WEBVTT - Let's go with Giving Old Batteries New Life

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin. So the world is basically just starting this massive

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<v Speaker 1>shift from fossil fuels to a combination of renewable energy

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<v Speaker 1>and battery storage. This is good news. I hope it

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<v Speaker 1>happens as quickly as possible, but it is going to

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<v Speaker 1>be a massive, complicated, hard transition. One of the many

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<v Speaker 1>ways in which it is complicated and hard is building

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<v Speaker 1>and dealing with all those batteries we're going to need.

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<v Speaker 1>At a basic level, takes a lot of metal, a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of nickel, a lot of cobalt, just to make

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<v Speaker 1>all the batteries we're going to need, And mining and

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<v Speaker 1>refining those metals is a thing that basically doesn't happen

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<v Speaker 1>in the US or in Europe anymore, at least doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>happen at any significant scale, and for understandable reasons. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>this is an intense, often dirty, industrial process, and so

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<v Speaker 1>as you might guess, a huge share of industrial refining

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<v Speaker 1>of these kinds of metals now happens in China. And

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<v Speaker 1>on top of getting the metal out of the ground

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<v Speaker 1>and refined in the first place, there's a second complication.

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<v Speaker 1>Batteries wear out. What do we do with all that

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<v Speaker 1>potentially useful metal once a battery has finished its useful

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<v Speaker 1>life as a battery. So just to sum up to recap,

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<v Speaker 1>the world needs a huge new supply of batteries, but

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<v Speaker 1>especially in the US and Europe, it's not clear how

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<v Speaker 1>we can get the metal we need to make all

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<v Speaker 1>those batteries, and it's also not clear what we should

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<v Speaker 1>do with those batteries when they wear out. I'm Jacob

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<v Speaker 1>Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the show where

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<v Speaker 1>I talk to people who are trying to make technological progress.

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<v Speaker 1>My guest today is Megan O'Connor. She's the co founder

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<v Speaker 1>and CEO of a company called en Cycle, like the

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<v Speaker 1>letter in and then thh and then cycle. Megan's problem

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<v Speaker 1>is this, can you come up with an efficient system

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<v Speaker 1>that can both refine the raw metals we need for

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<v Speaker 1>batteries and recycle old batteries to extract that metal so

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<v Speaker 1>it can be used again in new batteries. Megan told

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<v Speaker 1>me that she first had the idea for the company

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<v Speaker 1>when she was getting her PhD in environmental engineering. Her

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<v Speaker 1>PhD is from Duke, but the idea actually came out

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<v Speaker 1>of this meeting she went to at Yale and it

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<v Speaker 1>was weirdly hard for her to get in the door

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<v Speaker 1>of that meeting.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the professors there was a head of the

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<v Speaker 2>Green Chemistry and Green Engineering school, and he wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>bring industry in to help really direct the center's research

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<v Speaker 2>to what industry cares about.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's one of the reasons why I went to

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<v Speaker 2>grad school, is like work on something that industry really

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<v Speaker 2>cares about and that has a real problem. And I

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<v Speaker 2>overheard him talking about this green Electronic summit in the

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<v Speaker 2>hallway a couple weeks before, and it was completely clear

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<v Speaker 2>off to students. So it was supposed to be like

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<v Speaker 2>a closed door meeting with these like you know, large

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<v Speaker 2>consumer electronic OEMs, so like Apple, Dell, Intel, folks who

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<v Speaker 2>make our cell phones and laptops and things. And I

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<v Speaker 2>really wanted to be in this room even though it

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<v Speaker 2>was closed off to students and other faculty. So what

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<v Speaker 2>I had to do is banged down this professor's door

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<v Speaker 2>for three weeks straight, and I think he finally just

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<v Speaker 2>gave in and staid, Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>Badgering is an underrated strategy.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm very determined, which I think you'll hear a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of entrepreneurs say. But I really wanted me in this meeting,

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<v Speaker 2>say like, okay, does industry actually care about any of

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<v Speaker 2>this that I've been researching? Right, And so he finally

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<v Speaker 2>let me in as a scribe, said all right, I

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<v Speaker 2>need somebody to take notes. Come in and take notes

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<v Speaker 2>for nine hours. So I sat there and over and

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<v Speaker 2>over and over again in this in this summit, every

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<v Speaker 2>single manufacturing company in there said the same two things. One,

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<v Speaker 2>they have no idea what At the time this was

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<v Speaker 2>ten years ago, they didn't know what to do with

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<v Speaker 2>their waste. Right. They said, look, we're all trying to

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<v Speaker 2>be leaders in transparency, in the supply chains, sustainability, right,

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<v Speaker 2>whatever you want to call it. They wanted to be

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<v Speaker 2>leaders in that space for their consumers, but they don't

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<v Speaker 2>know and didn't know how they were going to deal

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<v Speaker 2>with the growing waste management problem.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>So every time you buy a new cell phone or

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<v Speaker 2>every time you buy a new smart watch, right, where

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<v Speaker 2>does the where do those things end up? And so

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<v Speaker 2>they said, look, e waste, right, electronics waste is already

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<v Speaker 2>a massive problem around the world, and that we don't

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<v Speaker 2>really know how to solve. Imagine when these clean energy

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<v Speaker 2>technologies like electric vehicles, like wind turbines, like solar panels

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<v Speaker 2>start to come offline, those are considered electronics waste. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>it's just gonna it's going to exacerbate.

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<v Speaker 1>Orders of magnet orders of magnitude larger, right than a

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<v Speaker 1>cell phone electric car is just a driving battery as

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<v Speaker 1>a bat exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>And so what are we going to do with all

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<v Speaker 2>this waste once we start generating it?

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<v Speaker 1>Right?

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<v Speaker 2>As these companies they've said, you know, we want to

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<v Speaker 2>try to figure out how to take responsibility for this

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<v Speaker 2>in our supply chains, but we don't know how to

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<v Speaker 2>do that. And then the second round they all said,

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<v Speaker 2>is we don't know what our supply chains are going

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<v Speaker 2>to look like. Right again, a cell phone, you is

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<v Speaker 2>a couple of grams of cobalts, whereas an EV uses

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<v Speaker 2>orders of magnitude more metal in their batteries. And so

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<v Speaker 2>you think about we're already having supply chain issues and

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<v Speaker 2>accessing you know, that cobalt. What does that look like

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<v Speaker 2>when we start to hopefully manufacture and push out all

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<v Speaker 2>these much larger technologies.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, millions of election millions of electric.

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<v Speaker 2>Vehicles hopefully, And then you add the winterbines, and then

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<v Speaker 2>you add the solar panels, right, the same the same

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<v Speaker 2>things I said before, and it just the supply chains

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<v Speaker 2>just become bigger and bigger problem.

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<v Speaker 3>And so I walked to that.

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<v Speaker 2>Meeting feeling a like a little angry that like, how

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<v Speaker 2>are we barreling down this path again generating all this

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<v Speaker 2>waste when we have no way of dealing with it,

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<v Speaker 2>but then also feeling a little inspired and said, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>we have all this waste. Is there a way and

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<v Speaker 2>is there a technology that exists out there to be

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<v Speaker 2>able to take that waste and turn it back into

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<v Speaker 2>metals so you can have a secondary supply of these

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<v Speaker 2>materials and sort of kill tubers with one stone.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So you have this this kind of big idea,

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<v Speaker 1>you talk about it with your advisor, a professor named

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<v Speaker 1>desire Plato, right, And then, as I understand it, you

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<v Speaker 1>and your advisor you think of this technology that a

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<v Speaker 1>Harvard professor had been working on, but not in this context, right,

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<v Speaker 1>working on for water filtration. So you go to this professor,

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<v Speaker 1>as I understand the story, his name is Chad Vesidas,

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<v Speaker 1>and is it right? Like you basically ask him if

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<v Speaker 1>you can try and apply his technique to recycle batteries

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<v Speaker 1>to refine metal. And then the three of you wind

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<v Speaker 1>up starting the company together. Is that right?

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<v Speaker 3>Right?

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<v Speaker 2>So I approached Chad and I said, hey, you don't

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<v Speaker 2>know me, but you know Desi a little bit, and

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<v Speaker 2>can I use your technology for this application?

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<v Speaker 3>He said yes.

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<v Speaker 2>This was my third year of my PhD, so for

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<v Speaker 2>folks out there, it's typically a five to six year program,

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<v Speaker 2>so I was already halfway through. So it was a

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<v Speaker 2>little crazy of me to switch my project that far in.

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<v Speaker 2>But I felt very strongly that, you know, there there

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<v Speaker 2>was a solution that was needed here, and I went

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<v Speaker 2>to grad school to try and find a problem and

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<v Speaker 2>provide a technology solution. So I sort of dove headfirst

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<v Speaker 2>into it. So for the next three years, Chad, Desree

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<v Speaker 2>and I, you know, continue to work on this technology together,

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<v Speaker 2>and by the end of my PhD, it worked so

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<v Speaker 2>well that I felt if I put the right team together,

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<v Speaker 2>I think this technology could really change the world. They

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<v Speaker 2>could change the way that we refine metal. This industry

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<v Speaker 2>hasn't had any type of technological change in decades, right,

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<v Speaker 2>Like I'm talking close to one hundred years, right, This

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<v Speaker 2>has been the same technology we've seen and it's clearly

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<v Speaker 2>not working here in the US. It hasn't been adopted here.

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<v Speaker 2>So this is where technology can really have an impact

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<v Speaker 2>for the clean energy economy.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean when you say the technology, I mean you

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<v Speaker 1>mean specifically refining metals. Basically, Right, you've got metals, whether

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<v Speaker 1>it's recycling and they're mixed up with a bunch of

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<v Speaker 1>other stuff, or they're coming out of the ground and

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<v Speaker 1>they're mixed up with a bunch of other stuff. The

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<v Speaker 1>fundamental thing is, how do you separate out the metal

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<v Speaker 1>you want, whatever, the lithium, the nickel, the cobalt. That's

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<v Speaker 1>the funny thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly take from those sources, whether it's out of the

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<v Speaker 2>ground or out of some recycled end of life material,

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<v Speaker 2>and turn it back into basically something that's usable. Again,

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<v Speaker 2>that's what the chemical refining step does.

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<v Speaker 1>Why hadn't refining changed for one hundred years.

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<v Speaker 2>Most of the refining that's sent around the world is

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<v Speaker 2>in the mining industry, right, So these mining companies typically

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<v Speaker 2>will develop an asset, a long life asset, and an

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<v Speaker 2>asset meaning just the mine itself where they dig the

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<v Speaker 2>dirt and the metals out of the ground, and then

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<v Speaker 2>they typically stand the refinery up literally right next door.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>They want to eliminate as much of that transportation as

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<v Speaker 2>possible because these metals are in such low concentration. It's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of dirt to a little bit of metal, right.

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<v Speaker 1>You don't want to move one hundred pounds of dirt

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<v Speaker 1>a thousand miles to get one pound of exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>So the refining industry was really centered around this mining space.

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<v Speaker 2>And so it was only when folks really started to

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<v Speaker 2>look at the recycling space, and I talk battery recycling

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<v Speaker 2>specifically right now, it was like, Okay, you have this big,

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<v Speaker 2>multi billion dollar refinery where you process eighty thousand tons

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<v Speaker 2>of material per year, which is massive, and you have

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<v Speaker 2>a recycling industry where a again you don't have a

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<v Speaker 2>magic pile of eighty thousand tons of batteries right in

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<v Speaker 2>one place. And batteries are changing, right, There's different types

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<v Speaker 2>of batteries from different companies, they have different chemistries, which

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<v Speaker 2>just means it makes it really hard to recycle them

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<v Speaker 2>all in this one facility. And so just that model,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, doesn't match.

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<v Speaker 3>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>Some of those mining refineries will take a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>of recycled material, but again they're all overseas, right, So

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<v Speaker 2>then you come to that national security challenge and so.

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<v Speaker 1>And so the setting aside the overseas part that the

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<v Speaker 1>fundamental problem is they're built to process a huge amount

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<v Speaker 1>of some very homogeneous and consistent input for a long time.

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<v Speaker 1>Like that's the economic model, that's correct, and that's the

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<v Speaker 1>fundamental problem.

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<v Speaker 3>That's the fundamental problem.

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<v Speaker 1>So how do you do it?

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<v Speaker 2>We have developed a new technology we call electro extraction,

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<v Speaker 2>and so it's a it's a fancy word to say

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<v Speaker 2>that we use the same chemicals that you see in

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<v Speaker 2>refining today in those massive facilities I talked about, and

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<v Speaker 2>those are produced with fossil energy, so they're produced fossil

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<v Speaker 2>energy and then trucked to those sites. What we figured

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<v Speaker 2>out is to overcome the barrier of having to build

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<v Speaker 2>this massive facility, we could create a smaller, modular facility

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<v Speaker 2>to be able to process the smaller volumes of recycle

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<v Speaker 2>material that we have around the Western world by producing

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<v Speaker 2>the same chemicals with electricity, so we can produce them

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<v Speaker 2>when we need them, where we need them, and only

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<v Speaker 2>as much as we need them. And so that gives

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<v Speaker 2>us the efficiencies that we needed both from a cost

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<v Speaker 2>and energy perspective to be able to really scale down

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<v Speaker 2>that process instead of having to do eighty thousand tons

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<v Speaker 2>to justify this project per year, we only need to

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<v Speaker 2>do a minimum of two to three thousand tons per year.

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<v Speaker 2>So that allows us to work with all these different

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<v Speaker 2>recycling companies. And whether it's one type of battery or

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<v Speaker 2>nickel catalyst material, right, we process all different times types

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<v Speaker 2>of sort of scrap or end of life materials. And

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<v Speaker 2>we've overcome some big barriers to just getting refining capacity here,

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<v Speaker 2>both in the US and in Europe.

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<v Speaker 1>And is it right that you just turned on your

0:11:22.196 --> 0:11:27.156
<v Speaker 1>first real facility last second half of last year in Ohio.

0:11:27.556 --> 0:11:30.116
<v Speaker 2>That's right, and we just went live in September twenty

0:11:30.116 --> 0:11:32.396
<v Speaker 2>twenty four, so we're very excited. We have about eight

0:11:32.436 --> 0:11:34.556
<v Speaker 2>months of operations und our belt now.

0:11:34.716 --> 0:11:37.436
<v Speaker 1>So tell me about what's happening in Ohio.

0:11:37.796 --> 0:11:40.116
<v Speaker 2>In Ohio, So it's our refining system, which we call

0:11:40.196 --> 0:11:43.716
<v Speaker 2>the Oyster for shorts, and so our facility, it's a

0:11:43.716 --> 0:11:47.076
<v Speaker 2>big industrial warehouse. And basically what my system looks like,

0:11:47.596 --> 0:11:49.876
<v Speaker 2>I like to think of it as a deck of cards.

0:11:49.956 --> 0:11:50.076
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:11:50.156 --> 0:11:53.956
<v Speaker 2>So our electrochemical filters, as I mentioned before, think of

0:11:53.996 --> 0:11:57.476
<v Speaker 2>their like big plastic cards. So they're one meter wide,

0:11:57.676 --> 0:11:59.956
<v Speaker 2>one meter tall, and I have one hundred and forty

0:11:59.996 --> 0:12:02.356
<v Speaker 2>of those sort of stacked in parallels to think of

0:12:02.396 --> 0:12:05.316
<v Speaker 2>like a sideways deck of cards. And so inside those

0:12:05.356 --> 0:12:08.036
<v Speaker 2>cells is where I pull out the metals like the

0:12:08.116 --> 0:12:11.316
<v Speaker 2>nickel and the cobalt that we want back out for manufacturers.

0:12:11.316 --> 0:12:14.316
<v Speaker 2>So when I get these shredded battery materials in, if

0:12:14.316 --> 0:12:17.076
<v Speaker 2>you walked into my facility today, you'd see a giant

0:12:17.116 --> 0:12:20.156
<v Speaker 2>tank on the left hand side facility. We'd dump that

0:12:20.276 --> 0:12:23.436
<v Speaker 2>shredded battery material into that tank. We dissolve it, and

0:12:23.476 --> 0:12:25.316
<v Speaker 2>so all those dissolved metals are in there.

0:12:25.396 --> 0:12:28.516
<v Speaker 1>So the shredded battery which is called black mass. Is

0:12:28.556 --> 0:12:31.276
<v Speaker 1>that right? You haven't said black mass. I'm sort of disappointed.

0:12:31.316 --> 0:12:33.076
<v Speaker 1>I was excited for you to state black mass.

0:12:33.156 --> 0:12:34.436
<v Speaker 3>Yes, it's called black mass.

0:12:34.716 --> 0:12:37.636
<v Speaker 2>It just it literally looks like black like flower, like

0:12:37.636 --> 0:12:39.436
<v Speaker 2>the flower that you'd bake with. It just looks like

0:12:39.436 --> 0:12:41.156
<v Speaker 2>a black version of that, which is very interesting.

0:12:41.276 --> 0:12:43.996
<v Speaker 1>So you get truckloads of black mass? Or did you

0:12:44.036 --> 0:12:47.236
<v Speaker 1>build your facility next to that of some company that

0:12:47.276 --> 0:12:49.916
<v Speaker 1>shreds batteries and creates black mass? Is that why you're there?

0:12:49.996 --> 0:12:53.436
<v Speaker 2>The reason we chose Fairfield was because there's a lot

0:12:53.476 --> 0:12:58.876
<v Speaker 2>of just industrial scrap that finds its way to the Midwest.

0:12:58.516 --> 0:13:00.636
<v Speaker 1>The black mass capital of the.

0:13:00.516 --> 0:13:02.316
<v Speaker 2>There is a couple of black mass companies around there

0:13:02.316 --> 0:13:04.316
<v Speaker 2>that take the batteries and show them into black mass,

0:13:04.356 --> 0:13:07.756
<v Speaker 2>and then we also process other types of industrial scrap

0:13:07.836 --> 0:13:11.796
<v Speaker 2>like catalysts from the oil gas industry. So that area

0:13:11.836 --> 0:13:14.036
<v Speaker 2>is just rich with those types of companies.

0:13:14.316 --> 0:13:16.556
<v Speaker 1>So you've got your deck of cards. I like the

0:13:16.596 --> 0:13:19.076
<v Speaker 1>deck of cards. It's a metaphor. They're sort of stacked

0:13:19.156 --> 0:13:21.876
<v Speaker 1>a little spaced out. The black mass goes in one side,

0:13:22.356 --> 0:13:25.196
<v Speaker 1>you dissolve it into a liquid, and then what happens.

0:13:24.916 --> 0:13:28.476
<v Speaker 2>And then that liquid goes into our deca cards oyster system.

0:13:28.956 --> 0:13:32.076
<v Speaker 2>That's where the chemicals are being produced in those cells

0:13:32.116 --> 0:13:34.076
<v Speaker 2>to pull out the cobalt, to pull out the nickel,

0:13:34.876 --> 0:13:36.716
<v Speaker 2>and then they come out the other side as the

0:13:36.716 --> 0:13:37.756
<v Speaker 2>product that we can sell.

0:13:38.276 --> 0:13:41.396
<v Speaker 1>And are you actually buying the black mass and selling

0:13:41.436 --> 0:13:43.916
<v Speaker 1>the nickel? Are you in the nickel business?

0:13:44.156 --> 0:13:45.996
<v Speaker 2>For this facility, we are so we called a merchant

0:13:45.996 --> 0:13:49.876
<v Speaker 2>facility where yes, we buy black mass from different partner

0:13:49.876 --> 0:13:52.676
<v Speaker 2>facilities and then we are selling the nickel product on

0:13:52.716 --> 0:13:54.556
<v Speaker 2>the other side of it. This will be the only

0:13:54.596 --> 0:13:56.676
<v Speaker 2>facility that we have that sort of again, I call

0:13:56.716 --> 0:13:59.436
<v Speaker 2>it a merchant facility for the business model, and we

0:13:59.476 --> 0:14:01.156
<v Speaker 2>did it for the first one again because it was

0:14:01.196 --> 0:14:03.796
<v Speaker 2>the first time that we've built the system at commercial scale,

0:14:03.876 --> 0:14:06.156
<v Speaker 2>so we wanted full site control.

0:14:06.516 --> 0:14:08.756
<v Speaker 3>And then we also use it as a business development tool.

0:14:08.836 --> 0:14:12.196
<v Speaker 2>Right. Our traditional business model moving forward will be to

0:14:12.276 --> 0:14:15.476
<v Speaker 2>operate under what's called a tolling model, and so it's

0:14:15.516 --> 0:14:18.396
<v Speaker 2>really where we'll go on site with our partners and

0:14:18.556 --> 0:14:21.716
<v Speaker 2>Cycle will own and operate our system on their site,

0:14:21.756 --> 0:14:24.516
<v Speaker 2>and we'll charge them a fee per pound of save

0:14:24.596 --> 0:14:27.556
<v Speaker 2>battery or black mass that we process for them. So

0:14:27.596 --> 0:14:30.556
<v Speaker 2>think of almost like refining as a service, if you will.

0:14:30.676 --> 0:14:34.356
<v Speaker 2>So they'll own the feedstock, we'll charge them to process it,

0:14:34.396 --> 0:14:36.796
<v Speaker 2>and then they'll own the nickel product coming out on

0:14:36.836 --> 0:14:37.516
<v Speaker 2>the other side.

0:14:37.556 --> 0:14:40.116
<v Speaker 1>Because you don't want to be in the nickel business.

0:14:39.676 --> 0:14:41.396
<v Speaker 2>As a young company, we wanted to only take the

0:14:41.476 --> 0:14:43.876
<v Speaker 2>risks we had to. Yeah, so we felt like, Okay,

0:14:43.876 --> 0:14:46.196
<v Speaker 2>we can handle the operational risk. It's our technology. We'll

0:14:46.236 --> 0:14:47.756
<v Speaker 2>do what we're good at, and then we'll let these

0:14:47.756 --> 0:14:49.396
<v Speaker 2>companies do it they're good at because they've been in

0:14:50.076 --> 0:14:53.116
<v Speaker 2>Remember these companies have been in the commodity business for decades.

0:14:53.196 --> 0:14:54.156
<v Speaker 3>Right or longer.

0:14:54.436 --> 0:14:57.116
<v Speaker 2>I mean, they're very skilled in like the logistics and

0:14:57.196 --> 0:14:58.476
<v Speaker 2>the collection and no.

0:14:58.516 --> 0:15:00.636
<v Speaker 1>Commodity business is crazy. Why would you want to do that?

0:15:00.676 --> 0:15:02.676
<v Speaker 1>If you have some technology, you believe it and let

0:15:02.716 --> 0:15:04.156
<v Speaker 1>other people solve that problem.

0:15:04.276 --> 0:15:06.196
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we want to be the technologists. We want to

0:15:06.196 --> 0:15:09.116
<v Speaker 2>be the technology provider. So that's our business model moving forward.

0:15:09.196 --> 0:15:11.756
<v Speaker 2>And so what we use OHIO for is really like

0:15:12.196 --> 0:15:14.516
<v Speaker 2>a tool to show them what the technology looks like.

0:15:14.836 --> 0:15:18.156
<v Speaker 2>We can process their material, you know, at lower volumes there,

0:15:18.276 --> 0:15:19.796
<v Speaker 2>to show them what we can do with it. It

0:15:19.876 --> 0:15:22.716
<v Speaker 2>de risks it on both sides as we're going into

0:15:22.756 --> 0:15:24.636
<v Speaker 2>this more partnership model with them in the future.

0:15:25.596 --> 0:15:28.116
<v Speaker 1>So we've been talking about nickel. I heard you talk

0:15:28.156 --> 0:15:32.756
<v Speaker 1>in earlier interviews about nickel in particular, or this nickel

0:15:32.796 --> 0:15:37.796
<v Speaker 1>product more specifically in particular as being acutely affected by

0:15:37.876 --> 0:15:40.756
<v Speaker 1>kind of legal and regulatory changes both in the US

0:15:41.436 --> 0:15:44.316
<v Speaker 1>and in Europe. In a way that is good for you, right,

0:15:44.356 --> 0:15:46.156
<v Speaker 1>in a way that like those may be about to

0:15:46.196 --> 0:15:47.036
<v Speaker 1>go away.

0:15:46.836 --> 0:15:49.036
<v Speaker 2>They are are they maybe us right, we don't know.

0:15:49.076 --> 0:15:51.516
<v Speaker 1>Yet, and they seem likely to be about.

0:15:51.596 --> 0:15:52.716
<v Speaker 3>Likely to go away. That's right.

0:15:53.276 --> 0:15:57.316
<v Speaker 2>But I would say this administration also prioritizes critical minerals

0:15:57.396 --> 0:15:59.556
<v Speaker 2>just for other reasons, right, so more on the national

0:15:59.596 --> 0:16:02.516
<v Speaker 2>security side, and to really onchour our supply chain. So

0:16:02.876 --> 0:16:07.876
<v Speaker 2>there is equally as much demand for domestically produced materials,

0:16:07.956 --> 0:16:10.436
<v Speaker 2>just for a different reason. And so we still feel

0:16:10.636 --> 0:16:12.996
<v Speaker 2>like a ton of tailwinds with the executive orders, and

0:16:13.036 --> 0:16:15.036
<v Speaker 2>we'll see how that translates into policy in the next

0:16:15.036 --> 0:16:15.756
<v Speaker 2>couple of years.

0:16:16.276 --> 0:16:18.436
<v Speaker 1>So the end of the ev mandate is bad for you,

0:16:18.476 --> 0:16:19.796
<v Speaker 1>but high tariffs are good for you.

0:16:20.156 --> 0:16:21.396
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if I put it like that, but

0:16:21.596 --> 0:16:25.756
<v Speaker 2>we are definitely taking advantage of the desire to have

0:16:25.996 --> 0:16:28.116
<v Speaker 2>on shoing of these critical and il supply chains and

0:16:28.156 --> 0:16:30.436
<v Speaker 2>being one of the companies in the space that's operational.

0:16:30.476 --> 0:16:32.556
<v Speaker 3>So I think it's a good signal.

0:16:32.276 --> 0:16:34.676
<v Speaker 2>For us to scale quickly to be able to provide

0:16:34.956 --> 0:16:37.876
<v Speaker 2>both the military and again the folks who are still

0:16:37.916 --> 0:16:40.996
<v Speaker 2>pushing forward through the clean energy economy and the technologies

0:16:40.996 --> 0:16:43.276
<v Speaker 2>they're building, Right, they both need supply of these materials

0:16:43.316 --> 0:16:43.916
<v Speaker 2>they are used for.

0:16:43.876 --> 0:16:47.076
<v Speaker 1>Both pivoting from being an energy transition company to being

0:16:47.076 --> 0:16:51.596
<v Speaker 1>in an American energy dominance company. That's right, we same company, right,

0:16:51.876 --> 0:16:52.716
<v Speaker 1>different wrapper.

0:16:53.116 --> 0:16:55.236
<v Speaker 2>It's very true both we need both of those things.

0:16:55.276 --> 0:16:57.716
<v Speaker 2>And then you know on the on the European side,

0:16:57.716 --> 0:17:00.036
<v Speaker 2>where they haven't had much change in terms of their

0:17:00.116 --> 0:17:02.316
<v Speaker 2>their regulatory environment as I like to think about it,

0:17:02.356 --> 0:17:05.276
<v Speaker 2>but they care about this again for a different reason.

0:17:05.356 --> 0:17:07.836
<v Speaker 2>They have something that's called the battery passport where they're

0:17:07.836 --> 0:17:10.716
<v Speaker 2>going to have to reduce the carbon footprint of their

0:17:11.036 --> 0:17:14.076
<v Speaker 2>batteries that are being produced. And it starts with the metals, right,

0:17:14.116 --> 0:17:19.356
<v Speaker 2>And so currently where you can source the vast majority

0:17:19.356 --> 0:17:22.036
<v Speaker 2>of the nickel around the world uses a technology that

0:17:22.156 --> 0:17:23.796
<v Speaker 2>is very carbon intensive.

0:17:23.836 --> 0:17:24.916
<v Speaker 3>It's called HPAL.

0:17:25.396 --> 0:17:28.396
<v Speaker 2>HPAL is the acronym if folks care to look that up.

0:17:28.396 --> 0:17:30.596
<v Speaker 2>But it's just a very very carbon intensive way to

0:17:30.996 --> 0:17:33.676
<v Speaker 2>produce this nickel out of the nickel mining that happens

0:17:33.676 --> 0:17:37.276
<v Speaker 2>in Indonesia, and it's so carbon intensive that it doesn't

0:17:37.316 --> 0:17:40.436
<v Speaker 2>meet those requirements. So Europe is forced to try and

0:17:40.516 --> 0:17:44.396
<v Speaker 2>find another source of these materials. And on top of that,

0:17:44.436 --> 0:17:47.836
<v Speaker 2>they have very strict recycling rates that they'll have to

0:17:47.916 --> 0:17:51.156
<v Speaker 2>hit over the next several years. It sort of forces

0:17:51.236 --> 0:17:55.956
<v Speaker 2>industry within the EU to develop recycling and refining technologies.

0:17:56.276 --> 0:17:58.476
<v Speaker 2>And then on top of that, if you do recycle

0:17:58.476 --> 0:18:01.356
<v Speaker 2>the batteries, there and you produce this black mass. They've

0:18:01.396 --> 0:18:04.636
<v Speaker 2>also now classified this black mass as a very specific

0:18:04.676 --> 0:18:08.436
<v Speaker 2>type of hazardous waste, which means that it's very difficult

0:18:08.436 --> 0:18:12.516
<v Speaker 2>and nearly impotus to ship the black mass between country

0:18:12.556 --> 0:18:13.996
<v Speaker 2>borders within the EU.

0:18:14.516 --> 0:18:18.516
<v Speaker 1>Uh huh. Arguably a self defeating regulation, but perhaps good

0:18:18.516 --> 0:18:19.836
<v Speaker 1>for your business, great for.

0:18:19.916 --> 0:18:22.196
<v Speaker 2>End cycle because we are the only one of the

0:18:22.236 --> 0:18:25.396
<v Speaker 2>only modular technologies that can go into each country and

0:18:25.676 --> 0:18:28.196
<v Speaker 2>help them turn that black mass into a product that

0:18:28.236 --> 0:18:31.156
<v Speaker 2>they can easily move across borders. Right, So again, this

0:18:31.676 --> 0:18:36.556
<v Speaker 2>distributed modular refining approach is quickly becoming the only way

0:18:36.556 --> 0:18:39.196
<v Speaker 2>that they'll be able to solve these challenges within the EU.

0:18:39.236 --> 0:18:41.396
<v Speaker 2>And then I think similar to here in the US, right,

0:18:41.396 --> 0:18:43.596
<v Speaker 2>we have not been able to build sort of traditional

0:18:43.676 --> 0:18:44.396
<v Speaker 2>technology here.

0:18:44.876 --> 0:18:46.436
<v Speaker 1>So when are you going to turn on the first

0:18:46.516 --> 0:18:47.596
<v Speaker 1>oyster in Europe?

0:18:48.036 --> 0:18:50.196
<v Speaker 2>So the goal would be twenty twenty six. So we're

0:18:50.236 --> 0:18:53.156
<v Speaker 2>working with some partners now to try and solidify what

0:18:53.196 --> 0:18:55.876
<v Speaker 2>those projects will look like, but starting construction in twenty

0:18:55.876 --> 0:18:56.716
<v Speaker 2>twenty six is the goal.

0:18:57.796 --> 0:19:00.156
<v Speaker 1>So we've been talking about nickel. Is that going to

0:19:00.236 --> 0:19:02.996
<v Speaker 1>be your main output for a while? I mean, can

0:19:03.036 --> 0:19:05.716
<v Speaker 1>it be anything that's can it be lithium, Can it

0:19:05.756 --> 0:19:07.676
<v Speaker 1>be cobalt? Like, how does that work?

0:19:08.196 --> 0:19:10.476
<v Speaker 2>Yes, the main product out of the system is like

0:19:10.516 --> 0:19:13.636
<v Speaker 2>a mixture of cobalt and nickel. Actually it's called nickel MHP,

0:19:13.716 --> 0:19:15.876
<v Speaker 2>which is a very industry specific term. It's just a

0:19:15.956 --> 0:19:19.076
<v Speaker 2>nickel product. We also produce a lithium product out of

0:19:19.116 --> 0:19:22.276
<v Speaker 2>the black mass as well. And then in development, we

0:19:22.356 --> 0:19:24.436
<v Speaker 2>have a new system for copper, so a lot of

0:19:24.476 --> 0:19:27.316
<v Speaker 2>our partners have copper scrap. We're also talking some copper

0:19:27.356 --> 0:19:29.236
<v Speaker 2>mining companies about some of the issues they're having to

0:19:29.276 --> 0:19:30.516
<v Speaker 2>deploy the technology there.

0:19:31.156 --> 0:19:32.756
<v Speaker 3>And then we also have one for rare earths.

0:19:32.956 --> 0:19:35.116
<v Speaker 2>So the rare earths are the metals in think like

0:19:35.156 --> 0:19:37.956
<v Speaker 2>the magnets that are in your motors, in the wind

0:19:37.956 --> 0:19:41.316
<v Speaker 2>turbines that you might see hopefully in your backyard. So

0:19:41.676 --> 0:19:45.356
<v Speaker 2>it's two other systems to try and produce as much

0:19:45.396 --> 0:19:47.716
<v Speaker 2>of these critical minerals as we possibly can, because they

0:19:47.756 --> 0:19:50.476
<v Speaker 2>all face the same challenges, right, they're all refined. The

0:19:50.556 --> 0:19:53.716
<v Speaker 2>vestnory them are fined overseas, and it causes again a

0:19:53.716 --> 0:19:56.836
<v Speaker 2>big national security issue and just limits us into how

0:19:56.916 --> 0:19:59.396
<v Speaker 2>quickly we can build these technologies here in the US

0:19:59.436 --> 0:20:01.276
<v Speaker 2>and Europe.

0:20:02.436 --> 0:20:12.996
<v Speaker 1>We'll be back in just a minute. What's the rate

0:20:13.076 --> 0:20:14.716
<v Speaker 1>limiting step for you and expanding?

0:20:14.756 --> 0:20:16.596
<v Speaker 2>I'd say the rate limiting step for us now is

0:20:16.636 --> 0:20:18.716
<v Speaker 2>a combination of funding and just the team.

0:20:18.796 --> 0:20:18.956
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:20:18.996 --> 0:20:21.076
<v Speaker 2>So, I think we're ready to go, and we will

0:20:21.116 --> 0:20:23.596
<v Speaker 2>be fundraising in the next several months to go out

0:20:23.596 --> 0:20:25.876
<v Speaker 2>and do these projects, and then with that funding, we'll

0:20:25.916 --> 0:20:28.116
<v Speaker 2>build the team that we need to go execute.

0:20:28.156 --> 0:20:30.076
<v Speaker 1>I mean, in terms of funding, if you sign a

0:20:30.116 --> 0:20:33.556
<v Speaker 1>contract with some company to do refining as a service

0:20:33.556 --> 0:20:37.196
<v Speaker 1>for them, can you borrow against that contract to build

0:20:37.196 --> 0:20:40.796
<v Speaker 1>the thing that they promised to pay you to use? Yeah,

0:20:40.836 --> 0:20:43.596
<v Speaker 1>Like a factory is a classic thing that it's collateral.

0:20:43.636 --> 0:20:45.036
<v Speaker 1>You could borrow money in it. Or is it not

0:20:45.076 --> 0:20:47.396
<v Speaker 1>collateral because nobody's ever built one before and the bank

0:20:47.436 --> 0:20:48.076
<v Speaker 1>doesn't try it.

0:20:48.236 --> 0:20:50.756
<v Speaker 2>We're somewhere in the middle. So we're in this for

0:20:50.796 --> 0:20:53.556
<v Speaker 2>folks out there who may be building or have heard

0:20:53.556 --> 0:20:55.556
<v Speaker 2>of other startups going through this phase, it's called like

0:20:55.636 --> 0:20:57.076
<v Speaker 2>the scale gap, the missing middle.

0:20:57.436 --> 0:21:00.116
<v Speaker 1>Huh, you got one and you want ten? And how

0:21:00.156 --> 0:21:00.636
<v Speaker 1>do you get there?

0:21:00.716 --> 0:21:01.356
<v Speaker 3>And you get the money?

0:21:01.356 --> 0:21:04.116
<v Speaker 2>Because we still have some technical risk right of course,

0:21:04.116 --> 0:21:05.556
<v Speaker 2>because it's a second of a kind and a first

0:21:05.556 --> 0:21:06.036
<v Speaker 2>of its kind.

0:21:06.076 --> 0:21:07.276
<v Speaker 3>Ohio is our first a kind.

0:21:07.316 --> 0:21:10.676
<v Speaker 2>So there's a whole bunch of folks who are dealing

0:21:10.716 --> 0:21:12.476
<v Speaker 2>with the same thing and trying to find like what

0:21:12.556 --> 0:21:15.596
<v Speaker 2>does that financing look like for this type of risk profile.

0:21:15.636 --> 0:21:17.356
<v Speaker 2>But there is money out there, and I do think

0:21:17.396 --> 0:21:20.196
<v Speaker 2>that again given the space that we're in and where

0:21:20.196 --> 0:21:23.316
<v Speaker 2>we are with with Ohio and the next projects, and

0:21:23.356 --> 0:21:25.796
<v Speaker 2>like you said, the contracts will be everything to show

0:21:25.836 --> 0:21:28.276
<v Speaker 2>that there is market poll for our technology.

0:21:28.476 --> 0:21:30.756
<v Speaker 1>What are you trying to figure out now? What's sort

0:21:30.796 --> 0:21:31.636
<v Speaker 1>of the frontier for you?

0:21:31.716 --> 0:21:33.196
<v Speaker 2>So what we're trying to figure out now is how

0:21:33.196 --> 0:21:37.116
<v Speaker 2>do we translate this technology that we are expanding within

0:21:37.156 --> 0:21:40.836
<v Speaker 2>this scrap recycling space with into the mining space. I

0:21:40.876 --> 0:21:44.596
<v Speaker 2>think the whole goal of in Cycle was to try

0:21:44.756 --> 0:21:48.076
<v Speaker 2>and you know, create the most robust supply chains that

0:21:48.116 --> 0:21:51.236
<v Speaker 2>we possibly can for these critical minerals and you know,

0:21:51.276 --> 0:21:54.356
<v Speaker 2>build a clean energy economy on the cleanest source of materials.

0:21:54.396 --> 0:21:56.156
<v Speaker 2>You know what really killed me at the end of

0:21:56.196 --> 0:21:58.036
<v Speaker 2>the day when I was starting about thinking the company

0:21:58.116 --> 0:22:00.916
<v Speaker 2>is like, gosh, we are building this like quote unquote

0:22:00.956 --> 0:22:03.596
<v Speaker 2>clean energy economy on a dirty source of material So

0:22:03.796 --> 0:22:06.276
<v Speaker 2>we continue to make the same problems in industry that

0:22:06.316 --> 0:22:08.156
<v Speaker 2>we have in the past, and so that was really

0:22:08.156 --> 0:22:10.156
<v Speaker 2>like the core of why I wanted to start and

0:22:10.236 --> 0:22:13.756
<v Speaker 2>cycle and the application of scrap recycling came from that.

0:22:13.876 --> 0:22:15.596
<v Speaker 2>And then the goal and the dream is really to

0:22:15.596 --> 0:22:17.236
<v Speaker 2>start to do this in the mining space, because that's

0:22:17.276 --> 0:22:20.516
<v Speaker 2>where you can have like massive, massive impact. I mean,

0:22:20.516 --> 0:22:24.076
<v Speaker 2>there's just orders of magnitude more material process per year

0:22:24.436 --> 0:22:27.676
<v Speaker 2>from mine than there is from recycling. And the goal

0:22:27.756 --> 0:22:33.716
<v Speaker 2>is to eventually recycle enough material to have it all

0:22:33.756 --> 0:22:37.196
<v Speaker 2>in circulation so that you can just solely rely on recycling.

0:22:37.556 --> 0:22:40.916
<v Speaker 1>Even if you are recycling everything, assuming people are switching

0:22:40.956 --> 0:22:44.196
<v Speaker 1>to evs over time, you'll still need a lot of

0:22:44.876 --> 0:22:48.436
<v Speaker 1>new lithium and nickel and cobalt out of the ground.

0:22:48.796 --> 0:22:51.076
<v Speaker 2>For in the next several decades. Absolutely, So that's where

0:22:51.116 --> 0:22:55.596
<v Speaker 2>I think mining gets this bad rap. But we have

0:22:55.676 --> 0:22:58.316
<v Speaker 2>to continue to mine materials to push forward in the

0:22:58.316 --> 0:23:00.716
<v Speaker 2>clean energy economy. We like you said, there is not

0:23:00.876 --> 0:23:02.956
<v Speaker 2>enough recycling material out there to be even if you

0:23:03.196 --> 0:23:05.716
<v Speaker 2>recycled one hundred percent of it, it does not get

0:23:05.756 --> 0:23:08.156
<v Speaker 2>you enough cobalt and nickel or lithium or whatever material

0:23:08.196 --> 0:23:10.356
<v Speaker 2>you're looking at to be able to meet demand. But

0:23:10.436 --> 0:23:12.676
<v Speaker 2>what we're really targeting is how do you turn on

0:23:13.276 --> 0:23:17.116
<v Speaker 2>these existing or bodies that haven't been developed yet. Right,

0:23:17.116 --> 0:23:19.796
<v Speaker 2>So there is cobalt, there is nickel, there is copper.

0:23:19.836 --> 0:23:22.076
<v Speaker 2>Here in the US, there's not a ton of mining

0:23:22.076 --> 0:23:25.876
<v Speaker 2>that happens because the refining piece is so environmentally damaging, right,

0:23:25.876 --> 0:23:27.196
<v Speaker 2>and people don't want in their backyards.

0:23:27.236 --> 0:23:27.876
<v Speaker 3>And I wouldn't either.

0:23:27.916 --> 0:23:30.556
<v Speaker 2>I understand the sort of the pain with that. But

0:23:30.596 --> 0:23:33.956
<v Speaker 2>if you can develop a technology that overcomes and doesn't

0:23:34.036 --> 0:23:37.116
<v Speaker 2>have all the waste that's associated with the traditional refining

0:23:37.196 --> 0:23:41.516
<v Speaker 2>and can have the same unit economics and justify opening

0:23:41.596 --> 0:23:43.836
<v Speaker 2>up these smaller minds because they are much much smaller

0:23:43.836 --> 0:23:46.756
<v Speaker 2>than what you'd see overseas. Right, So again the technology

0:23:46.836 --> 0:23:50.796
<v Speaker 2>is a mismatch for the source of materials. That's really

0:23:50.876 --> 0:23:54.196
<v Speaker 2>where this innovation can have a major, major impact of

0:23:54.276 --> 0:23:57.156
<v Speaker 2>like getting more of these minds online and getting the

0:23:57.276 --> 0:24:00.396
<v Speaker 2>US to have a mining industry. Again, it's really the

0:24:00.396 --> 0:24:02.316
<v Speaker 2>technology that I think will unlock that. And that's sort

0:24:02.316 --> 0:24:04.836
<v Speaker 2>of the new frontier front cycle is is I have

0:24:04.876 --> 0:24:07.396
<v Speaker 2>a team of folks sort of looking at what are

0:24:07.436 --> 0:24:11.116
<v Speaker 2>the right applications in mining for US, and you know,

0:24:11.196 --> 0:24:13.196
<v Speaker 2>does the technology need to look any different. So the

0:24:13.916 --> 0:24:17.196
<v Speaker 2>chemistry basis, the cells will work exactly the same, it's

0:24:17.276 --> 0:24:19.196
<v Speaker 2>just the system will likely have to look different.

0:24:19.316 --> 0:24:22.316
<v Speaker 1>It's refining either way. It's refining either way, refining now,

0:24:22.356 --> 0:24:26.156
<v Speaker 1>but instead of the input being black masks shredded up batteries,

0:24:26.236 --> 0:24:28.596
<v Speaker 1>it'll be a lot of dirt with a little.

0:24:28.356 --> 0:24:29.756
<v Speaker 3>Bit exactly exactly right.

0:24:30.436 --> 0:24:34.236
<v Speaker 1>So, there are a few other battery recycling companies in

0:24:34.276 --> 0:24:37.956
<v Speaker 1>the US, including one started by the guy who actually

0:24:37.956 --> 0:24:44.036
<v Speaker 1>started Tesla's aby, Redwood Materials. So tell me sort of

0:24:44.076 --> 0:24:47.996
<v Speaker 1>how how you fit in that broader context of the industry.

0:24:48.116 --> 0:24:50.636
<v Speaker 2>Yes, there's many companies. Redwood is one of the largest

0:24:50.636 --> 0:24:53.236
<v Speaker 2>companies who works in the battery cycling space, especially here

0:24:53.236 --> 0:24:57.676
<v Speaker 2>in the US, and their strategy is battery to battery, right.

0:24:57.716 --> 0:25:01.316
<v Speaker 2>They are solely battery recyclers who want to produce some

0:25:01.476 --> 0:25:04.796
<v Speaker 2>type of end battery product. Forether it's a chemical that

0:25:04.836 --> 0:25:07.716
<v Speaker 2>goes into batteries, or the cathode that goes to the batteries,

0:25:07.796 --> 0:25:11.196
<v Speaker 2>or the battery itself. So what they're trying to do

0:25:11.556 --> 0:25:14.356
<v Speaker 2>is really build out that entire supply chain from collecting

0:25:14.356 --> 0:25:17.836
<v Speaker 2>the batteries shredding those batteries into black mass, they want

0:25:17.876 --> 0:25:20.196
<v Speaker 2>to refine those materials, and then they want to be

0:25:20.236 --> 0:25:21.796
<v Speaker 2>a manufacturer, So they.

0:25:21.676 --> 0:25:24.316
<v Speaker 1>Want to be a company that buys old batteries and sells.

0:25:24.236 --> 0:25:27.556
<v Speaker 2>Exactly And I think that's very needed in the space.

0:25:27.676 --> 0:25:30.636
<v Speaker 2>Right there's a lot of steps in the supply chain

0:25:30.636 --> 0:25:31.516
<v Speaker 2>that need to be built.

0:25:31.516 --> 0:25:31.716
<v Speaker 3>Here.

0:25:31.956 --> 0:25:35.036
<v Speaker 2>What end cycle does is just the refining piece, and

0:25:35.116 --> 0:25:39.156
<v Speaker 2>so these companies are using very traditional technology from the

0:25:39.196 --> 0:25:42.756
<v Speaker 2>mining space, and so what we're providing and we partner

0:25:42.756 --> 0:25:44.916
<v Speaker 2>with a lot of these companies, is just a new

0:25:44.996 --> 0:25:48.116
<v Speaker 2>technology that is cheaper, more efficient to be able to

0:25:48.116 --> 0:25:49.036
<v Speaker 2>process these batteries.

0:25:49.356 --> 0:25:51.476
<v Speaker 1>Maybe that's like the wrong industry for me to be

0:25:51.476 --> 0:25:53.316
<v Speaker 1>thinking about. Is the right industry for me to be

0:25:53.316 --> 0:25:56.316
<v Speaker 1>thinking about? Refining? Is the right question? Who else is

0:25:56.356 --> 0:25:58.236
<v Speaker 1>trying to new and better ways.

0:25:58.076 --> 0:26:00.276
<v Speaker 2>Of There's not a ton of companies in the space.

0:26:00.276 --> 0:26:02.196
<v Speaker 2>There are a few of us who are solely focused

0:26:02.196 --> 0:26:04.476
<v Speaker 2>on the refining piece and who are trying to take

0:26:04.516 --> 0:26:07.156
<v Speaker 2>this modular approach. I would say we're one of the

0:26:07.156 --> 0:26:10.116
<v Speaker 2>only ones that takes more than batteries. There's a lot

0:26:10.116 --> 0:26:13.596
<v Speaker 2>of refining companies focused on black mass in particular. But

0:26:13.796 --> 0:26:17.356
<v Speaker 2>again we said, like, look, even if you're recycled one

0:26:17.396 --> 0:26:19.796
<v Speaker 2>hundred percent of batteries. You're not going to get enough nickel,

0:26:19.796 --> 0:26:22.676
<v Speaker 2>as we talked about earlier, or coboth or lithium. And

0:26:22.756 --> 0:26:24.676
<v Speaker 2>so from the beginning, you know, we tried to build

0:26:24.716 --> 0:26:28.316
<v Speaker 2>a technology that could be very flexible in the types

0:26:28.356 --> 0:26:30.796
<v Speaker 2>of materials we can put in on the front end.

0:26:31.156 --> 0:26:33.556
<v Speaker 2>And so I would say we're one of the only

0:26:33.556 --> 0:26:37.596
<v Speaker 2>companies in the space that diversified. But yeah, one or

0:26:37.636 --> 0:26:41.276
<v Speaker 2>two others in the US and Europe that are sort

0:26:41.316 --> 0:26:42.876
<v Speaker 2>of in the same exact space.

0:26:42.636 --> 0:26:45.196
<v Speaker 1>That we are. Why might you fail if you don't

0:26:45.236 --> 0:26:46.716
<v Speaker 1>make it? Why wouldn't you make it?

0:26:47.396 --> 0:26:48.916
<v Speaker 2>One of the reasons we couldn't make it is if

0:26:49.036 --> 0:26:54.156
<v Speaker 2>technology adoption right, if we start to have massive shifts

0:26:54.196 --> 0:26:57.516
<v Speaker 2>in the regulatory environment, which some folks in the climate

0:26:57.636 --> 0:27:00.076
<v Speaker 2>technology space, which some people would put us in, are

0:27:00.076 --> 0:27:02.796
<v Speaker 2>showing to feel that now the market really slows and

0:27:02.916 --> 0:27:05.596
<v Speaker 2>startups need to move at a very fast pace and

0:27:05.676 --> 0:27:08.356
<v Speaker 2>make a lot of progress because we have limited cash right,

0:27:08.436 --> 0:27:12.036
<v Speaker 2>because we're fun raising to survive until we build systems

0:27:12.036 --> 0:27:16.516
<v Speaker 2>that can generate consistent cash flow. And so when markets

0:27:16.556 --> 0:27:18.516
<v Speaker 2>slow down is when startups die.

0:27:18.836 --> 0:27:22.076
<v Speaker 1>And in your case, is that fundamentally the EV market like,

0:27:22.116 --> 0:27:24.916
<v Speaker 1>what is the key market you're thinking of when you say.

0:27:24.756 --> 0:27:27.796
<v Speaker 2>That, I think capital markets in general. Right, it makes

0:27:27.836 --> 0:27:29.276
<v Speaker 2>it hard for companies to fundraise.

0:27:29.396 --> 0:27:31.916
<v Speaker 1>So you mean, if like there's a recession, then venture

0:27:31.956 --> 0:27:33.996
<v Speaker 1>capital pulls back and people don't want to do hard

0:27:33.996 --> 0:27:37.276
<v Speaker 1>tech anymore. That's a more macro kind of hard tech winter.

0:27:37.716 --> 0:27:41.516
<v Speaker 2>Right. The macro environment can can really challenge startups being

0:27:41.556 --> 0:27:45.036
<v Speaker 2>able to fundraise and then market specific. Yeah, so if

0:27:45.556 --> 0:27:48.996
<v Speaker 2>for some reason, the current administration or whatever, a region

0:27:49.036 --> 0:27:51.036
<v Speaker 2>around the world you're working in, for some reason moves

0:27:51.036 --> 0:27:54.076
<v Speaker 2>away or stops prioritizing that industry.

0:27:54.116 --> 0:27:55.156
<v Speaker 3>EV's is an example.

0:27:55.436 --> 0:27:58.236
<v Speaker 2>Yes, it can really tank startups, right, because we looked

0:27:58.236 --> 0:27:59.676
<v Speaker 2>at that as a company, and I try to tell

0:27:59.716 --> 0:28:01.196
<v Speaker 2>this too as many folks who will listen who are

0:28:01.196 --> 0:28:03.036
<v Speaker 2>starting to build a company as well. It's like you

0:28:03.076 --> 0:28:06.076
<v Speaker 2>need to think about how you diversify from the very beginning.

0:28:06.236 --> 0:28:08.836
<v Speaker 2>And so that's why while we work within the battery

0:28:09.476 --> 0:28:12.276
<v Speaker 2>an EV space to recycle that black mass as we

0:28:12.276 --> 0:28:14.996
<v Speaker 2>talked about, or refine that black mass, we also refine

0:28:15.076 --> 0:28:18.716
<v Speaker 2>other scrap materials like catalysts from oil and gas, and

0:28:18.796 --> 0:28:21.556
<v Speaker 2>there's a whole slew of industrial scrap that has nothing

0:28:21.556 --> 0:28:23.676
<v Speaker 2>to do with the EV industry that has been around

0:28:23.716 --> 0:28:25.036
<v Speaker 2>for decades and will continue.

0:28:24.716 --> 0:28:25.596
<v Speaker 3>To be around for decades.

0:28:25.676 --> 0:28:29.276
<v Speaker 2>So if for some reason, the EV market tanks and

0:28:29.356 --> 0:28:31.876
<v Speaker 2>cobalt and nickel are no longer a desirable material, which

0:28:31.876 --> 0:28:33.836
<v Speaker 2>we don't expect to happen. You know, we have a

0:28:33.836 --> 0:28:36.756
<v Speaker 2>copper system, we have the rare system, so you know,

0:28:36.796 --> 0:28:40.036
<v Speaker 2>we try to diversify enough to be able to have

0:28:40.156 --> 0:28:42.556
<v Speaker 2>a business for whatever comes right, because we have no

0:28:42.596 --> 0:28:44.996
<v Speaker 2>idea what the next you know, eight years will look like, right,

0:28:45.036 --> 0:28:47.436
<v Speaker 2>ten years, twelve years, as we're you know, continuing to

0:28:47.436 --> 0:28:50.996
<v Speaker 2>scale the business in different directions. So I think macro

0:28:51.156 --> 0:28:55.396
<v Speaker 2>environment and when markets change or when startups can fail, what's.

0:28:55.196 --> 0:28:58.396
<v Speaker 1>The happy story for you? What's that you don't fail story?

0:28:58.516 --> 0:29:01.436
<v Speaker 2>I think encycle becomes the leader and the go to

0:29:01.516 --> 0:29:04.876
<v Speaker 2>technology for refining for both mining companies and recycling companies.

0:29:04.956 --> 0:29:08.596
<v Speaker 2>And I think there's a real and likely possibility that

0:29:08.756 --> 0:29:12.996
<v Speaker 2>happened because of just the way that you know, we

0:29:13.076 --> 0:29:14.796
<v Speaker 2>spend a lot of time trying to figure out what

0:29:14.796 --> 0:29:16.876
<v Speaker 2>are the real pain points in this industry, and I

0:29:16.916 --> 0:29:19.996
<v Speaker 2>feel like the team that I've assembled and the technology

0:29:20.036 --> 0:29:22.356
<v Speaker 2>that we've built solves those problems, and we're starting to

0:29:22.356 --> 0:29:24.396
<v Speaker 2>see that in real time, and so I think, you know,

0:29:24.476 --> 0:29:27.076
<v Speaker 2>I'm hoping in three to five to ten years and

0:29:27.116 --> 0:29:30.116
<v Speaker 2>cycle is the go to refining technology that you see

0:29:30.196 --> 0:29:32.516
<v Speaker 2>for critical minerals in the space, whether it's again on

0:29:32.556 --> 0:29:34.676
<v Speaker 2>the recycling or the mining side.

0:29:34.436 --> 0:29:35.076
<v Speaker 1>Of the world.

0:29:38.356 --> 0:29:49.036
<v Speaker 4>We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round.

0:29:49.356 --> 0:29:52.156
<v Speaker 1>Let's finish with the lightning round. What's your favorite element?

0:29:52.516 --> 0:29:54.076
<v Speaker 3>Oh, what's my favorite element?

0:29:54.436 --> 0:29:58.316
<v Speaker 2>I really like I love green and the nickel product

0:29:58.316 --> 0:30:00.276
<v Speaker 2>we produce as green, So I'll say nickel, even though

0:30:00.276 --> 0:30:00.796
<v Speaker 2>that's what I've been.

0:30:00.716 --> 0:30:01.636
<v Speaker 3>Talking about the whole time.

0:30:01.796 --> 0:30:03.076
<v Speaker 1>What kind of green? Like?

0:30:03.276 --> 0:30:04.236
<v Speaker 3>It is pretty green?

0:30:04.316 --> 0:30:07.436
<v Speaker 2>It's likeugh, I wish I could show a picture, but

0:30:07.476 --> 0:30:10.316
<v Speaker 2>it's like a almost like a bright emerald, I would say.

0:30:10.996 --> 0:30:13.876
<v Speaker 2>So it's actually like I love metal chemistry in general

0:30:13.916 --> 0:30:17.316
<v Speaker 2>because you just see such beautiful colors like cobalt blue.

0:30:17.556 --> 0:30:21.196
<v Speaker 2>Cobalt can be pink, nichols green. The mix of cobalts

0:30:21.196 --> 0:30:24.116
<v Speaker 2>in nickel is like a turquoise. So it's very beautiful

0:30:24.156 --> 0:30:24.996
<v Speaker 2>chemistry that happens.

0:30:25.156 --> 0:30:27.636
<v Speaker 1>Why do PhD students make good founders?

0:30:27.876 --> 0:30:31.636
<v Speaker 2>So I always make the joke that PhD students make

0:30:31.636 --> 0:30:34.996
<v Speaker 2>the best founders because we're used to being poor and

0:30:35.356 --> 0:30:37.476
<v Speaker 2>we're used to failing a lot, and you have to

0:30:37.596 --> 0:30:40.396
<v Speaker 2>fail and learn from failure as a founder, and that's

0:30:40.436 --> 0:30:43.076
<v Speaker 2>like a fundamental thing that you learn during your PhD,

0:30:43.116 --> 0:30:44.956
<v Speaker 2>or at least I learned during my PhD. And so

0:30:44.996 --> 0:30:47.236
<v Speaker 2>I think that's why a lot of us make good founders,

0:30:47.276 --> 0:30:48.356
<v Speaker 2>just because of those two things.

0:30:48.756 --> 0:30:51.436
<v Speaker 1>You know what I really want to talk about spin class.

0:30:52.796 --> 0:30:54.756
<v Speaker 1>Is it true that you became a spin instructor to

0:30:54.836 --> 0:30:55.956
<v Speaker 1>learn how to be a public speaker.

0:30:56.156 --> 0:30:58.876
<v Speaker 2>I did, and also to make money because again, as

0:30:58.876 --> 0:31:02.516
<v Speaker 2>a grad student, I was poor. I did it to

0:31:02.636 --> 0:31:05.316
<v Speaker 2>push myself out of my comfort zone, right. I really

0:31:05.676 --> 0:31:08.316
<v Speaker 2>really struggled with public speaking, like I would be shaking,

0:31:08.396 --> 0:31:09.516
<v Speaker 2>I sweating everywhere.

0:31:09.556 --> 0:31:10.516
<v Speaker 3>I mean, it was awful.

0:31:10.796 --> 0:31:12.636
<v Speaker 2>And I had to get over my fear of talking

0:31:12.636 --> 0:31:15.796
<v Speaker 2>in front of people because I loved communicating science in

0:31:15.796 --> 0:31:18.036
<v Speaker 2>a way that people understood. And so I said, okay,

0:31:18.276 --> 0:31:19.876
<v Speaker 2>I didn't want to go like I got advice to

0:31:19.916 --> 0:31:23.316
<v Speaker 2>go do like a theater class, you know, improv and

0:31:23.356 --> 0:31:25.236
<v Speaker 2>I was like, ah, that's not really my jam. I

0:31:25.276 --> 0:31:27.636
<v Speaker 2>like working out, and I said, oh, like, maybe I'll

0:31:27.636 --> 0:31:31.556
<v Speaker 2>try teaching spin class and I actually didn't use a

0:31:31.596 --> 0:31:35.236
<v Speaker 2>microphone for many, many years because I forced myself to

0:31:35.316 --> 0:31:38.556
<v Speaker 2>speak loudly, speak clearly, and to project my voice. And

0:31:38.596 --> 0:31:41.156
<v Speaker 2>so my husband, who was my boyfriend at the time

0:31:41.196 --> 0:31:43.716
<v Speaker 2>when I was at Duke teaching spin. If anyone's been

0:31:43.756 --> 0:31:46.036
<v Speaker 2>to the Duke gym, it's three floors and the spin

0:31:46.116 --> 0:31:48.036
<v Speaker 2>was on the very bottom floor and the entrance was

0:31:48.196 --> 0:31:50.516
<v Speaker 2>like three floors up, and he always left because he

0:31:50.516 --> 0:31:53.556
<v Speaker 2>could always hear me screaming in these spin classes. He's like, oh,

0:31:53.596 --> 0:31:56.516
<v Speaker 2>my girlfriend is teaching. I can hear her. But I

0:31:56.596 --> 0:32:00.156
<v Speaker 2>really tried to do that and it helped, I think,

0:32:00.596 --> 0:32:04.036
<v Speaker 2>prepare me for being a CEO and a founder, because

0:32:05.076 --> 0:32:06.716
<v Speaker 2>you had to be a leader in those rooms. You

0:32:06.756 --> 0:32:09.636
<v Speaker 2>had to you know, inspire and keep people most motivated.

0:32:09.676 --> 0:32:12.836
<v Speaker 2>And those are the same skills that you need in

0:32:12.876 --> 0:32:16.236
<v Speaker 2>this position, especially when you're a small team and going

0:32:16.276 --> 0:32:18.996
<v Speaker 2>through you know, really difficult things. And still, I mean,

0:32:18.996 --> 0:32:21.276
<v Speaker 2>we're eight years in and there's still challenges every single day.

0:32:21.556 --> 0:32:24.316
<v Speaker 2>And so I think that's mostly what I learned from

0:32:24.316 --> 0:32:27.476
<v Speaker 2>being as man intactor is just I love the motivational

0:32:27.516 --> 0:32:30.356
<v Speaker 2>piece of it. It helped me with public speaking, and

0:32:31.156 --> 0:32:33.836
<v Speaker 2>you just you get to learn a different side of people, right,

0:32:33.956 --> 0:32:36.516
<v Speaker 2>Like you get to be there in moments where they're

0:32:36.716 --> 0:32:39.036
<v Speaker 2>not doing well, in moments when they're feeling great about themselves,

0:32:39.036 --> 0:32:42.556
<v Speaker 2>and I thought that was very rewarding and just helping them,

0:32:42.836 --> 0:32:44.276
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's like your me time in the day.

0:32:44.276 --> 0:32:46.236
<v Speaker 2>That's how I think about exercising, and so I loved

0:32:46.236 --> 0:32:47.876
<v Speaker 2>being part of that in their day.

0:32:48.196 --> 0:32:51.596
<v Speaker 1>Have you ever faked resistance? Yes? Of course does everybody.

0:32:51.676 --> 0:32:53.916
<v Speaker 3>I don't know if everyone does, But when you're teaching

0:32:53.916 --> 0:32:54.756
<v Speaker 3>for an hour, you know.

0:32:54.716 --> 0:32:59.156
<v Speaker 1>What, that makes me feel better. I have a peloton

0:32:59.676 --> 0:33:03.156
<v Speaker 1>and I'm in reasonably good shape, but like I fall

0:33:03.196 --> 0:33:05.556
<v Speaker 1>apart when I do, like an interval ride, and when

0:33:05.596 --> 0:33:08.876
<v Speaker 1>the instructor is not falling apart, I'm like, either she's

0:33:08.916 --> 0:33:11.676
<v Speaker 1>in incredible shape, or she's faking it or both.

0:33:11.756 --> 0:33:14.196
<v Speaker 2>I guess yes, you can usually tell when people are

0:33:14.276 --> 0:33:16.876
<v Speaker 2>not faking it because it is a skill and you're

0:33:16.956 --> 0:33:19.716
<v Speaker 2>just an incredible shape, and it's shape that you quickly

0:33:19.716 --> 0:33:23.156
<v Speaker 2>fall out of, like talking at that volume and projecting

0:33:23.156 --> 0:33:26.436
<v Speaker 2>your voice while you're breathing so heavily and exercising. It's

0:33:26.436 --> 0:33:27.836
<v Speaker 2>something that you have to learn how to do, and

0:33:27.836 --> 0:33:30.716
<v Speaker 2>so you can hear in people's voices when they're really working,

0:33:30.956 --> 0:33:34.236
<v Speaker 2>because it's hard to start to not like be breathing

0:33:34.236 --> 0:33:35.676
<v Speaker 2>into the microphone so heavily.

0:33:36.196 --> 0:33:38.836
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, well that's actually as I'm sure you know

0:33:38.876 --> 0:33:41.236
<v Speaker 1>when they talk about like zone two training, which is

0:33:41.236 --> 0:33:44.556
<v Speaker 1>just like chill cardio. The classic sort of heuristic is

0:33:44.636 --> 0:33:46.836
<v Speaker 1>when you can carry on a conversation, right, and so

0:33:47.276 --> 0:33:49.916
<v Speaker 1>if you're doing a real interval, you shouldn't be able

0:33:49.956 --> 0:33:52.116
<v Speaker 1>to talk normally, you should not.

0:33:52.316 --> 0:33:55.556
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, at least when I was an instructor. Unfortunately, not anymore,

0:33:55.716 --> 0:33:58.196
<v Speaker 2>or at least not right now. Yeah, you some like

0:33:58.276 --> 0:34:00.356
<v Speaker 2>I tried my best because I always say like, I'm

0:34:00.396 --> 0:34:02.156
<v Speaker 2>doing the same resistance to you, and I would be

0:34:02.196 --> 0:34:04.076
<v Speaker 2>truthful in that, like if I was really doing that resistance,

0:34:04.076 --> 0:34:05.916
<v Speaker 2>I would say that to try to motivate people. But

0:34:05.956 --> 0:34:08.236
<v Speaker 2>there are some points where like I had taught five

0:34:08.276 --> 0:34:09.716
<v Speaker 2>classes a week and I was like, I can't do it.

0:34:09.756 --> 0:34:11.796
<v Speaker 2>I can't do it. I just have to be at

0:34:11.796 --> 0:34:13.836
<v Speaker 2>a lower resistance and even if I want to climb.

0:34:14.076 --> 0:34:19.836
<v Speaker 1>Did you have like a favorite cliche motivational phrase as

0:34:19.916 --> 0:34:21.036
<v Speaker 1>an instructor.

0:34:21.476 --> 0:34:24.116
<v Speaker 2>Yes, you can do anything for a minute. You can

0:34:24.156 --> 0:34:26.836
<v Speaker 2>literally do anything for a minute, and I used to

0:34:26.836 --> 0:34:28.756
<v Speaker 2>say that. I used to scream that at people, like

0:34:28.756 --> 0:34:30.396
<v Speaker 2>we're going up a hill. You can do anything for

0:34:30.436 --> 0:34:32.836
<v Speaker 2>a minute. Just keep going, don't psyche yourself out.

0:34:32.916 --> 0:34:33.516
<v Speaker 3>You can do this.

0:34:33.716 --> 0:34:35.756
<v Speaker 2>And so I say that even to myself now whenever

0:34:35.756 --> 0:34:43.356
<v Speaker 2>I'm doing something and you can do anything for a minute.

0:34:44.876 --> 0:34:48.476
<v Speaker 1>Megan O'Connor is the co founder and CEO of NTH Cycle.

0:34:48.956 --> 0:34:52.276
<v Speaker 1>Please email us at problem at pushkin dot fm. We

0:34:52.316 --> 0:34:56.036
<v Speaker 1>are always looking for new guests for the show. Today's

0:34:56.076 --> 0:34:59.916
<v Speaker 1>show was produced by Trinamnino and Gabriel Hunter Chang. It

0:35:00.036 --> 0:35:03.876
<v Speaker 1>was edited by Alexander Garrettson and engineered by Sarah Bruguheer.

0:35:04.236 --> 0:35:06.396
<v Speaker 1>I'm Jacob Goldstein and we'll be back next week with

0:35:06.476 --> 0:35:13.756
<v Speaker 1>another episode of What's Your Problem.