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Speaker 1: A media. Hi everyone, it's President's Day today. Cool anyway,

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Speaker 1: that means that we are giving you a rerunt and

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Speaker 1: the rerun that I wanted to air today was the

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Speaker 1: first series that I ever made for iHeart, or indeed

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Speaker 1: the first series I ever made for anyone. It's called

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Speaker 1: Myanma Printing the Revolution, and if you've heard it before,

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Speaker 1: you know what it's about. If you haven't, this takes

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Speaker 1: us through the early days of the Mianma Revolution, from

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Speaker 1: the coup to people taking to the mountains and fighting.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to share this because it's been a couple

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Speaker 1: of years since we first made it, and I think

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Speaker 1: at a time when the whole world is worried about

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Speaker 1: the way politics are going and the way that states

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Speaker 1: are behaving, we can learn a lot from the people

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Speaker 1: of Meanma. I don't think it matters where you are.

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Speaker 1: There's something that you can take from this, from the

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Speaker 1: way that these people stayed in the street and the

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Speaker 1: way that they were willing to work together to learn

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Speaker 1: from one another and to become better people as they

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Speaker 1: struggled to make their world better. It's a long series,

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Speaker 1: spoken to many of the people who are in it

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Speaker 1: this week, most of them are fine, they're doing well,

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Speaker 1: but you will hear about somewhat dying at the end

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Speaker 1: of this. This is war like, this is a thing

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Speaker 1: that happens in war, but I wanted to give a

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Speaker 1: content warning for that such if anybody was upset by it,

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Speaker 1: they could turn off. It just comes at the end

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Speaker 1: of the final episode. If you've not heard this before,

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Speaker 1: I hope you'll take the time to listen. We worked

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Speaker 1: very very hard on it and it's very important to me.

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Speaker 2: Hey everyone, I'm Robert Evans and this is Me and

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Speaker 2: Mar printing the Revolutions. It could happen here special mini series,

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Speaker 2: an in depth documentary investigation with me and journalist James Stout.

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Speaker 2: Over the next four days, you're going to learn about

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Speaker 2: the gin Z militias of the Me and Mar Civil War,

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Speaker 2: three D printed weapons, and a bunch of other really

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Speaker 2: fascinating stuff. Besides, so, without any further ado, here's James.

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Speaker 1: Ever since the first person built the first fence, took

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Speaker 1: land from everybody and to themselves, property rights and violence

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Speaker 1: have gone hand in hand. With property grew the state,

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Speaker 1: and with the state came the police. Today, most of

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Speaker 1: us grew up under the control of states and they're

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Speaker 1: so ubiquitous that their violence is often overlooked until a

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Speaker 1: particularly egregious incident occurs. But all states, even the most benign,

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Speaker 1: rest on a monopoly on violence. State to the entities

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Speaker 1: that imposed laws on a given area, and if you

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Speaker 1: break those laws, state can beat you up, lock you up,

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Speaker 1: or shoot you up. When the state loses the monopoly

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Speaker 1: on violence, it ceases to be able to enforce its laws,

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Speaker 1: charges taxes, and enforce its will on the people at rules.

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Speaker 1: We've seen this all over the world, from the Democratic

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Speaker 1: Republic of Congo to briefly downtown Seattle. Our state in

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Speaker 1: the USA speaks a language of rights and liberties. When

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Speaker 1: we want to appeal to the state, we tend to

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Speaker 1: use that language, even though our state, as we saw

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, is backed by plenty of violence, as

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Speaker 1: much as any other, goes a long way to camouflage

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Speaker 1: that violence. Some states are a bit more mask off.

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Speaker 1: They speak to their citizens more or less exclusively through violence,

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Speaker 1: and when citizens need to respond to that state, they

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Speaker 1: respond to the language it uses to speak to them.

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Speaker 1: That's how a teenager from yangon Meh and Mar ended

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Speaker 1: up on Reddit in summer of twenty twenty one asking

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Speaker 1: strangers have to use a three D printer and computer

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Speaker 1: to make a rifle. Me and Ma isn't a country

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Speaker 1: that is on the radar for most of the US.

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Speaker 1: If it is at all, it's probably because of State

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Speaker 1: Councilor and Foreign Minister ensign Suchi. She managed perhaps the

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Speaker 1: history's fastest pivot from Nobel Peace Prize winner to head

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Speaker 1: of a government accused of genocide. But Tsuki is in

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Speaker 1: jail now, and the Rahingia, the Muslim ethnic group that

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Speaker 1: the military attempted to eliminate from the east of the

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Speaker 1: country under her rule, are just one of many ethnic

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Speaker 1: and political groups. They're in open armed conflict with the

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Speaker 1: military who now hold control of the government of me

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Speaker 1: and Ma, known locally as a tatmodor the military's whose power.

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Speaker 1: In early twenty twenty one, you might have seen a

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Speaker 1: video of a woman doing an aerobics workout as the

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Speaker 1: vehicles rolled in behind her to seize power. Ever since

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Speaker 1: that day, they've been committing crimes against humanity all over

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Speaker 1: the country. Mia Mah has a longer history of dictatorship

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Speaker 1: than democracy. The British East India Company occupied the area

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Speaker 1: that now represents the country in the nineteenth century. As always,

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Speaker 1: they talked about civilizing missions and freedoms, but in practice

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Speaker 1: the occupation was extractive and only benefited the Anglo Burmese

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Speaker 1: and a few Indian civil servants. They bought with them often,

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Speaker 1: but this month led to resistance that manifested itself in

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Speaker 1: hunger strikes and everyday acts of disobedience, small ways of

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Speaker 1: saying no. In a few instances, it became open an

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Speaker 1: unbrest build into the streets. The country became a major

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Speaker 1: battleground during the Second World War, with Japan evading and

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Speaker 1: seizing the country before Allied forces took it back in

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Speaker 1: a fierce campaign in nineteen forty four. As many as

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Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty thousand Japanese troops died. Burmese people

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Speaker 1: fought on both sides. Ag San Agsan Suchi's father demanded

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Speaker 1: that Britain grant him and his fellow Burmese people independence

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Speaker 1: if they fought for the Allies. The British refused. Ansan

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Speaker 1: then went first to China and eventually Japan for support,

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Speaker 1: and eventually he fought against the British with his Burmer

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Speaker 1: Independence Army, but after two years of occupation, Agsian and

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Speaker 1: his comrade changed sides under a broad alliance called the

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Speaker 1: Anti Fascist Organization. They turned on the Japanese and they

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Speaker 1: once again took up arms to liberate their country. On

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Speaker 1: the fourth of January nineteen forty seven, Burma became an

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Speaker 1: independent republic. The new republic's territory combined three British territories

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Speaker 1: and over one hundred distinct ethnic groups. For the next

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Speaker 1: fourteen years, these groups struggled to find a democratic Burma

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Speaker 1: and an identity for themselves within it. Mostly they failed.

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Speaker 1: The period was characterized by the Chinese Civil War, spilling

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Speaker 1: it to Burma ethnic armed insurgencies and repeated to Ma

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Speaker 1: for a federal republic with a weak central government. In

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two, the military a rate at new demands

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Speaker 1: for a federal republic stage to coup. Burmer spent the

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Speaker 1: next twenty two years under the military rule of a council,

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Speaker 1: pursuing what they called the Burmese Way to socialism. Burmer's

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Speaker 1: planned economy left it largely isolated from the rest of

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Speaker 1: the world. At home, the press was censored, and a

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Speaker 1: type of nationalism that combined nominal socialism and Burmer ethnic

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Speaker 1: identity became the official state ideology. During this period, Burmer

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Speaker 1: became one of the world's poorest countries. Sporadic protests were

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Speaker 1: met with overwhelming force, and the eighth of August nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty eight, an uprising began. It started among his students

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Speaker 1: in Yangon, it took real quickly around the country. The

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Speaker 1: so called eight eight eight eight Uprising because of the date,

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Speaker 1: began with the general strike and huge non violent protests.

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Speaker 1: These were met with gunfire. Protesters fought back with molotov

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Speaker 1: cocktails and rocks. The military fired into hospitals, and by

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Speaker 1: September eighteenth they'd launched a coup to take the country

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Speaker 1: from a one party state back to a military dictatorship.

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Speaker 1: Through in these protests, Angsan Suki, the daughter of independence

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Speaker 1: here at Anksan, emerged as a national figurehead, especially in

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Speaker 1: the west. Amitov Ghusch, the Indian writer, wrote the following

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Speaker 1: about a eight eight eight across Burma. People poured out

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Speaker 1: in thousands to join the protests, not just students, but

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Speaker 1: also teachers, monks, children, professionals, and trade unionists of every shape.

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Speaker 1: It was on this day, too, that the Hunter made

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Speaker 1: its first determined attempt at repression. Soldiers opened fire on

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Speaker 1: the demonstrators and hundreds of unarmed marchers were killed. The

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Speaker 1: killings continued for a week, but still the demonstrators continued

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Speaker 1: to flood the streets. After the uprising had been suppressed,

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Speaker 1: multi party elections were later held, while the new National

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Speaker 1: League for Democracy party of Angsang shu Ki won the

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Speaker 1: most votes. The Hunter refused to see power. Protests continued

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Speaker 1: off and on for decades, with the two thousand and

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Speaker 1: seven Saffron Revolution, which the government violently cracked down on monks,

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Speaker 1: resulting in the most international condemnation. Following the Saffron Revolution,

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Speaker 1: the government's isolationism hindering aid After extensive cyclone damage in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, the military government finally implemented the

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Speaker 1: Roadmap to discipline flourishing democracy that had developed in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety three. If you're wondering about the name of the country,

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Speaker 1: this officially changed in nineteen eighty nine as well, but

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Speaker 1: like much of the nation's history, a grand proclamation from

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Speaker 1: the government didn't mean much on the ground. Both words

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Speaker 1: derived from Buranma, a name that the majority ethnic group

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Speaker 1: who we're calling Berman here used for themselves. Many opposition

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Speaker 1: groups still use Burma instead of Mienma. It's another small

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Speaker 1: way of saying no to the military's attempt to control

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Speaker 1: every aspect of their lives.

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Speaker 3: Finally, on the eighteenth of September, the army took to

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Speaker 3: the streets and the coup, led by Chief of Stamp

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Speaker 3: General Sumoon. The next day the killings began again. The

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Speaker 3: army later described these people as lutus.

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Speaker 2: It was not until twenty eleven that the military junta

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Speaker 2: finally stepped down and passed on power to the Union,

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Speaker 2: Solidarity and Development Party in an election that was widely

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Speaker 2: seen as fraudulent. A year later, long San sou Chi

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Speaker 2: was released, and by twenty fifteen her National League for

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Speaker 2: Democracy won an absolute majority. While she was barred from

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Speaker 2: holding the presidential office, she took on the role of

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Speaker 2: State councilor, and Mienmar entered a period of liberalization, which,

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Speaker 2: although never the federal democracy promised when the country gained

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Speaker 2: its independence in nineteen forty seven, allowed for significant freedoms

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Speaker 2: of communication and speech, especially for the Burman majority ethnic group.

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Speaker 2: Not everyone was reconciled to the change. Many of Myanmars

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Speaker 2: one hundred and thirty five ethnic groups feel marginalized by

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Speaker 2: the state, which tends to be dominated by the Burman ethnicity.

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Speaker 2: Some of these groups have armed insurgeon wings, often more

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Speaker 2: than one per ethnic group, as they disagree on politics

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Speaker 2: or religion. These groups have fought various Burmese governments since

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Speaker 2: the nineteen forties, but many of them reached a ceasefire

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Speaker 2: with the government as the country passed from military to

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Speaker 2: civilian rule. One group, however, saw a huge uptick in violence.

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Speaker 2: The Rohingya ethnic group have been persecuted by Buddhist nationals

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Speaker 2: since the nineteen seventies, but the campaign against them increased

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Speaker 2: in violence and scale in twenty sixteen, when the Tatmadab

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Speaker 2: began a huge crackdown against Rohinga people in Rakin's State.

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Speaker 2: The persecution began in response to attacks by the Arkan

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Speaker 2: Rohinga Salvation Army on Burmese border outposts, but the campaign

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Speaker 2: that followed had nothing to do with a small insurgent

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Speaker 2: group and a lot to do with the desire of

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Speaker 2: the Totmadaw to destroy or drive out all Rohinka people,

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Speaker 2: who they claim are undocumented migrants from Bangladesh and not

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Speaker 2: citizens of Myanmar. While the world praised Suki her government

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Speaker 2: looked the other way as the military carried out a

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Speaker 2: genocide that displaced over a million people and killed tens

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Speaker 2: of thousands. It was in the context of growing international

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Speaker 2: condemnation of the genocide that Mianmar went to the polls

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Speaker 2: in November of twenty twenty. The November twenty twenty election

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Speaker 2: was only the nation's second since the official end of

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Speaker 2: military rule. On Sansuchi's National League for Democracy won a

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Speaker 2: resounding victory. The military backed Union Solidarity and Development Party

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Speaker 2: holds twenty five percent of seats under a constitution that

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Speaker 2: SUCHI wanted to change. It didn't take defeat well. The

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Speaker 2: election was neither perfectly free nor fair. The Rohinga have

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Speaker 2: been almost wholly disenfranchised. The government claims they are illegal

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Speaker 2: immigrants from Bangladesh and thus unable to vote. Areas with

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Speaker 2: ethnic armed organ as if which opposed the government often

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Speaker 2: had poles canceled and internet cut off. According to Human

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Speaker 2: Rights Watch, The Carter Center estimates that one point four

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Speaker 2: million citizens couldn't vote. The one opposition party that was

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Speaker 2: certainly not short changed was the military's. However, it was

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Speaker 2: the Union Solidarity and Development Party USDP, which had been

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Speaker 2: calling for election delays due to COVID before poles opened.

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Speaker 2: Once the elections concluded, they immediately began questioning the results.

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Speaker 2: They continued to attempt to undermine the vote for months

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Speaker 2: before they resorted to force on the first to February

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, the day before the newly elected legislators

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Speaker 2: were due to be sworn in. The world largely ignored

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Speaker 2: the situation, apart from the one viral video where a

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Speaker 2: masked fitness instructor dances in the foreground as APC's roll

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Speaker 2: through a roadblock and into the parliament complex behind her.

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Speaker 2: Ensang su Chi was arrested, charged with breaching COVID nineteen

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Speaker 2: restrictions and illegally importing a walkie talkie, and General min

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Speaker 2: Angkhlang was installed at the head of a military hojna

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Speaker 2: to If this sounds a little like a stop to

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Speaker 2: Steel fantasy, that's because it is eerily similar to one.

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Speaker 2: Meanmar's democracy is not what academics call a consolidated one,

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Speaker 2: which is to say that democracy has never been the

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Speaker 2: only game in town there, but the United States seems

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Speaker 2: to be rapidly deconsolidating its own democracy. The allegations of

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Speaker 2: election fraud in Meanmar were no more credible than those

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Speaker 2: in Arizona. However, the military's tradition of political engagement there

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Speaker 2: removed many of the barriers in between electoral defeat and

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Speaker 2: the death of a short lived democracy. Within twenty four

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Speaker 2: hours of the coup, the people of Myanmar had fought back.

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Speaker 2: Healthcare workers and civil servants were on strike by February third,

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Speaker 2: and a boycott of junta owned businesses had begun. Protests

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Speaker 2: began with a handful of people. The memories of massacres

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Speaker 2: of pro democracy protesters in the nineteen eighties kept many away,

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Speaker 2: but a younger generation who had grown up with relative liberty,

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Speaker 2: internet access and basic freedoms had not seen blood in

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Speaker 2: the streets like their parents. They had seen activists in

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Speaker 2: Hong Kong, the USA, and Ukraine on violent state APPARATUSUS,

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Speaker 2: and they'd often seen them win.

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Speaker 1: By the sixth of February, twenty thousand people in the

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Speaker 1: streets of Yangon, the largest city, and the internet was

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Speaker 1: shut down nationwide. Protests began peacefully, with mimeable signs like

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Speaker 1: my eggs is bad, but the military is worse and

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Speaker 1: we are protesting peacefully. But with the WAP capitalized so

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Speaker 1: it said whap. These signs were designed by a generation

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Speaker 1: of kids who grew up with access to the Internet

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Speaker 1: to attract international attention. Despite the ban, they used VPNs

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Speaker 1: to show imagury to their struggle. One sign read I've

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Speaker 1: messed with the wrong generation. Now we'll never be allowed

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Speaker 1: to ruin our own lives. The Tatmador showed its cards

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Speaker 1: pretty quickly. Police began the suppression with sling shots and clubs,

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Speaker 1: then tear gas and flashbrang and quickly they moved to

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Speaker 1: rifles and rocket the pel grenades. By the ninth of February,

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Speaker 1: maya thway thway, heine, a twenty year old woman have

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Speaker 1: been shot in the street.

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Speaker 4: What did you.

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Speaker 5: Soon?

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Speaker 1: There's young protesters to switch signs for shields. By mid

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Speaker 1: March and I'm forties day, one hundred and forteen civilians

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Speaker 1: were killed in a single day, including sixty five in

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Speaker 1: Yangon who were kettled by police, surrounded net shot. Quickly,

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Speaker 1: shield walls were set up. Medics identified themselves in the

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Speaker 1: protest movement, and hard hats and goggles were distributed, but

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Speaker 1: this didn't tip the balance of power in their favor.

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Speaker 1: So Orlin, a former student union leader, was there from

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Speaker 1: the start. In a text message, he told me I

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Speaker 1: did not miss a single day as a member of

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Speaker 1: the Caya State National Strike Committee. I later became more

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Speaker 1: involved in anti authoritarian protests. In the early protests, you

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Speaker 1: see him in photos walking at the front of the

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Speaker 1: group carrying flags and banners with his student ID card

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Speaker 1: on a lanyard around his neck. But by March he's

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Speaker 1: wearing a black shirt, goggles and a hard construction hat. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: the National League for Democracy politicians who had escaped attention

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Speaker 1: joined other parties and set up a National Unity Government

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Speaker 1: in April. The National Unity Government contained members of the

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Speaker 1: National League for Democracy, but significantly, a Rahindio activist was

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Speaker 1: appointed an advisor in the Ministry of Human Rights, and

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Speaker 1: the National Unity Government has announced it would for the

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Speaker 1: first time accept the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court

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Speaker 1: with respect to all international crimes committed in me and

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Speaker 1: Mah since two thousand and two. This would include the

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Speaker 1: Rhinga genocide. By May, both the National Unity Government and

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Speaker 1: Zwelin had realized that no amount of non violent protests

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Speaker 1: was going to this lodge regime that was happy to

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Speaker 1: gun down kids in the street. So on the fifth

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Speaker 1: of May, he left for the jungle. That same day,

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Speaker 1: the National Unity government announced the formation of the People's

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Speaker 1: Defense Force or PDF. Within a month, eight hundred soldiers

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Speaker 1: has it affected to these pro democracy guerrilla units. Many

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Speaker 1: bought their guns with them, but Twa didn't join the PDF. Instead,

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Speaker 1: he joined one of ME and R's many ethnic armed

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Speaker 1: organizations groups opposed to a central state and its domination

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Speaker 1: by the Burman ethnicity. To understand these groups, you need

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Speaker 1: to understand that ME andm R is composed of dozens,

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Speaker 1: not hundreds, of ethnic groups, but that the Burman, who

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Speaker 1: make up about two thirds of the population, have always

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Speaker 1: controlled the state and used it as a tool in

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Speaker 1: furthering their interest. Some of these groups, like the Kurrent

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Speaker 1: National Liberation Army and the Kachin Independence Army, have been

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Speaker 1: fighting for decades since the country emerged from British colonial

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Speaker 1: rule at the end of World War Two. All of

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Speaker 1: these groups drew on a combination of ethnic and political grievances.

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Speaker 1: Many of them administer semi autonomous territories like the Kurrent State.

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Speaker 2: In twenty thirteen, thirteen ethnic armed organizations or EAOs came

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Speaker 2: together to form the nationwide Ceasefire Coordinating Team in CCT

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Speaker 2: and signed an eleven point Common Position of Ethnic Resistance

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Speaker 2: Organizations on national Ceasefire or the LEISA Agreement. Most of

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Speaker 2: them seemed to agree that they would accept a federal

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Speaker 2: system rather than complete autonomy. In twenty fifteen, a ceasefire

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Speaker 2: was signed, but conflict between ethnic armed organizations and between

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Speaker 2: EAOs and the government continued. Since the coup began, EO

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Speaker 2: membership has skyrocketed, and in October, the National Unity government

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Speaker 2: announced alliances with several groups under a central chain of command.

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Speaker 2: Some political organizations who played a part in the nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty eight uprising, like the Al Burma Students Democratic Front,

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Speaker 2: have been revived as armed groups. The ABSDF recently attacked

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Speaker 2: top Madaw ships using an RPG. Attacks on military bases

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Speaker 2: have also stepped up. PDF units have ambushed and killed

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Speaker 2: policemen and raided police and military outposts. Each time they do,

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Speaker 2: they steal valuable weapons and ammunition. The top Madaw has

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Speaker 2: responded with shellings and airstrikes against residential areas, executions, mass

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Speaker 2: physical retribution, and the murdering of civilians and aid workers

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Speaker 2: and burning of their bodies. As a result of all this,

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Speaker 2: ethnic armed organizations have joined forces with anti authoritarian Burman

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Speaker 2: people under the auspices of the People's Defense Forces, which

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Speaker 2: are under the command of the exiled National Unity Government.

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Speaker 6: We have never experienced such kind of brutalities from the

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Speaker 6: military as well as as strong resistance from the people.

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Speaker 6: They try to make sure the whole country submit to them,

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Speaker 6: but we still refuse to allow them to be our rulers.

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Speaker 7: This defiance has led to the formation of the People's

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Speaker 7: Defense Forces or PDF, a coalition of thousands of resistance

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Speaker 7: fighters who carrying out surprise attacks on hunter checkpoints, bombing

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Speaker 7: army convoys, and supporting ethnic armies in their fight against

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Speaker 7: the regime. Twelve months ago, these men and women were

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Speaker 7: students and office workers protesting the coup. Today they're training

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Speaker 7: to overthrow the military.

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Speaker 6: The Annesota is the tough choints, but the young people

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Speaker 6: they are ready to defend the communities. They have to,

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Speaker 6: of course, sacrifice their own daily life, ordinary life.

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Speaker 2: Since March of twenty twenty, the influx of new recruits

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Speaker 2: has changed these groups. Generation Z militias like the Carini

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Speaker 2: gin Z Liberation Army have sprung up, founded by kids

350
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Speaker 2: who were holding ammable signs at protests a few months earlier.

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Speaker 2: They care less about ethnic independence and more about beating

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Speaker 2: the junta. Many Berman kids join these groups. These organizations

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Speaker 2: of young fighters received training from the experienced guerrillas hiding

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Speaker 2: in the jungle, but they tended to adopt a less

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Speaker 2: top down military structure and armed themselves by scavenging whatever

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Speaker 2: weapons they could find, often twenty two caliber rifles better

357
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Speaker 2: suited to shooting squirrels than soldiers. It was these kids

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Speaker 2: who grew up online and knew that there was nothing

359
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,440
Speaker 2: you couldn't learn about on Reddit who tipped the balance

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00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,800
Speaker 2: of force away from the state. Unlike the ethnic armed

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Speaker 2: organizations and other more experienced guerrillas than menmar these kids

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Speaker 2: have little military experience. Their organizations have few rules and regulations.

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Speaker 2: They're made up entirely of young people. As a result,

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Speaker 2: there are certain things that they're less proficient at, but

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Speaker 2: they're much better at things like grasping the use of

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Speaker 2: new technologies, which has led to me and Maar being

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Speaker 2: the first country in the world where three D printed

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Speaker 2: weapons have taken part in a revolution against the government.

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Speaker 2: To hear more about that and many other things as

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Speaker 2: this series continues. Hey, everybody, I'm Robert Evans, and this

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Speaker 2: is me and mar printing the Revolution Part two. Since

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Speaker 2: the dawn of firearms, regular people all over the world

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Speaker 2: have had the same basic idea, maybe if I made

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Speaker 2: myself a gun, the government wouldn't be able to be

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Speaker 2: such a dick to me. Historically, this has had little

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Speaker 2: impact on the willingness of governments to be dicks to people.

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Speaker 2: In the beginning, all gun manufacturing was done by individual artisans,

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Speaker 2: and thus making a gun in your home was really

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Speaker 2: no different from making it in a shop, as long

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Speaker 2: as you had the proper tools. Guns in this period

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00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,199
Speaker 2: weren't super useful on their own and were best fired

382
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Speaker 2: in a volley by a shitload of dudes at once.

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Speaker 2: Since individual firearms were extremely inaccurate and cumbersome to use,

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Speaker 2: the fact that some poor or blacksmith could make himself

385
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Speaker 2: one wasn't much of a threat to anybody in power.

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Speaker 2: It did mean that battlefield prowess came from large blocks

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Speaker 2: of trained soldiers, not fuel lords on horseback rallying untrained peasants.

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Speaker 2: This change in technology led to a change in warfare

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Speaker 2: and helped to change society. As firearms evolved and became

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Speaker 2: these central weapons of battle. They required more intense tooling

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Speaker 2: and more expensive manufacturing capacity. Nations and peoples without the

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Speaker 2: know how our infrastructure were at a tremendous disadvantage. As

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Speaker 2: soon as this situation came into being, these unfortunate communities

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Speaker 2: set to work finding ways to gain the advantages of

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Speaker 2: firearms without the manufacturing capacity their foes enjoyed. Indigenous cannons

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Speaker 2: and regions resisting imperialism often consisted of composite materials less

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Speaker 2: sturdy than brods or iron. In the sixteen hundreds and

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Speaker 2: seventeen hundreds, Indigenous Americans in South America used wooden cannons

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Speaker 2: to fight against Spanish and Portuguese conquerors. The Vietnamese used

400
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 2: wooden cannons to resist the French during the coachin China

401
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,680
Speaker 2: Campaigane of eighteen sixty two. American Indians used wooden artillery

402
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 2: to blast settler fortifications in the seventeen hundreds and eighteen hundreds.

403
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Speaker 2: In the months that led up to the outbreak of

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Speaker 2: the Revolutionary War, the men who fought to create the

405
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 2: United States busied themselves building rifles and cannons in their

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Speaker 2: homes and communities to resist the English. This trend has

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00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 2: never really stopped in warfare. The day before we recorded this, James,

408
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 2: my partner in this series, sent me a screen grab

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Speaker 2: from a live stream of someone in Ukraine printing pieces

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Speaker 2: for AK forty sevens on a three D printer. Firearms

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Speaker 2: manufactured outside the arms industry have played a role in

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Speaker 2: every conflict of the modern era, but as you've probably guessed,

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Speaker 2: they have had the greatest influence in the little wars

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Speaker 2: of colonialism.

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Speaker 1: European nations rarely allowed any sort of firearms ownership in

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Speaker 1: their colonies except the individuals and ethnic groups that adopted

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Speaker 1: its local enforces. Since most of these places had never

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Speaker 1: developed their own industrial base for arms industry, colonial rebellions

419
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 1: often relied on home made weapons in their early stages,

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Speaker 1: along with modern firearms pilfered by deserting local soldiers. Where

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00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 1: domestic productive capacity existed, European colonizing nations went out of

422
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 1: their way to relocate it, along with the profit it generated,

423
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: to the metropol All were reflected on this in his

424
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Speaker 1: novel Burmese Dates, saying in the eighteenth century, the Indians

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Speaker 1: cast guns that are at any rate up to the

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Speaker 1: European standard. Now after we've been in India one hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty years. You can't make so much as a

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00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 1: brass cartridge case in the whole continent. Meanwhile, among the colonizers,

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Speaker 1: being armed became almost a synonym for being a man.

430
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: This was particularly true for the colonial police forces and militaries,

431
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: but it was also true domestically. Most people are broadly

432
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,880
Speaker 1: familiar with the u s. Second Amendment the robust gun

433
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 1: culture that it's spawned, but during the higher colonialism, English

434
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 1: citizens are also free to arm themselves. In nineteen hundred,

435
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: Prime Minister Robert gascoyne Cecil Marquis of Salisbury, gave a

436
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: speech in which he claimed he would lud the day

437
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: when there was a rifle in every cottage in England.

438
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: Firearms were utterly and restricted at this point. The first

439
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: chains to this came in nineteen oh three with the

440
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 1: first Law that required a permit to carry a handgun

441
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: and restricted children from buying guns. Still, firearms were widely

442
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 1: available until a red panic gripped the nation in nineteen

443
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 1: nineteen following the Bolshek Revolution in Russia. Across the ocean

444
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: in Spain, where firearms ownership was less strictly restricted, where

445
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: Orwell himself would learn what it was to fire a

446
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: rifle at someone who shot back. Armed unions and working

447
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 1: people served as the only bullwalk to a military coup.

448
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: In nineteen thirty six, in Madrid, one officer opened his

449
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: armory to the union militias, but another refused to hand

450
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: over for the bolts for the guns they had been issued.

451
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 1: In Barcelona, where the anarchist left had a long tradition

452
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: of armed political violence, the coup was repelled by workers

453
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: with guns, and a general leading troops there was imprisoned

454
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: and executed. The same pattern played out all across the

455
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 1: country in July nineteen thirty six, when the military rose

456
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 1: up to topple the elected government. In the cities where

457
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: the government opened the armories to the people, the coup

458
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: was repelled. In the cities where the government did not,

459
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 1: the coup succeeded. Reflecting on this in nineteen forty one,

460
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 1: or Wit, the totalitarian states can do great things, but

461
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 1: there is one thing they cannot do. They cannot give

462
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 1: factory worker a rifle and tell him to take it

463
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 1: home and keep it in his bedroom. That rifle on

464
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat

465
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 1: is a symbol of democracy. It's a job to see

466
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: that it's stays there.

467
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 2: Despite Orwell's please. The years that followed the Second World

468
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 2: War led to greater restrictions of the ability of the

469
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 2: public to arm itself. By the nineteen fifties, carrying any

470
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: weapon for self defense was illegal. Semi automatic center fire

471
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 2: arms were banned in nineteen eighty eight, and pistols were

472
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 2: banned in nineteen ninety six after a mass shooting killed

473
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 2: sixteen children in Dunblane. This was all utterly infuriating to

474
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 2: a man named Philip A.

475
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 8: Loody.

476
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 2: Loudy, born in nineteen sixty five grew up on a

477
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 2: farm in West Yorkshire, England. We don't have a tremendous

478
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 2: amount of detail about his upbringing, but by the time

479
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 2: he was in his early thirties he'd become a committed

480
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,719
Speaker 2: crusader for an unrestricted right to bear arms. A skilled

481
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 2: machinist with a well equipped shop, Loody began the long

482
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 2: process of learning how to craft home made firearms. Soon

483
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 2: he was building semi and fully automatic weapons. Now these

484
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 2: were not military grade firearms. The barrels were unrifled, which

485
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 2: made them terribly inaccurate, but every piece could be crafted

486
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 2: from widely available things like sheet metal, washers and screws.

487
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 2: The person assembling a looty gun would need to be

488
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 2: a skilled craftsman, but they would not need access to

489
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 2: welding rigs forges, rather expensive industrial equipment. Loody published a

490
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 2: book Expedient Homemade Firearms, The nine millimeters Submachine Gun in

491
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety eight through Paladin Press. In the late nineteen nineties,

492
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 2: Paladin was one of the places you could go to

493
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 2: mail order fringe political literature and guides for stuff like

494
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 2: trapping human beings or disabling the drive system of an

495
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 2: Abrams tank in the United States. Nothing about Loudy's book

496
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 2: was or is illegal, but Phil didn't live in the

497
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 2: United States. He was arrested several times, starting in the

498
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 2: late nineteen nineties when a pair of illegal home built

499
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: guns were found on his property. Ludy spent the rest

500
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 2: of his life, which ended in twenty eleven, operating a

501
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 2: website where he raged against gun control. His main argument

502
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 2: was that England was headed for totalitarianism, and like Orwell,

503
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 2: he believed only public ownership of arms could prevent this.

504
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 2: Unlike Orwell, Ludy was firmly on the right wing. He

505
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 2: traced society's problems to quote a combination of political correctness

506
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 2: and anti freedom of speech laws legislation governing how we

507
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 2: speak about such subjects as religion or a person's race

508
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 2: being just two examples. Words and phrases that have been

509
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 2: used for centuries without malice are now insipid in people's

510
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 2: mouths and said to cause offence by those very same

511
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 2: speech police, who, on the other hand, turned a blind

512
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 2: eye to the violence, foul language, and sexual references blasted

513
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 2: daily through our TV sets, a phenomenon that really does

514
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: cause a fence to many people. Luty never succeeded in

515
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 2: sparking a renaissance and civilian arms ownership in the UK,

516
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 2: but his ideas were adopted by organized criminal groups all

517
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 2: around the world. In Brazil, looty guns can go for

518
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 2: as much as twenty five hundred dollars. From twenty eleven

519
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 2: to twenty twelve, nearly half of the submachine guns seized

520
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 2: by police in sal Polo were homemade. Most of these

521
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 2: arms were certainly used as tools by drug dealers or

522
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 2: other gangsters, but some of them were surely also the

523
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 2: tools of citizens who simply sought a way to defend

524
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: themselves in a place with no real rule of law.

525
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 2: Looty guns have long been popular among motorcycle gangs in Australia,

526
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 2: and in October of twenty nineteen, a fascist terrorist carried

527
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: out the last of that year's eight Chan shootings in Hulla,

528
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 2: Germany with a looty gun. His weapons, thankfully did not

529
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 2: work well. As a general rule, looty guns were never

530
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 2: going to be of much use to anyone besides organized criminals.

531
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 2: They aren't great in a gunfight, but you can use

532
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 2: them to spray bullets into a room or a vehicle

533
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 2: at close range pretty well. The year after Phil Loudy

534
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 2: died twenty twelve, a fellow named Cody Wilson decided to

535
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 2: carry on his work. Cody felt three D printing carried

536
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 2: the possibility of eventually manufacturing arms of a quality that

537
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 2: might rival traditionally produced guns. He started simple with a

538
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 2: single shot three eighty handgun based around the old Liberator

539
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 2: pistol from World War II. The Liberator had been a

540
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 2: single shot forty five caliber handgun meant to be dropped

541
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 2: into Nazi occupied territories and used by insurgents to stealthily

542
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 2: kill single German soldiers and take their guns. Cody Wilson

543
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 2: described himself as a crypto anarchist, and when his ideas

544
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 2: began to draw attention, he dropped out of law school

545
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 2: to create Defense Distributed. This organization was dedicated to the

546
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 2: development and distribution of plans to craft three D printed weapons.

547
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 2: It used a platform called death Cad to allow users

548
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 2: to develop and share blueprints. In twenty thirteen, the first

549
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 2: CAD gun file became available online to everyone. It was

550
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: downloaded more than one hundred thousand times in two days.

551
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 2: I'd like to quote now from an article on the

552
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 2: website three D Natives. This prompted the US government to

553
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 2: demand that Defense Distributed remove the file from their site.

554
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 2: What followed is a legal battle between Cody Wilson and

555
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 2: the US government, consisting of back and forth lawsuits. It

556
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 2: lasted five years until in twenty eighteen, the Trump administration

557
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 2: legalized three D printed guns. The same year, Wilson was

558
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 2: charged with sexual assault of an underage girl and had

559
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 2: to step down from Defense Distributed. Nonetheless, the organization did

560
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 2: not cease to exist without Cody. Today for a yearly

561
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 2: fee of fifty dollars. Users of the DEAFCAD website can

562
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,719
Speaker 2: access the files containing different designs of three D printed guns.

563
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 2: And I should note here that it's probably more accurate

564
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 2: to say the Trump administration legalized sharing the plans and

565
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 2: printing the files and whatnot of three D printed guns,

566
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 2: not legalized three D printed guns. Homemade firearms have been

567
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 2: federally legal in the United States since forever. The fighting

568
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 2: in the courts over all this has continued ever since,

569
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 2: and in twenty nineteen, a federal judge in Seattle temporarily

570
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 2: blocked DEAFCAD. This sparked the creation of a new group,

571
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 2: de Terence Dispensed, which was even less centralized. The basic

572
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 2: idea was that this would make them harder to take

573
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 2: down via lawsuits or police action. Not stated was that

574
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 2: this might also protect their reputation from a Cody Wilson's situation.

575
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 2: The debate over the legality of three D printed firearm

576
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 2: plans continues on to the present day, but the development

577
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 2: of these arms has continued at an ever faster pace.

578
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 2: The best modern three D printed arms can even rival

579
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 2: conventional guns. It's worth emphasizing that these are not purely

580
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 2: plastic tools. The Liberator pistol used a metal nail, and

581
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,399
Speaker 2: the better three D arms have metal barrels rifled using

582
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 2: other craft methods that require some nohow but arguably less

583
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 2: than it took to manufacture a looty gun. Three D

584
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 2: printed arms have been confiscated by police around the world,

585
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 2: but in recent months they've begun to crop up somewhere

586
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,839
Speaker 2: new in the arms of revolutionaries fighting against a military coup.

587
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: Me and ma Berman before that, sad relatively strict gun

588
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,240
Speaker 1: control laws for decades. When George Orwell was a policeman

589
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: there in the nineteen twenties, he may have carried a gun,

590
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 1: but the people he was policing did not. In the

591
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties, the British leaders allowed tat organizations similar to

592
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 1: militias to form and drill, but they weren't allowed to

593
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:53,760
Speaker 1: carry guns. Gun licenses under the dictatorship were issued primarily

594
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 1: to party members, but most were revoked after nineteen eighty

595
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 1: eight failed Pro democracy uprising. The only civilians who were

596
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 1: permitted to own arms through the Chin, the nation's poorous

597
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 1: ethnic group who rely on guns to hunt for food.

598
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 1: In many cases, these guns were flintlocks that would not

599
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: have looked that out of place on a battle till

600
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: two centuries before. In practice, though, things are very different.

601
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: The current conflict is best seen as a flare up

602
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: in violence, so it has been ongoing since Britain left

603
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: the country in nineteen forty seven. The Tatmador has consistently

604
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: used violence against marginalized ethnic groups in the country, and

605
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: they have consistently taken up arms in response. But unlike

606
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: civil wars in the Middle East, wealthy nations in the

607
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: West have not been flooding me and Mihle with weapons

608
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,959
Speaker 1: for decades, and the various eos or ethnic armed organizations

609
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: have had to turn to much more unorthodox roots to

610
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: arm and equip selves against the government. To get a

611
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 1: better idea of what things are like on the ground,

612
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: we spoke to Pierre. He's French, but he's a serial

613
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: volunteer with national liberation struggles around the world. A fought

614
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 1: with the Korrenn people in the early two thousands.

615
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 4: Yes, so the ammunition is a constant problem. The shortage

616
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 4: is absolutely permanent, and yes, there is two sources for

617
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 4: the for the for the weapons, there is the black market,

618
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 4: and the prices, especially of ammunition, are prohibitive. This is

619
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 4: why I would like to have my notebook here with me,

620
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 4: because I think I wrote down the conversation I had

621
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 4: with some leaders of the kind at the time, asking

622
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 4: them why we didn't do more persons. But we just

623
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 4: can't afford it, you know, we just can't afford it.

624
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:50,439
Speaker 8: Like strictly, we we don't.

625
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 4: We don't have enough ammunition to do any kind of

626
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:56,760
Speaker 4: of operation.

627
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 8: We need to.

628
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 4: So all the operations we did well always focused on

629
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 4: if we could get cure some ammunition, if we could

630
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 4: cuture like weapons, but especially ammunition. Yeah, so there is

631
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 4: you know, that's that's the second source of of course,

632
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 4: of of weapons. Uh, let's say sources. The it's the

633
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 4: captures of course. Then the black markets. The black markets

634
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 4: used to be huge in Cambodia. I don't know what's

635
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 4: the situation now. That was in the nineties. That was

636
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 4: it was a bit of the Albania of sosieties at

637
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:41,439
Speaker 4: this time, right.

638
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 9: And so there is also the other a ethnic groups

639
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 9: that receive sometimes say a lot of of.

640
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 4: Of arms and ammunition from sponsors. Okay, some of them,

641
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 4: like the Western dam is our sponsored by China. So

642
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 4: like their supply of ammunition. It's pretty good of weapons.

643
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 4: I think it's even cartolony and stuff. Then there is

644
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 4: also groups that also produced locally quite good. They're on arms,

645
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:31,720
Speaker 4: light arms usually, so yeah, these are the different sources

646
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 4: of what comes to in the time I was there.

647
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 1: In the early weeks of the protests. Once I claim

648
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: clear that non violent demonstrators are going to be met

649
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 1: with state violence, protests began to fashion weapons. First, I

650
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 1: fought soldiers with assault rifles, using catapults and bows and arrows.

651
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,399
Speaker 1: It was incredibly brave, but it wasn't very effective. By

652
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: the twenty eighth of March, protesters are taking a step

653
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 1: from the group calling itself the Calais Civil Army, set

654
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 1: up barricades and defended them using pressurized air rifles that

655
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 1: fired marbles and bicycle wheel bearings. The rifles all used

656
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 1: the same design and the same components. They were based

657
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 1: on a video someone found on YouTube, but they weren't lethal.

658
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 1: They helped protesters defend their space, albeit at a great cost,

659
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: and at first clash, four protesters and four soldiers were killed.

660
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: The protesters in Calais were able to hold out a

661
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 1: few days using old hunting rifles and air guns the

662
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 1: ambush military patrols and they took four police hostage. Then

663
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:42,320
Speaker 1: they exchanged them for nine incarcerated protesters. But in early April,

664
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 1: the Tapmador returned to the protest camp in Calay with

665
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,320
Speaker 1: rocket propelled grenades and machine guns and killed eleven people.

666
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 1: We must fight back against them. If not, our generation

667
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: will face a worse situation than us. They have no laws,

668
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 1: a neighborhood villager who battled the regime's forces told the Irrawoody,

669
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 1: a local paper. The air guns spread around the country quickly.

670
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 1: To avoid surveillance, protesters talked about cooking up berryani on

671
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 1: telegram channels, and what they meant was desperately scouring the

672
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 1: internet for a way to fight back and finding a

673
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 1: way to make an air rifle out of a buttane canister,

674
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: a pipe and a cigarette lighter, combined with fireworks and

675
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: smoke bombs made of potassium nitrate. The air rifle gave

676
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 1: protests just enough cupboard to escape police charges, but they

677
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 1: also gave the junta an excuse to further escalate the violence.

678
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,879
Speaker 10: Attitudes are hardening among the protesters too. In Mandalay, they

679
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 10: took air rifles to the barricades on Saturday, hardly a

680
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 10: match for the weapons of war they face, but now

681
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 10: they know this is a fight to the death and

682
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 10: more destruction. After a fire raged in pg Dagon township overnight,

683
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 10: people living there but kept away by security forces returned

684
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:03,399
Speaker 10: to find sixty homes burned to the ground. Now all

685
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 10: they can do is pick through the ashes, trying to

686
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 10: save anything from the military's policy of scorched earth.

687
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 2: Even the top Madaw makes its own weapons, a highly

688
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 2: unusual move for a relatively small nation. Topmada troops and

689
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 2: police can be seen with a bewildering array of indigenously

690
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 2: produced copies of M sixteen's oozies and even five five

691
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 2: six Galil pattern AK style rifles, as well as M

692
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 2: three light machine guns, which are slightly updated copies of

693
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 2: the MG forty two used by the Nazis in World

694
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 2: War Two. After the failed eight eight eight eight uprisings

695
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty eight, the military offered concessions to China

696
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 2: in return for more advanced weapons. They got them, but

697
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 2: it didn't stop China from also supplying ethnic armed organizations.

698
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 2: EAOs don't have access to the same munitions factories that

699
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 2: the government does. But there is a long tradition of

700
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,760
Speaker 2: homemade weapons in Myanmar. In more remote parts of the country,

701
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 2: homemade air rifles and shotguns seem to have been relatively

702
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 2: common place before the start of the conflict, and they

703
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 2: were mostly used for hunting. The country is also covered

704
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 2: with land mines, which the EAOs used a great effect

705
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 2: against the top at all. We spoke to Pierre, a

706
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,800
Speaker 2: former combatant with the KRIN who no longer lives in

707
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 2: me and Maar. His experience is not that recent, but

708
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 2: it helps us to understand the way this conflict has

709
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 2: been fought for decades.

710
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:25,240
Speaker 4: What we used to to produce A lot of land mines,

711
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 4: that's that's produced at the base.

712
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 8: Yes, with like you know, very lot of systems. Is

713
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 8: a little bit of.

714
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 4: One type of plastic explosive, a couple of BOMBOO for

715
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 4: contactors and.

716
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 8: Batterie. That's it.

717
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,280
Speaker 2: Pellet guns are not good for combat, and EAOs mostly

718
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 2: relied on weapons imported from Thailand, India or China. Overwhelmingly

719
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 2: these were ak or In sixteen pattern rifles.

720
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mostly in my.

721
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 4: In the units have been there is probably a majority

722
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 4: of A platforms.

723
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 8: In this time. Yes, yeah, definitely. I mean, it's more

724
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 8: reliable and you know, simple to perate.

725
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 4: It's very adapted to the to the to.

726
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,760
Speaker 8: The type of guerrilla it was. It was quite correct,

727
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:22,240
Speaker 8: I mean.

728
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 4: From the moment that I switched to a case at least,

729
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 4: because at first I tried to use this creparency M

730
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 4: sixteen and it was a nightmare of malfunctions. So I

731
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 4: switched back to a case what I best know and

732
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 4: used doesn't have this. I never really.

733
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 8: Had any any malfunction with the case.

734
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 4: Maybe one time with a faulty lot of communition, but

735
00:43:57,960 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 4: that's it.

736
00:43:59,120 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 8: Not really the.

737
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 2: Rightful the fight, Pierre says, has never been restricted to

738
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 2: the battlefield for the top of the door. Violence against

739
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 2: civilians is part of their four cuts doctrine that cuts

740
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 2: off funding, food, intelligence, and recruits for the EAOs. Now

741
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,320
Speaker 2: they are moving that same outlook to the cities.

742
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 8: Like literally.

743
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 4: Literally by by absolutely no euros of hels. I mean,

744
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 4: like one of the first things that I saw when

745
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 4: we went going patrolling in the in the Karen villages,

746
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 4: huh around a thousand of operation, is that there was

747
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 4: absolutely no girl between the edge of eleven to the

748
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 4: edge of seventeen. I was like, I asked you know,

749
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 4: my my commando about it, and he says, yeah, like

750
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 4: obviously if a stays, they will be rapped by the

751
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 4: tapmado and the first patrol like the first time they

752
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:05,839
Speaker 4: will will come.

753
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 8: You know.

754
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 4: So this this gives you a little bit of the

755
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 4: tone of what they are about. They constantly ransom civilians

756
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 4: when they don't model them, like you know, shell villages

757
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,360
Speaker 4: for norrision or because there had been an operation of

758
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 4: the kind of a and they take revenge and who

759
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 4: they can take revenge and with the civilians.

760
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 8: You know, this is this is how they be, This

761
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 8: is who they are. Basically.

762
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 2: The Topmadaw is a large army in many of the

763
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,760
Speaker 2: conscripts are hardly high speed operator types, but that hasn't

764
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,720
Speaker 2: stopped them from killing thousands of innocent civilians.

765
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 4: I mean they have as many army, different units with

766
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 4: different military value. Let's say, uh, you know, many times

767
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 4: the the units that they stuck on hilltop in the

768
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:11,399
Speaker 4: middle of rebel zone are not like the most combative

769
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 4: let's say, but sometimes you will get surprised resistance. But yeah,

770
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 4: except for that, when they do an operation in in

771
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:31,720
Speaker 4: a place, they bring in like more elite troops.

772
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 2: Let's say By contrast, the kN l A, the Karnean

773
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 2: National Liberation Army and other e aos relied on civilian

774
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:40,240
Speaker 2: support to survive.

775
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,839
Speaker 4: The Canada operates in in Karen.

776
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 8: Territory and the civilians are Karen.

777
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:54,280
Speaker 4: I mean, uh pretty much when we when we arrive

778
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 4: in in the village.

779
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 8: As as medics, you know.

780
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 4: That with us take care of the population, distribute medicine. No,

781
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 4: like I don't know what to tell you, is like

782
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 4: quite it's quite a funny accusation coming from the technology.

783
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 2: This attitude has helped them, Per says, and they have

784
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 2: always been open to non current recruits.

785
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 8: First of all, it's not absolutely not.

786
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 4: That's some kind of ethnicist organization or ethno nationally, it's like,

787
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 4: you know, with some heat for I think group, including

788
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 4: the Obama I think group that like traditionally you know

789
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 4: are the leaders of the Tamadeo that have been oppressing

790
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:45,280
Speaker 4: them for seventeen years.

791
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 8: But they have absolutely no resentment.

792
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 4: They are extremely open to work with Democrats, democratic forces

793
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 4: from every impacts.

794
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 2: Yes, since nineteen eighty eight, Per said, the k in

795
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 2: LA had been willing to link up with democratic rebels,

796
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 2: providing them with training and shelter in order to further

797
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 2: their shared goal of a federal and democratic country that

798
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 2: treated all ethnicities with respect.

799
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:09,760
Speaker 8: So PDFs.

800
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 4: So these rebels, let's say, uh also trend by the

801
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 4: Karrents and uh so by people I know very well

802
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 4: since it was my commander then Nea. So I've seen

803
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 4: I've seen the Karrents. I've always been extremely accommodating to

804
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 4: the Bama opposition, meaning the Bamar, the main ethnic group

805
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:41,759
Speaker 4: are I say this for people that might not know

806
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:48,839
Speaker 4: the difference. And so the Karrents always add representation and

807
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 4: they took like you know, political refugees, let's say, from

808
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 4: from inside the.

809
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 8: Boma in the territory.

810
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 4: The control manor prose or was like the student association,

811
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 4: which exact na my cantricle right now.

812
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 8: But all these.

813
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 4: Organization of the position and so now they keep this

814
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 4: tradition by helping the UH, these new rebels of the

815
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 4: PDF to get military training.

816
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 2: And yes, by the summer of twenty twenty, young people

817
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 2: had fled into the Jungles, and many of them, even

818
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 2: the ones of Burman ethnicity, were fighting alongside the Karin

819
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 2: and Karni rebels they'd previously seen as troublemakers and terrorists

820
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,839
Speaker 2: just a year or two before. We spoke with one

821
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 2: of these people, Zallin, who left his home in May

822
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty one.

823
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 5: There were students, friends, but also young people from just

824
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 5: the neighborhood. Most people were just above twenty. A lot

825
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 5: of some were single. You know, there's women as well,

826
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 5: new technology, young people from the from the technology computer

827
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:15,399
Speaker 5: apologists Whycott University. A lot of these people who knew

828
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 5: modern technology went into the jungle to go in the

829
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 5: jungle to train and be able to overthrow the men

830
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 5: online government. So there it was very tiring. We had

831
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 5: to go up and down a lot of hills. It

832
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 5: was two days of walking get there, going up and

833
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 5: down the hills and back down, up and down until

834
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:39,719
Speaker 5: we got to the training plan.

835
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:56,959
Speaker 2: Hey everyone, I'm Robert Evans, and welcome to episode three

836
00:50:57,239 --> 00:51:00,840
Speaker 2: of Printing the Revolution. Here's my partner, James Stout.

837
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 1: In the spring and summer of twenty twenty, millions of

838
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:09,319
Speaker 1: Americans had versions of the same experience. State forces killed

839
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 1: the helpless man. Protesters took to the streets in anger,

840
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 1: and armed agents of the state responded with mass violence.

841
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 1: A lot of people's lives changed forever. In fairly short order.

842
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:23,319
Speaker 1: What happened in Me and Mara after the military coup

843
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:27,360
Speaker 1: was that story turned up to eleven within days. The

844
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 1: military had used live fire and demonstrators. Zor a Saurce

845
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:34,359
Speaker 1: for today's episode. We're twenty two years old. At the time.

846
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:37,919
Speaker 1: He spend his days working as a delivery driver, hang

847
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: out with his girlfriend playing video games. On the day

848
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 1: the coup started, he was playing pubg after a long shift.

849
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 1: Soon he and his girlfriend took to the streets with

850
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:52,800
Speaker 1: thousands of other gen z Burmese kids. The state responded

851
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:57,839
Speaker 1: with massacres, often firing automatic weapons into the crowds. Saw

852
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 1: Helen been particularly politically active before this moment. In fact,

853
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 1: he felt pretty poorly towards revolutionary supposing the government in

854
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 1: the jungle, seeing them as rebellious trouble makers.

855
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 5: In the past, we thought that the military is a

856
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 5: group that loves all the people, all the different groups

857
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 5: in the in the country, and then there's just a

858
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 5: few people who really hate the military, but especially after

859
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 5: the one who we face it with our own foreheads,

860
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:35,280
Speaker 5: you know, with the guns we can face the evil

861
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 5: the military and all the human rights and things that

862
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 5: people who hated the military before we're talking about we

863
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 5: understand it now because we had to face it ourselves.

864
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,280
Speaker 5: And then they're going to tell us terrorists, and however

865
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 5: must they call us. We know that we're finding for

866
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:56,919
Speaker 5: human rights, and we know that each person deserves these

867
00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:02,280
Speaker 5: basic things, you know, So so even when we capture

868
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:06,759
Speaker 5: a soldier, we don't kill them immediately that they're unarmed.

869
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 5: You know, when they capture a PDF, they torture and

870
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 5: kill them very very horrifically or horrendously, and they kill

871
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 5: and do hurt all the citizens and ordinary bystanders. So

872
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 5: for us, what they're calling as rebels before, we're not rebels.

873
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 5: They're the ones that are rebels, so we have to

874
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 5: call them rebels. They're the terrorists.

875
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 1: But as violence against protests escalated, so All began to

876
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,359
Speaker 1: see through the lies he'd been told by the military.

877
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 5: Of his life. What we're calling as rebels are what

878
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 5: we kind of become. But we know why we are

879
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 5: now rebels. That's because of their terrorism, their oppressive reviews,

880
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 5: and their violation of human rights. That's why we have

881
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 5: to revolt against them.

882
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:03,280
Speaker 1: For a time, protesters responded creatively with giant potato guns

883
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 1: meant to fire leslie to protect ours long distances. These

884
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 1: homemade guns will be fired in volleys. Well, other protested

885
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: protected them with shields. Some of these tactics were effective

886
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:17,400
Speaker 1: a point, but it quickly became clear that the government

887
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:20,440
Speaker 1: was willing to massacre everyone's standing up to them. So

888
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,479
Speaker 1: his girlfriend and their friends quickly decided that non violent

889
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 1: resistance wasn't going to work, but they didn't give up.

890
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 5: As we get onto into June, there's two paths, right,

891
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 5: we can be normal, we can go on the streets,

892
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 5: we can ask for the people's power back, and since

893
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:42,359
Speaker 5: that's not working, we know that what we have to

894
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 5: do is we need to hold these guns. Get these guns.

895
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 5: And on the military side, all they know is that

896
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:53,359
Speaker 5: they will solve this by folding guns. So the only thing,

897
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:55,919
Speaker 5: the only path that's left for us is to take

898
00:54:55,960 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 5: those guns for ourselves. So around the end of we

899
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 5: started entering training school. So the downtoy is what the

900
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:10,879
Speaker 5: word we use, and it's something like this corner part

901
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 5: so one corner part one to do so talking. What

902
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,839
Speaker 5: that means is that in the huntings huntings that we

903
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 5: were doing, hunting rifles that we were using for that.

904
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 5: So we kind of start started, and we fought first

905
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 5: and demoso, if we can ask the military nicely, then

906
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 5: there's no reason for us to be using guns. But

907
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,839
Speaker 5: since they don't listen to our demands or our requests

908
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:42,799
Speaker 5: at all, then and since that all we can do,

909
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 5: all they are saying, all they're doing is using the

910
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 5: guns and being terrorists trying to shoot us. So the

911
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:51,959
Speaker 5: only thing that we can do to get what we

912
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:54,720
Speaker 5: need and what we want is to take the guns

913
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 5: for ourselves.

914
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 1: And so, like hundreds of people, is age. So All

915
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 1: headed into the jungle in May twenty twenty one. The

916
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 1: decision wasn't an over night one or an easy one.

917
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 1: But after protesting non violently, then meeting state violence with

918
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:13,280
Speaker 1: community defense, then seeing his peers gunned down in the street,

919
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 1: he didn't have many other choices. He'd picked up a megaphone,

920
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:20,360
Speaker 1: then a shield, and now he was heading in the

921
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:23,880
Speaker 1: jungle to pick up a rifle. The only problem was

922
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 1: that there weren't any rifles.

923
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 2: He left with his girlfriend and quote with the blessing

924
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 2: of his parents. Keep that in mind for later. When

925
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:34,440
Speaker 2: he first went to the jungle, Zall went to a

926
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:37,280
Speaker 2: two week training camp where the Karni People's Defense Force

927
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 2: taught him the basics of guerrilla warfare, but they didn't

928
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:43,200
Speaker 2: have enough weapons to arm him and his friends. So

929
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:46,839
Speaker 2: these Ginz militants began their fighting careers with twenty two

930
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:50,480
Speaker 2: caliber rifles. If you aren't a gun person, the twenty

931
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:53,799
Speaker 2: two was one of the smallest widely available bullets. Like

932
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 2: any bullet, it can kill, but as a caliber it's

933
00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:00,919
Speaker 2: better suited for shooting rabbits than soldiers. Two rifles were

934
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 2: handmade locally and only fired one shot at a time,

935
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 2: but it was those rifles that Zaw, his girlfriend, and

936
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:10,360
Speaker 2: their friends carried into their first gunfight with the Tautmadaw.

937
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 2: After battling like that for about three weeks, the shooting stopped,

938
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 2: he said in an interview we conducted over signal. After

939
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 2: the shooting stopped, we grouped together money to buy arms

940
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 2: by asking for donations. They were massively outgunned, but determined

941
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 2: to fight on with the weapons they could make and

942
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:29,920
Speaker 2: buy on the black market until they could find something better,

943
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 2: even if that meant taking guns from dead soldiers. The

944
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 2: military's guns are extremely good, of course, compared to point

945
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 2: two two's, he said. We fight with the mindset that

946
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 2: we must win our minds are always prepared to take

947
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:44,800
Speaker 2: their guns when a soldier falls. It's a mindset to

948
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 2: want the enemy's arms to beat your own arms. You

949
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 2: need to want to resist injustice. Because we are fighting

950
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 2: for what is right. We do not get sad even

951
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 2: if we die. We are happy, even when wounded. We

952
00:57:55,680 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 2: no longer care if our arms are matched. Unevenly their enthusiasm,

953
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 2: PDF units all over the country were finding themselves in

954
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:07,360
Speaker 2: the same desperate situation. When thousands of young people in

955
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:09,919
Speaker 2: Menmar decided to take up arms against the government, they're

956
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 2: just warn enough guns to go around. Ak pattern rifles

957
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 2: sell for three thousand dollars on the black market, and

958
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:19,720
Speaker 2: ar's sell for up to seven thousand dollars. The GDP

959
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:22,800
Speaker 2: per capita in twenty twenty was just twelve hundred and

960
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 2: eighteen dollars and thirty five cents per person, and unlike

961
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 2: militias in Syria and Iraq, the pro democracy EAOs and

962
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:34,120
Speaker 2: Myanmar don't have the benefit questionable benefit of the US

963
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,960
Speaker 2: flooding the region with its fire hose of guns and money. Undeterred,

964
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 2: Zaw and his squad took to YouTube, where they found

965
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 2: videos explaining how to make two two three caliber bolt

966
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 2: action rifles. Again, if you're not a gun person, two

967
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 2: two three may not sound very different than twenty two,

968
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 2: But whereas twenty two is commonly used to shoot squirrels,

969
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 2: two two three is the standard rifle round more or

970
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:58,520
Speaker 2: less for the US military. These new bolt action two

971
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 2: two threes Zaw and his friends were making could not

972
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:03,720
Speaker 2: match the rate of fire of a modern rifle, but

973
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:06,480
Speaker 2: they could at least match those rifles in stopping power.

974
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:10,080
Speaker 2: Once these gen z insurgeons had the technique down, they

975
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:13,280
Speaker 2: created a detailed album on Facebook showing how everything from

976
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 2: the stalk to the barrel could be made with pipes, lumber,

977
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 2: and hours and hours of detailed hard work. Unlike their

978
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 2: guerrilla warfare instructors, these kids had grown up on the

979
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 2: Internet rather than the jungle, so they knew that if

980
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 2: it exists, there's a subreddit for it. It was the

981
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 2: Internet that came to their rescue. Three D printed guns

982
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:33,760
Speaker 2: have been around for a decade, but the early models

983
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 2: didn't work well and suffered from a pretty bad reputation

984
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 2: due in part to Cody Wilson, the pedophile libertarian activists

985
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:44,360
Speaker 2: we discussed last episode. Jake Hanrahan of Popular Front has

986
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:46,520
Speaker 2: covered the printed gun movement extensively.

987
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 11: Cody Wilson mighte his whole thing like, I'm the guy

988
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 11: with the three D printed guns, and he was on

989
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,919
Speaker 11: this moral CRUs side. The three D printed gun lads,

990
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:57,480
Speaker 11: particularly Determs Dispense, well, like, yeah, don't give a shit

991
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 11: about that. We just putting our stuff out into the world. See,

992
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 11: they got the ideas, but they weren't really wedded to

993
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 11: this idea of it being one person.

994
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:07,680
Speaker 2: Deterrens Dispensed was a group of anonymous activists who were

995
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:10,520
Speaker 2: more concerned with making printed guns that worked than making

996
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 2: a name for themselves. Hamrahan was connected to one activist

997
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 2: who used the pseudonym j Stark through the group, and

998
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:20,760
Speaker 2: after three years of conversing online, Hamrahan met Stark in

999
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 2: Germany to produce a documentary. Jay Stark died of a

1000
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:27,120
Speaker 2: heart attack following a police raid last year, So we

1001
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:29,640
Speaker 2: spoke to Hanrahan about Stark's worldview.

1002
01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:33,920
Speaker 11: His whole worldview comes from this idea that you know,

1003
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 11: it's everybody should have the right to be able to

1004
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:42,440
Speaker 11: fight tyranny, and if you can't fight tyranny, like you're fucked.

1005
01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:44,520
Speaker 11: And the way to fight tyranny in the modern era

1006
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 11: is firearms.

1007
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 8: We know that. You know, there's there's.

1008
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:50,439
Speaker 11: No you can't argue it's there's no peaceful march gets

1009
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 11: rid of a fascist dictatorship or whatever. But he he was,

1010
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 11: he he was you know, some people would say he

1011
01:00:57,280 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 11: was far right, some people say he was an anarchist.

1012
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 11: Some people say he was a US patriot type. I mean, first,

1013
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 11: he wasn't even from America, and he had a lot

1014
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:07,160
Speaker 11: of he liked the laws in America, but he wasn't

1015
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 11: like some of the American kind of fan boy or

1016
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:13,280
Speaker 11: anything on that sense. He liked the gun laws. He

1017
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 11: liked the freedom of speech lords, which I do as well.

1018
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:18,040
Speaker 11: You know, like personally I in this country. You know,

1019
01:01:18,040 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 11: if you tweet the wrong thing, even in jest, like

1020
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 11: police will literally come to your house in Britain like

1021
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 11: it's happened, it's fucking mental. So yeah, he liked that

1022
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 11: kind of thing, and I think I think for him

1023
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 11: it was he was very tonal vision. You know, he

1024
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 11: was a very tonal vision. It was just freedom, freedom

1025
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 11: of freedom, and if you said, well what about this,

1026
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:38,840
Speaker 11: what about that? He was like, I don't care about

1027
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 11: that until the freedom is there, there's no point looking

1028
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:44,120
Speaker 11: at anything else, and so his brain was always on

1029
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:46,440
Speaker 11: people that are living under tyranny, you know, and it

1030
01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 11: genuinely was. I know, there's a lot of people, even leftists,

1031
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:52,960
Speaker 11: particularly leftists, that tried to completely smear him as a

1032
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 11: white supremacist. They were saying, oh, everything he said in

1033
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:58,320
Speaker 11: that doc that I made was really he was secret

1034
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:02,160
Speaker 11: anti Jewish white supremacy. And then it came out that

1035
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 11: he wasn't even white.

1036
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:03,880
Speaker 8: You know.

1037
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:06,120
Speaker 11: It says like very good, very good, you fucking idiots.

1038
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 11: So there was a lot of that going around. But

1039
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:11,760
Speaker 11: I honestly believe that deep down he was just tunnel

1040
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:15,600
Speaker 11: vision focused on this idea of every until everybody is

1041
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:17,920
Speaker 11: not living under tyranny, I must go on this mission.

1042
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 11: And Okay, if someone shoots up at school with what

1043
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 11: I've invented, so be it. You know, which I'm not

1044
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:25,600
Speaker 11: saying that's good, but that was just his idea.

1045
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:25,800
Speaker 8: You know.

1046
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 11: He was like, so be it, fuck it if I can.

1047
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 11: You know, he was very genuine when he was on

1048
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:32,560
Speaker 11: about the wigas, or he was on about the mistreatment

1049
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:34,800
Speaker 11: of Kurds from Turkey, and you know, he was like, look,

1050
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 11: if we can build something that can help them. Well,

1051
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:39,280
Speaker 11: sorry that the West might get fucked up because of it,

1052
01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:43,240
Speaker 11: but I'm focused on this now. Obviously, in practice that

1053
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:47,680
Speaker 11: would be chaos probably, But you know, he just saw

1054
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:48,920
Speaker 11: it the way he saw it, and that was that.

1055
01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 2: The cavalier attitude Stark seems to have had how his

1056
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:55,720
Speaker 2: invention might be used is of course worthy of criticism.

1057
01:02:56,120 --> 01:02:58,480
Speaker 2: But the revolutionaries on the ground in me Anmar were

1058
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:01,440
Speaker 2: not concerned with ideal life logical debates over the ethics

1059
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:04,919
Speaker 2: of homemade firearms. They needed guns, and they needed them now.

1060
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:09,440
Speaker 2: J Stark's FGC nine, which stands for Fuck Gun Control

1061
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:12,520
Speaker 2: nine millimeter, was simple to make, easy to use, and

1062
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:15,440
Speaker 2: relied entirely on parts you could print or buy in

1063
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:18,920
Speaker 2: any hardware store. In September of twenty twenty one, a

1064
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 2: post popped up on the foss cads subreddit, which is

1065
01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 2: dedicated to the manufacturing of three D printed guns. Stark

1066
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 2: is a hero there. The post said, wanted to say

1067
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 2: thanks to this community, the creators of FGC nine and

1068
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 2: the various mods when we could, you guys are literally

1069
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:37,160
Speaker 2: empowering the armed revolution against dictators in one of the

1070
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:40,919
Speaker 2: most underdeveloped countries. We are now equipped with FGC nine

1071
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:43,960
Speaker 2: and starting the armed revolution to the coup leader dictator.

1072
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 2: As one poster comments, the account quote went from posting

1073
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:50,520
Speaker 2: about mobile games to how to three D print SMGs

1074
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:53,360
Speaker 2: to desperately asking people to pay attention what was happening

1075
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:56,680
Speaker 2: in me and mar Then after the FGC nine post

1076
01:03:56,920 --> 01:04:01,520
Speaker 2: it was deleted entirely. Never lived to see this.

1077
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 11: He would have loved it. What everything that he was doing.

1078
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:10,040
Speaker 11: That was the main focus in my opinion, that like,

1079
01:04:10,120 --> 01:04:15,960
Speaker 11: it couldn't be a more perfect, like practical actual realization

1080
01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 11: of its project. You couldn't pick a more perfect version

1081
01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 11: of it to happen like that, you know. And there's

1082
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:24,080
Speaker 11: a lot of talk of oh where there's a lot

1083
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:27,480
Speaker 11: of drug dealers in Amsterdam. I have FGC nine's. There

1084
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:29,760
Speaker 11: was a NATS he recently arrested with one.

1085
01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:30,400
Speaker 8: You know.

1086
01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:34,200
Speaker 11: These people are awful, of course, But the most prevalent

1087
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:37,440
Speaker 11: use of the FGC nine, at least from what I've observed,

1088
01:04:37,760 --> 01:04:41,000
Speaker 11: has been from the rebels in my Ammam making them.

1089
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:43,040
Speaker 11: I think I've seen like thirty of them so far,

1090
01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:44,840
Speaker 11: you know, that's a lot of them, And there was

1091
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:47,480
Speaker 11: one was found stashed in a bush. My theory is

1092
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:49,880
Speaker 11: they're left around for ambush attacks and areas that are

1093
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:53,480
Speaker 11: not as fully controlled by the rebels.

1094
01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:59,040
Speaker 1: Fostcred, a community of mostly US based gun printers, lost

1095
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:02,040
Speaker 1: its collective mind, and it didn't take long for people

1096
01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:04,480
Speaker 1: to make the connection between the post and a desperate

1097
01:05:04,520 --> 01:05:08,760
Speaker 1: plight of me and Mars Spring Revolution. Soon after the post,

1098
01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:13,560
Speaker 1: the Tatmador started posting pictures of FGC nines, often without sights,

1099
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:18,120
Speaker 1: captured from fighters in Yangon. On the twenty first of September,

1100
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:24,280
Speaker 1: Tatmador's Ministry of Information released a statement I Miat Thwei

1101
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:28,720
Speaker 1: and Ye mint Ang were found with an FGC nine

1102
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:33,400
Speaker 1: Mark two pistol five rounds of nine millimeters ammunition. They

1103
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:38,400
Speaker 1: were arrested along with their drone. The military alleged they

1104
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:41,000
Speaker 1: were in an urban unit from the same generation z

1105
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:44,480
Speaker 1: E Freedom ARMI that Zor was a part of. That

1106
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 1: same month, the military posted pictures of three more captured

1107
01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:52,200
Speaker 1: FGC nines, suggesting that at least five have been captured

1108
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:57,600
Speaker 1: by late September. Then two months later, a new post

1109
01:05:57,600 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 1: popped up and the foscad subreddit, Hey I'm back, and

1110
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:03,760
Speaker 1: the guy who posted a thank you note back in

1111
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:07,760
Speaker 1: September here Now that the FGC nines are ready known

1112
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:10,480
Speaker 1: by the dictator, I can proudly announce that we're from

1113
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:14,040
Speaker 1: me and marh. Yes, we are mass producing FGC nines

1114
01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:17,240
Speaker 1: to fight back against the Dictator. More info about our

1115
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:21,880
Speaker 1: production will be published later this time, the user u

1116
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:28,120
Speaker 1: slash daddy UMCD hung around to answer questions. Those basters

1117
01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 1: didn't know we had the tech back then. Now that

1118
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:33,000
Speaker 1: everything is in public, we can proudly say we're from

1119
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:36,600
Speaker 1: me and Mar. We are mostly responsible for production and

1120
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:39,640
Speaker 1: R and D, even though we also involved in other

1121
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:42,760
Speaker 1: ground missions. We distribute the FDC nine to a lot

1122
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:46,400
Speaker 1: of different urban guerrillas in urban and rural areas. Some

1123
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:48,919
Speaker 1: of the units got arrested a few weeks ago, which

1124
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:51,720
Speaker 1: you might have already seen on the subreddit. Apart from

1125
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:54,760
Speaker 1: the FGC nine, there are other equipments and weapons that

1126
01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:58,080
Speaker 1: are being produced with three D printers, he wrote. He

1127
01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:02,000
Speaker 1: said his team we're residing in ethnic armed organization areas,

1128
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:06,360
Speaker 1: mainly the Koren National Union and the Kachin Independence Army

1129
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:10,520
Speaker 1: controlled zones. He posted that they'd tried other three D

1130
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:13,920
Speaker 1: printer designs, such as the PLASTICOV, which is a printed

1131
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:17,520
Speaker 1: AK forty seven receiver, but getting the other parts made

1132
01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:21,760
Speaker 1: it impractical. By contrast, the FGC nine could be made

1133
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:25,320
Speaker 1: entirely using a three D printer and some hardware store parts.

1134
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:29,800
Speaker 1: According to another source, ME and Mars small motorcycle repair

1135
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:32,080
Speaker 1: shops made quick work at the metal barrels and bolts.

1136
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:36,880
Speaker 1: Electrochemical machining was used to make more barrels. They also

1137
01:07:36,960 --> 01:07:39,640
Speaker 1: had the chance to buy a few clock barrels from Thailand,

1138
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:43,520
Speaker 1: Daddy UMCD said, but those cost a lot more than

1139
01:07:43,520 --> 01:07:48,680
Speaker 1: the FGC nine barrels. While his account continued to post,

1140
01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:52,240
Speaker 1: the military continued to share photos of captured FGC nines.

1141
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:55,800
Speaker 1: Three workshops that have been using lathes to make the

1142
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:59,040
Speaker 1: barrels for raided. A photos of three more captured guns

1143
01:07:59,080 --> 01:08:03,560
Speaker 1: popped up in November, alongside bolt action rifles. It still

1144
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:06,000
Speaker 1: had stickers on their stocks from what looked like US

1145
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:12,120
Speaker 1: gun shops. Production and decentralized locations continued despite the raids,

1146
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:16,679
Speaker 1: while other groups fought on with homemade revolving rifles, crewde

1147
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:22,360
Speaker 1: homemade wooden stocks, and other improvised weapons. A telegram channel

1148
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 1: with instructions in Burmese on how to make the guns

1149
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:27,920
Speaker 1: made sure that even when one shop or gunsmith was

1150
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:31,599
Speaker 1: taken out of the fight. The knowledge wasn't lost. Although

1151
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:34,960
Speaker 1: filament for their three D printers were becoming harder to get,

1152
01:08:35,320 --> 01:08:40,760
Speaker 1: they'd stockpiled a lot in advance. Daddy UMCD tried to

1153
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:46,120
Speaker 1: manufacture automatic FGC nines and another printable model called Professor

1154
01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:49,840
Speaker 1: Parabellum Square tubes are machine gun, but nothing else seemed

1155
01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:53,240
Speaker 1: as easier as reliable as the FGC nun Of course

1156
01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 1: read it. Being read it, people questioned the veracity and

1157
01:08:56,280 --> 01:09:01,240
Speaker 1: utility of his posts. He responded, FDC nines are just

1158
01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:03,600
Speaker 1: part of the game because they could be produced with

1159
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:06,800
Speaker 1: what we have are the lowest cost available rifles of

1160
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:09,479
Speaker 1: four thousand to seven thousand US dollars at our border.

1161
01:09:10,280 --> 01:09:14,400
Speaker 1: Fgcs are under one hundred dollars. Rifle parts are ten

1162
01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:18,519
Speaker 1: times more expensive than parts. To all those who are

1163
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:21,280
Speaker 1: saying that these photos of sus we don't want to

1164
01:09:21,320 --> 01:09:24,160
Speaker 1: blame your suspicion. If an if you remember the thread

1165
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:27,000
Speaker 1: I posted in September, you will remember that we are

1166
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:30,160
Speaker 1: mass producing FGC knights. The ones in the photos you've

1167
01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:32,840
Speaker 1: seen were supplied by us. There are many groups like

1168
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:35,200
Speaker 1: this now we do the main production, just like I

1169
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:39,960
Speaker 1: explained in September. Then Daddy UMCD went on to thank

1170
01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:42,960
Speaker 1: the other members of the subreddit, claiming their active help

1171
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:45,760
Speaker 1: was your only reason he and other revolutionaries have been

1172
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:49,280
Speaker 1: able to overcome certain technical issues. We wouldn't be here

1173
01:09:49,280 --> 01:09:52,360
Speaker 1: without you, guys, especially with someone who shared with me.

1174
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:55,040
Speaker 1: The buffer spring and fire control groups bring the measurements,

1175
01:09:55,320 --> 01:10:00,320
Speaker 1: he said. By late November, photos of FGC nineis in

1176
01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:03,400
Speaker 1: the hands of fighters emerged and they shared sites. This

1177
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:08,559
Speaker 1: time they had longer barrels and homemade suppressors too. The

1178
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:11,639
Speaker 1: FDC nines were apparently used by urban units for close

1179
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:14,800
Speaker 1: up fighting and for the training of new fighters, since

1180
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:17,280
Speaker 1: they have essentially the same controls as an AR fifteen

1181
01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:20,240
Speaker 1: or M sixteen rifle, both of which are common in

1182
01:10:20,280 --> 01:10:24,080
Speaker 1: ME and r's rebel units. We have successfully streamlined a

1183
01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:29,480
Speaker 1: variety of techniques to produce FGC nine one thousand plus efficiently.

1184
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:34,760
Speaker 1: Our primary forces arequipped with proper rifles. FDC nines are

1185
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:37,800
Speaker 1: for guerrilla warfare. We started using those in hit and

1186
01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:41,439
Speaker 1: run and Special Task Force missions too. We don't share

1187
01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:43,800
Speaker 1: much about the missions to the public yet, it will

1188
01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:46,960
Speaker 1: definitely come, and when it does, are updated here. If

1189
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:52,120
Speaker 1: I'm still alive haha, wrote daddly Umcd on the foscat subreddit.

1190
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:57,560
Speaker 1: Even with production and full swing, ammunition remained a problem.

1191
01:10:58,080 --> 01:11:02,160
Speaker 1: Although some regions can produce twenty two and nine millimeter

1192
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:06,080
Speaker 1: a home. According to daddy Umcd, five five six can

1193
01:11:06,120 --> 01:11:08,919
Speaker 1: be purchased in large quantities at the border with Thailand,

1194
01:11:09,000 --> 01:11:13,000
Speaker 1: but it isn't cheap. Instead, the PDF relied on raiding

1195
01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:15,880
Speaker 1: police and military outposts in the same way the EEOS

1196
01:11:15,920 --> 01:11:19,559
Speaker 1: had for years. Nine millimeter is the most common center

1197
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:23,200
Speaker 1: fire pistol around in the world. That's why Deterrent's Dispense

1198
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:27,240
Speaker 1: picked it for the FGC nine. Seized weapons often only

1199
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:30,519
Speaker 1: have a handful of rounds, but that's enough to kill

1200
01:11:30,520 --> 01:11:33,680
Speaker 1: a soldier and take his weapon. Jay Stark might not

1201
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:36,559
Speaker 1: have been around to see his invention used to fight tyranny,

1202
01:11:37,240 --> 01:11:39,519
Speaker 1: but Hanrahan thinks he would have been happy with the results.

1203
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:42,400
Speaker 11: He would have been made up. I think that's everything

1204
01:11:42,479 --> 01:11:44,920
Speaker 11: he wanted to achieve. You know what I'm saying, That

1205
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:47,200
Speaker 11: really is everything you wanted to do.

1206
01:11:47,600 --> 01:11:50,960
Speaker 1: Even the National Unity Government mir Mar's government in exile

1207
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:53,439
Speaker 1: has come around to at least some of Jay Stark's

1208
01:11:53,439 --> 01:11:57,600
Speaker 1: ways of thinking. According to Daddy umcd our Minister of

1209
01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:00,920
Speaker 1: Defense Minister already promised about the right to bare arms

1210
01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:02,280
Speaker 1: in the first day of the revolution.

1211
01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:07,480
Speaker 2: Promises made by revolutionary governments are not exactly solid commitments,

1212
01:12:07,760 --> 01:12:09,640
Speaker 2: but it's not hard to see why a generation of

1213
01:12:09,720 --> 01:12:13,000
Speaker 2: kids like Zaw, forged by an asymmetrical conflict with a

1214
01:12:13,040 --> 01:12:16,599
Speaker 2: government that possessed a near absolute advantage in armaments, might

1215
01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:20,000
Speaker 2: be committed to staying armed even if they win. At

1216
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:22,280
Speaker 2: the moment, the future of their struggle is very much

1217
01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:25,160
Speaker 2: in doubt. Scrolling through Facebook photos of Zaw and his

1218
01:12:25,240 --> 01:12:29,120
Speaker 2: comrades is a surreal experience. They look not just young

1219
01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:33,000
Speaker 2: soldiers mostly look young, but they look like students kids

1220
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 2: from some weirdly militarized university. Photos on Facebook show them

1221
01:12:37,280 --> 01:12:40,919
Speaker 2: sprawled out together in the grass and camo fatigues bearing rifles,

1222
01:12:41,120 --> 01:12:43,719
Speaker 2: but each glued to their phones as they cuddle in together.

1223
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:47,120
Speaker 2: Zaw and his girlfriend, who he described to us as

1224
01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:50,839
Speaker 2: the girl I love, fought alongside each other until January

1225
01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:51,840
Speaker 2: seventh of this year.

1226
01:12:52,439 --> 01:12:57,320
Speaker 5: The battle that we started, she was coming within and

1227
01:12:57,680 --> 01:13:00,920
Speaker 5: you know, as half a sense of weapons landed near

1228
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:05,200
Speaker 5: her and it hit her like so their bone broke,

1229
01:13:05,760 --> 01:13:08,240
Speaker 5: so she had to go to the hospital.

1230
01:13:08,640 --> 01:13:11,360
Speaker 2: Three D printed and homemade guns have helped, but Zae

1231
01:13:11,360 --> 01:13:14,040
Speaker 2: and his friends are still fighting against a modern military

1232
01:13:14,120 --> 01:13:18,120
Speaker 2: with planes, night vision goggles, and tanks. Despite this, more

1233
01:13:18,120 --> 01:13:20,720
Speaker 2: than a year after the coup, they're still fighting and

1234
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:24,000
Speaker 2: more soldiers deffect to join them weekly. It's hard to

1235
01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:27,160
Speaker 2: see what victory looks like. The cities will be another

1236
01:13:27,200 --> 01:13:30,240
Speaker 2: battle altogether, But in the jungle camp where Zaw video

1237
01:13:30,360 --> 01:13:32,960
Speaker 2: calls us from, it's impossible to see what giving up

1238
01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:36,679
Speaker 2: might look like. Either he's still fighting, his girlfriend is healing,

1239
01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:39,040
Speaker 2: and they're both committed to staying out in the jungle

1240
01:13:39,320 --> 01:13:42,120
Speaker 2: until they are in their freedom back or die a trying.

1241
01:13:56,360 --> 01:13:58,880
Speaker 2: I'm Robert Evans and this is part four of me

1242
01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:01,000
Speaker 2: and mar printing the revolution.

1243
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:04,000
Speaker 5: And then once we got there we could in rest,

1244
01:14:04,240 --> 01:14:07,640
Speaker 5: you know, rain, sun whatever. Women as well, we were

1245
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:12,400
Speaker 5: all like try when they came when we were leaving,

1246
01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:16,200
Speaker 5: they were all like very fair skinned, beautiful, and then

1247
01:14:16,360 --> 01:14:19,639
Speaker 5: we went in and then everyone got tanned. In the jungle,

1248
01:14:20,160 --> 01:14:23,479
Speaker 5: we're training all the time. You know, people in training

1249
01:14:23,520 --> 01:14:26,439
Speaker 5: camp were driven reallypart and the reason that we were

1250
01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:29,559
Speaker 5: all doing this is because of Minile nine School. As

1251
01:14:29,640 --> 01:14:33,600
Speaker 5: students and how much he has terrorized the public and

1252
01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:36,439
Speaker 5: the people. And that's why we were we have this

1253
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:39,800
Speaker 5: morale and the ability to get through the training and

1254
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:42,480
Speaker 5: be able to wield weapons.

1255
01:14:42,840 --> 01:14:46,560
Speaker 1: Zora and his friends went into the jungleist students, programmers

1256
01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:51,400
Speaker 1: and kids. Now they're fighters. They would tech savvy young people,

1257
01:14:51,439 --> 01:14:55,120
Speaker 1: he says, they grew up online and that generational divide

1258
01:14:55,240 --> 01:14:57,639
Speaker 1: was the Internet brought here came much later in Miamah.

1259
01:14:58,360 --> 01:15:02,720
Speaker 1: It wasn't until twenty eleven that people really gained accest internet.

1260
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:06,280
Speaker 1: With it the new ideas and identities that they brought.

1261
01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:09,639
Speaker 1: So as generation are among the first to embrace global

1262
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:14,320
Speaker 1: connectivity and now after having it taken away, they're refusing

1263
01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:14,880
Speaker 1: to give it up.

1264
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:19,800
Speaker 5: The start of the coup in February, the military, well

1265
01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:22,800
Speaker 5: gen Z was organizing online, social media and all that,

1266
01:15:24,200 --> 01:15:26,400
Speaker 5: and they were kind of I think this is from

1267
01:15:26,439 --> 01:15:33,000
Speaker 5: my experience, but kind of organizing around like gen Z

1268
01:15:33,320 --> 01:15:36,040
Speaker 5: is going to be different than the eightya generation because

1269
01:15:36,080 --> 01:15:39,679
Speaker 5: we have the Internet and also we know more about

1270
01:15:39,680 --> 01:15:41,720
Speaker 5: the world and can come communicate to the rest of

1271
01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:44,680
Speaker 5: the world. I think one thing that was big was

1272
01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:47,800
Speaker 5: that in two thousand and eight, it just took one

1273
01:15:47,920 --> 01:15:50,680
Speaker 5: video leaking out of the country for there to be

1274
01:15:50,920 --> 01:15:52,960
Speaker 5: big international repercussions.

1275
01:15:53,160 --> 01:15:55,679
Speaker 1: It's worth noting that when people in Burma talk about

1276
01:15:55,680 --> 01:15:59,480
Speaker 1: the Internet, they mean Facebook. Phones come with a Facebook

1277
01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:04,519
Speaker 1: app installed and it's sometimes exempt from data charges. For

1278
01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:08,080
Speaker 1: many people in Burma, using the internet means using Facebook.

1279
01:16:09,120 --> 01:16:11,320
Speaker 1: Zora and his friends are different from their parents in

1280
01:16:11,360 --> 01:16:14,240
Speaker 1: many ways, not at least in their perceptions of authority.

1281
01:16:14,640 --> 01:16:17,120
Speaker 1: This has led to a situation where the PDF people's

1282
01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:20,519
Speaker 1: defense force units are much less hierarchical than units of

1283
01:16:20,560 --> 01:16:21,160
Speaker 1: the Tamador.

1284
01:16:21,479 --> 01:16:26,679
Speaker 5: So when we make decisions in our group, there's no

1285
01:16:26,880 --> 01:16:29,600
Speaker 5: master and student. There's no teacher and student. But you

1286
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:33,680
Speaker 5: know the way that it works, there are people who

1287
01:16:33,720 --> 01:16:37,320
Speaker 5: are good, they're older, people who are more trained, and

1288
01:16:37,360 --> 01:16:39,920
Speaker 5: then there are new recruits, new people who just came in.

1289
01:16:40,400 --> 01:16:42,679
Speaker 5: So of course the people who are there for longer

1290
01:16:42,680 --> 01:16:45,720
Speaker 5: and know more about the situation have more voice and

1291
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:50,120
Speaker 5: when we discuss so especially people who were there when

1292
01:16:50,120 --> 01:16:53,559
Speaker 5: we founded this group. There were only really eight people

1293
01:16:53,640 --> 01:16:56,599
Speaker 5: from when we group, so those eight people kind of

1294
01:16:56,640 --> 01:17:02,040
Speaker 5: discussed on the bigger strategy. You know, we don't really

1295
01:17:02,200 --> 01:17:06,800
Speaker 5: vote there, he says, he wants to do it. He

1296
01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:10,479
Speaker 5: thinks it is good. We are there's the seven of

1297
01:17:10,560 --> 01:17:13,400
Speaker 5: us we think is good, or we support him, or

1298
01:17:13,439 --> 01:17:16,240
Speaker 5: someone says, well, we don't really like that idea, then

1299
01:17:16,240 --> 01:17:16,960
Speaker 5: we don't do it.

1300
01:17:17,240 --> 01:17:20,120
Speaker 1: They try to achieve more gender quality as well. Those

1301
01:17:20,160 --> 01:17:22,280
Speaker 1: are explained that in his unit, the women are not

1302
01:17:22,320 --> 01:17:23,799
Speaker 1: always the frontline fighters.

1303
01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:28,360
Speaker 5: That's the place there's no discrimination. You know, women can

1304
01:17:28,960 --> 01:17:33,240
Speaker 5: women and men were training whoever could come. But like

1305
01:17:33,320 --> 01:17:38,400
Speaker 5: on the battlefield, people, we don't use women that much

1306
01:17:38,400 --> 01:17:42,439
Speaker 5: on the battlefield. That's one thing that we do know

1307
01:17:42,680 --> 01:17:45,920
Speaker 5: is that it's not it's not really discrimination. But if

1308
01:17:46,040 --> 01:17:52,559
Speaker 5: women are with us together, we have a confusion about

1309
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:54,920
Speaker 5: whether we need to protect them or we're just fighting

1310
01:17:54,960 --> 01:17:59,040
Speaker 5: with them or they're fighting in front of us. And

1311
01:17:59,680 --> 01:18:04,880
Speaker 5: that there's one thing that is very different is that

1312
01:18:05,439 --> 01:18:11,559
Speaker 5: in terms of mentality, we can't. We never take the

1313
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:16,559
Speaker 5: women out really far into very dangerous fights. So often

1314
01:18:16,600 --> 01:18:20,439
Speaker 5: they're in the back as backup or to supplies or

1315
01:18:20,520 --> 01:18:24,639
Speaker 5: things like that. But as you know, the military government,

1316
01:18:25,040 --> 01:18:30,280
Speaker 5: the military terrorists are very very very unethical. They don't

1317
01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:32,840
Speaker 5: follow the rules, so you know they're going to shoot

1318
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:36,000
Speaker 5: whoever they see. So even if they're hanging back and

1319
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:39,320
Speaker 5: they're sending medical supplies. They can still get hit.

1320
01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:42,400
Speaker 1: For Zora in particular, there's a lot at stake. After

1321
01:18:42,439 --> 01:18:44,800
Speaker 1: almost an hour and a half of talking, I asked

1322
01:18:44,800 --> 01:18:48,000
Speaker 1: about his parents. I'd heard of retribution attacks against the

1323
01:18:48,040 --> 01:18:50,479
Speaker 1: families of fighters and wondered if he was worried about that.

1324
01:18:50,880 --> 01:18:54,839
Speaker 5: So mom and dad are both they support me fighting

1325
01:18:54,920 --> 01:18:59,599
Speaker 5: them against the military. They're very happy. Is that really

1326
01:18:59,600 --> 01:19:03,320
Speaker 5: wants to CDUM, but he can't run away because the

1327
01:19:03,360 --> 01:19:10,800
Speaker 5: military has taken his mother and his sisters. He still

1328
01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:15,160
Speaker 5: has five sisters. They're all still in that military command

1329
01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:19,919
Speaker 5: their work, they're in the military school schools, so it's

1330
01:19:20,040 --> 01:19:24,920
Speaker 5: very hard for them to run away, right hect So

1331
01:19:24,960 --> 01:19:27,799
Speaker 5: he really wants to leave the military, but he can't.

1332
01:19:27,920 --> 01:19:32,400
Speaker 5: So while so that the fact that I am there

1333
01:19:32,439 --> 01:19:36,960
Speaker 5: trying to fight against the military, is very happy, but

1334
01:19:37,160 --> 01:19:40,960
Speaker 5: he tells me to be careful about my own life.

1335
01:19:41,080 --> 01:19:44,480
Speaker 5: They're supportive and they really want to come fight themselves,

1336
01:19:44,520 --> 01:19:46,920
Speaker 5: but they can't because of my sisters and my mother.

1337
01:19:47,880 --> 01:19:50,320
Speaker 5: So and seeing that I can do it, it's really

1338
01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:56,600
Speaker 5: wonderful for them. So his father, his father, brother, and

1339
01:19:56,760 --> 01:20:01,080
Speaker 5: other people three of them below him. They have all

1340
01:20:01,479 --> 01:20:06,240
Speaker 5: usually just lived together with his grandfather and stuff in

1341
01:20:06,280 --> 01:20:09,800
Speaker 5: the military from pounds or near the military. So he

1342
01:20:09,880 --> 01:20:12,040
Speaker 5: really wants to call all the people that are still there,

1343
01:20:12,120 --> 01:20:13,160
Speaker 5: but they can't leave.

1344
01:20:13,640 --> 01:20:16,160
Speaker 1: This is what civil wood does. Traps us in a

1345
01:20:16,200 --> 01:20:19,200
Speaker 1: situation where we can't make the right choice even when

1346
01:20:19,240 --> 01:20:22,559
Speaker 1: we know what it is, and in many situations it's

1347
01:20:22,600 --> 01:20:24,920
Speaker 1: pretty hard to discern right from wrong. In the midst

1348
01:20:24,920 --> 01:20:27,920
Speaker 1: of so much violence, Zaul has been able to fight,

1349
01:20:28,479 --> 01:20:31,200
Speaker 1: but his dad is stuck fighting against people like his

1350
01:20:31,280 --> 01:20:35,280
Speaker 1: son in order to protect his daughters. Thousands of families

1351
01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:38,360
Speaker 1: across the country divided in the same way by circumstance

1352
01:20:38,560 --> 01:20:42,560
Speaker 1: or ideology. The military is something of a separate society.

1353
01:20:42,720 --> 01:20:45,200
Speaker 1: It has its own schools and its own culture. But

1354
01:20:45,280 --> 01:20:49,160
Speaker 1: ethnic armed organizations have not been close to urban populations either,

1355
01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:52,400
Speaker 1: and so whole new identities have been forged by Generation

1356
01:20:52,600 --> 01:20:56,320
Speaker 1: Z while their families often struggle to abandon all certainties.

1357
01:20:57,040 --> 01:20:59,880
Speaker 2: As we record this, Zau is still fighting. His girl

1358
01:21:00,040 --> 01:21:02,680
Speaker 2: friend is still healing. Every few weeks a video of

1359
01:21:02,720 --> 01:21:05,000
Speaker 2: him and his friends pops up on Reddit or Facebook.

1360
01:21:05,360 --> 01:21:07,519
Speaker 2: They have optics on their rifles now and are taking

1361
01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:10,120
Speaker 2: long range shots at the top Mada who rely on

1362
01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:13,880
Speaker 2: iron sights they shoot and reload like soldiers, and they

1363
01:21:14,000 --> 01:21:17,679
Speaker 2: laugh like kids. The top Madaw still controls the cities,

1364
01:21:17,880 --> 01:21:19,800
Speaker 2: but to move between them they have to travel in

1365
01:21:19,880 --> 01:21:24,000
Speaker 2: convoys at breakneck speeds, using ambushes, mines and knowledge of

1366
01:21:24,040 --> 01:21:27,120
Speaker 2: the terrain. EAOs and the PDF are able to deny

1367
01:21:27,200 --> 01:21:31,320
Speaker 2: the military access to large portions of the countryside. Without

1368
01:21:31,320 --> 01:21:33,840
Speaker 2: a serious change in the conflict, it might stay like

1369
01:21:33,920 --> 01:21:37,439
Speaker 2: this for years. A report published this month detailed the

1370
01:21:37,439 --> 01:21:40,320
Speaker 2: attacks in the Karini state by the tot Madaw on churches,

1371
01:21:40,520 --> 01:21:44,120
Speaker 2: residential homes, camps for displaced people, which killed sixty one

1372
01:21:44,160 --> 01:21:47,120
Speaker 2: in the months since Saw left the city on Christmas Eve.

1373
01:21:47,439 --> 01:21:51,440
Speaker 2: In Upruso's township, they killed at least forty civilians. Autopsies

1374
01:21:51,479 --> 01:21:55,200
Speaker 2: show some were gagged and burned alive. In recent months,

1375
01:21:55,240 --> 01:21:57,559
Speaker 2: the tot Mada has increased its use of air strikes

1376
01:21:57,600 --> 01:22:01,200
Speaker 2: against targets that it deems legitimate. Ming An Hlang, the

1377
01:22:01,280 --> 01:22:04,599
Speaker 2: junta's leader, flew to Russia twice. In twenty twenty one.

1378
01:22:04,880 --> 01:22:08,400
Speaker 2: He was proclaimed an honorary professor of the Military University

1379
01:22:08,439 --> 01:22:12,040
Speaker 2: of the Russian Armed Forces. Quote. We are determined to

1380
01:22:12,040 --> 01:22:14,760
Speaker 2: continue our efforts to strengthen bilateral ties based on the

1381
01:22:14,840 --> 01:22:18,240
Speaker 2: mutual understanding, respect and trust that have been established between

1382
01:22:18,240 --> 01:22:22,040
Speaker 2: our two countries, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said at

1383
01:22:22,040 --> 01:22:24,360
Speaker 2: a meeting with the coup leader on June twenty second.

1384
01:22:24,720 --> 01:22:26,960
Speaker 2: We pay special attention to this meeting as we see

1385
01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:29,960
Speaker 2: Mianmar as a time tested strategic partner and a reliable

1386
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:32,760
Speaker 2: ally in Southeast Asia and the Asia Pacific region. He

1387
01:22:32,840 --> 01:22:36,639
Speaker 2: went on. Min Onnhlang was equally lavish with his praise,

1388
01:22:36,960 --> 01:22:40,560
Speaker 2: saying that he saw Russia as a friend forever. Mianmar

1389
01:22:40,640 --> 01:22:44,960
Speaker 2: relies heavily on Russian hind Mi I thirty five helicopter gunships,

1390
01:22:45,120 --> 01:22:48,840
Speaker 2: transport helicopters Mid twenty nine and SU thirty fighter jets

1391
01:22:48,880 --> 01:22:52,000
Speaker 2: and Yak one thirty ground attack aircraft to carry out

1392
01:22:52,040 --> 01:22:55,559
Speaker 2: bombing raids and straight civilians. All of these weapons systems

1393
01:22:55,600 --> 01:22:58,560
Speaker 2: have been seen more recently in the fighting in Ukraine.

1394
01:22:59,240 --> 01:23:02,800
Speaker 2: One prominent Ermese Irish family, the kiah Tongs, has helped

1395
01:23:02,840 --> 01:23:06,280
Speaker 2: the junta avoid an international arms embargo using their global

1396
01:23:06,280 --> 01:23:09,400
Speaker 2: connections and a network of shady shadow companies. They have

1397
01:23:09,439 --> 01:23:12,400
Speaker 2: purchased helicopters under the pretense of using them for tourism

1398
01:23:12,720 --> 01:23:15,240
Speaker 2: and the oil and gas industry and handed them over

1399
01:23:15,280 --> 01:23:18,479
Speaker 2: to the top MADA. They've also helped shuttle coastal radar

1400
01:23:18,560 --> 01:23:21,240
Speaker 2: to Myanmar, which the Top Medal used to track Rohinga

1401
01:23:21,280 --> 01:23:25,599
Speaker 2: refugees and provide cover for several aircraft purchases. To fund

1402
01:23:25,640 --> 01:23:28,679
Speaker 2: these armed purchases, the top Mada has found willing markets

1403
01:23:28,680 --> 01:23:32,400
Speaker 2: for luxury goods abroad. According to Justice for Meanmar, since

1404
01:23:32,400 --> 01:23:35,400
Speaker 2: the coup in February twenty twenty one, the United States

1405
01:23:35,439 --> 01:23:38,479
Speaker 2: has imported fifteen hundred and sixty five metric tons of

1406
01:23:38,520 --> 01:23:42,680
Speaker 2: teak from Myanmar, using intermediaries to avoid sanctions. In the

1407
01:23:42,680 --> 01:23:45,840
Speaker 2: twenty seventeen twenty eighteen financial year, the last year for

1408
01:23:45,840 --> 01:23:48,960
Speaker 2: which data is available, the government received one hundred million

1409
01:23:49,040 --> 01:23:52,000
Speaker 2: US dollars in revenue from taxes and royalties applied to

1410
01:23:52,040 --> 01:23:54,920
Speaker 2: the timber trade. In twenty twenty one, there were more

1411
01:23:54,960 --> 01:23:58,439
Speaker 2: shipments than twenty eighteen, offering the top Madal the chance

1412
01:23:58,479 --> 01:24:01,439
Speaker 2: to make enough money to continue purchasing weapons to use

1413
01:24:01,479 --> 01:24:05,840
Speaker 2: against their population. The conflict in the NMAR remains complicated.

1414
01:24:06,200 --> 01:24:08,799
Speaker 2: It's easy to reduce the alphabet super of revel groups,

1415
01:24:08,800 --> 01:24:11,439
Speaker 2: the EOS and the PDF, but these groups and their

1416
01:24:11,439 --> 01:24:14,840
Speaker 2: motivations are diverse. Pierre explained to us that even within

1417
01:24:14,840 --> 01:24:16,720
Speaker 2: the Korean there are deep divisions.

1418
01:24:16,840 --> 01:24:20,759
Speaker 4: Well, first, you have to know that historically the Karen

1419
01:24:21,160 --> 01:24:25,800
Speaker 4: Rebellion that started in nineteen forty eight, nineteen forty nine,

1420
01:24:26,640 --> 01:24:31,160
Speaker 4: so quite a long time ago, was led by Christian

1421
01:24:31,439 --> 01:24:37,240
Speaker 4: by the Christian minority of the Kharan people, because obviously

1422
01:24:37,320 --> 01:24:42,000
Speaker 4: that was the most Western educated people.

1423
01:24:43,840 --> 01:24:44,599
Speaker 8: At the time.

1424
01:24:45,600 --> 01:24:49,760
Speaker 4: And so this eliot kind of reproduced itself in the

1425
01:24:50,080 --> 01:24:55,880
Speaker 4: new without being the CANU is. The Karen National Union

1426
01:24:57,880 --> 01:25:03,240
Speaker 4: is a democratic movement, but you know, elits tend to

1427
01:25:03,320 --> 01:25:08,679
Speaker 4: reproduce themselves. And so most of the leadership, let's say,

1428
01:25:08,720 --> 01:25:13,919
Speaker 4: of the Karen National Union and the Karen National Liberation Army.

1429
01:25:15,560 --> 01:25:18,880
Speaker 8: Was Christian Like.

1430
01:25:20,760 --> 01:25:29,760
Speaker 4: And so the Burmese Junta, the Burmese military government, decided

1431
01:25:30,000 --> 01:25:35,760
Speaker 4: to use this to create a wedge between between the

1432
01:25:35,880 --> 01:25:41,719
Speaker 4: Karen Christians and the Karran Buddhists UH and sent monks

1433
01:25:41,760 --> 01:25:48,000
Speaker 4: to say, agitate and try to cause this split on

1434
01:25:48,320 --> 01:25:53,200
Speaker 4: religious grounds no UH, And they succeeded in parts and

1435
01:25:53,560 --> 01:25:59,439
Speaker 4: succeeded to separate a part of Karent Buddhists that created

1436
01:25:59,520 --> 01:26:07,639
Speaker 4: the the Democratic Karen Buddhist Army d B, which then

1437
01:26:08,240 --> 01:26:10,240
Speaker 4: I like themselves of course.

1438
01:26:10,040 --> 01:26:14,840
Speaker 8: To the to the junta and to.

1439
01:26:15,400 --> 01:26:19,840
Speaker 4: Attack the to attack the Kinnel and the Manor Clow,

1440
01:26:19,920 --> 01:26:22,960
Speaker 4: which of course they knew all the all the roads

1441
01:26:22,960 --> 01:26:27,240
Speaker 4: there and the defenses and where was the defense is situated,

1442
01:26:27,280 --> 01:26:31,280
Speaker 4: et cetera, and succeeded in destroying the capital of the

1443
01:26:32,320 --> 01:26:33,400
Speaker 4: Karen National.

1444
01:26:33,120 --> 01:26:35,400
Speaker 8: Union in Manorplot in ninety five.

1445
01:26:36,400 --> 01:26:40,320
Speaker 4: So that was the situation pretty much when I arrived,

1446
01:26:41,280 --> 01:26:48,200
Speaker 4: it was pretty hard like there was not so much

1447
01:26:48,360 --> 01:26:53,800
Speaker 4: territory anymore held by the Karen and more more importantly,

1448
01:26:53,920 --> 01:26:57,360
Speaker 4: they lost a lot of income because a lot of

1449
01:26:57,400 --> 01:27:01,080
Speaker 4: their income come from a tax at the border, a

1450
01:27:01,200 --> 01:27:02,599
Speaker 4: Zecan contour, you know.

1451
01:27:04,200 --> 01:27:06,479
Speaker 8: So yeah, that was the situation.

1452
01:27:07,080 --> 01:27:10,839
Speaker 2: Not every EAO has embraced the National Unity Government directly,

1453
01:27:11,200 --> 01:27:14,160
Speaker 2: after all, many of its members were enthusiastically running cover

1454
01:27:14,240 --> 01:27:17,160
Speaker 2: for the Rohinga genocide a few years ago. Many of

1455
01:27:17,200 --> 01:27:20,320
Speaker 2: the EAOs remain technically under a ceasefire with the top

1456
01:27:20,360 --> 01:27:22,679
Speaker 2: Meda and the top MADA knows that if it pushes

1457
01:27:22,760 --> 01:27:26,200
Speaker 2: too far into EO territory, it risks provoking a full

1458
01:27:26,240 --> 01:27:30,080
Speaker 2: blown response. The EAOs, meanwhile, have been aiding and training

1459
01:27:30,120 --> 01:27:33,439
Speaker 2: the PDF and still maintaining enough deniability that the top

1460
01:27:33,479 --> 01:27:37,599
Speaker 2: Meda has not been forced into a confrontation EAO PDF.

1461
01:27:37,640 --> 01:27:41,200
Speaker 2: Alliances look different in different regions, and often realities on

1462
01:27:41,240 --> 01:27:44,240
Speaker 2: the ground bear little relationship to the back door diplomacy

1463
01:27:44,240 --> 01:27:47,680
Speaker 2: and official stances embraced by leadership and public The.

1464
01:27:47,640 --> 01:27:50,799
Speaker 1: Wall continues to have a huge toll on civilians. According

1465
01:27:50,800 --> 01:27:53,759
Speaker 1: to United Nations, in total, some four hundred and forty

1466
01:27:53,800 --> 01:27:56,960
Speaker 1: thousand people have been newly displaced since the coup happened

1467
01:27:57,000 --> 01:28:00,400
Speaker 1: in February twenty twenty one, adding to an existing three

1468
01:28:00,439 --> 01:28:03,360
Speaker 1: hundred and seventy thousand who had fled their homes from

1469
01:28:03,400 --> 01:28:06,280
Speaker 1: earlier waves of violence and over a million people who

1470
01:28:06,280 --> 01:28:10,120
Speaker 1: had fled the Rahingia genocide. More than half the population

1471
01:28:10,240 --> 01:28:15,920
Speaker 1: of Kareni State has fled. Humanitarian access is hard. Much

1472
01:28:15,960 --> 01:28:19,840
Speaker 1: of the relief effort for displaced people occurs within local communities.

1473
01:28:21,360 --> 01:28:24,240
Speaker 1: Thousands of refugees a camp along the border with Thailand,

1474
01:28:24,640 --> 01:28:29,400
Speaker 1: which is defined by rivers. Initially, many people fled into Thailand,

1475
01:28:29,520 --> 01:28:32,400
Speaker 1: but terrible conditions in refugee camps led some of them

1476
01:28:32,400 --> 01:28:36,000
Speaker 1: to return to Me and Ma. Now they weighed across

1477
01:28:36,080 --> 01:28:38,960
Speaker 1: the river for international aid donations of food and water,

1478
01:28:39,479 --> 01:28:41,719
Speaker 1: but they can't bring themselves to stay in the crowded

1479
01:28:41,720 --> 01:28:44,720
Speaker 1: camps overnight, so they waded back to sleep on the

1480
01:28:44,720 --> 01:28:48,919
Speaker 1: Burmese side of the bank. The UNHCR, the High Commission

1481
01:28:48,960 --> 01:28:51,759
Speaker 1: on Refugees, it's been unable to access camps in Thailand

1482
01:28:52,160 --> 01:28:55,120
Speaker 1: or Me and Mah to check on the conditions, but

1483
01:28:55,160 --> 01:28:57,880
Speaker 1: it has urged a Thai government which has been credibly

1484
01:28:57,880 --> 01:29:00,840
Speaker 1: accused of forcing people back across the border, to move

1485
01:29:00,840 --> 01:29:03,840
Speaker 1: people to better conditions further into Thailand instead of keeping

1486
01:29:03,880 --> 01:29:06,320
Speaker 1: them in camps near the border. And here we find

1487
01:29:06,320 --> 01:29:09,360
Speaker 1: the unfortunate, unavoidable reality of the civil war in me

1488
01:29:09,439 --> 01:29:12,719
Speaker 1: and Mah. For all the uniqueness of aspects of the conflict,

1489
01:29:12,840 --> 01:29:16,240
Speaker 1: the innovative ways gen Z militias have interfaced with older

1490
01:29:16,280 --> 01:29:20,040
Speaker 1: ethnic military forces, the three D printed arms, etc. At

1491
01:29:20,040 --> 01:29:22,600
Speaker 1: the end of the day, this is another brutal, horrific

1492
01:29:22,680 --> 01:29:24,760
Speaker 1: conflict between large numbers of people who want to be

1493
01:29:24,880 --> 01:29:27,600
Speaker 1: free and a small number of people who want to

1494
01:29:27,600 --> 01:29:28,680
Speaker 1: control them.

1495
01:29:29,040 --> 01:29:29,920
Speaker 5: From Miah Mah.

1496
01:29:29,760 --> 01:29:34,960
Speaker 1: To Armenia, Ukraine, to Syria, Ethiopia to Iraq and beyond.

1497
01:29:35,600 --> 01:29:38,280
Speaker 1: The novelties of twenty first century conflict don't change the

1498
01:29:38,320 --> 01:29:40,679
Speaker 1: fact that at the end of the day. Each war

1499
01:29:40,760 --> 01:29:42,840
Speaker 1: brings with it what might be the truest symbol of

1500
01:29:42,880 --> 01:29:46,759
Speaker 1: our current age, parents saying goodbye to their kids, camps

1501
01:29:46,760 --> 01:29:50,320
Speaker 1: filled with desperate people fleeing violence, and governments all over

1502
01:29:50,360 --> 01:29:53,040
Speaker 1: the world willing to send nothing more than kind words

1503
01:29:53,200 --> 01:29:58,200
Speaker 1: and stern warnings. This is a PostScript to episode four.

1504
01:29:59,600 --> 01:30:02,479
Speaker 1: It's not but one that we'd been intending to record,

1505
01:30:02,560 --> 01:30:05,439
Speaker 1: because it's not news that we'd ever hoped to have.

1506
01:30:05,320 --> 01:30:06,040
Speaker 8: To share, But.

1507
01:30:07,479 --> 01:30:08,000
Speaker 5: Here we are.

1508
01:30:09,439 --> 01:30:12,320
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, we found out that about ten days after we

1509
01:30:12,360 --> 01:30:15,439
Speaker 1: last spoke, and a couple of weeks before we released

1510
01:30:15,439 --> 01:30:21,080
Speaker 1: our podcast, Zor died. And he died in battle fighting

1511
01:30:21,120 --> 01:30:29,320
Speaker 1: with the Tutmador. He's really was, I suppose, an amazingly

1512
01:30:29,360 --> 01:30:35,400
Speaker 1: brave and courageous young man, and I think that his

1513
01:30:35,520 --> 01:30:39,960
Speaker 1: loss is one that reflects the realities of of what

1514
01:30:40,160 --> 01:30:45,600
Speaker 1: war is, which is not great and glorious and exciting.

1515
01:30:45,840 --> 01:30:52,679
Speaker 1: It's young men and sometimes young women, young non binary folks,

1516
01:30:52,720 --> 01:30:58,000
Speaker 1: I imagine too, dying when they had no quarrel with anyone,

1517
01:30:58,160 --> 01:31:02,160
Speaker 1: when they just wanted to live their lives. Two years ago,

1518
01:31:02,520 --> 01:31:05,559
Speaker 1: a year and a half ago, even he was just

1519
01:31:05,640 --> 01:31:09,120
Speaker 1: loving the people, he loved, having fun, being a kid

1520
01:31:10,080 --> 01:31:13,080
Speaker 1: riding his motorcycle, speaking to his girlfriend on his phone,

1521
01:31:14,640 --> 01:31:18,519
Speaker 1: living a happy life. And then someone who had power

1522
01:31:18,520 --> 01:31:20,320
Speaker 1: decided that they wanted to have more power, and they

1523
01:31:20,320 --> 01:31:24,680
Speaker 1: decided that it didn't matter how many kids had to

1524
01:31:24,760 --> 01:31:28,519
Speaker 1: die so they could have what they want. And he

1525
01:31:28,600 --> 01:31:31,000
Speaker 1: decided to say no to that, And that's brave, and

1526
01:31:31,040 --> 01:31:34,200
Speaker 1: I think all of us would agree that what he

1527
01:31:34,240 --> 01:31:39,679
Speaker 1: did was right and morally courageous, and that we would

1528
01:31:39,720 --> 01:31:41,519
Speaker 1: hope to be brave enough to do the same if

1529
01:31:41,520 --> 01:31:45,360
Speaker 1: the same thing happened to us. This once hit me

1530
01:31:46,040 --> 01:31:46,599
Speaker 1: quite hard.

1531
01:31:46,680 --> 01:31:47,120
Speaker 8: Honestly.

1532
01:31:48,000 --> 01:31:49,640
Speaker 1: I know this is my job, and it happens that

1533
01:31:49,640 --> 01:31:52,880
Speaker 1: it's happened before and it will happen again. But he

1534
01:31:53,000 --> 01:31:56,519
Speaker 1: was such a happy, polite, kind young man. He never

1535
01:31:56,600 --> 01:32:00,640
Speaker 1: didn't pick up the phone, He never got tired of

1536
01:32:00,680 --> 01:32:07,479
Speaker 1: explaining stuff that we didn't understand, and he always answered

1537
01:32:07,479 --> 01:32:10,320
Speaker 1: our questions. It was nothing that was off the table.

1538
01:32:10,360 --> 01:32:12,880
Speaker 1: There was nothing that he wouldn't talk about with us.

1539
01:32:12,920 --> 01:32:18,639
Speaker 1: He was completely open, And yeah, we will miss him greatly.

1540
01:32:19,760 --> 01:32:28,600
Speaker 1: He died fighting the thing that we all have to fight, right, fascism, dictatorship, totalitarianism, militarization,

1541
01:32:29,960 --> 01:32:35,960
Speaker 1: And yeah, will grieve his loss. Both Robert and I

1542
01:32:36,080 --> 01:32:38,720
Speaker 1: we've just spoken on the phone, and we found out

1543
01:32:38,800 --> 01:32:41,760
Speaker 1: because the contact of mine on the ground sent me

1544
01:32:41,800 --> 01:32:44,320
Speaker 1: a Reddit message with a link to a Facebook post

1545
01:32:44,640 --> 01:32:47,000
Speaker 1: and it's very clearly zorin no doubt about that it

1546
01:32:47,080 --> 01:32:54,840
Speaker 1: names him, and unfortunately it also shows him dead. So

1547
01:32:54,960 --> 01:32:57,400
Speaker 1: we're not in any doubt that it was him who died,

1548
01:32:59,040 --> 01:33:02,160
Speaker 1: and we're not in any doubt we will gravely miss

1549
01:33:02,240 --> 01:33:06,200
Speaker 1: him either. We both hoped to go over and record

1550
01:33:06,240 --> 01:33:09,240
Speaker 1: with him, to speak with him, to meet him. I'd

1551
01:33:09,280 --> 01:33:13,599
Speaker 1: spoken to him several times on video, sometimes just to chat,

1552
01:33:13,640 --> 01:33:16,840
Speaker 1: not even to record anything, just just to chat, just

1553
01:33:16,840 --> 01:33:20,720
Speaker 1: to catch up and look at what each of us

1554
01:33:20,800 --> 01:33:26,160
Speaker 1: was doing that day. So it's a hard loss for

1555
01:33:26,280 --> 01:33:29,439
Speaker 1: me and for Robert till as I said, we'd just spoken.

1556
01:33:31,760 --> 01:33:35,600
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's the news that we hadn't hoped to

1557
01:33:35,720 --> 01:33:37,920
Speaker 1: end on. Obviously, though, this is the reality of war,

1558
01:33:38,000 --> 01:33:40,760
Speaker 1: and as the world is looking at the conflict in

1559
01:33:40,880 --> 01:33:45,040
Speaker 1: Ukraine now, I'd urge you to look at the conflict

1560
01:33:45,080 --> 01:33:51,240
Speaker 1: in Myanmar to another Russian bomb killed, another nice kid

1561
01:33:52,000 --> 01:33:54,679
Speaker 1: who never had any quarrel with anyone, who just wanted

1562
01:33:54,680 --> 01:33:57,720
Speaker 1: to live his life and didn't want to live the

1563
01:33:57,760 --> 01:33:59,479
Speaker 1: rest of his life with a boot on his neck,

1564
01:34:00,400 --> 01:34:03,439
Speaker 1: so he decided to stand up against it. As you

1565
01:34:03,479 --> 01:34:07,120
Speaker 1: can probably hear in my voice, I'm quite upset by

1566
01:34:07,520 --> 01:34:13,200
Speaker 1: his loss and will be probably for a few days.

1567
01:34:14,040 --> 01:34:16,240
Speaker 1: So I'm sorry to have to end this podcast on

1568
01:34:16,280 --> 01:34:21,000
Speaker 1: such a sad note. I'm sorry for his family, who

1569
01:34:21,000 --> 01:34:24,720
Speaker 1: are now caught between the loss of their son and

1570
01:34:24,800 --> 01:34:29,160
Speaker 1: trying to protect their daughters. I'm sorry for his girlfriend,

1571
01:34:30,479 --> 01:34:32,680
Speaker 1: who's dealing with shrapnel in her own leg and now

1572
01:34:32,760 --> 01:34:36,000
Speaker 1: the loss of the person she loved. And I'm sorry

1573
01:34:36,000 --> 01:34:38,439
Speaker 1: for his comrades. And they've said they'll go on fighting,

1574
01:34:38,479 --> 01:34:40,960
Speaker 1: and I hope they do, and I don't think there's

1575
01:34:40,960 --> 01:34:43,679
Speaker 1: any point really pretending to be objective at this stage

1576
01:34:43,720 --> 01:34:47,880
Speaker 1: in the games, and I hope they win, but I

1577
01:34:47,920 --> 01:34:49,280
Speaker 1: mostly just hope that.

1578
01:34:50,840 --> 01:34:53,360
Speaker 5: One day, young.

1579
01:34:53,080 --> 01:34:57,639
Speaker 1: Men and women and everyone else just gets to live

1580
01:34:57,680 --> 01:35:02,160
Speaker 1: their lives without having to kill and die, because ultimately,

1581
01:35:03,520 --> 01:35:05,840
Speaker 1: no one should have to and no parents should have

1582
01:35:05,840 --> 01:35:10,240
Speaker 1: to bury their kids. So yeah, as much as we're

1583
01:35:10,240 --> 01:35:12,639
Speaker 1: all focusing on Ukraine and what's happening there is terrible,

1584
01:35:12,640 --> 01:35:16,360
Speaker 1: Please don't forget Zor's comrades, Please don't forget his legacy

1585
01:35:17,760 --> 01:35:21,839
Speaker 1: and please don't forget him. We won't and we obviously

1586
01:35:21,840 --> 01:35:24,680
Speaker 1: want to dedicate this podcast to him and what he

1587
01:35:24,720 --> 01:35:34,680
Speaker 1: stood for. So yeah, thanks. It Could Happen Here as

1588
01:35:34,680 --> 01:35:36,320
Speaker 1: a production of cool Zone Media.

1589
01:35:36,400 --> 01:35:39,080
Speaker 6: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

1590
01:35:39,120 --> 01:35:41,360
Speaker 6: cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the

1591
01:35:41,400 --> 01:35:44,840
Speaker 6: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

1592
01:35:45,360 --> 01:35:47,479
Speaker 2: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

1593
01:35:47,560 --> 01:35:50,680
Speaker 2: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources.

1594
01:35:50,800 --> 01:35:51,639
Speaker 5: Thanks for listening.