1 00:00:15,264 --> 00:00:24,384 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Oh, hello, I didn't see you there. I'm just 2 00:00:24,384 --> 00:00:27,184 Speaker 1: sitting here reading the cover of New York Magazine. It's 3 00:00:27,224 --> 00:00:30,344 Speaker 1: this amazing story by Alice and p Davis called My 4 00:00:30,504 --> 00:00:34,384 Speaker 1: Tinder Decade, and it is the story of the week. 5 00:00:38,144 --> 00:00:41,864 Speaker 1: So shortly after Tinder launched this dating site, e Harmony 6 00:00:41,984 --> 00:00:45,264 Speaker 1: released a big study that showed that they had found 7 00:00:45,304 --> 00:00:48,104 Speaker 1: that there are these twenty nine different qualities that if 8 00:00:48,144 --> 00:00:51,864 Speaker 1: people have them in common, they become the happiest twenty 9 00:00:51,864 --> 00:00:54,944 Speaker 1: five percent of all marriages in the world. So e 10 00:00:55,104 --> 00:00:57,984 Speaker 1: Harmony started matching people only if they had those twenty 11 00:00:58,024 --> 00:01:02,544 Speaker 1: nine qualities in common. Naturally, for journalistic reasons, I brought 12 00:01:02,624 --> 00:01:05,344 Speaker 1: my wife down to the e Harmony headquarters in Santa 13 00:01:05,384 --> 00:01:07,984 Speaker 1: Monica to find out if they would have matched us 14 00:01:07,984 --> 00:01:12,264 Speaker 1: when we were single. So they put Cassandra in separate 15 00:01:12,344 --> 00:01:15,784 Speaker 1: rooms and made us take these hundred ten question tests, 16 00:01:16,584 --> 00:01:19,664 Speaker 1: and then e Harmony tabulated our scores and gave us 17 00:01:19,784 --> 00:01:24,264 Speaker 1: our results, and we found out that Cassandra and I 18 00:01:24,384 --> 00:01:28,624 Speaker 1: were not a match. E Harmony would never have sent 19 00:01:28,744 --> 00:01:31,984 Speaker 1: us on a date together. We were driving home and 20 00:01:32,064 --> 00:01:35,064 Speaker 1: it was kind of quiet, and then Cassandra turned to 21 00:01:35,104 --> 00:01:38,184 Speaker 1: me and she said, when we met, I just felt 22 00:01:38,184 --> 00:01:41,104 Speaker 1: the most comfortable and the most myself with anyone I'd 23 00:01:41,144 --> 00:01:44,584 Speaker 1: ever been with. I didn't think about compatibility. I also 24 00:01:44,664 --> 00:01:48,464 Speaker 1: hadn't been thinking about compatibility when we first met. She 25 00:01:48,584 --> 00:01:53,224 Speaker 1: was cool and kind of dangerous and just different. Still, 26 00:01:53,584 --> 00:01:56,744 Speaker 1: ever since e Harmony told us that we were in 27 00:01:56,824 --> 00:02:00,304 Speaker 1: a match, I've been curious about dating apps and how 28 00:02:00,344 --> 00:02:03,544 Speaker 1: they either help or hinder people in their quest for love. 29 00:02:04,464 --> 00:02:07,584 Speaker 1: That's the reason I was so into Alison P. Davis's 30 00:02:07,624 --> 00:02:11,344 Speaker 1: story about download Tinder ten years ago, right when the 31 00:02:11,424 --> 00:02:20,264 Speaker 1: opp first came out. Writing is hard. Who's got that 32 00:02:20,344 --> 00:02:23,544 Speaker 1: kind of time when you're already busy trying to be 33 00:02:23,744 --> 00:02:26,744 Speaker 1: Joe Stein until it turns on a mic? Made it 34 00:02:26,824 --> 00:02:30,184 Speaker 1: twiddles and knob because the journalist Frand has got in 35 00:02:30,304 --> 00:02:35,824 Speaker 1: that dual jime. Single story. Just listen to smart people, 36 00:02:35,864 --> 00:02:53,344 Speaker 1: speed conversation, feeling information. It's a story up. Okay, So 37 00:02:53,544 --> 00:02:57,104 Speaker 1: ten years ago, you're dating this guy. You're thinking that 38 00:02:57,144 --> 00:03:02,504 Speaker 1: you might wind up marrying, but you're breaking up, so 39 00:03:02,544 --> 00:03:06,984 Speaker 1: you decide to get on Tinder in order to stay together. Like, 40 00:03:07,184 --> 00:03:09,424 Speaker 1: run me through what was going on in your twenty 41 00:03:09,464 --> 00:03:12,024 Speaker 1: six year old brain. So I got the Tinder I 42 00:03:12,064 --> 00:03:13,784 Speaker 1: think I got a press release or it came up 43 00:03:13,784 --> 00:03:17,624 Speaker 1: in a meeting, and I was like, that is exactly 44 00:03:17,664 --> 00:03:22,144 Speaker 1: what I need to follow, the age old advice of 45 00:03:22,824 --> 00:03:25,144 Speaker 1: make him jealous, you know, let him know that if 46 00:03:25,264 --> 00:03:27,984 Speaker 1: if you lose him. I know. I'm not proud of this. No, no, 47 00:03:28,664 --> 00:03:32,104 Speaker 1: this is every sitcom has used this technique, right, This 48 00:03:32,304 --> 00:03:34,664 Speaker 1: is like rom com one on one right. So we 49 00:03:34,704 --> 00:03:36,784 Speaker 1: met for dinner that weekend, and I remember we were 50 00:03:36,824 --> 00:03:40,624 Speaker 1: at dinner and I had downloaded the app before dinner, 51 00:03:41,064 --> 00:03:45,384 Speaker 1: and oh, yeah, this is me at my most like 52 00:03:45,824 --> 00:03:48,304 Speaker 1: what is Everyone says like main character energy, but I 53 00:03:48,344 --> 00:03:51,264 Speaker 1: think this is like like villain energy, and I'm not 54 00:03:51,424 --> 00:03:55,544 Speaker 1: ashamed of it. But here's the thing. Anything one does, 55 00:03:56,104 --> 00:03:59,584 Speaker 1: if it worked, it's a great moment. It's say anything 56 00:03:59,584 --> 00:04:01,904 Speaker 1: with the boombox above your head. Yeah. So I guess 57 00:04:02,104 --> 00:04:05,344 Speaker 1: this did not work, but what I thought it one. 58 00:04:05,584 --> 00:04:07,544 Speaker 1: But I did show him the app, and I was like, oh, 59 00:04:07,584 --> 00:04:09,544 Speaker 1: this is this new thing that I maybe and writing 60 00:04:09,544 --> 00:04:12,904 Speaker 1: about for work, but also like, can you believe how 61 00:04:12,944 --> 00:04:15,344 Speaker 1: many people are on it that are attractive that I'm 62 00:04:15,384 --> 00:04:18,224 Speaker 1: matching with and sort of like showing him my Little 63 00:04:18,264 --> 00:04:21,664 Speaker 1: Black Book if you will, And also you know. It 64 00:04:21,704 --> 00:04:25,544 Speaker 1: gave me this, this idea that there are so many 65 00:04:25,544 --> 00:04:27,464 Speaker 1: more men out there for me to date than just you, 66 00:04:28,064 --> 00:04:29,504 Speaker 1: which is kind of what I was trying to get 67 00:04:29,544 --> 00:04:31,624 Speaker 1: across so he wouldn't break up with me. Do you 68 00:04:31,624 --> 00:04:35,144 Speaker 1: think it didn't make him pause? At least I remember 69 00:04:35,224 --> 00:04:38,744 Speaker 1: him saying, why are you showing me this? And like 70 00:04:39,024 --> 00:04:42,464 Speaker 1: you know, and and and also sort of like if 71 00:04:42,544 --> 00:04:45,744 Speaker 1: you want this relationship to work, why are you telling 72 00:04:45,784 --> 00:04:49,264 Speaker 1: you that all the other guys you can date. So 73 00:04:49,304 --> 00:04:53,784 Speaker 1: that was how I started using Tinder, and that's how 74 00:04:53,784 --> 00:04:57,544 Speaker 1: her relationship ended and how our relationship with Tinder began. 75 00:04:58,104 --> 00:05:00,824 Speaker 1: So over the next few years, she went on more 76 00:05:00,944 --> 00:05:04,624 Speaker 1: dates than any human, like even a rock star human 77 00:05:04,944 --> 00:05:07,664 Speaker 1: had ever been able to go on before Tinder existed. 78 00:05:08,184 --> 00:05:11,304 Speaker 1: And some of the dates were great, some weren't so great, 79 00:05:11,624 --> 00:05:16,464 Speaker 1: and some completely changed how she thought about humanity. Oha. 80 00:05:16,504 --> 00:05:19,024 Speaker 1: So there dates he went out that fascinated me. You said, 81 00:05:19,064 --> 00:05:25,424 Speaker 1: I've been lightly catfished and probably almost scammed. What I 82 00:05:25,424 --> 00:05:28,064 Speaker 1: think that was one's almost like financially scammed. Where I 83 00:05:28,104 --> 00:05:29,864 Speaker 1: was talking to somebody and then it turned into a 84 00:05:29,864 --> 00:05:32,464 Speaker 1: conversation about crypto and he was like, if you're if 85 00:05:32,464 --> 00:05:35,304 Speaker 1: you're bad with crypto like give me like vend on 86 00:05:35,424 --> 00:05:37,144 Speaker 1: me this and I can tell you exactly where to 87 00:05:37,184 --> 00:05:40,304 Speaker 1: put it. And I was like, this guy, we're weird. 88 00:05:41,824 --> 00:05:44,504 Speaker 1: Oh that's a horrible date. But maybe he was a 89 00:05:44,544 --> 00:05:47,464 Speaker 1: crypto guy and I just you know, no, he was 90 00:05:47,504 --> 00:05:49,464 Speaker 1: definitely trying to scam me. I never would have seen 91 00:05:49,824 --> 00:05:52,864 Speaker 1: that money again. How many crypto guys did you go 92 00:05:52,904 --> 00:05:54,864 Speaker 1: on dates with? Were there tons of those? It only 93 00:05:54,904 --> 00:05:58,544 Speaker 1: takes one and then you never do it again. It 94 00:05:58,544 --> 00:06:01,144 Speaker 1: only takes one to almost scam you that. He just like, 95 00:06:01,224 --> 00:06:03,304 Speaker 1: never go out with the crypto guy again. Do you 96 00:06:03,304 --> 00:06:07,904 Speaker 1: know that song Crypto Boy? They came out earlier this year. Yeah? 97 00:06:08,104 --> 00:06:11,024 Speaker 1: Do you use music on this podcast when you play 98 00:06:11,024 --> 00:06:13,304 Speaker 1: it right now? I hope So. I don't care how 99 00:06:13,384 --> 00:06:31,184 Speaker 1: bud get cryptoplay. Being on Tinder turned you into a 100 00:06:31,224 --> 00:06:34,784 Speaker 1: laboratory where you were both a scientist and the experiment. 101 00:06:35,264 --> 00:06:39,184 Speaker 1: So what are some things that you adjusted in the 102 00:06:39,184 --> 00:06:41,744 Speaker 1: way you presented yourself as you learned more and more 103 00:06:41,784 --> 00:06:46,144 Speaker 1: about what worked? Oh man, One, the very basic thing 104 00:06:46,344 --> 00:06:48,904 Speaker 1: was just how I dressed for these dates. At first, 105 00:06:48,904 --> 00:06:51,424 Speaker 1: it would it would I would really try and be 106 00:06:51,664 --> 00:06:55,544 Speaker 1: me and wear dresses and and sort of like Carrie 107 00:06:55,584 --> 00:06:59,464 Speaker 1: Bradshaw on date night outfits at like dive bars in Brooklyn. 108 00:06:59,504 --> 00:07:01,864 Speaker 1: But I found that people responded to me more when 109 00:07:01,864 --> 00:07:05,984 Speaker 1: I was dressed more casually, like jeans and a revealing top. 110 00:07:06,024 --> 00:07:08,544 Speaker 1: And it's a cool girl myth. You know, like you 111 00:07:08,624 --> 00:07:11,664 Speaker 1: just want someone that like, oh we can meet in 112 00:07:11,704 --> 00:07:13,944 Speaker 1: a bar, but maybe she's wearing the shoes that mean 113 00:07:14,024 --> 00:07:16,864 Speaker 1: that we could go walk the city all night and 114 00:07:16,944 --> 00:07:19,464 Speaker 1: have an adventure and cross the Brooklyn Bridge. But you know, 115 00:07:19,544 --> 00:07:22,424 Speaker 1: like that kind of stuff. You know that girl I do. 116 00:07:22,744 --> 00:07:24,584 Speaker 1: I would have guessed the other way. I would have 117 00:07:24,624 --> 00:07:28,504 Speaker 1: guessed that men wanted someone like tarted up, but instead 118 00:07:29,104 --> 00:07:31,424 Speaker 1: I'm talking about myself. Let me just honestly, just let 119 00:07:31,504 --> 00:07:34,224 Speaker 1: me talk about me. I would have wanted someone, I 120 00:07:34,264 --> 00:07:36,624 Speaker 1: think when I was dating, although it would have been intimidating, 121 00:07:36,784 --> 00:07:40,064 Speaker 1: all tarted up. But you're saying men on Tinder who 122 00:07:40,064 --> 00:07:43,984 Speaker 1: maybe are more experienced than me, judge you on Oh, 123 00:07:44,024 --> 00:07:46,184 Speaker 1: if this woman is putting this much effort in she's 124 00:07:46,264 --> 00:07:49,464 Speaker 1: high maintenance, high maintenance or what you just said, you 125 00:07:49,464 --> 00:07:54,184 Speaker 1: would have been intimidated, and nobody wants to be intimidated. 126 00:07:55,024 --> 00:08:00,704 Speaker 1: That's what that is revealing. I feel like people and 127 00:08:01,224 --> 00:08:03,464 Speaker 1: myself too, like I want to go into this with 128 00:08:03,504 --> 00:08:05,224 Speaker 1: a person that I feel like I can look at 129 00:08:05,264 --> 00:08:08,824 Speaker 1: and comprehend and and also feel equal to, and that 130 00:08:08,864 --> 00:08:12,224 Speaker 1: I can talk to. And so I realized that over 131 00:08:12,304 --> 00:08:14,264 Speaker 1: the years, I've just sort of shaped myself more and 132 00:08:14,304 --> 00:08:18,064 Speaker 1: more into a person who wasn't built to intimidate, Like 133 00:08:18,344 --> 00:08:20,344 Speaker 1: and I learned how to talk about my job in 134 00:08:20,344 --> 00:08:22,544 Speaker 1: a way that wasn't intimidating. Isn't the fun of it 135 00:08:22,584 --> 00:08:25,024 Speaker 1: just to be like with someone who blows your mind 136 00:08:25,064 --> 00:08:28,344 Speaker 1: and like is way above your league, one would think, 137 00:08:28,384 --> 00:08:30,544 Speaker 1: But maybe I'm doing it wrong, because no, no, you 138 00:08:30,544 --> 00:08:33,544 Speaker 1: have no trouble getting dates. You're definitely not dating wrong. 139 00:08:33,664 --> 00:08:37,224 Speaker 1: That's probably true, well at least well yeah, well your 140 00:08:37,264 --> 00:08:39,744 Speaker 1: bio for a while, was here for a good time, 141 00:08:40,064 --> 00:08:44,224 Speaker 1: not a long time. That's one I chose. Yep, wow, 142 00:08:44,344 --> 00:08:47,104 Speaker 1: embarrassing when you read it back to me. Now, yes, 143 00:08:47,304 --> 00:08:49,944 Speaker 1: well in that voice, let me try again. Good time, 144 00:08:49,984 --> 00:08:53,464 Speaker 1: not a long time? Yeah, a little better. I was 145 00:08:53,464 --> 00:08:57,384 Speaker 1: really judging the first time, yes, Jesus, Yeah, that sends 146 00:08:57,384 --> 00:09:00,264 Speaker 1: a message, it does, which is just like, I mean, 147 00:09:00,584 --> 00:09:05,464 Speaker 1: I'm easy, not expecting a lot, you know. Okay, So 148 00:09:05,504 --> 00:09:07,064 Speaker 1: In the article you talk about the fact that in 149 00:09:07,464 --> 00:09:11,744 Speaker 1: many ways you're very typical Tinder user, and what ways 150 00:09:11,744 --> 00:09:14,424 Speaker 1: are you in? What ways are you not? I guess 151 00:09:14,424 --> 00:09:17,744 Speaker 1: I'm like you know, most Tinder users in that I 152 00:09:17,744 --> 00:09:20,544 Speaker 1: don't know what I'm using it for, and I'm the 153 00:09:20,704 --> 00:09:24,024 Speaker 1: professional who college educated, and you know, it's just like 154 00:09:24,584 --> 00:09:26,184 Speaker 1: I'm not. I feel like I'm one of many of 155 00:09:26,184 --> 00:09:28,824 Speaker 1: the masses trying to find a date. I think things 156 00:09:28,864 --> 00:09:32,384 Speaker 1: that make me feel a little different is that, like, 157 00:09:32,424 --> 00:09:34,704 Speaker 1: it's it's a different experience dating as a black woman 158 00:09:34,904 --> 00:09:39,904 Speaker 1: on these apps. It's also like different dating in New 159 00:09:39,984 --> 00:09:43,424 Speaker 1: York sometimes because it's such a big market that like 160 00:09:43,504 --> 00:09:46,584 Speaker 1: everyone's getting like lost and swallowed up. And how is 161 00:09:46,584 --> 00:09:50,224 Speaker 1: it different being black on Tinder? Everybody gets harassed on 162 00:09:50,264 --> 00:09:52,464 Speaker 1: these things in one way or another. But I do 163 00:09:52,584 --> 00:09:55,904 Speaker 1: find like I get a lot more comments than some 164 00:09:55,944 --> 00:09:57,464 Speaker 1: of my friends on these apps to and I get 165 00:09:57,504 --> 00:10:00,944 Speaker 1: fewer matches and fewer dates, and it's sort of like, oh, 166 00:10:00,984 --> 00:10:03,344 Speaker 1: I do feel like the average Tinder user, except for 167 00:10:03,504 --> 00:10:06,424 Speaker 1: this one thing that makes it a lot harder for 168 00:10:06,464 --> 00:10:08,424 Speaker 1: me than say, some of my friends. You know, wait, 169 00:10:08,424 --> 00:10:10,704 Speaker 1: what kind of har are you talking about? One guy? 170 00:10:10,904 --> 00:10:13,664 Speaker 1: I swept on a couple of years ago. He was like, 171 00:10:13,824 --> 00:10:16,104 Speaker 1: I swept on you because you look so classy even 172 00:10:16,104 --> 00:10:18,704 Speaker 1: though you're black and he's and I was like, okay, 173 00:10:20,104 --> 00:10:23,504 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go ahead, like unmatched here. Wow, he found 174 00:10:23,504 --> 00:10:25,984 Speaker 1: a way to say articulate with a visual media. Yes, 175 00:10:26,064 --> 00:10:28,144 Speaker 1: I was actually you know what points to that guy 176 00:10:28,264 --> 00:10:31,544 Speaker 1: for like originality, because he really managed to do something 177 00:10:31,624 --> 00:10:34,984 Speaker 1: I didn't think anyone could. And then there was this 178 00:10:35,104 --> 00:10:38,184 Speaker 1: one guy who, like I rejected him and in his 179 00:10:38,264 --> 00:10:40,944 Speaker 1: sort of like ti rate of like why won't you 180 00:10:40,984 --> 00:10:43,424 Speaker 1: go out with me? It turned very quickly into like 181 00:10:44,064 --> 00:10:46,584 Speaker 1: using racial slurs, and I was like, well, we didn't 182 00:10:46,624 --> 00:10:49,944 Speaker 1: have to go there. And then I actually unmatched him 183 00:10:49,984 --> 00:10:52,224 Speaker 1: and then reported him because he got so vulgar and 184 00:10:52,344 --> 00:10:56,224 Speaker 1: violent and that was all race based, and I'm sure 185 00:10:56,224 --> 00:10:58,744 Speaker 1: he would have harassed another woman that turned him down 186 00:10:59,064 --> 00:11:02,304 Speaker 1: in equally as disgusting ways. But like it just feels 187 00:11:02,304 --> 00:11:07,704 Speaker 1: like I have this added layer of like exactly, yeah, yeah, 188 00:11:07,704 --> 00:11:10,744 Speaker 1: oh that's scary. Then there's like the fetish guys who 189 00:11:10,824 --> 00:11:13,504 Speaker 1: are like, oh, you know, I love black women or 190 00:11:14,224 --> 00:11:17,144 Speaker 1: want to complete the rainbow, just like oh god, complete 191 00:11:17,144 --> 00:11:20,744 Speaker 1: the rainbow. What that is really yeah, more than once. 192 00:11:20,744 --> 00:11:24,304 Speaker 1: I've heard that phrase. Wait, complete the rainbow? Wait what 193 00:11:24,424 --> 00:11:26,944 Speaker 1: is the rainbow? I didn't really ask so specifically, but 194 00:11:26,984 --> 00:11:30,824 Speaker 1: I guess all colors of the of the wind, every 195 00:11:30,904 --> 00:11:33,064 Speaker 1: nuance in between. He's got a lot of work to do, 196 00:11:33,424 --> 00:11:42,864 Speaker 1: was this, Jesse Jackson. Yes, that's wow. That's a crazy 197 00:11:42,904 --> 00:11:45,104 Speaker 1: thing to think. No, let's say out loud. I know 198 00:11:45,464 --> 00:11:47,944 Speaker 1: people are people, you know. That's one thing I will 199 00:11:47,984 --> 00:11:50,984 Speaker 1: give tender. It has opened my world to so many 200 00:11:50,984 --> 00:11:53,264 Speaker 1: people that I never would have spoken to, so many 201 00:11:53,264 --> 00:11:56,384 Speaker 1: people that have in original ways of thinking that I 202 00:11:56,384 --> 00:12:00,064 Speaker 1: could never imagine a human brain doing, but they do. 203 00:12:00,184 --> 00:12:05,784 Speaker 1: It's it's kind of anthropologically at least, very fascinating. After 204 00:12:05,824 --> 00:12:10,304 Speaker 1: the break, Allison's anthropology experiment continues for her way longer 205 00:12:10,344 --> 00:12:23,024 Speaker 1: than any anthropology experiment since Jane Goodall. So here's what 206 00:12:23,104 --> 00:12:28,304 Speaker 1: makes Alison's Tinder experience so unusual. After she downloaded the 207 00:12:28,344 --> 00:12:31,424 Speaker 1: app to make her boyfriend jealous, she stayed on Tinder 208 00:12:31,504 --> 00:12:35,944 Speaker 1: for ten years, and in that time she never went 209 00:12:36,024 --> 00:12:40,944 Speaker 1: on a fifth date with anybody ever. So Alison might 210 00:12:41,064 --> 00:12:45,264 Speaker 1: know more about dating than anyone in human history. And 211 00:12:45,584 --> 00:12:48,104 Speaker 1: I got to see her swiping in action. Are you 212 00:12:48,144 --> 00:12:50,984 Speaker 1: still on Tinder and if so, can we do it together? 213 00:12:52,744 --> 00:12:56,544 Speaker 1: I am still on Tinder? Can we swipe? So? I 214 00:12:56,704 --> 00:12:59,504 Speaker 1: just to start? What? What? What? Wait? Let me see 215 00:12:59,544 --> 00:13:05,424 Speaker 1: the phone? Okay, is it Alec Baldwin? Now? Oh my god? 216 00:13:05,704 --> 00:13:08,224 Speaker 1: Is this a winner or loser? Well? Stal read the 217 00:13:08,224 --> 00:13:13,584 Speaker 1: biot you because okay? UM looking for a submissive female 218 00:13:13,584 --> 00:13:17,384 Speaker 1: who enjoys being dominated in bed, spanking, hair pulling, being 219 00:13:17,424 --> 00:13:19,984 Speaker 1: told what to do. If that's something you enjoy, contact 220 00:13:20,064 --> 00:13:26,024 Speaker 1: me very forward. That's how we started. That was number one. Okay, 221 00:13:26,224 --> 00:13:29,144 Speaker 1: So the dominator is a no. Who's next? Okay? This 222 00:13:29,224 --> 00:13:33,064 Speaker 1: guy seems nice. It would be two nices, okay. This 223 00:13:33,144 --> 00:13:37,384 Speaker 1: guy's thirty eight. He's wearing a Tuck's at in Vegas. 224 00:13:37,464 --> 00:13:40,504 Speaker 1: Or he's a lot of phos more vacation shot. Oh 225 00:13:40,544 --> 00:13:43,024 Speaker 1: my god, Oh my god, he's sitting on a throne 226 00:13:43,184 --> 00:13:45,984 Speaker 1: with velvet robes and a crown. This guy's a yes 227 00:13:46,104 --> 00:13:48,864 Speaker 1: or no? Okay? Well, okay, big film buff travel as 228 00:13:48,944 --> 00:13:51,024 Speaker 1: much as I can. Where should I go next? French 229 00:13:51,064 --> 00:13:55,904 Speaker 1: fry enthusiasts? Um, Okay, here's why I'm gonna say not 230 00:13:55,984 --> 00:13:59,704 Speaker 1: for me, Because I'm personal looking for somebody that's really 231 00:13:59,704 --> 00:14:04,384 Speaker 1: dedicated to their job. This person they part time artist, 232 00:14:05,344 --> 00:14:09,264 Speaker 1: full time dreamer. Oh you know, because now I feel 233 00:14:09,264 --> 00:14:12,144 Speaker 1: bout I most swipe right. No, you're not real, I am. 234 00:14:12,144 --> 00:14:14,024 Speaker 1: I feel like that was discrude of me. And this 235 00:14:14,064 --> 00:14:16,104 Speaker 1: guy seems very nice and he likes movies and French 236 00:14:16,104 --> 00:14:19,424 Speaker 1: fries and I love those things too. Wait, the guy 237 00:14:19,744 --> 00:14:23,144 Speaker 1: who's a full time dreamer and he's wearing one of 238 00:14:23,144 --> 00:14:25,144 Speaker 1: the ways he wants to present himself is wearing a hat, 239 00:14:25,944 --> 00:14:28,504 Speaker 1: a king crown on a throne, and the other way 240 00:14:28,544 --> 00:14:31,184 Speaker 1: he wants to present himself is with a Tommy Bahama shirt. 241 00:14:31,504 --> 00:14:34,504 Speaker 1: He gets the swipe right. I'm judging. I'm sorry, that's 242 00:14:34,504 --> 00:14:36,944 Speaker 1: got swipe right. Move on, Okay, okay, all right, I 243 00:14:37,024 --> 00:14:39,264 Speaker 1: just feel bad about my He doesn't know. Why would 244 00:14:39,264 --> 00:14:42,224 Speaker 1: you feel bad? Now? It's a match. It's a match. Match, 245 00:14:42,384 --> 00:14:45,384 Speaker 1: of course, it's a match. What are you shocked? We're 246 00:14:45,384 --> 00:14:47,224 Speaker 1: gonna have to figure that out. Now you have to 247 00:14:47,224 --> 00:14:49,544 Speaker 1: go on a date with him. What did I just do? 248 00:14:49,704 --> 00:14:53,664 Speaker 1: This is your fault. I was not advocating for the 249 00:14:53,744 --> 00:14:57,304 Speaker 1: king guy. Also, we're definitely done swiping now because I've 250 00:14:57,304 --> 00:15:00,544 Speaker 1: done this. There's a time it's a time limit. I'm 251 00:15:00,584 --> 00:15:04,024 Speaker 1: only allowed fifteen minutes on twur a day. Oh that's 252 00:15:04,104 --> 00:15:08,584 Speaker 1: you set that for yourself. I did. Yes, Oh that's 253 00:15:08,624 --> 00:15:11,464 Speaker 1: not there article that was left out of the article. 254 00:15:11,824 --> 00:15:14,024 Speaker 1: There's a lot of stuff that didn't naked for space, 255 00:15:14,144 --> 00:15:18,224 Speaker 1: but yes, that is yeah, yeah, yeah, you sum up 256 00:15:18,304 --> 00:15:20,744 Speaker 1: kind of the problem with Tinder through the story at 257 00:15:20,784 --> 00:15:22,904 Speaker 1: the end of your piece. That's about these very two 258 00:15:22,944 --> 00:15:25,544 Speaker 1: different guys that you met around the same time. So 259 00:15:25,704 --> 00:15:27,424 Speaker 1: who were these two guys and what did they teach 260 00:15:27,424 --> 00:15:29,824 Speaker 1: you about yourself? Yeah? So I wanted to date with 261 00:15:29,864 --> 00:15:31,984 Speaker 1: this guy and he was very handsome, and he was 262 00:15:32,024 --> 00:15:36,784 Speaker 1: intelligent and you know, a Columbia MFA student who was 263 00:15:36,824 --> 00:15:40,544 Speaker 1: like also read and translated literature on the on the side, 264 00:15:40,544 --> 00:15:43,584 Speaker 1: like to someone who like you know, was responsible and 265 00:15:43,704 --> 00:15:45,744 Speaker 1: for the most part, like ticked all the boxes of 266 00:15:45,784 --> 00:15:47,904 Speaker 1: what like I is a thirty six ye obleman should 267 00:15:47,904 --> 00:15:51,384 Speaker 1: be looking for. And I felt like nothing, you know, 268 00:15:51,424 --> 00:15:53,464 Speaker 1: like there was no like jump in my stomach. There 269 00:15:53,544 --> 00:15:57,664 Speaker 1: was no like uh like fire of my loins or whatever. 270 00:15:57,824 --> 00:15:59,984 Speaker 1: Someone you would have slotted into the friend zone in 271 00:16:00,024 --> 00:16:03,824 Speaker 1: my era. Yeah. So then I went in at my 272 00:16:03,864 --> 00:16:06,824 Speaker 1: friends at a bar and I met a friend of 273 00:16:06,864 --> 00:16:08,784 Speaker 1: a friend that i'd met I guess like once before, 274 00:16:08,904 --> 00:16:11,104 Speaker 1: never thought much about. But there was something that like 275 00:16:11,224 --> 00:16:14,064 Speaker 1: changed in the energy that night, where like I felt 276 00:16:14,104 --> 00:16:18,584 Speaker 1: like whoosh, like this person and we were talking and 277 00:16:18,664 --> 00:16:20,344 Speaker 1: he was leaning in and doing the yelling in my 278 00:16:20,384 --> 00:16:22,984 Speaker 1: face thing close enough to me that he bonked me 279 00:16:22,984 --> 00:16:24,424 Speaker 1: in the side of the head while he was trying 280 00:16:24,424 --> 00:16:27,664 Speaker 1: to man splain in my ear, and it was so 281 00:16:27,944 --> 00:16:29,864 Speaker 1: like it it was almost as if we had like 282 00:16:29,904 --> 00:16:32,224 Speaker 1: already had sex because that face it was like so 283 00:16:32,384 --> 00:16:38,664 Speaker 1: much electricity in the face bonk. Now he's like a 284 00:16:38,944 --> 00:16:42,424 Speaker 1: like a bad idea walking, you know, like yeah, it's 285 00:16:42,424 --> 00:16:44,824 Speaker 1: like what he's like dirt bag hot. And I think 286 00:16:44,864 --> 00:16:46,304 Speaker 1: he was truly I think he was like in an 287 00:16:46,304 --> 00:16:48,704 Speaker 1: open relationship. Like nothing about it was like this is 288 00:16:48,704 --> 00:16:51,104 Speaker 1: what you a woman who like would like a relationship 289 00:16:51,424 --> 00:16:54,824 Speaker 1: should want withal like every cell. But I also just 290 00:16:54,864 --> 00:16:58,104 Speaker 1: like didn't know what to do with like wanting a person, 291 00:16:58,304 --> 00:17:00,864 Speaker 1: you know, and like how one acts on that in 292 00:17:00,944 --> 00:17:04,264 Speaker 1: real life, like, which is probably partially why I left 293 00:17:04,264 --> 00:17:06,864 Speaker 1: the bar. I was like too overwhelmed. And then the 294 00:17:06,864 --> 00:17:09,944 Speaker 1: next day I decided that like no, four Green apartment 295 00:17:09,984 --> 00:17:13,464 Speaker 1: guy who translates books, I will send you a text 296 00:17:13,504 --> 00:17:16,064 Speaker 1: and ask you on date number two, you know, because 297 00:17:16,144 --> 00:17:18,744 Speaker 1: that you never hooked up with the mullet guy. No, no, 298 00:17:19,424 --> 00:17:25,584 Speaker 1: I just g appressed it. But maybe the electricity of 299 00:17:25,624 --> 00:17:27,864 Speaker 1: a party and a night and the thing you're not 300 00:17:27,904 --> 00:17:31,544 Speaker 1: supposed to do isn't isn't the right choice. Maybe the 301 00:17:31,664 --> 00:17:33,984 Speaker 1: right choice is the guy who you have more in 302 00:17:34,024 --> 00:17:37,424 Speaker 1: common with. Like, it seems like you maybe did the 303 00:17:37,504 --> 00:17:40,144 Speaker 1: right thing. Okay, you would think, but I do think 304 00:17:40,184 --> 00:17:42,984 Speaker 1: there's something to be said for just sitting down and 305 00:17:43,064 --> 00:17:47,944 Speaker 1: knowing from a place that cannot be listical, this is 306 00:17:47,944 --> 00:17:49,584 Speaker 1: a person that I would like to see again, and 307 00:17:49,624 --> 00:17:52,304 Speaker 1: I can't really explain why, but like there's something that's 308 00:17:52,344 --> 00:17:55,064 Speaker 1: pulling me to you. And maybe it'll be short, but 309 00:17:55,144 --> 00:17:57,704 Speaker 1: it'll be intimate, and maybe it'll be long and you'll 310 00:17:57,704 --> 00:18:00,184 Speaker 1: be the one. But like what I think that on 311 00:18:00,264 --> 00:18:03,144 Speaker 1: my or app dating has sort of robbed me personally 312 00:18:03,184 --> 00:18:05,104 Speaker 1: of and I can't seek for everyone. Is just the 313 00:18:05,144 --> 00:18:07,184 Speaker 1: sort of getting it out of my head and into 314 00:18:07,224 --> 00:18:10,584 Speaker 1: my body. That makes sense, right, There has to be 315 00:18:10,664 --> 00:18:16,304 Speaker 1: something drawing you to that person that you feel. Yeah, 316 00:18:16,704 --> 00:18:18,664 Speaker 1: you say a couple things in the story I just 317 00:18:18,744 --> 00:18:21,784 Speaker 1: want to explore because they were so smart. I'm gonna 318 00:18:21,784 --> 00:18:23,344 Speaker 1: read them. I'm gonna read your own writing back to 319 00:18:23,344 --> 00:18:26,024 Speaker 1: you for a second. It's easy to overestimate the way 320 00:18:26,064 --> 00:18:29,424 Speaker 1: technology shapes us and to discount the way technology bends 321 00:18:29,464 --> 00:18:32,984 Speaker 1: to our needs and wills and desires. It's possible Tinder 322 00:18:33,064 --> 00:18:36,504 Speaker 1: didn't do anything but promise us connection and we're the 323 00:18:36,544 --> 00:18:40,464 Speaker 1: ones who decided how we wanted to connect. It seems 324 00:18:40,504 --> 00:18:42,824 Speaker 1: really wise to me, like did Tinder bend to who 325 00:18:42,824 --> 00:18:46,664 Speaker 1: you are? Or Tinder make you act differently? I think 326 00:18:46,704 --> 00:18:49,104 Speaker 1: about the time in my life when I downloaded Tinder, 327 00:18:49,424 --> 00:18:51,824 Speaker 1: when I was like much younger than I am now 328 00:18:51,984 --> 00:18:54,984 Speaker 1: ten years and unsure about what I wanted out of 329 00:18:54,984 --> 00:18:56,904 Speaker 1: life and who I wanted it with and where I 330 00:18:56,944 --> 00:19:00,144 Speaker 1: wanted to be and who I was. And so the 331 00:19:00,184 --> 00:19:03,584 Speaker 1: foundation that I laid by using it the way that 332 00:19:03,624 --> 00:19:07,384 Speaker 1: I did, which was like truly just pure chaos and 333 00:19:07,424 --> 00:19:10,784 Speaker 1: just like whatever happens happened, I built this like little 334 00:19:10,784 --> 00:19:13,144 Speaker 1: house of dating on like a real fucked up foundation, 335 00:19:13,344 --> 00:19:15,384 Speaker 1: because you know, like I just didn't I didn't know 336 00:19:15,384 --> 00:19:17,104 Speaker 1: how to use the app in the way that I 337 00:19:17,144 --> 00:19:20,624 Speaker 1: want to now, if that makes sense. We are always, 338 00:19:20,744 --> 00:19:24,664 Speaker 1: as dater is, prone to being flaky, or being overwhelmed 339 00:19:24,784 --> 00:19:27,624 Speaker 1: or wondering if we could do better. We were prone 340 00:19:27,664 --> 00:19:29,864 Speaker 1: to having to dehumanize in some ways, but it just 341 00:19:29,904 --> 00:19:31,544 Speaker 1: made it so much easier to do it on such 342 00:19:31,584 --> 00:19:37,464 Speaker 1: a larger scale that it bent to our will. But 343 00:19:37,504 --> 00:19:40,784 Speaker 1: then it's made it impossible to come back to like 344 00:19:40,824 --> 00:19:44,024 Speaker 1: the neutral point. Yeah, it's like everything else about technology 345 00:19:44,064 --> 00:19:48,704 Speaker 1: that exacerbated, you know, our instincts, Like it seems to 346 00:19:48,704 --> 00:19:50,104 Speaker 1: be like we haven't figured out how to come back 347 00:19:50,144 --> 00:19:53,104 Speaker 1: from any of it, any of the dopamine heads. You 348 00:19:53,184 --> 00:19:55,704 Speaker 1: asked this question in the piece. If I had never 349 00:19:55,824 --> 00:19:59,544 Speaker 1: downloaded the app, would I still be single? If you 350 00:19:59,624 --> 00:20:02,184 Speaker 1: had to answer that, what's your answer? I think I 351 00:20:03,224 --> 00:20:06,384 Speaker 1: think I'd be in a relationship right now, I'm being honest. Wow, Yeah, 352 00:20:06,424 --> 00:20:10,064 Speaker 1: I think that I would have left singledom behind because 353 00:20:10,064 --> 00:20:12,824 Speaker 1: of the pomo of it or which part. What Tinder 354 00:20:12,864 --> 00:20:16,424 Speaker 1: has enabled for me is that like I don't feel 355 00:20:16,464 --> 00:20:19,904 Speaker 1: so worried about loneliness, or I don't feel so worried 356 00:20:19,944 --> 00:20:23,024 Speaker 1: about like feeling undesired, or that I won't be able 357 00:20:23,064 --> 00:20:24,904 Speaker 1: to have sex or like this, or that It's like 358 00:20:24,984 --> 00:20:28,904 Speaker 1: I know that because I have this thing, there is 359 00:20:28,944 --> 00:20:31,024 Speaker 1: always somebody that I can swipe right on. It's just 360 00:20:31,064 --> 00:20:33,864 Speaker 1: maybe better at being alone. You know you have an 361 00:20:33,864 --> 00:20:39,984 Speaker 1: on demand boyfriend. I have many on demand boyfriends. Alison P. 362 00:20:40,144 --> 00:20:43,584 Speaker 1: Davis's story My Tinder Decade was published in New York Magazine. 363 00:20:44,144 --> 00:20:46,904 Speaker 1: She's currently writing a book called Horny about trying to 364 00:20:46,944 --> 00:20:49,424 Speaker 1: have sex during a time when it's weird to have sex, 365 00:20:49,864 --> 00:20:55,424 Speaker 1: which in my experience is anytime. We often assume that 366 00:20:55,464 --> 00:20:59,184 Speaker 1: we're just computers, that we can upload our brains to 367 00:20:59,264 --> 00:21:01,584 Speaker 1: the metaverse. In our life would be the same, and 368 00:21:01,624 --> 00:21:05,504 Speaker 1: there's no difference between artificial intelligence and us, and that 369 00:21:05,624 --> 00:21:07,824 Speaker 1: some algorithm can figure out who we're supposed to be 370 00:21:07,824 --> 00:21:11,624 Speaker 1: married too. But when marriage gets hard, you need more 371 00:21:11,624 --> 00:21:15,144 Speaker 1: than some checklist to get you through your selfish instincts. 372 00:21:15,944 --> 00:21:19,064 Speaker 1: I mean, when everyone else's marriage gets hard, my marriage 373 00:21:19,104 --> 00:21:25,824 Speaker 1: is perfect. Despite what e Harmony might think. At the 374 00:21:26,024 --> 00:21:29,224 Speaker 1: end of the show, what's next for joel Stein? Maybe 375 00:21:29,224 --> 00:21:33,624 Speaker 1: he'll take a never booke around on Our Show Today 376 00:21:33,704 --> 00:21:38,344 Speaker 1: was produced by Lydia Gencott and Nisha Vencut, with production 377 00:21:38,384 --> 00:21:42,224 Speaker 1: support from Kate mccauloff. It was edited by Robert Smith. 378 00:21:42,704 --> 00:21:47,424 Speaker 1: Our engineer is Amanda kay Wang. Our executive producer is 379 00:21:47,544 --> 00:21:51,384 Speaker 1: Katherine Shirado and our theme song was written and performed 380 00:21:51,384 --> 00:21:55,424 Speaker 1: by Jonathan Colton and a special thanks to my voice 381 00:21:55,464 --> 00:21:59,744 Speaker 1: coach Vicky Merrick and my consulting producer laurenz Elasnie. To 382 00:21:59,784 --> 00:22:04,504 Speaker 1: find more Pushkin podcast, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 383 00:22:04,864 --> 00:22:07,624 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your podcasts. I'm Joel Stein 384 00:22:08,264 --> 00:22:12,864 Speaker 1: and this his story of the week. Okay, wait, I 385 00:22:12,864 --> 00:22:19,904 Speaker 1: found someone that's a definite yes, oh you haven't stopped. Sorry, Okay, 386 00:22:19,984 --> 00:22:22,304 Speaker 1: he's thirty one, a little too young, but that's fine. 387 00:22:22,344 --> 00:22:25,904 Speaker 1: A sculptor. Let me say. Look, I'm a cute man. 388 00:22:26,544 --> 00:22:30,624 Speaker 1: That's my type, a little dregs, good, good beard. He 389 00:22:30,664 --> 00:22:35,544 Speaker 1: looks like he might be in Brooklyn. He's definitely in Brooklyn. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Oh, 390 00:22:35,584 --> 00:22:40,184 Speaker 1: I'm hopeful on this guy coming up on Story of 391 00:22:40,224 --> 00:22:43,264 Speaker 1: the Week. I could not convey in words how terrible 392 00:22:43,344 --> 00:22:46,384 Speaker 1: I was at LARPing and I'm being loud and I 393 00:22:46,464 --> 00:22:48,504 Speaker 1: hate the sound of my voice in my own ears. 394 00:22:48,664 --> 00:22:50,304 Speaker 1: I just want to hide, I just want to crawl 395 00:22:50,384 --> 00:22:54,984 Speaker 1: under something. Is this a miserable, sweaty experience so far? Oh? Insane? Insane? 396 00:22:55,504 --> 00:22:57,064 Speaker 1: And of course you're like, well, I've just now committed 397 00:22:57,104 --> 00:22:59,784 Speaker 1: to four days of pretending to be this teenager. It 398 00:22:59,864 --> 00:23:03,424 Speaker 1: just the whole thing feels cringey and awful and awkward, 399 00:23:03,544 --> 00:23:09,824 Speaker 1: and I don't know what I've gotten myself into. One 400 00:23:11,304 --> 00:23:11,424 Speaker 1: fo