1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:05,279 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 2: It's about the fascination with Columbine and the sort of 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 2: specter of the school shooter, and also this young woman, Lindsay, 4 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 2: who became obsessed with Columbine and then planned the mass 5 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 2: shooting of her own. 6 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 7 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 8 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold war Wicked on Exactly Right. I've 9 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 10 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 11 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 12 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we 13 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 14 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents. Wicked Words is 15 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: about the choices that writers make, good and bad. It's 16 00:00:54,880 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: a deep dive into the stories behind the stories. Rachel 17 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: Monroe is a journalist and author who spends a lot 18 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: of time thinking about true crime and women. She has 19 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 1: a book called Savage Appetites, Four true stories of women, 20 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: crime and obsession. It's an interesting read because she examines 21 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 1: true crime through four narratives, each looking at a different 22 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: role women play. So in the chapter titled Detective, Rachel 23 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: recalls the story of the woman who created dollhouse crime scenes. 24 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,199 Speaker 1: There are stories titled defender and victim, but we're looking 25 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: at the story titled killer. In the annals of history, 26 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: women have gathered in courtrooms and viewed men who are 27 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: on trial for murder with a certain level of fascination, 28 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: which you would not think in Victorian England or Victorian 29 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: America would be the case. But where do we start 30 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: with this kind of story? Can we look back that 31 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: far with Lindsay's take on Columbine and see just a 32 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: thread running through history of this. 33 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 2: The two things that I think about with Lindsay are 34 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 2: both On the one hand, how is she and these 35 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 2: other women and girls who profess affection or love for 36 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 2: convicted murderers, murderers on trial in what way are they 37 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 2: just like the rest of us, reflecting decietal fascination that 38 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 2: we have for these people, in the way that they're 39 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 2: put on a pedestal and given this kind of dark celebrity. 40 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 2: And in what sense is this a specifically gendered thing? 41 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 3: And how is it different for a girl like Lindsay. 42 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: I'll definitely be interested in hearing from you why she 43 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: ended up where she ended up. So let's start from 44 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: the beginning. Tell me a little bit about where she 45 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: grew up and all that. 46 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 2: I think this story could have gone in a lot 47 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 2: of different directions. Lindsay spent most of her childhood in 48 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 2: the suburbs of Chicago. Her father was from Laos upper 49 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 2: middle class family. They had a horse, They took cultural 50 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 2: enrichment trips around the world. 51 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: Okay, so so far this seems like a nice, well 52 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 1: adjusted family. I wonder if Lindsay felt growing up and 53 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 1: if she was really close with them. 54 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 2: One of the things that's tricky with Lindsay is that 55 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 2: sometimes she has one take on her family and her 56 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 2: growing up experience, and her family sometimes has something different. So, 57 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 2: according to her mother, she experienced a lot of bullying 58 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 2: and particularly for being biracial. 59 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 3: According to her, that didn't happen. She didn't have any 60 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 3: problems at all. 61 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: Around puberty, she starts both spending a lot of time 62 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 2: online and then becoming really fascinated with these sort of 63 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 2: darker subcultures online, the world of deviant. 64 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 3: Art and creepy pasta. 65 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 2: I don't know if your listeners will be familiar if 66 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 2: you were like a little bit of a kid with 67 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 2: kind of goth, kind of nerdy tendencies. And these were 68 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 2: websites where you could go and write stories or share 69 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 2: fan art. She's a really talented artist, and so these 70 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 2: are the kind of internet worlds that she's into. She's 71 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: into Harry Potter, fantastic escapist internet worlds. I talk to 72 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 2: some people who knew her in high school, around in 73 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 2: her teenage years, and it did seem like she she 74 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 2: presented to the role as a very shy person, pretty awkward, 75 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 2: and then if you read her online, I don't know, 76 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 2: she kind of blossoms on the computer a little bit. 77 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 2: She's a good writer, she's funny, she's strange. These characteristics 78 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 2: that maybe were tricky at a suburban high school were 79 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,799 Speaker 2: really celebrated online. So you start to see her spending 80 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 2: more and more of her time online. 81 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 4: Is this pre MySpace or Facebook post MySpace? The early 82 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 4: I guess time for social media, the glory days of 83 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 4: these kind of message boards which used to be where 84 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 4: she spent more of her time, which were like a 85 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 4: little bit more anonymous. She created a million different personas, 86 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 4: so you start to see her maybe having some confusion 87 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 4: with reality. Like what, she has a really strong imagination 88 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 4: and she created in some of these stories sort of 89 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 4: like an imaginary boyfriend character who was death, a grim 90 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 4: reaper kind of figure who she would draw, but. 91 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 2: Then she would times also start to tell her friend 92 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 2: he's my boyfriend and refer to him as if he 93 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,359 Speaker 2: was real. You start to see her maybe not always 94 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: be entirely in touchment reality and escaping into this sort 95 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 2: of fantasy world where she has love and she has affection, 96 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 2: and she has somebody who's you know, completely devoted to her. 97 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:19,799 Speaker 1: So she is kind of going into a fantasy world, 98 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 1: but it seems like she might not really be able 99 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: to distinguish sometimes between reality and fiction. 100 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 2: And it's so hard right when there are kids with 101 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 2: really active imaginations. I mean, it's sort of a delightful 102 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 2: thing too. I talked to one of her creative writing teachers. 103 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 2: She always got a lot of praise for her imagination 104 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 2: and it was like a real strength of hers And so, 105 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 2: you know, what point does that become pathological? 106 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 3: She does start to ring some alarm. 107 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 2: Bells because she becomes in high school through the Internet, 108 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 2: sort of increasingly drawn into these internet worlds of these far. 109 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 3: Right communities at the same time. 110 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 2: And I think that is people treating what happened on 111 00:05:57,480 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: the Internet as kind of a joke or not real 112 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 2: or not serious. 113 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 3: I think people weren't quite sure what to do about this. 114 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 2: Her teachers, her classmates, she's this very shy, very quiet, 115 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 2: biracial girl who's suddenly involving Nazi themes in her creative 116 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 2: writing stories. 117 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: Wow, like sympathetic Nazi scenes. 118 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 2: In this section that I wrote, I kind of parallel 119 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 2: her a little bit with iin RAND. It's less about 120 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 2: the ideology for her and more about the appeal of 121 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 2: these powerful, cruel figures who don't care what anybody else 122 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 2: thinks about them, and who are sort of above other people, 123 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 2: which was very much not not her real experience in 124 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 2: the lived world, but you could sort of imagine how 125 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 2: it would be in a fantasy world sort of appealing. 126 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 2: And so her teachers, you know, really have a hard 127 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 2: time dealing with this. Sometimes she gets called into the 128 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 2: principal's office. Sometimes she gets reprimanded, so they try to 129 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 2: steer her away from it, praise her for writing other things. 130 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 3: Her classmates sort of don't quite know what to do 131 00:06:58,720 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 3: with her. 132 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 2: She definitely loses some friends, but other people sort of 133 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 2: seem to take it as a she's acting out, she's 134 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 2: trying to be edgy. I mean, this is another thing 135 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 2: we see certainly a lot with teenagers and a lot online, 136 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 2: is this desire to kind of provoke a response or 137 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,679 Speaker 2: be shocking or flo out these taboos, and so people 138 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 2: were sort of treating it like that, kind of rolling 139 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 2: their eyes a little bit. 140 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: Her parents had no clue. Well, obviously they were getting 141 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: called in probably or their teachers. 142 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 2: She said later that her parents sometimes would be like, 143 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 2: you're depressed, you're anxious, would kind of come up with 144 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 2: these diagnoses, would try to send her to therapists, would 145 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 2: you know, pursue various treatment things, which she was really 146 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 2: at least as she said at the time, like very 147 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 2: offended by. 148 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 3: Basically she didn't want to be labeled. She didn't want 149 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 3: to be labeled. 150 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 2: Increasingly in her fantasy world, right, she's this superior being. 151 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 3: So why would anybody say that there's anything wrong with her? 152 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: Is she getting attention from young men online? 153 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 2: Do we think she definitely has a very sexy and 154 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 2: provocative online at least that's part of one of her 155 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 2: person is dressing up, using these kind of filters on 156 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 2: her face to make her eyes look really huge, dressing 157 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 2: and sexy outfits. I don't know if this begins in 158 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 2: high school or if it begins a little bit later, 159 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 2: but that ends up being a big part of her persona. 160 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 2: She has an internet boyfriend, and that seems where like 161 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 2: a lot of this Nazi stuff comes to being. It's 162 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 2: hard to know did the internet Nazi boyfriend come first, 163 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 2: or did she become an Internet Nazi and then get 164 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 2: a Nazi boyfriend. But he's sort of a disturbing figure 165 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 2: who was the founder of this very alarming internet forum 166 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 2: called Iron March, which has been linked to the number 167 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 2: of Murder's white nationalist groups. This is the world that 168 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 2: she's in, and this is her internet love, and so 169 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 2: this is all happening online, but while she's still, you know, 170 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,719 Speaker 2: going to high school and leading a relatively normal high 171 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 2: school girl life. 172 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 3: And then she goes to college kind of more of 173 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 3: the same. 174 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: Where did she go to school. 175 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:50,679 Speaker 3: She went to. 176 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 2: Co College, which is a small liberal arts school in Iowa. 177 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 2: She's nearby, not too far from her family, stays in 178 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 2: the Midwest, has a really hard time making friends, has 179 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 2: a roommate freshman year, and then that roommate, you know, 180 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 2: moves out after a semesters. 181 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 3: This girl's too weird. 182 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 2: She's just a very isolated person, except for online, where 183 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 2: she seems to have a number of people who she's 184 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 2: close to and feels connected to. At some point, this 185 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 2: internet nazi boyfriend breaks up with her. She flips out, 186 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 2: and she ends up getting kicked off of that forum 187 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 2: because she won't stop spamming it and trolling it, and 188 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 2: so she has too much of a troll for the 189 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 2: Nazi forum, which is. 190 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: She sounds like she's really going downhill a little older 191 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: that she gets some more kind of aggressive online. 192 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 2: She's getting Yeah, she's getting aggressive online. Her connections with 193 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 2: the outside world are diminishing. She ends up developing quite 194 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 2: a bit of anger that she directs toward happy couples. 195 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 2: She feels romantically rejected. She feels like a great amount 196 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 2: of despair about it. It's interesting if you read some 197 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 2: of what she writes. There's a lot of resonance with 198 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 2: the in cell community. Most of them are boys, right, 199 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 2: this involuntary celibate community that happens online that has also 200 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 2: been linked to a number of mass shootings or attempted 201 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 2: mass shootings. 202 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: Tell me about this, You don't want to. 203 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 3: Start googling it because you get really depressed. 204 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 2: So it's I n CEL and it's short for involuntary celibate. 205 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 2: This most notorious in CELL and somebody who gets invoked 206 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 2: a lot in this community. And this is a community 207 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 2: on Reddit and elsewhere online where it's mostly young men 208 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 2: who I identify as involuntary celibate. Why don't girls like 209 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 2: me fostering in each other? A lot of rage usually 210 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 2: against women and against other men for having this sex 211 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 2: in love that they don't have. Elliott Roger, who's this 212 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 2: rich young man who drove through Santa Barbara and shot 213 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 2: at and killed a number of He was attempting to 214 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 2: target a sorority and had this manifesto online about how 215 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 2: angry he was that he wasn't given the attention in 216 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 2: love that he felt he deserved, and so he was 217 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 2: going to go murder a bunch of women. There's a 218 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 2: shooting at a yoga studio I believe in Toronto. I mean, 219 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 2: there just are a number of these sexually frustrated young 220 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 2: men who go online and egg each other of. 221 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 1: What is supposed to be the point. What is the 222 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: result of these groups? Are they encouraging them to do 223 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: what nothing? 224 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 2: Or I think it's sort of the dark side of 225 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 2: social media. The benefit of social media is you sort 226 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,319 Speaker 2: of feel like, hey, I'm not alone. I feel such 227 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 2: despair and rage in my social role that I have 228 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 2: or my inability to connect with people, and so I 229 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 2: go online and I realize other people feel the same thing, 230 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 2: which could be a good thing, But in these communities 231 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 2: they just mutually reinforce. It's really dark and it's very 232 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 2: depressing to read. I think they might have been kicked 233 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 2: off of Reddit at this point, so with a lot 234 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 2: of people kind of validating each other as really negative 235 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 2: beliefs about the world or about women. 236 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:39,719 Speaker 3: So she's not on. 237 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 2: These forums as far as I know, she reminds me 238 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 2: a lot of these groups in this feeling of romantic 239 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 2: frustration that is directed as rage. It's a sort of 240 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 2: despair and an inability to connect. 241 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,319 Speaker 1: Is she visiting her family? Does she have a connection 242 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: with her family at this point? Once she's kind of 243 00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 1: in college and a young adult. 244 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 2: The point at which I start to follow her story 245 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 2: the most closely is after she's graduated, and at that 246 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 2: point she's living back home, so once she's done with school, 247 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,079 Speaker 2: that's sort of the place that she retreats to at some. 248 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 3: Point for one of her creative writing classes. 249 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 2: She starts writing a novel which involves a subplot about 250 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 2: a school shooting, and so she goes online to start 251 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:22,599 Speaker 2: researching school shootings. 252 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: Runs across Columbine. 253 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 2: Of course, yes, finds this whole world, and I should 254 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 2: say she has a lot of trouble connecting to people, 255 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 2: a lot of challenges, a lot of repugnant interests, but 256 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 2: she's also really interested in fashion. She's interested in fantasy 257 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 2: novels and fantasy worlds like that. You could imagine her 258 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 2: being drawn into a different kind of world. 259 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 3: Things were sort of slightly different. 260 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 2: If she was sort of able to get out of 261 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 2: this kind of hole that she was in, maybe things 262 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 2: could have gone differently. But she has a Tumblr blog 263 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 2: up until this point is mostly fashion images, Runway high fashion, 264 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 2: loves wearing high heels, and she starts finding this community 265 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 2: that's that's devoted to Columbine on Tumblr, the Columbiners. I 266 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 2: first wrote about them almost ten years ago and kind 267 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 2: of how I found Lindsay's case in the first place, 268 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 2: because I was interested in this. It's a very strange community. 269 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 2: When I first founded it was mostly teenage girls. Tumblr 270 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 2: is a great place for you sort of make a 271 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 2: shrine to your crush, and you could do other things 272 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 2: on Tumblr, but it's mostly it's your reblogging pictures. You 273 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 2: imagine the door of my room and all the walls 274 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 2: of my room when I was a teenager just covered 275 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 2: in photos of this embarrassing rock star that I had 276 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 2: to crush on. 277 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 3: So Tumblr is sort of like the digital version. 278 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 2: Of this, right where you just have pictures, pictures, pictures, pictures, pictures, 279 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 2: and the columnbiners are applying this sort of crush aesthetic 280 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 2: to the Columbine shooters. 281 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 3: And the whole thing was aired live on TV. 282 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 2: There had been like a handful of school shootings before that, 283 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 2: but this one much higher body count. Those other school 284 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 2: shootings were over very quickly, you know, in a matter 285 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 2: of seconds. 286 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 3: This one. 287 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 2: The actual shooting probably took place over twenty or thirty minutes, 288 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 2: but we didn't know that it it ended when it did, 289 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 2: so you know, there were swat teams converging on the building, 290 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,199 Speaker 2: so you have basically for three or four hours, this 291 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 2: live feed of the school under siege. So it just 292 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 2: becomes this huge media spectacle. Because it was a wealthy suburb, 293 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 2: even though it was nineteen ninety nine, you had some 294 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 2: students with cell phones, so you had students hiding and 295 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 2: calling TV stations, calling news stations from inside the school. 296 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 2: And so that's something that we see a lot now 297 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 2: with these mass shootings, reports kind of from inside. But 298 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 2: this was I think one of the first times, if 299 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 2: not the first time, that had happened. 300 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: I remember it being startling to me because number one, 301 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: it was really well organized, right, This wasn't just somebody 302 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: pulling out a gun and sort of feeling like a 303 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: spur of the moment. This was really well planned out 304 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: and they had a manifesto, I think, and I see 305 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: why people were sort of drawn into the glamour. 306 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 3: Of that definitely. 307 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 2: And I think also we as the media, this was 308 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 2: a new phenomenon for us, and so I think we've 309 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 2: learned a lot of lessons and we cover these shootings 310 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 2: in a different way now, where often shooters' names aren't 311 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 2: mentioned or are mentioned weighed down sort of at the 312 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 2: end of a piece that's not highlighted, but at the 313 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 2: time was before we had learned those lessons, so there 314 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 2: really was a lot of vaculation afterwards. You know, who 315 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 2: were these boys, why did they do it? What were 316 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 2: they wearing, what were they listening to? And that's so understandable. 317 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 2: Everybody's looking for how did this happen? Why did this happen? 318 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 3: And I think that that was. 319 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 2: Partially a creation of the media sort of obsessing about 320 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 2: them and focusing on them. Because we did, they became 321 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 2: these kind of icons of rejection of the bullied student, 322 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 2: of the outcast. The parents of the students sued the 323 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 2: sheriff to get a bunch of files released, and in 324 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 2: that you have both of the boys' diaries became part 325 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 2: of the public record, and so it's not surprising at 326 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 2: all that you have a lot of teenagers online who 327 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 2: were finding these first person documents really fascinating and will 328 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 2: go through and the diaries and look at the photos. 329 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 2: The boys both very early in internet culture. They had websites, 330 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 2: they filmed themselves. There was both a lot of media 331 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 2: attention from the traditional media sources and then they themselves 332 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 2: had created a lot of media, so there was just 333 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 2: a lot of content there honestly for young people. 334 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: For ninety nine too, that's a lot. 335 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And so I think that's one reason it's 336 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 2: such a resonant event, and it had such a long aftermath. 337 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 2: And it's interesting to think in twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, 338 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, some of these kids who are going online 339 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 2: and posting about Columbine weren't alive when it happened. That's 340 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 2: something that I found a lot in the sort of 341 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 2: Columbine or subculture. For them, it almost seemed unreal, right, 342 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 2: it was like a movie or it's a fantasy. 343 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: How did Lindsey present herself in these Columbine forums? How 344 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: did she enter in? And what was she like online? 345 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 3: For them? A lot of her posts have been deleted since. 346 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: Even though there was an active court case. 347 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if she deleted them or she 348 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 2: had an auto delete, or it might have been just 349 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 2: the entire tumbler got deleted or taken offline. So you 350 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 2: can see some of her posts, what I can't see 351 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 2: the whole interplay of it within this Columbine tumblr subculture. 352 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 2: It splinters into different subcultures too, right, So some people 353 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,239 Speaker 2: are researchers and you can see these fourteen year old 354 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 2: budding forensic psychologists, and they want to understand the psychology 355 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 2: of it. Some of them sort of celebrate what happened 356 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 2: in a way that's really creepy, and Lindsay was more 357 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 2: on that end of the spectrum, fetishizing what happened, fetishizing guns, 358 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 2: fetishizing violence, making really dark jokes about what happened on 359 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 2: the more extreme side of that, and through her posts, 360 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 2: she ends up becoming friends with another young person in 361 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 2: the subculture, who's a young man named James Gamble, who 362 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 2: also has sort of a Columbine tumbler and is posting 363 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 2: a lot of the more violent, angry memes. And Lindsay 364 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,360 Speaker 2: she has graduated college. She's not really sure what she's 365 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 2: going to do with her life. She's applying to the 366 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 2: Peace Corps, but she doesn't really want to go, living 367 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 2: in her parents' house, being pretty antisocial, doesn't have a job. 368 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 2: James somewhat in a similar position. 369 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 3: He's younger. 370 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 2: She's I think twenty two at this point, and I 371 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 2: think he's nineteen. I think that he's living with his parents. 372 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 2: He's unemployed. He lives in Halifax, Nova Scotia. He has 373 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 2: a best friend named Randy goes to local metal shows 374 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,959 Speaker 2: and stuff. He's not a total shut in, but he 375 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 2: also has difficulty socializing and spends a lot of time 376 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 2: online and finds friends within these kind of communities of 377 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 2: outsiders online. 378 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: They connect and is this a love interest spark? 379 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 5: Yeah. 380 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 2: And it's interesting because their entire relationship, as far as 381 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 2: we know it took place entirely on Facebook Chat. They 382 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 2: never talked on the phone, they never facetimed, they never skyped. 383 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 3: As a journalist, I'll say it's pretty wild. 384 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 2: You can read the entirety and all of us was 385 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 2: entered into evidence, a thousand plus pages of the chats 386 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 2: between them, and you can see the entire course of 387 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:11,919 Speaker 2: their relationship, which is pretty fascinating material. Much of it 388 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 2: is pretty disturbing material too. It gets romantic pretty quickly. 389 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 2: They start chatting around just a couple days before Christmas, 390 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 2: and both are rumbling about their parents, grumbling about the holiday, 391 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 2: and are spending a lot of time talking to each 392 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 2: other very quickly, you know, hours a day. Pretty soon 393 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 2: they're talking about Columbine. He's like, I wish I could 394 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 2: do something like that someday. 395 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: We're talking with Rachel Monroe about the story of twenty 396 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: three year old Lindsay and her cyber crush James. James 397 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: has just told Lindsay that he liked to do a 398 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: mass shooting of his own, but is he serious and 399 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,360 Speaker 1: would Lindsay actually go along with it? 400 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 2: They start sort of talking about what if we did, 401 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 2: what if we could again. It's this interesting line of 402 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 2: are they trying to show off for each other? Are 403 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 2: they creating this mutual fantasy, how much of this is 404 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 2: fan fiction? 405 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 3: How much of it is an actual plan? 406 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 2: It does, over the days and weeks to come, start 407 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 2: to take on more reality, as, Okay, this is something 408 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 2: that we're planning to do, Where would we do it, 409 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 2: what weapons would we use? 410 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 3: Those logistics start creeping into it more. 411 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 2: Even as at the same time, kind of parallel to 412 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 2: this plotting and mass shooting conversation, they do seem to 413 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 2: be doing their own version of falling in love, talking 414 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 2: about their struggles with mental health, talking about their struggles 415 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 2: with their families, talking about feeling misunderstood, talking about their lives. 416 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 2: Reading these chats is a very strange experience because there 417 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 2: is this tenderness between them. They both say that they're 418 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 2: virgins and so I think this connection comes to be 419 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 2: really meaningful for them. Then at the same time, page 420 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 2: or two later in the chat, they're fantasizing about hurting strangers. 421 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: Why do you think they never even spoke on the phone, 422 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 1: let alone met I mean, does anybody bring it up 423 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 1: in their chats? 424 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,400 Speaker 3: Did they say, hey, they planned to meet? 425 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 2: These were two people who were much more comfortable online, 426 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:18,640 Speaker 2: who felt like themselves, who felt. 427 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 3: Much more fluid and confident. I mean, it's so. 428 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 2: Interesting with Lindsay, is her persona online? Is this badass, xy, scary, intimidating, 429 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 2: confident woman, And then when you talk to anybody who 430 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,199 Speaker 2: knew her in real life, she was so quiet, she 431 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 2: didn't say anything, faded into the background. 432 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: So it would be the end of a fantasy. 433 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 2: Essentially, they were interacting in this mode that was very comfortable. 434 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: For them, So they start seriously putting together a plan. 435 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: Where are we at this point? 436 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 2: Twenty fourteen is when they are. They first meet December 437 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, right before Christmas, and then from reading the chats, 438 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 2: it does seem like James is the one who's a 439 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 2: little bit more pushing this to become a reality. He 440 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 2: says that he's already asked his friend Randy. Randy like, 441 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 2: I can't do it, man. We could go to the mall, 442 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 2: we could go to the library, and Lindsay does not 443 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 2: talk him out of it. But Lindsay is much more 444 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 2: focused on what will I wear? Should I wear this jacket? 445 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 2: Or get what color lipstick? Very obsessed with the aesthetics 446 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 2: of it. She lives in Illinois. 447 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 3: It's not that easy to get a gun in Illinois. 448 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 2: But it's much easier to get a gun in the 449 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 2: United States than it is in Canada, where he lives. 450 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 2: If maximizing BodyCount was the most important thing to them, 451 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 2: they would have planned it differently. 452 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: But they're also young and doesn't seem like they're seeking 453 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: outside council at this point. Are they trying to get 454 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: advice from anybody on any of these forums? 455 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 3: No? 456 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 2: No, no, they're well. But it's interesting because they're not 457 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 2: cautious about what they post online. Do you really think 458 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,959 Speaker 2: this is really? Are you really planning this? Lindsay has 459 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 2: never shot a gun. She doesn't go to a firing range. 460 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure that she's never touched a gun in 461 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 3: her whole life. 462 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 2: She doesn't know how to use a gun. You know, 463 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 2: the Columbine Shooters. They went to firing ranges, they did 464 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 2: a lot of training. These kids are the most they 465 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 2: can do is watch a YouTube video. James has his 466 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 2: father's hunting rifle and a shot gun single action shotguns, 467 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 2: so would have to be reloaded after every time. He's 468 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 2: got I think thirteen bullets with bird shot, and he 469 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 2: sort of found these in his parents' house. But it's 470 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 2: not a great cash of ammunition, and neither of them 471 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 2: has any experience with firearms at all, but he keeps. 472 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 3: Sort of pushing it. She keeps saying, yeah, I'll be there. 473 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 1: Does he come up with a concrete plan? Is he 474 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: saying meet me x and we'll do Why. 475 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 2: They decide that they want to do this at the 476 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 2: mall on Valentine's Day, she doesn't buy a plane ticket. 477 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 3: How committed is she to the. 478 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,919 Speaker 2: Reality of it in Canada to fly from Illinois to Halifax? 479 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 3: Yeah? 480 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: Wow, okay. 481 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 2: When she doesn't buy the plane ticket, When it doesn't happen, 482 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 2: James gets really upset and chatting for hours every day. 483 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 3: She has kind of spun out into this fantasy world. 484 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 2: She thinks that she's the reincarnation of Eric Harris, who's 485 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 2: one of the Columbine Killers. That I mean, she's deep 486 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 2: in her fantasy world right now, very much. 487 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 3: Losing touch with reality. 488 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 2: Eventually, she scrapes together the money, she buys the plane 489 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 2: ticket she heads to Canada. 490 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 3: We're going to do this this weekend. 491 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 2: The plan is that James will shoot his parents while 492 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 2: Randy the Friend picks up Lindsay from the airport. James 493 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 2: and Lindsay will spend the night together. They will lose 494 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 2: their virginity to each other. The next afternoon, they'll go 495 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 2: to the mall on Valentine's Day and kill as many 496 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 2: people as they can. They spend just as much time 497 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 2: talking about can we upload pictures to Tumblr? Will everybody 498 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 2: on Tumblr see us? Can we do one last post 499 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 2: before we die? How can we let them know that 500 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 2: it was us? How can we film it? They're thinking 501 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 2: about this is like a content opportunity, almost more than 502 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 2: anything else, to become famous like Dylan and Eric the 503 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 2: Columbine Killers. But the plan almost immediately falls apart. 504 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: What happens she shows up in Halifax. 505 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,439 Speaker 2: Somebody tips off the police. They're definitely talking to some 506 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 2: of their friends about what they're planning. They're posting these 507 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 2: ominous very lightly veiled things to Tumblr February fourteenth, look Out. 508 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 2: Somebody calls in a tip to the Halifax crime Stoppers. 509 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 2: Crimes Stoppers come to James's house. Both of his parents 510 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 2: are out of the house at that time. They ask 511 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 2: him to come out and he shoots himself. 512 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: Whoa. 513 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 2: Meanwhile, Lindsay is at the airport she's landed. She gets 514 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 2: flagged by customs because she seems strange and is immediately 515 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 2: taken into custody. 516 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 3: So they never meet. 517 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 1: Well, go back, so they arrest her. Do we know 518 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: what the reaction is from anybody around, from her parents 519 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 1: or anything. Is this shock or not shocked? 520 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,679 Speaker 2: I think it's incredibly shocking for everybody, from her parents, 521 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 2: which is mostly she has an active imagination. She writes, 522 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 2: you know, she has this one persona online and in 523 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 2: her writing, but she never would have done anything. 524 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 3: This is not the Lindsay that we know. You know. 525 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 3: I spoke to people who knew her who were both shocked, 526 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 3: I think, and not shocked. 527 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 1: Not surprised. Well, it didn't sound like she hid her 528 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: anger at. 529 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 3: All, right, and so people had known her as this 530 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 3: troubled person. 531 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: I wonder if they thought it would be more like 532 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: self harm rather than plotting to hurt other people. 533 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 2: Right and on Tumblr, both she and James had sort 534 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 2: of had these fantasies of we're going to become celebrities. 535 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,439 Speaker 2: Everybody is going to want to know everything about us. 536 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 2: They're going to post pictures of us and talk about 537 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 2: how wonderful we are. But that doesn't happen at all. 538 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 2: A lot of people who are sort of in the 539 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 2: Columbine world who maybe knew them tangentially delete their blogs. 540 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,679 Speaker 2: Those who say anything are disgusted with this idea that 541 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 2: this would spill over into real violence. The celebrity and 542 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 2: the fame and the adulation that they had sort of 543 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 2: fantasized about getting. It's just really doesn't show up for them. 544 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: What is her reaction to being arrested and everything. How 545 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 1: does the rest of her life so far unfold? So 546 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: this happened in twenty fifteen. 547 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 2: For a long time, she's in a lot of shock 548 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 2: and sort of feels like, well, I didn't do anything right, 549 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 2: Like how much trouble can I be in? 550 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: I didn't do anything, You can be in a lot 551 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: of trouble. 552 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 2: One of the lessons here I've heard from somebody who's 553 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 2: in touch with her. She was incredibly heartbroken about James's death. 554 00:26:58,320 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 2: You know, they had never met, they had sort of 555 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 2: this connection online that she had printed out pictures of 556 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 2: him and had those in her cell in some way. Wow, 557 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 2: her broken, And I think it took a little while 558 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 2: for the reality of her situation to settle in that 559 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 2: she was charged with conspiracy to commit murder. 560 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 3: And it was a really. 561 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 2: Interesting case in Canada because Canada doesn't have as much 562 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 2: of a robust history of mass shootings. There's less mass 563 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 2: shooting case law. So what do you do with somebody 564 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 2: in a situation like this. The prosecutor is sort of 565 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 2: arguing this is like terrorism twenty five years plus. The 566 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 2: defense was saying, no, no, no, this was a thought crime. 567 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 2: This is somebody who planned for this event in only 568 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 2: the most frivolous way, thinking about her outfit, not really 569 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,360 Speaker 2: doing any actual weapons trading. 570 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: But flying to Halifax. 571 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 2: It's intent exactly, she's taking those steps. I went to 572 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 2: Halifax for her sentencing, and she's an incredibly small person. 573 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: She's in the room, she's tiny, she looks very very petite, 574 00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: not really much of a space for her to speak 575 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: in this court proceedings. 576 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 2: But doesn't have a very big, her intimidating presence. But 577 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 2: at the same time I was reading these chat logs 578 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 2: where she's saying these incredibly disturbing things. I really I 579 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 2: had no idea which way it was going to go, 580 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 2: but she ended up being sentenced to life in prison, wow, 581 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 2: with possibility of parole after ten years. 582 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 3: I was pretty shocked. I think that one of the. 583 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 2: Things that's disturbing for me, I guess is the person 584 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 2: that I know who's been in touch with her was 585 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 2: just saying how in prison it hasn't been terrible for 586 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 2: her because she just lives so much in her mind, 587 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 2: and so it's just she's just retreating even more into 588 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 2: this internal fantasy, private space, which seems like exactly what. 589 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 2: It's not good for her, right Like that seems really 590 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 2: really damaging and alarming. And she's writing a lot, and 591 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 2: she is. I talked to her creative writing teacher, and 592 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 2: she had reached out to him. She's, you know, working 593 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 2: on novels and was wondering if she could get the published. 594 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: She's on a podcast, I think, right, she's been on podcasts, 595 00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: hearing those podcasts. What's your sense from her? 596 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 2: I think at this point she is still, as far 597 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 2: as I can tell, and really committed to her ideology, 598 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 2: still seems to be very divorced from what actually happened, 599 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 2: and still seems to sort of be holding on to 600 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 2: this idea of herself as this powerful, confident being, almost 601 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 2: clinging to it in a way which is really maybe 602 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 2: psychologically necessary for her. But at the same time, the 603 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 2: only way that she's going to have any rehabilitation, which 604 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 2: is the only way she's ever going to get out, 605 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 2: is if she looks at the situation honestly, and she'll 606 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 2: have to be vulnerable in some way, But it seems 607 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 2: like she's doubling down. 608 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 3: I'm not being like that. 609 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: How does this story, which is titled The Killer in 610 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: your book, how does this fit? How does this piece 611 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: fit into the puzzle that you're trying to lay out 612 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: here about women and true crime as an audience, as victims, 613 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: as killers, as defenders. Where does Lindsey's story fit in? 614 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 2: In some ways for me, Lindsay is the cautionary tale. 615 00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 2: I wanted to make sure in the book to not 616 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 2: pathology this fascination with true crime. There are ways that 617 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 2: people channel this fascination in very pro social ways, but 618 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 2: at the same time, I wanted to make sure to 619 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 2: not shy away from the more upsetting and troubling things 620 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 2: that can happen when as a society or we as 621 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 2: individuals fixate on obsess about these crimes, and particularly fixate 622 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 2: on obsess on the murderer, the serial killer, the criminal figure, 623 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 2: and make them, even if they're the anti hero, make 624 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 2: them a central figure, give them that celebrity, give them 625 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 2: that central place in the story. That's not at all 626 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 2: just something that the columnbiners are doing. In some ways, 627 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 2: I think what the columnbiners are doing is sort of 628 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,719 Speaker 2: showing the rest of us what so much of our 629 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 2: culture is doing. And that's why there's so much horror 630 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 2: at what they're doing. If you turn on a lot 631 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 2: of these true crime programs, they're doing something not that 632 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 2: dissimilar in wanting to know everything about the killer, his mind, right, 633 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 2: his childhood, like a celebrity. 634 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: In a way, what I have always struggled with is 635 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: almost everything I do is men killing women. And my 636 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: challenge in all of my books in the podcasts have 637 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: been to show the victims to be as strong characters 638 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: as the killer. Otherwise they're just props. And that's how 639 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: a lot of times female victims are presented as just 640 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: sort of bodies. It's always been a struggle for me, 641 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: but I worked really hard to try to do that, 642 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: and you know, that involves getting to know the victims. 643 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 2: That's something that I struggle with a lot too personally. 644 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 2: Is I understand and I really appreciate the focus on 645 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 2: the shift that's happening where people are really trying to 646 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 2: focus more on the victims and tell their stories and 647 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 2: give them sort of a more of a complete humanity. 648 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 2: But at the same time, I think that can turn 649 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 2: into almost like celebrity victims or Sharon Tate, their death, 650 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 2: their murder becoming the central fact of their life, the 651 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 2: reason we want to know about them, and almost I've 652 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 2: become really troubled by that too, And maybe that's why 653 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 2: I like to do the pivot to context or you 654 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,479 Speaker 2: know something bigger is these stories are so rarely just 655 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 2: about two people, right the murderer and the victim. 656 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: They're not compartmentalized. It shines a light on parts of 657 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: society that are dark oftentimes, or on a time period. 658 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: True crime to me is very much like sports. You 659 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: could do a sports story. There's a beginning, a middle, 660 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: and end. Someone changes from the beginning to the end. 661 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: If there's a conviction, it is a excellent way to 662 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: structure a narrative using sports or using true crime. But 663 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: with true crime, My goodness, what you say, what you write, 664 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 1: what we put in this podcast affects. 665 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 3: People, Yes, very much so. 666 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 2: And the other thing that I wanted to get into 667 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 2: in that killer section is not just sort of thinking 668 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 2: about how we as the media contributed to the Columbine 669 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 2: Killers taking on this outsize role, also how a story 670 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 2: like Columbine affects how policing and schools happen. Sometimes true 671 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 2: crime is treated as a frivolous or trashy. 672 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 1: True crime doesn't always have the best reputation when it 673 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: comes to respecting the victims, when it comes to exploiting 674 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 1: the victims and really putting an emphasis on glamorizing the killers. 675 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: That's a problem. 676 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 2: No, these stories, the ones that kind of hook into 677 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 2: our imagination, become political footballs in a way and have 678 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 2: a real impact on policies and change the way that 679 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 2: we negotiate our reality and who we think is scary 680 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 2: and the laws about who gets locked up for what 681 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 2: for how long. So we have to really take them seriously. 682 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 2: And if we're just sort of narrowing in and looking 683 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 2: zooming in way too close on the killer and the victim, 684 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:39,479 Speaker 2: then there's a lot that we're missing. 685 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: And what I think is interesting is that oftentimes we 686 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: are looking towards somebody like Lindsay who may not be 687 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: taken seriously as a killer. We're thinking, oh, it's more James, 688 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: which sounds like could be the case here. But I've 689 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: talked to a lot of psychologists who say we don't 690 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: take female killers in this country seriously. Women are just 691 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: as case of killing as men are. So I think 692 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: it's interesting to see kind of the inside of somebody. 693 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,720 Speaker 1: It just seems like a deteriorating mind. Yes, but someone 694 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: with so much creativity. You said at the beginning, she 695 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: could have gone multiple different ways if one little thing 696 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 1: had changed. 697 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:17,919 Speaker 3: Yeah. 698 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 2: I think that's really really true. And that's why this 699 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 2: story sort of makes me so sad. Is that kind 700 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 2: of obsessive brain of hers, what it fixated on, turned 701 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 2: out to be really harmful for her, really harmful. It 702 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 2: could have been really harmful for a lot of other people. 703 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,760 Speaker 2: Talking to people in Halifax, even though this mass shooting 704 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 2: didn't happen. A lot of people there are still haunted 705 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 2: by it. There doesn't have to be a murder necessarily 706 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 2: for their acts to have caused harm. 707 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 1: Did this affect you? I can't imagine that it wouldn't 708 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: having to read all of this crap that you had 709 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: to dig through, not just her chats, but just all 710 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 1: of the forums. How did this affect you? 711 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 2: There's something about reading the chats that the intimacy. I 712 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 2: guess with these minds, they didn't sort of feel like 713 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 2: they were being observed, so it seemed like getting them 714 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 2: in a pretty raw state over a thousand pages of 715 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 2: this back and forth, the hateful ideology. And I think 716 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 2: my default stance towards other people is curiosity and warmth positivity. 717 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:21,800 Speaker 1: It sounds like, right, positivity. 718 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's how I moved through the world. 719 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: You just thinking the best of people. 720 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 2: I'm mostly positively oriented towards people. And there was something 721 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 2: about the work that you have to do to write 722 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 2: about this stuff to really kind of steep into this mindset. 723 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 2: I could just feel it in my brain and I 724 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 2: could feel it changing how I interacted with strangers In 725 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 2: a funny way, this level of suspicion. 726 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: Because you never know who's reading this stuff, and you 727 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:45,840 Speaker 1: never know what people are thinking. 728 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 3: You never know who's reading this stuff, You don't know 729 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 3: what's in people's heads. 730 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 2: There was a very scary moment for me when I 731 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 2: was reading the chat logs and they were talking about like, 732 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 2: where are we going to commit this mass shooting? And 733 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 2: I was in this beautiful new public library in Halifax, 734 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,320 Speaker 2: and then they started talking in the chats about maybe 735 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:01,839 Speaker 2: we should go. 736 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 3: To the live the new, fancy new library and shoot 737 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 3: people there. 738 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 2: Was reading them describing this library that I was in 739 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 2: and imagining shooting people there, and it's giving me chills 740 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 2: just thinking about it, because it's this lovely space, children's choir. 741 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 2: I was drinking a coffee at the cafe. It's such 742 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 2: a nice space, and that somebody would want to go 743 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 2: in there and really harm it irreparably. That mindset was 744 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 2: really scary. And then I started to feel how it's 745 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 2: almost self perpetuating in a way. If you start to 746 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 2: be really scared and closed off and paranoid and I 747 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 2: don't know what other people are thinking, and I don't 748 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:38,920 Speaker 2: know the darkness that's in their hearts. I started to 749 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 2: feel my own self isolation and slipping into that. 750 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I see how this. 751 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 2: Could be really like, I could get sucked into this. 752 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 2: Not in a way that I'm going to commit a 753 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 2: mass shooting, but I don't want to ever relate to 754 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 2: the world in that way. 755 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: What is the cautionary tale with Lindsay specifically? Do you 756 00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 1: think what do we learn from the story? 757 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 2: I think, for me, something that I personally learned, and 758 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 2: I think we as a society have been learning this 759 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,399 Speaker 2: more over the past t handful of years, is that 760 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 2: it's dangerous to treat what happens online as if it's 761 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 2: not real, as if it's a fantasy. I mean, she 762 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,879 Speaker 2: was participating in this world that we see a lot now, 763 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 2: this kind of ironic fascism, this kind of ironic hate 764 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 2: that I think is a mode that is prevalent in 765 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 2: certain parts of the right wing. Now, that is the 766 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 2: level of plausible deniability there, right, because you're like, I'm 767 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:33,280 Speaker 2: just joking. 768 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,360 Speaker 3: Why are you taking it so seriously. 769 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 2: I'm being shocking for shockings sake, being provocative, And if 770 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 2: you take it too seriously, then you're not in on 771 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 2: the joke, and this stuff is real or and it 772 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 2: spills over into the non online world. And if you're 773 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 2: spending all your time doing hateful online racism as a joke, 774 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,800 Speaker 2: that spills into your life, that spills into your reality, 775 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 2: it's not a separate realm. If you spend your time 776 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 2: reblogging Columbine means because you're a teenager and you want 777 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 2: to be provocative, that's not the same thing as shooting somebody. 778 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,720 Speaker 2: But like you know, just be careful where you're spending 779 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 2: your time and be concerned about what people are doing online, 780 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 2: even if they are sort of treating it as if 781 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,280 Speaker 2: it's a joke or not substantial. 782 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 1: Because it could be a slippery slope. 783 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 3: Because I think it is a slippery slope. 784 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words, when those three 785 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,840 Speaker 1: civil rights workers disappeared and the FBI commenced this. 786 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 5: Search throughout the state, they were dragging all these rivers 787 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 5: in Mississippi to look for them. Before they found the 788 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 5: bodies of the three civil rights workers, they found the 789 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,359 Speaker 5: bodies of like eight other black men who have been brutalized. 790 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:47,400 Speaker 5: So Mississippi was literally a graveyard of civil rights workers. 791 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my 792 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death in the Air. This has 793 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,840 Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold more Media Production. Alexis Andmrosi 794 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: is our producer, Andrew Eapan is our sound designer. Ella 795 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: Middleton is a researcher for us. Curtis Heath does the composition, 796 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 1: Nick Toga did the artwork, and Ilsa Brink designed the website. 797 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: The executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. 798 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,439 Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more 799 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,239 Speaker 1: Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. If you are 800 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: an advertiser interested in advertising on our show, go to 801 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 1: midroll dot com slash ads, and if you know of 802 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 1: a historical true crime story that could use some attention 803 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at 804 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 1: info at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com. Listen, subscribe and leave us 805 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,319 Speaker 1: a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get 806 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: your podcasts.