1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We're on vacation, but we still have 4 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: an amazing show for you. Today. Futurist Martin Ford stop 5 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: Spy to talk about the updated version of his new book, 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: Rise of the Robots, Technology and the threat of a 7 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 1: job bless future. But first we'll talk to Liberal Currents 8 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: own Adam Burry about how democrats can fix our broken government. Welcome, Welcome, Adam, 9 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:34,919 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. So you're the publisher and 10 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: co founder of Liberal Currents. Liberal Currens is a magazine 11 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: that is sort of a thought magazine. I think of 12 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: it as you. Guys have set out to publish something 13 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: called the Reconstruction Papers, So explain to us what that is. 14 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 2: Yes, So, a lot of the Trump era is characterized 15 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 2: by what we're against. We are against destroying the government, 16 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 2: we are against deporting twenty million people, we're against ending democracy. 17 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,319 Speaker 2: We want a vision for what we're going to do 18 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 2: after the victory, you know, I mean, obviously victory can't 19 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 2: be assumed that we have to fight for it to 20 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 2: keeping against the things that are happening, but what we 21 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 2: need some vision for the future, and I think vision 22 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 2: was lacking not just in the Trump era, but we're 23 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 2: really in the decades before that as well. So the 24 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 2: Reconstruction papers, being the first essay by Nicholas Grossman, is 25 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 2: very much a how do we get out of this 26 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 2: crisis in the short term, But the rest of them 27 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 2: are very focused on how do we fix higher education? 28 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 2: What's the right trade policy? Actually that's not neoliberal or 29 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 2: this kind of like vulgar tariff's situation. You know, what 30 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 2: do we actually do with America's military now that the 31 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 2: Cold War is over, now that we're sort of no 32 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 2: longer the sole power in the world, it's getting more 33 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 2: of a multilateral world. A lot of big questions like 34 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 2: that for thinking about the long term. 35 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of people think that part of the 36 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: problem with the sort of four years between trump On 37 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: and trump Too was that there was not enough ambitious 38 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: legislation to curb corruption, make things illegal. So talk us 39 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: to sort of what are the tenets of this reconstruction. 40 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard to summarize because it's a fairly broad 41 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 2: set of areas. A few of the core pillars, I 42 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 2: would say are fixing Congress specifically, because a lot of 43 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 2: the overall problems are downstream of Congress's dysfunction. So, you know, 44 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 2: there's a lot of different essays that sort of rest 45 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 2: on that. Some of them go to specifically. So like 46 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 2: Kevin Elliott is a political theorist. He writes about what 47 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 2: can we do about the Senate and offers a lot 48 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 2: of creative ideas there. Others it's more connected. So our 49 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 2: essay on military policy talks about regrounding military actions in 50 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 2: congressional authorization and oversight, including you know, congressional authorization of 51 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 2: military action, but also just regular reauthorizations of what the 52 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 2: military is having. Congress legislative really more actively involved in 53 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 2: shaping military. A lot of it does come down to 54 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 2: just fixate what has been broken in Congress and recentering 55 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 2: it in our system. But that includes, for example, getting 56 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 2: the Supreme Court out of the way of a lot 57 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 2: of things. Nick's essay expanding the Court is in there. 58 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:12,839 Speaker 2: Other essays sort of make passing reference to what could 59 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 2: be done other than just that. You know, I mentioned 60 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,519 Speaker 2: in my essay the Widen plan from a few years 61 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 2: ago from Senator Widen about just having fixed appointments every 62 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 2: presidential term and things like that. It almost doesn't matter 63 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 2: what as long as Congress actually steps in and makes 64 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 2: the court sort of humbles it a little bit in 65 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 2: some way. Those are big parts of it, but the 66 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 2: overall is just we've been stuck with a lot of 67 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 2: sick institutions for a long time, so essentially since the 68 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 2: Cold War and really longer. There are a lot of 69 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 2: arrangements that were made in an earlier era that were 70 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 2: really historical achievements then, like our system of higher education 71 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 2: incredible global historical achievement, our system of public funding of science, same, 72 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 2: even our approach to trade in the post war world 73 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 2: before Nixon was incredibly functional. But now a lot of 74 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 2: those things have either been destroyed over time, like the 75 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 2: trade example, or they've just kind of gotten decrepit in bed, 76 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 2: you know, my entire lifetime. Essentially, tuitions have exploded in costs. 77 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 2: But that wasn't really a problem before that, right, that 78 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 2: was a relatively relatively historically recent problem. So the whole 79 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 2: idea is a lot was already broken before Trump. Trump 80 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 2: came in and has sort of taken a hammer to 81 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 2: a lot of what was already weak, and so what 82 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 2: we should not do is return to where we were 83 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 2: before Trump. We need to actually think now that we 84 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 2: have to pick up the pieces, what can we build 85 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 2: that will be better than what we had across a 86 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 2: lot of areas. 87 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: So the Supreme Court strikes me as a real funcking problem. 88 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: We have a six to a very conservative three recent justices, 89 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: two who are pretty much rubber shams for Trump, one 90 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: who killed the Voting Rights Act, which was his legacy. 91 00:04:58,000 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: So what's the solve for that? 92 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 2: Honestly, we don't even spend that much time with it because, 93 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 2: in my opinion, the particulars aren't as important, and also 94 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 2: they mostly understood, like this is one of those things 95 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 2: where there doesn't need to be an intervention in the 96 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 2: public debate because when you already have like Senator Widen, 97 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 2: putting forward ideas that would work, there are already people 98 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 2: that are in the right place. Once they have the 99 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 2: will and the majorities to actually do it, I think 100 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 2: we will get it. But you do need to do it, 101 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 2: and whether it's a one time expansion or a more 102 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 2: permanent arrangement or both, which I would prefer both. Frankly, 103 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 2: at this stage, we need to nullify the people that 104 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 2: have clearly shown themselves to be bad actors immediately, but 105 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 2: then we have to put something in place so that 106 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 2: we won't be back here again in four to eight years. 107 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: When you look at this moment in American history, what 108 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: do you think the most important thing is. Like you've 109 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: spent all this time editing these essays, writing these essays 110 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: about the idea, what do you think the most important 111 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 1: reform is. 112 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 2: I think it's just making the actual democratic component of 113 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 2: our system overall, both federal and state level, more functional. 114 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 2: Right now, the federal government is a mess. Congress, as 115 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 2: I said, is a mess. The less democratic components of 116 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 2: it sort of make up for it by being more 117 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 2: active parts. And then at the state level, often the 118 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 2: state legislators are pretty powerful, but they use that power 119 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 2: to make themselves less democratic more often than not. So 120 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 2: just approaching both of those centering legislatures more at the 121 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 2: expense of even separately elected executives, but also executive bodies 122 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 2: that are not elected, judges that are not elected. To me, 123 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 2: that's a big part of it, and we've seen it 124 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 2: in this past year and a half play out in 125 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 2: like the gerrymandering wars, for example, just completely no holds barred, 126 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 2: which as you say, like part of that is the 127 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 2: Supreme Court has been slowly chipping away or not so 128 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 2: slowly at the arrangement that we came to in the 129 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 2: last forty fifty years to avoid that kind of escalation. 130 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: When you look at it, is this a legislative problem, 131 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: is this voting rights problem? Like what are this sort 132 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: of avenues? 133 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 2: My essay is about fixing the federalist system specifically, and 134 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 2: there's two components of that that are maybe a little 135 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 2: less relevant to what you're asking that I'll set aside 136 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 2: for a moment, But those are strengthening state governments at 137 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 2: the expense of local ones and doing fiscal federalism a 138 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 2: little better. But the key pillar to all of it 139 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 2: is in the Constitution, we're supposed to guarantee the republican 140 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 2: form of government at the state level. Right now, we 141 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: very obviously don't we actually get outright competitive authoritarianism in 142 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 2: my opinion in several states, and the voting rights was 143 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 2: aimed at avoiding resting on Fifteenth Amendment than the guarantee clause. 144 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 2: But in my opinion, a democratic trifecta in twenty twenty 145 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 2: nine should pass the legislation specifying what rate of arrangements 146 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 2: count as the Republican form of government, it should be 147 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: extremely prescriptive, and that minimum should mean that at least 148 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 2: one of the legislative chambers at the state level is 149 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 2: proportionally allocated instead of the plurality winner one seat what 150 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 2: district approach that we have now, So just making it 151 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 2: so that jerrymandering is impossible to control any level of 152 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 2: government is a big one in my opinion. 153 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: Do you think that there should be like a constitutional 154 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: convention or do you think that's just a waste of time. 155 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 2: Well, it's not that I think it's a waste of time. 156 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 2: I just wonder what would come out of that. But 157 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 2: of course if you say that, one could say what's 158 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 2: going to come out of Congress and the presidency of 159 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 2: the trifecta. I think that we could change our constitution 160 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 2: like we certainly should want. What are the essays is 161 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 2: about trying to fix just the amendment process itself, for example, 162 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 2: and it argues that if you can't do it through 163 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 2: the existing amendment process, you should explore other avenues, and 164 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 2: that again Congress can be a tool of legitimizing what 165 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 2: you do, So you could have a convention that comes 166 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 2: up with a new amendment process, specifically that sends that 167 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 2: to Congress to approve of a referendum as well to ratify, 168 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 2: just to give it legitimacy. Do you think, I mean 169 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 2: the Senate. So on the Senate you can do a 170 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 2: lot of things. I do think that like serious change 171 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 2: to the Senate in terms of what we dislike about 172 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 2: it the most. It's on democratic composition is difficult without 173 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 2: an amendment. The other things you can do. But I 174 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 2: think mostly my attitude is there's a lot more you 175 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 2: can do with a trifecta that is willing to do 176 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 2: it than people realize, and we should focus on what 177 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 2: that is because that's that's already very hard, right, That's 178 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,599 Speaker 2: our like getting getting the three, the two chambers and 179 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 2: the President to agree on actually drastic reform as we 180 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 2: saw it with Biden again. You know, they can't even 181 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 2: agree to extend the child tax credence. It is hard. 182 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 2: I think we are probably going to see a window 183 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 2: of opportunity here because the second Trump term is so 184 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 2: much worse than the first. 185 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: But it's not going to be a huge window. 186 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 2: Well exactly, they have to move quickly and they have 187 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 2: to be willing to be bold. So, but I think 188 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 2: it's not likely likely, but it's more likely we can 189 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 2: get a tri effecta than an actual constitutional level change. 190 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 2: And if you can get a trifecta, there's quite a 191 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 2: lot you can do. 192 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: Part of the problem with what happened last time is 193 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: that Biden was really the MO person for a number 194 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: of reasons. But he's really, you know, the wrong person. 195 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: So if you're looking and that, it does not to 196 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: say that he didn't. He's not a nice guy. A 197 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: lot of people like he just was the wrong person 198 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: for this. He's the wrong generation. So what do you 199 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: think when you're looking for someone who is both electable 200 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: and we are a little more lefty. The truth is 201 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,319 Speaker 1: this person is going to have to win. Would like 202 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: to get someone who could win in an Iowa or 203 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: who could win in a mean too or you know, 204 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: the parts of the country that aren't going to elect Montami, 205 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: who I actually think has done an incredible job. But 206 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 1: the sweet spot here is getting someone who reads as centrist, 207 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: but who is willing to make the kind of changes 208 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: that need to happen in order to secure and safeguard 209 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: our democracy. 210 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, no, absolutely, that matters a lot for the president. 211 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: But I think it matters even more for the people 212 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 2: that come into Congress on the Democratic side over this 213 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 2: year and then in twenty twenty eight, because at the 214 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 2: end of the day, when it comes to legislation, if 215 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 2: you get Democratic caucuses in both chambers that are willing 216 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 2: to do things, I think even Biden would have gone 217 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 2: along with it. Frankly so, but because the thing about 218 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 2: Biden more than anything was he was very much a 219 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 2: creature of the party. The reason that he was willing 220 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 2: to step down at all. Like Trump would never have 221 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 2: stepped down right. He never would even when he lost 222 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 2: the election. He wouldn't do it right. And there's probably 223 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 2: a lot of people in the Democratic Party who wouldn't either, 224 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 2: But Biden did because he actually listened to party insiders. 225 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 2: If the party has moved far enough in a certain direction, 226 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 2: then even that Joe Biden like figures will go along 227 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 2: with it, even if they're not necessarily leading it. Now 228 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 2: obviously we want people who will lead it, not just 229 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 2: go along with it. There's some middle ground there, essentially, 230 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 2: like the person doesn't need to be radical. Also, frankly, 231 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 2: a lot of the things we're talking about aren't necessarily 232 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 2: necessarily politically lefty right, Like if we're talking about democracy reforum, 233 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 2: it could be couched in terms that are not about 234 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 2: being a socialist or something, right, it's just about going 235 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 2: back to civil rights era victories. It's you know, it's 236 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 2: about a lot of things that they could be couching. 237 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 2: Very patriotic, very pro America, affirming our history kind of language. 238 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 2: You know, I'm not a politician. I couldn't I couldn't 239 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 2: win office, So I feel alway feel a little uncomfortable 240 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 2: like advising anyone on that kind of thing, But I 241 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 2: do think so. For example, the trade program we're looking at, 242 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,719 Speaker 2: it's very technocratic in its details, but at a high 243 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 2: level it's just saying, you know, free but balanced trade essentially, 244 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 2: like it's rhetoric that's been around for a long time, 245 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 2: and essentially saying tariffs didn't really work, like Trump did 246 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 2: a ton of tariffs and our deficit actually went up 247 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 2: rather than down, China curplus actually went up rather than down. 248 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 2: So you know, we have we have people that know 249 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 2: how to manage this more effectively, and they will, you know. 250 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 2: So it's never easy to sell that kind of thing, 251 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 2: but I think it can be done. 252 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:47,719 Speaker 1: It sounds like one of the things you're saying is 253 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: that you need to have leadership in both the Senate 254 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: and the House that are young enough to be And 255 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't even know if it's a question 256 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: of young like, but let's just talk about right now, 257 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:05,319 Speaker 1: Schumer would be the leader of the Senate and if 258 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 1: again it's not guaranteed by any search the imagination, and 259 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: there's certainly a scenario where Democrats do not flip the 260 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: Senate because the map is so bad, but say they do, 261 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: what we're going to see probably is that Democrats are 262 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: going to think Schumer had something to do with the 263 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: flipping of the Senate, and then as his ruar, he's 264 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:27,839 Speaker 1: going to be able to stay on as the head 265 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 1: of the Senate. 266 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, you probably, Frankly, you 267 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 2: probably have a better view into this than I do. 268 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 2: My sense is that even if he wins, they're not 269 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: very happy with him. I don't know that he sticks 270 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 2: around even if they get the majority back. I hope not, Frankly, Honestly, like, 271 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 2: I have a lot of problems with Jeffreys, but he 272 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 2: is young, and he actually is someone who is kind 273 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 2: of like I describe Biden in that if he gets 274 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,319 Speaker 2: a House caucus that is very aggressive, which frankly a 275 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 2: House caucus tends to be more, he will go along 276 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 2: with them. He will absolutely just do what his caucus wants, 277 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 2: where Schumer clearly has his own positions on things and 278 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 2: just won't he'll vote against his own caucus as the 279 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 2: chapeer leader. I am cautiously optimistic that we're going to 280 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:06,079 Speaker 2: get someone else. I don't know if it'll be the 281 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 2: right person, but certainly isn't. 282 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think it's also just a question 283 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: of being able to get the reforms put in place 284 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: so that you can have a kind of protection of 285 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: these things that used to be norms but now need 286 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: to be laws. If you had one action item in 287 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: your mind of like something that needs to happen immediately, 288 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: like I mean, I'll tell you mine and then you 289 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: can tell me yours. So mine would be that there 290 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: needs to be some caveat to the Supreme Court Trump 291 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: versus United States, that you cannot have a president who 292 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: is a king. That would be my number one thing 293 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: is that we cannot have someone in the presidency who 294 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: is not worried that if he sends Sealed Team six 295 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: after his opponents that he will not face any kind 296 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: of prosecution. What would your. 297 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 2: Thak, It's sort of related, but yeah, I would put 298 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 2: these people in jail whatever that takes, and that probably 299 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 2: does mean having to do the Supreme Court first for 300 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 2: precisely the years that you're saying. And I think we 301 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 2: should appoint people who have an interpretation of the pardon 302 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 2: clause that essentially says it was never intended to apply 303 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 2: to the President himself or those who worked under it 304 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 2: were doing work on his behalf. So I think I 305 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 2: would go beyond I guess not having immunity, I would 306 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 2: even say constitutionally ambiguous part and power in terms of 307 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 2: what its limits are. We're going to appoint judges that 308 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 2: have a very strong interpretation in the negative of who 309 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 2: it can apply to, and then prosecute everyone involved in 310 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 2: all this stuff. One of the things that we can 311 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 2: do starting next year, once we have at least one 312 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: Chamber of Congress, is Congress can start building the case 313 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 2: that a twenty twenty nine DOJ could use to prosecute 314 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 2: using committee investigative work in subpoenas and things they obviously 315 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 2: should have done a Day one in twenty two one, 316 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 2: but now I think we shouldn't even wait until day one. 317 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 2: So much good journalism work has already been done. Doesn't 318 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 2: already documented that are incredibly illegal. We just need to 319 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 2: formalize that a botty right concerence to be able to 320 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 2: hand over to the DFJ when the time is read. 321 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point, Adam, Thank you, thank you, 322 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: thank you for joining us. 323 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 2: Thank you as well. 324 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: Martin Ford is the author of the Rise of the Robots, 325 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: Technology and the Threat of a Jobless Future. Welcome, Welcome Martin. 326 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me your book. 327 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: And it's so good because it's like absolutely where all 328 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: of us are right now. Rise of the Robots, Technology 329 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: and the Threat of a Jobless Future. Is it based 330 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: on your Ted talk or is it Does it have 331 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: some connection to your Ted Talk? 332 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 4: Well, the book came first, so the Ted talk is 333 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 4: more based on the book, right. I actually started writing 334 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 4: about this in two thousand and nine, you know, seventeen 335 00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 4: years ago. So I've always felt that it's inevitable that 336 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 4: someday machines are going to displace most workers, and that's 337 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 4: something that we really have to take seriously and begin 338 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 4: to prepare for in terms of our economy and our society. 339 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: So you think that machines are going to replace workers? 340 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 3: I think so, yeah. 341 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 4: I mean, obviously there's a debate about that right now, 342 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 4: right at this moment in time. The economists have looked 343 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,360 Speaker 4: at it, and there's not clear evidence it's happening now. 344 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 3: But that's not what I'm saying. 345 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 4: I'm saying that it's inevitable and certainly given the progress 346 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 4: we've seen over the past, over the past few years, 347 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 4: I mean, I think we should be looking very seriously 348 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 4: about this and thinking seriously about it. 349 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 1: I mean, why do you think that? 350 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 4: Because eventually machines are going to reach the point where 351 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 4: they match the typical worker in terms of capability, Right, 352 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 4: we're going to have true artificial intelligence. The top people 353 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 4: in the field, people like Demis Hasabis, right, who's a 354 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 4: very grounded guy, not an extremist, thinks that AGI or 355 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 4: human level intelligence could arrive around twenty thirty, which is 356 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 4: only what is that three and a half years, I 357 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 4: mean it's not very long now. Human level means human level, right, 358 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 4: That means an artificial intelligence that can do anything basically 359 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 4: that a person can do, which is a lot different from. 360 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 3: What we currently have. 361 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,479 Speaker 4: There are many, many limitations even to the best models today. 362 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 4: But when we get to the point where AI can 363 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 4: do virtually anything at least that a white collar can do, 364 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 4: then I think it's inevitable that we're really going to 365 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 4: be in to see some serious displacement. So we need 366 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 4: to think about what that means for our economy and 367 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 4: our society and how can we adapt to that. 368 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:34,360 Speaker 1: I know that your series is broader than just being 369 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,640 Speaker 1: about AI, but the discourse about AI, it's like this 370 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: idea that AI is getting better and better and better. 371 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 1: But at this moment, you know, there are certainly things 372 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: that does that it didn't do before, but it's ruined 373 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 1: Google search, and it's you know, summarize things that I 374 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: didn't think needed to be summarized. But you know, a 375 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: lot of the capability that people talk about I haven't 376 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: actually seen, right, And that's the whole point. 377 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 4: At this moment in time, You're right, we haven't seen 378 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 4: this these dramatic changes, but it is progressing very rapidly, 379 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 4: and I don't pretend to know exactly when we'll get 380 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 4: to the point where where there is a big disruption. 381 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 4: I just believe it's really inevitable. And you know, there's 382 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 4: really only one really important question about all of this, 383 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 4: and that is is AI going to forever be a 384 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 4: tool that we use? Is it going to be something 385 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 4: that complements our work, something that augments or or amplifies 386 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 4: our work and makes this more efficient, which is certainly 387 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 4: the case now, or at some point in the future, 388 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 4: is it going to kind of reach a tipping point 389 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 4: where it really becomes a substitute rather than a tool 390 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 4: that we use that simply replaces us. And I think 391 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 4: it's inevitable we will reach that point, and it could 392 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 4: be you know, a few years, maybe it will be longer, 393 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 4: maybe it'll be ten twenty years. I can't say that 394 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 4: for certain but certainly, you know, based on what the 395 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 4: top people in the fielder are saying, is possible that 396 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 4: that could be only a few years away. 397 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 3: So I do think we need to take it very seriously. 398 00:19:57,960 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: So what would that even look like. 399 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 4: It would look like, you know, artificial intelligence that can 400 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 4: basically do what any white collar worker can do, so 401 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 4: you know, even the most skilled, knowledgeable people, and eventually 402 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 4: would be able to do it much more affordably. Right, 403 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:13,959 Speaker 4: initially it might be very expensive, but within a year 404 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,360 Speaker 4: or two, of course, the cost will fall, so we'll 405 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 4: move toward using that pretty aggressively. 406 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: Right now, I understand what this scenario is, But tell 407 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: me what it would mean to decide that robots were 408 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: going to replace people and then try to I mean, 409 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: does it mean trying to stop it? What does it mean? 410 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 4: No, I don't advocate stopping it, because this is you know, 411 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 4: progress and technology, and it's going to bring enormous benefits 412 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 4: to all of us. 413 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:40,360 Speaker 3: Right. 414 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 4: You know, people are already talking about curing cancer and 415 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,919 Speaker 4: inventing new drugs and all kinds of scientific progresses as 416 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 4: a result of this. 417 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 3: But we will need to reform our economy. 418 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 4: If jobs are going to disappear, then people obviously need 419 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 4: another source of income. And it's important to say they 420 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 4: need that source of income not just to survive, right 421 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 4: and not be living on the street, but they need 422 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 4: that source of income in order to have money to 423 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 4: spend to drive the economy. Consumer demand essentially drives the 424 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 4: whole economy. So if we begin to lose especially our 425 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 4: best workers, which you know, white collar workers are generally 426 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 4: highly paid, they're. 427 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 3: The people that do the most spending. In the US. 428 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:24,159 Speaker 4: Today, fifty percent of all consumer spending comes from the 429 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 4: top ten percent of households, that's households earning over two 430 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 4: hundred and fifty thousand dollars. And a lot of those people, 431 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 4: of course, are white collar workers. So if we see 432 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 4: to be a big impact there, it's going to be 433 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 4: I think a very dramatic impact on the whole economy 434 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 4: could easily I think, tip us into a deep recession 435 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 4: if enough people become fearful and start cutting back. So 436 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 4: these are all problems we need to think ahead about, 437 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:48,880 Speaker 4: and we need to have a strategy. You know, I've 438 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 4: advocated something like a universal basic income would do one 439 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 4: potential solution to help make sure that people still have 440 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 4: an income after this unfolds. 441 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: Basically, either I'm told that AI is at best replaces 442 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 1: everyone's jobs and at worst it destroys the world and 443 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: kills us all. Right, I mean that's if you listen 444 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: to Sam Allman. You know, everything about AI is a 445 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 1: warning that it's going to kill us all, or that 446 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 1: it's so powerful that we're all And maybe I'm just dumb, 447 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 1: but like, first of all, if it is going to 448 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: kill us all, maybe they should stop doing it. And 449 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: if it's going to replace us all, maybe they should 450 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: stop doing it, And why is any of this inevitable? 451 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 4: Well, you know, those are the risks and they all 452 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 4: need to be taken seriously for sure. But I don't 453 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 4: think AI is going to kill us all. 454 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 3: I don't. I'm not a dumer in that sense. 455 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 4: I mean, we definitely need smart people thinking about how 456 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 4: to control this technology. 457 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 3: Is it gets more powerful. 458 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: But if we think about the Republicans and Democrats in 459 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 1: the Senate and in Congress, that crew has never regulated 460 00:22:55,480 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: anything Facebook, Instagram like nothing, So going to regulate AI, 461 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: no way. They don't even understand what AI is. So 462 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 1: you get this really powerful technology that is going to 463 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: a best right, this is the best case scenario. Is 464 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: it puts everyone out of business, Right that people who 465 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 1: make a lot of money, white collar people with white 466 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: collar jobs lose their jobs. That's the best case scenario. 467 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: Like why do it? 468 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 4: Well, that's not the best case scenario. The best case 469 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 4: scenario is that we cure cancer. We have all of 470 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 4: this amazing progress. We find solutions to climate change, right, 471 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 4: we invent new energy sources. We do have a much 472 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 4: more abundant, you know, positive future. We do things that 473 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 4: never before would have been capable. Right, So I understand. 474 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 4: You know, many people are fearful of the risks, and 475 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 4: that's the reason I think that we shouldn't be complacent. 476 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 3: Right we need we need to. 477 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 4: Be honest with what's possible with this technology and move 478 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 4: to adapt to that so that we can we can 479 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 4: adapt to the downsides of artificial intelligence and at the 480 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,919 Speaker 4: same time time really embrace it and move forward. You know, realistically, 481 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 4: I don't think we can really stop it anyway. I mean, 482 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 4: it's we've gotten now four or five companies that are 483 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 4: competing intensively. Of course is also happening at China. We 484 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 4: can't regulate you know, artificial intelligence in China. So I 485 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 4: think kind of the toothpaste is out of the tube 486 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,959 Speaker 4: at this point, and you know, dreaming that we can 487 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 4: somehow stop it or go back in time, We really 488 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 4: need to look forward and think about the implications of 489 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 4: this technology and find a way to adapt to it 490 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 4: and embrace it so that we can leverage it, but 491 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 4: at the same time minimize the downside risks. 492 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: So, for example, we know that's allar it's really good technology. 493 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: There are all sorts of really good clean energy choices. 494 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: We choose not to use them in this country because 495 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 1: there's all sorts of very sleazy incentive structures that politicians 496 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: get from using oil and gas and coal or whatever else. 497 00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: I mean, like, the problem is not enough solution. It's 498 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: a problem is America that is committed to using the 499 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: worst ones. 500 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 4: You know, there are definitely problems with solar in terms 501 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,360 Speaker 4: of its its ability to be a consistent source of power. Right, 502 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 4: there's no sun at night and in winter there's less there's 503 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 4: less solar power, So there are real issues there. We 504 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 4: couldn't just switch over to solar power just because we 505 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 4: want to. That's that's not realistic. But that is you know, 506 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 4: amazing research going on for example, infusion, right, and and 507 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 4: that's you know, AI is definitely playing a huge role 508 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 4: in that. That could be a tremendously you know, clean, 509 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 4: powerful source of energy for our future. So I think 510 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 4: that we need always to be open to new ideas 511 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 4: and we need to embrace progress. 512 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 3: Right. 513 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 4: We want the world to be better for our children 514 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 4: and our grandchildren and and and the ones to come 515 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 4: up after that. 516 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 3: Right. 517 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 4: We don't want to be in a situation where things 518 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,360 Speaker 4: just stop because we're afraid of these technologies. 519 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 3: I think this is, you know, something that's really quite inevitable. 520 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,919 Speaker 1: The idea that this country is going to do universe 521 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 1: basic income seems completely I mean, even the best politicians 522 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: are so deeply incompetent. The capitalists that we see right now, 523 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 1: the people who are benefiting from technology have been some 524 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: of the most craven actors that we've seen. So I 525 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: just wonder, like, how would this even work? 526 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 3: Well, you know, I agree with you. 527 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 4: It's a tremendous, staggering political challenge, that's for sure. And 528 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 4: I think history shows pretty clearly that we don't do 529 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 4: dramatic things until we get into a crisis. 530 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:34,120 Speaker 2: Right. 531 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 4: And now you can, I think draw some positive lessons 532 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 4: from what happened with COVID, Right, we got into that situation, 533 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 4: and actually the government did act pretty quickly right to 534 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 4: enhance unemployment benefits and so forth. So I think that 535 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 4: you know, at some point, if the jobs really start 536 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 4: to disappear and we see what's happening, there will be 537 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,919 Speaker 4: you know, a lot of pressure on decision makers to 538 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 4: do something. What I'm saying at this point is that 539 00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 4: we should start thinking about it ahead of time. 540 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 2: Right. 541 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 4: We should have you know, policymakers and the kind of 542 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 4: people that work in think tanks they should be looking 543 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 4: at this very closely and developing policies so that if 544 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 4: we get into this situation, you know, we can move 545 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 4: fairly rapidly. I think that that's probably how it's going 546 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 4: to play out. I don't think that that politically, it's 547 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 4: possible that we're going to do it in advance, you know, 548 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 4: in anticipation of what may happen. That's not the way 549 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 4: the world works. My main message at this point is 550 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 4: not to be complacent and just wave it off, which 551 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 4: is I think what a lot of people are doing. 552 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 4: They're just assuming everything will work out and not really 553 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 4: thinking about the potential downsides and the impact on jobs. 554 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 1: Right now, what I'm seeing is a lot of scared Americans, 555 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: a lot of companies saying they're firing people because of 556 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: AI when it's not entirely clear that that's what's happening. 557 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: Places like Matt using it as an excuse. I'm not 558 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: seeing like anyone who's particularly happy with this. If anything, 559 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: there's a culture of fear, and AI companies seem pretty 560 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: interested in stoking that culture, which makes me very suspicious. 561 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: Like when you hear the AI companies, they spend a 562 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: lot of time. When you hear these guys talking about it, 563 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: they spend a lot of time talking about how dangerous 564 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 1: this is and how it could destroy you know. I 565 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 1: mean that's a fair amount of this. I'm not seeing 566 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: a technology that is so invested in making Americans think 567 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: that it could be nefarious. Why do you think that is? 568 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 3: That's definitely been an issue with the companies there. 569 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 4: There's a lot of criticism now of the companies because 570 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 4: they've been so negative warning of all these dangers. I 571 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 4: think part of it is actually marketing. And the issue 572 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 4: is that up until this moment, they really haven't been 573 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 4: marketing to the public. They've been marketing to investors, right, 574 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 4: and the message is AI is going to change everything, 575 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 4: is going to upend every industry. So if you're going 576 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 4: to invest, the one safe place you can invest is 577 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 4: to invest in artificial intelligence, right, And that has helped 578 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 4: them to raise a lot of money. To some extent 579 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 4: that may have been part of their strategy. They went 580 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 4: a little bit overboard, But you know, I think that 581 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 4: the things that they're saying are not are not necessarily wrong. 582 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 4: It's just that they have not done enough to emphasize 583 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 4: the upside of AI and they are tremendous upsides. 584 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: But the thing that I'm so struck by with AI 585 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: is like, I just want to get my text messages. 586 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: I don't need someone to fucking summarize them for me. 587 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: AI has gotten into everything in a very annoying way. 588 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: I know this dumb lobbyist and she a couple of 589 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: years ago became very involved in AI, And what I 590 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: see everywhere is AI has sort of been smashed into 591 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: my life in the dumbest, most useless possible ways. I 592 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: don't need my Google Search ruined. So far, nothing has 593 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: helped me an AI slop where I can't tell if 594 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: it's somebody's Like, it's just all been bullshit. So like, 595 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: when do I get the benefits of AI, because I mean, 596 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: that's what I don't understand. 597 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 3: I noticed the same thing. 598 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 4: But we are very very early innings here, Okay, I 599 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 4: mean compared this to the smartphone, right, I mean the 600 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 4: iPhone came out in two thousand and seven. Okay, we're 601 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 4: about three and a half years into, you know, since 602 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 4: the release of Chat GPT, so it would like being 603 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 4: you know, in maybe twenty ten, you know, after the 604 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 4: iPhone was introduced and trying to predict the implications of smartphones, 605 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 4: and now we see all these incredible changes in our 606 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 4: society as a result of phones, right, you know, after 607 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 4: almost twenty years, people. 608 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 3: Are even saying that it's reducing. 609 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 4: Fertility now, right that because of phones, AI is going 610 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 4: to be like that too. I mean, it's going to 611 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 4: be tremendously intulmentio in all. 612 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 3: Of our lives. 613 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 4: But we're at a very very early stage right now. 614 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 4: The other thing I was, I would say, is that 615 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 4: I was a bit surprised that the first taste of 616 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 4: AI we got was actually in a consumer product. When 617 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 4: when chat GPT came out, I always imagined that when 618 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 4: we had truly powerful AI, something getting close to a 619 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 4: general intelligence, it would probably be something used only by 620 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 4: you know, research scientists, and it would be very expensive 621 00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 4: and so forth. 622 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 3: And that's not how it's out. 623 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 4: It's actually emerged as is something that we can all access, 624 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 4: and that's probably part of the reason that everything is 625 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 4: is a bit messed up. 626 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: The other night, I was at dinner and a friend said, 627 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: you know, I've been talking to chat gpt about my 628 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: problem with my kid. 629 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 3: Why people find that effective? I mean, maybe you don't 630 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 3: like it, but boy. 631 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: Just don't understand why, Like, why wouldn't you just talk 632 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: to a shrink or a person that you know who's 633 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: a human For one. 634 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 4: Thing that chat bought is there at twenty four to seven, right, 635 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 4: so if you wake up at three in the morning 636 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 4: and you're having a you know, some sort of a 637 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 4: mental crisis, you have someone to talk to at that time, 638 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 4: was you know, would not be true of a doctor, right. 639 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 4: You know, I think many people really find this useful, 640 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 4: you know, as a something to talk to, something to 641 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 4: work through problems with, something that can be kind of 642 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 4: a coworker in. 643 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 3: Developing ideas and so forth. 644 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 4: So I think, you know, your take on it is 645 00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 4: probably more negative than most people. 646 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 3: I think. 647 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 4: I think that there are definitely problems with the technology, 648 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 4: but there are enormous upsides, and I think that many 649 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 4: people have really embraced it already. 650 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: I'm excited for an upside. I'm the worst. I mean, 651 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 1: this has got to be me, and I'm sure that 652 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: the AI robots will kill me first, hopefully. But it 653 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: just strikes me that, like, it's a solution without a 654 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: problem at this moment, and we're being told that we 655 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: have to get ready for it to thoroughly disrupt our lives. 656 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: But I'm excited to be wrong. 657 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 4: You know, AI has already done some amazing things. I mean, 658 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 4: probably the best example is Google Deep Minds Alpha fold, 659 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 4: which is a system that figured out protein folding, which 660 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 4: is really really important in medicine and biotechnology in many, 661 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 4: many fields. And they've actually revolutionized that whole field. I mean, 662 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 4: and that's not something that you can see immediately, but 663 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 4: in terms of the scientists and the doctors working on 664 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 4: new cures, new medications, new biomedical technologies, it's incredibly important. 665 00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 4: So a lot of stuff is happening that maybe isn't 666 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 4: so visible. It's not all just aislot. I mean, I 667 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 4: understand that that's sort of the leading edge of maybe 668 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 4: what you see every day, and I think that hopefully 669 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 4: that will get better over time. But there is definitely 670 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 4: a lot of very powerful things happening in the background 671 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 4: that represents a real upside to this technology. 672 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us, Martin. 673 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 3: Thank you great to be here. 674 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 675 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best 676 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 677 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 678 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.