal that had eaten at things 133 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 3: like that. And she was a good cook. My mom 134 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 3: and her grandfather had been a baker, and her grandmother 135 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 3: the cook at a restaurant in a hotel in the 136 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 3: Catskill Mountains that they know what it was called the Liberty. Yeah, 137 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 3: it no longer exists, that hotel. It was very close 138 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,119 Speaker 3: to Gross. It was the sort of less less known 139 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 3: cousin of Gross Singers. 140 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: Yes, that's where I grew Yeah, I know, so my 141 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: years right and you know that area. 142 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 3: Well, the hotel was actually called the Dixie Lake Hotel. 143 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 3: The town was Liberty, New York. That was the nearest 144 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 3: one to it. So she grew up in this world 145 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 3: of hospitality. It was a kosher hotel, and she learned 146 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 3: certain things from from her mother and her grandparents. So 147 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 3: we did have a lot of home cooking. I remember, 148 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 3: especially the Jewish holidays like Passover and restaurant on everyone 149 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 3: coming together around big meals. 150 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: Did your mother have a recipe book of her grandparents' recipes? 151 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 3: You know, she joked that her grandmother and her mother 152 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 3: used to always sabotage all the recipes that they would 153 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 3: give to her, which apparently is not uncommon. They would 154 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 3: accidentally leave out so that she was sort of foiled 155 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 3: and ever being as good a cook as they were. 156 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 3: But you know, it was a time in Dallas where 157 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 3: there was probably like the kind of inkling of a 158 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 3: dawning food conscience. 159 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 2: Or you know, we're talking about what years in the eighties. 160 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 3: Let's say it's not we didn't go to farmers markets, 161 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 3: nobody had ingredients like that. But I remember, you know, 162 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 3: you could buy basil at the supermarket that wasn't flaked 163 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 3: and dry, or you know, my mother had this cookbook 164 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 3: that reached us from New York City. It was called 165 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 3: the Silver Palette Cookbook, and it was about it was 166 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 3: from this store on the Upper West Side that sold 167 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 3: prepared foods basically in New York and my mother must 168 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 3: have thought that this was incredibly kind of chic and worldly, 169 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 3: and this was sort of before anybody had heard of 170 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 3: inine Garden, let's say, and the kind of things that 171 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 3: she has you cook. And she would make recipes from 172 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 3: that cookbook, and I remember looking at it thinking this 173 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 3: just must be the most glamorous place in the world. 174 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 3: I always had an obsession with New York, so it 175 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 3: wasn't all old fashioned kosher cooking. 176 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: So she would work during the day and shop and 177 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 1: then come home and would you sit down to dinner? 178 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: And we did as a family. 179 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 3: We always pretty much always sat down to dinner. 180 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: You know. 181 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 3: My parents divorced when I was nine or ten, and 182 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 3: they had joint custody, so I would go back and forth, 183 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 3: and it kind of meant that whatever night they had me, 184 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 3: they were home. They didn't make other plans because that 185 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 3: was maybe only half the time. And we would eat 186 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 3: my mom, my stepfather, and I and she would often, 187 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 3: you know, grill like a simple chicken breasts I can remember, 188 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,599 Speaker 3: like marinated in Italian dressing, which also probably seemed like 189 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 3: an interesting food concept at the time. And my stepmother 190 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 3: also cooked. But my father had a recipe that he 191 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 3: thought that he was famous for. Famous perhaps only to 192 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 3: those who knew him well, called hamburger lemons surprise. 193 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 2: Which part was a surprise. 194 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 3: I don't know, probably the amount of lemons or the 195 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 3: black pepper corns that as a child I used to 196 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 3: have to avoid, you know, burning my mouth. And that's 197 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 3: the only thing I can make without a recipe. 198 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 2: I can make. 199 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, you can make it too, Ruthy, I bet, I 200 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 3: don't think you'd want to. 201 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 2: You ever put it with pasta? 202 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 3: You know you could. You could put it with pasta, 203 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 3: You could put it with anything. You could feed it 204 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 3: to your dog. 205 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: Do you think your father was was expressing some form 206 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: of love for you in a way? 207 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 3: There might have been a bit of that. 208 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 2: I went to Dallas. 209 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: I was in Dallas, which and I he was working 210 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 1: with Ray Nasher m hm, great collective course, and we 211 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: insisted on staying downtown. But this was in the seventies, 212 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: maybe late seventies. But we had some good food and 213 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: I was wondering if you did you go out meals 214 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: with your parents? 215 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 3: We did? You know? We went to Italian or Chinese 216 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 3: restaurants in the neighborhood. 217 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 2: Special occasion. 218 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, well there were special occasions there, you know, there 219 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 3: were and you might know more about this than I did. 220 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 3: But at that time in Dallas there was this kind 221 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 3: of beginning of a kind of Southwestern cuisine, and there 222 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 3: was a chef called Fearing at the Mansion on Turtle 223 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 3: Creature so expensive that had a really well known chef, 224 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 3: and they were bringing together ideas from some Mexican cuisine 225 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 3: and some barbecue and you know, grilling and blackening things 226 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 3: and kind of thinking about the Southwest and some of 227 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 3: the more local cooking traditions and a sort of elevated manner. 228 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 3: So that was a thing. And then there were a 229 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 3: couple of like really old fashioned kind of restaurants I'm 230 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 3: sure that don't exist in hotels like the Adulphus, and 231 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,839 Speaker 3: you would go and that's where we stayed, did you there? 232 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 2: You go, that's the hotel with staff. I'd thought of that. 233 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 2: In forty year I. 234 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 3: Had a restaurant there and it was called the Pyramid Room, 235 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 3: and you could have a sorbet, you know, intermetso that 236 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 3: they would bring out a frozen swan that I think 237 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 3: had like a flashlight inside, so it was like this 238 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 3: glowing ice swan. And you could have a chocolate souflee there, 239 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 3: which is the only time in my life that I 240 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 3: ever had a soup flet until probably I went to 241 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 3: France many years later. So there were these occasions that 242 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 3: you did go out, you know, infrequently, for these super 243 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 3: what seemed like very grand dining experiences. 244 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: So going back to the art history, who grew up 245 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: always with art and with the I. 246 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 3: Visually grew up just always loving art. It was the 247 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 3: thing that excited me and interested me the most of 248 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 3: anything in the world. And I had friends in Dallas 249 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 3: and the eighties who liked football or American football, I mean, 250 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 3: playing sports. I never had any interest. My father remembers 251 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 3: me picking flowers by the side of the field at 252 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 3: my first soccer game, and I think he realized I 253 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 3: was not going to be one for team sports at 254 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 3: that point. But my mother was interested in art, and 255 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 3: she painted little herself, and she really encouraged me. And 256 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 3: I developed an absolute fascination with Frankloyd Wright, the architect, 257 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 3: and he had designed the theater in Dallas where I 258 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,199 Speaker 3: took little acting classes and did plays as a kid. 259 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 3: And maybe when I was about nine or ten, right 260 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 3: around the time my parents were getting divorced, actually I 261 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 3: sort of wanted to go see some of these buildings, 262 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,559 Speaker 3: and my mother, I think, realized that this was something 263 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 3: that she could encourage in me. And we'd plan these 264 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,319 Speaker 3: trips and we went to see falling water outside of Pittsburgh, 265 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 3: and we went to Taliessen, and we went to Chicago, 266 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 3: and we went to all these different places, and it 267 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 3: was this kind of wonderful time in the life of 268 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 3: a mother and a son. Well, I was probably at 269 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 3: that point, about eleven to twelve thirteen. 270 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 2: What do you think was it that drew you to 271 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 2: Frank Cloyd? 272 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 3: There was something, you know. I used to study the 273 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 3: floor plants and I could memory all the buildings. I 274 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 3: was absolutely obsessed, and I would ask for volumes of 275 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 3: the catalog Raisina for my birthday. They were very expensive 276 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 3: and they were printed in Japan. I think we'd go 277 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 3: to the Soli store and I had a collection of 278 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 3: Frank would write books, and there was something about the 279 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 3: kind of complexity of the space, and I would get 280 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 3: lost in these floor plans and try to understand how 281 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 3: the rooms fit together. And also the story of him 282 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 3: was kind of grand and he went under the cape 283 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 3: and a beret and you know, thwacked his cane and 284 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 3: made pronouncements. Then at some point an interest in contemporary 285 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 3: art sort of supplanted the architecture fixation. But what my grandparents, 286 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 3: who were very I was very close to my grandmother, 287 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 3: especially my father's my father's mother was it just about 288 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 3: my favorite person in the whole world. I'm even thinking 289 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 3: about her now, I get a little choked up. I 290 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 3: miss her. She always had her face made up and 291 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 3: went to the beauty parlor, and you know, she wore 292 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 3: some jewelry. And her husband was an accountant who had 293 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 3: been born literally in a tenement on Ludlow Street and 294 00:13:57,920 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 3: went to City College for free, which was a great 295 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,199 Speaker 3: opportunity that people had in those years during the depression. 296 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:09,959 Speaker 3: But she really believed in supporting my interest in art, 297 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 3: and she and my grandfather I would I would go 298 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 3: once a year to stay with them in August for 299 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 3: like a week on Delta Airlines as an unaccompanied mint 300 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 3: or whatever age. I would yeah, Badge and I would 301 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 3: get there, and I can still picture that that drive 302 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 3: from LaGuardia Airport out to Hicksville, which is of course 303 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 3: not a very attractive drive, but in my mind that 304 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 3: was like people have what's your favorite journey, you know, 305 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 3: like they're going to the Alps, you know, to go 306 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 3: see My favorite journey was from LaGuardia to Hicksville, you know, 307 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 3: your grandmother. Yeah, with them in the car. I remember 308 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 3: being picked up and the anticipation of what that week 309 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 3: would be. And they took me to the Whitney Museum 310 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 3: many times as a child when it was on Madison 311 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 3: Avenue to look at Calder Circus. 312 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 2: Will you describe what Calder Circus was? 313 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, Calder Circus is one of the real treasures of 314 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 3: the Whitney's collection, made by Alexander Calder, and he made 315 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 3: sort of for fun, but it became a great artwork, 316 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 3: all these different circus figures that he could, you know, 317 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 3: pull a lever on a kangaroo and you know, it 318 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 3: would walk and move its feet. And it's actually on 319 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 3: view right now in the Whitney Museum in downtown Manhattan, 320 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 3: and I take my son there and he's totally into it. 321 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 3: The lion, all the different characters, and I'm just reminded. 322 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 3: It's very touching to meet things do come full circle. 323 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: The River Cafe Cafe, our all day space and just 324 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: steps away from the restaurant, is now open in the 325 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: morning an Italian breakfast with cornetti, chiambella and cristada from 326 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: our pastry kitchen. In the afternoon, I screamed coops and 327 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: River Cafe classic desserts. We have sharing plates, Salumi, Misti, mozzarella, brusquetta, 328 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: red and yellow peppers, Vitello, tonado and more. Come in 329 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: the evening for cocktails with our resident pianist in the bar. 330 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 2: No need to book see you here. 331 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: Just thinking of change in your life also in terms 332 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: of the way you ate and what you could eat 333 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: and maybe what you didn't need or bother eating. 334 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 2: You went to college and you went to Harvard. 335 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: Was that either an awakening because of the restaurants that 336 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: were available in Cambridge or did you you know? 337 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 3: I mean I ate a lot of you know, bad 338 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 3: dorm food, and I didn't cook and I didn't have 339 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 3: a kitchen then because I lived in a dorm. But 340 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 3: it was obviously a more international context. 341 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: You know. 342 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 3: Now Dallas has many immigrants from all around the world too, 343 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 3: But we didn't grow up going to those kind of restaurants. 344 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 3: I remember the first time I ate Ethiopian food and 345 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 3: the kind of tang of that bread, or the first time, 346 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 3: you know, I had Vietnamese fa you know, the kind 347 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 3: of thing in Cambridge exactly, and the kind of thing 348 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 3: that people associate with graduate student life and cosapolitan areas. 349 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 3: My taste definitely started awakening to a broader range. Like 350 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 3: in Dallas, were going to be the only Asian food 351 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 3: I would have had would have been a certain kind 352 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 3: of Chinese food, and I say certain kind meaning American kind. 353 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 3: But as I got to college, I had, you know, 354 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 3: Japanese food and all these things, and a lot of 355 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 3: it was was cheap, and we would go out with 356 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 3: our friends sometimes venture into Boston. 357 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 2: After Harvard, you moved to New York. 358 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 3: I moved to New York for a year in an apartment, 359 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 3: in a little apartment in Chelsea, about three blocks from 360 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 3: where I'm living now, which is just to talk about 361 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 3: coming full circle. It was a studio apartment. I did 362 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 3: not have a bed. I had a sofa bed from 363 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 3: Ikia that I rarely opened because that was going to 364 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 3: require too much efforts. I slept sideways on this ikea 365 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 3: sofa bed, and I don't know that you would call 366 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 3: it a kitchen. It was not even a galley kitchen 367 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 3: because it wasn't even enclosed. It was kind of part 368 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 3: of this room essentially the only enclosed part. I don't 369 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 3: know what it's called. It had. It had a stove, 370 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 3: and it had a fridge and had an oven, none 371 00:17:58,040 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 3: of which will probably ever used. I think if you'd 372 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 3: open my fridge then you might have found, you know, 373 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 3: some tonic and some cocktail olives and some leftovers or 374 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 3: something growing on them. 375 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: So social life was centered around going to. 376 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 2: All the restaurants. 377 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, we had these teeny tiny apartments and nobody really 378 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 3: entertained at home. And I remember going, I mean speaking 379 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 3: of like being in London to around the corner from 380 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 3: me was the art dealer Gavin Brown, who now was 381 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 3: part of Barbara Gladstone had this really cool gallery and 382 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 3: he had this really cool bar, and he had a 383 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 3: bar called Passerby Yeah, in the front of the gallery. Yeah, 384 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 3: this social space. So this would have been in my 385 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 3: first year in New York. So let's say its ninteen 386 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 3: ninety nine or something. And I would go to this 387 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 3: bar and I was very aware that everyone in the 388 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 3: room was really cool and really interesting, and I knew 389 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 3: they were I knew who you know. Elizabeth Peyton, Oh 390 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 3: my god, ELIZEB. Peyton's at the bar and I remember 391 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 3: there was this kind of shorter woman with big curly hair, 392 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 3: who it turned out was Amanda Sharp, the founder of Freeze, 393 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 3: speaking of the Freeze Art Fair. So I kind of thought, 394 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 3: you know, I'm just not ready for New York. I 395 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 3: got to go back to school and I picked up, 396 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 3: and I went back to Cambridge for graduate school, so 397 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 3: studying art history. And then at some point I was 398 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 3: offered a job of moving to New York to become 399 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 3: a senior editor, and I thought, I better get to 400 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 3: New York in my late twenties, and I was going 401 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 3: to meet artists of my generation and I was going 402 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 3: to write about them, and I was going to go 403 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 3: to their studios and I was going to drink with them, 404 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 3: and maybe I'd make out with them and we'd go 405 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 3: to bars and we just this was the minute, the 406 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 3: last minute, or I was going to end up at 407 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 3: Harvard and the Faculty Club with the pipe, which could 408 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 3: have happened because I loved I loved the Academy. And 409 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 3: so I picked up, and I moved to New York 410 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 3: and started this job in the art world, which I 411 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 3: never left. In New York. That was twenty years. Yeah, 412 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 3: then I was ready. I had a business card. 413 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: I knew where I'm not ready for New York. 414 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was like that. I was ready to not 415 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,199 Speaker 3: be that student or that Texas kid anymore. And it 416 00:19:55,280 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 3: was an incredible journey about four five oh six, the 417 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 3: aughts as we call them, meeting so many people. 418 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 2: So did your aspiration? 419 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 1: Did you did hang out with young artists? 420 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 2: Did go to their studios? And you did? And did 421 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 2: you eat? 422 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 3: And some of the friends check them out? You know 423 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 3: the eating again? It was it was funny. I ate 424 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 3: as a guest, as a journalist, as an editor. We 425 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 3: went to the places where the business was of looking 426 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 3: at art, of selling art, and often our hosts were 427 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 3: museums or galleries that celebrated their artists. And we went 428 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 3: to around the world to where art first were. And 429 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 3: I developed a sort of taste for foods in a 430 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 3: very select set of cities that were the stops on 431 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 3: the art world's caravan. 432 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: I've always been interested in reading much earlier about to 433 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 1: Cooning and Pollock and the artists that were in New 434 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 1: York and what was it called maxis Kansas City where 435 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: they would and the solitary life that they had paying 436 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,360 Speaker 1: all day in his studio and then going out at 437 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: night to drink and to party and too because it 438 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 1: is solitary. 439 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 3: And I think Gavin's Bar that one passer by mentioned 440 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 3: was a bit of a maxis of its moment, and 441 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 3: you know that it was interesting as a young critic, editor, person, 442 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 3: whatever I was, We my friends and I were interested 443 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,159 Speaker 3: in the places that had a kind of patina of 444 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 3: the art world's history. And it's amazing to me now 445 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 3: to think that quite a few of them that we 446 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,719 Speaker 3: went to still exist twenty years later. And probably they 447 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 3: were like Indochine, like the Odeon. I mean, these were 448 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 3: places where we had seen pictures of, you know, the 449 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 3: Leo Castelli gallery in the bathroom at Odeon with Andy Warhol, 450 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,719 Speaker 3: and you know, we could imagine what it was like 451 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 3: when people went out there. And that was the eighties. 452 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 3: So this was twenty years later, and twenty years later 453 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 3: it's still there. 454 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 2: You were at the Whitney after art Form, Yes, is 455 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 2: that right? 456 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 3: So I went to work at the Whitney almost exactly 457 00:21:58,359 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 3: fifteen years ago, two thousand. 458 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:04,199 Speaker 1: And nine, on Madison Avenue Museum by Marcel Pryor exactly. 459 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 3: You know, when I started the museum. First of all, 460 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 3: I was not the director or the chief airs. My 461 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 3: title was one word curator. It got longer as the 462 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 3: time went by, so they had already made the decision 463 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 3: to move downtown and the building was roughly designed by 464 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 3: the time I got there, although in two thousand and 465 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 3: nine when I started, we were really not long after 466 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 3: the wait financial crisis, so there was some concern as 467 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 3: to whether the museum was able to raise the money 468 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 3: to do this project, which which we did. 469 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: Did you always knew that you wanted a restaurant. 470 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 3: There, Yeah, there was always going to be a restaurant. 471 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 3: I think There've been a number of different ideas that 472 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 3: I've witnessed in the last twenty years in the business, 473 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,640 Speaker 3: and probably my thoughts have evolved. 474 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 2: Over that times well. 475 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 3: I mean, the funny thing is those bad museum restaurants, 476 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 3: the cafeterias that big museums do. I remember going to 477 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 3: the one at the Met with my grandmother in the eighties, 478 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 3: and you could get at a cup of coffee that 479 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 3: wasn't too expensive, you could serve yourself. The quality of 480 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 3: the food may not have been that good, but it 481 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 3: was extremely inclusive. And what I think we came to 482 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 3: see was the idea that museums wanted to kind of 483 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 3: up level this food service experience, and in so doing 484 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 3: they became more expensive and more exclusionary. And I remember thinking, 485 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 3: there's something funny about the first thing somebody sees is 486 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 3: a patron eating a forty dollars piece of fish, and 487 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 3: that became a greater disconnect in I think our minds 488 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 3: as we wanted to create more access to the museum. 489 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 3: So we've just relaunched our food service, and we sort 490 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 3: of liked the idea of this. We're calling it like 491 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 3: the flagship of French at bakery, that a bakery is 492 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 3: a place where you can get sandwiches or a croissant 493 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 3: or a cup of coffee, and that it would not 494 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 3: be really fine fine dining, but an up level museum 495 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 3: cafe which is not cheap, but it's certainly much more 496 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 3: affordable than our past restaurant down stairs. And people can 497 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 3: come in the neighborhood and take the bread if you 498 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 3: bake up the Whitney home, they can get a cup 499 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 3: of coffee. And I like to think that the destination 500 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 3: is really the art, and the cafe is a place 501 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,719 Speaker 3: where you might if you're meeting a friend to see 502 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 3: the Avonne Ali show. You'll come and have lunch before 503 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 3: and then see you get a cup of coffee after 504 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 3: on the way out. But maybe we're not trying to 505 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 3: get in the business of running an incredible fine dining 506 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 3: establishment on our eighth floor of a beautiful bar with 507 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 3: views all of New York and see the Statue of 508 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 3: Liberty in the Empire State Building. We had artists redesign 509 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 3: these spaces, so the artist Deanni Whitehawk made a wonderful 510 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 3: mural and the artist Rashid Johnson did this incredible sculpture 511 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 3: in our downstair space that's like a sort of gateway 512 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 3: to the museum. Very Whitney that we would start with 513 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 3: the artists designing the space before we had a restaurant 514 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 3: tour or a food concept. I'm not sure the restaurant 515 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 3: tours would agree that that was the way to go. 516 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: Go into a restaurant that that had been started with 517 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: in the art world, rather than. 518 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 3: The restaurant it started in the art world. There was 519 00:24:57,920 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 3: a moment where we're like, oh my god, I think 520 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 3: we've actually made the food service impossible with Rashid sculpture, 521 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 3: and he let us do some tweaks so that people 522 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 3: could clear tables or get some access to the bar. 523 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 1: If you like listening to Ruthie's Table four, would you 524 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: please make sure to rate and review the podcast on 525 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, O, wherever you get your podcasts. 526 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 2: Thank you. 527 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: If somebody asked me my luxury, if I would say 528 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: going to a museum when it's closed, and a real 529 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 1: luxury for me was being taken with you around the 530 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: Jasper John Show. 531 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:42,640 Speaker 2: Does he like to eat? Jasper? 532 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 3: Jasper is actually a very good cook, and he's very 533 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 3: interested in in ingredients and seasonality in his garden. He's 534 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 3: now ninety four years old. I'm doing the math his birthdays. 535 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 3: In May he would have turned ninety four, so he 536 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 3: was born in nineteen thirty. He is a good cook. 537 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,919 Speaker 3: And when you go to lunch at his house and Sharon, 538 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,920 Speaker 3: which is a very beautiful place to visit. It's an 539 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:11,880 Speaker 3: old stone house in Connecticut, and it has incredible art 540 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 3: in it. 541 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 2: Does he collect or is it mostly his art? 542 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 3: He collects and is his art and his collection has 543 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 3: the most interesting everything in it has this incredible provenance. 544 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 3: It'll be like this is a Rauschenberg painting that he 545 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 3: was given as a gift when they were you know, boyfriends. 546 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 3: And this is an Andy Warhol you know, sculpture box 547 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 3: that he uses just as an end table and gets 548 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 3: a drink ring on it, and he remembers knowing Andy 549 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 3: and seeing this mint Marilyn in the first time that 550 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 3: Leo Costelli showed one. Or here's a sculpture of John 551 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,120 Speaker 3: Chamberlain's that he installed multiple times. But he also collects 552 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,159 Speaker 3: older art and as he became you know, had more means, 553 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 3: he bought Picasso and Duga and seys On and you 554 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 3: see and things with incredible provenoance like a Seyson that 555 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 3: Duga owned. You see this greatane of artistic interest fro 556 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 3: I'm like, wow, I'm looking at Jasper John's looking at 557 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 3: a season that I know Degay used to look at 558 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 3: in his living room. And so it's always a treat 559 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 3: for me. The first time I went there. I'll never forget, 560 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 3: you know, the experience of being welcomed into this world 561 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 3: of you know, these incredible artistic objects, but also things 562 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 3: that he finds interesting that are not as famous, like 563 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,719 Speaker 3: a George or pot or a Hameda bowl from Japan, 564 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 3: or you know, even a kind of funny like little 565 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:34,199 Speaker 3: toy that does something that moves. And he used to 566 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,400 Speaker 3: have a chef for a while that I knew very well. 567 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 3: And when you eat there, like especially if it's at lunch, 568 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 3: they put out a little buffet. And unlike Jonathan, unlike 569 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 3: our home, there's not a lot of everything. You take 570 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,120 Speaker 3: like two little carrots, and you take a little piece 571 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 3: of fish, and you take a little bit of bread 572 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 3: or some kind of soup. He like soup. But everything 573 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 3: feels like sort of perfectly selected and chosen, and you 574 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 3: have quite a few small bites of different things. 575 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 2: Do you thing that reflects his art? Do you think 576 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 2: he'd be paying. 577 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's funny. There's a certain amount of 578 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 3: like a level of consideration and intentionality to it that 579 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 3: nothing will go wasted. He also grew up, you know, 580 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 3: in the depression, and that everything is sort of appreciated 581 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 3: as a kind of complete gesture. Maybe I could see that. 582 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: And what about home now that you have two children 583 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: and you have both of you have very important work days. 584 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 2: What's the word of family balance food wise? 585 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,400 Speaker 3: I am coming up on having met my husband Jonathan Burnham, 586 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 3: whom you mentioned on your first book. Oh yeah, I 587 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 3: think you met over food. 588 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 2: Did you meet it on a first date? 589 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 3: We met over it was drinks. Our first date was 590 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 3: a blind day. We were set up by a mutual friend, 591 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 3: almost exactly ten years ago. We're about a month shy 592 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 3: of having known each other for ten years. And I 593 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 3: would say it was a good of food. I kind 594 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 3: of knew. I got on a plane right after that 595 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 3: date and I thought, I've just met the guy I'm 596 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 3: going to marry. 597 00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: I remember Rose and I sort of sitting at his desk, 598 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: probably on the desk grows stretched out, you know, writing 599 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: the introduction to the book. 600 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he loved food. He loves he loves food. 601 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: So you married a man who really how does that feel? 602 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 2: Having one, I mean partner great. 603 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 3: He loves food certainly much more than I do. And 604 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 3: everything is taken care of. And I think his love 605 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 3: of food comes almost from a fear as a child 606 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 3: of privation, which is a weird thing to say about 607 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 3: someone who grew up certainly with means. But I guess 608 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 3: in his household there just wasn't like in my household 609 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 3: growing up, there was always food. There was coffee cake. 610 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 3: You never sat down in a Jewish household like ours 611 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 3: without your grandparents without eating. You know. It was just 612 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 3: there was lots and lots of food. And I think 613 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 3: he didn't grow up like that, you know. And he 614 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 3: remembers his father was actually Japanese prisoner of war in 615 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 3: you know, World War two, and thinking about like being 616 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 3: hungry is something that he worried about, even though that's 617 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 3: you know, ridiculous in terms of our financial situation, but 618 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 3: it's just a kind of it's there deep down. He 619 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 3: talks about it, I'm sure, or with a shrink that 620 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 3: you know, the house just always has to have lots 621 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 3: and lots of food, whereas I, as I said, would 622 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,959 Speaker 3: have just like an empty fridge. Our fridge is so 623 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 3: full now. And he loves to cook, and he cooks 624 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 3: almost six days a week. And this is a person 625 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 3: who we could come home late from a party and 626 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 3: I would just like scrounge around like a rodent for 627 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 3: a cracker, and he would like put on water to 628 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 3: boil and make pasta. And he cooks all the food 629 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 3: for our children, and there's always delicious, delicious food at home. Interestingly, 630 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 3: he reads cookbooks for pleasure almost every morning with his 631 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 3: coffee while he eats his breakfast. 632 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,479 Speaker 1: Do you think he's thinking about because some people do 633 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: wake up in the morning and think, what am I 634 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: going to? 635 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 2: Oh? 636 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 3: Definitely, he thinks. I can't wait for I don't even 637 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 3: eat breakfast. I have coffee, you know. He looks forward 638 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 3: to that first meal, and he reads cookbooks the way 639 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 3: people read like newspapers. With his coffee and his toast. 640 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: Food is a celebration, communication, it's a sharing. 641 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 2: It's also a comfort. 642 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 3: Yes. 643 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: And so if we were for our last question, if 644 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: we were thinking about food for you, Scott, being something 645 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: that will give you comfort, is there something that you 646 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: might go to when you when you need that. 647 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 3: I mean a dry gen martinie that'll cook. 648 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 2: Is that a comfort? 649 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 3: I'm not a comfort food eater, you know. I hear 650 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 3: these people who say I need cookies or something. 651 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 2: I mean it's a dry martine is a good as 652 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 2: you know. 653 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 3: I might be more of a comfort drinker than comfort 654 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 3: eat my Jonathan ow he says, you know, like if 655 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 3: he's ordering fresh director when he goes, do you want anything, Darling, 656 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 3: And I might say, just make sure there's some tomic, 657 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 3: you know, But otherwise I'll eat whatever is there. I 658 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 3: enjoy the gesture, whatever it is. But Luckily I don't 659 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 3: have a lot of opinions. 660 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: About it, so does Olivia hunger and I'm quite personally starving. 661 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 2: Should we go eat? 662 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: Yes? 663 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 3: Absolutely, I'd love to thank you so much