1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:24,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. So the world is basically just starting this massive 2 00:00:24,836 --> 00:00:29,996 Speaker 1: shift from fossil fuels to a combination of renewable energy 3 00:00:30,076 --> 00:00:33,516 Speaker 1: and battery storage. This is good news. I hope it 4 00:00:33,556 --> 00:00:36,436 Speaker 1: happens as quickly as possible, but it is going to 5 00:00:36,436 --> 00:00:41,156 Speaker 1: be a massive, complicated, hard transition. One of the many 6 00:00:41,196 --> 00:00:45,636 Speaker 1: ways in which it is complicated and hard is building 7 00:00:45,796 --> 00:00:48,676 Speaker 1: and dealing with all those batteries we're going to need. 8 00:00:49,356 --> 00:00:52,596 Speaker 1: At a basic level, takes a lot of metal, a 9 00:00:52,636 --> 00:00:54,956 Speaker 1: lot of nickel, a lot of cobalt, just to make 10 00:00:55,036 --> 00:00:58,156 Speaker 1: all the batteries we're going to need, And mining and 11 00:00:58,236 --> 00:01:02,316 Speaker 1: refining those metals is a thing that basically doesn't happen 12 00:01:02,556 --> 00:01:05,276 Speaker 1: in the US or in Europe anymore, at least doesn't 13 00:01:05,276 --> 00:01:09,676 Speaker 1: happen at any significant scale, and for understandable reasons. Right, 14 00:01:09,796 --> 00:01:14,116 Speaker 1: this is an intense, often dirty, industrial process, and so 15 00:01:14,316 --> 00:01:17,876 Speaker 1: as you might guess, a huge share of industrial refining 16 00:01:17,876 --> 00:01:20,876 Speaker 1: of these kinds of metals now happens in China. And 17 00:01:20,996 --> 00:01:23,356 Speaker 1: on top of getting the metal out of the ground 18 00:01:23,396 --> 00:01:26,356 Speaker 1: and refined in the first place, there's a second complication. 19 00:01:27,036 --> 00:01:29,796 Speaker 1: Batteries wear out. What do we do with all that 20 00:01:29,916 --> 00:01:33,156 Speaker 1: potentially useful metal once a battery has finished its useful 21 00:01:33,196 --> 00:01:36,716 Speaker 1: life as a battery. So just to sum up to recap, 22 00:01:37,196 --> 00:01:40,036 Speaker 1: the world needs a huge new supply of batteries, but 23 00:01:40,836 --> 00:01:43,996 Speaker 1: especially in the US and Europe, it's not clear how 24 00:01:44,036 --> 00:01:46,196 Speaker 1: we can get the metal we need to make all 25 00:01:46,196 --> 00:01:49,316 Speaker 1: those batteries, and it's also not clear what we should 26 00:01:49,316 --> 00:01:58,236 Speaker 1: do with those batteries when they wear out. I'm Jacob 27 00:01:58,276 --> 00:02:00,436 Speaker 1: Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the show where 28 00:02:00,476 --> 00:02:03,236 Speaker 1: I talk to people who are trying to make technological progress. 29 00:02:03,756 --> 00:02:07,236 Speaker 1: My guest today is Megan O'Connor. She's the co founder 30 00:02:07,276 --> 00:02:10,476 Speaker 1: and CEO of a company called en Cycle, like the 31 00:02:10,556 --> 00:02:15,156 Speaker 1: letter in and then thh and then cycle. Megan's problem 32 00:02:15,276 --> 00:02:18,356 Speaker 1: is this, can you come up with an efficient system 33 00:02:18,476 --> 00:02:20,876 Speaker 1: that can both refine the raw metals we need for 34 00:02:20,916 --> 00:02:25,356 Speaker 1: batteries and recycle old batteries to extract that metal so 35 00:02:25,396 --> 00:02:29,036 Speaker 1: it can be used again in new batteries. Megan told 36 00:02:29,036 --> 00:02:31,276 Speaker 1: me that she first had the idea for the company 37 00:02:31,436 --> 00:02:35,156 Speaker 1: when she was getting her PhD in environmental engineering. Her 38 00:02:35,156 --> 00:02:38,476 Speaker 1: PhD is from Duke, but the idea actually came out 39 00:02:38,516 --> 00:02:41,036 Speaker 1: of this meeting she went to at Yale and it 40 00:02:41,116 --> 00:02:44,196 Speaker 1: was weirdly hard for her to get in the door 41 00:02:44,556 --> 00:02:45,276 Speaker 1: of that meeting. 42 00:02:46,276 --> 00:02:48,556 Speaker 2: One of the professors there was a head of the 43 00:02:48,596 --> 00:02:52,036 Speaker 2: Green Chemistry and Green Engineering school, and he wanted to 44 00:02:52,076 --> 00:02:54,916 Speaker 2: bring industry in to help really direct the center's research 45 00:02:55,276 --> 00:02:56,476 Speaker 2: to what industry cares about. 46 00:02:56,556 --> 00:02:56,636 Speaker 1: Right. 47 00:02:56,716 --> 00:02:58,156 Speaker 2: So that's one of the reasons why I went to 48 00:02:58,156 --> 00:03:00,436 Speaker 2: grad school, is like work on something that industry really 49 00:03:00,436 --> 00:03:03,276 Speaker 2: cares about and that has a real problem. And I 50 00:03:03,316 --> 00:03:06,036 Speaker 2: overheard him talking about this green Electronic summit in the 51 00:03:06,036 --> 00:03:09,116 Speaker 2: hallway a couple weeks before, and it was completely clear 52 00:03:09,316 --> 00:03:11,436 Speaker 2: off to students. So it was supposed to be like 53 00:03:11,476 --> 00:03:13,956 Speaker 2: a closed door meeting with these like you know, large 54 00:03:13,996 --> 00:03:19,236 Speaker 2: consumer electronic OEMs, so like Apple, Dell, Intel, folks who 55 00:03:19,316 --> 00:03:22,356 Speaker 2: make our cell phones and laptops and things. And I 56 00:03:22,396 --> 00:03:24,556 Speaker 2: really wanted to be in this room even though it 57 00:03:24,556 --> 00:03:26,916 Speaker 2: was closed off to students and other faculty. So what 58 00:03:26,956 --> 00:03:29,556 Speaker 2: I had to do is banged down this professor's door 59 00:03:29,556 --> 00:03:32,076 Speaker 2: for three weeks straight, and I think he finally just 60 00:03:32,116 --> 00:03:34,396 Speaker 2: gave in and staid, Okay. 61 00:03:34,236 --> 00:03:36,516 Speaker 1: Badgering is an underrated strategy. 62 00:03:37,596 --> 00:03:39,956 Speaker 2: I'm very determined, which I think you'll hear a lot 63 00:03:39,956 --> 00:03:42,636 Speaker 2: of entrepreneurs say. But I really wanted me in this meeting, 64 00:03:42,716 --> 00:03:45,116 Speaker 2: say like, okay, does industry actually care about any of 65 00:03:45,116 --> 00:03:47,076 Speaker 2: this that I've been researching? Right, And so he finally 66 00:03:47,156 --> 00:03:48,396 Speaker 2: let me in as a scribe, said all right, I 67 00:03:48,396 --> 00:03:49,996 Speaker 2: need somebody to take notes. Come in and take notes 68 00:03:49,996 --> 00:03:53,556 Speaker 2: for nine hours. So I sat there and over and 69 00:03:53,596 --> 00:03:55,876 Speaker 2: over and over again in this in this summit, every 70 00:03:55,916 --> 00:04:00,236 Speaker 2: single manufacturing company in there said the same two things. One, 71 00:04:00,516 --> 00:04:02,556 Speaker 2: they have no idea what At the time this was 72 00:04:02,556 --> 00:04:03,996 Speaker 2: ten years ago, they didn't know what to do with 73 00:04:03,996 --> 00:04:05,556 Speaker 2: their waste. Right. They said, look, we're all trying to 74 00:04:05,596 --> 00:04:09,956 Speaker 2: be leaders in transparency, in the supply chains, sustainability, right, 75 00:04:09,996 --> 00:04:12,036 Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it. They wanted to be 76 00:04:12,116 --> 00:04:15,556 Speaker 2: leaders in that space for their consumers, but they don't 77 00:04:15,596 --> 00:04:17,436 Speaker 2: know and didn't know how they were going to deal 78 00:04:17,476 --> 00:04:19,636 Speaker 2: with the growing waste management problem. 79 00:04:19,716 --> 00:04:19,836 Speaker 1: Right. 80 00:04:19,876 --> 00:04:22,916 Speaker 2: So every time you buy a new cell phone or 81 00:04:22,956 --> 00:04:24,796 Speaker 2: every time you buy a new smart watch, right, where 82 00:04:24,836 --> 00:04:26,876 Speaker 2: does the where do those things end up? And so 83 00:04:26,916 --> 00:04:30,596 Speaker 2: they said, look, e waste, right, electronics waste is already 84 00:04:30,596 --> 00:04:32,636 Speaker 2: a massive problem around the world, and that we don't 85 00:04:32,676 --> 00:04:36,476 Speaker 2: really know how to solve. Imagine when these clean energy 86 00:04:36,756 --> 00:04:40,276 Speaker 2: technologies like electric vehicles, like wind turbines, like solar panels 87 00:04:40,276 --> 00:04:44,236 Speaker 2: start to come offline, those are considered electronics waste. Right, 88 00:04:44,236 --> 00:04:46,436 Speaker 2: it's just gonna it's going to exacerbate. 89 00:04:46,356 --> 00:04:49,356 Speaker 1: Orders of magnet orders of magnitude larger, right than a 90 00:04:49,396 --> 00:04:52,156 Speaker 1: cell phone electric car is just a driving battery as 91 00:04:52,196 --> 00:04:53,036 Speaker 1: a bat exactly. 92 00:04:53,076 --> 00:04:54,476 Speaker 2: And so what are we going to do with all 93 00:04:54,516 --> 00:04:56,156 Speaker 2: this waste once we start generating it? 94 00:04:56,236 --> 00:04:56,356 Speaker 1: Right? 95 00:04:56,396 --> 00:04:58,236 Speaker 2: As these companies they've said, you know, we want to 96 00:04:58,716 --> 00:05:00,916 Speaker 2: try to figure out how to take responsibility for this 97 00:05:01,396 --> 00:05:02,876 Speaker 2: in our supply chains, but we don't know how to 98 00:05:02,916 --> 00:05:04,636 Speaker 2: do that. And then the second round they all said, 99 00:05:04,676 --> 00:05:06,796 Speaker 2: is we don't know what our supply chains are going 100 00:05:06,836 --> 00:05:09,436 Speaker 2: to look like. Right again, a cell phone, you is 101 00:05:09,476 --> 00:05:12,916 Speaker 2: a couple of grams of cobalts, whereas an EV uses 102 00:05:13,036 --> 00:05:15,716 Speaker 2: orders of magnitude more metal in their batteries. And so 103 00:05:16,276 --> 00:05:18,876 Speaker 2: you think about we're already having supply chain issues and 104 00:05:18,956 --> 00:05:22,636 Speaker 2: accessing you know, that cobalt. What does that look like 105 00:05:23,076 --> 00:05:26,796 Speaker 2: when we start to hopefully manufacture and push out all 106 00:05:26,836 --> 00:05:29,156 Speaker 2: these much larger technologies. 107 00:05:28,596 --> 00:05:30,596 Speaker 1: Right, millions of election millions of electric. 108 00:05:30,356 --> 00:05:32,116 Speaker 2: Vehicles hopefully, And then you add the winterbines, and then 109 00:05:32,116 --> 00:05:34,196 Speaker 2: you add the solar panels, right, the same the same 110 00:05:34,196 --> 00:05:37,036 Speaker 2: things I said before, and it just the supply chains 111 00:05:37,076 --> 00:05:38,756 Speaker 2: just become bigger and bigger problem. 112 00:05:38,796 --> 00:05:39,676 Speaker 3: And so I walked to that. 113 00:05:39,636 --> 00:05:43,596 Speaker 2: Meeting feeling a like a little angry that like, how 114 00:05:43,596 --> 00:05:46,836 Speaker 2: are we barreling down this path again generating all this 115 00:05:46,956 --> 00:05:49,036 Speaker 2: waste when we have no way of dealing with it, 116 00:05:49,316 --> 00:05:51,476 Speaker 2: but then also feeling a little inspired and said, Okay, 117 00:05:51,836 --> 00:05:54,196 Speaker 2: we have all this waste. Is there a way and 118 00:05:54,276 --> 00:05:56,476 Speaker 2: is there a technology that exists out there to be 119 00:05:56,476 --> 00:05:58,716 Speaker 2: able to take that waste and turn it back into 120 00:05:58,756 --> 00:06:01,556 Speaker 2: metals so you can have a secondary supply of these 121 00:06:02,476 --> 00:06:05,196 Speaker 2: materials and sort of kill tubers with one stone. 122 00:06:05,476 --> 00:06:08,036 Speaker 1: Okay, So you have this this kind of big idea, 123 00:06:08,356 --> 00:06:11,436 Speaker 1: you talk about it with your advisor, a professor named 124 00:06:11,476 --> 00:06:15,396 Speaker 1: desire Plato, right, And then, as I understand it, you 125 00:06:15,516 --> 00:06:18,316 Speaker 1: and your advisor you think of this technology that a 126 00:06:18,356 --> 00:06:22,436 Speaker 1: Harvard professor had been working on, but not in this context, right, 127 00:06:22,476 --> 00:06:26,396 Speaker 1: working on for water filtration. So you go to this professor, 128 00:06:26,396 --> 00:06:28,756 Speaker 1: as I understand the story, his name is Chad Vesidas, 129 00:06:29,076 --> 00:06:31,356 Speaker 1: and is it right? Like you basically ask him if 130 00:06:31,396 --> 00:06:35,396 Speaker 1: you can try and apply his technique to recycle batteries 131 00:06:35,396 --> 00:06:38,916 Speaker 1: to refine metal. And then the three of you wind 132 00:06:38,956 --> 00:06:40,676 Speaker 1: up starting the company together. Is that right? 133 00:06:40,836 --> 00:06:40,996 Speaker 3: Right? 134 00:06:41,036 --> 00:06:43,276 Speaker 2: So I approached Chad and I said, hey, you don't 135 00:06:43,316 --> 00:06:45,876 Speaker 2: know me, but you know Desi a little bit, and 136 00:06:46,196 --> 00:06:48,236 Speaker 2: can I use your technology for this application? 137 00:06:48,756 --> 00:06:49,436 Speaker 3: He said yes. 138 00:06:49,756 --> 00:06:51,636 Speaker 2: This was my third year of my PhD, so for 139 00:06:51,676 --> 00:06:54,156 Speaker 2: folks out there, it's typically a five to six year program, 140 00:06:54,236 --> 00:06:55,996 Speaker 2: so I was already halfway through. So it was a 141 00:06:56,036 --> 00:06:58,596 Speaker 2: little crazy of me to switch my project that far in. 142 00:06:58,676 --> 00:07:01,556 Speaker 2: But I felt very strongly that, you know, there there 143 00:07:01,636 --> 00:07:03,956 Speaker 2: was a solution that was needed here, and I went 144 00:07:03,956 --> 00:07:06,316 Speaker 2: to grad school to try and find a problem and 145 00:07:06,396 --> 00:07:09,556 Speaker 2: provide a technology solution. So I sort of dove headfirst 146 00:07:09,556 --> 00:07:11,876 Speaker 2: into it. So for the next three years, Chad, Desree 147 00:07:11,876 --> 00:07:14,436 Speaker 2: and I, you know, continue to work on this technology together, 148 00:07:14,916 --> 00:07:16,956 Speaker 2: and by the end of my PhD, it worked so 149 00:07:16,996 --> 00:07:19,716 Speaker 2: well that I felt if I put the right team together, 150 00:07:19,996 --> 00:07:22,196 Speaker 2: I think this technology could really change the world. They 151 00:07:22,236 --> 00:07:25,636 Speaker 2: could change the way that we refine metal. This industry 152 00:07:25,676 --> 00:07:29,676 Speaker 2: hasn't had any type of technological change in decades, right, 153 00:07:29,756 --> 00:07:31,556 Speaker 2: Like I'm talking close to one hundred years, right, This 154 00:07:31,596 --> 00:07:34,276 Speaker 2: has been the same technology we've seen and it's clearly 155 00:07:34,276 --> 00:07:36,556 Speaker 2: not working here in the US. It hasn't been adopted here. 156 00:07:36,876 --> 00:07:39,636 Speaker 2: So this is where technology can really have an impact 157 00:07:39,836 --> 00:07:41,836 Speaker 2: for the clean energy economy. 158 00:07:42,116 --> 00:07:43,756 Speaker 1: I mean when you say the technology, I mean you 159 00:07:43,796 --> 00:07:48,796 Speaker 1: mean specifically refining metals. Basically, Right, you've got metals, whether 160 00:07:48,836 --> 00:07:50,556 Speaker 1: it's recycling and they're mixed up with a bunch of 161 00:07:50,596 --> 00:07:52,316 Speaker 1: other stuff, or they're coming out of the ground and 162 00:07:52,356 --> 00:07:53,956 Speaker 1: they're mixed up with a bunch of other stuff. The 163 00:07:53,956 --> 00:07:57,636 Speaker 1: fundamental thing is, how do you separate out the metal 164 00:07:57,676 --> 00:08:00,036 Speaker 1: you want, whatever, the lithium, the nickel, the cobalt. That's 165 00:08:00,076 --> 00:08:00,516 Speaker 1: the funny thing. 166 00:08:00,596 --> 00:08:03,596 Speaker 2: Exactly take from those sources, whether it's out of the 167 00:08:03,596 --> 00:08:06,756 Speaker 2: ground or out of some recycled end of life material, 168 00:08:06,796 --> 00:08:09,116 Speaker 2: and turn it back into basically something that's usable. Again, 169 00:08:09,196 --> 00:08:11,316 Speaker 2: that's what the chemical refining step does. 170 00:08:12,036 --> 00:08:14,236 Speaker 1: Why hadn't refining changed for one hundred years. 171 00:08:15,436 --> 00:08:17,556 Speaker 2: Most of the refining that's sent around the world is 172 00:08:17,676 --> 00:08:20,396 Speaker 2: in the mining industry, right, So these mining companies typically 173 00:08:20,396 --> 00:08:23,796 Speaker 2: will develop an asset, a long life asset, and an 174 00:08:23,836 --> 00:08:26,916 Speaker 2: asset meaning just the mine itself where they dig the 175 00:08:26,956 --> 00:08:28,876 Speaker 2: dirt and the metals out of the ground, and then 176 00:08:28,916 --> 00:08:32,796 Speaker 2: they typically stand the refinery up literally right next door. 177 00:08:32,836 --> 00:08:32,956 Speaker 1: Right. 178 00:08:33,116 --> 00:08:35,796 Speaker 2: They want to eliminate as much of that transportation as 179 00:08:35,796 --> 00:08:40,036 Speaker 2: possible because these metals are in such low concentration. It's 180 00:08:40,076 --> 00:08:41,796 Speaker 2: a lot of dirt to a little bit of metal, right. 181 00:08:41,996 --> 00:08:43,876 Speaker 1: You don't want to move one hundred pounds of dirt 182 00:08:43,876 --> 00:08:47,276 Speaker 1: a thousand miles to get one pound of exactly. 183 00:08:47,356 --> 00:08:53,076 Speaker 2: So the refining industry was really centered around this mining space. 184 00:08:53,196 --> 00:08:56,156 Speaker 2: And so it was only when folks really started to 185 00:08:56,196 --> 00:08:58,756 Speaker 2: look at the recycling space, and I talk battery recycling 186 00:08:58,796 --> 00:09:02,876 Speaker 2: specifically right now, it was like, Okay, you have this big, 187 00:09:03,276 --> 00:09:07,356 Speaker 2: multi billion dollar refinery where you process eighty thousand tons 188 00:09:07,396 --> 00:09:09,996 Speaker 2: of material per year, which is massive, and you have 189 00:09:10,316 --> 00:09:13,996 Speaker 2: a recycling industry where a again you don't have a 190 00:09:14,036 --> 00:09:16,956 Speaker 2: magic pile of eighty thousand tons of batteries right in 191 00:09:17,076 --> 00:09:21,916 Speaker 2: one place. And batteries are changing, right, There's different types 192 00:09:21,956 --> 00:09:24,876 Speaker 2: of batteries from different companies, they have different chemistries, which 193 00:09:24,916 --> 00:09:27,716 Speaker 2: just means it makes it really hard to recycle them 194 00:09:27,716 --> 00:09:31,676 Speaker 2: all in this one facility. And so just that model, 195 00:09:31,756 --> 00:09:32,756 Speaker 2: you know, doesn't match. 196 00:09:32,876 --> 00:09:33,036 Speaker 3: Right. 197 00:09:33,116 --> 00:09:36,396 Speaker 2: Some of those mining refineries will take a little bit 198 00:09:36,436 --> 00:09:39,476 Speaker 2: of recycled material, but again they're all overseas, right, So 199 00:09:39,516 --> 00:09:41,556 Speaker 2: then you come to that national security challenge and so. 200 00:09:41,796 --> 00:09:44,596 Speaker 1: And so the setting aside the overseas part that the 201 00:09:44,636 --> 00:09:49,436 Speaker 1: fundamental problem is they're built to process a huge amount 202 00:09:49,476 --> 00:09:53,676 Speaker 1: of some very homogeneous and consistent input for a long time. 203 00:09:53,876 --> 00:09:56,116 Speaker 1: Like that's the economic model, that's correct, and that's the 204 00:09:56,156 --> 00:09:57,236 Speaker 1: fundamental problem. 205 00:09:57,756 --> 00:09:59,116 Speaker 3: That's the fundamental problem. 206 00:09:59,356 --> 00:10:00,236 Speaker 1: So how do you do it? 207 00:10:00,716 --> 00:10:04,036 Speaker 2: We have developed a new technology we call electro extraction, 208 00:10:04,236 --> 00:10:06,716 Speaker 2: and so it's a it's a fancy word to say 209 00:10:07,076 --> 00:10:09,916 Speaker 2: that we use the same chemicals that you see in 210 00:10:09,996 --> 00:10:13,356 Speaker 2: refining today in those massive facilities I talked about, and 211 00:10:13,436 --> 00:10:16,516 Speaker 2: those are produced with fossil energy, so they're produced fossil 212 00:10:16,596 --> 00:10:19,436 Speaker 2: energy and then trucked to those sites. What we figured 213 00:10:19,436 --> 00:10:23,196 Speaker 2: out is to overcome the barrier of having to build 214 00:10:23,236 --> 00:10:28,116 Speaker 2: this massive facility, we could create a smaller, modular facility 215 00:10:28,156 --> 00:10:31,316 Speaker 2: to be able to process the smaller volumes of recycle 216 00:10:31,396 --> 00:10:34,676 Speaker 2: material that we have around the Western world by producing 217 00:10:34,716 --> 00:10:37,276 Speaker 2: the same chemicals with electricity, so we can produce them 218 00:10:37,276 --> 00:10:39,476 Speaker 2: when we need them, where we need them, and only 219 00:10:39,516 --> 00:10:42,036 Speaker 2: as much as we need them. And so that gives 220 00:10:42,076 --> 00:10:44,556 Speaker 2: us the efficiencies that we needed both from a cost 221 00:10:44,596 --> 00:10:47,836 Speaker 2: and energy perspective to be able to really scale down 222 00:10:47,956 --> 00:10:50,436 Speaker 2: that process instead of having to do eighty thousand tons 223 00:10:51,076 --> 00:10:55,836 Speaker 2: to justify this project per year, we only need to 224 00:10:55,876 --> 00:10:59,076 Speaker 2: do a minimum of two to three thousand tons per year. 225 00:10:59,436 --> 00:11:02,076 Speaker 2: So that allows us to work with all these different 226 00:11:02,076 --> 00:11:05,476 Speaker 2: recycling companies. And whether it's one type of battery or 227 00:11:06,196 --> 00:11:09,436 Speaker 2: nickel catalyst material, right, we process all different times types 228 00:11:09,476 --> 00:11:13,356 Speaker 2: of sort of scrap or end of life materials. And 229 00:11:13,556 --> 00:11:17,716 Speaker 2: we've overcome some big barriers to just getting refining capacity here, 230 00:11:17,956 --> 00:11:19,716 Speaker 2: both in the US and in Europe. 231 00:11:19,996 --> 00:11:22,156 Speaker 1: And is it right that you just turned on your 232 00:11:22,196 --> 00:11:27,156 Speaker 1: first real facility last second half of last year in Ohio. 233 00:11:27,556 --> 00:11:30,116 Speaker 2: That's right, and we just went live in September twenty 234 00:11:30,116 --> 00:11:32,396 Speaker 2: twenty four, so we're very excited. We have about eight 235 00:11:32,436 --> 00:11:34,556 Speaker 2: months of operations und our belt now. 236 00:11:34,716 --> 00:11:37,436 Speaker 1: So tell me about what's happening in Ohio. 237 00:11:37,796 --> 00:11:40,116 Speaker 2: In Ohio, So it's our refining system, which we call 238 00:11:40,196 --> 00:11:43,716 Speaker 2: the Oyster for shorts, and so our facility, it's a 239 00:11:43,716 --> 00:11:47,076 Speaker 2: big industrial warehouse. And basically what my system looks like, 240 00:11:47,596 --> 00:11:49,876 Speaker 2: I like to think of it as a deck of cards. 241 00:11:49,956 --> 00:11:50,076 Speaker 1: Right. 242 00:11:50,156 --> 00:11:53,956 Speaker 2: So our electrochemical filters, as I mentioned before, think of 243 00:11:53,996 --> 00:11:57,476 Speaker 2: their like big plastic cards. So they're one meter wide, 244 00:11:57,676 --> 00:11:59,956 Speaker 2: one meter tall, and I have one hundred and forty 245 00:11:59,996 --> 00:12:02,356 Speaker 2: of those sort of stacked in parallels to think of 246 00:12:02,396 --> 00:12:05,316 Speaker 2: like a sideways deck of cards. And so inside those 247 00:12:05,356 --> 00:12:08,036 Speaker 2: cells is where I pull out the metals like the 248 00:12:08,116 --> 00:12:11,316 Speaker 2: nickel and the cobalt that we want back out for manufacturers. 249 00:12:11,316 --> 00:12:14,316 Speaker 2: So when I get these shredded battery materials in, if 250 00:12:14,316 --> 00:12:17,076 Speaker 2: you walked into my facility today, you'd see a giant 251 00:12:17,116 --> 00:12:20,156 Speaker 2: tank on the left hand side facility. We'd dump that 252 00:12:20,276 --> 00:12:23,436 Speaker 2: shredded battery material into that tank. We dissolve it, and 253 00:12:23,476 --> 00:12:25,316 Speaker 2: so all those dissolved metals are in there. 254 00:12:25,396 --> 00:12:28,516 Speaker 1: So the shredded battery which is called black mass. Is 255 00:12:28,556 --> 00:12:31,276 Speaker 1: that right? You haven't said black mass. I'm sort of disappointed. 256 00:12:31,316 --> 00:12:33,076 Speaker 1: I was excited for you to state black mass. 257 00:12:33,156 --> 00:12:34,436 Speaker 3: Yes, it's called black mass. 258 00:12:34,716 --> 00:12:37,636 Speaker 2: It just it literally looks like black like flower, like 259 00:12:37,636 --> 00:12:39,436 Speaker 2: the flower that you'd bake with. It just looks like 260 00:12:39,436 --> 00:12:41,156 Speaker 2: a black version of that, which is very interesting. 261 00:12:41,276 --> 00:12:43,996 Speaker 1: So you get truckloads of black mass? Or did you 262 00:12:44,036 --> 00:12:47,236 Speaker 1: build your facility next to that of some company that 263 00:12:47,276 --> 00:12:49,916 Speaker 1: shreds batteries and creates black mass? Is that why you're there? 264 00:12:49,996 --> 00:12:53,436 Speaker 2: The reason we chose Fairfield was because there's a lot 265 00:12:53,476 --> 00:12:58,876 Speaker 2: of just industrial scrap that finds its way to the Midwest. 266 00:12:58,516 --> 00:13:00,636 Speaker 1: The black mass capital of the. 267 00:13:00,516 --> 00:13:02,316 Speaker 2: There is a couple of black mass companies around there 268 00:13:02,316 --> 00:13:04,316 Speaker 2: that take the batteries and show them into black mass, 269 00:13:04,356 --> 00:13:07,756 Speaker 2: and then we also process other types of industrial scrap 270 00:13:07,836 --> 00:13:11,796 Speaker 2: like catalysts from the oil gas industry. So that area 271 00:13:11,836 --> 00:13:14,036 Speaker 2: is just rich with those types of companies. 272 00:13:14,316 --> 00:13:16,556 Speaker 1: So you've got your deck of cards. I like the 273 00:13:16,596 --> 00:13:19,076 Speaker 1: deck of cards. It's a metaphor. They're sort of stacked 274 00:13:19,156 --> 00:13:21,876 Speaker 1: a little spaced out. The black mass goes in one side, 275 00:13:22,356 --> 00:13:25,196 Speaker 1: you dissolve it into a liquid, and then what happens. 276 00:13:24,916 --> 00:13:28,476 Speaker 2: And then that liquid goes into our deca cards oyster system. 277 00:13:28,956 --> 00:13:32,076 Speaker 2: That's where the chemicals are being produced in those cells 278 00:13:32,116 --> 00:13:34,076 Speaker 2: to pull out the cobalt, to pull out the nickel, 279 00:13:34,876 --> 00:13:36,716 Speaker 2: and then they come out the other side as the 280 00:13:36,716 --> 00:13:37,756 Speaker 2: product that we can sell. 281 00:13:38,276 --> 00:13:41,396 Speaker 1: And are you actually buying the black mass and selling 282 00:13:41,436 --> 00:13:43,916 Speaker 1: the nickel? Are you in the nickel business? 283 00:13:44,156 --> 00:13:45,996 Speaker 2: For this facility, we are so we called a merchant 284 00:13:45,996 --> 00:13:49,876 Speaker 2: facility where yes, we buy black mass from different partner 285 00:13:49,876 --> 00:13:52,676 Speaker 2: facilities and then we are selling the nickel product on 286 00:13:52,716 --> 00:13:54,556 Speaker 2: the other side of it. This will be the only 287 00:13:54,596 --> 00:13:56,676 Speaker 2: facility that we have that sort of again, I call 288 00:13:56,716 --> 00:13:59,436 Speaker 2: it a merchant facility for the business model, and we 289 00:13:59,476 --> 00:14:01,156 Speaker 2: did it for the first one again because it was 290 00:14:01,196 --> 00:14:03,796 Speaker 2: the first time that we've built the system at commercial scale, 291 00:14:03,876 --> 00:14:06,156 Speaker 2: so we wanted full site control. 292 00:14:06,516 --> 00:14:08,756 Speaker 3: And then we also use it as a business development tool. 293 00:14:08,836 --> 00:14:12,196 Speaker 2: Right. Our traditional business model moving forward will be to 294 00:14:12,276 --> 00:14:15,476 Speaker 2: operate under what's called a tolling model, and so it's 295 00:14:15,516 --> 00:14:18,396 Speaker 2: really where we'll go on site with our partners and 296 00:14:18,556 --> 00:14:21,716 Speaker 2: Cycle will own and operate our system on their site, 297 00:14:21,756 --> 00:14:24,516 Speaker 2: and we'll charge them a fee per pound of save 298 00:14:24,596 --> 00:14:27,556 Speaker 2: battery or black mass that we process for them. So 299 00:14:27,596 --> 00:14:30,556 Speaker 2: think of almost like refining as a service, if you will. 300 00:14:30,676 --> 00:14:34,356 Speaker 2: So they'll own the feedstock, we'll charge them to process it, 301 00:14:34,396 --> 00:14:36,796 Speaker 2: and then they'll own the nickel product coming out on 302 00:14:36,836 --> 00:14:37,516 Speaker 2: the other side. 303 00:14:37,556 --> 00:14:40,116 Speaker 1: Because you don't want to be in the nickel business. 304 00:14:39,676 --> 00:14:41,396 Speaker 2: As a young company, we wanted to only take the 305 00:14:41,476 --> 00:14:43,876 Speaker 2: risks we had to. Yeah, so we felt like, Okay, 306 00:14:43,876 --> 00:14:46,196 Speaker 2: we can handle the operational risk. It's our technology. We'll 307 00:14:46,236 --> 00:14:47,756 Speaker 2: do what we're good at, and then we'll let these 308 00:14:47,756 --> 00:14:49,396 Speaker 2: companies do it they're good at because they've been in 309 00:14:50,076 --> 00:14:53,116 Speaker 2: Remember these companies have been in the commodity business for decades. 310 00:14:53,196 --> 00:14:54,156 Speaker 3: Right or longer. 311 00:14:54,436 --> 00:14:57,116 Speaker 2: I mean, they're very skilled in like the logistics and 312 00:14:57,196 --> 00:14:58,476 Speaker 2: the collection and no. 313 00:14:58,516 --> 00:15:00,636 Speaker 1: Commodity business is crazy. Why would you want to do that? 314 00:15:00,676 --> 00:15:02,676 Speaker 1: If you have some technology, you believe it and let 315 00:15:02,716 --> 00:15:04,156 Speaker 1: other people solve that problem. 316 00:15:04,276 --> 00:15:06,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, we want to be the technologists. We want to 317 00:15:06,196 --> 00:15:09,116 Speaker 2: be the technology provider. So that's our business model moving forward. 318 00:15:09,196 --> 00:15:11,756 Speaker 2: And so what we use OHIO for is really like 319 00:15:12,196 --> 00:15:14,516 Speaker 2: a tool to show them what the technology looks like. 320 00:15:14,836 --> 00:15:18,156 Speaker 2: We can process their material, you know, at lower volumes there, 321 00:15:18,276 --> 00:15:19,796 Speaker 2: to show them what we can do with it. It 322 00:15:19,876 --> 00:15:22,716 Speaker 2: de risks it on both sides as we're going into 323 00:15:22,756 --> 00:15:24,636 Speaker 2: this more partnership model with them in the future. 324 00:15:25,596 --> 00:15:28,116 Speaker 1: So we've been talking about nickel. I heard you talk 325 00:15:28,156 --> 00:15:32,756 Speaker 1: in earlier interviews about nickel in particular, or this nickel 326 00:15:32,796 --> 00:15:37,796 Speaker 1: product more specifically in particular as being acutely affected by 327 00:15:37,876 --> 00:15:40,756 Speaker 1: kind of legal and regulatory changes both in the US 328 00:15:41,436 --> 00:15:44,316 Speaker 1: and in Europe. In a way that is good for you, right, 329 00:15:44,356 --> 00:15:46,156 Speaker 1: in a way that like those may be about to 330 00:15:46,196 --> 00:15:47,036 Speaker 1: go away. 331 00:15:46,836 --> 00:15:49,036 Speaker 2: They are are they maybe us right, we don't know. 332 00:15:49,076 --> 00:15:51,516 Speaker 1: Yet, and they seem likely to be about. 333 00:15:51,596 --> 00:15:52,716 Speaker 3: Likely to go away. That's right. 334 00:15:53,276 --> 00:15:57,316 Speaker 2: But I would say this administration also prioritizes critical minerals 335 00:15:57,396 --> 00:15:59,556 Speaker 2: just for other reasons, right, so more on the national 336 00:15:59,596 --> 00:16:02,516 Speaker 2: security side, and to really onchour our supply chain. So 337 00:16:02,876 --> 00:16:07,876 Speaker 2: there is equally as much demand for domestically produced materials, 338 00:16:07,956 --> 00:16:10,436 Speaker 2: just for a different reason. And so we still feel 339 00:16:10,636 --> 00:16:12,996 Speaker 2: like a ton of tailwinds with the executive orders, and 340 00:16:13,036 --> 00:16:15,036 Speaker 2: we'll see how that translates into policy in the next 341 00:16:15,036 --> 00:16:15,756 Speaker 2: couple of years. 342 00:16:16,276 --> 00:16:18,436 Speaker 1: So the end of the ev mandate is bad for you, 343 00:16:18,476 --> 00:16:19,796 Speaker 1: but high tariffs are good for you. 344 00:16:20,156 --> 00:16:21,396 Speaker 2: I don't know if I put it like that, but 345 00:16:21,596 --> 00:16:25,756 Speaker 2: we are definitely taking advantage of the desire to have 346 00:16:25,996 --> 00:16:28,116 Speaker 2: on shoing of these critical and il supply chains and 347 00:16:28,156 --> 00:16:30,436 Speaker 2: being one of the companies in the space that's operational. 348 00:16:30,476 --> 00:16:32,556 Speaker 3: So I think it's a good signal. 349 00:16:32,276 --> 00:16:34,676 Speaker 2: For us to scale quickly to be able to provide 350 00:16:34,956 --> 00:16:37,876 Speaker 2: both the military and again the folks who are still 351 00:16:37,916 --> 00:16:40,996 Speaker 2: pushing forward through the clean energy economy and the technologies 352 00:16:40,996 --> 00:16:43,276 Speaker 2: they're building, Right, they both need supply of these materials 353 00:16:43,316 --> 00:16:43,916 Speaker 2: they are used for. 354 00:16:43,876 --> 00:16:47,076 Speaker 1: Both pivoting from being an energy transition company to being 355 00:16:47,076 --> 00:16:51,596 Speaker 1: in an American energy dominance company. That's right, we same company, right, 356 00:16:51,876 --> 00:16:52,716 Speaker 1: different wrapper. 357 00:16:53,116 --> 00:16:55,236 Speaker 2: It's very true both we need both of those things. 358 00:16:55,276 --> 00:16:57,716 Speaker 2: And then you know on the on the European side, 359 00:16:57,716 --> 00:17:00,036 Speaker 2: where they haven't had much change in terms of their 360 00:17:00,116 --> 00:17:02,316 Speaker 2: their regulatory environment as I like to think about it, 361 00:17:02,356 --> 00:17:05,276 Speaker 2: but they care about this again for a different reason. 362 00:17:05,356 --> 00:17:07,836 Speaker 2: They have something that's called the battery passport where they're 363 00:17:07,836 --> 00:17:10,716 Speaker 2: going to have to reduce the carbon footprint of their 364 00:17:11,036 --> 00:17:14,076 Speaker 2: batteries that are being produced. And it starts with the metals, right, 365 00:17:14,116 --> 00:17:19,356 Speaker 2: And so currently where you can source the vast majority 366 00:17:19,356 --> 00:17:22,036 Speaker 2: of the nickel around the world uses a technology that 367 00:17:22,156 --> 00:17:23,796 Speaker 2: is very carbon intensive. 368 00:17:23,836 --> 00:17:24,916 Speaker 3: It's called HPAL. 369 00:17:25,396 --> 00:17:28,396 Speaker 2: HPAL is the acronym if folks care to look that up. 370 00:17:28,396 --> 00:17:30,596 Speaker 2: But it's just a very very carbon intensive way to 371 00:17:30,996 --> 00:17:33,676 Speaker 2: produce this nickel out of the nickel mining that happens 372 00:17:33,676 --> 00:17:37,276 Speaker 2: in Indonesia, and it's so carbon intensive that it doesn't 373 00:17:37,316 --> 00:17:40,436 Speaker 2: meet those requirements. So Europe is forced to try and 374 00:17:40,516 --> 00:17:44,396 Speaker 2: find another source of these materials. And on top of that, 375 00:17:44,436 --> 00:17:47,836 Speaker 2: they have very strict recycling rates that they'll have to 376 00:17:47,916 --> 00:17:51,156 Speaker 2: hit over the next several years. It sort of forces 377 00:17:51,236 --> 00:17:55,956 Speaker 2: industry within the EU to develop recycling and refining technologies. 378 00:17:56,276 --> 00:17:58,476 Speaker 2: And then on top of that, if you do recycle 379 00:17:58,476 --> 00:18:01,356 Speaker 2: the batteries, there and you produce this black mass. They've 380 00:18:01,396 --> 00:18:04,636 Speaker 2: also now classified this black mass as a very specific 381 00:18:04,676 --> 00:18:08,436 Speaker 2: type of hazardous waste, which means that it's very difficult 382 00:18:08,436 --> 00:18:12,516 Speaker 2: and nearly impotus to ship the black mass between country 383 00:18:12,556 --> 00:18:13,996 Speaker 2: borders within the EU. 384 00:18:14,516 --> 00:18:18,516 Speaker 1: Uh huh. Arguably a self defeating regulation, but perhaps good 385 00:18:18,516 --> 00:18:19,836 Speaker 1: for your business, great for. 386 00:18:19,916 --> 00:18:22,196 Speaker 2: End cycle because we are the only one of the 387 00:18:22,236 --> 00:18:25,396 Speaker 2: only modular technologies that can go into each country and 388 00:18:25,676 --> 00:18:28,196 Speaker 2: help them turn that black mass into a product that 389 00:18:28,236 --> 00:18:31,156 Speaker 2: they can easily move across borders. Right, So again, this 390 00:18:31,676 --> 00:18:36,556 Speaker 2: distributed modular refining approach is quickly becoming the only way 391 00:18:36,556 --> 00:18:39,196 Speaker 2: that they'll be able to solve these challenges within the EU. 392 00:18:39,236 --> 00:18:41,396 Speaker 2: And then I think similar to here in the US, right, 393 00:18:41,396 --> 00:18:43,596 Speaker 2: we have not been able to build sort of traditional 394 00:18:43,676 --> 00:18:44,396 Speaker 2: technology here. 395 00:18:44,876 --> 00:18:46,436 Speaker 1: So when are you going to turn on the first 396 00:18:46,516 --> 00:18:47,596 Speaker 1: oyster in Europe? 397 00:18:48,036 --> 00:18:50,196 Speaker 2: So the goal would be twenty twenty six. So we're 398 00:18:50,236 --> 00:18:53,156 Speaker 2: working with some partners now to try and solidify what 399 00:18:53,196 --> 00:18:55,876 Speaker 2: those projects will look like, but starting construction in twenty 400 00:18:55,876 --> 00:18:56,716 Speaker 2: twenty six is the goal. 401 00:18:57,796 --> 00:19:00,156 Speaker 1: So we've been talking about nickel. Is that going to 402 00:19:00,236 --> 00:19:02,996 Speaker 1: be your main output for a while? I mean, can 403 00:19:03,036 --> 00:19:05,716 Speaker 1: it be anything that's can it be lithium, Can it 404 00:19:05,756 --> 00:19:07,676 Speaker 1: be cobalt? Like, how does that work? 405 00:19:08,196 --> 00:19:10,476 Speaker 2: Yes, the main product out of the system is like 406 00:19:10,516 --> 00:19:13,636 Speaker 2: a mixture of cobalt and nickel. Actually it's called nickel MHP, 407 00:19:13,716 --> 00:19:15,876 Speaker 2: which is a very industry specific term. It's just a 408 00:19:15,956 --> 00:19:19,076 Speaker 2: nickel product. We also produce a lithium product out of 409 00:19:19,116 --> 00:19:22,276 Speaker 2: the black mass as well. And then in development, we 410 00:19:22,356 --> 00:19:24,436 Speaker 2: have a new system for copper, so a lot of 411 00:19:24,476 --> 00:19:27,316 Speaker 2: our partners have copper scrap. We're also talking some copper 412 00:19:27,356 --> 00:19:29,236 Speaker 2: mining companies about some of the issues they're having to 413 00:19:29,276 --> 00:19:30,516 Speaker 2: deploy the technology there. 414 00:19:31,156 --> 00:19:32,756 Speaker 3: And then we also have one for rare earths. 415 00:19:32,956 --> 00:19:35,116 Speaker 2: So the rare earths are the metals in think like 416 00:19:35,156 --> 00:19:37,956 Speaker 2: the magnets that are in your motors, in the wind 417 00:19:37,956 --> 00:19:41,316 Speaker 2: turbines that you might see hopefully in your backyard. So 418 00:19:41,676 --> 00:19:45,356 Speaker 2: it's two other systems to try and produce as much 419 00:19:45,396 --> 00:19:47,716 Speaker 2: of these critical minerals as we possibly can, because they 420 00:19:47,756 --> 00:19:50,476 Speaker 2: all face the same challenges, right, they're all refined. The 421 00:19:50,556 --> 00:19:53,716 Speaker 2: vestnory them are fined overseas, and it causes again a 422 00:19:53,716 --> 00:19:56,836 Speaker 2: big national security issue and just limits us into how 423 00:19:56,916 --> 00:19:59,396 Speaker 2: quickly we can build these technologies here in the US 424 00:19:59,436 --> 00:20:01,276 Speaker 2: and Europe. 425 00:20:02,436 --> 00:20:12,996 Speaker 1: We'll be back in just a minute. What's the rate 426 00:20:13,076 --> 00:20:14,716 Speaker 1: limiting step for you and expanding? 427 00:20:14,756 --> 00:20:16,596 Speaker 2: I'd say the rate limiting step for us now is 428 00:20:16,636 --> 00:20:18,716 Speaker 2: a combination of funding and just the team. 429 00:20:18,796 --> 00:20:18,956 Speaker 3: Right. 430 00:20:18,996 --> 00:20:21,076 Speaker 2: So, I think we're ready to go, and we will 431 00:20:21,116 --> 00:20:23,596 Speaker 2: be fundraising in the next several months to go out 432 00:20:23,596 --> 00:20:25,876 Speaker 2: and do these projects, and then with that funding, we'll 433 00:20:25,916 --> 00:20:28,116 Speaker 2: build the team that we need to go execute. 434 00:20:28,156 --> 00:20:30,076 Speaker 1: I mean, in terms of funding, if you sign a 435 00:20:30,116 --> 00:20:33,556 Speaker 1: contract with some company to do refining as a service 436 00:20:33,556 --> 00:20:37,196 Speaker 1: for them, can you borrow against that contract to build 437 00:20:37,196 --> 00:20:40,796 Speaker 1: the thing that they promised to pay you to use? Yeah, 438 00:20:40,836 --> 00:20:43,596 Speaker 1: Like a factory is a classic thing that it's collateral. 439 00:20:43,636 --> 00:20:45,036 Speaker 1: You could borrow money in it. Or is it not 440 00:20:45,076 --> 00:20:47,396 Speaker 1: collateral because nobody's ever built one before and the bank 441 00:20:47,436 --> 00:20:48,076 Speaker 1: doesn't try it. 442 00:20:48,236 --> 00:20:50,756 Speaker 2: We're somewhere in the middle. So we're in this for 443 00:20:50,796 --> 00:20:53,556 Speaker 2: folks out there who may be building or have heard 444 00:20:53,556 --> 00:20:55,556 Speaker 2: of other startups going through this phase, it's called like 445 00:20:55,636 --> 00:20:57,076 Speaker 2: the scale gap, the missing middle. 446 00:20:57,436 --> 00:21:00,116 Speaker 1: Huh, you got one and you want ten? And how 447 00:21:00,156 --> 00:21:00,636 Speaker 1: do you get there? 448 00:21:00,716 --> 00:21:01,356 Speaker 3: And you get the money? 449 00:21:01,356 --> 00:21:04,116 Speaker 2: Because we still have some technical risk right of course, 450 00:21:04,116 --> 00:21:05,556 Speaker 2: because it's a second of a kind and a first 451 00:21:05,556 --> 00:21:06,036 Speaker 2: of its kind. 452 00:21:06,076 --> 00:21:07,276 Speaker 3: Ohio is our first a kind. 453 00:21:07,316 --> 00:21:10,676 Speaker 2: So there's a whole bunch of folks who are dealing 454 00:21:10,716 --> 00:21:12,476 Speaker 2: with the same thing and trying to find like what 455 00:21:12,556 --> 00:21:15,596 Speaker 2: does that financing look like for this type of risk profile. 456 00:21:15,636 --> 00:21:17,356 Speaker 2: But there is money out there, and I do think 457 00:21:17,396 --> 00:21:20,196 Speaker 2: that again given the space that we're in and where 458 00:21:20,196 --> 00:21:23,316 Speaker 2: we are with with Ohio and the next projects, and 459 00:21:23,356 --> 00:21:25,796 Speaker 2: like you said, the contracts will be everything to show 460 00:21:25,836 --> 00:21:28,276 Speaker 2: that there is market poll for our technology. 461 00:21:28,476 --> 00:21:30,756 Speaker 1: What are you trying to figure out now? What's sort 462 00:21:30,796 --> 00:21:31,636 Speaker 1: of the frontier for you? 463 00:21:31,716 --> 00:21:33,196 Speaker 2: So what we're trying to figure out now is how 464 00:21:33,196 --> 00:21:37,116 Speaker 2: do we translate this technology that we are expanding within 465 00:21:37,156 --> 00:21:40,836 Speaker 2: this scrap recycling space with into the mining space. I 466 00:21:40,876 --> 00:21:44,596 Speaker 2: think the whole goal of in Cycle was to try 467 00:21:44,756 --> 00:21:48,076 Speaker 2: and you know, create the most robust supply chains that 468 00:21:48,116 --> 00:21:51,236 Speaker 2: we possibly can for these critical minerals and you know, 469 00:21:51,276 --> 00:21:54,356 Speaker 2: build a clean energy economy on the cleanest source of materials. 470 00:21:54,396 --> 00:21:56,156 Speaker 2: You know what really killed me at the end of 471 00:21:56,196 --> 00:21:58,036 Speaker 2: the day when I was starting about thinking the company 472 00:21:58,116 --> 00:22:00,916 Speaker 2: is like, gosh, we are building this like quote unquote 473 00:22:00,956 --> 00:22:03,596 Speaker 2: clean energy economy on a dirty source of material So 474 00:22:03,796 --> 00:22:06,276 Speaker 2: we continue to make the same problems in industry that 475 00:22:06,316 --> 00:22:08,156 Speaker 2: we have in the past, and so that was really 476 00:22:08,156 --> 00:22:10,156 Speaker 2: like the core of why I wanted to start and 477 00:22:10,236 --> 00:22:13,756 Speaker 2: cycle and the application of scrap recycling came from that. 478 00:22:13,876 --> 00:22:15,596 Speaker 2: And then the goal and the dream is really to 479 00:22:15,596 --> 00:22:17,236 Speaker 2: start to do this in the mining space, because that's 480 00:22:17,276 --> 00:22:20,516 Speaker 2: where you can have like massive, massive impact. I mean, 481 00:22:20,516 --> 00:22:24,076 Speaker 2: there's just orders of magnitude more material process per year 482 00:22:24,436 --> 00:22:27,676 Speaker 2: from mine than there is from recycling. And the goal 483 00:22:27,756 --> 00:22:33,716 Speaker 2: is to eventually recycle enough material to have it all 484 00:22:33,756 --> 00:22:37,196 Speaker 2: in circulation so that you can just solely rely on recycling. 485 00:22:37,556 --> 00:22:40,916 Speaker 1: Even if you are recycling everything, assuming people are switching 486 00:22:40,956 --> 00:22:44,196 Speaker 1: to evs over time, you'll still need a lot of 487 00:22:44,876 --> 00:22:48,436 Speaker 1: new lithium and nickel and cobalt out of the ground. 488 00:22:48,796 --> 00:22:51,076 Speaker 2: For in the next several decades. Absolutely, So that's where 489 00:22:51,116 --> 00:22:55,596 Speaker 2: I think mining gets this bad rap. But we have 490 00:22:55,676 --> 00:22:58,316 Speaker 2: to continue to mine materials to push forward in the 491 00:22:58,316 --> 00:23:00,716 Speaker 2: clean energy economy. We like you said, there is not 492 00:23:00,876 --> 00:23:02,956 Speaker 2: enough recycling material out there to be even if you 493 00:23:03,196 --> 00:23:05,716 Speaker 2: recycled one hundred percent of it, it does not get 494 00:23:05,756 --> 00:23:08,156 Speaker 2: you enough cobalt and nickel or lithium or whatever material 495 00:23:08,196 --> 00:23:10,356 Speaker 2: you're looking at to be able to meet demand. But 496 00:23:10,436 --> 00:23:12,676 Speaker 2: what we're really targeting is how do you turn on 497 00:23:13,276 --> 00:23:17,116 Speaker 2: these existing or bodies that haven't been developed yet. Right, 498 00:23:17,116 --> 00:23:19,796 Speaker 2: So there is cobalt, there is nickel, there is copper. 499 00:23:19,836 --> 00:23:22,076 Speaker 2: Here in the US, there's not a ton of mining 500 00:23:22,076 --> 00:23:25,876 Speaker 2: that happens because the refining piece is so environmentally damaging, right, 501 00:23:25,876 --> 00:23:27,196 Speaker 2: and people don't want in their backyards. 502 00:23:27,236 --> 00:23:27,876 Speaker 3: And I wouldn't either. 503 00:23:27,916 --> 00:23:30,556 Speaker 2: I understand the sort of the pain with that. But 504 00:23:30,596 --> 00:23:33,956 Speaker 2: if you can develop a technology that overcomes and doesn't 505 00:23:34,036 --> 00:23:37,116 Speaker 2: have all the waste that's associated with the traditional refining 506 00:23:37,196 --> 00:23:41,516 Speaker 2: and can have the same unit economics and justify opening 507 00:23:41,596 --> 00:23:43,836 Speaker 2: up these smaller minds because they are much much smaller 508 00:23:43,836 --> 00:23:46,756 Speaker 2: than what you'd see overseas. Right, So again the technology 509 00:23:46,836 --> 00:23:50,796 Speaker 2: is a mismatch for the source of materials. That's really 510 00:23:50,876 --> 00:23:54,196 Speaker 2: where this innovation can have a major, major impact of 511 00:23:54,276 --> 00:23:57,156 Speaker 2: like getting more of these minds online and getting the 512 00:23:57,276 --> 00:24:00,396 Speaker 2: US to have a mining industry. Again, it's really the 513 00:24:00,396 --> 00:24:02,316 Speaker 2: technology that I think will unlock that. And that's sort 514 00:24:02,316 --> 00:24:04,836 Speaker 2: of the new frontier front cycle is is I have 515 00:24:04,876 --> 00:24:07,396 Speaker 2: a team of folks sort of looking at what are 516 00:24:07,436 --> 00:24:11,116 Speaker 2: the right applications in mining for US, and you know, 517 00:24:11,196 --> 00:24:13,196 Speaker 2: does the technology need to look any different. So the 518 00:24:13,916 --> 00:24:17,196 Speaker 2: chemistry basis, the cells will work exactly the same, it's 519 00:24:17,276 --> 00:24:19,196 Speaker 2: just the system will likely have to look different. 520 00:24:19,316 --> 00:24:22,316 Speaker 1: It's refining either way. It's refining either way, refining now, 521 00:24:22,356 --> 00:24:26,156 Speaker 1: but instead of the input being black masks shredded up batteries, 522 00:24:26,236 --> 00:24:28,596 Speaker 1: it'll be a lot of dirt with a little. 523 00:24:28,356 --> 00:24:29,756 Speaker 3: Bit exactly exactly right. 524 00:24:30,436 --> 00:24:34,236 Speaker 1: So, there are a few other battery recycling companies in 525 00:24:34,276 --> 00:24:37,956 Speaker 1: the US, including one started by the guy who actually 526 00:24:37,956 --> 00:24:44,036 Speaker 1: started Tesla's aby, Redwood Materials. So tell me sort of 527 00:24:44,076 --> 00:24:47,996 Speaker 1: how how you fit in that broader context of the industry. 528 00:24:48,116 --> 00:24:50,636 Speaker 2: Yes, there's many companies. Redwood is one of the largest 529 00:24:50,636 --> 00:24:53,236 Speaker 2: companies who works in the battery cycling space, especially here 530 00:24:53,236 --> 00:24:57,676 Speaker 2: in the US, and their strategy is battery to battery, right. 531 00:24:57,716 --> 00:25:01,316 Speaker 2: They are solely battery recyclers who want to produce some 532 00:25:01,476 --> 00:25:04,796 Speaker 2: type of end battery product. Forether it's a chemical that 533 00:25:04,836 --> 00:25:07,716 Speaker 2: goes into batteries, or the cathode that goes to the batteries, 534 00:25:07,796 --> 00:25:11,196 Speaker 2: or the battery itself. So what they're trying to do 535 00:25:11,556 --> 00:25:14,356 Speaker 2: is really build out that entire supply chain from collecting 536 00:25:14,356 --> 00:25:17,836 Speaker 2: the batteries shredding those batteries into black mass, they want 537 00:25:17,876 --> 00:25:20,196 Speaker 2: to refine those materials, and then they want to be 538 00:25:20,236 --> 00:25:21,796 Speaker 2: a manufacturer, So they. 539 00:25:21,676 --> 00:25:24,316 Speaker 1: Want to be a company that buys old batteries and sells. 540 00:25:24,236 --> 00:25:27,556 Speaker 2: Exactly And I think that's very needed in the space. 541 00:25:27,676 --> 00:25:30,636 Speaker 2: Right there's a lot of steps in the supply chain 542 00:25:30,636 --> 00:25:31,516 Speaker 2: that need to be built. 543 00:25:31,516 --> 00:25:31,716 Speaker 3: Here. 544 00:25:31,956 --> 00:25:35,036 Speaker 2: What end cycle does is just the refining piece, and 545 00:25:35,116 --> 00:25:39,156 Speaker 2: so these companies are using very traditional technology from the 546 00:25:39,196 --> 00:25:42,756 Speaker 2: mining space, and so what we're providing and we partner 547 00:25:42,756 --> 00:25:44,916 Speaker 2: with a lot of these companies, is just a new 548 00:25:44,996 --> 00:25:48,116 Speaker 2: technology that is cheaper, more efficient to be able to 549 00:25:48,116 --> 00:25:49,036 Speaker 2: process these batteries. 550 00:25:49,356 --> 00:25:51,476 Speaker 1: Maybe that's like the wrong industry for me to be 551 00:25:51,476 --> 00:25:53,316 Speaker 1: thinking about. Is the right industry for me to be 552 00:25:53,316 --> 00:25:56,316 Speaker 1: thinking about? Refining? Is the right question? Who else is 553 00:25:56,356 --> 00:25:58,236 Speaker 1: trying to new and better ways. 554 00:25:58,076 --> 00:26:00,276 Speaker 2: Of There's not a ton of companies in the space. 555 00:26:00,276 --> 00:26:02,196 Speaker 2: There are a few of us who are solely focused 556 00:26:02,196 --> 00:26:04,476 Speaker 2: on the refining piece and who are trying to take 557 00:26:04,516 --> 00:26:07,156 Speaker 2: this modular approach. I would say we're one of the 558 00:26:07,156 --> 00:26:10,116 Speaker 2: only ones that takes more than batteries. There's a lot 559 00:26:10,116 --> 00:26:13,596 Speaker 2: of refining companies focused on black mass in particular. But 560 00:26:13,796 --> 00:26:17,356 Speaker 2: again we said, like, look, even if you're recycled one 561 00:26:17,396 --> 00:26:19,796 Speaker 2: hundred percent of batteries. You're not going to get enough nickel, 562 00:26:19,796 --> 00:26:22,676 Speaker 2: as we talked about earlier, or coboth or lithium. And 563 00:26:22,756 --> 00:26:24,676 Speaker 2: so from the beginning, you know, we tried to build 564 00:26:24,716 --> 00:26:28,316 Speaker 2: a technology that could be very flexible in the types 565 00:26:28,356 --> 00:26:30,796 Speaker 2: of materials we can put in on the front end. 566 00:26:31,156 --> 00:26:33,556 Speaker 2: And so I would say we're one of the only 567 00:26:33,556 --> 00:26:37,596 Speaker 2: companies in the space that diversified. But yeah, one or 568 00:26:37,636 --> 00:26:41,276 Speaker 2: two others in the US and Europe that are sort 569 00:26:41,316 --> 00:26:42,876 Speaker 2: of in the same exact space. 570 00:26:42,636 --> 00:26:45,196 Speaker 1: That we are. Why might you fail if you don't 571 00:26:45,236 --> 00:26:46,716 Speaker 1: make it? Why wouldn't you make it? 572 00:26:47,396 --> 00:26:48,916 Speaker 2: One of the reasons we couldn't make it is if 573 00:26:49,036 --> 00:26:54,156 Speaker 2: technology adoption right, if we start to have massive shifts 574 00:26:54,196 --> 00:26:57,516 Speaker 2: in the regulatory environment, which some folks in the climate 575 00:26:57,636 --> 00:27:00,076 Speaker 2: technology space, which some people would put us in, are 576 00:27:00,076 --> 00:27:02,796 Speaker 2: showing to feel that now the market really slows and 577 00:27:02,916 --> 00:27:05,596 Speaker 2: startups need to move at a very fast pace and 578 00:27:05,676 --> 00:27:08,356 Speaker 2: make a lot of progress because we have limited cash right, 579 00:27:08,436 --> 00:27:12,036 Speaker 2: because we're fun raising to survive until we build systems 580 00:27:12,036 --> 00:27:16,516 Speaker 2: that can generate consistent cash flow. And so when markets 581 00:27:16,556 --> 00:27:18,516 Speaker 2: slow down is when startups die. 582 00:27:18,836 --> 00:27:22,076 Speaker 1: And in your case, is that fundamentally the EV market like, 583 00:27:22,116 --> 00:27:24,916 Speaker 1: what is the key market you're thinking of when you say. 584 00:27:24,756 --> 00:27:27,796 Speaker 2: That, I think capital markets in general. Right, it makes 585 00:27:27,836 --> 00:27:29,276 Speaker 2: it hard for companies to fundraise. 586 00:27:29,396 --> 00:27:31,916 Speaker 1: So you mean, if like there's a recession, then venture 587 00:27:31,956 --> 00:27:33,996 Speaker 1: capital pulls back and people don't want to do hard 588 00:27:33,996 --> 00:27:37,276 Speaker 1: tech anymore. That's a more macro kind of hard tech winter. 589 00:27:37,716 --> 00:27:41,516 Speaker 2: Right. The macro environment can can really challenge startups being 590 00:27:41,556 --> 00:27:45,036 Speaker 2: able to fundraise and then market specific. Yeah, so if 591 00:27:45,556 --> 00:27:48,996 Speaker 2: for some reason, the current administration or whatever, a region 592 00:27:49,036 --> 00:27:51,036 Speaker 2: around the world you're working in, for some reason moves 593 00:27:51,036 --> 00:27:54,076 Speaker 2: away or stops prioritizing that industry. 594 00:27:54,116 --> 00:27:55,156 Speaker 3: EV's is an example. 595 00:27:55,436 --> 00:27:58,236 Speaker 2: Yes, it can really tank startups, right, because we looked 596 00:27:58,236 --> 00:27:59,676 Speaker 2: at that as a company, and I try to tell 597 00:27:59,716 --> 00:28:01,196 Speaker 2: this too as many folks who will listen who are 598 00:28:01,196 --> 00:28:03,036 Speaker 2: starting to build a company as well. It's like you 599 00:28:03,076 --> 00:28:06,076 Speaker 2: need to think about how you diversify from the very beginning. 600 00:28:06,236 --> 00:28:08,836 Speaker 2: And so that's why while we work within the battery 601 00:28:09,476 --> 00:28:12,276 Speaker 2: an EV space to recycle that black mass as we 602 00:28:12,276 --> 00:28:14,996 Speaker 2: talked about, or refine that black mass, we also refine 603 00:28:15,076 --> 00:28:18,716 Speaker 2: other scrap materials like catalysts from oil and gas, and 604 00:28:18,796 --> 00:28:21,556 Speaker 2: there's a whole slew of industrial scrap that has nothing 605 00:28:21,556 --> 00:28:23,676 Speaker 2: to do with the EV industry that has been around 606 00:28:23,716 --> 00:28:25,036 Speaker 2: for decades and will continue. 607 00:28:24,716 --> 00:28:25,596 Speaker 3: To be around for decades. 608 00:28:25,676 --> 00:28:29,276 Speaker 2: So if for some reason, the EV market tanks and 609 00:28:29,356 --> 00:28:31,876 Speaker 2: cobalt and nickel are no longer a desirable material, which 610 00:28:31,876 --> 00:28:33,836 Speaker 2: we don't expect to happen. You know, we have a 611 00:28:33,836 --> 00:28:36,756 Speaker 2: copper system, we have the rare system, so you know, 612 00:28:36,796 --> 00:28:40,036 Speaker 2: we try to diversify enough to be able to have 613 00:28:40,156 --> 00:28:42,556 Speaker 2: a business for whatever comes right, because we have no 614 00:28:42,596 --> 00:28:44,996 Speaker 2: idea what the next you know, eight years will look like, right, 615 00:28:45,036 --> 00:28:47,436 Speaker 2: ten years, twelve years, as we're you know, continuing to 616 00:28:47,436 --> 00:28:50,996 Speaker 2: scale the business in different directions. So I think macro 617 00:28:51,156 --> 00:28:55,396 Speaker 2: environment and when markets change or when startups can fail, what's. 618 00:28:55,196 --> 00:28:58,396 Speaker 1: The happy story for you? What's that you don't fail story? 619 00:28:58,516 --> 00:29:01,436 Speaker 2: I think encycle becomes the leader and the go to 620 00:29:01,516 --> 00:29:04,876 Speaker 2: technology for refining for both mining companies and recycling companies. 621 00:29:04,956 --> 00:29:08,596 Speaker 2: And I think there's a real and likely possibility that 622 00:29:08,756 --> 00:29:12,996 Speaker 2: happened because of just the way that you know, we 623 00:29:13,076 --> 00:29:14,796 Speaker 2: spend a lot of time trying to figure out what 624 00:29:14,796 --> 00:29:16,876 Speaker 2: are the real pain points in this industry, and I 625 00:29:16,916 --> 00:29:19,996 Speaker 2: feel like the team that I've assembled and the technology 626 00:29:20,036 --> 00:29:22,356 Speaker 2: that we've built solves those problems, and we're starting to 627 00:29:22,356 --> 00:29:24,396 Speaker 2: see that in real time, and so I think, you know, 628 00:29:24,476 --> 00:29:27,076 Speaker 2: I'm hoping in three to five to ten years and 629 00:29:27,116 --> 00:29:30,116 Speaker 2: cycle is the go to refining technology that you see 630 00:29:30,196 --> 00:29:32,516 Speaker 2: for critical minerals in the space, whether it's again on 631 00:29:32,556 --> 00:29:34,676 Speaker 2: the recycling or the mining side. 632 00:29:34,436 --> 00:29:35,076 Speaker 1: Of the world. 633 00:29:38,356 --> 00:29:49,036 Speaker 4: We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. 634 00:29:49,356 --> 00:29:52,156 Speaker 1: Let's finish with the lightning round. What's your favorite element? 635 00:29:52,516 --> 00:29:54,076 Speaker 3: Oh, what's my favorite element? 636 00:29:54,436 --> 00:29:58,316 Speaker 2: I really like I love green and the nickel product 637 00:29:58,316 --> 00:30:00,276 Speaker 2: we produce as green, So I'll say nickel, even though 638 00:30:00,276 --> 00:30:00,796 Speaker 2: that's what I've been. 639 00:30:00,716 --> 00:30:01,636 Speaker 3: Talking about the whole time. 640 00:30:01,796 --> 00:30:03,076 Speaker 1: What kind of green? Like? 641 00:30:03,276 --> 00:30:04,236 Speaker 3: It is pretty green? 642 00:30:04,316 --> 00:30:07,436 Speaker 2: It's likeugh, I wish I could show a picture, but 643 00:30:07,476 --> 00:30:10,316 Speaker 2: it's like a almost like a bright emerald, I would say. 644 00:30:10,996 --> 00:30:13,876 Speaker 2: So it's actually like I love metal chemistry in general 645 00:30:13,916 --> 00:30:17,316 Speaker 2: because you just see such beautiful colors like cobalt blue. 646 00:30:17,556 --> 00:30:21,196 Speaker 2: Cobalt can be pink, nichols green. The mix of cobalts 647 00:30:21,196 --> 00:30:24,116 Speaker 2: in nickel is like a turquoise. So it's very beautiful 648 00:30:24,156 --> 00:30:24,996 Speaker 2: chemistry that happens. 649 00:30:25,156 --> 00:30:27,636 Speaker 1: Why do PhD students make good founders? 650 00:30:27,876 --> 00:30:31,636 Speaker 2: So I always make the joke that PhD students make 651 00:30:31,636 --> 00:30:34,996 Speaker 2: the best founders because we're used to being poor and 652 00:30:35,356 --> 00:30:37,476 Speaker 2: we're used to failing a lot, and you have to 653 00:30:37,596 --> 00:30:40,396 Speaker 2: fail and learn from failure as a founder, and that's 654 00:30:40,436 --> 00:30:43,076 Speaker 2: like a fundamental thing that you learn during your PhD, 655 00:30:43,116 --> 00:30:44,956 Speaker 2: or at least I learned during my PhD. And so 656 00:30:44,996 --> 00:30:47,236 Speaker 2: I think that's why a lot of us make good founders, 657 00:30:47,276 --> 00:30:48,356 Speaker 2: just because of those two things. 658 00:30:48,756 --> 00:30:51,436 Speaker 1: You know what I really want to talk about spin class. 659 00:30:52,796 --> 00:30:54,756 Speaker 1: Is it true that you became a spin instructor to 660 00:30:54,836 --> 00:30:55,956 Speaker 1: learn how to be a public speaker. 661 00:30:56,156 --> 00:30:58,876 Speaker 2: I did, and also to make money because again, as 662 00:30:58,876 --> 00:31:02,516 Speaker 2: a grad student, I was poor. I did it to 663 00:31:02,636 --> 00:31:05,316 Speaker 2: push myself out of my comfort zone, right. I really 664 00:31:05,676 --> 00:31:08,316 Speaker 2: really struggled with public speaking, like I would be shaking, 665 00:31:08,396 --> 00:31:09,516 Speaker 2: I sweating everywhere. 666 00:31:09,556 --> 00:31:10,516 Speaker 3: I mean, it was awful. 667 00:31:10,796 --> 00:31:12,636 Speaker 2: And I had to get over my fear of talking 668 00:31:12,636 --> 00:31:15,796 Speaker 2: in front of people because I loved communicating science in 669 00:31:15,796 --> 00:31:18,036 Speaker 2: a way that people understood. And so I said, okay, 670 00:31:18,276 --> 00:31:19,876 Speaker 2: I didn't want to go like I got advice to 671 00:31:19,916 --> 00:31:23,316 Speaker 2: go do like a theater class, you know, improv and 672 00:31:23,356 --> 00:31:25,236 Speaker 2: I was like, ah, that's not really my jam. I 673 00:31:25,276 --> 00:31:27,636 Speaker 2: like working out, and I said, oh, like, maybe I'll 674 00:31:27,636 --> 00:31:31,556 Speaker 2: try teaching spin class and I actually didn't use a 675 00:31:31,596 --> 00:31:35,236 Speaker 2: microphone for many, many years because I forced myself to 676 00:31:35,316 --> 00:31:38,556 Speaker 2: speak loudly, speak clearly, and to project my voice. And 677 00:31:38,596 --> 00:31:41,156 Speaker 2: so my husband, who was my boyfriend at the time 678 00:31:41,196 --> 00:31:43,716 Speaker 2: when I was at Duke teaching spin. If anyone's been 679 00:31:43,756 --> 00:31:46,036 Speaker 2: to the Duke gym, it's three floors and the spin 680 00:31:46,116 --> 00:31:48,036 Speaker 2: was on the very bottom floor and the entrance was 681 00:31:48,196 --> 00:31:50,516 Speaker 2: like three floors up, and he always left because he 682 00:31:50,516 --> 00:31:53,556 Speaker 2: could always hear me screaming in these spin classes. He's like, oh, 683 00:31:53,596 --> 00:31:56,516 Speaker 2: my girlfriend is teaching. I can hear her. But I 684 00:31:56,596 --> 00:32:00,156 Speaker 2: really tried to do that and it helped, I think, 685 00:32:00,596 --> 00:32:04,036 Speaker 2: prepare me for being a CEO and a founder, because 686 00:32:05,076 --> 00:32:06,716 Speaker 2: you had to be a leader in those rooms. You 687 00:32:06,756 --> 00:32:09,636 Speaker 2: had to you know, inspire and keep people most motivated. 688 00:32:09,676 --> 00:32:12,836 Speaker 2: And those are the same skills that you need in 689 00:32:12,876 --> 00:32:16,236 Speaker 2: this position, especially when you're a small team and going 690 00:32:16,276 --> 00:32:18,996 Speaker 2: through you know, really difficult things. And still, I mean, 691 00:32:18,996 --> 00:32:21,276 Speaker 2: we're eight years in and there's still challenges every single day. 692 00:32:21,556 --> 00:32:24,316 Speaker 2: And so I think that's mostly what I learned from 693 00:32:24,316 --> 00:32:27,476 Speaker 2: being as man intactor is just I love the motivational 694 00:32:27,516 --> 00:32:30,356 Speaker 2: piece of it. It helped me with public speaking, and 695 00:32:31,156 --> 00:32:33,836 Speaker 2: you just you get to learn a different side of people, right, 696 00:32:33,956 --> 00:32:36,516 Speaker 2: Like you get to be there in moments where they're 697 00:32:36,716 --> 00:32:39,036 Speaker 2: not doing well, in moments when they're feeling great about themselves, 698 00:32:39,036 --> 00:32:42,556 Speaker 2: and I thought that was very rewarding and just helping them, 699 00:32:42,836 --> 00:32:44,276 Speaker 2: you know, it's like your me time in the day. 700 00:32:44,276 --> 00:32:46,236 Speaker 2: That's how I think about exercising, and so I loved 701 00:32:46,236 --> 00:32:47,876 Speaker 2: being part of that in their day. 702 00:32:48,196 --> 00:32:51,596 Speaker 1: Have you ever faked resistance? Yes? Of course does everybody. 703 00:32:51,676 --> 00:32:53,916 Speaker 3: I don't know if everyone does, But when you're teaching 704 00:32:53,916 --> 00:32:54,756 Speaker 3: for an hour, you know. 705 00:32:54,716 --> 00:32:59,156 Speaker 1: What, that makes me feel better. I have a peloton 706 00:32:59,676 --> 00:33:03,156 Speaker 1: and I'm in reasonably good shape, but like I fall 707 00:33:03,196 --> 00:33:05,556 Speaker 1: apart when I do, like an interval ride, and when 708 00:33:05,596 --> 00:33:08,876 Speaker 1: the instructor is not falling apart, I'm like, either she's 709 00:33:08,916 --> 00:33:11,676 Speaker 1: in incredible shape, or she's faking it or both. 710 00:33:11,756 --> 00:33:14,196 Speaker 2: I guess yes, you can usually tell when people are 711 00:33:14,276 --> 00:33:16,876 Speaker 2: not faking it because it is a skill and you're 712 00:33:16,956 --> 00:33:19,716 Speaker 2: just an incredible shape, and it's shape that you quickly 713 00:33:19,716 --> 00:33:23,156 Speaker 2: fall out of, like talking at that volume and projecting 714 00:33:23,156 --> 00:33:26,436 Speaker 2: your voice while you're breathing so heavily and exercising. It's 715 00:33:26,436 --> 00:33:27,836 Speaker 2: something that you have to learn how to do, and 716 00:33:27,836 --> 00:33:30,716 Speaker 2: so you can hear in people's voices when they're really working, 717 00:33:30,956 --> 00:33:34,236 Speaker 2: because it's hard to start to not like be breathing 718 00:33:34,236 --> 00:33:35,676 Speaker 2: into the microphone so heavily. 719 00:33:36,196 --> 00:33:38,836 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well that's actually as I'm sure you know 720 00:33:38,876 --> 00:33:41,236 Speaker 1: when they talk about like zone two training, which is 721 00:33:41,236 --> 00:33:44,556 Speaker 1: just like chill cardio. The classic sort of heuristic is 722 00:33:44,636 --> 00:33:46,836 Speaker 1: when you can carry on a conversation, right, and so 723 00:33:47,276 --> 00:33:49,916 Speaker 1: if you're doing a real interval, you shouldn't be able 724 00:33:49,956 --> 00:33:52,116 Speaker 1: to talk normally, you should not. 725 00:33:52,316 --> 00:33:55,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, at least when I was an instructor. Unfortunately, not anymore, 726 00:33:55,716 --> 00:33:58,196 Speaker 2: or at least not right now. Yeah, you some like 727 00:33:58,276 --> 00:34:00,356 Speaker 2: I tried my best because I always say like, I'm 728 00:34:00,396 --> 00:34:02,156 Speaker 2: doing the same resistance to you, and I would be 729 00:34:02,196 --> 00:34:04,076 Speaker 2: truthful in that, like if I was really doing that resistance, 730 00:34:04,076 --> 00:34:05,916 Speaker 2: I would say that to try to motivate people. But 731 00:34:05,956 --> 00:34:08,236 Speaker 2: there are some points where like I had taught five 732 00:34:08,276 --> 00:34:09,716 Speaker 2: classes a week and I was like, I can't do it. 733 00:34:09,756 --> 00:34:11,796 Speaker 2: I can't do it. I just have to be at 734 00:34:11,796 --> 00:34:13,836 Speaker 2: a lower resistance and even if I want to climb. 735 00:34:14,076 --> 00:34:19,836 Speaker 1: Did you have like a favorite cliche motivational phrase as 736 00:34:19,916 --> 00:34:21,036 Speaker 1: an instructor. 737 00:34:21,476 --> 00:34:24,116 Speaker 2: Yes, you can do anything for a minute. You can 738 00:34:24,156 --> 00:34:26,836 Speaker 2: literally do anything for a minute, and I used to 739 00:34:26,836 --> 00:34:28,756 Speaker 2: say that. I used to scream that at people, like 740 00:34:28,756 --> 00:34:30,396 Speaker 2: we're going up a hill. You can do anything for 741 00:34:30,436 --> 00:34:32,836 Speaker 2: a minute. Just keep going, don't psyche yourself out. 742 00:34:32,916 --> 00:34:33,516 Speaker 3: You can do this. 743 00:34:33,716 --> 00:34:35,756 Speaker 2: And so I say that even to myself now whenever 744 00:34:35,756 --> 00:34:43,356 Speaker 2: I'm doing something and you can do anything for a minute. 745 00:34:44,876 --> 00:34:48,476 Speaker 1: Megan O'Connor is the co founder and CEO of NTH Cycle. 746 00:34:48,956 --> 00:34:52,276 Speaker 1: Please email us at problem at pushkin dot fm. We 747 00:34:52,316 --> 00:34:56,036 Speaker 1: are always looking for new guests for the show. Today's 748 00:34:56,076 --> 00:34:59,916 Speaker 1: show was produced by Trinamnino and Gabriel Hunter Chang. It 749 00:35:00,036 --> 00:35:03,876 Speaker 1: was edited by Alexander Garrettson and engineered by Sarah Bruguheer. 750 00:35:04,236 --> 00:35:06,396 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein and we'll be back next week with 751 00:35:06,476 --> 00:35:13,756 Speaker 1: another episode of What's Your Problem.