Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Dana Perkins, and you're listening to Switch on
Speaker 1: the B n OF podcast. So today we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about the energy transition and how it's shaping up
Speaker 1: in Europe. Now, you don't need to be in Europe
Speaker 1: to be interested in it. Europe has ambitious climate targets
Speaker 1: and policies that support developing solutions like green hydrogen, so
Speaker 1: there's a lot for us to learn and potentially apply
Speaker 1: to other parts in the world. Now. Meanwhile, Europe is
Speaker 1: also feeling the crunch from the current energy crisis, and
Speaker 1: this may have an impact on the outlook into the
Speaker 1: future and how the transition actually plays out. We took
Speaker 1: a look out into the future for Europe and we
Speaker 1: ran some scenarios out to You can find them in
Speaker 1: our European Energy Transition Outlook. Now, let's just say this
Speaker 1: is one of our longer reports. Lots of facts, lots
Speaker 1: of charts, lots to learn, but sometimes these can be
Speaker 1: the hardest podcast to record. What really comes out of
Speaker 1: the conversations is what are the authors of the report
Speaker 1: think actually stands out and that was the basis of
Speaker 1: today's discussion. I'm joined by Emma Champion, whose research really
Speaker 1: focuses on the energy transition in Europe specifically, and Andreas Gondolfo,
Speaker 1: who is the lead European power analyst at bienn F.
Speaker 1: Now quickly our disclaimer that BIENNAF does not provide investment
Speaker 1: or strategy advice. We have a full disclaimer at the
Speaker 1: end of the show. But now let's hear what Emma
Speaker 1: and Andreas think about the energy transition in Europe and
Speaker 1: what really sounds out to them as they think about
Speaker 1: forecasting out and out. Emma, thank you for joining today.
Speaker 1: Hi Dana, thanks for having us. And Andreas, thank you
Speaker 1: for joining the show. So the basis of our discussion
Speaker 1: today is on the European energy transition. Outlook. Now, if
Speaker 1: you heard that and you're thinking maybe I don't care
Speaker 1: as much about Europe, I'm gonna log off. Now stay
Speaker 1: stay for a second. Let us just pitch you really
Speaker 1: quickly on why Europe is so important for us to
Speaker 1: actually think about as a case study for the rest
Speaker 1: of the world and also for those of us who
Speaker 1: are located in Europe as we chart the path forward
Speaker 1: in the energy transition. So let's start with my first question,
Speaker 1: which is essentially why do we write this report around
Speaker 1: the European energy transition and the outlook, specifically when we
Speaker 1: know we already do a new energy outlook which looks
Speaker 1: out to the year, which is global and pulls upon
Speaker 1: lots of different regions. I think that Europe has long
Speaker 1: been thought of as a front runner in the energy
Speaker 1: transition and is something of a special case when we
Speaker 1: do our long term analysis. For everyone listening, we've probably
Speaker 1: heard that the UK and the EU now have both
Speaker 1: legislated their targets to hit net zero emissions by twenty
Speaker 1: and that's a really big step change in the level
Speaker 1: of ambition that we've ever had for previous emissions reduction targets.
Speaker 1: It's come with significantly ramped up twenty thirty ambitions, so
Speaker 1: we actually have something toterial to say about the trajectory
Speaker 1: to get there. And then, of course, at the moment
Speaker 1: since these targets have been announced, the European region has
Speaker 1: actually faced several pretty significant crises. We had the COVID
Speaker 1: nineteen pandemic and the impact of the recovery from that
Speaker 1: on our global supply chains, the ongoing energy crisis today
Speaker 1: and the war in Ukraine is becoming really material for
Speaker 1: the transition risks around inflation and recession on people's minds
Speaker 1: at the moment a lot, and these carry really significant
Speaker 1: impacts when we think about the trajectory and the pace
Speaker 1: of the energy transition here in the region. So really
Speaker 1: the intention with this report is to really start to
Speaker 1: look at that more regional lens have a bit of
Speaker 1: color on how Europe can both diversify and decarbonize its
Speaker 1: energy system simultaneously. So yeah, figuring out essentially what that
Speaker 1: path to net zero looks like is the intention. And
Speaker 1: I think, especially in the context of Europe where perhaps
Speaker 1: these targets are a bit more material, the report's really
Speaker 1: funded and kind of starting to answer these questions. Before
Speaker 1: we take a look into the future, let's take a
Speaker 1: quick look back at what has happened in Europe in
Speaker 1: the past when it comes to climate policy. And I
Speaker 1: must say so, I'm from northern California, very beautiful part
Speaker 1: of the world. Actually map the valley, and oftentimes when
Speaker 1: I talk to people will say why did you move
Speaker 1: to London, Like what brought you here? And it was
Speaker 1: the energy transition, so over fifteen years ago when I
Speaker 1: moved here, it's because Europe was doing so much and
Speaker 1: had so many targets in place regarding decarbonization, that this
Speaker 1: was really the right place to be in terms of
Speaker 1: the energy transition, whereverything felt like it was happening. Not
Speaker 1: that California wasn't doing anything, but they weren't where Europe
Speaker 1: was at that time. So looking back a little bit,
Speaker 1: what has historically been europe stance from a policy standpoint
Speaker 1: regarding how the transition is taking place? Yeah, I could
Speaker 1: take this first and then maybe under I also have
Speaker 1: some thoughts at least the way that we've looked at
Speaker 1: it and being a Europe has really been a front
Speaker 1: runner and deploying clean power, so really ahead of the
Speaker 1: cub I think almost double the volume of any other
Speaker 1: region that we look at today in terms of wind
Speaker 1: and solar on the ground. And the power sector has
Speaker 1: really been the focus point right We're looking at not
Speaker 1: just renewables, but also ambitious targets to phase out call
Speaker 1: and deal with the electricity supply here and the next
Speaker 1: step from there. And we can kind of get to
Speaker 1: this a little bit later, because it really is central
Speaker 1: when we're thinking about net zero, but starting to look
Speaker 1: more ambitiously at things like the transport sector and heating
Speaker 1: and I think Europe still has a place as a
Speaker 1: front runner in looking at those other sectors that need
Speaker 1: to decarbonize in order to hit a fully netar energy system.
Speaker 1: And you know, Androws, you're joining us from Greece, so
Speaker 1: we're spanning the entire eastern and western side of Europe.
Speaker 1: When we're trying to sit here and naturally talk about
Speaker 1: the transition, and we're talking about it as a continent,
Speaker 1: which we know has a bunch of smaller, more regional
Speaker 1: markets in it. And andre As, would you say from
Speaker 1: your perspective that as we talk about the transition, that
Speaker 1: there are commonalities that we can draw from the different
Speaker 1: countries that do comprise Europe the continent. I think there
Speaker 1: are commonalities and differences and they all come up and
Speaker 1: they're very interesting to look at. I'd say there's a
Speaker 1: division in resource from north to south, with the north
Speaker 1: being wind rich and the south being sun rich, and
Speaker 1: consequently these two different parts of Europe concentrating on different resources.
Speaker 1: But then when you look at the totality of things,
Speaker 1: and this is what I like about studying Europe as
Speaker 1: a whole, is that actually the continent approaches the problem
Speaker 1: in a combined way. Even though you know, the historical
Speaker 1: data doesn't necessarily show them yet, and essentially there are
Speaker 1: thoughts about, Okay, how do we get wind from Denmark
Speaker 1: went from the UK all the way south to France,
Speaker 1: or how do we get sun from Spain and Italy
Speaker 1: all the way north to Denmark. However, we must not
Speaker 1: make this sound too romantic. There are still differences within
Speaker 1: Europe itself. You know, Greece, for example, is a little
Speaker 1: bit further back i'd take compared to other countries in
Speaker 1: the energy transition and especially in the harder to the
Speaker 1: carbonized sectors. I'd say policies only now catching up with
Speaker 1: the reality of targets. However, as a whole the continent
Speaker 1: and the European Unions specifically within that, it's definitely I'm
Speaker 1: moving in a direction that other parts of the world
Speaker 1: will soon have to start going towards. And I think
Speaker 1: this is what makes you a very interesting Let's get
Speaker 1: into what this looks like, so we do too scenarios
Speaker 1: as we're looking forward. One is the economic transition scenario
Speaker 1: and the second is the net zero scenario, and I
Speaker 1: think we'll probably spend more time focused on the second.
Speaker 1: But can you quickly just refresh everybody's memory. If you
Speaker 1: have been frequent listeners, to switch it on and if
Speaker 1: you're new here, then it will be worth the definition setting.
Speaker 1: What is the difference between the economic transition scenario and
Speaker 1: the net zero scenario. So the economic transition scenario really
Speaker 1: aims to look at creating a baseline and economics driven.
Speaker 1: You know, we look at the fundamentals and existing policies
Speaker 1: only where there's kind of a legislated mechanism for their implementation.
Speaker 1: So we do include things like the European carbon price
Speaker 1: and regulations that affect things like electric vehicles, but they
Speaker 1: do feed into the economics lead baseline, But fundamentally it
Speaker 1: is looking at how far the fundamentals get us. The
Speaker 1: net zerio scenario, by contrast, is much more driven by
Speaker 1: a carbon budget approach, so we actually force all energy
Speaker 1: consuming sectors in Europe to fully decarbonized by and to
Speaker 1: kind of bring that into context for everyone. That actually
Speaker 1: requires a tripling the pace of emissions reductions over the
Speaker 1: next three decades compared to the economic transition scenario. So
Speaker 1: it's really a much more aggressive trajectory for transition of
Speaker 1: all of the sectors and how we've actually kind of
Speaker 1: sold for the solution side of things in the net
Speaker 1: Zerio scenario is really by looking at two key kind
Speaker 1: of climate pathways electrification and green hydrogen, and those two solutions,
Speaker 1: which we can talk about in a little more depth,
Speaker 1: really enable Europe to kind of increase reliance on on
Speaker 1: domestic renewable energy sources and displace the need for fossil
Speaker 1: fuel in the primary energy mix. So that's helping those
Speaker 1: sectors like heating and transport which really rely on a
Speaker 1: lot of oil and gas, as well as industry which
Speaker 1: is relying on a lot of fossil fuel inputs. So
Speaker 1: that's kind of the key distinctions. But really the nets
Speaker 1: Aery scenario is kind of hinging on those those solutions.
Speaker 1: If I can add something about the scenarios is what
Speaker 1: I find interesting though, and we're increasingly going to see
Speaker 1: that in the Benet work and probably in other people's
Speaker 1: work as well, is that what I do expect is
Speaker 1: slowly the economic transition scenario and the net serious scenario
Speaker 1: will show convergence in future iterations, as for example, costs evolving,
Speaker 1: we get a better view on how we can decarbonize
Speaker 1: industry and we can dicarbonize transport, especially in the current
Speaker 1: commodity environment. It persists. Essentially, what high gas prices are
Speaker 1: telling us is electrification is one of the cheapest options
Speaker 1: out there, being hydrogen might become cheaper so much earlier.
Speaker 1: So even though we have two differend scenarios today, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't be surprised if in ten years dying we no
Speaker 1: longer have an economic transition Senator, because the economic transition
Speaker 1: senatia and the net serious Senator, maybe we don't have
Speaker 1: a net serious scenario. Don't know. Essentially, they say the
Speaker 1: same thing that that we we red some missions in
Speaker 1: the long term, and so the question then becomes, Okay,
Speaker 1: which are the nuances in the technologies that we choose?
Speaker 1: And I find that very interesting. I find it really
Speaker 1: interesting too, and I think in particular this green hydrogen
Speaker 1: aspect of it, where we're looking at the cost of
Speaker 1: hydrogen is being much higher than any of the other
Speaker 1: solutions that are out there, at least right now, and
Speaker 1: that is a space where Europe is actually a bit
Speaker 1: of a frontrunner in terms of how they're approaching hydrogen
Speaker 1: and potentially embracing it. Is a part of the energy
Speaker 1: max going forward. You explain a little bit about how
Speaker 1: Europe is looking at hydrogen in the energy make and
Speaker 1: how they in theory could potentially in this scenario look
Speaker 1: at hydrogen and the energy mix in order to get
Speaker 1: to net zero potentially sooner. So the Commission currently is
Speaker 1: actually looking a lot more seriously at green hydrogen as
Speaker 1: a solution a to kind of get gas out of
Speaker 1: the mix sooner so that they can really reduce that
Speaker 1: dependency on Russian imports. That's part of the kind of
Speaker 1: energy security strategy at the moment is putting renewables, including
Speaker 1: green hydrogen, front and center, and when when we're thinking
Speaker 1: about what that means for the time horizon, you know,
Speaker 1: it's clear that Europe is setting perry ambitious goals. They're
Speaker 1: looking at and nothing short of twenty million metric tons,
Speaker 1: which is double the volume of fossil hydrogen that the
Speaker 1: region currently uses and that they want to have as
Speaker 1: green as green hydrogen used by industries by So that's
Speaker 1: within this decade, and the requirements for the amount of
Speaker 1: production capacity you need to deliver that is is also
Speaker 1: quite quite steep. You know. I think when we think
Speaker 1: about the longer term and the role that hydrogen could
Speaker 1: play in a net zero economy in Europe. That's a
Speaker 1: really you know, at least the twenty horizon is a
Speaker 1: really accelerated step towards that goal. But we we actually
Speaker 1: do have a very important position for green hydrogen in
Speaker 1: the energy mix. In our net zero scenario, by twenty fifty,
Speaker 1: European final energy is twenty percent supplied by green hydrogen,
Speaker 1: which translates to a hundred million metric tons by twenty fifty.
Speaker 1: So you can think of that as going up to
Speaker 1: twenty and the Commission's target and then timsing that by
Speaker 1: five essentially by twenty fifty. So and I think, just
Speaker 1: stepping back ad been a minute. The reason that we
Speaker 1: need a molecule based fuel like green hydrogen is simply
Speaker 1: because there are those parts of the economy that can't
Speaker 1: be electrified easily or economically. And we also identify as
Speaker 1: andrea saluted to already that green hydrogen, how's the potential
Speaker 1: for cost reductions. So there are sectors including steel, cement, petrochemicals,
Speaker 1: even for some heating and buildings and power generation that
Speaker 1: it may become more interesting to use green hydrogen as
Speaker 1: a fuel and fossil fuels from the policy standpoint, hydrogen
Speaker 1: was already very much on the table before Russia invaded
Speaker 1: the Ukraine. Have you seen that markedly change since then? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's doubled. Essentially, we had a ten million
Speaker 1: ton target pre you two, and then that's doubled to
Speaker 1: twenty by I don't think the long term ambition has
Speaker 1: changed drastically for green hydrogen, but definitely this decade we're
Speaker 1: looking at, you know, to the point where the European
Speaker 1: Commission have essentially come out and said, we know we're
Speaker 1: not going to be able to deliver this much green
Speaker 1: hydrogen within Europe. We know that we're probably going to
Speaker 1: look for trading partners and bringing imports into the region.
Speaker 1: So that's something that we weren't expecting to be talking
Speaker 1: about until the twenty thirties, when you have a more
Speaker 1: mature hydrogen market starting to evolve, but the commissions trying
Speaker 1: to frontload a lot of that progress and market development
Speaker 1: in order to deliver on the on the phase out
Speaker 1: of GATH. And because you referenced that green hydrogen is
Speaker 1: specifically talked about a bit more, that requires a pretty
Speaker 1: big scale out of renewable energy and projects that maybe
Speaker 1: aren't necessarily even yet commissioned. So as we look at
Speaker 1: we mean what we're in two so we've got eight
Speaker 1: years to and we also know that from a temperature
Speaker 1: and warming situation, the sooner that we bring down emissions
Speaker 1: and there there are multiple different ways to get to
Speaker 1: net zero, and when we do it actually has the
Speaker 1: biggest impact on what that warming looks like. So the
Speaker 1: between here and twenty as opposed to between here and
Speaker 1: twenty fifty, that's shorter term that eight years. What needs
Speaker 1: to happen in terms of scale and build out, and
Speaker 1: what sort of signs are we seeing that things are accelerating.
Speaker 1: I think this is actually a moment to come back
Speaker 1: to the power sector, and I'd love Andreas to step
Speaker 1: in here as well, because really the power sector is
Speaker 1: going to be delivering a lot of the emissions reductions
Speaker 1: this decade. We talk about green hydrogen, realistically, the progress
Speaker 1: that really matters is in the power system, and I
Speaker 1: think with that in mind, were also can't deny that
Speaker 1: green hydrogen relies on further ambition in the power system.
Speaker 1: Electorallyzers will potentially have impacts for grids, and they will
Speaker 1: rely on additional wind and solar to actually supply the
Speaker 1: electricity to produce the hydrogen. So I think taking a
Speaker 1: step back and thinking about the level of ambition required
Speaker 1: to accelerate the transition for power this decade is really
Speaker 1: is really important. I agree with that in we are
Speaker 1: seeing it. We're seeing it in the dext we're seeing
Speaker 1: it in the models. I'd say, we're we're willing to
Speaker 1: see it. This is on the ground converted from ambitious
Speaker 1: targets and statements of politicians to actual action. But it's
Speaker 1: doing if you take a look at the energy transition,
Speaker 1: I mean, at the end of the day, it is
Speaker 1: widely agreed that you know, renewables in the form especially
Speaker 1: of wind and solar, maybe combined with some other technologies
Speaker 1: being nuclear or ccs, but in general, like low carbon
Speaker 1: or zero carbon electricity generation, it seems to be the
Speaker 1: answer no matter where where we look at. And so
Speaker 1: focusing the efforts on the power sector in the coming
Speaker 1: decade and essentially scaling up wind and solar capacity such
Speaker 1: that we can produce you know, around six or seventy
Speaker 1: percent of our electricity from renobos by is essentially the
Speaker 1: way forward. Because if you think about it, let's say
Speaker 1: that you want to produce hydrogen and there are a
Speaker 1: few options out there today. Even if you build electoralizers today,
Speaker 1: you would be producing emissions because you're powering it with
Speaker 1: a gas plant or with a cold but along with
Speaker 1: wind and solar. So if you don't transition your electricity grid,
Speaker 1: everything else you're doing on the back of that, it's
Speaker 1: just a step in the right direction, but incomplete, let's say,
Speaker 1: until the wind and solar is there. And this is
Speaker 1: why you know, again and again what we see in
Speaker 1: our models, what we've see in policies, that the big
Speaker 1: bed is what do we do? And this steel up
Speaker 1: is pretty big. I mean, we need to get in
Speaker 1: our economic transition scenario, we need to get about two
Speaker 1: hundred fifty gills wind and solar in Europe by twenty thirties.
Speaker 1: Just to put it into perspective, doubling the capacity. Our
Speaker 1: net zero scenario is across a little bit more two
Speaker 1: hundred and eighty gig awards by twenty thirty. These are
Speaker 1: like massive numbers. It took us twenty years to get here,
Speaker 1: and now in eight we need to do what we
Speaker 1: did in twenty that's a big bed. Yeah. I think
Speaker 1: Andrews is right that the level of ambition really does
Speaker 1: need to step up, and I think to some extent
Speaker 1: we do see that merrit in the policy. But I
Speaker 1: also think, you know, at least from when when we
Speaker 1: do our botteling and analysis, there are there are two
Speaker 1: things that I kind of hold out hope on. The
Speaker 1: first is that you know, it is already cheaper to
Speaker 1: build new winded solo plants today in Europe than it
Speaker 1: is to run those existing cold and gas plants. You
Speaker 1: know that, and not fundamental gap is widening even further
Speaker 1: because of the current situation with commodity prices, so that
Speaker 1: that it's clear from the economics that this makes sense now.
Speaker 1: And Andrea's is right to a point that actually just
Speaker 1: getting projects on the ground, figuring out how to make
Speaker 1: the permitting processes in Europe as easy as possible is
Speaker 1: going to be the next kind of logical step. The
Speaker 1: second thing that I've actually quite recently been been sharing
Speaker 1: with some of our team is that when when we
Speaker 1: kind of I guess the term is like back test,
Speaker 1: are are models from from the past, and we look
Speaker 1: at the renewable energy deployments in Europe that have been
Speaker 1: achieved compared to what our models have anticipated, We've actually
Speaker 1: often either been on the mark or even conservative. So
Speaker 1: I kind of hold out hope that even though people
Speaker 1: sometimes you know, raise their eyebrows when they see the
Speaker 1: volumes that we're saying makes sense from a cost perspective
Speaker 1: in terms of, you know, solving for the power system,
Speaker 1: they you know, I think there's actually hoped that our
Speaker 1: scenarios that we're developing are actually showing where what the
Speaker 1: cheapest system is and that's a compelling narrative both for
Speaker 1: consumers and companies on for government. So I think the
Speaker 1: leve and of ambition is steep, but I have there
Speaker 1: is a lot of discussion at the moment though, around
Speaker 1: how the economics of the energy transition. We're reaching a
Speaker 1: crunch point where if we just trusted the economics, we're
Speaker 1: not going to get to net zero by and that
Speaker 1: we actually need to really focus on forcing certain things
Speaker 1: to happen and then driving those costs down and and
Speaker 1: having the complexity of the energy mix actually embrace all
Speaker 1: of these different aspects, some of which are economically very competitive,
Speaker 1: others which are not so. On that beyond the power system,
Speaker 1: which we've acknowledged does need to be decarbonized quite quickly
Speaker 1: and have a lot of attention given to it. What
Speaker 1: are the other ways? And I know that this is
Speaker 1: a very complex question, so I'm asking you to then
Speaker 1: essentially pick winners. And I know nobody ever like through
Speaker 1: this and oversimplify, but you've taken a look at Europe
Speaker 1: on the whole. So which sector or I'll let you
Speaker 1: have two, Which sector yours should we look to decarbonize
Speaker 1: first beyond the power sector if we want to fully decarbonize.
Speaker 1: The challenges that we're seeing beyond power really stem from
Speaker 1: and I think the most useful exercise when we're thinking
Speaker 1: about this question really is looking at the difference between
Speaker 1: our economic transition scenario in the next serio scenario. What
Speaker 1: are the biggest differences? Okay, we have probably you know,
Speaker 1: close to double the need for electric vehicles compared to
Speaker 1: what we're getting to in our economic transition scenario and
Speaker 1: the next zero scenario. The sector that concerns me the
Speaker 1: most as buildings, because it's a very highly distributed, very
Speaker 1: difficult to decarbonized sector that relies on solutions such as
Speaker 1: heat pumps, which you know, perhaps the economics are starting
Speaker 1: to make more sense given the current crazy energy costs
Speaker 1: that consumers are facing but that's not really an ideal
Speaker 1: situation to to have economics makes sense for heat pumps.
Speaker 1: So I think that the gap for buildings, the gap
Speaker 1: for it transport is especially the heavier duty segments of transport.
Speaker 1: And then industry Europe has actually started already. You know,
Speaker 1: industry is covered by our by our carbon price, but
Speaker 1: for a long time it has been subject to pretty
Speaker 1: generous reallocation, which essentially means they don't end up paying
Speaker 1: the full they're not really exposed to the full carbon
Speaker 1: price in a meaningful sense. And there are meaningful discussions
Speaker 1: now to phase that out and figure out ways to
Speaker 1: still keep industry within Europe. And I think that discussion
Speaker 1: will be really important. Where I see risks is that,
Speaker 1: especially in light of today's energy crisis, the momentum to
Speaker 1: try and phase out gas potentially instead of making progress
Speaker 1: faster on things like coal will have will have an
Speaker 1: impact on on which sectors actually get priority for de
Speaker 1: carbonizing sooner. So that's that's one tension. I suppose that
Speaker 1: we can say we notice when we compare something like
Speaker 1: our nets aero scenario, which really prioritizes, you know, the
Speaker 1: most economic sectors to transition first, based on the solutions
Speaker 1: that are available and the on the emissions impact versus
Speaker 1: something like the current situation placed by Europe where you
Speaker 1: really are trying to do two things at once. Essentially,
Speaker 1: andre s do you have winners? I'm going to go
Speaker 1: back to my my playbook, which is which is power?
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, the more the more I
Speaker 1: look at this, the more I realize that, well, all
Speaker 1: the answers get back to the power sector. I mean
Speaker 1: more our lead European parents got up all biased in
Speaker 1: coming to this conclusion. But I do like what I
Speaker 1: see on the ground. I'd say, maybe one thought to
Speaker 1: throughout here the Emma said, how like the current energy
Speaker 1: crisis is shifting attention to displacing gas maybe before displacing cold,
Speaker 1: and in a way, I, you know, I do see
Speaker 1: the negative effector on the other I think it's quite
Speaker 1: clear in the minds of people today that call is
Speaker 1: something needs to go. So the big question we used
Speaker 1: to come up against in the past, and in a
Speaker 1: way we come up against in the e t O.
Speaker 1: Considering that a lot of the work was done before
Speaker 1: the Russian invasion of Ukraine and repower you essentially, you know,
Speaker 1: you do all this s effort to the carbonized school,
Speaker 1: and then everyone kind of used to go mute on
Speaker 1: gas and be like, Okay, it's a clear fuel, we'll
Speaker 1: keep it around for longer. What I think the current
Speaker 1: energy crisis is going to do and the crunch is
Speaker 1: essentially gonna say, we're gonna in induce Europe to also
Speaker 1: take care of gas and not go risk entering a
Speaker 1: trap where it says like, all right, I took care
Speaker 1: of coal. Now I can kind of like sit back
Speaker 1: because I really reduced my missions. I mean a bit
Speaker 1: of what we saw happening in the US about ten
Speaker 1: years ago, right where core plants closed because gas became economic,
Speaker 1: and then people were like, yeah, we've reduced emissions more
Speaker 1: than our European counterparts. We've been subsidizing rhables for ten years,
Speaker 1: and so we can sit and enjoy the spoils of
Speaker 1: war for a little bit. And and there was a
Speaker 1: risk of that. So I'd say there is a positive
Speaker 1: in that as well, in the call is on the
Speaker 1: way out one way or another, and so dealing with
Speaker 1: gas through things like hydrogen through heat pomps for home heating,
Speaker 1: I think is a step in the right direction that
Speaker 1: was probably missing and it's where the economics don't work.
Speaker 1: I mean, Emma said earlier, right, power sector economics make
Speaker 1: a perfect sense. You don't really need to worry about
Speaker 1: hydrogen for another ten years in power and you really
Speaker 1: get that far in the power sector that it's you know,
Speaker 1: at that point by twenty thirty five, you really need
Speaker 1: to focus your attention somewhere else. And it's good to
Speaker 1: see that we're focusing about attention somewhere else today such
Speaker 1: that in twenty five we don't need to worry about
Speaker 1: sending that last emission out of the system, and instead
Speaker 1: we can focus on the carbonizing other sectors that can
Speaker 1: really have an impact. And I think just to add
Speaker 1: to that and the point that kind of all roads
Speaker 1: are kind of pointing back to the power sector, we
Speaker 1: do identify in the report quite a significant challenge when
Speaker 1: it comes to decar but like deep decarbonization of the
Speaker 1: power system. You know, if you're relying on electricity to
Speaker 1: decarbonize things like heating and transport, that that does have
Speaker 1: meaningful impacts for how the power system will evolve and
Speaker 1: look like in the future. And then how do you
Speaker 1: create you know, incentives for the clean backup capacity that
Speaker 1: you need when the wind and soda generation isn't around.
Speaker 1: I know Andrea's has done a lot of work on
Speaker 1: this over the last two years or so, and this
Speaker 1: is something that we're increasingly looking at. We look at
Speaker 1: hydrogen as one of those potential solutions, but there there
Speaker 1: are a number of flexibility solutions that could also come
Speaker 1: into the space and really shape, really make an impact
Speaker 1: on how the power system evolves. Hydrogen keeps coming up
Speaker 1: as one of these potential solutions, and there are kind
Speaker 1: of two questions around this that I have. One actually
Speaker 1: is around the emissions associated with hydrogen. So we know
Speaker 1: that gas is cleaner than coal, and so there was
Speaker 1: a transition to that at one point in a big
Speaker 1: discussion around how gas actually burns so much cleaner and
Speaker 1: is this better option? And now we've moved away from
Speaker 1: gas and the associated emissions and are starting to talk
Speaker 1: about hydrogen more. It is still not absolute zero. It's
Speaker 1: net zero that we're headed towards. So invariably some level
Speaker 1: of emissions will be tolerated. And in this cleaner, greener
Speaker 1: fifty year out in the future that I hope we
Speaker 1: all reach, will the emissions associated with hydrogen still be
Speaker 1: tolerated when we get there, or will that then become
Speaker 1: something that we will need to transition off of with
Speaker 1: better solutions in the future. We love capped the production
Speaker 1: of hydrogen in the report in two different ways, so
Speaker 1: Europe can go fully green. It can just use wind
Speaker 1: and soda to produce green hydrogen using electrolysis, and that
Speaker 1: we find essentially requires nothing short of one point five
Speaker 1: terra wants of additional wind and solar, which is close
Speaker 1: to doubling what we need for the power system, so
Speaker 1: it's it's a massive amount of additional renewable energy passed
Speaker 1: you need. Of course, Europe could explore options with importing hydrogen.
Speaker 1: There then become questions around how do you how do
Speaker 1: you regulate and standardize, make sure that you know that
Speaker 1: that hydrogen is green, and how do you make sure
Speaker 1: that the transporting it around is green. All of those
Speaker 1: considerations to take into effect I think I think will
Speaker 1: become a material in the future, especially if there are
Speaker 1: constraints to actually delivering all of the green hydrogen needs
Speaker 1: in the in the region domestically. We also did look
Speaker 1: at another way that Europe could produce green hydrogen, and
Speaker 1: that's for electorallyzers to also use some of the you know,
Speaker 1: would be wasted wind and solar generation on the grid.
Speaker 1: So essentially we looked at the curtailment profiles from our
Speaker 1: power system modeling and essentially concluded that that can help
Speaker 1: to reduce by about three gig or what's the need
Speaker 1: for additional wind and solar capacity. The constraint there is
Speaker 1: that there is only so much energy that gets wasted
Speaker 1: from the power system, and you know, you can't just
Speaker 1: rely on that to produce zero emissions hydrogen. So there
Speaker 1: is a risk, as you rightly point out, data that
Speaker 1: during that transition, if we have grid connected electrolyzers, it's
Speaker 1: very difficult to be certain that they won't be using
Speaker 1: fossil fuel electrons during the time, you know, during the
Speaker 1: transition period. And and actually certifying that that is that
Speaker 1: that is green is is becoming an increasingly important consideration,
Speaker 1: not just for people like US modeling modeling this, but
Speaker 1: also for investors that are looking at these projects and
Speaker 1: wanting to be sure that you know, the hydrogen that
Speaker 1: their projects want to produce will be able to be
Speaker 1: labeled as green. I think here just to add is
Speaker 1: the importance of actually delivering on the carbonization of the
Speaker 1: power sector, right Like people are worried about how hydrogen
Speaker 1: will be produced and whether it's green or not. I'd say,
Speaker 1: if we're producing it with electricity, it's a big first
Speaker 1: step forward. And then we need to make sure we
Speaker 1: delivered the green electrons, that this hydrogen needs to be green.
Speaker 1: And I'd say, I'd say again, you know, of course
Speaker 1: there there are costs involved in all of that, but
Speaker 1: it all comes back to exactly this question, right like
Speaker 1: how easy or hard? And you know, we started from
Speaker 1: this how easy or hard is it to build renewables
Speaker 1: in Europe today? And and what sense does it make
Speaker 1: to building yourbles economically or not? In the answer is
Speaker 1: it does make sense economically, and so we need to
Speaker 1: look at the other problems that surrounded the sector, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, we've heard them many times, permitting and and
Speaker 1: land use and all of that that might limit how
Speaker 1: much wind and solar we we might send. One of
Speaker 1: the favorite things that I've heard from people in the
Speaker 1: industry who really like dealt with the question of like
Speaker 1: where you're building in newables and how it's like everyone
Speaker 1: is in favor of renews everyone, right, like in Europe especially,
Speaker 1: people love renewables until you build them next to their house,
Speaker 1: and then they all become the most staunch anti environmentals.
Speaker 1: Now that's a bit cynical, of course, as of you,
Speaker 1: but it's it's widely too and and in a way,
Speaker 1: I'd say that's that's the big question, right, how do
Speaker 1: we unlock the renewable revolution in the electricity grid such
Speaker 1: that we can then safely shift our transportation are heating
Speaker 1: our hydrogen to the power sector. Well, when you bring
Speaker 1: that up to the renewables and the nimbiism that not
Speaker 1: in my backyard, folks, not wanting it necessarily near them.
Speaker 1: Is it going to be possible to find all the
Speaker 1: places that we need in order to build out renewables,
Speaker 1: not just to electrify certain parts of the industry, but
Speaker 1: then also to create all of the hydrogen we need?
Speaker 1: And what are the web use constraints that were really
Speaker 1: looking at in what is reasonably densely populated part of
Speaker 1: the world. We actually answer this question. We looked at
Speaker 1: why you're will actually need to deploy on shore wind
Speaker 1: and PV to produce all of that clean electricity and
Speaker 1: green hydrogen in the net zero and we conclude that
Speaker 1: the land requirement is about three percent of land use,
Speaker 1: up from just nor point to percent used for technologies
Speaker 1: like conshore wind and PV. That's kind of putting it
Speaker 1: into context. Three percent of land. What does that roughly represent.
Speaker 1: It's slightly around the mark where the roads kind of
Speaker 1: use this amount of land use today. So this isn't
Speaker 1: an impossible amount. You know, development of this size is
Speaker 1: not inconceivable, but it will be really important to you know,
Speaker 1: keep evaluating how public acceptance of renewables evolved, and it's
Speaker 1: actually becoming more important in certain regions where the renewable
Speaker 1: energy saturation is getting higher. So we we we have
Speaker 1: looked at what a land constrained scenario for Europe would
Speaker 1: look like, and we do find that in total we
Speaker 1: end up with quite a sizeable amount less on shore
Speaker 1: wind I think around two hundred gigs and instead around
Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty gig. What's more offshore wind, because
Speaker 1: that's the next cheapest kind of technology to deploy kind
Speaker 1: of bulk electricity to the grid. So that's the first thing,
Speaker 1: is that really this the land constraints when we when
Speaker 1: we consider them, really impact onshore wind. Now the regional
Speaker 1: implications aren't evenly distributed either, So Germany and Italy were
Speaker 1: both the most heavily impacted. In our land constraints scenario,
Speaker 1: we found that offshore wind in Germany delivered nearly half
Speaker 1: of all their power by and that's compared to just
Speaker 1: fifteen percent in our net zero scenario without those land
Speaker 1: constraints in place. Another kind of risk is that we
Speaker 1: found in that scenario that Germany actually relied on more
Speaker 1: gas in the near term because of the slower rollout
Speaker 1: of onshore renewal bals and a longer time needed to
Speaker 1: allow offshore wind to scale and bridge that gap. So
Speaker 1: I think you know, when we when we're thinking about
Speaker 1: land constraints and how this plays out in the near term,
Speaker 1: really that the onshore, the onshore renewables are going to
Speaker 1: be absolutely critical to really squeezing out the thermal generation
Speaker 1: mixing that's needed to kind of meet the current targets
Speaker 1: that Europe is setting. And speaking of constraints, all of
Speaker 1: this is going to take money. So let's talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about investment. Do we see signals that the
Speaker 1: finance community is essentially looking to invest in these sorts
Speaker 1: of projects and what does that mean in the near
Speaker 1: term and what does that mean in the longer term.
Speaker 1: I mean, are we seeing signs that this is a
Speaker 1: space where there is a good amount of investment flooding
Speaker 1: into it. I'd say they are not here. The signals
Speaker 1: are somewhat mixed, at least at the moment. For a
Speaker 1: very long time, Europe has relied on subsidies right then,
Speaker 1: So in that sense, it's very hard to get a
Speaker 1: clear view on what has been driving investment in the
Speaker 1: renewable sector because who doesn't want in a way. I'm
Speaker 1: not going to call it free money, but you know,
Speaker 1: it's a relatively safe return, and if you know what
Speaker 1: you're doing in Europe, you could lock in a good
Speaker 1: return with you know, good fifteen years subsidutes. Now, subsidies
Speaker 1: in Europe are not necessarily going away, but they're changing
Speaker 1: in nature and how they're delivered. In Germany, for example,
Speaker 1: they're given as a top up to the power price,
Speaker 1: or you're exposed to the power price, and it makes
Speaker 1: some occasions we've seen projects going and bid zero, you know,
Speaker 1: they want to zero top up so they have a
Speaker 1: full exposure to the market. And in Spain we're seeing
Speaker 1: a lot of private interest in building projects without the need,
Speaker 1: without you know, subsidies backing them, and instead going straight
Speaker 1: to the market and maybe signing a power purchase agreement
Speaker 1: with a court, you know, with a company that takes
Speaker 1: the power. But in general, I would say, you know,
Speaker 1: we need around five point three trillion dollars in investment
Speaker 1: over the coming three decades deliver on the net zero scenario.
Speaker 1: So that's quite a bit of money. And when we
Speaker 1: look at our power price modeling analysis, what we find
Speaker 1: is that the long thought of you know, kind of
Speaker 1: short term contracts maybe one to three years out, a
Speaker 1: lot of reliance on spot markets and all that just
Speaker 1: doesn't doesn't make the cut. You do need to create
Speaker 1: that longer term price stability to drive the investment forward.
Speaker 1: And this is in a way where what subject is
Speaker 1: also showed is that people want long term stability. So
Speaker 1: I'd say for the time being, the investment interest is
Speaker 1: there and the money is going in there even where
Speaker 1: when no subjecties are involved. Part of the spike could
Speaker 1: is also attributable to the rising in carbon prices over
Speaker 1: the last few years and now some commodity prices that
Speaker 1: is essentially making the power market a very attractive place
Speaker 1: to go, even if you don't have some kind of
Speaker 1: price stability into the future. We're doing some analysis in
Speaker 1: Spain today essentially cutting off three or four years from
Speaker 1: your investment horizon just by like being online this year
Speaker 1: or last year due to the high prices. But at
Speaker 1: some point we're gonna have to see a shift towards
Speaker 1: longer term thinking and the the the options there, i'd say,
Speaker 1: are a bit mixed. You could have a more market
Speaker 1: based approach, whereby governments don't intervene and essentially the market
Speaker 1: is left to find what length of contracts are needed
Speaker 1: and how many of them and for what portion of
Speaker 1: your project output. Or you could have more centralized approaches
Speaker 1: such as continued options for subsidies and maybe capacity mechanisms,
Speaker 1: and and the jury is still out on which one
Speaker 1: is better. Probably the centralized mechanisms run by governments delivered targets,
Speaker 1: you know, deliver on targets in a more consistent way,
Speaker 1: and the volume, let's say, is in control of centralized planners.
Speaker 1: But it creates a little bit of a dependence on
Speaker 1: the system, you know, kind of like it's very hard
Speaker 1: to shake that off. The alternative to kind of like
Speaker 1: incentivize the industry to take a more long term view,
Speaker 1: which for a long time they haven't done. And the
Speaker 1: reasons are are many, and Beno has analyzed them. But
Speaker 1: incentivizing the industry to take a long term view would
Speaker 1: then create a sustainable environment where this system just propagates
Speaker 1: itself forward and investment becomes a private enterprise with little
Speaker 1: to no government intervention. And it's primarily driven by the
Speaker 1: fact that building then yourbles is cheaper and there is
Speaker 1: a way to also meet them repay for themselves, right
Speaker 1: because now they're cheaper, but people struggle to see, Okay,
Speaker 1: how do we pay for them? And and I say
Speaker 1: that that's where markets come in, and the good market
Speaker 1: design is is important in also making them financially sustainable.
Speaker 1: And just to kind of underscore the fact that in
Speaker 1: order to get that five point three trillion invested in
Speaker 1: in the nets aeria scenario that we identify as needed
Speaker 1: for that's just for the clean energy supply, so that's
Speaker 1: your power and green hydrogen capex needs that will rely
Speaker 1: on those really robust investment signals, which, as Andrea said,
Speaker 1: is fundamentally the market design and the investment frameworks that
Speaker 1: are in that are in place, and I don't think
Speaker 1: in my time at be enough, I've ever been in
Speaker 1: such an environment where this has been under the microscope
Speaker 1: so severely. You know, the the energy crisis is exposing
Speaker 1: some of the challenges of the market in its current design,
Speaker 1: particularly for for wholesale electricity and gas prices, and I
Speaker 1: think questions around reform and regulatory interventions are still very
Speaker 1: much influx, and we're going to be having to follow
Speaker 1: this super closely because it will affect all of those,
Speaker 1: um you know, all of those factors that go into
Speaker 1: driving investment into clean technologies, and I think will be
Speaker 1: a really hopefully something that can help accelerate the move
Speaker 1: towards as Andre has mentioned, the long time pricing and
Speaker 1: signals that you need in order to actually get projects
Speaker 1: on the ground. Yeah, hopefully it ends up in that direction,
Speaker 1: but I think there are risks that we go back
Speaker 1: to more heavy handed regulatory interventions that maybe create distortive
Speaker 1: effects or or maybe hinder hinder the transition in ways
Speaker 1: that we can't really anticipate just yet. So let's say
Speaker 1: I'm in another part of the world and I am
Speaker 1: not part of the European system. What is it that
Speaker 1: I'm looking at most closely. Is it the market design
Speaker 1: question that you just brought up, or is it the
Speaker 1: technology and the l c o E declines for certain
Speaker 1: technologies that are being invested in more heavily in Europe?
Speaker 1: What is it that I am watching most closely? If
Speaker 1: I were in the America's or in the Asia Pacific area,
Speaker 1: I think it's gas. Honestly, I think that's time everyone
Speaker 1: is fast needed by the gas discussion that's playing out
Speaker 1: and how your steps away from its reliance on particularly
Speaker 1: those Russian imports. I agree with gas and call maybe
Speaker 1: being the two things that people look at, but either
Speaker 1: to say something also that maybe it's a little bit
Speaker 1: older news but still very relevant, which is not. Denmark
Speaker 1: two years ago hit something like renewable energy. The UK
Speaker 1: with its officure wind rollout is I'm going to see
Speaker 1: a very big increase in order like getting to six
Speaker 1: renewable energy by twenty thirty. So if I'm looking at
Speaker 1: Europe from the outside, I'd say, how are they making
Speaker 1: it work? How are they making these systems remain stable,
Speaker 1: deliver the power that that they need while also kind
Speaker 1: of the carbonizing and and I'd say for some time
Speaker 1: to come, Europe will remain at the forefront of kind
Speaker 1: of like setting records for you know, shares of electricity
Speaker 1: meeting shares of renewable EA, tristy meeting demand going from
Speaker 1: a dred percent over one day to a percent over
Speaker 1: one week, to a percent over one month, and so
Speaker 1: on and so forth. And I think that is a
Speaker 1: very interesting and important dynamic to to keep an eye
Speaker 1: out for because it's also one of the biggest criticism
Speaker 1: for in yours how do we go from one to thirty? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think offshore wind, especially from the policy perspective,
Speaker 1: is increasingly that solution. That's the kind of the go
Speaker 1: to for the post. I don't time frame. You know,
Speaker 1: we've we've just had that announcement for the fifty gig
Speaker 1: of what's in the UK, and that's you know that
Speaker 1: that is a really sizeable ramp up in ambition from
Speaker 1: just the thirty gig and what's two years ago and
Speaker 1: forty gigo what target that they said a year ago?
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think I think Andreas is right that
Speaker 1: that that is one of the hottest areas I guess
Speaker 1: to be to be looking at. So this is now
Speaker 1: an annual report that served second time running it correct
Speaker 1: it is, Yeah, what other parts of the world and
Speaker 1: other teams are also doing an energy transition outlove Now,
Speaker 1: you know, we don't have a plan to formalize the
Speaker 1: publication for other regions yet, but I really hope that
Speaker 1: we can develop and use this kind of methodology to
Speaker 1: really add that regional color to how we develop on
Speaker 1: net s aerio scenarios. I know that's going to be
Speaker 1: a really important dimension to how our new energy outlook evolved.
Speaker 1: I think in America's energy transition outlook would be super cool.
Speaker 1: I'd love to also start exploring the regions that maybe
Speaker 1: are less well served by by enough coverage, so really
Speaker 1: modeling things market like South Africa. I think that would
Speaker 1: be that would be really interesting to start thinking about
Speaker 1: their long term transition pathways, just because it looks so
Speaker 1: fundamentally different to what we have in Europe. And while
Speaker 1: they can take advantage of some of the solutions that
Speaker 1: we have, there are other things that are constraints that
Speaker 1: you know, the sectors in these regions face that we
Speaker 1: just don't have head So final question, and I know
Speaker 1: the Russian invasion of the Ukraine came up several times
Speaker 1: in the podcast today, and one of the things they
Speaker 1: all of Europe is thinking about will this accelerate or
Speaker 1: decelerate the energy transition. Many people are very much focused
Speaker 1: on the fact that, you know, wind and solar is
Speaker 1: a way to reduce reliance on gas and therefore imports.
Speaker 1: But equally there are policy decisions that are being made
Speaker 1: right now in order to bring costs down and also
Speaker 1: find imports from other parts of the world, and invariably
Speaker 1: with inflation at such high levels, that is part of
Speaker 1: the role of government to look at it. So if
Speaker 1: you had to look into the future, and I know
Speaker 1: that this is just an opinion and an educated guests,
Speaker 1: do you think that the current political climate, in particular
Speaker 1: with what's happening in Ukraine, is this going to accelerate
Speaker 1: or decelerate the energy transition in Europe? I think this
Speaker 1: accelerates things from renewal balls and as we've kind of
Speaker 1: laid out earlier, there's so many signs pointing to scaling
Speaker 1: the sector and there are real barriers, but I think
Speaker 1: that this is good news for for renewables. Where I
Speaker 1: think there are risks is you know, we're we're looking
Speaker 1: at a situation where the European Commission's plans essentially could
Speaker 1: result in a dampening of the carbon price, which could
Speaker 1: essentially result in more coal used to alleviate the need
Speaker 1: for gas. So on the emission side of things, that's
Speaker 1: not great. And I think the tension there between okay,
Speaker 1: great for more renewables, but in terms of the trajectory
Speaker 1: for for the reliance on other things like coal in
Speaker 1: the meantime is is going to be tricky to square.
Speaker 1: So I think this accelerates certain parts of the transition certainly.
Speaker 1: And I think the attention that now things like gas
Speaker 1: boilers are getting pacing pacing out gas boiler isn't instead
Speaker 1: putting heat pumps in that that's something that's needed to
Speaker 1: come on the agenda for a long time. And I
Speaker 1: think that those those things, if the right policies of
Speaker 1: all comes in place, could be an accelerator. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it's very mixed and difficult to judge because of the
Speaker 1: volatility that the market is currently in. I personally say
Speaker 1: that without necessarily trying to look into the future, I'll
Speaker 1: try to look at what has changed quickly over the
Speaker 1: last let's say six months to a year, and the
Speaker 1: one big shift that I saw, and I saw it
Speaker 1: during the the energy price crisis as well as the
Speaker 1: one that the high gas prices started and power prices
Speaker 1: started following, And I was like, oh, yeah, it's gas,
Speaker 1: but it's also wind, and I will get furious with that,
Speaker 1: and if I keep on talking about that, that we'll
Speaker 1: get furious on the podcast as well. So I'm gonna
Speaker 1: stop there. But I used to tell people it's a
Speaker 1: gas story. This whole wind thing is just like a
Speaker 1: smoke screen. As time has gone by, I feel like
Speaker 1: that conversation around the fault of wind in the high
Speaker 1: power prices has subsided, if not gone away completely, and
Speaker 1: instead now a lot of people are saying, oh, we
Speaker 1: told you if we built more renewables, we'd be somewhat
Speaker 1: more shielded today. And in a way, also another conversation
Speaker 1: has shifted around the long term pricing, which was one
Speaker 1: of the mechanics pricing mechanism that I was talking around earlier.
Speaker 1: A lot of people say, like, look, if we're building
Speaker 1: renewables with twenty year contracts, fixed price contracts right now,
Speaker 1: they would have to sell us electricity at a low price,
Speaker 1: even though power prices at the moment are you know,
Speaker 1: three or four times or or six times in some
Speaker 1: places historical averages. So from that point of view, I'd
Speaker 1: say there's been a shift, a positive shift towards unwables,
Speaker 1: which I think personally was needed and in the long
Speaker 1: term it's going to create the stability. I share Emma's
Speaker 1: concern around the core increased colburn, but I think that
Speaker 1: if we stick behind the renewable growth, having a little
Speaker 1: bit more call for four or five years, it's actually
Speaker 1: be overall cheaper. I'm gonna leave us more resources to
Speaker 1: the carbonize than if we went from a cold to
Speaker 1: gas transition only to then go from a gas to
Speaker 1: renewable transition. So I'd say my message is positive there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I actually love that, Andreas. I was on my community
Speaker 1: this morning. I literally saw a an ad that had
Speaker 1: six words on it and it said when does cheap
Speaker 1: gas is expensive? And it's an ad for like one
Speaker 1: of the renewable energy supplies here in the UK, And
Speaker 1: I think that that kind of says that all that
Speaker 1: that momentum shift and even in the public I now
Speaker 1: is coming on the fact that we would be less
Speaker 1: shielded from from this crisis had we I'm gone faster
Speaker 1: on renewables and those that have higher exposure to renewables
Speaker 1: are actually kind of coping with things a little bit better.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that's a really that's a really
Speaker 1: important point to end on. Well, on that note, we'll
Speaker 1: see what the future holds, and thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining today. Thank you Dana again in ten years
Speaker 1: and reportantly. We're going to come back again next year
Speaker 1: and tell us what's happened with the energetic Definitely be
Speaker 1: a big year from a policy standpoint, I'm sure, but no,
Speaker 1: I think so. I think so. Today's episode of Switched
Speaker 1: On was edited by Rex Warner of gray Stoke Media.
Speaker 1: Bloomberg an e F as a service provided by Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Finance LP and its affiliates. This recording does not constitute,
Speaker 1: nor should it be construed as investment advice, investment recommendations,
Speaker 1: or recommendation as to an investment or other strategy. Bloomberg
Speaker 1: an e F should not be considered as information sufficient
Speaker 1: upon which to base an investment decision. Neither Bloomberg Finance
Speaker 1: LP nor any of its affiliates makes any representation or
Speaker 1: warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of the information
Speaker 1: contained in this recording, and any liability of this recording
Speaker 1: is expressly disclaimed.