1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,520 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Daniel and Jorge from Daniel and Jorge 2 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: Explained the Universe. We interrupt this podcast for a special announcement. 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: This Friday March We're having our first ever Daniel and 4 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: Jorge Explained the Universe live stream event. So join us 5 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: as we record an episode in real time and take 6 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: questions from listeners like you. You can submit your questions 7 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: live on air, or send them to us ahead of 8 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: time at questions at Daniel and jorghead dot com. To 9 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: tune in, just go to YouTube dot com slash PhD 10 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: Comics this Friday March at ten am Pacific. That's one 11 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 1: pm Eastern, six pm Europe. That's two am in Tokyo 12 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: and four am in Australia. What time it's out of Mars, Daniel? 13 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 1: You know, in case aliens want to tune in? Do 14 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 1: you think aliens want to ask us questions? Um? May not, 15 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 1: you may they might have engineering questions. You know, well 16 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,160 Speaker 1: I got questions for them. So tune in this Friday, 17 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: March twenty seven at ten am Pacific at YouTube dot 18 00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:11,279 Speaker 1: com slash PhD Comics and bring your questions about the universe. Hey, Daniel, 19 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: what's your fondest memory? I have a lot of great 20 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: memories of finishing a wonderful book. Oh yeah, that's your 21 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: happy place, sitting down reading a sci fi novel. I 22 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: love reading a science fiction novel and being totally confused, 23 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: like what's going on? How does this make sense? And 24 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: then coming to the end of it and getting some 25 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: incredible idea to the author had to pull it all 26 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: together and deliver it to the reader. That's wonderful. Do 27 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: you remember the bad science fiction novels? Do you have 28 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: less than fond memories of sci fi novels. I don't 29 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: remember finishing bad science fiction novels, because I usually don't. 30 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: You often tossed them across the room and say, I'm 31 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: not reading that anymore. Really, you're not a completest. I 32 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: do not finish every novel I start. Now if I 33 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: get too fed up because the story doesn't make sense, 34 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: I'm just done with it. Well, do you ever wish 35 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: you could maybe go back in time, or at least 36 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: go back in your memories and wish that you hadn't 37 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: even started the book? I do. In fact, there was 38 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: one set of novels as a kid that I deliberately 39 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 1: never read the last page of because I didn't want 40 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 1: to finish it. I didn't want to be done with 41 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: it and have it in my past. These days, I 42 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: love seeing my kids read some of those books because 43 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: it's sort of like getting to re experience them. That's right. 44 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,799 Speaker 1: Kids are sort of a replay button. Yeah, except they're 45 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: guaranteed just remake all of our mistakes. Well, there might 46 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: be a universe, Daniel where that is possible. Hi. I'm 47 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: or hammy cartoonists and the creator of PhD comics. Hi. 48 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and avid science fiction reader, 49 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: and apparently I take science fiction personally. I've seen you 50 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: get worked up about interesting novels you read, and movels 51 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:01,959 Speaker 1: D like less. Yeah, well, you know, a good work 52 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: of art will make people get worked up, It'll evoke 53 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: reactions in them, it will make them think. And to me, 54 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: the wonderful thing about science fiction is that when it 55 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: makes me think about another science fiction universe and the 56 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: laws of physics there, the laws of physics here, How 57 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: does it all fit together? Well? I wonder if you're 58 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: sort of a science fiction writer's worst nightmare. You know, 59 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: a particle physicists trained physicist read trying to make sense 60 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: of a science fiction work. If it wasn't fiction, new 61 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: just be called the science book probably, And fortunately for 62 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: those authors, there are not a lot of us particle 63 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: physicists around, so we don't sway the market very much. Well, 64 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, 65 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio, a podcast in which 66 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: we usually explore the real universe and take you on 67 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: a tour of everything that's out there that's incredible, that's amazing, 68 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: peel back a layer of reality to show you how 69 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: things actually work. That's right. Does this part of a 70 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: genre called science reality or science nonfiction? Is that a 71 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: redundant word, reality nonfiction. It's podcast in which we do 72 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: try to sort of explore the universe and take you 73 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: to all the furthest reaches of the cosmos and all 74 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: the smallest places in uh, this place that we call home. 75 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: That's right, because we think that the intellectual questions of 76 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: the universe are questions for everybody. We think everybody wants 77 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 1: to know how the universe got started and what its 78 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: fate will be, in what it's made out of. So 79 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: normally our job is to take you there and explain 80 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: it to you. In a way that we hope educates 81 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: and entertains. Yeah, so it's a big universe, and actually 82 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 1: nobody really knows if this is the only universe or 83 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 1: if there are other universes out there. But there are 84 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: sort of people in this universe that create whole universes, 85 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: not just in their heads but also on the page. 86 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: And we are big fans of people who do this 87 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: sort of mental exploration, who wonder what kind of things 88 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: could happen in this universe, what other laws of physics 89 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: might there be. And I've long thought that science fiction 90 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: authors are sort of on the vanguard of intellectual exploration. 91 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: They're the ones out there wondering what we could build 92 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: in our universe and how the universe might be there front. 93 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: Really you put them at a little higher than scientists. 94 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely. You got experimentalists trying to discover stuff, 95 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: theorists trying to think about what experimentalists should discover, and 96 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: then science fiction authors thinking about the things that theorists 97 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: should be thinking about. I like Asimov to say Needson 98 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 1: to Daniel Whitson, Well, that's an illustrious group, but sure, 99 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: I'll take it now. I think that science fiction authors, 100 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: you know, they're not as constrained by reality like particle 101 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: theorists are. They just sort of think broadly and they 102 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:31,919 Speaker 1: get to consider their unchained They get to consider what 103 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,679 Speaker 1: other universes could look like and how things might work. 104 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: And not just that. They also write technology fiction. You know, 105 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: they think, in our universe, could we do this, could 106 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: we have tricorders, could we build teleporters? Could we travel 107 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: faster than light? It's a it's fascinating and important work. 108 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: They think of a stuff and it makes physicists and 109 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: it tickles the imagination of scientists and maybe that it's 110 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: burs ideas about what to explore or what kinds of 111 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 1: questions to ask right about this universe. Yeah, and it 112 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: gives real sciences, real ideas, and there are real examples 113 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: of people reading something in science fiction and then trying 114 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: to make it real. But there's a challenge there. You know, 115 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: when you are writing in another universe, you don't just 116 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 1: get to follow the rules of the universe. You know, 117 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: you have to make up the rules and then tell 118 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: a story in that universe. So you're sort of playing 119 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: both sides of the equation. And I think with that 120 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: comes some extra responsibility. Yeah, with great pros comes great responsibility, 121 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 1: isn't that what Spider Man said? Yeah, well, they are 122 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: sort of gods of that universe. You know, they get 123 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: to decide what the rules are and then they get 124 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 1: to tell the story you know, that follows those rules. Well, 125 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 1: we thought it would be interesting for our listeners to 126 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 1: talk to some sci fi authors here on the podcast, 127 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: and so we we we have this series now where 128 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: we talked to science fiction authors who are doing really 129 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: great and interesting work out there right now, that's right, 130 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: And we don't just talk to them about their book. 131 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: We are interested in how did they build that universe? 132 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: What laws of physics happen in their universe, and why 133 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 1: did they make those choices? Or if they are living 134 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: in our universe, do they think that the technology that 135 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 1: they're creating is real, is something that could actually happen. Yeah, 136 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: and so a little bit recently, we had an episode 137 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: where we talked Daniel talked to me and like you, 138 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: and we talked about the science in her science fiction book. 139 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: And so if you've heard of and like you and 140 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: are interested in her book, an Selary Justice, check it 141 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: out in our archive. But today we're talking to an 142 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: author that we've mentioned in this podcast before and that 143 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: Daniel has thrown a little shade at Maybe that's right. 144 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: I don't remember exactly what we were talking about, but 145 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: somehow Blake Crouch's book Dark Matter came up and I 146 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: made a not necessarily positive comment about the science in 147 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: that book. Yeah, because you were saying that the title 148 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: was called dark matter, but it didn't feature dark matter 149 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: in it. I kept waiting, where is the dark matter? 150 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: I kept waiting for it to show up. I think 151 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: it's ironic that a physicist would complain about the naming 152 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: of something not being accurate. But I digress. I'm hunting 153 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: for dark matter in real life, and so then I'm 154 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: reading a book about dark matter, and I'm like waiting, 155 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: I'm looking for the dark matter, and so I'm left unsatisfied. 156 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: To the end, I still have not found dark matter. 157 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: And it is dark matter? Actually dark Daniel? Is it really, Diana? 158 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: For sure? It doesn't admit anything. We are not aware 159 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: of any emissions from dark matter, either the book or 160 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: the actual kind of Does it matter, actually, Daniel, it 161 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: does matter. It is matter, and it does matter, And 162 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: I think it also matters to get the science right 163 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: in your book. I think go ahead and create a universe. 164 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: That's fine, but make sure the rules makes sense. Make 165 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: sure you follow those rules, or if you live in 166 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: our universe, get the rules right, you know, don't do 167 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: science miscommunication. Well may it sort of label as science fiction. 168 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:43,719 Speaker 1: So I don't think anyone sort of reads it and 169 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: thinks that it's necessarily real. A lot of people just 170 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: read it because it's fun and it's interesting to sort 171 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: of bend the rules, isn't it. Yeah, absolutely, And you're 172 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: free to create whatever universe you like and make up 173 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: whatever rules. But I think a story is only good 174 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: if you're following the rules. You know, if you're telling 175 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: a detective story and you're looking at the clues and 176 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: wondering who could have murdered Mr White in the library 177 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: or whatever, then you want there to be rules. Otherwise 178 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: you have no chance of figuring it out. And if 179 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: it comes in the end it was it was a 180 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: magic genie that appeared and disappeared, and so all the 181 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: clues are irrelevant. That's not really a very satisfying story. 182 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: So I like it when it follows the rules. Anyway, 183 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: said to be on the program, we'll be talking to 184 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 1: Blake Crouch and talking about the science in his book 185 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: called Recursion, and so to the on the program, we'll 186 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 1: be covering the science fiction universe of Blake Crouch's Recursion. 187 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: So there's a book you read recently, Daniel, I did. Yeah. 188 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: So after I mentioned Blake Crouch on air and invited 189 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: him to come on the program and defend his universe, 190 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: we reached down to Blake and said, hey, would you 191 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: come on the podcast and talk about the science fiction universes. 192 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: And it turns out he has a more recent book, 193 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: um than Dark Matter. It's called Recursion, and so I 194 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: read it and talked to him about it. Was he 195 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:00,319 Speaker 1: aware that you're sort of a peaky physicist's flooring, agreed 196 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: to talk talk with us on air. I thought about 197 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: this carefully. Um. I didn't want to antagonize him, or 198 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: attack him or insult him. So I made sure that 199 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:10,439 Speaker 1: he knew that I was not going to be throwing 200 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: him softball questions about what's it like to be a 201 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: famous writer, but instead that I was going to be 202 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: probing him kind of deeply about the science of his universe. Oh, 203 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: I see, so you gave him advance the questions kind 204 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: of or gave him a flavor for the questions. Yeah, 205 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: I didn't tell him the questions in advance because I 206 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:29,079 Speaker 1: wanted his sort of spontaneous reactions and thoughts to them. 207 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: But I did let him know that we would be 208 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: going a little bit deeper in the physics than maybe 209 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: his typical interview. Well, if you're interested, please check it out. 210 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: And then the name again is Blake Crouch and the 211 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: book is called Recursion, And so Daniel said, let's step 212 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: me through before we listen to the interview about what 213 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: this book is about and what is the basic idea 214 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,319 Speaker 1: of it. So Recursion is a really fun book to read. 215 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: It's sort of near future fiction. It takes place in 216 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: the universe you will find familiar. It's not some kind 217 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: of thing that takes place in a galaxy far far 218 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: away with crazy stuff happening. And a book starts out 219 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: where a scientist is working on memory. She's trying to 220 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 1: essentially find a technological solution to Alzheimer's. The idea is, 221 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: build some device that can map your brain and like 222 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: record your memories digitally somehow and then later reinject them. 223 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: Like let's say you and I have lunch and we 224 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: had a great time. Then you get Alzheimer's and you 225 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: forget it, and then later you want to remember that 226 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: lunch because it was so good, but it's faded from 227 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: your memory. Then in this book, they've developed machine that 228 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: will let you do that. You sit in a special chair, 229 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: it reimplants those memories and you can re experience them. Wait, 230 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 1: it reads your memories first, or do you have to 231 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: remember it and while you're remembering it sort of reads 232 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: those memories. Yeah, you call it up in your mind 233 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: and while you're remembering it, it stores it, and then 234 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: later you can come back and it will reinsert them. 235 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: And as I was reading this, I was thinking, Wow, 236 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: this is technically pretty Harry. I mean, we don't understand 237 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 1: the brain like at all. To interpret what's going on 238 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: inside of the brain with neurons firing and translate that 239 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: into digital code that you can then re upload, that 240 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: seemed pretty crazy to me. But you know, suspension of disbelief, 241 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: assume there's some technology they can do that. And he 242 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: did a good job of investigating like what kind of 243 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: technology you would need in order to probe the brain 244 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: and reimplant this stuff using like a scanner, and he 245 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: has like you know, magnets and all sorts of stuff 246 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 1: you would need to focus the energy and induce these spikes. 247 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: That is sort of how they do these neural prosthetics. 248 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,079 Speaker 1: I don't know if he knows, but I worked at 249 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: caltag on a new prosthetics lab, and that is sort 250 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: of how how they do it. They just kind of 251 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 1: record you moving your arm, for example, or or looking 252 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: sideways in different directions, and they just sort of record 253 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: the raw data and then you know, you don't have 254 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: to make sense of it, but you just sort of 255 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: take it in as raw and then you interpret that 256 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: and say that means right, that means left. That relies 257 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: on like understanding which part of the brain to record, 258 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: Like you could record the entire brain, and but then 259 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: you don't want to replay the entire brain. You want 260 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: to record the entire brain and somehow pull out the 261 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,080 Speaker 1: memory part of it and then reinject just that part it, 262 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: so that part. I don't really know if we could, 263 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: you know, interpret some random person's brain patterns to know 264 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: which part was the memory and which part was you know, 265 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: them breathing, and which part was them controlling other parts 266 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,719 Speaker 1: of their body. Isn't the brain pretty separated, like there 267 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: are memory parts, and there are breathing parts, So I 268 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 1: mean it's I'm just saying it's it doesn't seem technically impossible. No, 269 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: not technically impossible, like you know, maybe stretching the ability 270 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,439 Speaker 1: of what we could do. But you could imagine people 271 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: could figure that out. So that's cool, that's clever. So 272 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,079 Speaker 1: the idea is you sit in a chamber and it 273 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,079 Speaker 1: you think of it a memory, and it records it. Yes, 274 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: But then the book takes a big twist. And this 275 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: is a bit of a spoiler, but the book has 276 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 1: been out for a while, so I don't feel bad 277 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: spoiling it. But it turns out that when you reinsert 278 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 1: the memory, you go back and you say, oh, I 279 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: want to re experience that memory of having lunch with Daniel. 280 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: You're sit in a chair, you turn it on. You 281 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: don't just remember it. It actually takes you back to 282 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: those events. It like transforms the universe somehow. So you 283 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: are back at that lunch and so I need to 284 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,559 Speaker 1: sit back down in the same chair. It flashes and 285 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:07,079 Speaker 1: then and suddenly I'm transported to that time. Yes, transported, 286 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 1: teleported timeported memory ported something ported back into that memory. 287 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 1: That memory becomes real again. And not like virtual reality. 288 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: I'm experiencing it, but I'm not really there, but like 289 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: you are really there, you can order something different and 290 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: have a different future playout. Okay, so uh, I'm transported 291 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: through this memory machine to that time, and i still 292 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: have my memories that I've gained since. Like I'm wiser 293 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: and I'm replaying the moment, and I can do different things. 294 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: I can order something different for lunch. That's right, you 295 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: can decide, you know what. That didn't work out so well, 296 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: I had stomach cramps all afternoon, so I'm not going 297 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: to get the you know, Beef Tartar and the world 298 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: you left behind is sort of like, well, it's not gone. 299 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: It's weird because say you go back in time ten 300 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: years in his novel, you then have ten years to 301 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: live your life and do things differently. After ten years 302 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: have passed, when you come back to the moment that 303 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: you jumped from, then everybody else in that new universe, 304 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: that new sort of memory line that you're now in, 305 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: gets the memories from the old timeline and they suddenly 306 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: all remember them. Suddenly everyone remembers your new choices. Everybody 307 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: in the new timeline suddenly remembers all the old stuff 308 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: that they never actually experienced. Okay, you kind of just 309 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: lost me. Yeah, it's it's it gets complicated, so let's 310 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: keep let's go back for our lunch. So I went 311 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: back to lunch. I order something different, and then I 312 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: hung out in my office and not that I have 313 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 1: an office, but hu I hung out, and then it 314 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: was time for we reached the time where I sat 315 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: down on the machine originally. So then what happens. So 316 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: let's think about it from my point of view. I'm 317 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: having lunch with you in the new timeline. I'm not 318 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: aware that you've jumped back. It's just Daniel having lunch 319 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: with Jorge, and you're like, oh, I'm glad you didn't 320 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: eat my banana this time. Well, I don't know that 321 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: there is any other time. I'm new Daniel. Right, I'm Daniel, 322 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: and he's just glad I didn't eat your banana. No, 323 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: so new Daniel. It just lives his life. But then 324 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: we get to later that afternoon, the time when in 325 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: the original timeline you jumped back into the chair, and 326 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: when we crossed that moment, I get old original Daniels memories. 327 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: So I'm new Daniel in the new timeline. But then 328 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: I remember all this stuff which sort of like never 329 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: happened to me, but happened to a different Daniel. And 330 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: so suddenly you have two memories. Yes, you remember having 331 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: lunch with me one where I took your banana, and 332 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: you remember having lunch where I didn't take your banana. 333 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: That's right. How can I have two memories? It's confusing. 334 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: And one of the themes of the book is sort 335 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: of like memory makes you who you are, and if 336 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: you don't have your memory, or if your memory is 337 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: corrupted or manipulatable, then who are you really? And that's 338 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: a lot of the theme. And you know, there's elements 339 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: where characters go back in time and redo things so 340 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: they avoid tragedies or you know, don't make mistakes they 341 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: made the first time around, and it changes their lives. 342 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: And you know, it has all ripple all sorts of 343 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: ripples downstream and changes things. And it gets very complicated 344 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: because then there's multiple chairs and different people are jumping 345 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: back and forth and try to erase other people's memories 346 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: of the chair because they want to control the chair. 347 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 1: And it got pretty tangled pretty quickly. I have a 348 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: sheet of notes I kept trying to map the timeline 349 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: of this thing. It was crazy. Wow, it made you 350 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: you have to take notes. Oh yeah, I had to 351 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 1: take notes because I want to know, like, wait, is 352 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: this right? Is he just making this up? Like I 353 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: wanted to make sure we were following the rules. For me, 354 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: it's important, Like he set up some rules for this universe. 355 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: Whether the physics of it makes any sense at all, 356 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: we'll talk about it in a minute, But he set 357 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: up some rules from this universe, and I want to 358 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: know that the characters are constrained by those rules. You know, 359 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: like you won't actually know this at this moment, so 360 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: you don't know to jump back, or you can't erase 361 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 1: this other purpose person's memory of the chair because they 362 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: didn't know it yet or something. You know. You stok 363 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: a sci fi writer's nightmare to a new level, Daniel. 364 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: Now now they're all imagining physicists not just reading their books, 365 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: but like reading it and taking notes and taking us 366 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 1: or I am like the perfect reader drawing diagram. Yes, 367 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: this guy spent more than a year of his life 368 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 1: imagining this universe, taking characters through it really carefully, you know, 369 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: and I'm sure he prefers to people take his work seriously. 370 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 1: They don't just sort of like skim and go. I 371 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 1: don't really understand what's happening, but whatever, I'm sure it's fine. 372 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: You know, he probably wants people to deeply engage with it. No, 373 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,199 Speaker 1: maybe that's so sure. But now now it seems like 374 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: a question, Daniel. Let's get a little bit more into 375 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: the science in whether or not it makes sense, and 376 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: then we'll play the interview with Blake Crouch. But first 377 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: let's take a quick break. We're talking about Blake Crouch's 378 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,640 Speaker 1: book Recursion, in which you can sort of store your memories. 379 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,880 Speaker 1: When you replay them, you're reliving them. Yeah, you are 380 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 1: really there again. It's like time travel, but memory travel. 381 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: Sort of at first class, it sort of sounds like 382 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: we just jumped into fantasy. Um. But you know, maybe 383 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, you know, maybe there's something about that, like 384 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 1: what would make this possible? Like what if what if 385 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: we're all just in a simulation, Daniel, And so you know, 386 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 1: when you remember something, you're somehow skipping the software code 387 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: that we're you know, all based on, and somehow you 388 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: are sort of reliving it. Going into your memories is 389 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: like hacking the source code of the universe. Yeah, you somehow, 390 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: like you know, you cause some kind of oh recursion, 391 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: there you go, and it somehow breaks the code and 392 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: and somehow the code is not meant meant to handle that. 393 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:31,679 Speaker 1: I guess that requires like some flaw in the coding 394 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: of the universe. If the simulated universe is correctly coded 395 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 1: and accurately coded or well written, you shouldn't be able 396 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: to break out of it, shouldn't be able to break 397 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: those rules. That's sort of like a breaking of those rules, right, 398 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 1: But you're assuming it's well coded, you assuming it's well coded. Yeah, 399 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: I mean the universe side is a heck. Yeah, And 400 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: you know, that's an interesting, plausible idea, but it requires 401 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: basically breaking the rules of that universe, or revealing that 402 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: the universe is larger one with different rules. I guess 403 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: that wasn't in the book. He didn't say that the 404 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: world was a simulation. It wasn't in the book. Also, 405 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that would work because you have multiple 406 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: people with multiple memories, and each of them can change 407 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 1: the universe, and so it's more of a branching, right, 408 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: It's not that you can't have one consistent picture of 409 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: the universe. Anymore when multiple people can use their experiences 410 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:18,959 Speaker 1: to change the external reality. What if it's something like 411 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: the multiverse, you know, because in an infinite multiverse, there 412 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 1: are an infinite number of universes, and so there there 413 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: is a universe in which I sort of have the 414 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: memories of having gone back and you have the memories 415 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: of me having gone back. Yeah, that's plausible. There could 416 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 1: be a multiverse, of course, we don't know, and it 417 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: could be that multiverse contains other things that might have 418 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 1: happened in our universe. And so it's not that you're 419 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,120 Speaker 1: actually going back to your memory, but you're like jumping 420 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,479 Speaker 1: to another version of the universe that's a little bit different, 421 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: and that that's plausible. But you know, then the question 422 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: is like, well, how you getting there? And how is 423 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: it that remembering that somehow gets you to the right 424 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: location there? This is you need a connection somehow between 425 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: what's happening in your brain and what's happening in the 426 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: external reality. You know, normally, just thinking about something doesn't 427 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 1: change what's happening out there. Right, I can think there's 428 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: ice cream on my counter, I can really imagine. It 429 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: doesn't make ice cream appear on my counter at least 430 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: I've tried it a bunch of times and it's never worked. Hey, 431 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: you try it every day, all right. Well, it sounds 432 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 1: like a pretty interesting premise for a book, and you know, 433 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: just to kind of get you to think about memories, 434 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: and you know, I guess it's sort of a mix 435 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: of like a time travel story where you sort of 436 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: wonder what you would do differently and how you can 437 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 1: hack that and affect other people. But it maybe also 438 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,719 Speaker 1: has this layer of like thinking about your memories and 439 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: what makes you you, and you know what if someone 440 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: change your memory? Right? Yeah, And there's a lot of 441 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: nice things to say about this book, like it's really 442 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: fun to read, it's exhilarating. Blake Craft is really good 443 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 1: at writing fast paced, exciting stuff like I'm turning the pages, 444 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: I want to know what happens next, and there's not 445 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: a slow moment like this stuff happening. And I definitely 446 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: finished this book that was not going to be a 447 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 1: problem for me. And there and you're right, he's created 448 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: a universe where there are new rules and those tell 449 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: you different things about the characters. Right, what is it 450 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: like to have this option? Would you rather go back 451 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: and relive this stuff or just make the same mistakes. 452 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: Lots of really fascinating questions to answer there, So that 453 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 1: was really fun. But you know, I feel like there's 454 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 1: there's a layer of the science that would could have been, 455 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 1: you know, handled a little bit more deeply. Like, you know, 456 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: this question of can you really control your external reality 457 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 1: from your memories bothered me a little bit because you know, 458 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: if we all believe in one external reality, how do 459 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: we each individually control it? Right? There's a lot of 460 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: conflicts there, like can I change the reality but you 461 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 1: can also change the reality? Like how many realities are there? 462 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: Are we jumping into different multiverses or the same one? 463 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: That whole bit was kind of confusing to me. There's 464 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 1: sort of the question of whether we are all in 465 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 1: the same reality, right, Well, there is sort of a 466 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: deep philosophical question like I know that I'm in my 467 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: reality and I don't know if the external reality exists 468 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: at all. But from that point of view, you're all 469 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: just in my reality. And there's no way that if 470 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: you sit in a chair should somehow change where I 471 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 1: am and what I know and and what I am 472 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: what my experiences are. Right you sitting in a chair 473 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: and frying your brain in this machine shouldn't change the 474 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: universe for me, but in this book it sort of does. 475 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: I see. So it's more of a cause and effect 476 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: you were, you were thrown up by the cause and 477 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 1: effect that he that the rules in his universe seemed 478 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: to follow. Yeah, and it wasn't sure that it was 479 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: always that it always made sense, you know, like this 480 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: bit where the memories from the old universe can somehow 481 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: get transported into the new universe at a certain moment um. 482 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: But you know, that's fine. He made up some rules, 483 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 1: and I think he really did a good job of 484 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: trying to follow them and telling the stories that came 485 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: from that. All right, Well cool, Well you actually got 486 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: the chance to talk to Blake. You interviewed him over 487 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: the phone, right or over Skype? Yeah, I talked to 488 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: him over Skype and we had a really fun conversation 489 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: about the science of his universe and how he thought 490 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: about it and uh, and also about technical consulting with 491 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: a physicist that he talked to. Oh. Interesting, Yeah, he 492 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: talked to Cliff Johnson, who we both know. Yeah, and 493 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: you see, Yeah, so we're going to play the interview 494 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,679 Speaker 1: with you now, and so Daniel. What can we expect 495 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 1: from the interview? Was it a fun? It was a 496 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: lot of fun, and he was a great sport answering 497 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: you know, what you might consider grumpy questions about physics 498 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: from basically nobody. And you know, for those of you 499 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 1: who don't know, Blake Crouch is not just some random guys. 500 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: A New York Times bestselling author and so he doesn't 501 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 1: have to take his time and answer people's questions about 502 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: his work, but he was nice enough to do so. 503 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: So thank you, Blake very much for taking your time 504 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: to talk to me. Yeah, thank you. And so here's 505 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 1: the interview with Blake Crouch. Hello Blake, and welcome to 506 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: the program. Would you introduce yourself to our audience. I'm 507 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: Blake Crouch, a novelist and screenwriter. I wrote the trilogy 508 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: Wayward Pines and more recently Dark Matter and Recursion. Well, 509 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 1: thanks again for coming on the program. I've been looking 510 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: forward to talking to you. But before we dig into 511 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: your novel, I'd like to ask you a couple of 512 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: warm up questions to sort of get to know you 513 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: a little bit and how you think about science and 514 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: science fiction. So the first question is what technology that 515 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 1: you see in science fiction? Would you like to see 516 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: become real? And the stuff in my books is so disrupting, 517 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 1: and you know it might take your life if you 518 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: play around with it too much. I can't actually recommend those, 519 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: but I love like teleporters and things like that. I 520 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 1: really I would love someone also to finally like build 521 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: a tricorder from Star Trek. Like I happen to know. 522 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: One is actually being um contemplated right now and they're 523 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,239 Speaker 1: trying to kind of put it together. Obviously not on 524 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: the spectrum of of something in Star Trek, but something 525 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: that you could actually take out into the field and 526 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 1: immediately diagnose a variety of illnesses just by a scan. 527 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think that's uh. I think that'd 528 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: be pretty cool. On the topic of Star Trek, I 529 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: have a philosophy question for you. So where do you 530 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,880 Speaker 1: land on whether Star Trek transporters actually move you from 531 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 1: place to place or whether they disassemble you, kill you 532 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,439 Speaker 1: and create a clone somewhere else. Oh, I think they 533 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 1: kill you and create a clone somewhere else. Yeah, for sure, 534 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: And yet you still like to see them become reality. 535 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: Would you be willing to use a teleporter? I would, yeah, 536 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: absolutely to not have to engage in commercial airline travel 537 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 1: absolutely would be worth death. It would be worth death, Yeah, 538 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: and maybe worse. This is really fascinating stuff. But let's 539 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: take a quick break. We'll be right back with the 540 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 1: rest of Blake Crouch's interview. Let's talk about your book Recursion. 541 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: In my mind, the core concept of this novel, the 542 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,360 Speaker 1: idea that you built this story around, is this concept 543 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: of vividly reimagining a memory and then having the universe 544 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: actually take you there, like time traveling to the moment 545 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: the memory it was created. Is it a fair description 546 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,479 Speaker 1: and the core nugget of the story scientifically, it is. 547 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: It is the notion of you know, remembering something so 548 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: vividly and essentially just being transported back into this memory 549 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: by some quantum or time associated phenomenon that maybe we're 550 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: not sure of what it is. When I was working 551 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: on the back half of the book, I kind of 552 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: was trying to play around with notions of of what 553 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: it might be. And you know, there's some talk of wormholes, 554 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: especially tiny little wormholes, and getting sucked into other dimensions, 555 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: which is little portals into these old, old memories. Yeah, 556 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: that is the true Conceit I really don't think of 557 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 1: the book as a time travel novel. I think of 558 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: it very much as a memory travel. One of the 559 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: things I came away with just it wasn't even so 560 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,919 Speaker 1: much as from the research or anything that I that 561 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: I stumbled across. It was just more from living in 562 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: this space for several years where memory was such the focus. 563 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: I just started to think of of memory as being 564 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: in some ways maybe more fundamental than time. And we 565 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,199 Speaker 1: have these things like we have time, and and we 566 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 1: have matter, we have space, and we look at these 567 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: in sort of isolation, But I said, I try to 568 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: look at them as what is the underlying feature that 569 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 1: gives rise to it? In other words, like if we 570 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 1: think about consciousness, if you and I subscribe to like 571 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: what Max type Marks says were an infinite complexity gives 572 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 1: rise to consciousness. So what is the thing that is 573 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: getting giving rise to the to the e notion or 574 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 1: to the illusion of time. Memory seem to fit that 575 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: bill really really neatly. Then in your book you take 576 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: it one step further, because it's not just an exploration 577 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: of what you remember and who you are. It's a 578 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: journey into that memory literally physically transported into those moments. 579 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: What made you take that extra step? Did you start 580 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: from the story you wanted to tell and that's sort 581 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: of the science fiction that you needed, or did you 582 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,479 Speaker 1: start from what would happen if you could do this 583 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: cool science fiction thing and then find the story with recursion. 584 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: And with most of my books, they don't start with 585 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: the character. It doesn't start really with a setting. It 586 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: starts with this with the notion of a kind of 587 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: a very large concept. And when I had finished Dark 588 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: Matter and I was like, what I want to do 589 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: something else big? I started thinking, like, what is like? 590 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: What is like the most sort of fundamental element of 591 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: humanity and not just humanity but consciousness? And I just 592 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: kept coming back and back to the idea of memory, 593 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: because you take a lot of things away from us. 594 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: I mean, you take our bodies away, and I mean theoretically, 595 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: if we have some mechanisms upload us to the cloud, 596 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: we could still be us. You take a lot of 597 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: things away from us. But if you take away our memories, 598 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: you really start taking away identity, and you start taking 599 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: away the notion really of time itself. When I kind 600 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: of landed upon just the idea of memory as the 601 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: cential core of the novel. I knew that that's what 602 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: I wanted to do early on, I didn't know that 603 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: I have my characters actually returning to a memory and 604 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: sort of living their life forward again from that point. 605 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: That came a bit later. Because that's quite a leap, right. 606 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: It makes a lot of sense to imagine exploring your 607 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: memories and to think about how your memories to find 608 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: who you are, and you know that's quite rich and fascinating. 609 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: But then to say that your memory is reality and 610 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 1: they if you change your memory, you can change your 611 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: external reality. That's a big leap. So let me ask 612 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,239 Speaker 1: you if you believe in an external reality beyond like 613 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: your experience of it. In other words, would the universe 614 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 1: be here if we weren't here to experience it. Are 615 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: you saying that the universe is here because we observe it, 616 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: and without our observation that it doesn't exist. It seems 617 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: to me that your book is suggesting that, because it 618 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: makes this connection between memory and reality, if you change 619 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: your memory in your book, you actually change the external reality. 620 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: I guess I do believe that. I'm not sure I've 621 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: ever explicitly thought of it in those terms, But as 622 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: you say it. Yeah, that it lines up exactly with 623 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 1: sort of just the general theory and in worldview that 624 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: I put forward in both like dark matter and recursion. 625 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,959 Speaker 1: I mean, consciousness is so weird, unbelievably weird, the idea 626 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: that that it kind of our consciousness is the engine 627 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: behind giving life and breath to the universe. And if 628 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: you take us out of it, what does that look like? 629 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: Or if you take any sort of conscious entity out 630 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: of it, is doesn't still exist? Yeah? I mean that 631 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: that is what I'm basically writing about kind of over 632 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: and over again. It's fascinating and it's a question that's 633 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: deep and important, but also difficult to probe scientifically. I mean, 634 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: how do you do the experiment of a universe without observers? 635 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: You literally cannot observe that experiment. Once AI becomes truly 636 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: uh sentient, and we can start having a I almost 637 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: be a stand in for this, maybe we can start 638 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: to get around that. We can ask the AI philosophers 639 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: to chime in on that question. Yeah, or are we can? 640 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: Are we you know, there's some experiment you can use 641 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: where you know, once you have you know, I think 642 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: synthetic or digital consciousness is the same thing. I don't 643 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: think it's any less than bio consciousness. So maybe maybe 644 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: down the road we get some truly digital, uh sentient beings, 645 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: and there's some experiments to be had. This is the 646 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: concept that I had a bit of struggle with digesting 647 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: when I was reading the book, The idea that if 648 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: there's an external universe, how can me remembering something different 649 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: change that external universe? How can I influence the facts 650 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: out there? Just by thinking about things? It made me 651 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: wonder how do you think about the physics of it? 652 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: Do you try to limit yourself to the physics of 653 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: our universe in your book or did you think, hey, 654 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: there's a spectrum of different universes that might exist. This 655 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: could happen in some universe. Another way to ask this 656 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: is what are the laws of physics in or universe? Well, 657 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: I knew or suspected I was maybe infringing on some 658 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: of the laws of like creation and destruction of matter. Theoretically, 659 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: people could be going back into their memories as often 660 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: as they use this uh you know, the chair, and 661 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 1: then they're kind of creating a new universe at the 662 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: point in which they returned. So you know, it's described 663 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: in the book that sort of the universe that they 664 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: leave becomes this dead timeline. It's kind of great out 665 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: noir atmospheric thing that is sort of like, I don't 666 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: know how what you call it matter um in state, 667 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: in pure stasis. It's probably in a universe with the 668 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: laws of physics are a little different than ours because 669 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: I am technically creating kind of a lot of new 670 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,959 Speaker 1: matter each time, right, And so how deeply did you 671 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: think about the laws of physics of that universe and 672 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: try to apply them consistently or did you sort of 673 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: leave some of those details aside? Well, I thought about 674 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: it to a point. The whole notion of dark matter 675 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: dark matter not the book, but dark matter and dark energy. Um, 676 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 1: it's still so unknown and it's still so speculative. I 677 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: feel like it gives uh sci fi novelists like me 678 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: a little bit of cover to mess with what we 679 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: think of as the laws of phy six good point. 680 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,959 Speaker 1: I mean, like, what's the other nineties six percent or 681 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: whatever it is of unobservable matter that's out there? Are 682 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: Those are those other universes, other worlds, other dimensions wrapped 683 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: up in themselves, where you know, matters a fraction of 684 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,760 Speaker 1: of itself out here. I don't know. Well, that's certainly 685 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: a fair point. I think there's a lot we don't 686 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: know about this universe, and so a lot of questions 687 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: remain about what the laws of physics actually are and 688 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,719 Speaker 1: what they allow. Speaking of which I see in the 689 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 1: acknowledgments that you worked with cliff Johnson as a consultant. 690 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: I have great respect for him, of course as a colleague. 691 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: But tell me what was that like for you? Did 692 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 1: he shoot down a bunch of stuff or did he 693 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: give you ideas? What's it like to work with the 694 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: science consultant? He's so fantastic. He also did worked on 695 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: dark matter with me. So there's this thing called the 696 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: Science and Entertainment Exchange, and it puts people like me 697 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: and screenwriters and show owners in touch with people like 698 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: Clifford who it gives you a subject matter matter expert 699 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: who is a tune to working in the entertainment industry, 700 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: which means they're not coming in to just break down 701 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: what you've created, the trying to help you take in 702 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 1: the spirit of what you want to do and make 703 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 1: it as plausible as possible. So, yeah, with Recursion, I 704 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: finished my first draft without basically telling him at all 705 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 1: what was going on. And then we had a phone 706 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: call and I was like, here's kind of what's happening. 707 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:36,879 Speaker 1: I'd love to just send you the book and then 708 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: you hit me back with you know, anything that you 709 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: think you can improve on or that I'm completely off base. 710 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: And he helped me a lot with the technology behind 711 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: the memory retrieval process. And he also helped me a 712 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:54,959 Speaker 1: little skirts some of the speculation of of how someone 713 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,280 Speaker 1: might return to the memory, because there's some some talk 714 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 1: deep into the book about wormholes, black holes. Can't remember. 715 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: I think I took out white hole. I honestly don't 716 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 1: remember if that's there anymore. He gave some suggestions for 717 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: how to talk about it and much more plausible not 718 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: getting anyone's back up kind of ways. All right, so 719 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: he was okay with creating entire universes. Yes, all right, great, 720 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: well again, thank you Blake very much for your time 721 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,359 Speaker 1: and for coming on our podcast to answer our rather 722 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 1: nitpicky physics questions. It's been a pleasure, of course. All right, 723 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 1: pretty fun interview with Blake Crouch there, the author of Recursion, 724 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: which is a sci fi novel. And so Daniel, what 725 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 1: were what were some of you were taking aways from 726 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 1: talking to Blake. I thought he made a lot of 727 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 1: really good points. You know, he clearly thought about the 728 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 1: universe he was creating, and he thought about it sort 729 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,880 Speaker 1: of up to a point. He didn't worry about whether 730 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,800 Speaker 1: physicists today had an idea for how this might actually happened. 731 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 1: He was like, you know, here are the rules, and 732 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,799 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell the story. And I was also 733 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: impressed with it, with the point he made that, like, 734 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: we don't know much about what's going on in the universes. 735 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: We like to say on this podcast all the time 736 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 1: time there's a lot about the universe we don't know. 737 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 1: And so did he throw you off a little bit 738 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: when he said that, Were you like, oh, I have 739 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 1: to concede that point. And I was happy to concede that. 740 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: I love that point about the universe, that we don't 741 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 1: know what's going on. And as I said earlier, that's 742 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: one of the roles of science fiction authors to imagine 743 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 1: what else is in those gaps and and to be 744 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,239 Speaker 1: creative about it, to think outside the bounds of what 745 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 1: sort of academia is considering. And so absolutely that's wonderful. 746 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,720 Speaker 1: And I also really enjoyed hearing about his experience talking 747 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 1: to a cliff and what that's like to, you know, 748 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: try to incorporate the comments from a real working physicist 749 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: into your fiction universe. I wonder if a lot of 750 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 1: what what you take away from these sci fi novels 751 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: has to do with the language, Daniel, Like, I feel like, 752 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 1: you know, if it wasn't called science fiction, and maybe 753 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: it was called speculative fiction, and you know, maybe it 754 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,359 Speaker 1: didn't use some of the same words that you use 755 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,400 Speaker 1: in your work in real science, you would, maybe, you know, 756 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: enjoy this book a little bit more and just be 757 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 1: more opening your disbelief in and just going alone for 758 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 1: the right I can't tell if that's a question or 759 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 1: a suggestion, but you know, I also like fantasy novels, 760 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 1: and the ones I like the most are the ones 761 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 1: where they think careful about what the rules are, you know, 762 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 1: like Robert Jordan's his world. He has magic and that 763 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 1: magic follows rules, which means like you can cast a 764 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: spell in these moments, but you can't in those other moments. Okay, 765 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 1: I think I'm getting more of a sense here, Daniel. 766 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: It's all about the rules for you. Well, look, I'm 767 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: a physicist. My entire goal in life is to figure 768 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 1: out what are the rules of the universe, because it's 769 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 1: those rules that constrain our lives. Why can't I go 770 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 1: to Alpha Centauri right now because there's a rule against that, 771 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,840 Speaker 1: Otherwise I would totally be there. So it's all about 772 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 1: bumping up against the rules and figuring out how they 773 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:44,959 Speaker 1: constrain the stories we tell and the lives we live. 774 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: So if we find out that the universe doesn't have 775 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 1: consistent rules, Daniel, are we gonna be critiquing in on 776 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: our podcast as well? Yeah? Right, I'm going to talk 777 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 1: to the creator of the universe and given my notes 778 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,240 Speaker 1: or her my notes or podcast, Daniel talks to God. 779 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: That's selling author of the universe, Daniel and the other universe, 780 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:11,760 Speaker 1: the universe without Daniel, after God deletes me from making comments. God, 781 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: Why isn't the universe hard science fiction? Anyway? To wrap 782 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,800 Speaker 1: up about Blake, CRUSH's Recursion is a totally fun book 783 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: if you're really interested in sort of like fast moving 784 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 1: stories with cool technology that take place in other universes. 785 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: I really recommended I wouldn't consider it like the hardest 786 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: of science fiction. It's not like Alistair Reynolds. That really 787 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 1: delves deeply into the physics underlying the story. But he 788 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,440 Speaker 1: did a good job of making it consistent and telling 789 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 1: a fun story sort of within that universe. But thank 790 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 1: you to Blake Crush for coming on the program. And 791 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: it's great to hear from him and learn from him. 792 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,880 Speaker 1: And it's great to think about the ideas in his 793 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 1: book but memory and about time travel. Yeah, so it's 794 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:52,839 Speaker 1: a lot of fun. Thank you very much, Blake. All Right, 795 00:39:52,880 --> 00:40:02,760 Speaker 1: we hope you enjoyed that. See you next time. Before 796 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,799 Speaker 1: you still have a question after listening to all these explanations, 797 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,840 Speaker 1: please drop us a line. We'd love to hear from you. 798 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 1: You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at 799 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 1: Daniel and Jorge that's one word, or email us at 800 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 1: Feedback at Daniel and Jorge dot com. Thanks for listening, 801 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,840 Speaker 1: and remember that Daniel and Jorge explained. The Universe is 802 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,399 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcast from 803 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio Apple Podcasts 804 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Yeah,