Speaker 1: Pushkin. When Esperanza Spalding won Best New Artist at the
Speaker 1: Grammys in twenty eleven, she made headlines for two reasons.
Speaker 1: One she was the first ever jazz musician to win
Speaker 1: the award, and two she stole Best New Artist from
Speaker 1: Justin Bieber. The believers are still pissed. Since that first
Speaker 1: big win, Esperanza has won three more Grammys and released
Speaker 1: seven studio albums, including twenty seventeen's Exposure, which was conceived, written,
Speaker 1: and recorded entirely in seventy seven hours on Facebook Live.
Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, to released twelve Little Spells. It was
Speaker 1: inspired by the Japanese healing art ray Ki, with each
Speaker 1: song composed as a spell for a specific part of
Speaker 1: the body. Looking at her body of work and how
Speaker 1: she's evolved from a young, prodigious stand up bass player
Speaker 1: and jazz composer to an experimental, multimedia conceptual artist, it's
Speaker 1: easy to see why Esperanza Spalding sees herself as more
Speaker 1: than a jazz musician, but her improvisational approach to turning
Speaker 1: abstract ideas into emotionally moving pieces of music pretty much
Speaker 1: makes her the personification of jazz, whether she likes it
Speaker 1: or not this is broken record liner notes for the
Speaker 1: digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Esperanza sat with Bruce Heilom
Speaker 1: and Brooklyn to talk about the instinctual way she makes music,
Speaker 1: jamming with Joni Mitchell, and the opera she's writing with
Speaker 1: the legendary Wayne Shorter that's set to be released next year. Wow,
Speaker 1: this voice is really beautiful. It's got a good vibe
Speaker 1: and it's huge. This is actually reminding me how much
Speaker 1: I love to be in the studio. It's been about
Speaker 1: a year, and I think that means it's time to
Speaker 1: go back soon. You haven't been in a studio in
Speaker 1: a year, and was for that. That was for twelve
Speaker 1: Little Spells, for the four Bonus Spells. It's actually sixteen
Speaker 1: Little Spells now because because of some of the finagling
Speaker 1: that one must do when you're dancing through the music industry,
Speaker 1: I wanted twelve and for there to be a second
Speaker 1: wave and reason to talk about the project again. I
Speaker 1: was asked and encouraged right for more songs, because apparently
Speaker 1: I'm I've yet to grow into the awareness of what
Speaker 1: it is to generate music as commodity. My first instinct
Speaker 1: is already to figure out a way to just release
Speaker 1: it big and around and wide. Um. So I wanted
Speaker 1: to release the twelve Little Spells one every day at
Speaker 1: twelve twelve leading up to my birthday, and I wanted
Speaker 1: to just blast them out because I wanted the the
Speaker 1: effect of the Spells to reach as many people as possible. Um.
Speaker 1: But that's it. It's hard to capitalize on that approach.
Speaker 1: So in collaboration with the label, we came up with
Speaker 1: the idea, well, let's make former bonus Spells and then
Speaker 1: there's a reason to go get the record. So now
Speaker 1: we should explain twelve Little Spells, which was your last
Speaker 1: full album. Yeah, they were twelve songs now sixteen, but
Speaker 1: they were based on different parts of the body. Did
Speaker 1: the concept come first for that or did the songs
Speaker 1: come first? It came as a hit, almost like an
Speaker 1: instruction manual. I can remember I was in transit. I
Speaker 1: don't remember from where to where, but I know that
Speaker 1: by the time I got home to my apartment, I
Speaker 1: had written out the outline of the whole project that
Speaker 1: it was twelve Little Spells and the title and what
Speaker 1: the title was saying, which was an announcement of what
Speaker 1: this work is as an interim piece before the next
Speaker 1: big project. So the titles twelve little spells to tide
Speaker 1: you over to the next full thing. Touch in my, Touch,
Speaker 1: in mine, the longing deep down. You have to dance now, no,
Speaker 1: all limbs are readying to rise, dancing the animal with others.
Speaker 1: And it was a it's a sort of poem explanation
Speaker 1: of what this project is until the next project, which
Speaker 1: is about dancing and movement and dancing that the wild, untethered,
Speaker 1: free forms of dance with structured presentation. Um. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: by the time I got home, here were the song titles,
Speaker 1: here were their effects on the body, and I had
Speaker 1: my instruction manual. And then I spent a month and
Speaker 1: some change just assembling that structure, assembling that entity from
Speaker 1: the instruction manual. So you wrote all that on the subway, No,
Speaker 1: I wrote it all in the castle in Italy. Okay,
Speaker 1: but m yeah, that was amazing. That was amazing. Every
Speaker 1: morning I would be, um, you know, go for where
Speaker 1: will you pick up your espresso in the morning if
Speaker 1: you so desired? And they had me in the converted
Speaker 1: pig pen because I didn't want to be in the cask,
Speaker 1: because I figured it would be extremely haunted. So I
Speaker 1: would go get my espresso and then walk around the
Speaker 1: priffrey of the castle back towards my converted pig pen,
Speaker 1: which is on another, you know, part of the grounds,
Speaker 1: and I would pass Azar Nafisi almost every day, who
Speaker 1: was working on her book, And just that process of witnessing,
Speaker 1: you know, a master craftsman sitting and witnessing the development
Speaker 1: of their piece page by page, you know, was the fuel,
Speaker 1: part of the fuel I think for making this happen,
Speaker 1: because you know, the creative process is abstract. It feels
Speaker 1: sometimes like you're doing nothing. So it was so encouraging
Speaker 1: and affirming to witness another person in that practice, accumulating
Speaker 1: that body that they came to work on. Now there's
Speaker 1: always the descriptions of you you were prodigy, or this
Speaker 1: you were that. I would like to lean into the
Speaker 1: microphone now and spell those myths that I was a
Speaker 1: prodigy or anything like that. I wasn't a prodigy. I am.
Speaker 1: I have a talent in music, and I found my
Speaker 1: way early on. But I have seen prodigies, and I
Speaker 1: know prodigies, and it's a thing. It's like it's like
Speaker 1: a subset of the species, you know, and I just
Speaker 1: I partly want to dispel that myth because I think
Speaker 1: it it's misleading. You know, it makes it seem like
Speaker 1: maybe there's something special or something different fundamentally about you know,
Speaker 1: my makeup as an as an entity, as a humanoid,
Speaker 1: and it's not true. You know, there are some folks
Speaker 1: who are and they're exceedingly rare, and then there are
Speaker 1: other folks who just figured out a way to get
Speaker 1: a lot of practice in early on and it accumulates
Speaker 1: and then you can do things that other ten year
Speaker 1: olds can't do. But it's best of it because I
Speaker 1: was a prodigy. It's because I I played a lot.
Speaker 1: You know, I practice a lot. Well is that good?
Speaker 1: Because you know prodigies and you know, being a prodigy
Speaker 1: often is it's maladaptive. They don't. It's if you're great
Speaker 1: at something when you're five, often you're doing the same
Speaker 1: thing at thirty five. And people are you know, there's
Speaker 1: always those those great classical musicians who are you know,
Speaker 1: who are described as the fifty year old child prodigy.
Speaker 1: You know, they can't kind of get past what they
Speaker 1: did at a a certain age, right. And I the part
Speaker 1: that I resonate with about that quote unquote prodigy part
Speaker 1: is simply the part where nobody can explain why you
Speaker 1: can do what you can do, you know, And I
Speaker 1: think part of what sets a prodigy apart is that
Speaker 1: for the same amount of time that their friend in
Speaker 1: the music school puts in, this kid just gets more done. Somehow, somehow,
Speaker 1: there's a to do more for reasons that nobody can explain.
Speaker 1: And at a certain point, when you want to expand
Speaker 1: past what it is you've become good at, but you
Speaker 1: don't remember why you can do what you do, that
Speaker 1: is intimidating and stressful it can be. And I can't
Speaker 1: appreciate why you wouldn't you wouldn't lean into that territory.
Speaker 1: And there are some aspects about you know, my practice
Speaker 1: that I it's like abousing before the divination. There are
Speaker 1: some aspects that I don't know. I don't know how
Speaker 1: that happens or how it works. But when I try
Speaker 1: to apply that to like a new medium, let's say,
Speaker 1: like writing an opera doesn't work, then you discover like, hmm, okay,
Speaker 1: there's a process here, there's a there's a skill set
Speaker 1: that must be developed to yield the same results over here.
Speaker 1: As I'm able to yield over there without having necessarily
Speaker 1: mastered that skill set, you know, So just saying I
Speaker 1: have compassion for the fifty year old child prodigies out there.
Speaker 1: What was your first experience of music then? What do
Speaker 1: you remember? Well, it would be my mother singing in
Speaker 1: the house and making up little songs about whatever was
Speaker 1: happening in the moment. So she she had this one.
Speaker 1: You don't need to cry because your mama is by
Speaker 1: your mama who love you and will never never leave you.
Speaker 1: You don't need to cry because your mama is by
Speaker 1: you know. I don't know where that comes from, but she,
Speaker 1: she would always have this sort of soundtrack happening to life.
Speaker 1: There was a wake up song, there was a prepping
Speaker 1: the meal song. And that is my first memory of music.
Speaker 1: My first memory of music out there was hearing your
Speaker 1: mom on my stage's neighborhood. Like I've said that so
Speaker 1: many times in my life, but it was and hearing
Speaker 1: your hearing your mom, hearing the box cello suite. I
Speaker 1: don't know if it was aomara, was the box teller sueeze,
Speaker 1: but by the way, he was a vehicle and on
Speaker 1: mister Rodgers neighborhood, mister Rodgers neighbor which also the interesting
Speaker 1: piece about that episode is after Yoma performed, they went
Speaker 1: to make Believe Land, and in that episode, the next
Speaker 1: thing that happened is Lady Amberlin was dressed as an
Speaker 1: upright bass and the other woman character was playing an
Speaker 1: upright bass. And I don't have a conscious memory of
Speaker 1: seeing that. But that, again, was like the download that
Speaker 1: all came at once, and then it's a humbling reckoning
Speaker 1: of like, oh, I'm again just I'm just following the
Speaker 1: programming that I didn't even realize I received, you know,
Speaker 1: a five. So now was that just a memory or
Speaker 1: on mister Rodgers Neighborhood that actually happened. I only know
Speaker 1: that that happened because I've seen it since I don't
Speaker 1: have a conscious memory of seeing that in the episode.
Speaker 1: What I remember is hearing I didn't know it was
Speaker 1: about tells at the time. I can remember the prickling
Speaker 1: in the this um almost like pain, you know, such
Speaker 1: a deep sensation of attraction to something that I felt
Speaker 1: towards the music that Yoma was playing. No conscious memory
Speaker 1: of seeing the basses. But later when I saw the episode,
Speaker 1: I went, oh damn, I'm just I've just following the instructions.
Speaker 1: You know that all came at the same time. Um,
Speaker 1: those are my first memories of music. Well, you can
Speaker 1: do worse than following, mister rogers omen I agree. I
Speaker 1: think you did well. And then your first instrument was what, well,
Speaker 1: it would have been violent. They didn't have any um,
Speaker 1: half sized or quarter sized cellos at the program that
Speaker 1: I first enter music through, so it was fortunately or
Speaker 1: unfortunately violin and that yeah, unfortunately you didn't like the violin.
Speaker 1: I didn't really like the violet. I like other people
Speaker 1: playing the violin, but yeah, I was seeking that sound.
Speaker 1: I was seeking what I heard. I wanted the cello,
Speaker 1: and thank god, and then I just get past the
Speaker 1: tell I want right up to the next floor, up
Speaker 1: to the base. And then when did the bass start?
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know if the bass has started yet.
Speaker 1: It's such a immense territory and for all the technical
Speaker 1: facility one can accumulate early on again serves a very
Speaker 1: profound function in music. And I I think that the
Speaker 1: older one gets, the more one matures, the better they
Speaker 1: are at actually being a bass player. So I don't know,
Speaker 1: I don't know if bass has begun yeah, when you
Speaker 1: started playing. How much were you practicing? I don't remember really,
Speaker 1: probably a lot, I don't. I don't remember those early days.
Speaker 1: I just remember um playing by ear and suddenly hearing
Speaker 1: this music that I was told was jazz and having
Speaker 1: a very deep, again visceral reaction to whatever they were doing,
Speaker 1: you know, having no understanding of what it was or
Speaker 1: how it worked. Um, yeah, are you still that kind
Speaker 1: of instinctual player or because this is what scares people
Speaker 1: about jazz. It's incredibly complicated. It seems like endless scales
Speaker 1: is all that theory? Do you know all that stuff?
Speaker 1: You know some? Yeah? Yeah, and it never ends because
Speaker 1: the in not because I don't feel authorized to speak
Speaker 1: on behalf of the genre in anyway, because I would
Speaker 1: say I'm a jazz singer when I need to be,
Speaker 1: and I can play bass for the jazz musicians, but
Speaker 1: the center piece, like the center of what it is
Speaker 1: I do isn't really jazz because of that practice and
Speaker 1: devotion that is required. You don't think you have it,
Speaker 1: not in that way, not in that way as an instrumentalist,
Speaker 1: which is fine. It's cool because I can still support
Speaker 1: the instrumentalists who are in that devotional, devotional practice. But
Speaker 1: that's how you started. You were you were known as
Speaker 1: a jazz bassis, absolute best new artist I think, right right? Yeah,
Speaker 1: And still I wonder what the parallel isn't writing? It's
Speaker 1: like you can support, you can be a part of
Speaker 1: something without actually being a devotee of that craft. Well,
Speaker 1: most writing is all you mean writing music or writing,
Speaker 1: I mean writing word. So what do you know? Because
Speaker 1: if I go on YouTube, I see you playing with
Speaker 1: Herbie Hancock and check Korea. Yeah, what are they? What
Speaker 1: are you giving them? Then there's got to be more
Speaker 1: technically sophisticated players are at least more theoretically sophisticated players
Speaker 1: than you. You're doing this by instinct. What do they
Speaker 1: get when I asked you to come and play with me?
Speaker 1: What what am I getting? You're getting listening and lightspeed
Speaker 1: response and some a dance floor for your dance. I'm
Speaker 1: giving you a moving dance floor. And I have studied
Speaker 1: some of the theory, just to say partially, I like
Speaker 1: to rearticulate this because for any young aspiring instrumentalist listening,
Speaker 1: I want to make sure that I'm speaking that truth
Speaker 1: that to be a quote unquote jazz musician like, don't
Speaker 1: listen to me. Listen to Scott Colly or you know,
Speaker 1: Ben Williams, Christian McBride or Linda o or players who
Speaker 1: if you if you want to have a queue into
Speaker 1: the expression of the jazz pedagogy, listen to those bass players.
Speaker 1: I'm doing something that's valuable and beautiful in works and supports,
Speaker 1: but it's not really coming from that kind of devotional space.
Speaker 1: It's very intuitive and very much in the presence, very
Speaker 1: much something that evolves in relationship with players. You know, So, yes,
Speaker 1: I can play with her, but I can play with
Speaker 1: chick because I'm I'm becoming what is needed in that
Speaker 1: moment with my technical facility to you know, come as
Speaker 1: my voice, as my listening as my voice. It's almost
Speaker 1: like an active listening with players like that. So are they?
Speaker 1: Are they because you're a band leader as well. When
Speaker 1: you're playing with players like that, are they kind of
Speaker 1: setting the tone and then you're responding? Is it more
Speaker 1: call response with them? Yeah, it's it's more like, well
Speaker 1: with somebody like you know, Herbie Hancock or Jerry Allen.
Speaker 1: They want to have the conversation that can only happen
Speaker 1: with you in the room. It's not like, Okay, I
Speaker 1: hear these ten songs, you happen to be the one here,
Speaker 1: so yeah, come get in on this and make this
Speaker 1: work for me. Especially with Herbie, especially with Jerry, it's
Speaker 1: more like, oh, who are you? What do we sound
Speaker 1: like together? And in that space it might kind of
Speaker 1: be an advantage not be too tethered to a technical
Speaker 1: or historical or pedagogical approach to making the music, because
Speaker 1: then you're free to discover what's actually happening in real time,
Speaker 1: which might not sound like anything that that player did before.
Speaker 1: It's going to have their character ristic. But that is
Speaker 1: my superpower, you know, of being president, going like whoa
Speaker 1: what what is this? Actually? Right now? Let's make it
Speaker 1: and it won't probably happen again. And that was that,
Speaker 1: You know, do you have to do You have to
Speaker 1: make eye contact with a player. To do that, you
Speaker 1: have to see what he's doing just here? Really, could
Speaker 1: you do it blindfolded? Yeah? Of course really? Yeah, of course.
Speaker 1: I don't look. I don't look at the instrument I
Speaker 1: want to play. No, I don't mean your instrument. I
Speaker 1: mean I mean I mean the combination of like if
Speaker 1: if you're playing with you know Wayne Shorter here be
Speaker 1: hancocked there. Yeah, that's a that's a great day. I
Speaker 1: wish that would happen more. But you know, string quartets,
Speaker 1: the players kind of have to see each other, they
Speaker 1: have to see the cues. I'm wondering how important is
Speaker 1: that in when you're playing in a jazz combo. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking of I'm thinking of Wayne's quartet. They are
Speaker 1: very much connected with each other, looking at each other.
Speaker 1: But I am positive they could do everything they do
Speaker 1: blindfolded because they're they're co composing a scene. You know,
Speaker 1: It's like, I'm sure actors could have a perfectly potent
Speaker 1: and coherent improvised scene blindfolded because you're you're responding to
Speaker 1: the reality of emotional response. You're responding to what comes
Speaker 1: at you, and eventually a momentum of the scene is
Speaker 1: generated and that is propelling you forward as much as
Speaker 1: you're creating it as you go. You know, that mode
Speaker 1: of performance, co composition improvisation is like that. Okay, next
Speaker 1: time you're with Herbie Hancock, I want you to blindfold
Speaker 1: yourself and see see how it comes. I don't I
Speaker 1: wouldn't never ask him to do that, but I'll think
Speaker 1: I'll just I'll hold it in the space and see
Speaker 1: what happens if I don't look. I mean, I remember
Speaker 1: dancing tango a little bit when I was a teammate,
Speaker 1: and you know, there's certain fundamentals that you learn, and
Speaker 1: it's an improvisational dance form, right Obviously, when you're dancing
Speaker 1: with a phenomenal dancer, everything just kind of works, you know.
Speaker 1: And I remember that experience of being very inexperienced and
Speaker 1: getting on the dance floor and just be like, oh damn,
Speaker 1: I can do I'm good. Shoot everything. I'm twisting and
Speaker 1: turning and kicking all kinds of stuff, and then you
Speaker 1: go dance with the next partner and it's like fuck.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like a fumble, looks like a like
Speaker 1: a civil ware drawer without a divider, you know. So
Speaker 1: there's also something to be said for the potency of
Speaker 1: the master, you know that partially just by playing with
Speaker 1: somebody like that, the the immensity of their musicianship and
Speaker 1: ability to make everything work kind of heightens your own
Speaker 1: capacity and shows what is possible. We'll be back with
Speaker 1: more from Esperanza Spalding after the break. We're back with
Speaker 1: more from Esperanza Spalding. What's it like working with Wayne Shorter?
Speaker 1: You talked about his writing before, Ye, what's it like
Speaker 1: playing with him? We've actually only played a few times,
Speaker 1: and it felt like visiting another planet. It truly felt
Speaker 1: like we've been living on one musical planet your whole life,
Speaker 1: seeing different lands and territories and cities and towns and
Speaker 1: ruralities and municipalities, and then you step onto what you
Speaker 1: think is just another land. You know, music starts, Okay,
Speaker 1: here we are, and all of a sudden you recognize, like, no,
Speaker 1: all of this is different. All of this is extraterrestrial,
Speaker 1: all of this is expansive. All of this is just
Speaker 1: more and different and shaped like the Earth. And maybe
Speaker 1: the gravity is similar, but it's not. He is so
Speaker 1: incredibly adept at connecting seemingly disparit ideas in a room,
Speaker 1: in a conversation, and musically that is, it's like it
Speaker 1: feels like you have to start listening at light speed
Speaker 1: to be able to connect what just came over there
Speaker 1: with what's happening over there. That is nebulous. I apologize
Speaker 1: it's hard to describe it, but is it scary playing
Speaker 1: with someone like that? Yeah? Sure, yeah, very much. So, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And why is it scary? Why is it scary? What
Speaker 1: does scary? I mean in that context? Is it scary?
Speaker 1: It's scary in a sense of oh damn, can I
Speaker 1: can I hang? Can I help? Can I woo? Can
Speaker 1: I feel free? What is that of the most that
Speaker 1: I can bring into the space? Will it have a place?
Speaker 1: Will it work? You know? You know, it's like sitting
Speaker 1: at a table and a conversations already happening, and you're like,
Speaker 1: I don't know what anybody here is talking about, but
Speaker 1: I'm being asked to come and speak. So it's something
Speaker 1: about having the trust that your life is enough, that
Speaker 1: what you've lived endows you with insight and perspective and presence,
Speaker 1: and that the other people at the table actually want
Speaker 1: to talk with you. So it's not about I'm able
Speaker 1: to refer to the things that you all have studied
Speaker 1: and know. It's something about having the confidence that at
Speaker 1: any point in time we can find like a common
Speaker 1: space to converse. Do you always find do you always
Speaker 1: feel confident when you're playing with someone like that you
Speaker 1: can find it? You ever feel nervous, Like this guy's
Speaker 1: talk talking about something I can't really of course we
Speaker 1: don't we all. I mean hopefully that's how you know
Speaker 1: you're expanding and having new tastes and new experiences. You know.
Speaker 1: It's not always feel equipped like I'm gonna come in
Speaker 1: and slay. I don't mean that, but are there times
Speaker 1: you're playing with someone I'm gonna use Wayne Shorter and
Speaker 1: you just feel like, man, I'm just disappointing here. I'm
Speaker 1: not contributing. No, Well, listening is contributing. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: so much of the gift of somebody who's so full,
Speaker 1: like a Wayne Shorter, just hanging out with him at
Speaker 1: the house. I mean just just listening is becomes dialogue,
Speaker 1: you know, and becomes dynamic, um, because we we need
Speaker 1: to be heard too, you know. For all that poetry
Speaker 1: and wisdom and philosophy, philosophical playmaking that one can do,
Speaker 1: it's not fun when you're just by yourself in the house, right.
Speaker 1: I think he's really gonna and a musing himself. But
Speaker 1: um yeah, that's that's valuable. That's what I mean by
Speaker 1: being the moving dance floor. It is. It's valuable. It's valuable. Um.
Speaker 1: So a very different artist did you like and I'd
Speaker 1: like to know more about her influence is Joni Mitchell. Oh, Now,
Speaker 1: Joni Mitchell is interesting to me because she has she
Speaker 1: seems to have two audiences. Everybody likes everybody knows Big
Speaker 1: Yellow Taxi and both sides now and people love her
Speaker 1: and revere for being part of a generation. But jazz
Speaker 1: people really like her. What is it you're hearing in her?
Speaker 1: What inspires you? I mean, jazz people like creative seeking music.
Speaker 1: You know, in general, all the jazz people that I
Speaker 1: know don't just listen to jazz music. They we they
Speaker 1: listen to move that seems to be reching and finding
Speaker 1: new combinations of the sounds that we're all working with
Speaker 1: out here essentially, So what is it about her music
Speaker 1: that what are you hearing there? I think if I
Speaker 1: actually try to articulate it, it's going to be a lie.
Speaker 1: Because beyond the obvious that points that we all are
Speaker 1: drawn to, like the poetic imagery and the unexpected way
Speaker 1: that she illuminates a scene and brings us into a
Speaker 1: place in a space, and an emotional understanding of a
Speaker 1: person or a relationship, there's just some there's something magical
Speaker 1: and magnetic which doesn't tell you anything, but I the
Speaker 1: way where I feel the draw. I can't honestly articulate. Um.
Speaker 1: I think part of it is the attraction to somebody
Speaker 1: showing possibility that's so far beyond anything that's been revealed
Speaker 1: in that genre or mode of playing before, you know,
Speaker 1: as a quote unquote folk musician or as a poetter,
Speaker 1: as a lyricist. It's like, you know, watching I can't
Speaker 1: explain it. I should say, when I even said her name,
Speaker 1: you sort of, yeah, put your hand up to your
Speaker 1: heart like you're slightly stricken. And that's the that's the
Speaker 1: that's the Yeah, that's the mystery, you know, that's the mystery.
Speaker 1: You can hear strands of the sort of thing she
Speaker 1: does in I think particularly your the Emily album. Okay, cool,
Speaker 1: that's when I discover her music. Was that right? Okay?
Speaker 1: Have you ever met her? Yeah? For sure. I jammed
Speaker 1: at her house a few times, Okay this year last year.
Speaker 1: Telling that story now, well, I I say, I very
Speaker 1: surreal experience. Actually back up, tell us that story. How
Speaker 1: you how you ended up there? Who was there? Well,
Speaker 1: the first time that I went to her house, I
Speaker 1: went to her house because um we okay, I had
Speaker 1: to back up a step further. Last year, I moved
Speaker 1: to la for seven months to be near Wayne and
Speaker 1: to be on the ground moving forward the development this opera,
Speaker 1: because I felt like it had gotten stagnant somehow, you know,
Speaker 1: just the logistics of work, shopping in and getting it
Speaker 1: off of the page and out of the speculative into
Speaker 1: the real, and I thought I need to just go there.
Speaker 1: You know, Wayne was having some really intense health issues,
Speaker 1: and I wanted him to feel like this thing is
Speaker 1: really happening, like we're doing this, we're doing this. So
Speaker 1: that turned into some very inventive approaches to making workshops happen,
Speaker 1: Orchestral workshops happened, scene workshops happen. At a time when
Speaker 1: he couldn't physically write, he was suffering from a metabolic tremor,
Speaker 1: and so we had to figure out a way to
Speaker 1: get what he had written up into an orchestra. And
Speaker 1: I thought that the most invigorating thing for him would
Speaker 1: be to actually feel coming back at him what he
Speaker 1: had written, so that it would feel like an opera
Speaker 1: is really happening here. So we're doing those every week,
Speaker 1: every two weeks, and at some point it came up, well, Gosh,
Speaker 1: Joni heard that they're doing Joni Mitchell heard that you're
Speaker 1: doing this and wish there that she could see it.
Speaker 1: But you know, it's hard for her to leave the
Speaker 1: house with blah blah blah. And I don't know whose
Speaker 1: idea it was. I feel like it was her assistance.
Speaker 1: So why don't we have the rehearsal at at Jonie's house?
Speaker 1: So we did. We took us role in the opera,
Speaker 1: and I mean she wanted to hear it when was
Speaker 1: working on and thought it was cool. So she opened
Speaker 1: her home to us. So we brought a piano player
Speaker 1: and about five singers and a small little orchestra, probably
Speaker 1: eight players, and we crammed into her music room and
Speaker 1: she sat next to Wayne and I sat next to Wayne,
Speaker 1: and Frank Gary, who's working on the set, who will
Speaker 1: be making the sets, also came over. And it was
Speaker 1: it was just a surreal moment in time that I
Speaker 1: actually forgot about until you just said it, because it
Speaker 1: was so surreal. It didn't seem like a part of
Speaker 1: this plane, you know, because those I would say, those
Speaker 1: are two of my favorite creators of all time, you know,
Speaker 1: And yeah, a lot can be said about the moment. Partially,
Speaker 1: it was surreal because I was so um dissatisfied with
Speaker 1: the libretto at that particular moment, I was just cringing
Speaker 1: that like the master of words was there hearing my
Speaker 1: like unfinished words. It's so ridiculous, Um, but yeah, I was.
Speaker 1: I was biting my nails. You know for sure. The
Speaker 1: whole time was that the first time you'd met her? No,
Speaker 1: I met a few times before, but I didn't stick,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, because I was just drooling and you know,
Speaker 1: so this time not forming sentence. I was still dreaming,
Speaker 1: drooling and forming sentences. But she said she liked my
Speaker 1: my life force suit and that as life force it does,
Speaker 1: and that really looked at my spirits. Yeah, that did
Speaker 1: you design that? Of course? Yeah. I wanted to, um,
Speaker 1: stay in touch with the Yeah, the focal point of
Speaker 1: my work. I'm seeking ways to translate the Pope. I'm
Speaker 1: seeking ways to bring us into resonance with our unique
Speaker 1: and abundant life force energy. And I also wanted a
Speaker 1: break from worrying about what to wear at events or
Speaker 1: just in the street or anywhere. And I knew that
Speaker 1: it was going to be a year of hard work,
Speaker 1: so I made a work suit for myself. I just
Speaker 1: said so that's all you wear. Yeah, that's all I wear.
Speaker 1: How many of those do you have? Eleven twelve? You're
Speaker 1: like a superhero. You just get in the constant every day.
Speaker 1: That's the that's the goal. That's the goal. Be a superhero. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: my version of it be a super me. You know. Um,
Speaker 1: so what did you? I'm interested? What did Jone? I've
Speaker 1: never met Johnny Mitchell? Oh you will, I would love to. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're both Canadian after all. Uh huh? Facts? What did
Speaker 1: she say to you when when she heard what you
Speaker 1: were doing? Mom? I don't remember. She said all kinds
Speaker 1: of things. It was it was out of body. It
Speaker 1: was out of body. But later I did play some
Speaker 1: jam sessions that I got to play bass for her,
Speaker 1: and I got to play an arrangement for her of
Speaker 1: the Wolf that lives in Lindsay and she dug that,
Speaker 1: so did she? Was she singing when you were playing? No,
Speaker 1: I just perform. Yeah, when I played for her when
Speaker 1: she was sinking. I mean it's like living room, like
Speaker 1: a session like this. You know, she invites over musicians
Speaker 1: and we play the song she wants to sing, and
Speaker 1: people play songs that she wants to hear. Or songs
Speaker 1: that they are working on. Like, so what you talked
Speaker 1: about playing with with her? Be Hancock, What what's it
Speaker 1: like playing with Joni Mitchell. Well, it's the deepest listening
Speaker 1: you've ever done in your life. She's the deepest listening
Speaker 1: ever because it's not about like, oh, I'm gonna play
Speaker 1: with Jonie. I. I'm listening for what she's doing in
Speaker 1: that moment and where her voice is going, and I
Speaker 1: want to offer the the tones, the rhythms that make
Speaker 1: it feel good for her to sing at that moment.
Speaker 1: You know, how did it go? It was perfect? It's perfect.
Speaker 1: She sang lever Man and a couple of other tunes,
Speaker 1: had the old song lever Man. Yeah, okay, yeah, she
Speaker 1: loves you know, she loves classics standing. She had trouble
Speaker 1: for a long time finding bass player. She always sad
Speaker 1: bass players didn't understand her music. M because you did,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know, but hm, that's interesting.
Speaker 1: It did okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll be back with
Speaker 1: the more Bruce's conversation with Esperanza Spalding after a quick
Speaker 1: break back, but before we hear the rest of Bruce's
Speaker 1: interview with Esperanza Let's listen to a track offer album,
Speaker 1: Emily's Devolution, which we'll talk a bit more about in
Speaker 1: a second. First, here's the song change Us. You said
Speaker 1: you weren't that you weren't the prodigy, and you weren't
Speaker 1: even now you describe yourself as not you don't feel
Speaker 1: like you're fully a part of the kind of jazz
Speaker 1: world you're not. But it's it's. Um, I was just
Speaker 1: gonna say, you went to Berkeley, which is like the
Speaker 1: m I T of jazz. Oh god, it's not bless
Speaker 1: it's heart. It's it's an incredible convening space for anybody
Speaker 1: passionate about pursuing a career music. It is it truly, truly, truly,
Speaker 1: truly is. But yeah, it's it's like those terms that
Speaker 1: nomenclates or of what the music is. I think that
Speaker 1: the term refers to a very specific kind of devotion.
Speaker 1: So what I'm saying, I'm not a quote unquot jazz musician.
Speaker 1: It's just out of respect for for that modality of devotion.
Speaker 1: I'm devoted to making and to creating, and that's that's
Speaker 1: its own thing. It's just it's okay with me that
Speaker 1: I'm that I'm not, you know, an emissary of that
Speaker 1: devotional practice. And and I think it's something also about
Speaker 1: wanting to get out from under the signifier of being
Speaker 1: a jazz musician, because I feel like in some ways
Speaker 1: I use that or it was used to promote me
Speaker 1: as a creator. And now, out of respect for what
Speaker 1: the devotional practice is, I want to I want to
Speaker 1: make sure that it were clear about what's what you know? Okay,
Speaker 1: But because you, I mean, you do a lot of
Speaker 1: different kinds of music. I mean re listening to Emily,
Speaker 1: which was your album before this one, I think, well,
Speaker 1: the album before this one you can't get because it
Speaker 1: was about that. Yeah, but Emily was like a really
Speaker 1: that was a really heavy I wish our co host
Speaker 1: Rick Rubin was here because he's an old heavy metal guy.
Speaker 1: He would like guitar solos. But what were you listening
Speaker 1: to when you did that album? Damn? I was listening
Speaker 1: to Hm I a lot of David Bowie, a lot
Speaker 1: of Jimi Hendrix. Um Cream, not a lot of cream,
Speaker 1: but listening to Cream a little bit. I had seen
Speaker 1: that documentary about Ginger Baker Um and you worked with
Speaker 1: Tony Visconti, who produced a lot of Bowie, a lot
Speaker 1: of t Rex, Yeah, got a lot of that good
Speaker 1: vibe in it. Yeah. Yeah. It's like sonically the world
Speaker 1: that Emily needed to do. What she came to do
Speaker 1: had those elements that you described. It was loud, and
Speaker 1: it generated movement, and it was about a power trio
Speaker 1: and it was about an expression of power and breaking
Speaker 1: out of whatever had been practiced and whatever had become familiar,
Speaker 1: whatever had become fixed identity. So that's what Emily needed
Speaker 1: to burst into existence. And Emily was a real character,
Speaker 1: did you It's the lava of myself. It was the
Speaker 1: metal character of me. It was also maybe more than
Speaker 1: your other work about the songs themselves. You've written a
Speaker 1: lot of songs, but we tend to think of jazz
Speaker 1: as kind of a flow, true, and this was more
Speaker 1: like a song like change us. Oh my gosh, that's right.
Speaker 1: There's no there's no reason that wouldn't be a top
Speaker 1: forty hit. I know that's Did you want it to
Speaker 1: be a top forty hit? I mean I didn't. I
Speaker 1: didn't want it to not be a top forty hit.
Speaker 1: But um, that hasn't hmm, I mean damn. I asked
Speaker 1: Emily what she wanted to do, and those are the
Speaker 1: songs that came out. And I didn't ask too many questions,
Speaker 1: you know, there wasn't a lot of well what does
Speaker 1: what does it? What should the influences be in this?
Speaker 1: Like what do we want to happen with this song?
Speaker 1: It was just like, here's the instruction manual from Emily,
Speaker 1: let's build it and see what we get and we'll
Speaker 1: morph it from there. You like the instruction manuals. I
Speaker 1: do like the instruction manuals. I trust that because you
Speaker 1: also did an album where you said, he was on
Speaker 1: Facebook Live, We're going to do it in seventy seven hours, yeah,
Speaker 1: and you did the whole thing yeah, and everybody could watch. Well,
Speaker 1: that offering performance was the performance of the act of creation.
Speaker 1: So how do you make an album of creation? They
Speaker 1: make an album of the creation process. That was the
Speaker 1: way that we figured out that we could capture or
Speaker 1: share my favorite part of making things, which is that
Speaker 1: moment where you get the hit, you think of the thing,
Speaker 1: and then you forge it. That process of forging it
Speaker 1: into the thing was the focal point of that project
Speaker 1: as an act of improvisation. Actually, it's like a I
Speaker 1: quote weighing a lot. One of my favorite quotes as
Speaker 1: he says, composition is improvisation slowed down, and improvisation is
Speaker 1: composition sped up. And that's what that project was. Have
Speaker 1: you gone back to watch that after you've done? Thank you? No? No, No,
Speaker 1: I haven't. Why not, Well, it's it already happened, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like it already. It was a it was a
Speaker 1: thing that was all in a moment. It's like a
Speaker 1: kiss or a or a dance on a bridge that
Speaker 1: you didn't expect with a stranger. It happened, and the
Speaker 1: magic of it was that it was happening in real time,
Speaker 1: and then it wasn't going to happen again, and that
Speaker 1: everybody with us was with us in that moment, at
Speaker 1: that particular spot on the continuum of eternity. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't. I don't have any need to
Speaker 1: go back and look at it. What I compared to
Speaker 1: when I was watching clips of it was let it be,
Speaker 1: which is that's what the Beatles tried to do. They
Speaker 1: tried to show people how they were making an album.
Speaker 1: Oh cool. That's why I'm wondering if you'd sort of
Speaker 1: learned something about how you made music if you did
Speaker 1: that well. Part of the I guess impetus for opening
Speaker 1: up that process was to share the the ugly moments
Speaker 1: and the scary moments, and the risk and the yeah,
Speaker 1: the imperfections that go into making anything beautiful. So to
Speaker 1: let it be seen that most of the process of
Speaker 1: making the song was working with something that didn't really work,
Speaker 1: but you can hear how a seed of that then
Speaker 1: led to what it became. And I felt like that
Speaker 1: was something worth sharing in a moment where so much
Speaker 1: of what we interface with is polished and complete and
Speaker 1: kind of seems like it just like both dropped down
Speaker 1: glistening from the heavens. I was excited to share who
Speaker 1: I actually am, who we all actually are as creators,
Speaker 1: that that's most of who we are. The majority of
Speaker 1: what makes us performers and artists and creators is that process.
Speaker 1: The finished thing is only like the last one hundredth
Speaker 1: of the whole being, you know, But most artists they
Speaker 1: want to protected other nine nine. They don't want that
Speaker 1: out because that's the ugly part. So why do you
Speaker 1: want that out? I like that part. I wanted to
Speaker 1: celebrate that part, and you know, that's my element also
Speaker 1: the same way that performers get on stage and show
Speaker 1: their best stuff. They show like the best that they
Speaker 1: have to give to me. Me creating is my best stuff.
Speaker 1: That's why I wanted to share that as the performance,
Speaker 1: you know, which is kind of a jazz idea. I mean,
Speaker 1: probably more than more than pop. When did the singing
Speaker 1: start for you? I'm I'm you know, I was just thinking.
Speaker 1: I was like, is that really matter? I mean, probably
Speaker 1: eight or nine or ten. I feel like maybe we
Speaker 1: could talk about I don't know what's what's brewing now.
Speaker 1: I mean sinking started when I was out in the world,
Speaker 1: probably fifteen. And I feel like this particular moment in
Speaker 1: my life as a creator, I'm less interested in, like
Speaker 1: the origin, and I'm more interested in now as an
Speaker 1: origin point, you know. Okay, well let me reframe it.
Speaker 1: I'm interested in I'm interested in what's happened because I
Speaker 1: went back and read some early reviews and they'd say, oh,
Speaker 1: her slender voice as she sings along, And then you
Speaker 1: listen to these albums and you're like, no, that's like
Speaker 1: a powerhouse. Okay, I don't really think about my voice.
Speaker 1: I have to confess it's um, I really I practice,
Speaker 1: you know. I try to sing to build. I studied
Speaker 1: to sit to build capacity and different timbres and all that.
Speaker 1: But do you sing to compose? I do sing to compose.
Speaker 1: So you're working on this opera, Oh, yes, thank you,
Speaker 1: segu Are you singing those parts? Are you? I will
Speaker 1: sing in some capacity in this operation? No, I don't
Speaker 1: mean in the final I don't mean in the final product.
Speaker 1: I mean when you're working on it. Are you? Are
Speaker 1: you singing in your head? Are you singing out loud?
Speaker 1: Sometimes this process of igan opera is upside down inside
Speaker 1: out from how operas are usually mate. Because it took
Speaker 1: me so long to get the liberto written that Wayne
Speaker 1: already wrote all the music. So now we're reckoning with
Speaker 1: this incredible body of work, which is the music that
Speaker 1: he wrote sort of in these three acts already, and
Speaker 1: drawing story and language out from that. So in that case,
Speaker 1: sometimes I sing, but I'm actually trying to hear what
Speaker 1: an operatic voice would do with some of these lines.
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of speaking because some of the passages,
Speaker 1: the music functions as the environment and they're having a
Speaker 1: conversation recitative it's called, or sometimes just spoken through thinking
Speaker 1: about or further unpackaging that invitation to write what you
Speaker 1: wish for the opera seeks to interrupt the repetition of
Speaker 1: the same story being played out that's played out in
Speaker 1: this original myth. And I'm looking for a way that
Speaker 1: as a writer, I can even interrupt the way that
Speaker 1: the endings are usually created. Um, what's the colemanth of Ifagenia?
Speaker 1: So she's the one who gets her throat slit. Well,
Speaker 1: she's sacrificed so that the winds will return, and that
Speaker 1: Agamemnon and his brother and the fleet they've assembled to
Speaker 1: go recapture Helen can sail across the ocean to troy Um.
Speaker 1: And so it's the story before the Trojan horse story
Speaker 1: that we all know. Um. And by this process of
Speaker 1: making the opera has unlocked a question about who gets
Speaker 1: to tell the story, even me as a as a
Speaker 1: woman in the twenty first century, and it's a time
Speaker 1: when voices that have often been in the background now
Speaker 1: get to come up and and direct new narratives, new
Speaker 1: speculative narratives. We get to bring to the to the
Speaker 1: public arena, our stories that have been silenced for so long,
Speaker 1: even in the space I'm asking the question, how do
Speaker 1: we how do I how do we? How do I
Speaker 1: break the cycle of the tyranny of the individual voice
Speaker 1: of the storyteller? And I wonder what becomes possible in
Speaker 1: the telling of this story when figures, people, characters who
Speaker 1: are often scripted into storytelling opera singers or musicians or actors.
Speaker 1: What becomes possible when their voice is activated in the
Speaker 1: actual design of the story, in the telling of the story.
Speaker 1: That is really really challenging to do. It's beyond my
Speaker 1: capacity right now, but that's that's what we're reaching for.
Speaker 1: Who's telling the story now? Well, I am I mean
Speaker 1: and Euripides told it, and it's it's part of the odyssey,
Speaker 1: and it was surely a myth that had been passed
Speaker 1: on for generations before it got written down. But I am,
Speaker 1: I am really curious right now what happens when the
Speaker 1: ending isn't prescribed and instead of barreling towards what we've
Speaker 1: been told must happen, we say, no, what happens if
Speaker 1: we leave space for an unknown ending to emerge from us?
Speaker 1: I guess co creating in real time so that the
Speaker 1: sort that is the jazz Ethos isn't it. We're going
Speaker 1: to substitute chords, We're going to change it well, and
Speaker 1: all of those are just methods for approaching life in
Speaker 1: real time and improvising in response to what's actually happening.
Speaker 1: You know. It's not about like, oh, I'm going to
Speaker 1: change the chord because I'm a jazz musician. It's about
Speaker 1: while I have I have access to enough material that
Speaker 1: I can respond to what's actually happening from a large
Speaker 1: batch of possibility. I'm not I'm not fixed by what
Speaker 1: I've practiced. I'm not fixed by what I've learned is
Speaker 1: supposed to happen next. Oh that's it. Yeah, I'm not.
Speaker 1: I am not limited to what I've learned is supposed
Speaker 1: to happen next. That's the key to how how I
Speaker 1: want to break open the ending of this opera. Yes, right,
Speaker 1: I'm glad we're talking about this. That seems like a
Speaker 1: perfect place to stop. Yeah, yeah, amazing. All right, Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. Thanks es Bronze Spaulding for taking
Speaker 1: Tom away from cracking the story structure of our upcoming
Speaker 1: opera to talk with Bruce. You can hear all of
Speaker 1: our favorite Es Bronze is Spaulding songs by checking out
Speaker 1: the playlist for this episode at broken record podcast dot com.
Speaker 1: Broken Record is producing help from Jason Gambrel, Mia Lobelle,
Speaker 1: and Leah Rose for pushing industries our theme music spect
Speaker 1: Kenny Beats, I'm justin Richmond. Thanks for listening.