1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 2: Brian Wallach is forty five years old, a husband and 3 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 2: a father of two. For much of his life, he 4 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 2: worked as a lawyer and political organizer, even serving as 5 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:23,479 Speaker 2: White House counsel under President Barack Obama. But eight years 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 2: ago he received a devastating diagnosis. 7 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 3: I was diagnosed with ALS in twenty seventeen at the 8 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 3: age of thirty seven. 9 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 4: My wife, Sandra, and I. 10 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 3: Had just brought our second daughter home when we received 11 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 3: the news. 12 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 2: ALS, known widely as lou Gehrig's disease, is a neurodegenerative 13 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 2: disorder where motor neurons are gradually lost, leading patients to 14 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 2: slowly lose control of their bodies. 15 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 3: For me, this has meant a gradual loss of my 16 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 3: ability to walk, use my hands, and speak. 17 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,279 Speaker 2: At the time, Brian was given six months to live. 18 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 4: I couldn't accept that timeline. 19 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 3: Instead, I chose to fight with everything I had to 20 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 3: change it. 21 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 4: Eight years later, I'm still here. 22 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 2: Today. Brian and his wife Sandra are advocates for the 23 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 2: more than thirty thousand Americans living with ALS. They founded 24 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 2: the nonprofit I Am ALS in part to advocate for 25 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,759 Speaker 2: research funding for cure, and some of the most exciting 26 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 2: als research to date is coming out of China. 27 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: China is trying to have the companies do something that 28 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: nobody in the world has ever done. That is China's goal, 29 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: like to be a global bow tech leader. 30 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 2: That's Bloomberg's Asia Health reporter Carolyn Khan Jesus. China is 31 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 2: taking a controversial approach to finding cures to diseases like als. 32 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: China sees gene editing in animals as one of the 33 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: key aspects of bow tech development. 34 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 2: Gene editing. The US and Europe take a strict approach 35 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 2: to gene editing animals, in particular large animals like pigs, monkeys, 36 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:11,239 Speaker 2: and dogs, but as China's biotech industry grows, its use 37 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,239 Speaker 2: of gene edited large animals has expanded. 38 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: So for years, this professor that Eachang at Siwa University 39 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: was studying to find a solution to als, and his 40 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: lab was making als animal models. First, they were putting 41 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,519 Speaker 1: the disease into mice, but mice didn't show any symptoms. 42 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: It never worked down mice, but then he gene edited 43 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 1: a pig. The pig developed symptoms of ALS and then 44 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: died about a year later. This was significant because Professor 45 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: that Eichan was able to replicate a human disease into 46 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: a big animal, which allows drug developers and scientists to 47 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: test the full side effects. 48 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 2: By comparing the pig's reaction to that of mice models, 49 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 2: John discovered a clue a gene acting uniquely in the 50 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 2: mice that led to the development of a new drug 51 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 2: he says could help ninety percent of als patients. The 52 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 2: US Food and Drug Administration has approved the therapy, named 53 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 2: snuggo I, for human trials this year. China is betting 54 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 2: that drugs like these could help its biotech industry move 55 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 2: from creating mostly generic drugs to the far more lucrative 56 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: business of making patented medications. But the practice of using 57 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 2: large gene edited animals in the drug development process is 58 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 2: raising ethical questions. Carolyn says Professor Jah himself was conflicted. 59 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: He was definitely happy because for all the years work, 60 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: you see something that's becoming successful. But he also mentioned 61 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: he was sorry film the creature to develop that. But 62 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: again back to this argument, like what is right, what 63 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: is wrong? How much can you do this? Where should 64 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: we draw the line right? 65 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 2: This is the big take. Asia from Bloomberg news I'm Wanha. 66 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 2: Every week we take you inside some of the world's 67 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 2: biggest and most powerful economies and the markets, tycoons, and 68 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 2: businesses that drive this ever shifting region. Today on the show, 69 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 2: we find out how far China has come and how 70 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 2: far it's willing to go to become the world's biotechnology superpower, 71 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 2: and whether it could really challenge the West. China has 72 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 2: big ambitions in the biotechnology industry. Over the past ten years, 73 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 2: it's ramped up spending and drug development, and it's made 74 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 2: changes to much of its regulatory regime to mirror Europe. 75 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 2: In the US, China's biotech firms have gotten lots of 76 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 2: financial help from the government and the explicit support of 77 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 2: Chinese present Shijinping. In twenty sixteen, she said the country 78 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 2: should become a global scientific and technology power, and he 79 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 2: declared biotech and gene editing as strategic priority. 80 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: Cdmps do yet. 81 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 2: Bloomberg's Carolyn Kahn says until recently, China's biotech industry was 82 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 2: known for making generic drugs. Today, though it's focused on 83 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 2: innovation and creating new proprietary medications. 84 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: Because generic drugs, just to putay simple, it doesn't make money. 85 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 2: China used to be a distant third to the US 86 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 2: and Europe when it came to creating new drugs, but 87 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 2: last year it came up with more than twelve hundred 88 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 2: new formulations, meeting out Europe and closing in on the US. 89 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 2: In twenty fifteen, China was home to just five of 90 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 2: the world's top fifty innovative drug companies. 91 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: Today, twenty of the fifty companies that are generating the 92 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: highest number of innovative drugs and now from China. 93 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 2: China's move to dominate global biotech was formally revealed in 94 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 2: twenty sixteen in the country's five year Plan. The plan 95 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 2: opened the door for China to begin using what has 96 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 2: become one of the most effective tools, biobreeding, or genetic editing. 97 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 2: Andy Greenfield is a geneticist and reproductive biologist at the 98 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,359 Speaker 2: University of Oxford. Scientists have been working on this technology 99 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 2: since the nineteen seventies, but Andy says they've only recently 100 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 2: learned how to actually edit an animal's genetic code. 101 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 5: The most common way to do that these days would 102 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 5: be to use Crispacas nine, which is a gene editing 103 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 5: tool that we've had now for over ten years. 104 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 2: Andy says gene editing an animal is complicated enough, but 105 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 2: using that animal to cure a disease is more complicated. 106 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 2: Still is not always clear which genes need to be 107 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 2: targeted to replicate the disease. Figuring that out is expensive 108 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 2: and time consuming. 109 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 5: So for example, DNA, it might be you want to 110 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 5: specifically model what happens when you change one aminum acid 111 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 5: in a sheep or a goat or a mouse, and 112 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 5: that could be chicky because it means that other things 113 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 5: could happen in the process of trying to edit that gene, 114 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 5: which are undesirable and unwanted. 115 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 2: When gene editing technology first started being used, scientists worked 116 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 2: almost exclusively on gene editing in mice, but over time 117 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 2: they began editing the genomes of larger animals. Andy says 118 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 2: large animal models are most helpful to scientists when rodents 119 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 2: aren't big enough or won't live long enough to be 120 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 2: able to mimic a disease. 121 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 5: When it comes to neurological disorders, to model human neurological 122 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 5: disorder once requires having a brain which is at least 123 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 5: comparable to the human brain, perhaps which develops a condition 124 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 5: over time which isn't always possible when a road model 125 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 5: where the average mouse only lists for six months. 126 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 2: Drugs that treat neurological diseases are prized in the drug 127 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 2: development world because they're so difficult to make. China has 128 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 2: several under development, including snug O one. 129 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: There are definitely a lot of innovative drug in the pipelines, 130 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: but the drug development takes, if not decase, at least 131 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: it is and in that process you constantly need money 132 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: to pull into the pipeline. 133 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 2: To support making these drugs and its broader biotech ambitions. 134 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 2: China has built eight animal research centers since twenty ten, 135 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 2: and it keeps tens of thousands of animals in these facilities. 136 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 2: Scientists can apply to them to get a certain type 137 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 2: of monkey or a certain type of pig for their research. 138 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: So the centers, you go to their website, they proudly 139 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: exhibit what they have this animal, this monkey, whatever gene 140 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: is altered with whatever foundation. There are also the biotech 141 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: companies now trying to gene added the dogs. 142 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 2: As if gene editing wasn't controversial enough, China is also 143 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 2: pushing into an even more sensitive area of biological research, cloning. 144 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: Actually, China clone the world's first dog with a certain 145 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: gene edited disease, and also it cloned the world's first 146 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 1: monkey with a certain gen edited disease. 147 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 2: Chinese scientists first edited the genes of monkeys that had 148 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 2: sleep disorders, anxiety, and depression. They then clone the animals 149 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 2: to create a larger pool of patients with the same ailments, 150 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 2: all with the idea of accelerating drug development. 151 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: In the top universities of the research institutes, there are 152 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 1: scientists doing monkeys, for example, to develop them into having autism. 153 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 2: And Carolyn says the companies involved in gene editing and 154 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 2: cloning don't just run experiments on the animals, they also 155 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 2: sell them. Last year, the global market for genetically modified 156 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 2: animals in biomedical research was estimated at fifteen billion dollars, 157 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 2: more than twice what it was less than a decade ago, 158 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 2: and China has become one of the biggest suppliers of 159 00:09:57,960 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 2: lab animals in the world. 160 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: It has probably the world's biggest population of monkeys that 161 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: is commonly used in developing drugs and vaccines. 162 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 2: Editing the genes of larger animals like monkeys or the 163 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 2: pig that Jaii Chang used to treat als is still 164 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 2: controversial in the West. 165 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 1: We reach out to the Chinese government for commons. We 166 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 1: sent a request three times, but we didn't get any 167 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: answer from them. We ask how to regulate the industry, 168 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: especially when there's so much demand on, you know, this 169 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: kind of research, but the animal welfare law is not 170 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: there yet in place. 171 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,559 Speaker 2: While the US does allow the use of large animal models, 172 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 2: the majority of the twenty million lab animals used in 173 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 2: the States are mice. Animal welfare is a major factor, 174 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 2: and while Carolyn says it's also a concern for Chinese scientists, 175 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 2: it tends to be weighed differently. 176 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: I think a lot of scientists believe that what China 177 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: is doing now, even the kind of work that is 178 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: limited to the lapse to the university, to the research institutes, 179 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: while in the future, contribute to China's advancement in the 180 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: ribberry with the US, with Europe, because China is doing 181 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:20,199 Speaker 1: something that is very hard to be down right now. 182 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:21,359 Speaker 1: In the West. 183 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 2: Coming up, we look at how reliable animal experiments are 184 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:36,559 Speaker 2: for developing therapies, the alternatives, and what the future could hold. 185 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 2: Gene editing is a big, fast growing business in the 186 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 2: agricultural sector. Scientists have found ways to develop cows without 187 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 2: horns and salmon that grow faster to adulthood. Gene editing 188 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 2: is also growing more popular in the area of science 189 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 2: and drug research too, although exact numbers are hard to 190 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 2: pin down, but Bloomberg's Carolyn Kahn says one thing is apparent. 191 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,959 Speaker 2: Genetically engineered animals are increasingly in demand. 192 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: It is an increasingly important strategy to have good animals, 193 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: larger animals, animals that can better mimic human disease. 194 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 2: And if you want to work on these kinds of animals, 195 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 2: China is the place to go. Carolyn says that's because 196 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 2: there's not much oversight in the country's labs, and the 197 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 2: main focus is on disease control, not animal welfare. 198 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: If we're talking about how the animals are treated, I 199 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 1: think nobody knows. It's like behind the door, behind the gate. 200 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 1: They need to have the environment that is joy and 201 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: clean and keep them way from bacterial or bogs. So 202 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: that's a basic standard. 203 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 2: Carolyn says. The only real rule China has is not 204 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 2: to mistreat the animals. 205 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:01,439 Speaker 1: There's actually just one sentence in the regulation which says 206 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: people who are dealing with the animals in the lab 207 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: should not pease or mistreat them. So that's it about 208 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: animal suffering. Animal rights or animal welfare is still something 209 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: that is considered to be Western ideology. 210 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 2: There isn't a unified animal rights charter, but there are 211 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 2: principles developed in the nineteen fifties that most scientists follow of. 212 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 5: Three hours which apply to the use of animals in research. 213 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 5: So the three hours reduce, replace, and refine. So we're 214 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 5: meant to be reducing the number of animals that we 215 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 5: use in research ultimately with a view to replacing the 216 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 5: use of animals in research by other methods. And when 217 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 5: we do have to experiment on animals, we have to 218 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 5: ensure we continually refine our experientation so that it causes 219 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 5: the least a suffering to the animal. Now, when we 220 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 5: say can we replace the use of animals, that would 221 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 5: mean that there's an alternative, for example, an alternative methodology 222 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 5: or alternative experiment that would still yield the same scientific information. 223 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 2: And while China is doubling down on using animals more 224 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 2: for research, in the West, governments are trying to push 225 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 2: scientists in the opposite direction. In April, the FDA released 226 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 2: a roadmap to reduce animal testing by pointing to alternatives 227 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 2: like lab drawn human organs and artificial intelligence models, and 228 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 2: the National Institute of Health points out that the use 229 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 2: of animals to model human diseases like Alzheimer's and cancer 230 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 2: has had only inconclusive results. 231 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 5: So, for example, today it might be possible to use 232 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 5: human organoids, little mini organs that can be grown in 233 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 5: a dish using stem cells, So it's possible to use 234 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 5: many kidneys and mini brains, etc. And that may be 235 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 5: an alternative, always be an alternative, but it may be 236 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 5: an alternative to using an animal. 237 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 2: Andy Greenfield says, despite advances like the als drug developed 238 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 2: from a pig in China, it's still not clear how 239 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 2: useful gene edited animals are when it comes to finding 240 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 2: cures for disease. 241 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 5: You might expect there to be more progressing those countries 242 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 5: which permit those kind of diseases, but nothing is necessarily 243 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 5: the case, because some of those models that they generate 244 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 5: may end up being dead ends, they may end up 245 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 5: not being particularly good models, so it is known. I 246 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 5: don't think there's any necessity here, but I suspect perhaps 247 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 5: the probability goes up that they will at some point 248 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 5: find a model which is very very useful for understanding 249 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 5: the human condition. Research is just unpredictable. It doesn't go 250 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 5: in a simple linear fashion. 251 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 2: A review article by JOHNS Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public 252 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 2: Health found that fewer than ten percent of animal experiments 253 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 2: resulted in therapies used by patients. Meanwhile, public sentiment in 254 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 2: the world west is turning against animal testing. In the 255 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 2: US and Europe, activists have shut down labs and forced 256 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 2: airlines to halt shipments of primates. They've also staged protests 257 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 2: outside dog breeding facilities that lasted years. 258 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 5: I think it's important in any country policy makers have 259 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 5: an understanding of popular attitudes. Though the attitudes that the 260 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 5: public will have I'm sure will be complex. It will 261 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 5: be well, yes, but only with the following conditions. In 262 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 5: the UK, for example, we are allegedly at a nation 263 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 5: of animal lovers, so we claim, but it depends on 264 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 5: the context. If I look out my window, I will 265 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 5: see people walking their dogs every day, so there is 266 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 5: that sense of love of animals in this country. But 267 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 5: we still eat factory farm chickens in this country, where 268 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 5: there's been untold descriptions of potential harms to those chickens 269 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 5: during their relatively short lives. 270 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 2: Carolin says, in China, the public sees animal testing in 271 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 2: a positive light in large parts thanks to the state 272 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 2: media in China. 273 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: I think, especially state media, when they report on those topics, 274 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: it's always like a celebration. It feels like this is 275 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: a technology advancement. Right, China is catching up or even 276 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 1: bit better in this field, So it's always like people 277 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: celebrating this great thing. Rarely anyone doubts or even read 278 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: the question of the ethical issues of animal testing gene modification, 279 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: especially large animal. 280 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 2: But China has come across a red line. In twenty nineteen, 281 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 2: one scientist had Jankoi carried out experiments on human embryos 282 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 2: to give them protection against HIV. 283 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: So that was a scandal that he can shake not 284 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:51,959 Speaker 1: only China but global scientific community. 285 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 2: He was jailed for three years and the government cracked down. Now, 286 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 2: experimentation on humans is strictly regulated, but when it comes 287 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 2: to animals, pretty much anything goes. Professor John the man 288 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 2: who developed the als therapy from a gene edited pig, 289 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 2: told Carolyn that he has no qualms about using animals 290 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:13,880 Speaker 2: to find cures for humans. 291 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: He feels so happy that China stew Is in the 292 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: direction like to support animal research because he believed animal 293 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: models is not going to be replaced in the near future. 294 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 2: Carolyn says, the way Chinese scientists see it, animal testing 295 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 2: is a necessary part of the process, a way to 296 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 2: potentially prevent humans from suffering. 297 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: For human patients, there are so many patients quietly dying 298 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: and no solutions, especially those rare disease. There's no investment 299 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: because not so many people need the drugs right, So 300 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: that's the rare disease patients. They are really struggling to 301 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: get in enough attention to get enough for help, and 302 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 1: they are really frustrated. They are in a kind of 303 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 1: sitution that those scientists think maybe we should have more 304 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: femassy too than a mouse. 305 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 2: This is The Big Take Asia from Bloomberg News. I'm wanha. 306 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 2: To get more from The Big Take and unlimited access 307 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 2: to all of Bloomberg dot Com, subscribe today at Bloomberg 308 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 2: dot com slash podcast Offer. If you liked the episode, 309 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 2: make sure to subscribe and review The Big Take Asia 310 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 2: wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps people find 311 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 2: the show. Thanks for listening, See you next time.