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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abuse the

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Speaker 2: power that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me.

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Speaker 2: Trust me.

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Speaker 1: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 4: I've never lied to you.

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Speaker 2: I never If you think that one person has all

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Speaker 2: the answers, don't.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to trust Me.

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Speaker 2: The podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two

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Speaker 2: podcast lovers who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 3: I am Lola Blanc.

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Speaker 1: And I'm Megan Elizabeth And today.

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Speaker 2: Our guest is Robbia Chawdry, lawyer, advocate, podcaster, writer and

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Speaker 2: the reason you have heard of Odd non Sayed from Cereal. Today,

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about her experience advocating for him,

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Speaker 2: what it was like entering the true crime world Wyatton

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Speaker 2: is free now, and what disappointed her about her experience

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Speaker 2: with the coverage of his story.

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Speaker 1: We'll also discuss extreme groups, her work in CVE or

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Speaker 1: countering violent extremism, how any religion and any group is

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Speaker 1: capable of becoming fundamentalist or extreme. Why extremism is not

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Speaker 1: a strictly Muslim problem, and the power of story to

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Speaker 1: change people's minds.

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Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am.

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Speaker 2: Before we get into it with Robbia Megan, what's your

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Speaker 2: cult de thing of this week?

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Speaker 1: I mean, of course, this week in the past year

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Speaker 1: has been a complete dumpster fire in the world. But

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Speaker 1: I am excited about one thing, and that is tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: Netflix is releasing a documentary called Dancing with the Devil,

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Speaker 1: which is about that seven M films dance cult that

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Speaker 1: has kind of been skating on the precipice of everybody's

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Speaker 1: mind since Rolling Stone did an article about it. And

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Speaker 1: people are claiming that their loved ones are being forced

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Speaker 1: to give away all of their money into arranged marriages

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Speaker 1: and it's all under the scheme of this like TikTok

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Speaker 1: dance studio. That also where your manager is your like pasture,

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Speaker 1: which seems crazy.

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Speaker 3: Your pastor, Your manager is your pastor.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he's their manager and their pastor.

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Speaker 3: Right. I know a girl who was in this group.

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Speaker 4: Does she want to talk to us?

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Speaker 3: I will find out.

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Speaker 2: She seems like she's having a really hard time in

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Speaker 2: this moment based on some of her posts, But I

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Speaker 2: am very curious to see what the fuck happened. I

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Speaker 2: don't really know that much about this. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: think I read that article, but I don't totally understand

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Speaker 2: what happened. So I guess I'm about to find out

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Speaker 2: and learn more.

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Speaker 1: What about you? What's the cultiest thing that happened to

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Speaker 1: you this week?

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Speaker 3: Okay, I have a monologue. Ooh, it's not a fun monologue. Oh,

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Speaker 3: I thought.

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Speaker 1: You were trying out your comedic monologue for Trust me.

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Speaker 3: It is not of an actor's monologue, y'all. It is

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Speaker 3: a Goaza monologue.

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Speaker 4: Listen.

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Speaker 2: If that's not what you're here for, you can skip ahead,

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Speaker 2: But I hope that you listen.

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Speaker 3: Because I have.

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Speaker 2: To get this off of my chest. I think it's

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Speaker 2: important just to give people an update. If they haven't

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Speaker 2: been following the news, or they don't follow the same

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Speaker 2: accounts I follow, maybe aren't seeing the same stuff I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: This week, forty eight hours after the International Court of

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Speaker 2: Justice ordered Israel to stop the violence in Rafa, which

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Speaker 2: is the tiny part of Gaza where everyone in the

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Speaker 2: north of Godza had been told to evacuate to and

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Speaker 2: then we're told to leave again despite having nowhere to go.

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Speaker 2: The Israeli military, the IDEF bombed Rafa sixty times. They

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Speaker 2: bombed a refugee tent camp that was designated as a

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Speaker 2: safe zone. At least forty five people were killed, mostly

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Speaker 2: women and children. People were burned alive, children were burned alive.

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Speaker 2: At least one child was found charred with no head.

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Speaker 3: You can see video of all of this.

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Speaker 2: It's the worst thing I've ever seen, on top of

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Speaker 2: all of the other worst videos I've ever seen coming

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Speaker 2: out of Gaza.

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Speaker 3: And then, while the.

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Speaker 2: World is still reeling from this atrocity, twenty one more

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Speaker 2: people were killed in another attack on a tent city

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Speaker 2: in southern Rafa just last night. And then meanwhile, after

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Speaker 2: all of the doubt that was cast and whether Israel

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Speaker 2: would bomb a hospital for so many months, people were

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Speaker 2: telling me I would never bomb a hospital. Well, thirty

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Speaker 2: two of the thirty six hospitals and Gaza have been bombed, rated,

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Speaker 2: or damaged, with the IDF committing literally hundreds attacks on

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Speaker 2: hospitals over the past seven months and refusing to allow

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Speaker 2: and urgently needed medical supplies. So when there is a

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Speaker 2: medical catastrophe like this, there is no way to fucking

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Speaker 2: treat the people who do live. And I understand that

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of fear right now around conversations about

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Speaker 2: this conflict or genocide or whatever you want to call

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Speaker 2: it in the language around it. And I want to

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Speaker 2: be super clear all hostages should be returned home safely.

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Speaker 2: Speaking out against the government and military of Israel should

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Speaker 2: never devolve into hate or antisemitism or blaming people for

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Speaker 2: the government's actions. And I personally, and I know I

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Speaker 2: speak for Megan as well when I say every person

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Speaker 2: in Israel and every Jewish person in the diaspora, we

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Speaker 2: want them to be safe, just as much as I

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Speaker 2: want every person in Palestine to be safe. And by

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Speaker 2: the way, making lists of individual people you consider to

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Speaker 2: have the wrong beliefs is culty as fuck and you

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Speaker 2: definitely should not do that.

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Speaker 3: Get that out of the way.

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Speaker 2: That's all very important, But at this point, thousands of

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Speaker 2: Palestinian children have been killed, thousands more have been dismembered, disabled,

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Speaker 2: or rendered orphans. Doctors, aid workers who were directly communicating

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Speaker 2: their location with the IDF, not just that one time,

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Speaker 2: multiple other times, poets, academics, artists, fathers, mothers, all dead,

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Speaker 2: and if not dead, they are displaced and closer to

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Speaker 2: death than most of us could ever fucking imagine. And

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Speaker 2: I cannot accept that they are just an afterthought. A yes,

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Speaker 2: war is terrible, but followed by justification, a blame shift,

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Speaker 2: or a thought terminating talking point. The horror that is

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Speaker 2: happening still now every day is absolutely unthinkable. Every single

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Speaker 2: human rights organization is in the region has said so,

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Speaker 2: continues to say so. It's extremely well documented. And despite

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Speaker 2: one single bomb shipment that Biden paused the US, our

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Speaker 2: country continues to send Israel weapons and money. We provide

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Speaker 2: two thirds of the weapons used in this war, and

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Speaker 2: the majority of our congress people who we elected are

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Speaker 2: cool with that. So we should all be fucking talking

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Speaker 2: about it.

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Speaker 3: And there was a big stir the other week because there.

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Speaker 2: Were miss leading headlines saying that the UAN updated its

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Speaker 2: number of dead women and children, and actually it's half

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Speaker 2: now of what they were saying before. But the reality

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Speaker 2: of that misleading headline is that the total number of

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Speaker 2: dead people is exactly the same, and the remaining ten

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Speaker 2: thousand dead people have simply not been identified by the

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Speaker 2: usual means of identification, one of which used to be hospitals, which,

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Speaker 2: as I said, are mostly destroyed. That number is going

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Speaker 2: to grow, but let's say it doesn't. Let's say it

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Speaker 2: just stays seven thousand women and children. Are we comfortable

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Speaker 2: with our taxes pay for the deaths of seven thousand

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Speaker 2: women and children? And the part that makes me feel

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Speaker 2: the most insane is that we are still arguing about semantics,

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Speaker 2: about language, about whether people are speaking about it the

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Speaker 2: right way, about whether the details and language matters.

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Speaker 3: Of course it does.

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Speaker 2: I will be the first person to say that, But

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Speaker 2: the actual killing of innocent people has to matter more.

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Speaker 2: Language can be dangerous because it can lead to dehumanization

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Speaker 2: and to eventual violence. But violence is actual violence. Children

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Speaker 2: are dying right now actively, So where has our moral

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Speaker 2: compass gone when that is an considered the most urgent thing,

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Speaker 2: when those children are relegated to a Yeah, But like,

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Speaker 2: what kind of dehumanization have we been sold? What kind

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Speaker 2: of indoctrination? And how do we overcome it? These are

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Speaker 2: the questions that we need to be asking ourselves. And

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Speaker 2: I know it's uncomfortable, and I know we're all exhausted

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Speaker 2: from the war, and we're exhausted from these images, and

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Speaker 2: I know we're scared because we don't want Jewish people

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Speaker 2: to be harmed either. Of course, I felt like I

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Speaker 2: had to say it because it is so fucking bad

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Speaker 2: this week.

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Speaker 3: These videos are so horrific.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know, I just couldn't let another episode

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Speaker 2: go by without talking about it.

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Speaker 3: So that's why monologue.

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Speaker 2: If this issue is important to you, please call or

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Speaker 2: write to your representatives and tell them that you support

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Speaker 2: a permanent ceasefire and that you expect them to as

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Speaker 2: well since you are one of their constituents. Please keep

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Speaker 2: speaking out, but make sure you vet all of your

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Speaker 2: information first so that you're not spreading disinformation. And please

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Speaker 2: donate to all the aid organizations in the area that

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Speaker 2: are still able to function, which is constantly in flux.

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Speaker 2: With that said, monologue over, should we talk to Robbia Now,

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Speaker 2: let's do it.

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Speaker 3: Welcome Rabia Chadri to trust me. Thank you so much

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Speaker 3: for being with us.

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Speaker 5: N It's my pleasure. Nice to meet you. Meganalola, you too.

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Speaker 2: I've followed you on Twitter for a long time. I

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Speaker 2: am a big fan of your work. You are known

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Speaker 2: for a number of things you've done, perhaps one of

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Speaker 2: the most notable things would be being an advocate for

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Speaker 2: on non Said, whose name people might recognize from the

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Speaker 2: podcast serial and all the subsequent media that came out

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Speaker 2: about that case. Can you just give us a brief

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Speaker 2: overview of your role in that case?

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Speaker 5: Oh, gosh, brief overview? Media brief? Well, I knew it, nonsense.

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Speaker 5: He was like a kid since he was twelve thirteen

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Speaker 5: years old. He was my little brother's best friend. And

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Speaker 5: when he was arrested at seventeen for a crime that

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Speaker 5: he maintained his innocence for. I was in law school

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Speaker 5: at the time, and so you know, I was soil

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Speaker 5: a student and I sat through the trial. I watched

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Speaker 5: what happened to him. It was egregious, and then I

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Speaker 5: helped the family navigate the appeals, and then, like you

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Speaker 5: know what, fifteen years in, it was just I lost

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Speaker 5: faith in the appellate system. So I contacted a I

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Speaker 5: thought we need to get some media involved, a journalist involved.

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Speaker 5: I contacted Sarah Kanig. That turned into Cereal, which was

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Speaker 5: phenomenon in podcasting and probably the reason we are all

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Speaker 5: podcasting today. And then I continue my advocacy by writing

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Speaker 5: a book. We made a HBO series about the case

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Speaker 5: called The Case Against at Nanseid and after many many years,

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Speaker 5: a Don was finally released and charges were dropped against

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Speaker 5: him in twenty and twenty two September of twenty twenty two. However,

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Speaker 5: since that time, he has not, unfortunately been free and

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Speaker 5: clear completely because the victim's family lodged an appeal, and

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Speaker 5: it's a procedural appeal, meaning they didn't like the way

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Speaker 5: the hearing took place in which his conviction was overturned,

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Speaker 5: and so we're waiting for the Maryland Supreme Court to

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Speaker 5: make a decision on that. But anyhow, since September twenty

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Speaker 5: twenty two, An has been out and about and living

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Speaker 5: his life and working and taking care of his family,

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Speaker 5: and it's been incredible to see him, you know, not

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Speaker 5: behind bars, out in the world.

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Speaker 2: I was just reading in overview of why he was released,

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Speaker 2: and I'm sure people will be curious because I had

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Speaker 2: not sort of checked in on what was going on.

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Speaker 5: Well, look on the surface of it, like at the hearing,

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Speaker 5: the issue that was litigated was whether or not there's

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Speaker 5: a Brady violation in this case, and a Brady violation

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Speaker 5: is when during the course of a trial the prosecution,

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Speaker 5: which is supposed to turn over anything to the defense

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Speaker 5: that might be helpful or exculpatory, meaning could help prove

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Speaker 5: the defendant's innocence, fails to do so. And in this case,

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Speaker 5: there were a couple of different things that the prosecution

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Speaker 5: basically hid from the defense. And when if a court

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Speaker 5: finds a Brady violation has taken place, and this happens

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Speaker 5: always the appellate process, years later, they'll overturn the conviction

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Speaker 5: and grant the defendant new trial. That's what happened in

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Speaker 5: this case, and that's what happened to the hearing, and

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Speaker 5: that's the surface of it. But the truth is the reason.

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Speaker 5: Now what's extraordinary about this case is that it wasn't

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Speaker 5: the defense that was going to the judge and saying,

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Speaker 5: we wouldn't need you to reverse this conviction. The state

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Speaker 5: themselves did it, the prosecution themselves, because for the prior year,

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Speaker 5: they had spent a year reinvestigating the case. Inside what

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Speaker 5: they have is called the conviction Integrity Unit. Not every

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Speaker 5: state's attorney office has it, but these are units that

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Speaker 5: have been created in some prosecution's office and which they're like,

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Speaker 5: maybe this person's actually innocent, we got it wrong, so

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Speaker 5: they'll and in the Baltimore State's Attorney's office, they did

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Speaker 5: have this unit and they started looking at a Don's

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Speaker 5: case and they're like, we think this might be an

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Speaker 5: actual innocence case. And that's why the conviction was overturned

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Speaker 5: on that technicality of the Brady violation, which is that

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Speaker 5: the state found that the prosecution themselves found the Brady

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Speaker 5: violation by doing a review of their files, like, oh,

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Speaker 5: we found this evidence that was never turned over the defense.

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Speaker 5: They asked the judge to drop the conviction. But then

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Speaker 5: weeks later, the same state's attorney said, we don't even

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Speaker 5: want to give him a new trial. We want to

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Speaker 5: drop charges because we believe he's actually innocent because they

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Speaker 5: did all this DNA testing and on new evidence that

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Speaker 5: had been tested before and at Don's DNA was nowhere

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Speaker 5: to be found, but there was DNA from we don't

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Speaker 5: know who, unknown people on the victim's shoes that was identified.

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Speaker 5: So you know, that's like the backstory. So there was

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Speaker 5: the DNA plus the fact that there was this basically

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Speaker 5: you know when there's a RADI violation in sound and

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Speaker 5: people say, oh, that's a technicality, No, that is the

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Speaker 5: loss of defense of a defendant's constitutional right to be

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Speaker 5: able to defend himself. It's that serious, and that's why judges,

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Speaker 5: we'll overturn a conviction.

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Speaker 2: And that's what happened, right, And there were plausible alternative

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Speaker 2: suspects that were not investigated properly at the time, right.

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Speaker 5: Oh, one hundred percent. I mean that was part of

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Speaker 5: the Brady violation that the prosecution at the time at

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Speaker 5: the trial, the prosecutor had been told by one witness

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Speaker 5: or maybe more than one witness about threats that the

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Speaker 5: victim had received by somebody else. And and that's exculpatory information.

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Speaker 5: That's a pausible alternative suspect. And you know that's a suspect.

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Speaker 5: By the way, who I know the suspect is. There's

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Speaker 5: actually two alternative suspects in this case, very strong ones.

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Speaker 5: Neither one of them were ever fringer printed. For this case,

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Speaker 5: no hair sample was taken and no DNA samples have

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Speaker 5: ever been taken from them. So the fact that that

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Speaker 5: has yet not happened to compare because on the victim's

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Speaker 5: body they found hair that didn't match it, non they

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Speaker 5: found there's all this forensic evidence that matches nobody because

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Speaker 5: they won't do their job and try to maage it people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so, first of all, what was it like being

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Speaker 2: part of this like enormous true crime phenomenon.

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Speaker 5: I mean, look, it was not something we anticipated. When

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Speaker 5: I contacted Sarah Kanig, you know, she was a producer

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Speaker 5: at This American Life, and I thought, well, she might

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Speaker 5: make a one episode This American Life, you know, episode,

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Speaker 5: a one hour episode, which honestly didn't care about. What

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Speaker 5: I wanted from Sarah was for her to be able

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Speaker 5: to go out and see if she could actually find

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Speaker 5: new evidence to get us a new appeal, because we

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Speaker 5: were nearing the end of this very long appellate process

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Speaker 5: and it looked like we were going to lose, in

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Speaker 5: which case you can't get another appeal and unless you

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Speaker 5: find new evidence. So I was more interested in Sarah

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Speaker 5: like finding the smoking gun, getting a new witness to

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Speaker 5: talk to her. And then I had no idea what

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Speaker 5: a podcast was. And then she told me, she told me,

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Speaker 5: like about ten months before Cereal drop, that we're going

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Speaker 5: to do a podcast which is going to be in

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Speaker 5: all these you know, different episodes, And I'm like, okay,

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Speaker 5: I don't know what that means. And then the first

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Speaker 5: one or two weeks they dropped two episode. The very

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Speaker 5: first day, I will not forget. I was like a

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Speaker 5: chicken with my head cut off because I was like,

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Speaker 5: what is happening? It just blew up. But everybody I

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Speaker 5: knew it was like, Rabbie, is that you on that show?

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Speaker 5: Like it was just everywhere, it was on Saturda Night Live.

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Speaker 5: It was this pop culture phenomena and it was exhausting,

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Speaker 5: and it was not a fun experience for me or

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Speaker 5: for the family because what Cereal did, even though they

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Speaker 5: brought incredible awareness and we always appreciate that, but was

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Speaker 5: they maintained week after week this did you or didn'ey?

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Speaker 5: Did it or didn'ty? And I'm like, we didn't sign

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Speaker 5: up for this. And Sarah had privately told us I

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Speaker 5: believe he's innocent, but she never publicly said it. I

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Speaker 5: kept thinking in the finale, she'll say it, you know,

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Speaker 5: because people wanted to look to Sarah and be like,

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Speaker 5: you're the one who knows who's met this guy, and

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Speaker 5: talk to him, what do you think? And she never

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Speaker 5: did that, and I think she that was for the

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Speaker 5: sake of the popularity of the show. Maintaining the ratings

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Speaker 5: and the and that was free. Yeah, and it wasn't

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Speaker 5: fun for us. And then on an investigative front, frankly,

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Speaker 5: they weren't lawyers the team that put this together, they

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Speaker 5: were not criminal investigators, and they got a lot of

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Speaker 5: stuff just wrong, which is what made me then launch

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Speaker 5: my own podcasts Undisclosed, to set the record straight.

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Speaker 2: Did you notice that there were people who were sort

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Speaker 2: of doing armchair detective work and kind of making decisions

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Speaker 2: about what had happened based on things that were not

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Speaker 2: real or factual to the case.

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Speaker 5: Oh, one thousand percent. I mean there was so much

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Speaker 5: online harassment as well, and it was just kind of

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Speaker 5: stomach turning because it's like it's like playing whack a mole.

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Speaker 5: I mean, the people were like, oh, if Ann didn't

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Speaker 5: kill her, the mother, Adnan's mother must have killed her.

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Speaker 5: Robbie has a little brother, Robbie's little brother sad must

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Speaker 5: have killed her, which is why Robbia has advocated for

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Speaker 5: him so long. Rabbia and a non must be in

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Speaker 5: a relationship. Robbia must have killed her. I mean it

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Speaker 5: was just, you know, people behind this veil of anonymity

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Speaker 5: can just be awful, and and so his brought his

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Speaker 5: younger brother. We were on like Reddit, we were on

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Speaker 5: different things because we we wanted to be like responsive

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Speaker 5: to people. We were excited that people were interested in

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Speaker 5: the case, and they were just so awful to us

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Speaker 5: that we eventually left that space. But at the same time,

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Speaker 5: you had, I mean, hundreds of thousands of people who

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Speaker 5: were supportive, who donated, who made free at non merge.

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Speaker 5: I mean, and you you have to take the good

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Speaker 5: with the bad, right, This is how it is. You

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Speaker 5: just have to learn to manage block and move on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: We've talked a good amount on here about how some

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Speaker 2: of those internet spaces can become culty within themselves. People

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Speaker 2: can kind of become obsessed with this thing that they've

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Speaker 2: decided and the confirmation biased.

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Speaker 1: Who is the guy that many thought killed the girl

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Speaker 1: at the hotel downtown?

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Speaker 3: You do you remember his name? It was the metal guy.

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Speaker 5: The Morbid Morbid.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we had Morbid on our podcast too. Was you know,

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Speaker 2: obviously harassed by our guy?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? Yeah, it was a right real case.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, tell us a little bit about where you ended

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Speaker 2: up going professionally after all of this. You've done legal work,

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Speaker 2: advocacy work. Can you give us the lay of the land.

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Speaker 5: Well, you know, at the time when Cereal came out,

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Speaker 5: I had practiced immigration and civil rights law for about

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Speaker 5: fifteen fourteen, fifteen years. But when Cereal came out, I

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Speaker 5: was actually at the Institute of US Institute Keys and

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Speaker 5: that's I literally like wrote to Sarah from that email dress,

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Speaker 5: so she knew I was like legit, and so I

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Speaker 5: was doing national scurity policy work. But you know, after

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Speaker 5: Cereal ended and frankly this new presidential administration began he

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Speaker 5: who shall not be named, I decided I was not

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Speaker 5: going to do any more work with the government anymore.

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Speaker 5: And also Ann was still in prison, so I was like,

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Speaker 5: I can't, I can't let this die. And then what

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Speaker 5: happened was, as I was producing Undisclosed with two other lawyers,

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Speaker 5: we started getting requests from all these other defendants from

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Speaker 5: around the country, from their families, from lawyers from innocence

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Speaker 5: projects who were like, would you take this case from

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Speaker 5: us because you're doing an amazing job on this.

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Speaker 3: Can you can you tell us about Undisclosed the people know?

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Speaker 5: Yeah. So Undisclosed was a podcast that I launched with

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Speaker 5: two other lawyers, Susan Simpson and Colin Miller. About six

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Speaker 5: or seven months after Cereal ended, because we the three

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Speaker 5: of us, were blogging in response to Cereal and we're

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Speaker 5: writing like forty page blogs about cell tower evidence and

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Speaker 5: nobody's reading those blogs obviously, but they got so much

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Speaker 5: stuff wrong and we were like, that's not what they're reporting.

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Speaker 5: Is cool sounding and fun sounding and Diddy or didn't he,

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Speaker 5: but it's not the actual facts. So we were like,

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Speaker 5: we're just going to do We were we were encouraged

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Speaker 5: to make a podcast, which we didn't know how to

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Speaker 5: make a podcast. It was terrible, so we called it

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Speaker 5: out closed and by the third or fourth episode we

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Speaker 5: got a professional producer, it got much better, and so

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Speaker 5: we ended up making like twenty odd episodes but a

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Speaker 5: non's case. And then at I think a few episodes in,

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Speaker 5: we got the offer like from sponsors would do and

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Speaker 5: we were like, well, we're just doing this as out

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Speaker 5: of the goodness of our hearts. We are not making

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Speaker 5: any money. So we said, okay, we'll take the money

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Speaker 5: and put it in a legal fund for him, and

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Speaker 5: we raised like seven hundred thousand dollars for him from

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Speaker 5: that one Wow. Yeah, and it wasn't We weren't going

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Speaker 5: to call it a season because we were just going

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Speaker 5: to do this and be done. But then we got

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Speaker 5: more requests and innocence projects and defendants, and we're like, well,

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Speaker 5: why don't we do this case? And all three of

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Speaker 5: us had full time other jobs doing this, and I

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Speaker 5: was writing my book at the time for about a

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Speaker 5: non and so. But at some point, you know, at

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Speaker 5: one point they were it was like, I can't do

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Speaker 5: all these jobs, Like, you know, I have to decide

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Speaker 5: is this what I'm going to do? And Susan, Colin

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Speaker 5: and I decided that Undisclosed is going to be kind

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Speaker 5: of our all the column continue to He's a a

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Speaker 5: law school dean and professor continued in that role, but

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Speaker 5: Susan and I focused completely on the innocence work and

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Speaker 5: shifted our focus to just doing Undisclosed. And basically, you know,

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Speaker 5: for us, true crime became a vehicle to teach people

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Speaker 5: about criminal justice and all this advocacy we've been trying

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Speaker 5: to do in a different way was so effective through

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Speaker 5: a podcast. And over the course of the seven years

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Speaker 5: we ran Undisclosed, we did twenty five cases. Seventeen of

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Speaker 5: our defendants we have brought home, wow, two more of them.

437
00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,520
Speaker 5: They have hearings this year on DNA, and I'm hoping

438
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:32,280
Speaker 5: they'll be home this year or in the next year

439
00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,879
Speaker 5: or so as well. And so that was undisclosed, and

440
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,240
Speaker 5: since then I have been a true crime podcaster, using

441
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,440
Speaker 5: it as a tool to teach people about criminal justice

442
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,520
Speaker 5: and to hopefully make a difference in people's lives. That's

443
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:43,040
Speaker 5: so cool.

444
00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,159
Speaker 2: I want to know more about what you kind of

445
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,840
Speaker 2: learned in that process, about like what are some of

446
00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,760
Speaker 2: the patterns that you see in wrongful convictions, Like what

447
00:19:58,880 --> 00:19:59,639
Speaker 2: is going wrong?

448
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's definitely a pattern. And so when you know,

449
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,080
Speaker 5: when we get case requests, we'll spend the first six

450
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:06,720
Speaker 5: months to a year just kind of doing a review,

451
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,680
Speaker 5: but very quickly on you see the red flags. Number one,

452
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:11,960
Speaker 5: there's no forensic evidence time to defend into the crime.

453
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:13,399
Speaker 5: So a lot of these crimes aren't going to be

454
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,960
Speaker 5: from the eighties and nineties and even older. But once

455
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,320
Speaker 5: DNA got better, like you don't see it as much.

456
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,639
Speaker 5: It does. It's not that it doesn't happen, even in DNA.

457
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,200
Speaker 5: You can have people make mistakes, but so generally there's

458
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,080
Speaker 5: no forensics. The defendant has been convicted on the basis

459
00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:32,520
Speaker 5: of eyewitnesses oftentimes eyewitnesses whose either testimony is tainted because

460
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,639
Speaker 5: they were jail house witnesses like jail house informants, or

461
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:37,399
Speaker 5: they got some kind of a deal, like they were

462
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,639
Speaker 5: co defendants and they got a plea deal in exchange

463
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,119
Speaker 5: for the testimony, Like there's some reason that they testified

464
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,679
Speaker 5: and that that their statements changed over time. That's very common.

465
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,959
Speaker 5: Another thing, obviously, is like if there's a cop that

466
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,800
Speaker 5: was involved in another wrongful conviction of investigators, like they

467
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,360
Speaker 5: also have patterns. The detectives in a balance case, for example,

468
00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,800
Speaker 5: at the time zero was ongoing, were the subjects of

469
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 5: two or three different lawsuits at the time for framing,

470
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,480
Speaker 5: for framing other innocent defendants. Wow. And so when I

471
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:09,760
Speaker 5: heard the episode in which Sarah kaneg was like they

472
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,520
Speaker 5: were just basically good guys doing their jobs. I frantically

473
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:14,600
Speaker 5: texted her. I said, Sarah, these are links to the

474
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:19,600
Speaker 5: lawsuits that they are right now litigating because they framed

475
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 5: other innocent defendants using the same type. So you see

476
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,880
Speaker 5: that pattern. There are definitely patterns. And another pattern actually

477
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 5: is that that defendant knows almost nothing about the case

478
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:32,560
Speaker 5: because they're like, I have no idea what actually happened,

479
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,639
Speaker 5: but also that they maintain their innocence from the beginning.

480
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,200
Speaker 5: People think everybody in prison says that they're innocent. That's

481
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,399
Speaker 5: not true. Most people will be like, yeah, i'm paying

482
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,920
Speaker 5: you know, over time, we'll get to the point of

483
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 5: their like, I'm doing my time for what I did. Right,

484
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 5: But somebody who's innocent, it's rare. But they'll be the

485
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:50,960
Speaker 5: ones who like, I never had anything do this, and

486
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,640
Speaker 5: they will maintain that through parole hearings. They'll maintain that.

487
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:56,919
Speaker 5: They will give up plea deals because they'll say, no,

488
00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 5: I didn't do this.

489
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,159
Speaker 1: Do you think that on the police side, it's more

490
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 1: just due to laziness or like maliciousness.

491
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 5: It's due mostly to dumbness and mediocre man. Uh confident.

492
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,720
Speaker 5: I'm not kidding you. Yeah, there is almost every case

493
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 5: like these has at the core of it these detectives

494
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 5: who think, my gut is telling me that this guy

495
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 5: did it, and so they'll start off they really believe

496
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 5: their gut. They've got tunnel vision. They will not investigate

497
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,880
Speaker 5: anybody else. Like I said, the fact that the guy

498
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,440
Speaker 5: who found the victim's body in the Nonce case, they

499
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 5: never fingerprinted him or took his hair sample or took

500
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,359
Speaker 5: it like they're like, oh, you just randomly found a

501
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 5: body in the woods, Like, I mean, this is the

502
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,919
Speaker 5: guy who had already had a criminal history, so they

503
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 5: didn't investigate him. They didn't investigate her actual boyfriend at

504
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 5: the time, so they get tunnel vision. They do not

505
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,439
Speaker 5: collect evidence, they do not rule out other suspects. So

506
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 5: and then decades later, it's almost impossible to do the

507
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,399
Speaker 5: jobs they should have done. But then what happens is

508
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,199
Speaker 5: it is layered with malfeasan So they've got a gut feeling.

509
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 5: Now in order to get their guy, they will coerce witnesses,

510
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 5: they will plant evidence, they will do dirty things because

511
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 5: their gut but they really believe it's this guy, right,

512
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 5: but they'll they'll do dirty things to make the case.

513
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 5: So it's both.

514
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 2: It's all coercive interviews. That's something I really want to

515
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 2: do a deeper dive on on this podcast. It's so

516
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 2: subtle suggesting to a witness that you want a particular

517
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 2: answer is never overt or I mean, I'm sure sometimes

518
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 2: it's overt, but like it's so subtle, and I feel

519
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,880
Speaker 2: like that is something that there is not enough general

520
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,959
Speaker 2: awareness about in the criminal justice system, the way you

521
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 2: can shape what somebody believes that they are supposed to say.

522
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 2: And of course, another thing we talk about a lot

523
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,440
Speaker 2: here is how memory is malleable and people can start

524
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,880
Speaker 2: to question their own memory, and their memory can change

525
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 2: over time, and the human mind is just so manipulatable.

526
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, like people will confess to things that

527
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 5: they're like, I'm positive I didn't do that, but maybe

528
00:23:58,080 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 5: I did it. I mean. The confession tape is a

529
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 5: great on Netflix. Watch the Confession Tapes if you haven't.

530
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 5: It shows how people can completely be manipulated, worn down

531
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 5: over hours and hours into accepting something that that they

532
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 5: started off saying I had no I wasn't even in

533
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 5: the state I mean, like close to the crime scene.

534
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 5: And we are all susceptible to that after in certain conditions,

535
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,439
Speaker 5: but there are people who are more vulnerable to it,

536
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 5: younger people. A lot of wrongful conviction cases rest on

537
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 5: either the confession or the testimony of very young witnesses.

538
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 5: It's true for the West Memphis three case. It's true

539
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 5: for them making a murderer case. They're like sixteen, seventeen eighteen.

540
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 5: Their brains are like not developed there, and they believe

541
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 5: the detective who's like, just tell us this and you

542
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,360
Speaker 5: can go home, right. You know, police can lie to them,

543
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 5: but any one of us is susceptible to it, and

544
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 5: people think. But there is actually a lot of awareness now,

545
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 5: thank god, in the lot. And that's something the True

546
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 5: Crime has been very successful at doing, is creating this

547
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 5: awareness in the public that, oh my god, people do

548
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 5: falsely confess like people. We grew up thinking I would

549
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 5: never confess to something I didn't do, but actually any

550
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,199
Speaker 5: one of us in the right conditions would end up

551
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,919
Speaker 5: doing that. And so there's a lot more awareness and

552
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 5: I'm appreciated for that, and I I think I think

553
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 5: True Crime for that True Crime has You know, we

554
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 5: grew up an era of like Dateline and twenty twenty

555
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 5: where it's like you just, without question believe the state's

556
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 5: narrative and the police and the defectives, and now all

557
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 5: of us are very skeptical about this stuff. We can

558
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 5: see how it can go wrong so easily for any

559
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 5: one of us.

560
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 2: Right coerce confessions but also coerced statements about the defendant

561
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 2: and seen them as yeah, we see in this case.

562
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 4: Entrovert if somebody was like, you can go home.

563
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 5: Okay, that happened to Brandon Dacy was sixteen year old.

564
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 5: As six years old and on already, you know, in

565
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 5: the Making a Murderer case and the tape you watch

566
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 5: the tape of his dinner interrogation. He has no idea

567
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 5: what's going on. They're like, you can go home, go

568
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 5: home and watch the game, and he's like, okay.

569
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 3: That's so so sad.

570
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's heartbreaking. Yeah.

571
00:25:58,280 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 4: And I don't mean to be flippant.

572
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 1: I would try my hardest to you know, be there

573
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: for a week and maintain innocence for somebody. But I

574
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: can see how I could. I could be worn down

575
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 1: pretty easily.

576
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, And that's why you tell people ask for a

577
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 5: lawyer immediately. That'll shut it all down, you know, once

578
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 5: you ask for a lawyer, once you say I'm not

579
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 5: talking without a lawyer, then then they have to back off.

580
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 2: We're going to shift gears now, and I want to

581
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 2: talk a little bit about your work in CBE, which

582
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 2: is countering violent extremism. Can you explain what that is

583
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,199
Speaker 2: and how you came to work in that work space.

584
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, So I'm going to have to start a little

585
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 5: bit sooner than that. When when I was in law school,

586
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 5: two very significant events took place and none was arrested.

587
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 5: But nine to eleven happened as well. And I'm an

588
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 5: American Muslim, and I was part of this community that

589
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 5: suddenly found itself at the epicenter of this storm of fear, mistrust, surveillance.

590
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 5: I mean, just name it, and so many of us

591
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 5: and I you know, since nine eleven, a lot of them,

592
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 5: young American Muslims, have gone into law school, but I was.

593
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 5: I was a rare breed at the time because most immigrants,

594
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 5: like their kids are either becoming engineers or doctors or

595
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 5: business people. Not a lot of them went to law school.

596
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 5: So I was one of very few people that I

597
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 5: knew in law school at the time. And we didn't

598
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 5: have lawyers in our community, we didn't have advocates, we

599
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 5: didn't have advocacy groups. All this stuff. We had to

600
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 5: suddenly come together and figure out understanding civil rights, how

601
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 5: it works, when do we have to talk to police,

602
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 5: when do we not, what do we do best? Surveillance

603
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 5: and our Muslim student group associations at university, there was

604
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 5: so much happening, and I was sucked into that space

605
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 5: somewhat willingly, but also without really having a choice because

606
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 5: we didn't have a lot of people to talk to

607
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 5: speak up for our community. So I spent years doing

608
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 5: American Withslim advocacy civil rights work. I represented clients who

609
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 5: were being investigated by jttfs, which are Joint Terrors and

610
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 5: Tasks Forces. I worked with mosques to help keep them

611
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 5: protected from federal surveillance. And obviously if there's like an

612
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 5: eminent threat of if there's actually some legitimate reason for it, fine,

613
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 5: but there wasn't. In most of these cases fishing expeditions,

614
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 5: I had clients who very much like in the wrongful

615
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 5: conviction space would be like these young very vulnerable like

616
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,360
Speaker 5: this one young man I knew was bipolar and he

617
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 5: was not mentally well, and so you and we had

618
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 5: the FBI keep reaching out to him to say, will

619
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 5: you basically spy and your mosque, go to your mossue,

620
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 5: let the names of people tell us what they're talking about.

621
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 5: This is a super dangerous situation for anybody because this

622
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 5: kids bipolar to begin with, and he has substance abuse issues.

623
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 5: He could do or say anything. And you know, so

624
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 5: I was doing all this work and trying to figure

625
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 5: out what is going on at the same time. At

626
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 5: the same time, you know, the Internet was a space

627
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 5: where and social media in two thousand and nine, like

628
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 5: you know, it's exploded onto the scene. At the same time,

629
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 5: we had a situation in which there were actual extremists

630
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 5: and violent groups, jihadi groups, all kinds of crazive groups

631
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 5: overseas that were trying to recruit people from the US

632
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 5: and from the West and muslim from all over the

633
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 5: world to come and join this oval Jiad and be

634
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 5: part of this incredible Califate and making these promises to

635
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 5: young people who by two thousand and nine and twenty ten,

636
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,719
Speaker 5: a whole generation of like young American Muslims who were

637
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 5: seven or eight or nine now were now teenagers who

638
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 5: had grown up in a country that made them feel

639
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 5: like they were the enemy and were not part of it,

640
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 5: and so now they are disaffected. I met with so

641
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 5: many youth groups in which these kids are born and

642
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 5: raised in America and they're like, I don't feel like

643
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 5: an American, you know, when we talk about their identity,

644
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 5: I don't. So these are vulnerable groups two people overseas

645
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 5: trying to recruit them to like sunnier pastures and then

646
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 5: they go, I'm talking about isis I'm talking about you

647
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 5: know all these other groups that started using social media.

648
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 5: So you know, prior to Barack Obama's administration, the entire

649
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 5: framework around these issues was counter terror and that ended

650
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 5: up resulting in a lot of people being prosecuted for

651
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 5: just saying something stupid online under terrorism charges. Secret evidence

652
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 5: came into place, we had the Patriot Act. People couldn't

653
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 5: defend themselves. With the Obama administration, he created a framework

654
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 5: called cd which is Counting on Extremism, which allowed space

655
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 5: for Muslim leaders, local and national to meet with government

656
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 5: and say, look, we are experiencing threats to our community

657
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 5: from outside group, extremist groups, but also threats here from government,

658
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 5: and what is the space in which we can work?

659
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 5: And I'll give you a very good example of how

660
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 5: this program operated when it operated well, and that was

661
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 5: a case in which in this happened in Colorado, there

662
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 5: were two sisters, two young sisters, fifteen and sixteen. I

663
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 5: would go to a mosque and show a parent that

664
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 5: I can get on Twitter, and in five minutes I

665
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 5: could be talking to a nicest recruiter. Like That's how

666
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 5: easy it is for your kids. They can get to

667
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 5: your kids that quickly. They're predators. So there was a

668
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 5: case of these two sisters who in Colorado had again

669
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 5: been online, been in touch with these jihadi recruiters who

670
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 5: were convincing them and had convinced them to travel to Syria.

671
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 5: Get your passports, don't tell your parents, get the money together.

672
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 5: But they were found out before they left, and so

673
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 5: the parents were like, what do we do? Like They're like,

674
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 5: we can't, Like, what do we do about this? And

675
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 5: so they contacted their mom, the religius leator. He contacted

676
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 5: the local FBI department, the person working on CVE in

677
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 5: the local FBI field office, and instead of locking those

678
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 5: girls up and prosecuting them for trying to leave the

679
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 5: country and join ISIS in Syria. Now mind you, they

680
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 5: were not going to commit an act to terrorism in America.

681
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 5: They just wanted to leave and join like what they

682
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,719
Speaker 5: thought with this incredible global movement where they would feel

683
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 5: like they were with their people. What they did was

684
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 5: they got together with the government, They had an intervention.

685
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 5: They got those girls some counseling and therapy. They prevented

686
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 5: them from leaving the country. They got the State Department involved,

687
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 5: and they kept those girls safe that it was like

688
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 5: an off ramp for them without there being criminal charges,

689
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 5: without it becoming into something that would ruin their lives

690
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 5: and ruin their families. And so that was the purpose

691
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 5: of CVE. Know, it didn't work out well because you

692
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 5: can't it's very hard to get all the agencies on board,

693
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 5: it's hard to get all the community members on board,

694
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 5: and CVE eventually as a framework. But I was working

695
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 5: in CV. I'm sorry it was for such a long

696
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 5: but I have to explain what it's helpful. Yeah, And

697
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 5: so what I was doing specifically was trying to understand

698
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 5: very much to like the work you guys do, and

699
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 5: what you talk about is to how religious, how extremist groups,

700
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 5: ideological or religious or political extremist groups are able to

701
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 5: attract this following and win and have winning narratives like

702
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 5: what is it that they're doing. So I developed a

703
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 5: project that looked at two different case studies. One in

704
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 5: southern Punjab in Pakistan, where Pakistan is a country that

705
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 5: was pulled into and that's where I'm from, pulled into

706
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 5: the war on terror without them wanting to, and people

707
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 5: don't realize that because they agreed to be part of

708
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 5: our war on terror. Over fifty thousand Pakistanis died from

709
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 5: terrorist attacks inside of their country. So more Muslims have

710
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 5: been killed by Muslim extremists than anybody in the West.

711
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 1: Right.

712
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 5: So, so Pakistanis are dying, Bakshani civilians are dying at

713
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 5: the hand of Muslim extremists in their country, these religious

714
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 5: violent extremists, and they're using religion for their for their

715
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 5: ideal ideological kind of like you know foundation. And then

716
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 5: in sriight Lanka, what was happening, which was people don't

717
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 5: know about, is that there was a rise in Buddhist extremists.

718
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 5: People think Buddhists can't be extremists, but yes they can.

719
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 5: So there was an international network of Buddhist extremists and

720
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 5: they had I did not know this, Yeah, and so

721
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 5: because of their presence and their their activism online. What

722
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 5: it was doing was there are minority groups of Christians

723
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 5: and Hindus and muslim I said, I already said that

724
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 5: maybe Muslims, Christians and Hindus are the minority religions in

725
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 5: Sri Lanka, but they were under Those communities were under attack,

726
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 5: their businesses were being burned down. There were all these

727
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 5: crazy narratives about these groups that the Buddhist extremists, who

728
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 5: were actually the majority in the county, were very successfully

729
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 5: able to spread. And I'll give you an example, and

730
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 5: I worked with It's crazy because I worked with this

731
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,919
Speaker 5: group in Sri Lanka that was helping me in doing

732
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 5: the surveys. I had surveys of students and stuff that

733
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 5: we did at universities and helping me administer these and

734
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 5: one of the one of the narratives that this group

735
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 5: was very successfully able to propagate online was that ms

736
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,280
Speaker 5: do not visit Muslim owned restaurants because they will spit

737
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 5: in the food or they put something they put something

738
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 5: specifically in the food that will lower the birth rates

739
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,439
Speaker 5: of non Muslims because Muslims have high birth rates because

740
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 5: we just have more babies. It's just a thing and

741
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 5: there's a reason for them, but we do. And so

742
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 5: the Buddhist extremists were like and everybody believed, you know,

743
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,280
Speaker 5: this was very very common online. You would see videos

744
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 5: about it and memes about it and all the stuff.

745
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,399
Speaker 5: This young woman I was working with who was part

746
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 5: of this organization that was that wanted to stem this

747
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 5: tide of extremism. I asked her, I said, and she

748
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 5: was maybe twenty three or twenty four. I said, do

749
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 5: you believe that? And she's like, oh, yeah, I believe that.

750
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,720
Speaker 5: I won't eat ani Muslim restaurant because they put stuff

751
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 5: in our food to curb our birth rates. So it

752
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 5: was that pervasive and prevalent. And so that was my

753
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 5: you know, what I was able to find was it

754
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 5: kind of didn't matter what the ideology was. It doesn't

755
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 5: matter if it's extremists in Israel or right wing parties

756
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 5: in India or extremists, and like, they all had very

757
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 5: similar cult like features. They all had similar messaging strategies,

758
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 5: and they all spoke to similar vulnerable, disaffected groups. And

759
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 5: so we found these similarities. And because the question at

760
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 5: the time really was and we worked with Twitter, Facebook

761
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 5: and is what is better is to shut them down

762
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 5: censor their speech online, which is where they're doing a

763
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 5: lot of their recruiting, or is it better to counter

764
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 5: with better speech? Right, This was a big debate in

765
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 5: this space. So that was the work I was doing.

766
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 3: Where'd that land?

767
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 5: Yeah?

768
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 4: Where did that wan me?

769
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 5: You know, I did my research. I turned it over

770
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 5: to the US instead of piece, and then I pivoted

771
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 5: to wrongful conviction work. Okay, but I'll tell you where

772
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 5: it kind of landed. I'll tell you where it kind

773
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:08,720
Speaker 5: of landed. Where it landed. Was this what we realized

774
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 5: was what we were trying to do over decades was

775
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 5: to fight disinformation with facts, with information, with real information.

776
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 5: And it doesn't work. The better story, the better narrative works.

777
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 5: There's two ways to fight disinformation. A person is inoculated

778
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 5: from disinformation if number one, there's a stronger narrative that

779
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 5: they believe that aligns with their values, or if they

780
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 5: know even one person about which that narrative is about.

781
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 5: So the example would be somebody says all Muslims are terrorists,

782
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 5: and a guy says, but my doctor's a Muslim. I

783
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 5: don't think that's right. So they know one person that

784
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 5: helps inoculate them. Those are the only effective things. All

785
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 5: these facts and figures and data points do nothing to

786
00:36:53,520 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 5: change people's minds.

787
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 2: We've spoken to some people who are experts, on to

788
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 2: the extent that anyone can be. At this stage, I

789
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 2: think we're still learning so much, but on disinformation, how

790
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 2: it spreads, and something that we've heard a lot is

791
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 2: this idea of pre bunking instead of debunking, Like, once

792
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 2: someone has been exposed to the misinformation, it's like very

793
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 2: hard to change their minds. But if they're in advance

794
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 2: of that told the correct thing and kind of told

795
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,879
Speaker 2: that the information they're going to receive is misinformation, they're

796
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 2: less likely to believe it. But then it's a battle

797
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 2: of who can get to the people first. And that

798
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 2: seems just like incredibly complicated and difficult.

799
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, but you know, you can change even when people

800
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 5: are entrenched in a certain belief. You can change mind

801
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 5: through the power of human storytelling. And that's actually the

802
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 5: most important lesson I had from Cereal is because I

803
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 5: was doing all this advocacy work, it wasn't changing people's minds,

804
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 5: but Cereal was able to make millions of people have

805
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 5: sympathy for this young Muslim boy in a post nine

806
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 5: to eleven era when people generally didn't like us, because

807
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 5: they told a great story. And some of the folks

808
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 5: I worked with on CV strategy were actually folks who

809
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,919
Speaker 5: had worked in the marriage equality movement, and so they said,

810
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 5: you know, they were dealing with a country in which

811
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 5: you know, you have obviously at that time marriage equality

812
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:17,760
Speaker 5: was even a hard swill, a hard pill to swallow

813
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 5: for for democrats, for liberals, and you know, forget conservatives

814
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 5: and Republicans. You know, it was this impossible. How did

815
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 5: they do it? Will and grace telling stories, showing you know,

816
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 5: like I mean like humanizing, and over time people are like, oh,

817
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 5: they're just like us, I mean like and so that's

818
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 5: how you go. That's how you change minds as you

819
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 5: just do better storytelling and you put people at the

820
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 5: center of it without without like trying to shove policy

821
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 5: points and shove morality down their throats, right, just expose

822
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:54,320
Speaker 5: them to people who have different stories, and over time,

823
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 5: you know, it just kind of wears people down and

824
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 5: they're like, oh, I was wrong about.

825
00:38:57,920 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 3: It, right, activates those empathy centers.

826
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, what do you think? What do you think that

827
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 4: connection is?

828
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: Is it just what is it about people's personal stories

829
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: that make us go, whoa?

830
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 4: Is it a different part of the brain? Is what

831
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 4: is that?

832
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 5: I think it's just the way we are wired. And

833
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 5: I think there's a reason that all great religions base

834
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 5: their teachings in stories. And you know, pick up any

835
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 5: I don't care if it's a Torah or you know,

836
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 5: the New Testament or the Qur'an or the Geita. I mean,

837
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 5: people knew this thousands of years ago, and you tell stories,

838
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 5: and that's how you people learn lessons. Look, we tell

839
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 5: our children's stories to teach them lessons aesops fables. I mean,

840
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 5: you know, just telling somebody this is right and this

841
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 5: is wrong is much less effective than telling them a story,

842
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 5: because that allows them to reach the conclusion themselves. And

843
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 5: I think that's what it's about. Instead of forcing somebody

844
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 5: to a conclusion, you allow them to naturally reach that conclusion, right.

845
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes me think about that idea that I've

846
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:54,839
Speaker 2: talked about a little bit here, which is compassion fade,

847
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 2: which is that you can tell someone that thousands of

848
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 2: people have died and it like doesn't register in our brain.

849
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,760
Speaker 2: But you know, if they're shown a commercial, for example,

850
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 2: that just highlights one single child's story, they're like significantly

851
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 2: more likely to donate to that cause a thousand.

852
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, it's it's I don't know why we're just

853
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 5: that's just how we are. It's like, you know, a psychologist, psychologist,

854
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 5: psychiatristic for that.

855
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

856
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 2: I really liked your point about the Buddhist extremists. Because

857
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 2: something that I feel very frustrated about a lot is

858
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 2: this idea. I mean, it's a very Islamophobic idea. I

859
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 2: think that a radical violent extremism is a strictly Muslim problem,

860
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 2: and that there's only one religion that can become extreme

861
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 2: and become fundamentalist. When the reality is as we see,

862
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 2: absolutely any belief system can be taken to its extreme

863
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 2: and extrapolated upon and brought to a place that is

864
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 2: no longer benevolent. And then at the flip side, like

865
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:56,240
Speaker 2: almost any ideology almost of course, there are some inherently

866
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 2: hateful ideologies, but most ideologies can be practiced in a

867
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:05,800
Speaker 2: way that is light and harmless and interpreting things going, Yeah, exactly,

868
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 2: it's more just about like having community having something in

869
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 2: their lives. And this inability of the general public to

870
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 2: like understand how this applies to absolutely every belief.

871
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 3: System that exists is really really frustrating to me.

872
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's frustrating to me too. And you

873
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 5: know when as a Muslim, like you know, we it's

874
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 5: easier to identify Muslims, and so because I'm identifiable, I

875
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 5: wear a hijab most of the time a scarf morth

876
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 5: the time people think the fact that I am I

877
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 5: even wear a scarf means I'm a radical or there's

878
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,240
Speaker 5: something extremist, because in this country we have freedom of religion,

879
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 5: but not in the sense that people. People don't want

880
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 5: to see your.

881
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 3: Religion in the West, unless that's Cristia and maybe maybe, but.

882
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 5: Even for a lot of people, they don't even want

883
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 5: to see overt expressions of Christianity, right, Like nobody wants

884
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 5: to hear like a Bible circle happening at the airport lounge, right,

885
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 5: but you might see a Muslim praying in a corner.

886
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 5: So we have. But the problem is our religion is

887
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 5: much is much more performative in a sense that like

888
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 5: I got to pray my five times prayer wherever I

889
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 5: may be, and I'm gonna I might look, I don't

890
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 5: almost have not everybody looks like a Muslim and are Muslim,

891
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 5: but those of us who are observant do and so,

892
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 5: but that's just an expression of my uh my personal

893
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 5: like spiritual you know, whatever devotion. It has nothing to

894
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 5: do with you or the world. It's just me and God.

895
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 5: I mean, like that's just about us. But people are

896
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 5: very uncomfortable with that. The other thing is we pathologize, right,

897
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 5: Like we pathologize things by saying, you know, like I'll

898
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 5: give you an example when if there's a young black

899
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 5: kid who this happened very recently, in fact, just multiplely.

900
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 5: This happens all the time. If there's a young black kid, well,

901
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 5: let's say he's having a rough time at home or

902
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 5: just didn't get enough sleep and just has a bad

903
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 5: time at school, they'll call in a police a school

904
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 5: resource officer, which is a police officer because now they're like, oh, this, this,

905
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 5: this young thirteen year old black kid could be dangerous

906
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 5: because he's angry. Because you know what I mean, we

907
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 5: pathologize people. If it's a young white kid, they're gonna

908
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 5: be like, Okay, we're gonna call in a counselor and

909
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 5: therapists and we're gonna work on this. And so the

910
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,800
Speaker 5: same exact things you see in different groups of people,

911
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 5: we interpret them differently based on our blinders, our prejudices,

912
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:08,720
Speaker 5: our biases. And you know what's interesting is in America,

913
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, but America and the West, there's no group

914
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 5: of people that has a bloodier history than the Christian West.

915
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,959
Speaker 5: I don't care if it's slavery, colonialism, imperialism. I mean,

916
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 5: the military industrial complex we have had for the last

917
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 5: hundred years, the wars on terror, every single war we've waged.

918
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 5: No other group of people in the world has had

919
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 5: the power or the will to kill as many people

920
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 5: as we have. Yeah, the rest of the world sees this,

921
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 5: but we don't because we just view it as patriotism,

922
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 5: as whatever. I don't know how we view it like

923
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 5: in this country, but we don't see what we have

924
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 5: done overseas, and it is shocking to folks overseas when

925
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 5: you're like, okay, so if you fight back, we're the radicals. Right,

926
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 5: If we fight back on the lands that we live in,

927
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 5: because you're not waging those wars in your country, you're

928
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 5: waging them in our countries, then we're the ones are

929
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 5: the radicals. I mean, it's all a matter of worldview.

930
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 5: And I think part of the problem here is that

931
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 5: people don't or not we are as America kind of

932
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 5: like in this big chunk of land, and people think,

933
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 5: I don't need to know what's happening to the Russell

934
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 5: the world, But we're actually a very small part of

935
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 5: the world. And if we traveled more, if we met

936
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 5: people more, if we understood what we have done as

937
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 5: a nation state, what we've done as a nation state.

938
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 5: State violence is responsible for the deaths of millions and

939
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 5: millions and millions versus things versus things like you know,

940
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 5: an isis soldier right, like the scale is.

941
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well to your point, I mean, I think the

942
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 1: thing that helped expand my horizons on that was the

943
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: show Homeland because it personalized it for me. I saw

944
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,359
Speaker 1: the pov of something else, and then I suddenly wasn't

945
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: immersed in this culture anymore, and I was able to

946
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 1: be WHOA. So yeah, it's very interesting that we have.

947
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 5: What's funny to me is that like most most Muslims

948
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 5: who watch that show hated a show.

949
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: Yes, I know, I know, but at least it took

950
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 1: me a little bit out of the bubble.

951
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 5: Yeah.

952
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 4: My Muslim friend had said that she hated it very much.

953
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,320
Speaker 5: Help them. And the real reason we hated it is

954
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 5: because it's like, why is the only Why are Muslims

955
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 5: only portrayed? Why can't we just be prayed as a family,

956
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,800
Speaker 5: you know, as a as a twenty percent of the

957
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,720
Speaker 5: physicians in this country are Muslim, so make a show

958
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 5: about like an er with Muslims in it. What is everything?

959
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 5: Every context is terrorism, Like that's what we're sick of.

960
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 2: When you were kind of in that world, were there

961
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:28,760
Speaker 2: conversations being had or sort of research that was generally

962
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 2: understood about the root causes the violent extremism?

963
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 5: I mean almost always it is the root cause have

964
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 5: something to do with some kind of political change. So

965
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 5: at the center of it is a group organizations that

966
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 5: believe that society needs to be like X, you know

967
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 5: what I mean. And to make that political change, they're

968
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 5: willing to engage in violence. It's always political almost on

969
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 5: some and for some they will use well a lot

970
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 5: of them, I mean, whether it's Christian values right like,

971
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 5: and if they can't manipulate the courts and this and that,

972
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 5: then they resort to violence. For others Muslim you know stuff,

973
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 5: and then you have the Buddhists. But there's always some

974
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 5: core belief that everything society is going wrong because society

975
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 5: is not working the way my belief system says it

976
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 5: should be. The violence is an end to a political

977
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,439
Speaker 5: means basically, so that's usually at the root of it.

978
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 5: It's also a way to fight back the state itself.

979
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 5: So you look at the militias in America, right, there

980
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 5: are many, many, many militias groups. I mean, the FBI

981
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 5: has for decades named the number one threat to the

982
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 5: homeland not jiha these but actual white Christian militia groups. Yeah.

983
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 5: At the core of these militia groups is the sense

984
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 5: that we have no power in government, we have no

985
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 5: power to make change. We want to make change, so

986
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 5: we're doing it the best way we can. Sometimes they're

987
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 5: violent and sometimes they're not, but almost all the time,

988
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 5: as militias, they have amassed weapons of violence, right in

989
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 5: order to defend what they believe. But there's always almost

990
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,240
Speaker 5: a political thing. I mean, it's sincere belief, for example,

991
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:02,240
Speaker 5: that abortion is and I'll kill people to prevent abortion

992
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 5: from happening.

993
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 2: Right, So ironic. We live in a very very polarized

994
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 2: time right now. Obviously Palestine has been extremely polarizing and

995
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 2: has led to very heated conversations.

996
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:14,359
Speaker 3: I know in my own life.

997
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 2: Is there anything you see sort of missing from the

998
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 2: conversation about Israel Palestine?

999
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 5: There are things missing from both sides of the conversation, right,

1000
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 5: I mean, and I look, I have spent years doing

1001
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 5: Muslim Jewish advocacy. I have been a fellow of an

1002
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 5: Israeli institute, college, Sholm Hartman Institution, and I spent a

1003
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 5: year going back and forth from Israel trying to understand

1004
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 5: what's really happening here. And I walked away realizing that

1005
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 5: everybody's in their bubbles. But at the end of the day,

1006
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 5: you know what I say about what's going on in

1007
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 5: this particular, the last seven eight months, the destruction in Gaza,

1008
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 5: the assault on Gaza, is this. It is not helpful

1009
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 5: at this moment to the people who are suffering to

1010
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 5: talk about who's right, who's wrong, what the history really says,

1011
00:47:56,160 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 5: who owns what? It's not helpful to anybody. What you

1012
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 5: know I think. I mean, actually, you know, there there

1013
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 5: we have. We know that having a common enemy is

1014
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 5: often very helpful for the strategic interests of a political party.

1015
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 5: And net Nyahu has said that we need hump like

1016
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:16,879
Speaker 5: I kind of need Hummas. It gives them a thing

1017
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 5: to do, It gives them a reason to be popular.

1018
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 5: Like we always we need we needed, you know, we

1019
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 5: need to rush up for the Cold War. We always

1020
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:24,919
Speaker 5: need a common enemy to keep you know, things going

1021
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 5: and the ammunition flowing and all this stuff and the

1022
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 5: power maintained where it is. But Humas is never going

1023
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 5: to go away as long as the occupation exists. As

1024
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 5: simple as that, I mean, like, if you look at

1025
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 5: the broader picture, at the end of the day, it

1026
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 5: is about the occupation until there's Palestinian statehood, which is

1027
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 5: a conversation that never seems to come around. There's always

1028
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:45,919
Speaker 5: going to be a response that looks like Hummas because

1029
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 5: these are people fighting for their lives and they do

1030
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 5: so sometimes by legitimate means and sometimes by illegitimate means,

1031
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 5: And that's a whole different conversation, right, But that they're

1032
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 5: gonna they're gonna exist given given the circumstances that the

1033
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:00,320
Speaker 5: Palestinians find themselves in, They're not going to go away,

1034
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 5: and they can either resist or die, and they've been

1035
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 5: dying for a long time. Resistance is not always ethical,

1036
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 5: which is what happened on October seventh. It's not always legal,

1037
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 5: it's not always right. But when people get into that,

1038
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,760
Speaker 5: I said, I try to divert them to the issue

1039
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 5: of immediate human suffering. And the immediate human suffering is

1040
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:20,879
Speaker 5: what I want to see stop. That's why I believe

1041
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 5: in a ceasefire should be called. I'm anti war in general.

1042
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 5: I don't care where it is, and so, but watching

1043
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 5: in real time children being blown to smithereens and its

1044
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 5: being starved and not having access to water, but they

1045
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 5: have access to social media. I mean it's almost a

1046
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 5: dystopian that we can watch it, but we can't do

1047
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 5: anything about it. And so I don't care. I mean,

1048
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 5: when it comes to this particular issue, I don't want

1049
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,319
Speaker 5: to get into the narratives and the history. I want

1050
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 5: to stop suffering.

1051
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 2: The same I saw there was that political piece yesterday

1052
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 2: that said Biden officials have become increasingly concerned that HAMAS

1053
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 2: has been able to recruit during war time thousands of

1054
00:49:58,760 --> 00:49:59,800
Speaker 2: the last several months.

1055
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 3: And it's hard to not want to respond and be like,

1056
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 3: you think, like.

1057
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 5: We're creating generations of people. I mean, imagine the trauma

1058
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 5: there are. Okay, you have the kids killed, you have

1059
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 5: the kids who are disabled, right, blind, blind, they have

1060
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 5: no arms, legs, you have you also have tens of

1061
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 5: thousand children who are orphaned. What are they supposed to do?

1062
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 5: Who are they supposed to go to? What do you

1063
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 5: think they're going to do? I mean, like it is

1064
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 5: the same thing we see in like the inner city

1065
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 5: here where kids end up turning to gangs because they're

1066
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 5: looking for some kind of structure, something to like keep

1067
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:35,280
Speaker 5: give them a purpose.

1068
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:38,919
Speaker 2: Right, extreme belief is bred from instability, and what could

1069
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 2: be more unstable than all of the schools being destroyed,

1070
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,240
Speaker 2: most of the hospitals being destroyed, like your.

1071
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:46,359
Speaker 3: Family being taken away.

1072
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm just I'm just not sure how it

1073
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 2: achieves the goal of eradicating the organization.

1074
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 5: Because I will argue that's not the actual goal.

1075
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,840
Speaker 3: But that's yeah, right, but people believe it is.

1076
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 2: And again, but that's where we get start to get

1077
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 2: into the facts aren't really going to make a difference

1078
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:04,800
Speaker 2: at that point, and it is more just about like,

1079
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 2: no one, regardless of their ethnicity or religious background or

1080
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 2: where they live, should who is just a regular as civilian,

1081
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 2: especially a child, should be killed for no reason.

1082
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, you have. I don't think it should be

1083
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 5: controversial to be anti war, simple as that.

1084
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 3: Amen.

1085
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 2: I'm so nervous about the future of this country for

1086
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:26,800
Speaker 2: so many reasons. I mean, one, so many people myself included,

1087
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 2: have lost faith in sort of the systems actually listening

1088
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 2: to what we care about.

1089
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 3: And then of course Trump's probably going to be president again.

1090
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 2: There's so much division, Like, are you nervous at all

1091
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:41,760
Speaker 2: about what's to come in terms of extremism being bred

1092
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 2: here and elsewhere?

1093
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 5: I mean, I feel like another Trump administration is inevitable

1094
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 5: at this point for lots of different reasons. I mean,

1095
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 5: anything to change, I guess in the next year. But no,

1096
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 5: I mean the reason I'm not really nervous about it

1097
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:56,359
Speaker 5: is because during the first administration, I had a show

1098
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 5: called The forty Fifth that me and another lawyer, Susan Simpson,

1099
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:01,280
Speaker 5: we did because we were just frantically. I was texting

1100
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 5: back and forth about like, oh my god, they just

1101
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 5: did this. Oh my God. I was like, we'll just

1102
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,320
Speaker 5: get on a get on a podcast time. So we

1103
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 5: every every week, and it was exhausting because that administration,

1104
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 5: not a day would go by that it wasn't like

1105
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 5: a volcano of news and sanity. They were doing so

1106
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:19,319
Speaker 5: many crazy things. So we had on very very early

1107
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 5: on on our show as a guest, Howard Dean. And

1108
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 5: Howard Dean had run for president a long time ago.

1109
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 5: Uh he's a former governor of Vermont, and so we

1110
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 5: had him on as a guest. And so when we

1111
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 5: had him on, you know, Trump had been president for

1112
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:35,319
Speaker 5: I don't know, maybe four or five months at this point,

1113
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 5: and we were like terrified, frantic, everything's chaloes, everything's gonna like,

1114
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 5: you know, and he was so calm, and he had

1115
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 5: this really long perspective. He said, listen, he said, we

1116
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 5: have been through world wars, we have been through civil

1117
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 5: rights movement, we have been through slavery, We've been through

1118
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,359
Speaker 5: a civil war. He's like, believe me, this country has

1119
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:55,359
Speaker 5: seen worse and things get bad and then things get better.

1120
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 5: He's like, this is just the trajectory of any society.

1121
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 5: He's like, so it might feel like it's never this bad,

1122
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:02,799
Speaker 5: but I promise you felt like that to people who

1123
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 5: are enslaved. I promise you felt like that in during Vietnam.

1124
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 5: I promised you felt like that. And so that having

1125
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:11,320
Speaker 5: that perspective has made me feel much more like this

1126
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 5: too shall pass. And you know, when when we were

1127
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 5: at the precipice of the first Trump administration, everybody I

1128
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 5: knew was like, I'm moving to Canada if he gets elected.

1129
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:24,399
Speaker 5: Nobody moved to Canada. We all were here and I'll

1130
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 5: stay here. And we survived and there was a lot

1131
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,279
Speaker 5: of damage done, which the Supreme Court continues to show

1132
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:33,400
Speaker 5: us the damage that was done. He's going to do

1133
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 5: a lot more damage. So I'm nervous about that. It

1134
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,839
Speaker 5: is going to test everything we ever knew about our

1135
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:43,319
Speaker 5: democracy and the faith we feel his democracy. But there

1136
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 5: nothing is full proof and he's a fool, and so

1137
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 5: we are gonna pay a big price. We're going to

1138
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:52,879
Speaker 5: lose a lot of important institutions. It's going to happen,

1139
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 5: but I do think also will bounce back. We'll come back.

1140
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:56,400
Speaker 3: Well, that's very optimistic.

1141
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 2: I'm personally very very concerned about the climate policy that

1142
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 2: is going to be undone, which he's just straight up said.

1143
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 2: He set out to all those oil executives like, if

1144
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 2: you give me a billion dollars, all undo all of

1145
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 2: the climate legislation.

1146
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, you'll get rid of the regulations. He's already said.

1147
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 5: Form of education, the FBI, the DOJ is going to

1148
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 5: be stripped. He's going to arrest student protesters, He's going

1149
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:24,320
Speaker 5: to deport people. There will be massive disruption to immigration,

1150
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 5: Assiles and refugees will no longer be here. It's going

1151
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 5: to because this is his last chance to get it

1152
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 5: all in and he's going to do it. Him and

1153
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 5: his cronies, you know, they're all waiting.

1154
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 3: I'll be very curious to see.

1155
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 2: You know, in the seventies there was this real wave

1156
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 2: of domestic terrorism of people sort of using bombing property

1157
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 2: or destruction of property as a means of expression. I'll

1158
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 2: be very curious to see how much eco terrorism is

1159
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 2: about to happen. And it's going to be fun, guys,

1160
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:51,359
Speaker 2: so fun.

1161
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:55,479
Speaker 5: Yeah. I mean, look, I it's like our greatest threat

1162
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 5: on a daily basis is still like gun violence, mash

1163
00:54:58,960 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 5: shootings and stuff.

1164
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1165
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 5: So I feel like we have plenty to be worried about.

1166
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 5: But at the same time, you just got to take

1167
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:06,800
Speaker 5: it a data time and live your life and look forward.

1168
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 5: And when I look forward, I'll tell you what I'm seeing.

1169
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 5: What I'm seeing is this, And this is what terrifies

1170
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:14,320
Speaker 5: a lot of people in this country who do support Trump.

1171
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 5: Is this changing demographics in this country. Is young people

1172
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 5: who are smarter than we were. Is young people who

1173
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 5: know more than we do. They're more sensitive to issues

1174
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 5: and more aware of issues when it comes to civil rights,

1175
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 5: women's rights, human rights. We're seeing this in the last

1176
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 5: eight nine months with the response to Gaza across the country.

1177
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 5: I do have faith in our young people and those

1178
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 5: young people are going to grow up with leaders.

1179
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 3: Do you have any final thoughts on any of this?

1180
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:48,839
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, I think this is the kind

1181
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 5: of issue that you know, people do get very alarmed about,

1182
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:54,520
Speaker 5: the get obsessed about. They worry a lot about and

1183
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 5: having worked through a lot of it, and you know,

1184
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:00,520
Speaker 5: I'm an American, but I'm about the sunny American. I

1185
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 5: have a global perspective. I've done and I think more

1186
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:07,000
Speaker 5: than a lot of Americans people like me who come

1187
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 5: from immigrant backgrounds, we understand the world better. We understand

1188
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:13,279
Speaker 5: history and all different things that affected different parts of

1189
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 5: the world better. Is to actually just remain calm and

1190
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:19,480
Speaker 5: try to be a good person, and you know, just

1191
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 5: be good to your neighbors and be you know what

1192
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 5: I mean, like, just live your life and don't get

1193
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 5: wrapped up in all this. Do what you can to

1194
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:30,360
Speaker 5: exercise your power, vote, you know, work in your sphere

1195
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:34,239
Speaker 5: of influence. But don't get despondent over it. Don't get

1196
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 5: depressed over it. Don't because the world has seen awful

1197
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:42,400
Speaker 5: things in its history, and we have better healthcare than

1198
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 5: we've ever had in the history of the world. We

1199
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 5: have better everything, you know what I mean, Like things

1200
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 5: have been so much darker. There's a reason it was

1201
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:49,799
Speaker 5: called the Dark Ages when it was called the star

1202
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:51,759
Speaker 5: you know what I mean. Like, I just don't feel

1203
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 5: especially for young people. I mean, I'm reading about this,

1204
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 5: about this phenomenon called bedrot. They're like young people are

1205
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 5: just staying in bed out of depression. You know, they're

1206
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 5: not They're not connecting. And I just encourage like my

1207
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:04,959
Speaker 5: kids and young people to get out connect with people.

1208
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 5: I just live your life to the best you can

1209
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:09,400
Speaker 5: in the circumstances you have, and don't worry about these

1210
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 5: huge things because they're not in our control and they

1211
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 5: too shall pass.

1212
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 3: Where can people find you and your various products.

1213
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:19,960
Speaker 5: Well, you can know my website, which is Rabia Jadrey

1214
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 5: dot com. You can also contact me through the contact

1215
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:26,960
Speaker 5: form through there. I am on Instagram at Robbia squared two.

1216
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 5: It's spelled out Robbia than squared the word squared then

1217
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 5: number two and I post there mostly about like my garden,

1218
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 5: my cat so and then I have a I have

1219
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 5: a couple of shows right now. One is Robbie and

1220
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 5: Ellen Solve the Case, which is a real fun show

1221
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 5: to do. It's a different than Undisclosed, which was a

1222
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 5: long form investigative podcast. This is every week or every

1223
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 5: other week we have on a celebrity guest and we

1224
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 5: talk about a case they want to talk about, because

1225
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 5: celebrities love food crime too, and we really try to

1226
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:56,800
Speaker 5: like show people how to actually get to the facts

1227
00:57:56,840 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 5: and evidence and be able to discern the two and

1228
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:02,920
Speaker 5: bring the skills of Undisclosed and the analysis of Undisclosed

1229
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:05,120
Speaker 5: to this show. So Robbie and Allen Solve the Case

1230
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 5: on all your podcasts app I have a show called

1231
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:12,400
Speaker 5: Nighty Night, which your producer also is my editor for that,

1232
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 5: and I love it and it's just it's just like

1233
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:17,400
Speaker 5: kind of a creative fun project for me. And I

1234
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 5: read these creepy bedtime stories and in my creepy bettime voice, and.

1235
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 4: I listened last night while I was home alone, and

1236
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 4: it did scare me.

1237
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 5: Yes, I'm very excited. I'm also I have a new

1238
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 5: podcast coming out called The Mystery Robbi Each Other Prince

1239
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 5: presents the Mystery Hour with the Alfred Hitchcock and Ellery

1240
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 5: Queen Mystery magazines. And I'll be narrating Amazing mystery and

1241
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 5: mysteries my thing. I love mystery and horror. I'll be

1242
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 5: narrating stories from Alfred Hitchcock and Ellery Queen Mystery magazines

1243
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 5: in conjunction with the publications.

1244
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:51,000
Speaker 3: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us today.

1245
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 5: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. It was

1246
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 5: a very wide reaching conversation.

1247
00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 4: I think we had everything.

1248
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, y'all, if there is injustice and there's something

1249
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:03,840
Speaker 3: that we can do about it, we should try. We

1250
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:04,720
Speaker 3: should always try.

1251
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:07,920
Speaker 2: But then when that's over, or when we've hid an

1252
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 2: area where we don't have any power like we do,

1253
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 2: have to go back and be people and remember to live.

1254
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 2: Because also we're just less effective at decision making, at communication,

1255
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:22,520
Speaker 2: at most things when we are emotionally just regulated. So

1256
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:24,920
Speaker 2: we have to come back to life when we can

1257
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:27,520
Speaker 2: and hopefully do both at the same time, which is

1258
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:29,720
Speaker 2: easier said than don and I personally am terrible at it.

1259
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 3: We are going to leave that there for now. Big

1260
00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:34,920
Speaker 3: thanks to Robbia for coming.

1261
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:38,160
Speaker 1: On, and big thanks for y'all for listening. As all is,

1262
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 1: remember to follow your gut, watch out for red flags.

1263
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:45,439
Speaker 3: And never ever trust trusting Bye Bye.

1264
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 2: Trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

1265
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.

1266
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:55,600
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para and our.

1267
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 3: Theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1268
00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1269
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:04,680
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cultpod, or on TikTok at trust

1270
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:05,960
Speaker 1: Me Cult Podcast.

1271
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 3: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1272
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Abraham

1273
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1274
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:16,520
Speaker 3: Remember to rate and review and spread the word