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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 1: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 1: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent

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Speaker 1: coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about,

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Speaker 1: it just means the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 1: But enough with that, let's get to the show. Good morning, everybody,

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Speaker 1: Happy Monday. We have an amazing show for everybody today.

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Speaker 1: When do we have Crystal? Indeed, we do lots of

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Speaker 1: big stories breaking this morning. We are still on Trump

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Speaker 1: indictment watch. That could come potentially at any time, so

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Speaker 1: we will keep an eye on that. Also, this comes

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Speaker 1: as he just had his first official big rally. It

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Speaker 1: was in an unusual notable place, Waco, Texas. We'll dig

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Speaker 1: into all of that. We're also going to dig into

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Speaker 1: the debate over banning TikTok, some interesting reactions, some interesting

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Speaker 1: videos to show you from the congressional hearings around that

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Speaker 1: Putin is announcing that he is moving tactical nukes into Belarus.

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Speaker 1: What will that mean? What are the dangers there? Also

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Speaker 1: the US with new airstrikes in Syria. What the hell

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Speaker 1: are we even doing in Syria at this point? Great question.

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Speaker 1: We can dive into that as well. And a new

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Speaker 1: report about all of the grifters from the US who

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Speaker 1: have flocked to Ukraine, including one Malcolm Nance. Also very

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Speaker 1: excited to talk to Tim Urban on the show today.

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Speaker 1: He's out with a book called What's Our Problem that

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Speaker 1: has gotten a lot of attention that I know many

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Speaker 1: of you have been really interested in as well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right, and don't forget We've got the premium show

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Speaker 1: on Spotify. I know a lot of you guys have

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Speaker 1: been taking advantage of that. So at Breakingpoints dot Com

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Speaker 1: you can watch the full premium show there on Spotify.

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Speaker 1: We are reducing the lag time and all of that

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Speaker 1: as best as we possibly can. Shout out to the

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Speaker 1: team at Supercast and at Spotify for supporting us. I

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Speaker 1: know that they want us to build an awesome alternative

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Speaker 1: so that you can have and watch the show anywhere

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Speaker 1: that you want. So there you go, Breakingpoints dot Com

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Speaker 1: for premium. And one last thing before we dive into

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Speaker 1: the show, Sagawater and to tell the people why you're

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Speaker 1: not in the studio today. Yes, that's right, Today's kind

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Speaker 1: of a promotion day for breaking Points Crystals on Russell

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Speaker 1: Brand's show. I'm going on the Flagrant podcast. So I'm

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Speaker 1: here in New York City. I can offer a little

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Speaker 1: bit of eyewitness accounts about the security situation in midtown

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Speaker 1: Manhattan whenever we talk about the possible Trump indictment block

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Speaker 1: and all of that. So I'm on the ground for

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Speaker 1: you folks. But more importantly, Crystal and I are getting

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Speaker 1: out there and making sure that people can hear the

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Speaker 1: awesome news about what we're doing here and bringing people

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Speaker 1: the news. There you go. I'm sure it's going to

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Speaker 1: be a great podcast. I can't wait to watch it myself.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's get to the news here. Big Trump

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Speaker 1: rally over the weekend, as I said, happening in Waco, Texas,

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Speaker 1: at the same time that we're right in the middle

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Speaker 1: of the thirtieth anniversary of the Siege of Waco. So

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Speaker 1: a lot of people drawing the parallels with Trump trying

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Speaker 1: to make a point about government overreach and persecution, just

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Speaker 1: as of course it was outrageous government overreach and persecution

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Speaker 1: thirty years ago. Some pretty wild sounds coming out of

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Speaker 1: that rally. That's start with potentially the wildest moment, which

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Speaker 1: was Ted Nugent calling Zelensky some names. Let's take a

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Speaker 1: listen to that. I want my money back. I did

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Speaker 1: not authorize any money to Ukraine to some homosexual weight weirdo.

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Speaker 1: I want my money back. What you think of that one, Sagar? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'm against a lot of additional

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Speaker 1: a t Ukraine. I'm definitely skeptical of Celenski, but in

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Speaker 1: terms of ad hominem attacks and all that, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem like this one, is it. If anything, Ten, I

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Speaker 1: think you're not doing the skeptical case for Ukraine aid

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Speaker 1: any favors by acting as well. Yes, fair, Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: also it's such a throwback to like, you know, twenty

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Speaker 1: years ago or thirty years ago, to just be like

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Speaker 1: call people gay as some sort of a slur. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: that was Ted Nugent. How things got kicked off. But

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Speaker 1: you know a lot of people were watching the rally

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Speaker 1: speech from Trump himself to see exactly what he would

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Speaker 1: say about his own potential prosecution and indictment and also

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Speaker 1: about his potential opponent here, Ron DeSantis. Let's take a

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Speaker 1: listen to Trump going in on DeSantis, and also the

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Speaker 1: crowd reaction, which was interesting as well. Take a listen.

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Speaker 1: When a man comes to me, tears in his eyes.

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Speaker 1: He said, almost nothing in the palls, and he's fighting

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Speaker 1: somebody that said forty two and he's got almost thirty

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Speaker 1: million dollars in the bank. He said, almost nothing. He's

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Speaker 1: got no cash. And I said, I can't give you

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Speaker 1: an endorsement. There's no way you can win. You're dead.

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Speaker 1: But he fought a little bit, like one hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty who certainly know Jim Jordan that I can tell you.

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Speaker 1: He fought a little bit, just a little bit on

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Speaker 1: impeachment hoax number one, impeachment hoaks number two, meaning on television.

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Speaker 1: Because I didn't know him very well, but I saw him.

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Speaker 1: So he came and he really wanted I said, you

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Speaker 1: can't win. Can you how he can win? Sir? If

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Speaker 1: you endorse me, I'll win. Please, please, sir, endorse me.

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Speaker 1: I said, let's give it a shot. Ron and I

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Speaker 1: endorsed him, and he became like a rocket ship. Within

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Speaker 1: one day, the race was over. He got denomination. Now

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Speaker 1: he's been telling this story about Rond de Santis for

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Speaker 1: a while. Now it seems to get more and more

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Speaker 1: over the top every time he tells that the tears

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Speaker 1: were streaming from his eyes. The crowd is kind of quiet.

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Speaker 1: They did chuckle like, kind of in spite of themselves

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Speaker 1: at one point when he was talking about the whole

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Speaker 1: endorsement situation. Certainly not the same as the way he

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Speaker 1: would get the crowd going with his attacks on Hillary.

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Speaker 1: But you know, they stand there and they listen to it,

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Speaker 1: and I think it shows once again, Sager, that while

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Speaker 1: he is out there, you know, saying whatever he wants

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Speaker 1: about Rond de Santis, DeSantis is kind of, you know,

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Speaker 1: take a little jab here or there, but really not

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Speaker 1: anywhere near in the fight the way the Trump is well,

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Speaker 1: didn't you hear, Crystal is silly season. It's a ficial

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Speaker 1: and that's what this is. Look I mean, in terms

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Speaker 1: of the crowd reaction, Ron DeSantis is still viewed fondly

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Speaker 1: amongst many Republicans. Nobody hates Rond de Santis, even in

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Speaker 1: the way that many people came to hate Ted Cruz. However,

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Speaker 1: that came after a prolonged battle. Wei should also remember

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Speaker 1: Ted did come in second in the GOP primary, and

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Speaker 1: there was a significant amount of overlap between Ted Cruz

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Speaker 1: voters and Trump voters that ultimately sealed the deal for

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Speaker 1: Trump with the primary, and of course all of them

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Speaker 1: showed up to vote for him in twenty sixteen. So

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Speaker 1: I would not take a lot of this crowd reaction.

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Speaker 1: The fact that they didn't boo is probable and are

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Speaker 1: really just willing to sit there and let kind of

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Speaker 1: Trump air his grievances. I think that is still a

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Speaker 1: potent symbol. And look, we can just all we need

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Speaker 1: to do is state take a step back, look at

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Speaker 1: the polling. GOP. National polling across the board has been

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Speaker 1: terrible for Ron DeSantis. DeSantis's allies are out, you know,

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Speaker 1: with recent like head to head poles which show him

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Speaker 1: either tied in some of the early states. I actually

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Speaker 1: find that kind of nefarious for a couple of reasons,

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Speaker 1: which is, since when did can we imagine this was

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Speaker 1: going to be a head to head race? Like you

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Speaker 1: can't say, well, head to head, you know, I'm tied

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Speaker 1: with this person, but okay, that's great, but you know,

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Speaker 1: head to head, Ted Cruz would have beat Trump in

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Speaker 1: Iowa and in New Hampshire, but it wasn't head to

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Speaker 1: head because there are multiple other candidates in the race,

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Speaker 1: and there are already multiple other candidates here in the race.

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Speaker 1: So look, the strategy is working. He's locking his people down.

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Speaker 1: Overall GOP national polls are not very good for Ron DeSantis,

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Speaker 1: the fact that people are willing to sit through them,

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Speaker 1: and you know, you can't deny from Trump's position, the

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Speaker 1: reason that he's doing this is to show what the

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Speaker 1: power dynamic is. He's like, no, you serve me, not

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Speaker 1: the other way around. You can't be my successor if

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Speaker 1: I'm the one who's in the race and I'm the

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Speaker 1: one who anointed you. I've told you in the audience

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Speaker 1: before I interviewed Trump right after the twenty eighteen elections,

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Speaker 1: was one of the first people to actually interview him

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Speaker 1: about his midterm performance, the very first, even though it

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Speaker 1: was a disaster for him, of course, but guess what,

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Speaker 1: even then in twenty eighteen, he said, look at this guy,

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Speaker 1: Ron DeSantis, he was nothing. I endorsed him. He shot up.

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Speaker 1: This has been deep in his mind now for years.

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Speaker 1: So I mean that was almost four or five years ago. Well,

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Speaker 1: you're one hundred percent correct that it's all about the

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Speaker 1: power dynamic. I mean to show him you know, the

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Speaker 1: way that Trump paints it as DeSantis is practically they're

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Speaker 1: groveling with tears streaming down his face, and he knows

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Speaker 1: he's nothing without me. It's an absolute sort of like

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Speaker 1: alpha power move. And DeSantis basically has decided and I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure this is even the wrong choice to effectively

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Speaker 1: take it. And you know, I've been thinking a lot

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Speaker 1: about this saga because like, okay, what would be a

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Speaker 1: better strategy for him? And I'm not sure that there

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Speaker 1: is one, because it's not like DeSantis can compete with

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Speaker 1: Trump on this terrain. It's not like everybody who tried

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Speaker 1: to get down in the mud with Trump in twenty

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Speaker 1: sixteen ended up just getting instantly obliterated. So probably his

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Speaker 1: best option is what he's doing, which is to kind

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Speaker 1: of stay quiet, to kind of, you know, take a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a job to show he's just not

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Speaker 1: completely getting rolled over by this dude, and that he

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Speaker 1: is taking notice and that he has some ability to

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Speaker 1: punch back, but to hope that some other circumstance takes

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Speaker 1: Trump down, that he has nothing to do with and

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Speaker 1: that he's basically their second in line. If that does happen,

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Speaker 1: that probably is his best play, And I think what

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Speaker 1: you bring up with Ted Cruz is a really good point. Now,

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Speaker 1: I do think Ron DeSantis is in a better position

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Speaker 1: than Ted Cruz ever was. But it's easy to forget

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Speaker 1: how much of a darling Ted Cruz was with the

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Speaker 1: Republican base during the Tea Party era. I mean, he

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Speaker 1: also had his own national brand and identity and you know,

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Speaker 1: a lot of warm feelings among a lot of Republican voters,

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Speaker 1: and ultimately it really didn't matter once Trump decided to

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Speaker 1: light into him. It was basically all over. While DeSantis

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Speaker 1: and his allies may be citing a few new poles

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Speaker 1: one out of Iowa, one out of New Hampshire, Trump

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Speaker 1: but the rally had his own favorite poll that he

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Speaker 1: decided to tout. This was literally a Twitter poll by

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Speaker 1: a Twitter user named I Kid You not Cat turned

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Speaker 1: two that Trump cites favorably. At this rally tagalism. You'll

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Speaker 1: see some numbers that are incredible. You'll see some numbers

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Speaker 1: that we just had one today sixteen Trump and I

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Speaker 1: think nineteen to shake themonius. Yeah, we were at sixty

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Speaker 1: nine and one today. Classic there, classic move, citing a

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Speaker 1: literal Twitter poll as evidence of his dominance in the race. Amazing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: a little too much emphasis there from Trump on the

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Speaker 1: sixty nine. I mean, look, with Trump, he'll take my

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Speaker 1: favorite thing. When he was in office, he'd be like

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Speaker 1: ninety eight percent of Republican support Trump, thank you. And

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Speaker 1: it would come from a poll that showed him at

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Speaker 1: like thirty two percent approval, but with ninety percent with Trump, listen,

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Speaker 1: I mean, no matter what the numbers are. I've also

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Speaker 1: been thinking a lot about it too. I got a

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Speaker 1: very thoughtful message from somebody who's been watching the show

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Speaker 1: for a long time, Chrisonally. He said, you and Crystal

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Speaker 1: were big advocates for Bernie Sanders to go after Joe

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Speaker 1: Biden in two thousand and sixty or twenty twenty in

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Speaker 1: the primary, So why are you not saying the same

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Speaker 1: thing about DeSantis. Well, I think it's important to note

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Speaker 1: that Joe Biden never had the level of approval amongst

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Speaker 1: a Democratic base, and still doesn't that Donald Trump exactly.

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Speaker 1: That still doesn't that Donald Trump did in terms of

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Speaker 1: his beloved nature, and so that's why I think it

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Speaker 1: would backfire. In fact, one of the things that we

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Speaker 1: really identified at that time was that there was an

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Speaker 1: opening for a critique against Biden in the primary with

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Speaker 1: a certain subset of voters that could have resonated in

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Speaker 1: some of those early states that Bernie explicitly chose not

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Speaker 1: to take, whereas in this case with DeSantis, there is

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Speaker 1: not the similar opening lane of Republicans who want to

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Speaker 1: hear a criticism of Trump. And mainly the reason is

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Speaker 1: that many Republicans conflate any criticism of Trump. And by

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Speaker 1: the way, I'm not saying this is a correct thing.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it should be this way, but they

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Speaker 1: conflate that with going soft being a tool of the left,

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Speaker 1: part of the reason why people hate Liz Cheney and

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Speaker 1: really any tepic criticism of Trump whatsoever. So it's one

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Speaker 1: of those where he is in just such a pickle

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Speaker 1: that I agree with you, he's probably doing the best

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Speaker 1: thing he possibly can. But that just illustrates to me

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Speaker 1: where as long as Trump is in the race, like,

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Speaker 1: it's just not going to happen, and I can't imagine

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Speaker 1: to try to subject myself to all of this. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this answer is a young man. He's like forty forty

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Speaker 1: three years old, his small children. It's like, why would

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Speaker 1: you want to go through this? Yeah. Well, I mean

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Speaker 1: that's a great segue into the next piece. But before

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Speaker 1: we get to it, I did want to ask you, sar,

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Speaker 1: what'd you think of the choice of Waco, Texas for

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Speaker 1: this rally? Oh? Very smart actually, because you know, obviously

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Speaker 1: we cover we had David Thibodeau on the show, The

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Speaker 1: Waco Survivor. The segment did incredibly well, and it's not

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Speaker 1: a surprise. There's still quite a bit of organic, I

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Speaker 1: would say, interest in what happened at Waco, and especially

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Speaker 1: with the rise of the Internet and the ability for

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Speaker 1: a newer generation people like us whose lives weren't defined

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Speaker 1: by Waco as a seminal political event, to kind of

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Speaker 1: re examine it in the cold light of day, and

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Speaker 1: everybody's like, this was a complete disaster. So I think

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Speaker 1: it was a smart move, especially you know, politically, trying

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Speaker 1: to conflate it with January six and look at government overreach,

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Speaker 1: which is something that the base feels especially passionate about.

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Speaker 1: Let me spend a second there too, which is a

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Speaker 1: lot of people talked about. They're like, why is Trump

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Speaker 1: talking about January six when clearly, you know, MAGA stopped

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Speaker 1: the steal and all that was such a disaster for

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Speaker 1: him in the mid terms. I actually agree with that,

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Speaker 1: but that's general election analysis, that's not primary analysis. That's

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Speaker 1: right amongst the primary, amongst the base, people who watch

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Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson every single night, amongst the Fox News dads,

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Speaker 1: they are obsessed with January six, with the political persecution

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Speaker 1: and all that. So it's an easy way for him

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Speaker 1: to again conflate the entire Republican movement and persecution of

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Speaker 1: them and himself as a bulwark against the left and

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Speaker 1: elevate him once again over Ron DeSantis. Well, this is

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Speaker 1: the thing that Trump does so effectively and has always

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Speaker 1: done so effectively. He defines and selects the landscape of

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Speaker 1: issues that he wants to make central to a political

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Speaker 1: campaign and forces people to pick a side, to be

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Speaker 1: on one side or the other. And with regards to

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Speaker 1: the midterms, which yeah, we're you know, really ended up

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Speaker 1: being kind of a disaster for Trump and the candidates

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Speaker 1: that he endorsed, But in terms of the Republican primaries

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Speaker 1: leading into those midterms, Stop the Deal was one of

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Speaker 1: the key issues, if not the key issue. He managed

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Speaker 1: to make it the central dividing line in the Republican

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Speaker 1: Party and it's one that is very difficult for candidates

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Speaker 1: like Ronda Santis who want to maintain elite donor support

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Speaker 1: to try to navigate. So it's another for him. I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it will be horrible for him in the

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Speaker 1: general election. I think it's horrible for the country, But

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Speaker 1: in terms of a Republican primary electorate, this is an

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Speaker 1: issue that's very beneficial to him. So you can see

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Speaker 1: the way that he's sort of already setting the table

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Speaker 1: with his position on Ukraine, which again Rond Dea Santis

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Speaker 1: has struggled to navigate. He sounded very different depending on

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Speaker 1: the day and depending on the interview, even though I

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Speaker 1: think if you look at his comments in totality, I

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Speaker 1: don't think they're directly contradictory of one another, but clearly

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Speaker 1: the tone was different with Tucker Carlson versus when he

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Speaker 1: was sitting with Piers Morgan, and it becomes clear that

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Speaker 1: you know, he's leaving himself some wiggle room and looking

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Speaker 1: kind of like a typical politician trying to navigate Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: So that's been a difficult one for him. The other

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Speaker 1: one that I think is so intelligent, and that is

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways going back to classic Trump

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, is him leaning into social Security and Medicare

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Speaker 1: and very much like which side are you on on

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Speaker 1: that one? That's another really challenging one for Ronda Santis,

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Speaker 1: but also basically every other potential Republican contender in the field.

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Speaker 1: And then when you throw stop the Steel into that

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Speaker 1: mix again, that's a difficult one. That's going to be

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Speaker 1: a difficult one for Mike Pence, that's going to be

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Speaker 1: a difficult one with for Nikki Haley. That's going to

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Speaker 1: be a difficult one for Ronda Santis because this is

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Speaker 1: an issue where they're going to try to have it

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Speaker 1: both ways. They're going to try to do some version

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Speaker 1: of the what you always call the high browse stop

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Speaker 1: the steal, and that is not going to be acceptable

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Speaker 1: to the base. And Trump is not going to let

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Speaker 1: that slide. So I think the landscape of issues that

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Speaker 1: he is laid out is making it very difficult for

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Speaker 1: Ronda Santis and all of these other contenders to try

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Speaker 1: to navigate. Yeah, I think you're right on that, Crystal,

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Speaker 1: all right, So let's get to it's not just us

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Speaker 1: that have some questions about whether Ronda Santis will be

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Speaker 1: able to ultimately succeed in this Republican primary, and whether

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Speaker 1: there's really any move on the chessboard that he could

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Speaker 1: make that would enable his victory without some extra exogynous

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Speaker 1: event occurring to effectively take Trump out of the running gun.

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Speaker 1: Put this up on the screen. This is a report

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Speaker 1: from NBC News. The headline here is Ron DeSantis's donors

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Speaker 1: and allies question if he's ready for twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: They say, at a recent gathering of sixteen prominent Republicans,

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Speaker 1: a number of DeSantis supporters discussed if he should run

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Speaker 1: against Trump or wait until twenty twenty eight. Let me

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Speaker 1: read a bit of this report because I think it

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Speaker 1: is quite stunning. One of the individuals strategists they interviewed

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Speaker 1: for this had I thought a really great quote. He said,

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Speaker 1: DeSantis is doing a book tour, he's barnstorming the country,

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Speaker 1: and his polls are going down. Meanwhile, Trump's potentially under

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Speaker 1: indictment and Trump's going up. It's just not a good

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Speaker 1: look for DeSantis. The piece begins by saying, Ron DeSantis

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Speaker 1: maybe missing his moment. A number of the Florida governor's

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Speaker 1: donors and allies are worried his recent stumbles suggests he

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Speaker 1: might not be ready for a brutal fight against Trump.

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Speaker 1: Some feel he needs to accelerate his timeline to run

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Speaker 1: for the GUP presidential nomination and begin directly confronting Trump

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Speaker 1: if sees to have any chance of thwarting the president's

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Speaker 1: former president's momentum. Others believe DeSantis should just stude step

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Speaker 1: Trump altogether and wait until twenty twenty eight to run.

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Speaker 1: This was based on some reporting they did at this

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Speaker 1: Sunday luncheon following a Red Cross ball in Palm Beach, Florida.

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Speaker 1: So this was in Florida. This was again not a

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Speaker 1: bunch of Trump backers. These are DeSantis people, or at

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Speaker 1: least Desanti's friendly. One attendee, you know, describe them as

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Speaker 1: a mix of DeSantis backers and Trump's skeptics, and they

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Speaker 1: were all discussing misgivings about the governor standing for the future.

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Speaker 1: They liked him, many of them might even support him.

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Speaker 1: The person who was at the event set of DeSantis,

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Speaker 1: but they thought on ballots his long term future was

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Speaker 1: better without him trying to take Trump head on. He

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Speaker 1: will get scarred up by Trump, the person added. They

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Speaker 1: also mentioned this conservative billionaire shipping Goods Magnet Richard Julian

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Speaker 1: and his wife Elizabeth. Elizabeth who's five hundred thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: in combined contributions, ranked them among the most generous donors

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Speaker 1: to DeSantis' previous campaign, and they said a purpose person

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Speaker 1: with familiar with their strategy said on spending, they are

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Speaker 1: pumping the brakes. The polling really made different people pause.

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Speaker 1: And you know, this all comes after DeSantis has sounded

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Speaker 1: different notes on Ukraine, really in particular stumbling and delay,

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Speaker 1: how he reacted to Trump's indictment, and just I think

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Speaker 1: also the increasingly apparent landscape where because Trump is dominating

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Speaker 1: the news so much, and because these various indictments are

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Speaker 1: likely to come down and really make him the focal

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Speaker 1: point of the party once again, it just makes the

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Speaker 1: landscape damn near impossible for anyone to try to navigate

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Speaker 1: and get ahead of him in the polls. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: very difficult. I thought that the Ukraine thing that he

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Speaker 1: did was a massive mistake because he tried to have

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Speaker 1: it both ways, you know, to Tucker Carlston territorial dispute.

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Speaker 1: He takes the heat for it. The donors come out

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Speaker 1: and actually get upset with him. And then immediately does

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Speaker 1: an about face with Piers Morgan and now is like, oh,

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Speaker 1: Putin is a war criminal. He must be held to account. Now,

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Speaker 1: as you said, technically on paper, he didn't reverse anything

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Speaker 1: that he said. They're not intellectually inconsistent that said, this

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Speaker 1: is about tonal and rhetoric comparison. Rhetorically, Clearly it was

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Speaker 1: a backtrack, and he actually accused the mainstream media of

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Speaker 1: distorting some of his comments. So it's like, well, which

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Speaker 1: way is it, Governor. Did you say it was a

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Speaker 1: territory or dispute. Are you skeptical of a to Ukraine

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Speaker 1: or do you think that we should take a more

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Speaker 1: hawkish position towards Russia. Obviously this is a donor backed pressure,

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Speaker 1: and this ultimately shows you why Trump has always been

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Speaker 1: able to be successful in the first place. Like, yes,

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Speaker 1: he might be do the bidding of the donors inadvertently

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Speaker 1: whenever he allows the tax cuts and all of that

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Speaker 1: to go through, but on issues, whenever he diverts from them,

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Speaker 1: he's just going to say whatever he thinks. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I have no idea how much of that pressure or

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Speaker 1: whatever actually does come to Mayor, but this seemed quite

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Speaker 1: obvious of a pressure campaign, and it's also one where

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Speaker 1: if he can't stand his ground on Ukraine, then you know,

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Speaker 1: how are you going to stand your ground on many

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Speaker 1: of the other fights that you're going to have to

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Speaker 1: now navigate where the base feels very differently than mainstream

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Speaker 1: public opinion. Overall, I thought it was political disaster the

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Speaker 1: way that he handled himself there and actually gave a

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Speaker 1: great gift to the Trump campaign, who is smacking him

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Speaker 1: over the head with Ukraine, for sure, no doubt about it.

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Speaker 1: And do I think that Ukraine will be the number

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Speaker 1: one issue for Republican primary voters, No, I do not.

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Speaker 1: Most voters don't vote on foreign policy. But do I

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Speaker 1: think that this whole episode gives off an incredible stench

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Speaker 1: of like politician with his finger in the wind, trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out the right answer of where he should

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Speaker 1: be rather than what he actually thinks. Yes, absolutely, and

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Speaker 1: so in that way, I do think it is damaging

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Speaker 1: to him, even though you know, again, I don't think

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Speaker 1: that Republican primary voters, I don't want to pretend they're

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Speaker 1: following all the ins and outs of how Ron DeSantis

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Speaker 1: like navigated Ukraine. In a couple of different interviews, but again,

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Speaker 1: this is we're talking about an elite donor set that

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Speaker 1: he's going to be very dependent on if and when

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Speaker 1: he runs for president. They're certainly paying close attention to

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Speaker 1: this and clearly have a lot of nervousness around not

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Speaker 1: just the Ukraine answers, but also and you picked up

427
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 1: on this right away to Sager that there was such

428
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:10,480
Speaker 1: a delay in how he responded to potential Trump indictment

429
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 1: that it took him days and days before even said

430
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:14,680
Speaker 1: a word about it, and then when he did say

431
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 1: something about it, he once again tried to have it

432
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 1: both ways, tried to take a shot at Trump over

433
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 1: you know, hush money to porn stars, which the base

434
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 1: did not take kindly too, in which there's a big

435
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,680
Speaker 1: backlash online over, but also then going after you know

436
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,440
Speaker 1: the quote unquote George Soros back da. So so yeah,

437
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,920
Speaker 1: I think there's just an increasing realization this landscape is

438
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,359
Speaker 1: going to be very difficult, and like we've been saying

439
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 1: the whole time, the indictments again might be bad for

440
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,119
Speaker 1: Trump in a general election, but in terms of the

441
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 1: Republican base, it's just like when mar A Lago was raided.

442
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 1: It forces people to come out and defend him. It

443
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:53,160
Speaker 1: sort of strengthens his hand within the Republican Party. And

444
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 1: this potential indictment that we may or may not get

445
00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 1: this week is likely to be just the first of

446
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 1: a number of potential indictments here. Let's go ahead and

447
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about what might happen this week

448
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 1: now as a refresher. The indictment we're talking about right

449
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 1: now has to do with the hush money payments to

450
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 1: Stormy Daniels leading up to the twenty sixteen campaign. The

451
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 1: allegation here potentially is that there was both a business fraud,

452
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 1: which would be typically a misdemeanor where the payments were

453
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 1: misclassified in terms of his record keeping, but also the

454
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 1: way that they're potentially interpreting this as a felony is

455
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 1: that this was in service of campaign finance fraud, and

456
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,159
Speaker 1: so that is the legal theory that they may be

457
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,920
Speaker 1: pursuing with this grand jury in Manhattan. Trump, of course,

458
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:45,679
Speaker 1: at his rally, reacted to these potential indictments. Let's take

459
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,360
Speaker 1: a listen to what he had to say. The new

460
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 1: weapon being used by out of control, unhinged Democrats to

461
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:57,880
Speaker 1: cheat on election is criminally investigating a candidate bad publicity

462
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 1: and all you get bad publicity. It's the craziest thing.

463
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 1: I got bad publicity, and my poll numbers have gone

464
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,120
Speaker 1: through the roof. Would you explain this to me? Explain

465
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:11,200
Speaker 1: that to me, Dan, mister congressman, you got to explain

466
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 1: it to me because nobody else has ever heard of it.

467
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 1: But you know what, it gets so much publicity that

468
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 1: the case actually gets adjudicated in the press and people

469
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 1: see it's bullshit, and they go and they say it's unfair.

470
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 1: Also worth noting he had preprinted signs that plaggards that

471
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 1: those fans were holding up that said winch hunt on it.

472
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 1: So he clearly is leaning into this fite zager. Yeah

473
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: he is. I mean, and again this is probably one

474
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 1: of the most potent things that he has in further

475
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: Republican base because they view him so tightly as a

476
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 1: representative of them, and any persecution of him is one

477
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: that is by definition and de facto persecution of them.

478
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: So that's actually why the snowball nature of many of

479
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: the law enforcement investigations and the fact that they appear

480
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: again appear to be starting with this hush money bookkeeping

481
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 1: scheme about to a porn star. It just seems like

482
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 1: a major mistake because narratively, what you would have wanted

483
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 1: to start with is the Fulton County case about stop

484
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 1: the steal, or a federal case about stop the steal,

485
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: or the secret document. Now, obviously with the classified documents,

486
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: that one went a little bit out the window after

487
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 1: Joe Biden himself had classified documents themselves. So the best

488
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 1: one they really had was Fulton County and January sixth.

489
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: Starting with the bookkeeping one, it's going to snowball now

490
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 1: all into one thing where people aren't necessarily going to

491
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 1: parse the details of every single prosecution investigation and all that. So, look,

492
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 1: we don't know. Again, it's Monday. We don't yet have

493
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: an indication whether the grand jury is going to meet

494
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 1: and Trump will be indicted tomorrow. As I said, I'm

495
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 1: here in Manhattan, and there is quite a bit of

496
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 1: security in Midtown, including Secret Service. Nobody actually quite knows

497
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: what's going on. Specifically it's around the Peninsula Hotel, but

498
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,919
Speaker 1: the entire block is blocked off. Their garbage trucks everywhere,

499
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 1: their Secret Service detail, their dogs ypds out in full foursome.

500
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 1: You know, all things certainly smell of Trump. Why he

501
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 1: would though he would be staying at a hotel and

502
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: not at his own house. I don't certainly know, but

503
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 1: it's one of those where there's quite a bit of speculation.

504
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: Here in Manhattan. There is security, I know, down at

505
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: the courthouse and elsewhere in preparation for any type of indictment.

506
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: So at the very least people in the city appear

507
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 1: to be preparing or very authorities here in Manhattan are

508
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 1: preparing for something. And apparently I look this up, the

509
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: grand jury typically meets on Monday, so today would be

510
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: one of the typical meeting days Wednesday and Thursday. Last

511
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: week we're reported they canceled the Wednesday and Thursday meetings.

512
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 1: They didn't come in, and they didn't meet, So potentially

513
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: there could be something happening today, but no one knows.

514
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: And the other thing that I just think it's really

515
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: important to throw out there is we've been taking as

516
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: kind of like a you know, a done deal that

517
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: Trump is going to be indicted by this grand jury,

518
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 1: and it's likely that he is, but I just want

519
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: to say that there's no guarant You're still talking about

520
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 1: human beings who have been presented with certain evidence in

521
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 1: a case and will be making up their minds whether

522
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: or not to indict him. So it's not like this process. Yes,

523
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 1: it's controlled. The process is controlled by Alvin Bragg, but

524
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: it's still dependent on regular citizens of New York to

525
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: ultimately make the decision here. And I just want to

526
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 1: put out there that there are absolutely no guarantees that

527
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 1: they will decide that they should indict him. President former

528
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 1: President Trump, also reacting on true social as he does,

529
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 1: put this up on the screen. This was apparently a

530
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: late night post where he's warning of death and destruction

531
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 1: if he gets arrested. Let me read you the whole thing,

532
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: and says what kind of person can charge another person,

533
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: in this case, a former president in the US who

534
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 1: got more votes than any's sitting president in history and

535
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 1: leading candidate by far for the Republican Party nomination with

536
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 1: a crime when it is known by all that no

537
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: crime has been committed, and also known that potential death

538
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: and destruction in such a false charge could be catastrophic

539
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 1: for our country. And who would do such a thing?

540
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:07,199
Speaker 1: Only a degenerate psychopath that truly hates the USA and saga.

541
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: This reminded me of after the mar A Lago raid,

542
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 1: Trump made some similar comments, basically threatening, you know, nice

543
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: country you got there. If I'm indicted, it's all going

544
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 1: to go to hell. Yeah, I mean this is vintage Trump.

545
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 1: He's never been above using it. He quite literally already

546
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: did it. So it's one of those people should probably

547
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 1: take it seriously. In terms of how people will react, though,

548
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: that's the real open question. I have no idea. As

549
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 1: we actually previously showed, not a lot of people showed

550
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: up to the planned protest outside of the Manhattan DA's office,

551
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: even though that was called or at least stoked a

552
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: bit by Trump and some of his allies. So whether

553
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: they will and will heed the call and whether they

554
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: view it even as a fruitful exercise for protest is

555
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: actually one where we really don't know the answer to

556
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: that question yet. Yes, so will there actually be death

557
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 1: and destruction? I guess We're just going to have to

558
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: wait and find out another great day. I'll see what happens.

559
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: We'll see what happens as they as the Trump always said,

560
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: all right, let's talk a little bit about TikTok. I

561
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: know that there was a lot going on over the weekend.

562
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: We covered previously how the TikTok CEO appeared before Congress.

563
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: At this point, we will show you some of his comments,

564
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 1: but more interestingly what happened is that there was effectively

565
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: unanimous a position on the committee itself around national security

566
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: issues surrounding TikTok. Overall, the hearing is regarded as a

567
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: massive disgrace for the TikTok CEO. It didn't handle himself

568
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: particularly well. Also as a disgrace tough many members of Congress,

569
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: which we will absolutely get to. The major debate though,

570
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: happening right now, has been sparked by Representative AOC who

571
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: posted her first TikTok ever over the weekend in when

572
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: she came out against banning TikTok. Wants to make sure

573
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: that we showed all of you and broke down some

574
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: of what she said. Let's take a listen. The United

575
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: States has never before banned a social media company from existence,

576
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: from operating in our borders, and this is an app

577
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: that has over one hundred and fifty million Americans on it.

578
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: Some of the arguments about banning TikTok have come with

579
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: respect to discussions around Chinese surveillance and utilization of data

580
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: that is tracked and the enormous amount of tracking on

581
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: US citizens and data that is harvested by TikTok, and

582
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: they say, because of this egregious amount of data harvesting,

583
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: we should ban this app. However, that doesn't really address

584
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: the core of the issue, which is the fact that

585
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: major social media companies are allowed to collect troves of

586
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: deeply personal data about you that you don't know about

587
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: without really any significant regulation whatsoever. So I think this

588
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: is important. I want to spend some time on this. Christal.

589
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: I know you and I have talked about this a lot,

590
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 1: but people, obviously there's a lot of renewed interests in this.

591
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:42,479
Speaker 1: So part of the reason why I want to take

592
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: this seriously our own James Lee actually did a fantastic

593
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: segment over the weekend about this as well. The reason

594
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: why I think conflating data privacy with this issue is that, yes,

595
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: it is certainly true that Facebook, Google, Microsoft, and Apple

596
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: are cynically using the TikTok national security issue to push

597
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 1: their own business. That said, that does not mean that

598
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: we should disregard the core issue at hand. At the

599
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: end of the day, Facebook, Google, Apple, all of these

600
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: companies are subject to US law, to the US judicial system.

601
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: If we have a problem with that, we can change it.

602
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: We can actually change the way that they conduct business.

603
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: I and you have both advocated for changing those laws.

604
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: One of the reasons actually why TikTok is so exceptional

605
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 1: is that they are not subject to US control and

606
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: are stead directly subject to the Chinese authoritarian system in

607
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: which they directly have to do whatever the Chinese government

608
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: tells them to do. We also know at this point

609
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 1: that TikTok, owned by Bike Dance CEO Xiang Ziming, has

610
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: directly made company decisions at the behest of the CCP

611
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: and so called government controlled actions. Now, the national security

612
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: case on this is that you're going to have an

613
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 1: app with one hundred and fifty million Americans being used

614
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: that is not subject to any democratic, small d democratic control.

615
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: And yes, let me just stop there and let me

616
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: I want to hear what you have to say. Yeah,

617
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: I mean to be honest with you. I actually found

618
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: some of the questions that James Lee raise, which I

619
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: do want everybody to go and watch because he did

620
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: a fantastic job on that video, I found them persuasive.

621
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: And I also found Glenn Greenwall did a show on

622
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: this last week that I thought also raised some really

623
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: important questions. A couple of things that they brought up is,

624
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 1: as you were indicating Sager and as AOC also mentioned, Okay,

625
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: if your concern is data privacy, then why are you

626
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 1: focused on justice one app when Meta in particular collects

627
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: way more data than TikTok does. So the data privacy

628
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: concerns are hard to take seriously when you haven't seen

629
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: a serious effort by Congress to deal with this in

630
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: any real way in terms of, you know, all of

631
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,959
Speaker 1: social media. So that's number one. One of the points

632
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: that Glenn raised that I thought was also worth considering

633
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: is the fact that you know, we know from the

634
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: Twitter files the way that government control and government interface

635
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 1: with Twitter in particular, but all American social media companies

636
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: has not been a good thing. So it's not an

637
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 1: accident that the one app that they don't actually have

638
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: sort of direct control over and hold onto is the

639
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 1: one that they are going after to ban. So I

640
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: think that's noteworthy, and I also think that, you know,

641
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: it's also worth considering that this is just a truly

642
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,719
Speaker 1: extraordinary act. You are talking about one hundred and fifty

643
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: million users on this platform, is the most popular platform

644
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: among teenagers in the country. So the extraordinary nature of

645
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: this act, I think should also not be understated. And

646
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: you also have a lot of people who are very

647
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: self interested, not just the executives at Google and Facebook

648
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: and other places, but also many of these members of

649
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: Congress have stuck in these companies that they stand to

650
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: personally benefit from banning TikTok. So I did actually think

651
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: that a number of those concerns were, you know, significant

652
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: and worth consideration. I think that those are all incredibly

653
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: valid points, And unlike a Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg, I

654
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: would not say that that's not true. I think they're

655
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 1: all actually completely true. That doesn't yet absolve and part

656
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: of what I would say is, Okay, we run our country.

657
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: We have small d democratic input. We can vote for candidates,

658
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 1: and yes, this is incredibly hard. I'm not saying that

659
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 1: government is incorrupt in our political system, isn't there That said,

660
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: we can have some small de democratic control over the FBI.

661
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 1: We quite literally have a Congress which is holding hearings

662
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 1: about this. There are no such hearings in China. Secondly,

663
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 1: and whenever it comes to this issue around data privacy

664
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 1: and the self interested in nature, again, I want to

665
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: say that that is one hundred percent true. But I

666
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: also want to inject a secondary issue to this, which

667
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 1: I don't think that AOC James or Glenn has address,

668
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 1: which is about reciprocity. Look, at the end of the day, Facebook, Google, Apple, well, okay,

669
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 1: not Apple, but Facebook, Google, and US social media companies

670
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: are banned in China specifically because China does not want

671
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 1: any US backed company to have any market share in

672
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: their country whatsoever without total authoritarian control, because they believe

673
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,720
Speaker 1: that it would be used as a US cultural psyop

674
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 1: to turn their population right. So in that can we

675
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: then allow their major platform in our This is a

676
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: basic this is fairness, But I think cannot allow this

677
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: company to operate in the United States when they ban

678
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: OUR companies from operation. So I think that argument cuts

679
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: both ways. Because when China or Iran or other authoritarian

680
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 1: regimes block American social media companies, we interpret that as

681
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 1: their authoritarian despots. So when we do the same with

682
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 1: their social media platforms, shouldn't we examine whether our behavior

683
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: is similarly authoritarian and despotic. So I don't think that

684
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: that argument. I don't buy that argument because I'm not

685
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 1: looking to replicate the authoritarian tendencies of you know, a

686
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 1: country like China. The other thing, in terms of the

687
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: data privacy issues that I think is worth raising as

688
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 1: well is if we're concerned, and I think we rightly should.

689
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone should take the CEO as a

690
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 1: word that like, oh, it's all stored in Houston and

691
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 1: don't worry about it, like they don't have any acts.

692
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone should really buy into that. Okay,

693
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 1: So I want to be clear about that. But the

694
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 1: data that we're talking about that's being collected, A lot

695
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 1: of this data, if not all of this data, is

696
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 1: widely available for sale. So if China wants that data,

697
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: like they've already got access to it in a lot

698
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,839
Speaker 1: of ways, that ship has already sort of sailed. So

699
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,959
Speaker 1: I don't want to get caught up in a sort

700
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,399
Speaker 1: of anti China hysteria. I think it is worth you know,

701
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 1: I have been in support of some of the efforts

702
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: that we have taken in order to make ourselves more

703
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: economically independent and less dependent on China. I think some

704
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,919
Speaker 1: of the things we've done, especially with chips manufacturing, makes

705
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 1: a lot of sense. This one just to be Frank,

706
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: I still have some major, major question marks about whether

707
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: or not this represents a dramatic overreach. And you know,

708
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 1: maybe it's because my spider senses go up. When you

709
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: have such overwhelming sentiment from both parties and so very

710
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: few voices of dissent, and you got the Biden administration,

711
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: you know, aligning with you know, almost every Republican in

712
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: support of banning this thing. I start to I start

713
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 1: to wonder what the underlying agenda is, and I do

714
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 1: think part of it has to do with national security,

715
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: state wanting control over social media platforms, and also personal

716
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 1: sort of financial investment in some of the companies that

717
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 1: really stand to benefit from banning TikTok. As we've discussed before,

718
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 1: all of these social media companies are basically desperate to

719
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: replicate TikTok success. We see very clearly with YouTube, which

720
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: of course is owned by Google, where they're trying to

721
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: do YouTube shorts and they're trying to compete, and they're

722
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: leaning ward to their algorithm versus what people choose to

723
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 1: select as their preferences on YouTube. This is all complete

724
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: replication of what TikTok has done and the kind of

725
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: magic that has made TikTok so appealing to teenagers. So

726
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: I guess that's what I'll say is I have the

727
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,280
Speaker 1: amount of questions I have about this direction have dramatically increased.

728
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 1: I think those are all fair, and I actually I

729
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: find myself uncomfortable being on the side of the establishment,

730
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 1: I guess for once. And but here's the thing I

731
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: will remind people, this was not a popular position three

732
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 1: and a half years ago. It might have been one

733
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 1: of the maybe like me and like three Matt Stoller

734
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 1: and like two others once we were talking about it. Actually,

735
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: the entire Republican establishment was against banning TikTok for this

736
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 1: reason because Wall Street had significant had a significant investors

737
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 1: inside of the Bike Dance Corporation. The Biden administration also

738
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: dragged its feet. If you can go back, you can

739
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 1: actually go pull the receipts if people want. I've been

740
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 1: doing monologues about this for over three years. I remember

741
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: doing monologues when they had like thirty million users, and

742
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 1: I was like, guys, this is reaching escape velocity. You've

743
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: got to nip this problem in the bud before it

744
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: becomes a problem. And I also want to say this too,

745
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,399
Speaker 1: about what you were saying at the end of the day,

746
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 1: I respect national sovereignty. If Iran and China want to

747
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 1: ban Facebook and Google, I don't actually think that's authoritarian,

748
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: even though they are doing it for authoritarian purposes. As

749
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 1: we also noticed whenever Twitter, for example, removed Donald Trump,

750
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,479
Speaker 1: many other democratic countries like Germany and France were like, hey,

751
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: you can't be taken heads of state off platforms, and

752
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: if you do, you're going to be subject to our regulation.

753
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: All countries have the ability to conduct national sovereignty, which

754
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 1: is why I think that our national sovereignty should be respected.

755
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 1: The talking point around why should we act like China

756
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: has actually one that a lot of libertarian at libertarian

757
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 1: activists and lobbyists for TikTok have been using here for

758
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 1: quite some time. So look, yes, it is true that

759
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 1: data privacy in the United States is a disaster. It

760
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 1: is certainly true also that these companies are not acting

761
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: in good faith in that there's a lot of shenanigans

762
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 1: in corruption and all that going on. It is also true,

763
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 1: certainly that the FBI and all of those want something

764
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: under their control. But at the same time, we don't

765
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: have no we don't have no role to play here.

766
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 1: We live in a democratic country, we actually can have

767
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: input on this. I would view this actually as a

768
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 1: victory for information and for democracy because the press, the press,

769
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 1: the people, and many of the politicians actually the ones

770
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,720
Speaker 1: who caught up the least. It's really open source press

771
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: reporting and pressure from the outside which brought this issue

772
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: really to bear. And look, let's also take a step

773
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 1: and look as you alluded to to the actual TikTok

774
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 1: CEO's testimony here where he did himself no favors with

775
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: some of his disastrous answers. Let's take a listen to one.

776
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 1: Bite Dens is not owned or controlled by the Chinese government,

777
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,720
Speaker 1: is a private company. Mister Chu, has Bite Dance spied

778
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 1: on Americans at the direction of the Chinese Communist Party. No,

779
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: has Fit Dance spied on American citizens. I don't think

780
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: they're spying, is the right way to describe it. This

781
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: is committed to be very transparent without users about what

782
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 1: we collect. I don't think what we collect. I don't

783
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,280
Speaker 1: believe what we collect is more than most. The problem

784
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 1: here is you're trying to give the impression that you're

785
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: going to move away from Beijing and the Communist Party

786
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 1: you're trying to give the impression that you're a good actor,

787
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: but the commitments that we would seek to achieve those

788
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 1: goals are not being made today. I have seen no

789
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: evidence that the Chinese government has access to that data.

790
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,359
Speaker 1: They have never asked us. We have not provided well

791
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: in a way I've asked that. I find that actually preposterous.

792
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 1: TikTok access to the home Wi Fi network has Fit

793
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,240
Speaker 1: Dance spied on American citizens. I don't think they're spying,

794
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,399
Speaker 1: is the right way to describe it. The only phase

795
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: data that you get that we collect is when you

796
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 1: use the filters. You have sunglasses on your face. We

797
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 1: need to know where your eyes are. How do you

798
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: need to know what the ads are if you're not

799
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 1: seeing if they're dilated American data stort on American soil

800
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 1: by an American company, overseen by American personnel. We call

801
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 1: this initiative Project Texas. Please rename your project. Texas is

802
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 1: not the appropriate name. We stand for freedom and transparency

803
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: and we don't want your project. You damn well know

804
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 1: that you cannot protect the data and security of this

805
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: committee or the one hundred and fifty million users of

806
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: your app because it is an extension of the CCP

807
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 1: from the data it collects to the contented controls. TikTok

808
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 1: is a grave threat of foreign influence in American life.

809
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: So what I like about that mashup is, first of all,

810
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 1: does TikTok connect to the home Wi Fi? These people,

811
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say about this, some

812
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 1: of these boomers in Congress. I know many of our

813
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 1: boomera audis will get mad. I'm sorry, people, a lot

814
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 1: of you gotta go. We can't be having this in

815
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: some of the top representatives of Congress where you have

816
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: an immense about responsibility. It's just like the Facebook hearing

817
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: where they're like, mister Zuckerberg, how do you make money?

818
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 1: I will never get over that one that said I

819
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 1: don't think spying is the right word. Obviously ridiculous. I

820
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 1: also think I should explain to people because it's not

821
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 1: ultimately clear. TikTok is a subsidiary company of Byte Dance,

822
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,760
Speaker 1: the Chinese holding company. Mister Chu is a Singaporean citizen

823
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 1: who was hired specifically because he's not Chinese. Before that,

824
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 1: they add an American who actually quit his job because

825
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 1: of the national security concerns. He used to work over

826
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: at Disney. Mister Chu was used and is a puppet of,

827
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 1: basically of Xiang Xiuming, the CEO and the major success

828
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 1: holder of Byte Dance. By Dance itself is subject once

829
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:45,359
Speaker 1: again completely and totally to CCP authoritarian control. Xiang has

830
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 1: already had to take many apps off of the Chinese

831
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: App Store and apologize to the CCP for quote not

832
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: upholding socialist core values, and of course those aren't actual

833
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 1: socialist values, those are the CCP values. He also has

834
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: held actual CCP ping thought trainings inside of bytenance. All

835
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: I'm trying to say is that clearly it is directly

836
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: controlled by the Chinese government. Ask Jack Ma how it

837
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 1: worked out for him when he got a little bit

838
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 1: too big for his breches and he's basically thrown into prison.

839
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 1: So I think it's important for people to look at

840
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: this hearing as much of his disaster as it was

841
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 1: really on all sides, especially with some of these some

842
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 1: of these representatives not literally knowing how the Wi fi works.

843
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: And that is where I do want to validate something

844
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: that AOC did say. You do have to make the

845
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 1: case for people. It has to be cogent, and you

846
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 1: can't be having clips of Congressman saying, does TikTok connect

847
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 1: to the home Wi Fi and steal your data? I

848
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: think a genuine case. I've tried to make it here

849
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: many times, you know, laying out all the case here.

850
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: I think Biden does owe that. Ultimately, I think he

851
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 1: failed by allowing this amount of market penetration in the

852
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 1: first place. But if you're going to allow that, a

853
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 1: very cogent important case needs to be made, because the

854
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 1: one thing she is correct about is that a lot

855
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: of people use the app. Half the country literally is

856
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 1: using this app. So at that point, now you do

857
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 1: owe it because there is an act. I mean, that's

858
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: almost many people who voted, just so we are aware. Well, yeah,

859
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,479
Speaker 1: I think those are great points. I mean I would

860
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 1: say that really this app reached escape velocity during the

861
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: Trump administration when these discussions first started and Trump started

862
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: trying to you know, force a sale or whatever, and

863
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: it ended up coming to nothing. But there's a reason

864
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:26,959
Speaker 1: why Biden has pushed this, kicked this to Congress rather

865
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 1: than claiming the authority to take action himself, and it's

866
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 1: because he knows that this is likely to be devastatingly

867
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: unpopular with young voters, and look, a lot of young

868
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 1: people don't show up to vote, but some of them do,

869
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:43,240
Speaker 1: and a lot of them vote for the Democratic Party.

870
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,399
Speaker 1: So he also wants to shift blame for this if

871
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: they do end up banning TikTok in a bipartisan direction,

872
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 1: so that he doesn't completely shoulder the blame, because I

873
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,720
Speaker 1: do think, you know, for a lot of young people,

874
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,399
Speaker 1: and I have some insight into this with how much

875
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: my daughter, how much time my daughter spends on this

876
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 1: app this is a really like kind of a central

877
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 1: part of their life. This is really important to them.

878
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,919
Speaker 1: It's where they express themselves creatively, it's their entertainment, it's

879
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: all of that. And so if you and one fell

880
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 1: swoop ban it, especially without really laying out a case

881
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:21,320
Speaker 1: that they believe in, buy into, accept and are willing

882
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:24,399
Speaker 1: to go along with, then you're going to face some

883
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 1: huge political blowback. And as much as he's trying to

884
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: shift the onus in a bipartisan direction, he's president of

885
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: the United States, so I think and from a political perspective,

886
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: he's still going to really get the blame here if

887
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 1: they do decide to go forward with banning TikTok completely.

888
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:44,319
Speaker 1: I've been very annoyed with the way that they've handled it.

889
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 1: They've been dragging their feet. It's been several years now.

890
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 1: He's been doing these fake reviews and try to negotiate.

891
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 1: You know. Another thing I want to say is, I

892
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: know that we covered in our previous show. I think

893
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,759
Speaker 1: about a week ago about how the Biden administration told

894
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 1: them either for sale or ban. And what did I say?

895
00:46:57,960 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 1: I said, a for sale is never going to happen.

896
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 1: And behold, the Chinese regulators came out and they're like, yeah,

897
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:04,399
Speaker 1: We're like, we're not going to approve that deal. There's

898
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,319
Speaker 1: no way we're to talk to me sold because that's

899
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,320
Speaker 1: valuable IP for bike Dance. That's one of the crown

900
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 1: jewels of the Chinese technology empire. Why would they let

901
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 1: it go. That'd be like imagine if China said, hey, Facebook,

902
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: you've got to sell Oculus. America would be like, no,

903
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: that's not going to happen. You know, we're not going

904
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 1: to have No Justice Department, regulators or whatever would approve

905
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:27,879
Speaker 1: that deal again for the same reason. So I think

906
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 1: a ban is ultimately an inevitability. Personally, I think it's

907
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 1: a good thing. I do think though, and I think, Look,

908
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:34,839
Speaker 1: we have a lot of young people who watch the show.

909
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 1: Let's continue to raise this issues and to talk about it.

910
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 1: I know, frankly a lot of them are skeptical. Maybe

911
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 1: you should be, Maybe you should be. Hopefully we can

912
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 1: either convince you or we can show you that a

913
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: real debate can and should be had here, and that's

914
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: certainly not happening elsewhere. I think that's important. Yeah. Well,

915
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 1: the last thing I'll say is, you know, I am

916
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 1: in the skeptical camp for sure, just because I do

917
00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 1: think it is an extraordinary act, and I continue to

918
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 1: be unpersuaded that the data privacy concerns here are significantly

919
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 1: different than those with regards to other social media companies.

920
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: But to broaden out, we really have to have some

921
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 1: sort of a wider ranging reform of social media companies

922
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 1: so that you are dealing with the Metas of the world,

923
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 1: you are dealing with the twitters of the world, you

924
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 1: are dealing with YouTube and all the rest. Because this

925
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: sort of piecemeal approach is not going to be any

926
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 1: sort of panacea even if we do resolve whatever issues

927
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:35,839
Speaker 1: people have with TikTok. All right, let's go ahead and

928
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: talk about Siria some extraordinary things happening. Over the last

929
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,839
Speaker 1: couple of days, an American contractor, as we'll have other

930
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: several US service members were wounded in an apparent drone

931
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 1: attack on a US base in Eastern Seria. Let's go

932
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 1: ahead and put this up there on the screen. So

933
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 1: some of the details are a little bit scant, but

934
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 1: the initial indications that are coming out of this incident

935
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 1: are really trouble and the Pentagon has to answer a

936
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 1: lot of questions. So as I said, the Pentagon is

937
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,320
Speaker 1: blaming Iranian back to militias and said that it was

938
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 1: a quote iranianne or a drone of Iranian origin, whatever

939
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: that means. Obviously, Eastern Syria is a hotly contested territory.

940
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 1: You've got Iranian backed militias, you've got Islamic militias, you've

941
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 1: got US backed militias. It's basically a free fire zone.

942
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 1: It has been now since the beginning of the civil War.

943
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 1: Occasionally Israeli strikes will happen in the region against Hesbola.

944
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 1: It's absolute madness going on there. And of course the

945
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 1: question arises, like why is American, Why are American troops

946
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 1: even there? Who are these contractors? What are we doing.

947
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:43,280
Speaker 1: Much of it is currently being conducted under the US

948
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 1: Anti ISIS mission. So yes, there have been some limited

949
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 1: number of air strikes and operations against ISIS in the

950
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 1: last couple of months, but it's one that very much

951
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: flies under the radar until as we all saw during

952
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 1: the Niger attack, the US service members just end up

953
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 1: dead in a part of the world that we barely

954
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 1: even knew that we were still operating in. What is

955
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:08,320
Speaker 1: especially insane about this attack, Crystal, is that the Basis

956
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:12,320
Speaker 1: anti air defense the air defense system was not working

957
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 1: properly and apparently failed, which is what the Pentagon is saying.

958
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 1: And not only that, not only did it fail, it

959
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,240
Speaker 1: appears that the Iranian militias knew that it was failing

960
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 1: and specifically choose that time to conduct an attack. So

961
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,880
Speaker 1: not only do we have our guys stationed in eastern

962
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 1: Syria for a reason that nobody has ever voted for

963
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 1: or made a case to the American public. By the way,

964
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 1: we're not at war with Syria, and then also we're

965
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 1: not even protecting them properly, and now a US contractor

966
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 1: is dead and several service members are wounded. On top

967
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,839
Speaker 1: of that, more attacks were then conducted over the course

968
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 1: of the next several days. Let's put this up there

969
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:55,800
Speaker 1: on the screen where you can actually see a number

970
00:50:55,840 --> 00:51:00,360
Speaker 1: of drone attacks and swarms happened all across of Syria

971
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 1: in eastern Syria, specifically against other US bases, which actually

972
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 1: raises the question how many American service members are inside

973
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:13,479
Speaker 1: of Syria. This was a major topic of discussion during

974
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 1: the Trump administration when Trump ordered to pull out from Syria.

975
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 1: That's ultimately why Secretary Mattis quit the administration in the

976
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 1: first place. And the case that he often was making

977
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 1: there as many skeptics, people like myself were also saying,

978
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:27,439
Speaker 1: was Licksen, if you don't get out, then we're never

979
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 1: gonna leave. And it's been five years since that happened,

980
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:32,799
Speaker 1: and now we just had a service member or a

981
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: contractor was killed. There several services members who were wounded,

982
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 1: and on top of that, now we are being drawn

983
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 1: further into this conflict. Let's throw this up there, the

984
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 1: Biden administration conducting retaliatory air strikes in Syria in response

985
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 1: to this attack, escalating tension with the Iranian regime as

986
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:55,280
Speaker 1: well over this. As if we don't have more problems

987
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 1: going on elsewhere, in the world. This is just you know,

988
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 1: like a vintage story I think outside of the Forever War. Yeah,

989
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 1: I think that is exactly correct. Where it reminds you

990
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 1: number one, of all of these conflicts that we have

991
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,359
Speaker 1: service members engaged in that the American public has had

992
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: no ability to debate that there was never any congressional

993
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:19,760
Speaker 1: authorization for number two that you know, this is all

994
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 1: fine and good until you have some major conflict as

995
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:27,720
Speaker 1: we have basically right now with you know, an advers

996
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: and a significant adversary and a significant power player in

997
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 1: terms of the region. You know, this leads us into

998
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,759
Speaker 1: sort of direct conflict with Iran, which can have all

999
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 1: sorts of spiraling diplomatic consequences that can end in disaster.

1000
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:44,799
Speaker 1: You know. The reporting suggests that there's more than nine

1001
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 1: hundred actual service members in Syria remaining and hundreds more contractors.

1002
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:54,439
Speaker 1: We don't even know what number that is. So there

1003
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:59,279
Speaker 1: continues to be potential for disaster here. As evidence by this,

1004
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 1: this is also not the first time that President Biden

1005
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:05,799
Speaker 1: has carried on strikes within Syria. There were strikes in

1006
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,280
Speaker 1: February and June of twenty twenty one. There were strikes

1007
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 1: in August of twenty twenty two and now this latest round.

1008
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:15,360
Speaker 1: So I think it has all the elements of total

1009
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:19,399
Speaker 1: lack of transparency, total lack of accountability, and a very

1010
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:22,839
Speaker 1: potentially dangerous and fraud situation that the American people have

1011
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 1: really had no insight into or say over. Yes, And

1012
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 1: I also think it's important for people to understand American

1013
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:34,880
Speaker 1: the US Congress never authorized any troops inside of Syria.

1014
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 1: All of this is being done under the auspices of

1015
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 1: Operation Inherent Resolve, which is the US backed mission to

1016
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 1: support Iraqi security forces against ISIS inside of Iraq. Obama

1017
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 1: and President Trump expanded an Inherent Resolve to secret mission

1018
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 1: of at one point thousands of American service members inside

1019
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 1: of Syria. Syria, Look, we do not recognize any government

1020
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 1: outside of Syria. The Aside regime clearly is remains in

1021
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:08,439
Speaker 1: power throughout the country. This is the sovereign nation which

1022
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,800
Speaker 1: US forces are stationed on without the explicit permission and

1023
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 1: in fact the protests of the government who is in

1024
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:17,840
Speaker 1: control in that region. We are basically doing so in

1025
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 1: occupation of at least you know, the limited bases in

1026
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:24,919
Speaker 1: other territory that we have with no legitimacy from Congress

1027
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 1: or from the nation whose territory that we are operating on.

1028
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 1: This is again part of the problem with the congressional

1029
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 1: abdication of responsibility and the authorization of the use of

1030
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 1: military force that we saw in Afghanistan and in Iraq,

1031
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 1: where all of these missions, like in Niger and in

1032
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 1: Somalia and you know, God who knows where Mali many

1033
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 1: of these other places are all done without any actual

1034
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,279
Speaker 1: government approval. In many cases, members of Congress, even those

1035
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 1: on the Armed Services Committee and others, have no idea

1036
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:00,720
Speaker 1: what these troops are doing there. And look, let's be honest,

1037
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,719
Speaker 1: does the Biden administration even know what's going on? Like

1038
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:06,240
Speaker 1: would do they know what they're doing there? It really

1039
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:09,759
Speaker 1: is just run outside of the Pentagon on complete autopilot,

1040
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:11,839
Speaker 1: and then the world just wakes up, as we did

1041
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 1: in Niger when somebody dies. So look, unfortunately, just like

1042
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 1: in that situation, most likely what will happen is the

1043
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 1: Pentagon will cover it up, They'll try and act tough,

1044
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 1: the Biden administration will give any answers, and the troop

1045
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 1: presidence will just continue. You know, you covered that Niger

1046
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:29,760
Speaker 1: attack there at the time. This seems very similar where

1047
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:32,840
Speaker 1: what the hell is going on here. We have people

1048
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 1: in far flung places. Air defense doesn't even work properly.

1049
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 1: A man is dead, like you can't just you can't

1050
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 1: whitewash something like this, and yet they do it all

1051
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 1: the time. Yeah, I think that's all well said. Okay,

1052
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 1: let's also talk about Vladimir Putin. This is important international news.

1053
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 1: So President Putin, let's go and put this up there

1054
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:56,440
Speaker 1: on the screen, speaking in a long interview, saying that

1055
00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 1: they will station tactical nuclear weapons inside Belarus. So this

1056
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 1: isn't an immediate action that President Putin says that the

1057
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 1: Russians will undertake. But what they're doing is they're going

1058
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:11,720
Speaker 1: to be building a new tactical nuclear missile base inside

1059
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: of Belarus. The reason why this is important is obviously

1060
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,359
Speaker 1: Belarus is not inside of Russia and is its own

1061
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: independent country, of course, allied very strongly with the Putin regime.

1062
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 1: The tactical nuclear weapon issue also is not one that

1063
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 1: has been raised in quite some time. Crystal Putin actually

1064
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 1: kind of dropped the tactical nuclear weapon threats a couple

1065
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 1: of months ago, trying to tone down the temperature, saying, no,

1066
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,319
Speaker 1: we would never do that. That's not something that's under

1067
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:41,240
Speaker 1: consideration after significant amounts of leaks and intimations by President

1068
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:44,920
Speaker 1: former President Mediaevet that tactical nuclear weapons were under consider

1069
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 1: eration inside of Ukraine. So clearly, this is once again

1070
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 1: trying to up the ante, trying and trying to raise

1071
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 1: the stakes ahead of a so called and possible spring

1072
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:57,279
Speaker 1: offensive by both the Russians and by the Ukrainians, and

1073
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 1: of course ongoing Ukrainian fighting happening right now inside of Bagmut.

1074
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,920
Speaker 1: But overall, with the strategic picture, it's something that is

1075
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:07,239
Speaker 1: a bit of a nightmare for the Ukrainians and they

1076
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:09,759
Speaker 1: are recognizing as such. Let's put this next one up

1077
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:12,799
Speaker 1: there on the screen please, as you can see, what

1078
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:16,920
Speaker 1: they are calling for is an emergency UN Security Council

1079
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 1: session over the nuclear weapons deployment. First of all, it

1080
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 1: would be a violation of the Nuclear non Proliferation Treaty.

1081
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 1: It also would be one that has done explicitly kind

1082
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 1: of marching tactical nuclear weapons westward outside of the Russian border.

1083
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 1: Of course, the US and NATO has its own nuclear

1084
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 1: weapons bases which they have long complained about the Russians

1085
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:41,240
Speaker 1: and the Chinese, and this is something that they are

1086
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 1: basically trying to mimic that strategy of like, Okay, well

1087
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:46,680
Speaker 1: if you can do it, so can we. Encirclement is

1088
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 1: something that the Ukrainians probably fear the most, and there's

1089
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 1: been some speculation of these growing ties between Belarus and

1090
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:57,720
Speaker 1: Russia militarily that Belarus would even authorize operations from the

1091
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:00,400
Speaker 1: north in a future type of Spring offensive to draw

1092
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 1: pressure away from the Spring offense if that's happening in

1093
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:07,240
Speaker 1: eastern Ukraine. So overall, obviously it's a troubling strategic situation

1094
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:09,840
Speaker 1: to be facing right now, no doubt about it. And

1095
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:13,200
Speaker 1: to underscore some of what you were saying there, This

1096
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 1: was Putin's justification entirely was like, well the US does it,

1097
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 1: so why can't we? Said, we're doing what they have

1098
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 1: been doing for decades, stationing these tactical nukes in certain

1099
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 1: Allied countries, preparing the launch platforms and training their crews.

1100
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 1: We are going to do the same thing. And I

1101
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:35,080
Speaker 1: think it also exposes one of the sort of media

1102
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:38,720
Speaker 1: tropes that has been put out there to convince Americans

1103
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 1: that there is no threat of further escalation potential nuclear conflict,

1104
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 1: which was this idea that Russia hasn't you know, they've

1105
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:49,440
Speaker 1: drawn all these red lines and we've gone ahead and

1106
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 1: sent them tanks and done all these other things. They

1107
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 1: haven't actually escalated. Well, I think this is definitely an escalation,

1108
00:58:55,520 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 1: and they point directly to the fact that Britain decided

1109
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:06,160
Speaker 1: recently to provide Ukraine with armor piercing rounds that contain

1110
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:12,080
Speaker 1: depleted uranium. This move. Depleted uranium is a byproduct of

1111
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 1: the uranium enrichment process. It's needed to create nuclear weapons. Now,

1112
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:18,080
Speaker 1: we're not at risk of any sort of like nuclear

1113
00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 1: explosion from these from this ammunition, but the rounds can

1114
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 1: emit low levels of radiation and the UNS Nuclear Watchdog

1115
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 1: has warned of the possible dangers of exposure. So that

1116
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:33,520
Speaker 1: is what they're pointing to as the reason for making

1117
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 1: this move right now. And also, as you indicated, saying, hey,

1118
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 1: you guys are doing it, so why can't we as well?

1119
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:42,720
Speaker 1: Of course, this reminds all of us what a dangerous

1120
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 1: game is being played right now, with potential ramifications that

1121
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 1: go far beyond Ukraine, and why it is so critical

1122
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 1: to get this war resolved by diplomatic means as soon

1123
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 1: as it is possibly feasible to do so. I also

1124
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,400
Speaker 1: I don't think it is an accident that this happened

1125
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:06,360
Speaker 1: right after the meeting between President Putin and Shishingping. Let's

1126
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:07,920
Speaker 1: go and put this up there on the screen from

1127
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 1: the Financial Times about the tightening embrace between China and

1128
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:15,320
Speaker 1: Russia looking to try and build this bulwark against the West.

1129
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:18,040
Speaker 1: China also obviously complains about this with respect to US

1130
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:21,600
Speaker 1: bases in Japan and in South Korea, also pointing to

1131
01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 1: them as attempts to encircle them. So the point b

1132
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 1: that the alliance or seeming alliance growing between the two could,

1133
01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 1: and this is only could in bolden either to take

1134
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:37,480
Speaker 1: more aggressive action. Now, at the end of the day,

1135
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 1: a deployment is a deployment. It is not one with

1136
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 1: means that they're actually being used. That said, it is

1137
01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:45,440
Speaker 1: not usually a good thing whenever you start moving the

1138
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:49,360
Speaker 1: tactical nuclear weapons around and specifically closer to a hot war,

1139
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 1: the largest war inside of Europe ever since World War Two.

1140
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 1: I think that you put all of that together and

1141
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:58,200
Speaker 1: you do see it's a serious problem here with respect

1142
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 1: to the strategic grand situation, because if China starts having

1143
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 1: lethal weapons flow towards Russia, specifically, if this call between

1144
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 1: Zelensky and she doesn't happen. And if Zelensky ends up

1145
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:13,360
Speaker 1: rejecting the Chinese peace plan outright, it will give them

1146
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:16,400
Speaker 1: the easiest diplomatic cover that they've ever had to start

1147
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 1: helping the Russians even more so in a military capacity.

1148
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:23,200
Speaker 1: This too could set the stage for either a Grand

1149
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:27,600
Speaker 1: Spring offensive which goes well or goes badly, and both, unfortunately,

1150
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:31,000
Speaker 1: are disasters. A Russian Spring offensive that goes well, obviously,

1151
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:33,680
Speaker 1: that's a bloodbath through the Ukrainians, and that's one in

1152
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 1: which guarantees the war even more and hundreds of thousands

1153
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 1: even more so will be killed on both sides, of course.

1154
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:42,600
Speaker 1: But then if it goes badly, that could also make

1155
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 1: them feel as if they are having their backs against

1156
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:48,120
Speaker 1: the corner and they must then reach for the tactical

1157
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:51,960
Speaker 1: nuclear weapon to save their territory, specifically in some sort

1158
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:54,720
Speaker 1: of runaway Ukrainian scenario where you know they looks like

1159
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:57,800
Speaker 1: they may be able to take crimea. Now, neither of those,

1160
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:00,160
Speaker 1: by the way, is all that likely. Most likely is

1161
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:03,200
Speaker 1: a stalemate, but it just shows you that the risk

1162
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:05,680
Speaker 1: in both cases is ones that we have to watch,

1163
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:09,640
Speaker 1: and that risk in those cases in one which always

1164
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 1: results in a lot of death. Yeah, and thus could

1165
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:15,400
Speaker 1: even broil the Brigger conflict. That's exactly right and thus

1166
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:19,840
Speaker 1: far in terms of how the Biden administration has treated

1167
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:24,240
Speaker 1: this conflict. Basically, whatever happens on the battlefield is a

1168
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 1: justification for US shipping even more aid and escalating even

1169
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:31,120
Speaker 1: further than we already have. If Ukraine is on the

1170
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:33,320
Speaker 1: backfoot and they're not doing well, it's, oh, we've got

1171
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,200
Speaker 1: to strength in Ukraine's hand to hopefully ultimately get them

1172
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:39,000
Speaker 1: in a better position for the negotiating table. If Russia

1173
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:40,960
Speaker 1: is on the back foot, then it's, oh, Ukraine can

1174
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 1: actually win. Let's go ahead and build them up as

1175
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:45,840
Speaker 1: much as we can so that we can actually end

1176
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:48,880
Speaker 1: this war with a Russian defeat. And if it's a stalemate,

1177
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:51,200
Speaker 1: then it's still we got to strengthen the Ukrainian position

1178
01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 1: here to get them to the negotiating table. Of course,

1179
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:58,200
Speaker 1: all of those roads lead to further escalation rather than

1180
01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:02,360
Speaker 1: actually getting anyone to the negotiating table, not that I'm

1181
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: claiming that would be an easy feat whatsoever. But you know,

1182
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:11,360
Speaker 1: General Millie, the Rand Corporation, lots of mainstream individuals acknowledging

1183
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:15,680
Speaker 1: this has to end in a diplomatic resolution, and that

1184
01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 1: the sooner we can get there, the better it will

1185
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:22,240
Speaker 1: be for everyone, but in particular for the Ukrainian people

1186
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:26,640
Speaker 1: themselves and avoid you know, further loss of unnecessary life

1187
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:31,960
Speaker 1: and economic devastation. So with all of that as backdrop,

1188
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:35,440
Speaker 1: let's get to this story from the New York Times.

1189
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:39,080
Speaker 1: This is quite extraordinary. Let's go and put it up

1190
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:41,840
Speaker 1: on the screen here. You got to read this whole

1191
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:43,520
Speaker 1: report because I'm only going to be able to touch

1192
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:45,280
Speaker 1: on some of the high level details here. But their

1193
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 1: headline is stolen valor. The US volunteers in Ukraine, who lie,

1194
01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:54,680
Speaker 1: waste and bicker, people who would not be allowed anywhere

1195
01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 1: near the battlefield in a US led war, are active

1196
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 1: on the Ukrainian front with ready access to American weapons.

1197
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 1: So basically what happened here is Zelensky understandably was like, Hey,

1198
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 1: anyone around the world, please who is able to fight,

1199
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:14,080
Speaker 1: please come and help us. And so there were thousands

1200
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 1: of Americans who responded to this call. The New York

1201
01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:19,480
Speaker 1: Times puts it this way. They say they rush to

1202
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 1: Ukraine by the thousands, many of them Americans, who promised

1203
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 1: to bring military experience, money or supplies to the battleground

1204
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:28,520
Speaker 1: of a righteous war. Hometown newspapers hailed their commitment. Donors

1205
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:31,960
Speaker 1: backed them with millions of dollars. Now, after a year

1206
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:35,200
Speaker 1: of combat, many of these homespun groups of volunteers are

1207
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:38,080
Speaker 1: fighting with themselves and undermining the war efforts. Some have

1208
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 1: wasted money or stolen valor others have cloaked themselves in

1209
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:46,160
Speaker 1: charity while also trying to profit off the war records show.

1210
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:50,160
Speaker 1: One of the individuals that they highlight here is Malcolm Nance,

1211
01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:57,640
Speaker 1: who became an absolute resistant superstar over on MSNBC during Russiagate.

1212
01:04:58,000 --> 01:04:59,960
Speaker 1: And he was one of these people who, you know,

1213
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:02,240
Speaker 1: when the Ukraine War started, he said, all right, I'm

1214
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:04,640
Speaker 1: signing up. I'm going to go over there and I'm

1215
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:06,480
Speaker 1: going to fight this. You know, I'm going to fight

1216
01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:10,680
Speaker 1: in this war personally. So they say that when he

1217
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:13,919
Speaker 1: arrived he made a plan to try to bring order

1218
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:17,000
Speaker 1: and discipline to this legion of fighters that had been,

1219
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:20,720
Speaker 1: you know, beset by infighting and chaos, and you know,

1220
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:23,360
Speaker 1: had been lying about their military records and all these

1221
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 1: other issues. Instead, they say he became enmeshed in the chaos. Today,

1222
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:31,920
Speaker 1: he's involved in a messy, distracting power struggle, one that

1223
01:05:32,120 --> 01:05:34,440
Speaker 1: it will surprise no one to learn, plays down often

1224
01:05:34,480 --> 01:05:38,600
Speaker 1: on Twitter, where Malcolm Nance taunted one former ally as

1225
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 1: fat and an associate of a verified con artist. One

1226
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:44,560
Speaker 1: of the things that they point to here, Sager, which

1227
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:46,840
Speaker 1: will also be a familiar pattern for those who followed

1228
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:49,400
Speaker 1: his work on Russia Gate, is he will use his

1229
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:54,560
Speaker 1: counterintelligence background to throw out all sorts of allegations about

1230
01:05:54,600 --> 01:05:58,840
Speaker 1: people that you know are totally at least unproven. He

1231
01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:04,520
Speaker 1: branded one person as a potential Russian spy, offering no evidence.

1232
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:09,320
Speaker 1: This individual, of course, denied the allegations. He defended himself

1233
01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:10,960
Speaker 1: saying that as a member of the Legion with an

1234
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:14,600
Speaker 1: intelligence background, he developed concerns that he felt an obligation

1235
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:18,280
Speaker 1: to report this to Ukrainian counterintelligence. He has now left

1236
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:21,400
Speaker 1: Ukraine potentially was forced down, but we'll just say left Ukraine,

1237
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:25,960
Speaker 1: but continues fundraising with a new group of allies. And

1238
01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 1: a number of these new allies are proven liars who

1239
01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 1: have lied about their military experience, lied about their past

1240
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:36,920
Speaker 1: work experience, etc. So a lot of shady dealings going

1241
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:40,960
Speaker 1: on here that they're tracking the times. Oh yeah, this

1242
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:43,760
Speaker 1: is so disgusting. I mean when you read this with Malcolm,

1243
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:46,720
Speaker 1: I mean clearly got himself embroiled. Now he's raising money,

1244
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:49,320
Speaker 1: the denouncing other people. And you know what bothers me

1245
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:52,320
Speaker 1: the most is, Look, there are a lot of well

1246
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:55,200
Speaker 1: meeting people here in this country, around the world, who

1247
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:57,880
Speaker 1: care a lot about Ukraine, who gave their hard earned

1248
01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 1: money to these people with the belief that they were

1249
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:04,280
Speaker 1: supporting people who are going to Ukraine to selflessly give

1250
01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:07,640
Speaker 1: their lives and to support those military forces. And if

1251
01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:12,320
Speaker 1: that's the case, these people are the worst of society

1252
01:07:12,720 --> 01:07:15,760
Speaker 1: because and I guess allegedly I should say for the lawyers,

1253
01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:19,320
Speaker 1: they took their hard earned money, are embezzling it, in

1254
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:22,560
Speaker 1: some cases wasting it, and in the worst cases, Crystal,

1255
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:27,040
Speaker 1: they are drawing resources from the Ukrainian military, who has

1256
01:07:27,080 --> 01:07:29,840
Speaker 1: to deal with these morons who are like, who are you?

1257
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:33,160
Speaker 1: Why are you showing up here? In some cases they

1258
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:35,240
Speaker 1: had to kick them out for fighting with each other.

1259
01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:38,600
Speaker 1: Now many of them are squabbling online. All of them

1260
01:07:38,720 --> 01:07:42,040
Speaker 1: we well healed by donors. There's also a secondary part

1261
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:44,440
Speaker 1: of this where if you read this, our producer Griffin

1262
01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:46,320
Speaker 1: made a joke this morning that this should be made

1263
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:48,840
Speaker 1: into a movie. It really should be made into a movie,

1264
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:52,040
Speaker 1: The Grifters of Ukraine. But one of the ones that

1265
01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:55,040
Speaker 1: bothered me the most was a guy who showed up

1266
01:07:55,040 --> 01:07:58,520
Speaker 1: there who said, I've been shooting rifles all my life,

1267
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:02,439
Speaker 1: no formal training, never been in the military, shows up there,

1268
01:08:03,120 --> 01:08:08,680
Speaker 1: starts uh fighting other American militia members, basically saying that

1269
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:14,360
Speaker 1: they were delivered brand new American service weapons basically out

1270
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:16,800
Speaker 1: of a crate. When he was pressed, he was like, yeah,

1271
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:18,800
Speaker 1: I don't know where they came from. I think we

1272
01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:22,160
Speaker 1: all know where they came from. Okay, so we're talking

1273
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:28,479
Speaker 1: here about unvetted, untrained yahoos from the US not saying

1274
01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 1: they aren't brave like you certainly are. To be going

1275
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:34,559
Speaker 1: into an active war zone with US provided and paid

1276
01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:38,000
Speaker 1: weapons and ammunition in their hands and throwing them at

1277
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:41,880
Speaker 1: the Russians. Does that sound responsible to you? That's not responsible.

1278
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:45,680
Speaker 1: And many of them, that's many of them aligning with

1279
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:52,040
Speaker 1: these you know, far right, potentially Nazi Nazi ideology battalions.

1280
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:55,360
Speaker 1: The jude you're talking about, this guy James Vasquez had

1281
01:08:55,400 --> 01:08:58,560
Speaker 1: said he deployed to Kuwait, said he deployed and a

1282
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:03,120
Speaker 1: rock all a lie. He left the army Reserve, not

1283
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:05,200
Speaker 1: as a sergeant, as he claimed, but as a private

1284
01:09:05,200 --> 01:09:07,840
Speaker 1: first class, one of the army's lowest ranks. Still, they

1285
01:09:07,880 --> 01:09:11,120
Speaker 1: say he had easy access to weapons, including American rifles.

1286
01:09:11,320 --> 01:09:14,000
Speaker 1: Where did they come from? Quote, I'm not exactly sure,

1287
01:09:14,560 --> 01:09:17,360
Speaker 1: mister Vasquez said in a text message. The rifles, he added,

1288
01:09:17,400 --> 01:09:20,360
Speaker 1: were brand new out of the box, and we have plenty.

1289
01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:23,320
Speaker 1: He also tweeted that he should not have to worry

1290
01:09:23,360 --> 01:09:27,840
Speaker 1: about international rules of war while he's in Ukraine. He

1291
01:09:27,960 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 1: admitted to misrepresenting his military record for decades. He acknowledged

1292
01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:37,479
Speaker 1: being kicked out of the army, but wouldn't talk about why. Quote.

1293
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:39,960
Speaker 1: I had to tell a million lines to get ahead.

1294
01:09:40,280 --> 01:09:42,920
Speaker 1: I didn't realize it was going to come to this.

1295
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:44,680
Speaker 1: And if you read through, that's like the beginning of

1296
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:46,400
Speaker 1: the article. If you read through all the way to

1297
01:09:46,400 --> 01:09:48,760
Speaker 1: the end, you'll find Malcolm Nance defending him and saying

1298
01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:52,160
Speaker 1: he's not a fake, he's the real deal. But these

1299
01:09:52,160 --> 01:09:55,760
Speaker 1: are individuals who would never make it on, you know,

1300
01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:58,479
Speaker 1: into the US mid This guy was actively kicked out

1301
01:09:58,840 --> 01:10:01,040
Speaker 1: of the army, and yet in the context of the

1302
01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:05,000
Speaker 1: Ukrainian conflict, he's got access to apparently whatever weapons he wants.

1303
01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:08,479
Speaker 1: So it also speaks to a lot of questions that

1304
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:11,120
Speaker 1: we have raised about, Okay, we're shipping all of this

1305
01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:14,519
Speaker 1: lethal aid quote unquote over there, where's it going, who's

1306
01:10:14,520 --> 01:10:16,360
Speaker 1: getting their hands on it? Well, we know one person

1307
01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:18,920
Speaker 1: who got their hands on it, mister James Vasquez, who's

1308
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:22,280
Speaker 1: been lying about everything. And let's not forget this. The

1309
01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:25,240
Speaker 1: Biden administration has assured us we have no indications of

1310
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:27,719
Speaker 1: misuse of American funds that have been sent to Ukraine.

1311
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:30,479
Speaker 1: You're looking at direct evidence right there. You got some

1312
01:10:30,640 --> 01:10:34,320
Speaker 1: crazy guy who barely served in the military. He's over

1313
01:10:34,360 --> 01:10:37,599
Speaker 1: there with his hands on brand new weapons, saying Crystal,

1314
01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:39,680
Speaker 1: he doesn't need to abide by the international What did

1315
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:42,640
Speaker 1: you say, the international rule war? So wait, are you

1316
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:45,360
Speaker 1: saying you're going to commit war crimes with US provided weapons?

1317
01:10:45,439 --> 01:10:47,680
Speaker 1: Because that doesn't sound great. Is that something that you

1318
01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:51,280
Speaker 1: want your hands on. Nobody here is defending the Russians.

1319
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:53,960
Speaker 1: Nobody is saying that you know, they don't deserve to

1320
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:56,559
Speaker 1: be beaten or or any of that. But you got

1321
01:10:56,560 --> 01:10:59,680
Speaker 1: to be responsible with the aid and the weapons that

1322
01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:02,360
Speaker 1: you were providing to people. And over and over again

1323
01:11:02,400 --> 01:11:04,400
Speaker 1: they have assured us that any questions about a to

1324
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:08,200
Speaker 1: Ukraine are treasonous. They say that they're unfounded that the

1325
01:11:08,280 --> 01:11:11,519
Speaker 1: Ukrainian military here can be trusted. I mean, I'm sorry,

1326
01:11:11,560 --> 01:11:13,200
Speaker 1: you can't be trusted. These are the type of people

1327
01:11:13,240 --> 01:11:15,519
Speaker 1: that you're willing to put weapons in the hands of.

1328
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:18,280
Speaker 1: This is crazy, I mean, and as they find out,

1329
01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:21,160
Speaker 1: because they're kicking many of them out for having crazy

1330
01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:25,320
Speaker 1: behavior or for big grifters. Yeah, no, that's exactly right.

1331
01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:27,880
Speaker 1: It's a pretty shocking report. Kudos to the Time for

1332
01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:30,880
Speaker 1: doing a good job on this one. For once, I

1333
01:11:30,960 --> 01:11:33,559
Speaker 1: knew the guy Thomas gibbonson f He's a straight shooter.

1334
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:36,160
Speaker 1: He's actually was a US Marine himself. He did a

1335
01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:38,439
Speaker 1: lot of great work in Afghanistan. So I'll read anything

1336
01:11:38,479 --> 01:11:44,559
Speaker 1: that guy writes. He's a fantastic reporter. Okay, Christal, what

1337
01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:46,599
Speaker 1: are you taking a look at? Last week I discussed

1338
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:50,040
Speaker 1: how the environmental goals of the ESG investing criteria have

1339
01:11:50,080 --> 01:11:53,000
Speaker 1: amounted to nothing more than greenwashing. It's an attempt to

1340
01:11:53,040 --> 01:11:57,240
Speaker 1: put an environmentally friendly sheine on standard bottom line capitalism.

1341
01:11:57,600 --> 01:12:00,280
Speaker 1: But a shocking report that came out pretty recently puts

1342
01:12:00,280 --> 01:12:03,840
Speaker 1: a finer point on the extent of this scam. One

1343
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:06,479
Speaker 1: of the methods that corporations use to signal their green

1344
01:12:06,520 --> 01:12:10,639
Speaker 1: ambitions and meet zero pledges is carbon offsets. Now, the

1345
01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:13,559
Speaker 1: idea here is pretty simple. If a bit morally tortured

1346
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:16,880
Speaker 1: corporations can figure out how large their carbon footprint is

1347
01:12:16,960 --> 01:12:19,840
Speaker 1: and then by credits that represent an equal amount of

1348
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:23,160
Speaker 1: carbon taken out of the atmosphere. Now, this is usually

1349
01:12:23,200 --> 01:12:26,759
Speaker 1: done through tree planting or forest preservation. If an airline,

1350
01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:29,920
Speaker 1: for example, is viewing jet fuel producing CO two in

1351
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:33,040
Speaker 1: the atmosphere, they can clean their conscience, signal their virtue

1352
01:12:33,040 --> 01:12:36,760
Speaker 1: to customers, and make good on governmental emissions regulations, all

1353
01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 1: by paying a company that will certify they have planted

1354
01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:41,559
Speaker 1: enough trees or saved enough trees to make up for

1355
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:44,760
Speaker 1: that airline CO two emissions. Now, on its face, the

1356
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:47,880
Speaker 1: concept already sounds kind of sketchy and misleading at best.

1357
01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:52,320
Speaker 1: For example, Shell just delivered a shipment of seventy thousand

1358
01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:56,040
Speaker 1: tons of liquefied natural gas to Taiwan in a deal

1359
01:12:56,120 --> 01:12:59,839
Speaker 1: that they had the gall to celebrate as greenhouse gas neutral.

1360
01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:02,920
Speaker 1: How can they get away with this preposterous claim while

1361
01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:05,040
Speaker 1: they justify it based on the idea that they purchased

1362
01:13:05,160 --> 01:13:07,800
Speaker 1: enough carbon offsets to make up for the one hundred

1363
01:13:07,840 --> 01:13:11,120
Speaker 1: and ninety thousand tons of CO two emissions that this

1364
01:13:11,200 --> 01:13:15,080
Speaker 1: amount of LNG will create. Here's some Shell big oil

1365
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:18,760
Speaker 1: corporate propaganda that explains the concept nature can be used

1366
01:13:18,760 --> 01:13:21,920
Speaker 1: to compensate for emissions that cannot be avoided. Most cars

1367
01:13:21,960 --> 01:13:25,080
Speaker 1: still rely on traditional fossil fuels, for example gasoline or diesel,

1368
01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:28,040
Speaker 1: and it takes time to replace them. Adoption of electric

1369
01:13:28,080 --> 01:13:29,960
Speaker 1: cars is on the rise, but for many people they

1370
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:34,040
Speaker 1: are currently too expensive or impractic. Car Still, people and

1371
01:13:34,160 --> 01:13:37,200
Speaker 1: organizations may want to take responsibility for the emissions produced

1372
01:13:37,240 --> 01:13:39,960
Speaker 1: from driving the vehicles by efficient use and with the

1373
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:43,639
Speaker 1: help of nature. By investing in forestry projects that store

1374
01:13:43,680 --> 01:13:46,519
Speaker 1: and capture CO two carbon credits can be created and

1375
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:48,600
Speaker 1: used to compensate for the emissions from the use of

1376
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:51,960
Speaker 1: fossil fuel vehicles. So Shell is arguing, basically, we don't

1377
01:13:51,960 --> 01:13:53,559
Speaker 1: need to change what we're doing at all. We can

1378
01:13:53,640 --> 01:13:56,160
Speaker 1: just invest in a force in Kenya and poof net zero.

1379
01:13:56,360 --> 01:13:58,599
Speaker 1: The idea of a giant shipment of fossil fuels ever

1380
01:13:58,640 --> 01:14:01,400
Speaker 1: being labeled zero emissions as a course insulting on its face,

1381
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:03,920
Speaker 1: but a recent Bombshell report from the Guardian and a

1382
01:14:03,920 --> 01:14:06,920
Speaker 1: consortion of other journalist shows just how much folly is

1383
01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:10,599
Speaker 1: truly involved here, because apparently the whole carbon offset business

1384
01:14:10,680 --> 01:14:15,120
Speaker 1: is just one gigantic scam at best. At best, these

1385
01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:18,559
Speaker 1: offsets do nothing. At worst, they are actively making warming

1386
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:21,120
Speaker 1: worse by pulling the wool over the eyes of gullible

1387
01:14:21,160 --> 01:14:25,040
Speaker 1: consumers and complicit governments. Here's the Guardian. The headline sort

1388
01:14:25,080 --> 01:14:28,479
Speaker 1: of says it all. Revealed more than ninety percent of

1389
01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:32,759
Speaker 1: rainforest carbon offsets by biggest certifier are worthless. Analysis shows

1390
01:14:33,080 --> 01:14:37,280
Speaker 1: investigation into VERA carbon standard finds most are phantom credits

1391
01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:40,600
Speaker 1: and may worsen global heating. Now, the article goes on

1392
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:42,800
Speaker 1: to note that credits from this one company are used

1393
01:14:42,800 --> 01:14:46,960
Speaker 1: by Disney, Shell, Gucci and dozens of other corporations. In fact,

1394
01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:49,760
Speaker 1: VERA is a giant in the space, making up three

1395
01:14:49,880 --> 01:14:53,280
Speaker 1: quarters of total voluntary offsets certified in what is now

1396
01:14:53,320 --> 01:14:56,639
Speaker 1: a two billion dollar market. So this is big business,

1397
01:14:56,720 --> 01:14:59,000
Speaker 1: and it's a terrible situation for those who actually care

1398
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:01,240
Speaker 1: about dealing with the climate crisis and not just confusing

1399
01:15:01,280 --> 01:15:04,759
Speaker 1: consumers with corporate virtue signaling. In order to analyze Vera's

1400
01:15:04,760 --> 01:15:07,200
Speaker 1: claims here, the Guardian, along with their partners, relied on

1401
01:15:07,280 --> 01:15:10,760
Speaker 1: two different groups of scientists and a team of journalists

1402
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:14,360
Speaker 1: who further analyze the results those scientists found. They found

1403
01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:17,400
Speaker 1: that in quote thirty two projects where it was possible

1404
01:15:17,439 --> 01:15:20,760
Speaker 1: to compare Vera's claims with the study finding baseline scenarios

1405
01:15:20,800 --> 01:15:23,840
Speaker 1: of force loss appear to be overstated by about four

1406
01:15:24,200 --> 01:15:28,759
Speaker 1: hundred percent. Three projects in Madagascar did achieve excellent results

1407
01:15:28,800 --> 01:15:31,759
Speaker 1: and have a significant impact on the figures. If those

1408
01:15:31,840 --> 01:15:35,599
Speaker 1: projects are not included, the average inflation is about nine

1409
01:15:35,680 --> 01:15:39,759
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty percent. Vera, of course disputes the results

1410
01:15:39,800 --> 01:15:42,519
Speaker 1: and offered a different methodology which they claim showed much

1411
01:15:42,560 --> 01:15:46,080
Speaker 1: more significant carbon benefit. But what the multiple research teams

1412
01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:49,320
Speaker 1: here show is that the amount of force actually saved

1413
01:15:49,320 --> 01:15:53,000
Speaker 1: by Vera's projects is wildly less than what they estimated

1414
01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:56,240
Speaker 1: in planning their projects and selling credits. It makes sense,

1415
01:15:56,280 --> 01:15:59,480
Speaker 1: of course, VERA and other similar companies have an incentive

1416
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:02,559
Speaker 1: to cut owners and do their projects as cheaply as possible.

1417
01:16:02,720 --> 01:16:05,600
Speaker 1: Companies buying the offsets want the most greenwashing for the

1418
01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:07,680
Speaker 1: cheapest costs, so they certainly don't want to rock the

1419
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:09,719
Speaker 1: boat here, and we all want to get a product

1420
01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:12,440
Speaker 1: with little label or promotion telling us that our purchases

1421
01:16:12,520 --> 01:16:15,479
Speaker 1: are actually good for the world, not just contributing to

1422
01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:19,000
Speaker 1: a glut of planet killing crap. We feel better checking

1423
01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:21,400
Speaker 1: the little box when buying our airline ticket that claims,

1424
01:16:21,400 --> 01:16:23,719
Speaker 1: for a small price, we can offset the carbon generated

1425
01:16:23,760 --> 01:16:26,960
Speaker 1: by our weekend getaway, and governments which knowe that climate

1426
01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:31,280
Speaker 1: action is popular, are similarly disincentivized from digging too deeply

1427
01:16:31,360 --> 01:16:33,880
Speaker 1: to expose that the whole thing is actually a farce.

1428
01:16:34,120 --> 01:16:37,719
Speaker 1: It is one giant self licking ice cream cone. In fact,

1429
01:16:37,920 --> 01:16:41,280
Speaker 1: in our own country, California has the most significant state

1430
01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:45,720
Speaker 1: administered carbon offset program. Now. The idea is that homeowners

1431
01:16:45,720 --> 01:16:48,720
Speaker 1: and large landowners alike can be issued carbon credits for

1432
01:16:48,720 --> 01:16:52,080
Speaker 1: preserving trees they would have otherwise cut down. Then those

1433
01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:54,879
Speaker 1: credits can be sold to private business as carbon offsets

1434
01:16:54,880 --> 01:16:58,439
Speaker 1: to help meet their state mandated emission reduction goals. But

1435
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:01,479
Speaker 1: like other carbon office systems, the whole thing is easy

1436
01:17:01,479 --> 01:17:03,200
Speaker 1: to gain by claiming you were going to cut down

1437
01:17:03,240 --> 01:17:05,719
Speaker 1: trees that you actually never really intended to cut down,

1438
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:09,360
Speaker 1: And sure enough, new satellite data shows that the decade

1439
01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:14,360
Speaker 1: old program has accomplished literally nothing. According to this data,

1440
01:17:14,520 --> 01:17:18,120
Speaker 1: Dimber companies, they're not logging any less, and the offset

1441
01:17:18,160 --> 01:17:21,719
Speaker 1: project forests don't look any different from a carbon perspective

1442
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:24,599
Speaker 1: than areas that are not part of these offset projects.

1443
01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:27,800
Speaker 1: One way logging companies appear to gain the system is

1444
01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:31,639
Speaker 1: by claiming that forests they own which have effectively worthless trees,

1445
01:17:31,760 --> 01:17:34,720
Speaker 1: are part of the offset program. These trees are not

1446
01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:36,960
Speaker 1: valuable on the market, so the companies were not likely

1447
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:40,519
Speaker 1: to cut them down anyway. Meanwhile, they continue logging the

1448
01:17:40,560 --> 01:17:43,800
Speaker 1: areas that do have market valuable species. This has the

1449
01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:48,160
Speaker 1: perverse effect of actually subsidizing the operations of logging companies.

1450
01:17:48,200 --> 01:17:50,799
Speaker 1: That's obviously the polar opposite of what a green movement

1451
01:17:50,880 --> 01:17:53,880
Speaker 1: would actually want. As one expert told the New York

1452
01:17:53,920 --> 01:17:57,240
Speaker 1: Times quote, the most basic problem with carbon offsets is

1453
01:17:57,240 --> 01:18:00,320
Speaker 1: that you're trading a known amount of emissions with an

1454
01:18:00,439 --> 01:18:04,040
Speaker 1: uncertain amount of emission reductions. But there's also the whole

1455
01:18:04,040 --> 01:18:06,280
Speaker 1: trading approach of companies being able to buy their way

1456
01:18:06,280 --> 01:18:10,000
Speaker 1: out of their responsibility to reduce their own emissions. This

1457
01:18:10,080 --> 01:18:13,200
Speaker 1: scheme is part of how corporate America seems to confuse

1458
01:18:13,360 --> 01:18:17,720
Speaker 1: and undermine our politics, tricking affluent consumers into thinking their

1459
01:18:17,760 --> 01:18:21,240
Speaker 1: choices are noble and tricking voters into thinking that the

1460
01:18:21,280 --> 01:18:23,960
Speaker 1: masters of the universe are actually good guys driven by

1461
01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:27,360
Speaker 1: real concern for the planet. In such a landscape, forceful

1462
01:18:27,360 --> 01:18:30,519
Speaker 1: government action isn't necessary, of course, it's a clean conscience

1463
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:33,640
Speaker 1: for sale with zero challenging choices. Who wouldn't want to

1464
01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:36,280
Speaker 1: put the blinders on and pretend that it's all exactly

1465
01:18:36,439 --> 01:18:39,000
Speaker 1: as advertised? And if you want to hear my reaction

1466
01:18:39,160 --> 01:18:42,720
Speaker 1: to Crystal's monologue, become a premium subscriber today at breakingpoints

1467
01:18:42,760 --> 01:18:48,439
Speaker 1: dot com. Super excited to be joined by the creator

1468
01:18:48,560 --> 01:18:51,160
Speaker 1: of a really popular blog called weight but Why, and

1469
01:18:51,200 --> 01:18:53,360
Speaker 1: also the author of a new book that we both

1470
01:18:53,400 --> 01:18:55,280
Speaker 1: just read. Let's put this up on the screen. The

1471
01:18:55,320 --> 01:18:58,559
Speaker 1: book is called What's Our Problem? A self help book

1472
01:18:58,680 --> 01:19:02,439
Speaker 1: for societies. Tim Urban joins us. Now, great to have you, Tim,

1473
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:06,760
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on. Yeah, that's right. So you

1474
01:19:06,840 --> 01:19:10,720
Speaker 1: lay out in this book in alternative way of seeing politics,

1475
01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:13,760
Speaker 1: where yes, you have a left right spectrum, but there's

1476
01:19:13,800 --> 01:19:17,599
Speaker 1: another dynamic playing out that you describe as the difference

1477
01:19:17,640 --> 01:19:21,479
Speaker 1: between sort of higher mind approach to politics versus a

1478
01:19:21,520 --> 01:19:28,000
Speaker 1: more primitive mindset. Just explain the general thesis of the book. Yeah,

1479
01:19:28,200 --> 01:19:31,040
Speaker 1: I think, you know, if you think about how how

1480
01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:34,360
Speaker 1: language works, like when we have a term for something

1481
01:19:34,640 --> 01:19:39,400
Speaker 1: or even better like a framework, then we than our thoughts. Uh,

1482
01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:41,080
Speaker 1: you know, we have more thoughts about it. We can

1483
01:19:41,160 --> 01:19:43,360
Speaker 1: we have more conversations about it, we can refer to it,

1484
01:19:43,439 --> 01:19:45,720
Speaker 1: we can develop nuance around it. But if you don't

1485
01:19:45,760 --> 01:19:48,040
Speaker 1: have a term for something, and if you don't have

1486
01:19:48,120 --> 01:19:50,320
Speaker 1: the right framework, then that she limits our thinking. And

1487
01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:52,360
Speaker 1: I think that's a big part of what's been happening

1488
01:19:52,360 --> 01:19:55,600
Speaker 1: with our politics is we have this one dimensional horizontal

1489
01:19:55,640 --> 01:19:58,519
Speaker 1: spectrum left, center, right, you know, far right and far

1490
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:03,519
Speaker 1: left right, that's it. And and so that's very limiting,

1491
01:20:03,560 --> 01:20:07,120
Speaker 1: and I think it actually leads to people saying stuff

1492
01:20:07,120 --> 01:20:08,960
Speaker 1: they're not really They're trying to say something and they're

1493
01:20:08,960 --> 01:20:11,800
Speaker 1: saying something else. So they'll say something like, you know,

1494
01:20:11,840 --> 01:20:13,880
Speaker 1: we need more people in the center, and maybe they

1495
01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:16,720
Speaker 1: do mean that horizontally, but that's not really what they're

1496
01:20:16,760 --> 01:20:19,200
Speaker 1: talking about. I'm not saying we need more people that

1497
01:20:19,360 --> 01:20:22,240
Speaker 1: are halfway between the right and the left position on

1498
01:20:22,400 --> 01:20:25,200
Speaker 1: tax cuts. That's not what they're saying. What they're trying

1499
01:20:25,240 --> 01:20:26,960
Speaker 1: to say is we need more people who are open

1500
01:20:27,040 --> 01:20:29,439
Speaker 1: to open minded and who are open to you know,

1501
01:20:29,600 --> 01:20:32,280
Speaker 1: who are down to really debate their ideas and who

1502
01:20:32,360 --> 01:20:34,920
Speaker 1: might change their mind about it, and who get into

1503
01:20:34,920 --> 01:20:38,120
Speaker 1: the nuance and who aren't dogmatic, and who don't you know,

1504
01:20:38,600 --> 01:20:43,080
Speaker 1: who don't form their opinions via kind of a checklist.

1505
01:20:44,160 --> 01:20:47,000
Speaker 1: And so that to me, center is not the word.

1506
01:20:47,000 --> 01:20:50,120
Speaker 1: That's just another position on the horizontal axis. It sometimes

1507
01:20:50,160 --> 01:20:53,160
Speaker 1: correlates with what I'm talking about, but it's a different thing.

1508
01:20:53,200 --> 01:20:55,080
Speaker 1: So I said, okay, let's make a second axis. Let's

1509
01:20:55,080 --> 01:20:57,440
Speaker 1: just like make it a square instead of a line,

1510
01:20:57,520 --> 01:21:00,160
Speaker 1: and the vertical dimension I'll call it the latter. And

1511
01:21:00,240 --> 01:21:04,080
Speaker 1: so you have kind of high wrong thinking, high wrong

1512
01:21:04,200 --> 01:21:07,000
Speaker 1: politics and low wrong you know politics, low wrong thinking.

1513
01:21:09,080 --> 01:21:12,280
Speaker 1: And again there's nothing novel here. Everyone knows what I'm

1514
01:21:12,320 --> 01:21:15,280
Speaker 1: talking about. It's just that we don't we we we don't.

1515
01:21:15,280 --> 01:21:18,320
Speaker 1: We don't really like have the frame so so high

1516
01:21:18,320 --> 01:21:20,599
Speaker 1: wrong politics to me, and this again is a this

1517
01:21:20,680 --> 01:21:22,640
Speaker 1: is a subset of kind of the broader concept of

1518
01:21:22,680 --> 01:21:29,439
Speaker 1: high wrong thinking. It's concerned with, uh, you know, moving

1519
01:21:29,439 --> 01:21:31,880
Speaker 1: towards a more perfect union, you know, as Abe lincos

1520
01:21:31,920 --> 01:21:34,559
Speaker 1: in right. It's like it's actually that's really what's going on.

1521
01:21:34,600 --> 01:21:37,559
Speaker 1: They're really you know, and there's heated debates. It's like people,

1522
01:21:37,680 --> 01:21:39,840
Speaker 1: it's not saying that a lot of people mistake you know,

1523
01:21:39,920 --> 01:21:41,800
Speaker 1: what I'm saying hig wrong. It's for stability and for

1524
01:21:41,880 --> 01:21:44,400
Speaker 1: being nice and for being no, no no, no, people get angry.

1525
01:21:44,479 --> 01:21:47,360
Speaker 1: They they're heated. They can hate the other side. They

1526
01:21:47,360 --> 01:21:50,519
Speaker 1: can hate people who disagree with them, but uh, they

1527
01:21:50,560 --> 01:21:53,640
Speaker 1: attack ideas, they don't attack people. They're not tribal about it.

1528
01:21:53,680 --> 01:21:55,880
Speaker 1: They don't think that we are the good, righteous people

1529
01:21:56,280 --> 01:21:58,400
Speaker 1: who agree with each other on everything and you are

1530
01:21:58,479 --> 01:22:00,920
Speaker 1: the bat They they they're all over the place. And

1531
01:22:01,000 --> 01:22:04,559
Speaker 1: any individual you know, if you have individual thinking, you're

1532
01:22:04,600 --> 01:22:07,880
Speaker 1: going to have true and you know a bunch of

1533
01:22:07,880 --> 01:22:10,519
Speaker 1: individuals truly independent thinking, you're gonna they're gonna be all

1534
01:22:10,520 --> 01:22:12,120
Speaker 1: over the place with the reviews, right, and that's what

1535
01:22:12,240 --> 01:22:15,840
Speaker 1: you're right and and they're you know, if they apply

1536
01:22:16,479 --> 01:22:19,360
Speaker 1: you know, a moral judgment, they apply it consistently. So

1537
01:22:19,400 --> 01:22:23,120
Speaker 1: if they think that, you know, drones in Afghanistan are bad,

1538
01:22:24,439 --> 01:22:26,080
Speaker 1: they're not going to change that view. And it's a

1539
01:22:26,080 --> 01:22:28,240
Speaker 1: different president in office, they're not going to change their

1540
01:22:28,240 --> 01:22:31,200
Speaker 1: review on executive overreach or on you know, anything else.

1541
01:22:31,200 --> 01:22:32,960
Speaker 1: When there's a different president in office, right, because it's

1542
01:22:32,960 --> 01:22:35,639
Speaker 1: just that that's not how grown up thinkers do things. Right.

1543
01:22:35,680 --> 01:22:39,519
Speaker 1: It's so it's kind of consistent. It's it's open minded,

1544
01:22:39,560 --> 01:22:43,639
Speaker 1: it's willing to change your mind. There's the core value

1545
01:22:44,040 --> 01:22:47,120
Speaker 1: is truth, you know, trying to actually figure out what's true,

1546
01:22:47,520 --> 01:22:51,760
Speaker 1: and then they try to achieve what they want via persuasion. Right,

1547
01:22:51,760 --> 01:22:54,120
Speaker 1: they will argue and they will try to attack ideas,

1548
01:22:54,760 --> 01:22:57,040
Speaker 1: and you know, you don't attack people if you're trying

1549
01:22:57,040 --> 01:22:58,599
Speaker 1: to persuade them. You attack the ideas and you try

1550
01:22:58,640 --> 01:23:00,960
Speaker 1: to show why it's wrong. And so that's what they

1551
01:23:00,960 --> 01:23:03,280
Speaker 1: call high roaring politics, and it's to me, it's just

1552
01:23:03,360 --> 01:23:05,759
Speaker 1: kind of grown up politics. It's what like any reasonable

1553
01:23:05,880 --> 01:23:07,840
Speaker 1: it's how this it's how reasonable grown ups behave in

1554
01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:11,120
Speaker 1: every other arena. It's just if only they behaved that

1555
01:23:11,160 --> 01:23:13,640
Speaker 1: way in this arena too, Right, So that idea is

1556
01:23:13,680 --> 01:23:17,760
Speaker 1: like nuanced, open to different, open to having their mind change.

1557
01:23:18,200 --> 01:23:20,880
Speaker 1: If they have a principle, they try to apply it consistently,

1558
01:23:21,080 --> 01:23:24,479
Speaker 1: not just be like weirdo partisan cheerleaders. So then what

1559
01:23:24,600 --> 01:23:26,880
Speaker 1: is the what are some of the qualities that are

1560
01:23:26,960 --> 01:23:29,680
Speaker 1: characterized by the lower rung thinking that you lay on

1561
01:23:29,720 --> 01:23:33,519
Speaker 1: in the book yeah. I think I call it political

1562
01:23:33,560 --> 01:23:35,760
Speaker 1: Disney World because like I think of Disney movies. You know,

1563
01:23:35,800 --> 01:23:39,360
Speaker 1: there is villains, there's you know, symbol goods, Scar bad right,

1564
01:23:39,400 --> 01:23:43,679
Speaker 1: Aladdin good to far bad right, and it's it's these

1565
01:23:43,760 --> 01:23:46,519
Speaker 1: you know, it's like this binary code of ones and zeros, right,

1566
01:23:46,520 --> 01:23:50,000
Speaker 1: and there's and and and and and so again. That's

1567
01:23:50,000 --> 01:23:52,559
Speaker 1: great for kids. You don't expect grown ups to be

1568
01:23:52,560 --> 01:23:54,400
Speaker 1: thinking like why why would grown ups be thinking that way?

1569
01:23:54,439 --> 01:23:56,639
Speaker 1: That's not No one in the right mind thinks that's

1570
01:23:56,640 --> 01:23:58,360
Speaker 1: how the real world is where that's how people are.

1571
01:23:58,439 --> 01:24:01,559
Speaker 1: There's not good good people and the bad people with

1572
01:24:01,640 --> 01:24:03,720
Speaker 1: the good ideas and the bad idea. It's just not

1573
01:24:03,920 --> 01:24:10,080
Speaker 1: how anything works, especially a complicated society's incredibly complicated political environment. Right,

1574
01:24:10,080 --> 01:24:13,000
Speaker 1: it's not going to be like that, but politics is

1575
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:15,760
Speaker 1: one of those topics that drags our mind into this,

1576
01:24:15,880 --> 01:24:18,519
Speaker 1: you know, kind of primitive zone where we were not

1577
01:24:18,560 --> 01:24:22,280
Speaker 1: thinking straight and we we we're not acting like ourselves almost,

1578
01:24:22,320 --> 01:24:23,920
Speaker 1: And so you have all these people that are totally

1579
01:24:24,000 --> 01:24:28,160
Speaker 1: normal and great and in other areas really believe that

1580
01:24:28,240 --> 01:24:31,360
Speaker 1: they are on the good team of righteous heroes fighting

1581
01:24:31,479 --> 01:24:35,160
Speaker 1: for they have all the answers. There's their team is

1582
01:24:35,200 --> 01:24:37,360
Speaker 1: right about everything, and the other team is wrong about everything,

1583
01:24:37,360 --> 01:24:39,479
Speaker 1: and every problem in the society is because the other

1584
01:24:39,560 --> 01:24:43,800
Speaker 1: bad not just wrong but bad evil team is it's

1585
01:24:43,800 --> 01:24:48,519
Speaker 1: their fault. And and they they abide, you know, it's

1586
01:24:48,560 --> 01:24:52,080
Speaker 1: it's it's you. They abide by a checklist. So it's, uh,

1587
01:24:52,360 --> 01:24:55,439
Speaker 1: it's that if that someone who's really mired in political

1588
01:24:55,520 --> 01:24:58,400
Speaker 1: disney world or low wrung politics tells you their position

1589
01:24:58,479 --> 01:25:01,679
Speaker 1: on guns boom, you know their position on climate change,

1590
01:25:01,720 --> 01:25:06,200
Speaker 1: you know their position on on you know whatever, Russia

1591
01:25:06,200 --> 01:25:09,280
Speaker 1: and Ukraine. You know their position on abortion and taxes

1592
01:25:09,680 --> 01:25:12,040
Speaker 1: and social justice and every single other thing right, And

1593
01:25:12,080 --> 01:25:15,360
Speaker 1: so it's, uh, that's not thinking, right, that's that's that's

1594
01:25:15,400 --> 01:25:18,000
Speaker 1: the no. If you have ten independent thinkers, there's no

1595
01:25:18,040 --> 01:25:20,639
Speaker 1: way they're going to happen to agree on ten separate issues.

1596
01:25:21,600 --> 01:25:25,800
Speaker 1: It's only if you have this checklist that is kind

1597
01:25:25,800 --> 01:25:29,439
Speaker 1: of the tribe's approved checklist of ideas, that you're going

1598
01:25:29,520 --> 01:25:32,000
Speaker 1: to have that. And so to me, when I look

1599
01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:34,520
Speaker 1: at the problems, it's like there's two tiers of problems.

1600
01:25:35,040 --> 01:25:37,479
Speaker 1: One you could say there's the horizontal disagreements. Okay, you

1601
01:25:37,479 --> 01:25:38,800
Speaker 1: know what is the left and the right doing what

1602
01:25:38,840 --> 01:25:40,800
Speaker 1: are they doing. Someone you know, someone is more on

1603
01:25:40,840 --> 01:25:44,080
Speaker 1: track with each policy probably than others. What's happening there,

1604
01:25:44,120 --> 01:25:46,719
Speaker 1: But to me, that is dwarfed by the much bigger

1605
01:25:47,520 --> 01:25:51,360
Speaker 1: dispute going on, which is between kind of like sanity

1606
01:25:51,920 --> 01:25:54,880
Speaker 1: and just acting like reasonable grown ups and politics who

1607
01:25:54,920 --> 01:25:57,679
Speaker 1: can actually move things forward and actually make positive change.

1608
01:25:57,720 --> 01:26:01,679
Speaker 1: It's a positive some game and this other game that's

1609
01:26:01,720 --> 01:26:05,600
Speaker 1: going on, this crazy tribal game that that has huge hostility,

1610
01:26:05,600 --> 01:26:07,200
Speaker 1: by the way, not just to each other, but to

1611
01:26:07,200 --> 01:26:10,519
Speaker 1: the high run game that the low rung game hates

1612
01:26:10,560 --> 01:26:12,400
Speaker 1: the high rung game. You know, it gets called you know,

1613
01:26:12,439 --> 01:26:15,719
Speaker 1: they call them all kinds of you know, enlightened centrists,

1614
01:26:15,840 --> 01:26:18,479
Speaker 1: spineless centrists. They say that you're giving you know, the

1615
01:26:18,560 --> 01:26:21,559
Speaker 1: other that you know, dangerous ideas a platform you know,

1616
01:26:21,800 --> 01:26:25,400
Speaker 1: you know, debate. Is this negative thing? Don so So Yeah,

1617
01:26:25,439 --> 01:26:27,479
Speaker 1: So anyway, this is the framework that I basically then

1618
01:26:27,560 --> 01:26:30,479
Speaker 1: built built this book around. Yeah, you are reciting all

1619
01:26:30,520 --> 01:26:33,880
Speaker 1: the criticisms of our show there, Tim, So we're every

1620
01:26:33,920 --> 01:26:37,200
Speaker 1: one of those. Yes. One of the things I actually

1621
01:26:37,280 --> 01:26:40,360
Speaker 1: like about the book and some of the infographics, which

1622
01:26:40,360 --> 01:26:42,240
Speaker 1: are fantastic, by the way, I recommend everybody going to

1623
01:26:42,240 --> 01:26:44,840
Speaker 1: follow Tim on Twitter and read weight at y dot

1624
01:26:44,840 --> 01:26:47,320
Speaker 1: com because the infographics that you put together are really

1625
01:26:47,360 --> 01:26:50,400
Speaker 1: easily digestible and they kind of narrow home this point.

1626
01:26:50,439 --> 01:26:52,479
Speaker 1: One of them being the media. You have the famous

1627
01:26:52,520 --> 01:26:55,760
Speaker 1: dog and the raccoon headlines that you have side by

1628
01:26:55,800 --> 01:26:57,360
Speaker 1: side that I have even pulled up in front of

1629
01:26:57,360 --> 01:26:59,200
Speaker 1: me just because I love it so much. Can you

1630
01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:01,880
Speaker 1: can you lay out them media role in this both

1631
01:27:02,200 --> 01:27:04,120
Speaker 1: not only how they handle it, but then how that

1632
01:27:04,200 --> 01:27:06,920
Speaker 1: is then digested and used, as you said by low

1633
01:27:06,960 --> 01:27:12,040
Speaker 1: wrong thinkers. Yeah, so there's been a seismic shift in

1634
01:27:12,080 --> 01:27:15,680
Speaker 1: our environment. If you take any animal and you you

1635
01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:19,200
Speaker 1: take their nature and you change the environment, you're gonna

1636
01:27:19,200 --> 01:27:21,439
Speaker 1: see different behavior. Right, that's same nature is going to

1637
01:27:21,520 --> 01:27:25,120
Speaker 1: output different people. So humans are no different. Human nature

1638
01:27:25,160 --> 01:27:28,000
Speaker 1: is not different than it was ten twenty one hundred

1639
01:27:28,320 --> 01:27:31,080
Speaker 1: thousand years ago. What changes is the environment and then

1640
01:27:31,080 --> 01:27:34,360
Speaker 1: our behavior changes. And one of the major elements of

1641
01:27:34,400 --> 01:27:40,519
Speaker 1: a modern democracy's environment is their media landscape. And and

1642
01:27:40,640 --> 01:27:43,919
Speaker 1: there's been a seismic shift to that that has obviously

1643
01:27:44,120 --> 01:27:48,280
Speaker 1: massive consequences of all kinds. And the shift is that

1644
01:27:48,360 --> 01:27:53,920
Speaker 1: there used to be three broadcast national news channels, and

1645
01:27:53,920 --> 01:27:56,519
Speaker 1: they weren't news channels, by the way, they were CBS, NBC, ABC,

1646
01:27:56,640 --> 01:27:59,439
Speaker 1: they you know, and they did a lot of stuff

1647
01:27:59,479 --> 01:28:01,960
Speaker 1: and they have Flower of News twice a day or something, right,

1648
01:28:03,120 --> 01:28:07,800
Speaker 1: and and so I mean, it's just it's not that

1649
01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:10,160
Speaker 1: those were better people running those stations. And I don't

1650
01:28:10,160 --> 01:28:12,160
Speaker 1: think they don't really think these there's any any of

1651
01:28:12,200 --> 01:28:14,439
Speaker 1: this story is about better or worse people. It's that

1652
01:28:14,479 --> 01:28:16,599
Speaker 1: they had incentives, right if they if one of them,

1653
01:28:16,640 --> 01:28:19,600
Speaker 1: if NBC starts to get known for being really biased

1654
01:28:19,760 --> 01:28:22,160
Speaker 1: towards the left or right and really kind of like,

1655
01:28:22,680 --> 01:28:24,559
Speaker 1: you know, they'll rush to a story and tell it

1656
01:28:24,600 --> 01:28:27,760
Speaker 1: with no journalistic integrity, and like they'll just like, you know,

1657
01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:30,120
Speaker 1: they're wrong all the time and they don't apologize, and

1658
01:28:30,160 --> 01:28:32,280
Speaker 1: the other two aren't like that that. You know, NBC

1659
01:28:32,400 --> 01:28:34,400
Speaker 1: would become the laughing stock, right, everyone saying, oh, you

1660
01:28:34,439 --> 01:28:36,200
Speaker 1: know the kind of person who watches NBC, you would

1661
01:28:36,200 --> 01:28:37,559
Speaker 1: become a joke. Right, So they don't want to do that.

1662
01:28:37,600 --> 01:28:39,000
Speaker 1: They all want to try to fight with each other.

1663
01:28:39,040 --> 01:28:40,840
Speaker 1: Who could be more professional, right, who can see who

1664
01:28:40,840 --> 01:28:43,160
Speaker 1: can be more accurate and and have and and you

1665
01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:46,519
Speaker 1: can never tell the the political leaning of the anchors.

1666
01:28:46,520 --> 01:28:48,040
Speaker 1: That was a huge thing, right. It was like they

1667
01:28:48,080 --> 01:28:50,479
Speaker 1: were all famously secretive about it because that's not professional

1668
01:28:50,560 --> 01:28:53,360
Speaker 1: for a newsperson. Why would it okay? So that environment

1669
01:28:54,280 --> 01:28:55,920
Speaker 1: and they also had thirty minutes a day, right, so

1670
01:28:55,960 --> 01:28:58,280
Speaker 1: they would I need to that's not much time. You

1671
01:28:58,320 --> 01:29:00,839
Speaker 1: got to really what's really important today in the news.

1672
01:29:02,280 --> 01:29:05,160
Speaker 1: Now that changes. You have cable TV, so then you

1673
01:29:05,200 --> 01:29:07,800
Speaker 1: have at CNN, you have MSNBC, you have Fox News.

1674
01:29:07,840 --> 01:29:09,679
Speaker 1: You have all these just spring up in the eighties

1675
01:29:09,720 --> 01:29:12,639
Speaker 1: and nineties really mid nineties for MSNBC and Fox News

1676
01:29:12,680 --> 01:29:16,040
Speaker 1: pretty recent. And then you have of course the Internet, right,

1677
01:29:16,080 --> 01:29:18,160
Speaker 1: and you have you know, a Drudge Report, and you

1678
01:29:18,160 --> 01:29:19,680
Speaker 1: have Huffington Post, and you have Brightbart and you have

1679
01:29:19,720 --> 01:29:21,799
Speaker 1: all these these things pop up in a million political

1680
01:29:21,880 --> 01:29:27,200
Speaker 1: blogs and it's a totally different game. So you realize

1681
01:29:27,240 --> 01:29:28,560
Speaker 1: is if you're not, if you're not, you don't have

1682
01:29:28,600 --> 01:29:32,040
Speaker 1: the burden of being broadcasting to the whole country, and

1683
01:29:32,080 --> 01:29:35,320
Speaker 1: you can narrow cast. And really, you know, Fox News

1684
01:29:35,400 --> 01:29:37,040
Speaker 1: kind of was a pioneer here and a lot of

1685
01:29:37,040 --> 01:29:39,200
Speaker 1: others copied it. You know, if you can, if you

1686
01:29:39,240 --> 01:29:41,400
Speaker 1: can narrow cast and say, you don't screw the other half,

1687
01:29:41,520 --> 01:29:44,240
Speaker 1: if we can just we don't have to seem objective.

1688
01:29:44,720 --> 01:29:49,320
Speaker 1: Let's just really confirm theless cater to one tribe. There

1689
01:29:49,360 --> 01:29:52,240
Speaker 1: are these tribes, let's just be the news for that tribe.

1690
01:29:52,720 --> 01:29:55,439
Speaker 1: Totally does narrow casting and it's and it's tribal media

1691
01:29:55,520 --> 01:29:57,599
Speaker 1: kind of right, it's it's specifically is trying to say

1692
01:29:57,960 --> 01:30:01,719
Speaker 1: the incentives totally ship. Now your audience becomes very quickly.

1693
01:30:01,800 --> 01:30:04,799
Speaker 1: You know, they're people who want professional neutrality, they're long gone.

1694
01:30:04,880 --> 01:30:09,400
Speaker 1: Your audience becomes these people who are addicted to this game,

1695
01:30:09,520 --> 01:30:11,920
Speaker 1: this tribal war, that that that that they're they're in

1696
01:30:11,960 --> 01:30:15,640
Speaker 1: political Disney world. And so now the incentives become accuracy,

1697
01:30:15,720 --> 01:30:18,519
Speaker 1: not as much like neutrality, definitely not right. The accurate

1698
01:30:18,680 --> 01:30:22,760
Speaker 1: incentives become tell these people why they're right and they're good,

1699
01:30:22,840 --> 01:30:25,360
Speaker 1: and why those other people are so bad? How awful

1700
01:30:25,360 --> 01:30:28,519
Speaker 1: are those other people done? Yeah, so what's that going

1701
01:30:28,560 --> 01:30:30,479
Speaker 1: to do to? You know that? And that? How's that?

1702
01:30:30,560 --> 01:30:32,959
Speaker 1: Of course that's going to have a massive effect on behavior.

1703
01:30:33,160 --> 01:30:35,840
Speaker 1: So what's happening is you go from news that was

1704
01:30:36,240 --> 01:30:40,720
Speaker 1: kind of informing I wrung politics to news that is like,

1705
01:30:41,360 --> 01:30:47,559
Speaker 1: uh like is just stoking low rung politics, that is

1706
01:30:47,600 --> 01:30:51,680
Speaker 1: just completely igniting low rung politics and tim you go

1707
01:30:51,760 --> 01:30:55,880
Speaker 1: through in the book your analysis of the version of

1708
01:30:56,479 --> 01:30:59,360
Speaker 1: low rung politics that happens on the right, but you

1709
01:30:59,400 --> 01:31:02,400
Speaker 1: spend the bulk of the book going over what you

1710
01:31:02,479 --> 01:31:07,360
Speaker 1: describe as social justice fundamentalism. And I'm curious, since you

1711
01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:10,080
Speaker 1: started this book, you know, a number of years ago,

1712
01:31:10,439 --> 01:31:13,360
Speaker 1: if you think the landscape of what you call social

1713
01:31:13,439 --> 01:31:17,000
Speaker 1: justice fundamentalism you might call it woke, is cancel culture

1714
01:31:17,160 --> 01:31:19,240
Speaker 1: like it has a lot of different words to describe,

1715
01:31:19,240 --> 01:31:20,639
Speaker 1: which I think is part of why you spend such

1716
01:31:20,640 --> 01:31:24,439
Speaker 1: a long time teasing out your specific definition here. Do

1717
01:31:24,479 --> 01:31:27,679
Speaker 1: you think that landscape has changed? And do you also

1718
01:31:28,200 --> 01:31:31,559
Speaker 1: see you mentioned this a little bit in the book,

1719
01:31:31,680 --> 01:31:35,360
Speaker 1: but in the reaction to that social justice fundamentalism, I

1720
01:31:35,400 --> 01:31:39,160
Speaker 1: see some of those same authoritarian tactics and low run

1721
01:31:39,240 --> 01:31:42,000
Speaker 1: thinking being deployed in terms of you know, book bands

1722
01:31:42,080 --> 01:31:46,160
Speaker 1: or constraining curriculums and constraining protests, those sorts of things.

1723
01:31:46,160 --> 01:31:48,000
Speaker 1: So I wonder if you feel like the landscape has

1724
01:31:48,000 --> 01:31:53,479
Speaker 1: shifted since you first started writing the book. Yeah, I mean,

1725
01:31:53,680 --> 01:31:58,280
Speaker 1: so I created this term social justice fundamentalism because it's,

1726
01:31:58,320 --> 01:31:59,720
Speaker 1: like I said, you know, the same thing with needing

1727
01:31:59,760 --> 01:32:03,200
Speaker 1: of artical access, like you need more labels because right

1728
01:32:03,200 --> 01:32:05,599
Speaker 1: now it's either you like social justice or you don't.

1729
01:32:05,640 --> 01:32:08,559
Speaker 1: And it's like, well, you know, Martin Luther King was

1730
01:32:08,800 --> 01:32:11,599
Speaker 1: classic social justice activists, right, I don't know how many

1731
01:32:11,640 --> 01:32:14,080
Speaker 1: many people who think he was bad or don't like him. Right. So,

1732
01:32:14,840 --> 01:32:19,040
Speaker 1: like women's suffrage and emancipation, and the gay rights movement

1733
01:32:19,080 --> 01:32:20,760
Speaker 1: and civil rights movement, these are all like what I

1734
01:32:20,760 --> 01:32:24,400
Speaker 1: would call liberal social justice and liberal meaning like lowercase L.

1735
01:32:24,479 --> 01:32:28,519
Speaker 1: Like they are trying to make the country more liberal. Right,

1736
01:32:28,520 --> 01:32:31,479
Speaker 1: they say that the liberal promises in the Constitution are great,

1737
01:32:31,560 --> 01:32:34,920
Speaker 1: and we're not doing so great at them. Let's do better, Right,

1738
01:32:35,000 --> 01:32:37,160
Speaker 1: Let's break the laws that are illiberal to show how

1739
01:32:37,160 --> 01:32:39,160
Speaker 1: illiberal they are so we can make things more liberal.

1740
01:32:39,280 --> 01:32:42,080
Speaker 1: Let's use liberal tools like free speech and voting and

1741
01:32:42,240 --> 01:32:46,519
Speaker 1: protest and three assembly, you know, use the liberal tools

1742
01:32:46,560 --> 01:32:49,600
Speaker 1: to make this country better. Social justice fundamentalism to me

1743
01:32:49,760 --> 01:32:52,679
Speaker 1: is the polar opposite. It's not like it's all those

1744
01:32:52,720 --> 01:32:55,599
Speaker 1: are the really far left, you know, extra social justice people. No, no,

1745
01:32:55,600 --> 01:33:00,400
Speaker 1: those are. It's the exact opposite philosophy, which is that

1746
01:33:00,479 --> 01:33:02,559
Speaker 1: it's not that liberalism is as good, but we need

1747
01:33:02,600 --> 01:33:04,440
Speaker 1: to do we need more of it. It's that liberalism

1748
01:33:04,600 --> 01:33:07,240
Speaker 1: is the problem. It's it's it stems from you know,

1749
01:33:07,360 --> 01:33:12,120
Speaker 1: stems from Marxism and you know neo Marxist ideologies. Uh.

1750
01:33:12,360 --> 01:33:16,640
Speaker 1: And the idea there is that that liberalism is inherently

1751
01:33:16,720 --> 01:33:22,080
Speaker 1: oppressive and that you need something much more revolutionary than

1752
01:33:22,200 --> 01:33:25,240
Speaker 1: using free speech to fix bad policies or fix bad laws.

1753
01:33:25,280 --> 01:33:28,160
Speaker 1: You need to overthrow the order. And you know, as

1754
01:33:28,200 --> 01:33:30,880
Speaker 1: Audre Lord says, you can't use the master's tools to

1755
01:33:30,880 --> 01:33:33,120
Speaker 1: fix the master's house. So free speech is not going

1756
01:33:33,160 --> 01:33:34,720
Speaker 1: to be your friend. That's part of that's what they

1757
01:33:34,720 --> 01:33:37,200
Speaker 1: want you to do. Free speech has to be shut down, right.

1758
01:33:37,439 --> 01:33:40,840
Speaker 1: Liberalist's part of liberalism. So the whole, the Master's house

1759
01:33:40,880 --> 01:33:43,120
Speaker 1: and all the tools in it are need to be overthrown.

1760
01:33:44,120 --> 01:33:46,040
Speaker 1: And then, you know, and then and then so you

1761
01:33:46,080 --> 01:33:49,519
Speaker 1: see that authoritarianism, which is illiberal, right, coming through in

1762
01:33:49,600 --> 01:33:52,559
Speaker 1: the tactics. Instead of persuasion, it's will get you said.

1763
01:33:52,560 --> 01:33:54,080
Speaker 1: You know, if someone says something you don't like, and

1764
01:33:54,120 --> 01:33:56,639
Speaker 1: you're a liberal social justice activist, you'll say, Okay, here's

1765
01:33:56,640 --> 01:33:58,920
Speaker 1: why that's wrong. I'm gonna show everyone. I'm gonna I'm

1766
01:33:58,920 --> 01:34:01,679
Speaker 1: gonna use use free speech to show why that's wrong.

1767
01:34:01,880 --> 01:34:04,000
Speaker 1: But the social justice fundamentalists would say, is we need

1768
01:34:04,000 --> 01:34:05,680
Speaker 1: to cancel that person who to punish them so that

1769
01:34:05,720 --> 01:34:08,280
Speaker 1: no one else argues that again, which is again that's

1770
01:34:08,680 --> 01:34:10,960
Speaker 1: if you think liberalism is bad, this is this is

1771
01:34:11,000 --> 01:34:15,160
Speaker 1: how you behave So anyway, the landscape, I've noticed huge

1772
01:34:15,200 --> 01:34:18,280
Speaker 1: changes since I started, which is at the beginning, I

1773
01:34:18,320 --> 01:34:22,479
Speaker 1: think people didn't even see any difference here. They I

1774
01:34:22,520 --> 01:34:24,479
Speaker 1: think a lot of people on the left thought that,

1775
01:34:24,520 --> 01:34:26,599
Speaker 1: you know, what we today call awokeness, it wasn't called

1776
01:34:26,600 --> 01:34:28,920
Speaker 1: that back then, is purely good? Is this is our

1777
01:34:28,920 --> 01:34:31,240
Speaker 1: today's version of the civil rights movement. And then I

1778
01:34:31,240 --> 01:34:33,040
Speaker 1: think a lot of people start to say, something's up here,

1779
01:34:33,080 --> 01:34:36,280
Speaker 1: something's wrong right, this is not these people are are

1780
01:34:36,600 --> 01:34:40,759
Speaker 1: not doing it right anymore or something, And they started

1781
01:34:40,760 --> 01:34:46,839
Speaker 1: to maybe have those conversations in private, and I think

1782
01:34:47,280 --> 01:34:50,479
Speaker 1: that we are just starting, and I'm not sure even

1783
01:34:50,520 --> 01:34:52,160
Speaker 1: there yet, getting to a place where and I think

1784
01:34:52,439 --> 01:34:54,599
Speaker 1: some people are starting to feel okay, maybe saying this

1785
01:34:54,640 --> 01:34:58,040
Speaker 1: more publicly, maybe actually changing the policy at their company

1786
01:34:58,120 --> 01:35:02,600
Speaker 1: that is that has been created by social justice fundamentalism.

1787
01:35:05,160 --> 01:35:07,200
Speaker 1: But then you see you mentioned the right, and so yeah,

1788
01:35:07,240 --> 01:35:10,479
Speaker 1: I think what I see it as is I don't

1789
01:35:10,520 --> 01:35:13,840
Speaker 1: see the problem as social justice fundamentalism, and I don't

1790
01:35:13,880 --> 01:35:15,840
Speaker 1: see the problem as Trump. You know, I think Trump

1791
01:35:15,880 --> 01:35:18,559
Speaker 1: is a demogogue, right. I think he is a classic

1792
01:35:18,640 --> 01:35:21,280
Speaker 1: kind of there's always demagogue people who want to be

1793
01:35:21,360 --> 01:35:27,000
Speaker 1: president and kind of use use lies and and basically

1794
01:35:27,000 --> 01:35:29,360
Speaker 1: play on people's worst instincts and and you know, kind

1795
01:35:29,360 --> 01:35:31,800
Speaker 1: of the dictator mentality. There's always those people. But why

1796
01:35:31,840 --> 01:35:34,280
Speaker 1: is Trump rising up now? Right? And why is social

1797
01:35:34,320 --> 01:35:36,640
Speaker 1: justice fund that? There's always ideologies that are illiberal that

1798
01:35:36,720 --> 01:35:39,360
Speaker 1: want to shut down liberalism, but they can't usually, So

1799
01:35:39,400 --> 01:35:42,320
Speaker 1: what's going on? And so I see a bigger trend

1800
01:35:42,400 --> 01:35:44,280
Speaker 1: going on, kind of this downward spiral of the country

1801
01:35:44,320 --> 01:35:45,760
Speaker 1: has been in and I think the media is part

1802
01:35:45,800 --> 01:35:47,200
Speaker 1: of it. I think there's a lot of things that

1803
01:35:47,240 --> 01:35:50,080
Speaker 1: go into it, you know. It just we've become more

1804
01:35:50,640 --> 01:35:52,360
Speaker 1: we've lost kind of the foreign threat in a lot

1805
01:35:52,400 --> 01:35:55,200
Speaker 1: of ways, so there's not that uniting force up there

1806
01:35:55,280 --> 01:35:58,160
Speaker 1: kind of on the patriotic level. And also the parties

1807
01:35:58,200 --> 01:36:01,280
Speaker 1: have aligned so that there's not progresses and conservatives within

1808
01:36:01,320 --> 01:36:03,120
Speaker 1: each part like there used to be. So there's a

1809
01:36:03,160 --> 01:36:05,320
Speaker 1: lot of so now you just have this one concentrated

1810
01:36:05,320 --> 01:36:08,080
Speaker 1: tribal divide, right, there's nothing that's diffusing it above or below.

1811
01:36:08,439 --> 01:36:09,800
Speaker 1: There's a lot of things you can point to, but

1812
01:36:09,840 --> 01:36:11,600
Speaker 1: I think that, yeah, when I'm not surprised when I

1813
01:36:11,600 --> 01:36:14,000
Speaker 1: see then the right maybe acting more authoritarian or maybe

1814
01:36:14,040 --> 01:36:18,439
Speaker 1: doing overreach of their own because to me, it's like, yeah,

1815
01:36:18,439 --> 01:36:20,240
Speaker 1: this is a whirlpool. We're all caught it and the

1816
01:36:20,240 --> 01:36:22,439
Speaker 1: whole thing is caught in it right now, and so

1817
01:36:22,880 --> 01:36:25,599
Speaker 1: you're not socially you may maybe you'll get maybe wokeness

1818
01:36:25,600 --> 01:36:27,559
Speaker 1: goes on the decline, we say you have you passed

1819
01:36:27,600 --> 01:36:30,240
Speaker 1: peak woke Maybe we have. Maybe it goes something else.

1820
01:36:30,280 --> 01:36:32,240
Speaker 1: Another movement is going to crop up and it's going

1821
01:36:32,320 --> 01:36:35,680
Speaker 1: to be it's going to be bad. And then another demagogue,

1822
01:36:35,680 --> 01:36:37,439
Speaker 1: maybe it's on the left this time. Who knows, another

1823
01:36:37,479 --> 01:36:39,759
Speaker 1: demogogue is going to is going to rise to power.

1824
01:36:39,800 --> 01:36:42,640
Speaker 1: So until we fix this bigger problem and understand what

1825
01:36:42,720 --> 01:36:47,240
Speaker 1: it is, this is not the last of it. Yeah really,

1826
01:36:47,280 --> 01:36:49,720
Speaker 1: well said well tam Oh, go ahead. I was just

1827
01:36:49,720 --> 01:36:51,760
Speaker 1: going to say the book is great. I think people

1828
01:36:51,760 --> 01:36:53,640
Speaker 1: should you know, read it. There were pieces of it

1829
01:36:53,680 --> 01:36:55,320
Speaker 1: I really agreed with. There are pieces of it I

1830
01:36:55,320 --> 01:36:57,320
Speaker 1: disagreed with, but all of it I think made me

1831
01:36:57,560 --> 01:37:01,240
Speaker 1: a sharper thinker on these issues. So I really appreciate

1832
01:37:01,280 --> 01:37:03,120
Speaker 1: your time, Tim, and I hope people will check out

1833
01:37:03,160 --> 01:37:09,519
Speaker 1: the book. Thank you Tim. Guys, Yeah, our pleasure man.

1834
01:37:09,600 --> 01:37:12,120
Speaker 1: Fantastic interview. Thank you guys so much for watching. We

1835
01:37:12,200 --> 01:37:15,040
Speaker 1: really appreciate it. Reminder, we got the premium show for

1836
01:37:15,120 --> 01:37:18,639
Speaker 1: everybody on Spotify. You can sign up at Breakingpoints dot com.

1837
01:37:18,880 --> 01:37:21,200
Speaker 1: I will be back in the studio, our beautiful, beautiful

1838
01:37:21,200 --> 01:37:23,800
Speaker 1: studio which we are working on as well, tomorrow, so

1839
01:37:23,840 --> 01:37:26,000
Speaker 1: I'm excited to do that, and it's a fun promotion

1840
01:37:26,080 --> 01:37:28,240
Speaker 1: to hear at Breaking Points. But we'll see everybody tomorrow.

1841
01:37:28,400 --> 01:37:29,200
Speaker 1: See you all tomorrow.