WEBVTT - How Animal Experiments Are Fueling China’s Biotech Rise

0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:07.200
<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:12.600
<v Speaker 2>Brian Wallach is forty five years old, a husband and

0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:15.440
<v Speaker 2>a father of two. For much of his life, he

0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:19.200
<v Speaker 2>worked as a lawyer and political organizer, even serving as

0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:23.479
<v Speaker 2>White House counsel under President Barack Obama. But eight years

0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.640
<v Speaker 2>ago he received a devastating diagnosis.

0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:30.880
<v Speaker 3>I was diagnosed with ALS in twenty seventeen at the

0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:31.880
<v Speaker 3>age of thirty seven.

0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:34.360
<v Speaker 4>My wife, Sandra, and I.

0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:37.360
<v Speaker 3>Had just brought our second daughter home when we received

0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:38.040
<v Speaker 3>the news.

0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:43.000
<v Speaker 2>ALS, known widely as lou Gehrig's disease, is a neurodegenerative

0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:47.720
<v Speaker 2>disorder where motor neurons are gradually lost, leading patients to

0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:49.879
<v Speaker 2>slowly lose control of their bodies.

0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:53.479
<v Speaker 3>For me, this has meant a gradual loss of my

0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:56.560
<v Speaker 3>ability to walk, use my hands, and speak.

0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:00.279
<v Speaker 2>At the time, Brian was given six months to live.

0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:02.360
<v Speaker 4>I couldn't accept that timeline.

0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:06.360
<v Speaker 3>Instead, I chose to fight with everything I had to

0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:06.880
<v Speaker 3>change it.

0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:09.560
<v Speaker 4>Eight years later, I'm still here.

0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:15.000
<v Speaker 2>Today. Brian and his wife Sandra are advocates for the

0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:19.160
<v Speaker 2>more than thirty thousand Americans living with ALS. They founded

0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:22.920
<v Speaker 2>the nonprofit I Am ALS in part to advocate for

0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:26.759
<v Speaker 2>research funding for cure, and some of the most exciting

0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:30.080
<v Speaker 2>als research to date is coming out of China.

0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:34.160
<v Speaker 1>China is trying to have the companies do something that

0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:37.600
<v Speaker 1>nobody in the world has ever done. That is China's goal,

0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:41.000
<v Speaker 1>like to be a global bow tech leader.

0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:45.960
<v Speaker 2>That's Bloomberg's Asia Health reporter Carolyn Khan Jesus. China is

0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:50.480
<v Speaker 2>taking a controversial approach to finding cures to diseases like als.

0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:55.080
<v Speaker 1>China sees gene editing in animals as one of the

0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:58.640
<v Speaker 1>key aspects of bow tech development.

0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:02.520
<v Speaker 2>Gene editing. The US and Europe take a strict approach

0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:07.200
<v Speaker 2>to gene editing animals, in particular large animals like pigs, monkeys,

0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:11.239
<v Speaker 2>and dogs, but as China's biotech industry grows, its use

0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:14.239
<v Speaker 2>of gene edited large animals has expanded.

0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:18.080
<v Speaker 1>So for years, this professor that Eachang at Siwa University

0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:22.120
<v Speaker 1>was studying to find a solution to als, and his

0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:26.760
<v Speaker 1>lab was making als animal models. First, they were putting

0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:30.519
<v Speaker 1>the disease into mice, but mice didn't show any symptoms.

0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:34.040
<v Speaker 1>It never worked down mice, but then he gene edited

0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:37.959
<v Speaker 1>a pig. The pig developed symptoms of ALS and then

0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:42.480
<v Speaker 1>died about a year later. This was significant because Professor

0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:46.320
<v Speaker 1>that Eichan was able to replicate a human disease into

0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:50.720
<v Speaker 1>a big animal, which allows drug developers and scientists to

0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:52.400
<v Speaker 1>test the full side effects.

0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:56.000
<v Speaker 2>By comparing the pig's reaction to that of mice models,

0:02:56.160 --> 0:03:00.240
<v Speaker 2>John discovered a clue a gene acting uniquely in the

0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:03.200
<v Speaker 2>mice that led to the development of a new drug

0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:07.080
<v Speaker 2>he says could help ninety percent of als patients. The

0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:10.640
<v Speaker 2>US Food and Drug Administration has approved the therapy, named

0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:14.880
<v Speaker 2>snuggo I, for human trials this year. China is betting

0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:17.959
<v Speaker 2>that drugs like these could help its biotech industry move

0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:21.440
<v Speaker 2>from creating mostly generic drugs to the far more lucrative

0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:25.560
<v Speaker 2>business of making patented medications. But the practice of using

0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:29.200
<v Speaker 2>large gene edited animals in the drug development process is

0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:34.200
<v Speaker 2>raising ethical questions. Carolyn says Professor Jah himself was conflicted.

0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:39.360
<v Speaker 1>He was definitely happy because for all the years work,

0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:44.040
<v Speaker 1>you see something that's becoming successful. But he also mentioned

0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:48.520
<v Speaker 1>he was sorry film the creature to develop that. But

0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:52.360
<v Speaker 1>again back to this argument, like what is right, what

0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:54.520
<v Speaker 1>is wrong? How much can you do this? Where should

0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:55.600
<v Speaker 1>we draw the line right?

0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.800
<v Speaker 2>This is the big take. Asia from Bloomberg news I'm Wanha.

0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:05.200
<v Speaker 2>Every week we take you inside some of the world's

0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:08.960
<v Speaker 2>biggest and most powerful economies and the markets, tycoons, and

0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:13.480
<v Speaker 2>businesses that drive this ever shifting region. Today on the show,

0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:16.960
<v Speaker 2>we find out how far China has come and how

0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:21.160
<v Speaker 2>far it's willing to go to become the world's biotechnology superpower,

0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:32.160
<v Speaker 2>and whether it could really challenge the West. China has

0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:36.320
<v Speaker 2>big ambitions in the biotechnology industry. Over the past ten years,

0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:39.400
<v Speaker 2>it's ramped up spending and drug development, and it's made

0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:43.040
<v Speaker 2>changes to much of its regulatory regime to mirror Europe.

0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:46.599
<v Speaker 2>In the US, China's biotech firms have gotten lots of

0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.760
<v Speaker 2>financial help from the government and the explicit support of

0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:54.120
<v Speaker 2>Chinese present Shijinping. In twenty sixteen, she said the country

0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:57.960
<v Speaker 2>should become a global scientific and technology power, and he

0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:01.200
<v Speaker 2>declared biotech and gene editing as strategic priority.

0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:04.760
<v Speaker 1>Cdmps do yet.

0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:10.039
<v Speaker 2>Bloomberg's Carolyn Kahn says until recently, China's biotech industry was

0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:14.000
<v Speaker 2>known for making generic drugs. Today, though it's focused on

0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:17.839
<v Speaker 2>innovation and creating new proprietary medications.

0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:22.440
<v Speaker 1>Because generic drugs, just to putay simple, it doesn't make money.

0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:25.400
<v Speaker 2>China used to be a distant third to the US

0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:28.320
<v Speaker 2>and Europe when it came to creating new drugs, but

0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:30.839
<v Speaker 2>last year it came up with more than twelve hundred

0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:35.039
<v Speaker 2>new formulations, meeting out Europe and closing in on the US.

0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:38.760
<v Speaker 2>In twenty fifteen, China was home to just five of

0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:41.320
<v Speaker 2>the world's top fifty innovative drug companies.

0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:46.080
<v Speaker 1>Today, twenty of the fifty companies that are generating the

0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:50.159
<v Speaker 1>highest number of innovative drugs and now from China.

0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:55.640
<v Speaker 2>China's move to dominate global biotech was formally revealed in

0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:59.280
<v Speaker 2>twenty sixteen in the country's five year Plan. The plan

0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:01.960
<v Speaker 2>opened the door for China to begin using what has

0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:06.680
<v Speaker 2>become one of the most effective tools, biobreeding, or genetic editing.

0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:10.800
<v Speaker 2>Andy Greenfield is a geneticist and reproductive biologist at the

0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:14.359
<v Speaker 2>University of Oxford. Scientists have been working on this technology

0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:18.000
<v Speaker 2>since the nineteen seventies, but Andy says they've only recently

0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:21.480
<v Speaker 2>learned how to actually edit an animal's genetic code.

0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:24.560
<v Speaker 5>The most common way to do that these days would

0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:27.400
<v Speaker 5>be to use Crispacas nine, which is a gene editing

0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.400
<v Speaker 5>tool that we've had now for over ten years.

0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:35.400
<v Speaker 2>Andy says gene editing an animal is complicated enough, but

0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:39.440
<v Speaker 2>using that animal to cure a disease is more complicated.

0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:42.800
<v Speaker 2>Still is not always clear which genes need to be

0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:47.040
<v Speaker 2>targeted to replicate the disease. Figuring that out is expensive

0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:48.640
<v Speaker 2>and time consuming.

0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:51.680
<v Speaker 5>So for example, DNA, it might be you want to

0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:56.159
<v Speaker 5>specifically model what happens when you change one aminum acid

0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:58.440
<v Speaker 5>in a sheep or a goat or a mouse, and

0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:01.320
<v Speaker 5>that could be chicky because it means that other things

0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:04.599
<v Speaker 5>could happen in the process of trying to edit that gene,

0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:06.719
<v Speaker 5>which are undesirable and unwanted.

0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:11.520
<v Speaker 2>When gene editing technology first started being used, scientists worked

0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:16.080
<v Speaker 2>almost exclusively on gene editing in mice, but over time

0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:19.960
<v Speaker 2>they began editing the genomes of larger animals. Andy says

0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:23.800
<v Speaker 2>large animal models are most helpful to scientists when rodents

0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.440
<v Speaker 2>aren't big enough or won't live long enough to be

0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:27.800
<v Speaker 2>able to mimic a disease.

0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:33.000
<v Speaker 5>When it comes to neurological disorders, to model human neurological

0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:36.320
<v Speaker 5>disorder once requires having a brain which is at least

0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:40.840
<v Speaker 5>comparable to the human brain, perhaps which develops a condition

0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:43.720
<v Speaker 5>over time which isn't always possible when a road model

0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:46.120
<v Speaker 5>where the average mouse only lists for six months.

0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:50.840
<v Speaker 2>Drugs that treat neurological diseases are prized in the drug

0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:54.600
<v Speaker 2>development world because they're so difficult to make. China has

0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:57.280
<v Speaker 2>several under development, including snug O one.

0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:01.280
<v Speaker 1>There are definitely a lot of innovative drug in the pipelines,

0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:05.320
<v Speaker 1>but the drug development takes, if not decase, at least

0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:09.400
<v Speaker 1>it is and in that process you constantly need money

0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:11.640
<v Speaker 1>to pull into the pipeline.

0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:15.440
<v Speaker 2>To support making these drugs and its broader biotech ambitions.

0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:19.400
<v Speaker 2>China has built eight animal research centers since twenty ten,

0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:23.080
<v Speaker 2>and it keeps tens of thousands of animals in these facilities.

0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:26.280
<v Speaker 2>Scientists can apply to them to get a certain type

0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:28.960
<v Speaker 2>of monkey or a certain type of pig for their research.

0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:33.600
<v Speaker 1>So the centers, you go to their website, they proudly

0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:39.160
<v Speaker 1>exhibit what they have this animal, this monkey, whatever gene

0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:44.800
<v Speaker 1>is altered with whatever foundation. There are also the biotech

0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:49.560
<v Speaker 1>companies now trying to gene added the dogs.

0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:53.800
<v Speaker 2>As if gene editing wasn't controversial enough, China is also

0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:58.400
<v Speaker 2>pushing into an even more sensitive area of biological research, cloning.

0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:02.560
<v Speaker 1>Actually, China clone the world's first dog with a certain

0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:06.600
<v Speaker 1>gene edited disease, and also it cloned the world's first

0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:09.679
<v Speaker 1>monkey with a certain gen edited disease.

0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:13.800
<v Speaker 2>Chinese scientists first edited the genes of monkeys that had

0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:18.760
<v Speaker 2>sleep disorders, anxiety, and depression. They then clone the animals

0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:22.160
<v Speaker 2>to create a larger pool of patients with the same ailments,

0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:24.840
<v Speaker 2>all with the idea of accelerating drug development.

0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:29.160
<v Speaker 1>In the top universities of the research institutes, there are

0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:37.319
<v Speaker 1>scientists doing monkeys, for example, to develop them into having autism.

0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:39.680
<v Speaker 2>And Carolyn says the companies involved in gene editing and

0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:43.120
<v Speaker 2>cloning don't just run experiments on the animals, they also

0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:47.160
<v Speaker 2>sell them. Last year, the global market for genetically modified

0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:51.559
<v Speaker 2>animals in biomedical research was estimated at fifteen billion dollars,

0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:54.880
<v Speaker 2>more than twice what it was less than a decade ago,

0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:57.840
<v Speaker 2>and China has become one of the biggest suppliers of

0:09:57.960 --> 0:09:59.720
<v Speaker 2>lab animals in the world.

0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:03.800
<v Speaker 1>It has probably the world's biggest population of monkeys that

0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:07.400
<v Speaker 1>is commonly used in developing drugs and vaccines.

0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:10.800
<v Speaker 2>Editing the genes of larger animals like monkeys or the

0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:14.160
<v Speaker 2>pig that Jaii Chang used to treat als is still

0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:15.560
<v Speaker 2>controversial in the West.

0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:18.679
<v Speaker 1>We reach out to the Chinese government for commons. We

0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:22.560
<v Speaker 1>sent a request three times, but we didn't get any

0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:27.800
<v Speaker 1>answer from them. We ask how to regulate the industry,

0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:31.960
<v Speaker 1>especially when there's so much demand on, you know, this

0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.600
<v Speaker 1>kind of research, but the animal welfare law is not

0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:37.080
<v Speaker 1>there yet in place.

0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:40.559
<v Speaker 2>While the US does allow the use of large animal models,

0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:43.760
<v Speaker 2>the majority of the twenty million lab animals used in

0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:47.640
<v Speaker 2>the States are mice. Animal welfare is a major factor,

0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:51.400
<v Speaker 2>and while Carolyn says it's also a concern for Chinese scientists,

0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:53.400
<v Speaker 2>it tends to be weighed differently.

0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:56.400
<v Speaker 1>I think a lot of scientists believe that what China

0:10:56.520 --> 0:11:00.240
<v Speaker 1>is doing now, even the kind of work that is

0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:05.200
<v Speaker 1>limited to the lapse to the university, to the research institutes,

0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:11.760
<v Speaker 1>while in the future, contribute to China's advancement in the

0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:16.240
<v Speaker 1>ribberry with the US, with Europe, because China is doing

0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:20.199
<v Speaker 1>something that is very hard to be down right now.

0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:21.359
<v Speaker 1>In the West.

0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:27.280
<v Speaker 2>Coming up, we look at how reliable animal experiments are

0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:36.559
<v Speaker 2>for developing therapies, the alternatives, and what the future could hold.

0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:48.120
<v Speaker 2>Gene editing is a big, fast growing business in the

0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:52.480
<v Speaker 2>agricultural sector. Scientists have found ways to develop cows without

0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:57.240
<v Speaker 2>horns and salmon that grow faster to adulthood. Gene editing

0:11:57.400 --> 0:11:59.959
<v Speaker 2>is also growing more popular in the area of science

0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:03.920
<v Speaker 2>and drug research too, although exact numbers are hard to

0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:08.200
<v Speaker 2>pin down, but Bloomberg's Carolyn Kahn says one thing is apparent.

0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:11.959
<v Speaker 2>Genetically engineered animals are increasingly in demand.

0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:18.000
<v Speaker 1>It is an increasingly important strategy to have good animals,

0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:21.760
<v Speaker 1>larger animals, animals that can better mimic human disease.

0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:24.720
<v Speaker 2>And if you want to work on these kinds of animals,

0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:28.520
<v Speaker 2>China is the place to go. Carolyn says that's because

0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:31.440
<v Speaker 2>there's not much oversight in the country's labs, and the

0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:35.600
<v Speaker 2>main focus is on disease control, not animal welfare.

0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:38.520
<v Speaker 1>If we're talking about how the animals are treated, I

0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:42.680
<v Speaker 1>think nobody knows. It's like behind the door, behind the gate.

0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:45.560
<v Speaker 1>They need to have the environment that is joy and

0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:49.840
<v Speaker 1>clean and keep them way from bacterial or bogs. So

0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:51.880
<v Speaker 1>that's a basic standard.

0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:55.680
<v Speaker 2>Carolyn says. The only real rule China has is not

0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:57.160
<v Speaker 2>to mistreat the animals.

0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:01.439
<v Speaker 1>There's actually just one sentence in the regulation which says

0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.880
<v Speaker 1>people who are dealing with the animals in the lab

0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:11.600
<v Speaker 1>should not pease or mistreat them. So that's it about

0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:17.960
<v Speaker 1>animal suffering. Animal rights or animal welfare is still something

0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:21.360
<v Speaker 1>that is considered to be Western ideology.

0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:27.520
<v Speaker 2>There isn't a unified animal rights charter, but there are

0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:32.080
<v Speaker 2>principles developed in the nineteen fifties that most scientists follow of.

0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:36.280
<v Speaker 5>Three hours which apply to the use of animals in research.

0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:41.480
<v Speaker 5>So the three hours reduce, replace, and refine. So we're

0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:44.600
<v Speaker 5>meant to be reducing the number of animals that we

0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:48.840
<v Speaker 5>use in research ultimately with a view to replacing the

0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:52.280
<v Speaker 5>use of animals in research by other methods. And when

0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:54.680
<v Speaker 5>we do have to experiment on animals, we have to

0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:59.360
<v Speaker 5>ensure we continually refine our experientation so that it causes

0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:02.960
<v Speaker 5>the least a suffering to the animal. Now, when we

0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:06.559
<v Speaker 5>say can we replace the use of animals, that would

0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:11.280
<v Speaker 5>mean that there's an alternative, for example, an alternative methodology

0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:16.160
<v Speaker 5>or alternative experiment that would still yield the same scientific information.

0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:20.280
<v Speaker 2>And while China is doubling down on using animals more

0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:23.200
<v Speaker 2>for research, in the West, governments are trying to push

0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:28.240
<v Speaker 2>scientists in the opposite direction. In April, the FDA released

0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:31.840
<v Speaker 2>a roadmap to reduce animal testing by pointing to alternatives

0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:36.160
<v Speaker 2>like lab drawn human organs and artificial intelligence models, and

0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:38.600
<v Speaker 2>the National Institute of Health points out that the use

0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:42.760
<v Speaker 2>of animals to model human diseases like Alzheimer's and cancer

0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:45.160
<v Speaker 2>has had only inconclusive results.

0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:48.320
<v Speaker 5>So, for example, today it might be possible to use

0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:52.520
<v Speaker 5>human organoids, little mini organs that can be grown in

0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.560
<v Speaker 5>a dish using stem cells, So it's possible to use

0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:58.840
<v Speaker 5>many kidneys and mini brains, etc. And that may be

0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:01.840
<v Speaker 5>an alternative, always be an alternative, but it may be

0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:03.880
<v Speaker 5>an alternative to using an animal.

0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:08.160
<v Speaker 2>Andy Greenfield says, despite advances like the als drug developed

0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:11.320
<v Speaker 2>from a pig in China, it's still not clear how

0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:14.520
<v Speaker 2>useful gene edited animals are when it comes to finding

0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:15.760
<v Speaker 2>cures for disease.

0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:18.880
<v Speaker 5>You might expect there to be more progressing those countries

0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.640
<v Speaker 5>which permit those kind of diseases, but nothing is necessarily

0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.480
<v Speaker 5>the case, because some of those models that they generate

0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:28.280
<v Speaker 5>may end up being dead ends, they may end up

0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:30.800
<v Speaker 5>not being particularly good models, so it is known. I

0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:33.720
<v Speaker 5>don't think there's any necessity here, but I suspect perhaps

0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.760
<v Speaker 5>the probability goes up that they will at some point

0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:41.040
<v Speaker 5>find a model which is very very useful for understanding

0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.680
<v Speaker 5>the human condition. Research is just unpredictable. It doesn't go

0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:46.240
<v Speaker 5>in a simple linear fashion.

0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:51.200
<v Speaker 2>A review article by JOHNS Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public

0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:54.320
<v Speaker 2>Health found that fewer than ten percent of animal experiments

0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:59.720
<v Speaker 2>resulted in therapies used by patients. Meanwhile, public sentiment in

0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:03.440
<v Speaker 2>the world west is turning against animal testing. In the

0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:06.760
<v Speaker 2>US and Europe, activists have shut down labs and forced

0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:11.080
<v Speaker 2>airlines to halt shipments of primates. They've also staged protests

0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:14.120
<v Speaker 2>outside dog breeding facilities that lasted years.

0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:17.920
<v Speaker 5>I think it's important in any country policy makers have

0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:20.800
<v Speaker 5>an understanding of popular attitudes. Though the attitudes that the

0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:24.160
<v Speaker 5>public will have I'm sure will be complex. It will

0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:28.280
<v Speaker 5>be well, yes, but only with the following conditions. In

0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:32.200
<v Speaker 5>the UK, for example, we are allegedly at a nation

0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:34.720
<v Speaker 5>of animal lovers, so we claim, but it depends on

0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:37.080
<v Speaker 5>the context. If I look out my window, I will

0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:39.960
<v Speaker 5>see people walking their dogs every day, so there is

0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:42.640
<v Speaker 5>that sense of love of animals in this country. But

0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:46.840
<v Speaker 5>we still eat factory farm chickens in this country, where

0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:51.280
<v Speaker 5>there's been untold descriptions of potential harms to those chickens

0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:53.320
<v Speaker 5>during their relatively short lives.

0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:57.720
<v Speaker 2>Carolin says, in China, the public sees animal testing in

0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:00.880
<v Speaker 2>a positive light in large parts thanks to the state

0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:02.760
<v Speaker 2>media in China.

0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:07.919
<v Speaker 1>I think, especially state media, when they report on those topics,

0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:11.760
<v Speaker 1>it's always like a celebration. It feels like this is

0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:15.840
<v Speaker 1>a technology advancement. Right, China is catching up or even

0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:19.399
<v Speaker 1>bit better in this field, So it's always like people

0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:25.080
<v Speaker 1>celebrating this great thing. Rarely anyone doubts or even read

0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:30.520
<v Speaker 1>the question of the ethical issues of animal testing gene modification,

0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:32.840
<v Speaker 1>especially large animal.

0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:38.560
<v Speaker 2>But China has come across a red line. In twenty nineteen,

0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:43.119
<v Speaker 2>one scientist had Jankoi carried out experiments on human embryos

0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:45.520
<v Speaker 2>to give them protection against HIV.

0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:49.040
<v Speaker 1>So that was a scandal that he can shake not

0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:51.959
<v Speaker 1>only China but global scientific community.

0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:56.480
<v Speaker 2>He was jailed for three years and the government cracked down. Now,

0:17:56.640 --> 0:18:00.840
<v Speaker 2>experimentation on humans is strictly regulated, but when it comes

0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:05.000
<v Speaker 2>to animals, pretty much anything goes. Professor John the man

0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:08.159
<v Speaker 2>who developed the als therapy from a gene edited pig,

0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:11.919
<v Speaker 2>told Carolyn that he has no qualms about using animals

0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:13.880
<v Speaker 2>to find cures for humans.

0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:17.920
<v Speaker 1>He feels so happy that China stew Is in the

0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:23.480
<v Speaker 1>direction like to support animal research because he believed animal

0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:28.080
<v Speaker 1>models is not going to be replaced in the near future.

0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:32.560
<v Speaker 2>Carolyn says, the way Chinese scientists see it, animal testing

0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:35.879
<v Speaker 2>is a necessary part of the process, a way to

0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:38.560
<v Speaker 2>potentially prevent humans from suffering.

0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:44.760
<v Speaker 1>For human patients, there are so many patients quietly dying

0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:50.520
<v Speaker 1>and no solutions, especially those rare disease. There's no investment

0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:55.000
<v Speaker 1>because not so many people need the drugs right, So

0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:59.520
<v Speaker 1>that's the rare disease patients. They are really struggling to

0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:03.000
<v Speaker 1>get in enough attention to get enough for help, and

0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:06.879
<v Speaker 1>they are really frustrated. They are in a kind of

0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:11.400
<v Speaker 1>sitution that those scientists think maybe we should have more

0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:14.600
<v Speaker 1>femassy too than a mouse.

0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:21.320
<v Speaker 2>This is The Big Take Asia from Bloomberg News. I'm wanha.

0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:24.720
<v Speaker 2>To get more from The Big Take and unlimited access

0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:27.600
<v Speaker 2>to all of Bloomberg dot Com, subscribe today at Bloomberg

0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:31.040
<v Speaker 2>dot com slash podcast Offer. If you liked the episode,

0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:33.720
<v Speaker 2>make sure to subscribe and review The Big Take Asia

0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:36.720
<v Speaker 2>wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps people find

0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:39.000
<v Speaker 2>the show. Thanks for listening, See you next time.