WEBVTT - Razor’s Edge 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:06.720 I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:09.559 last twenty five years writing about true crime. 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.800 And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:16.439 worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:19.799 Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:21.720 compelling true crimes. 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:24.279 And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:26.040 new insights to old mysteries. 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:31.680 Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:34.400 cases through a twenty first century lens. 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.800 Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:45.600 This is buried bones. 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:02.560 Ay, Kate, how are you? 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:05.080 I'm doing well, Paul, how are you? 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:07.160 No, I'm doing good. I got my hot toddy here 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:09.120 and I'm ready for this next case. 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:11.400 What's in a hot is that whiskey? Is that just 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:13.679 hot whiskey that you mic awave? Is that what a 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:16.400 hot toddy is? See how naive I am? Listeners? I 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:16.680 don't know. 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:19.840 Uh well, I kind of fibbed a little bit. It's 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:23.160 a little room temperature, but yeah, it's a little whiskey. 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:26.680 So that's all it is. It's warm whiskey is that 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:27.240 a hot. 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:30.280 Toddy by my definition. Yes, I mean, this is. 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:31.880 Not what I thought we were going to talk about today. 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:34.120 But they used to use whiskey for everything, didn't they. 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:37.160 Did you ever read in history everything that whiskey had 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:39.920 been used for, I mean, for like knocking out little 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:44.480 babies so they'd stop crying, to anesthegia, to everything you 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:45.000 could think of. 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:48.040 Sure, yeah, I knew about the anisc You know, if 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:50.960 they had to amputate the poor victim had to have 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:53.680 a bunch of whiskey inside and then have to bite 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:57.440 down on the leather strap to prevent biting his tongue. God, 0:01:57.480 --> 0:01:59.120 what a horrific time, I know. 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:02.000 Can you imagine? I mean, I just and you know, 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:04.640 in one of the other episodes, we talked about women 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:07.800 who died in childbirth and how a lot of the 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:10.080 times it's because the doctors weren't washing their hands and 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:12.760 they were getting in bacterial infection. I mean, how awful. 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:17.160 Yeah, no, thank god we live in modern medical times. Yeah. 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:19.400 What I was going to tell you when when you 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:23.240 mentioned the hot toddie was it reminded me of American Sherlock. 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:26.640 You know my book. We were talking about Oscar Heinrich, 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:29.560 the forensic scientist at the center of my book. So 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:33.080 he got his start working at a pharmacy. When his 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:35.160 dad died, he had to quit high school and he 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:37.760 started working in a pharmacy. And he said that it 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:39.760 was the best thing that ever happened to him because 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:43.480 it was sort of like a school on handwriting analysis 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.120 because he could never interpret. 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:46.720 The doctor's script. 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:49.840 What the doctors yeah, So he said, there's that, and 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:52.000 then of course there's all kinds of chemistry and kind 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:55.080 of toxicology. He said it was most valuable for human 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:57.799 behavior because there would be drug addicts who would come 0:02:57.800 --> 0:02:59.560 in and he said he would just watch them and 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:02.359 how they were trying to con the pharmacists into giving 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:06.359 them drugs that didn't belong to them. But one thing 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:09.040 that I noted. I had not known this was that 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:15.120 during Prohibition, the pharmacies really started ticking up on medicinal alcohol. So, 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:18.040 you know, if you needed to treat something. Oscar learned 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:22.680 how to make medicinal whiskey at his pharmacy, and I 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:25.200 didn't know this little fact. But it became such a 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:28.000 big business that Walgreens. I'm looking at my book now, 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:32.080 Walllgreens expanded from twenty stores in the United States to 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:38.000 more than five hundred stores, basically based on medicinal whisky 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:40.240 that was the only legal way to get it. 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:43.160 I get it, I understand. 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:46.040 And then we went back to your hot toddy, which 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:48.760 is I can't take cold whiskey, let alone hot whiskey. 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:53.200 No. I know, I've tried to get you to imbibe, 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:56.280 but unfortunately you just seem to want to stick with 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:56.800 your cider. 0:03:57.000 --> 0:03:59.440 I do. I know. I love cider. Right now, I 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:01.480 have tea. But you know, like I said, if I 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:04.760 had any alcohol during our show, I would be in 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:07.880 the fetal position in sleeping on the floor of myself 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:09.680 about thirty minutes. 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:14.480 Yeah. No, I need it just to kind of soothe 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:17.279 the nerves because I still get a little anxious before 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:20.640 you and I start our episodes. No you don't, yeah 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:21.200 a little bit. 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:23.120 Why because you're scared you're going to say the wrong thing, 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:25.360 or that I'm going to outsmart you see, I can't 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:30.279 even get that out without loud. I'll smart you. Well, 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:32.960 let me tell you. You'll need some whiskey for this one. 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:36.440 This is a story that's set during I mean Prohibition 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:39.680 nineteen twenty one. Love it great time period to talk about. 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:42.760 We're in Portland, Oregon. Portland is one of my most 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:44.800 favorite cities. And you said you've been there a couple 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:45.279 of times. 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:47.800 I was there twice. The first time I went to 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:51.880 Portland was actually before a Golden State Killer, you know, 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:56.680 doing a kind of an early form of the genealogy process, 0:04:56.760 --> 0:04:59.160 and found somebody that was up there in the Portland 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:01.960 area that I thought possibly was related to who I 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:05.120 was looking for, And turns out he was about nine 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:08.159 hundred years ago, so that didn't help. Wait what, No, 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:11.520 We collected DNA from this old man in a convalescent home, 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:15.200 thinking that possibly, you know, a Golden State Killer was 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:18.919 maybe a son or a cousin, and he just was 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:23.479 so distantly related that it was far beyond, you know, 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:26.279 the genealogy paper trail that we need to be able 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:28.520 to use. And then the second time I went to 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:31.320 Portland was during my book tour. But that's when I 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:34.640 had the hosts of Small Town Dixon interviewed me on stage. 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:35.719 Oh that's nice. 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:38.720 Yeah, So that was Yardley, Dan and Dave. And this 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:42.279 was the first time that Dan and Dave revealed their 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:46.120 identities to the world because they had been active law enforcement. 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:49.960 They had always kept their identities hidden, and so they 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:51.599 what do you want to say, stepped out of the 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:53.560 closet at that Portland event. 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:56.160 That's good. So you have good memories of Portland. 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:57.760 Absolutely well, this is not a. 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:01.320 Good memory story, I'll tell you that. But I do 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:04.480 like going to places and time periods that I'm fond of, 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:07.200 and I love Portland and I love nineteen twenty one, 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:11.719 nineteen twenty one for me from American Sherlock is Fatty 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:15.279 Arbuckle case, which was really interesting, you know, very classic 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:18.160 old case. And so I remember a lot of sort 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:22.000 of Hollywood scandals that's not this. This is a little 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:24.680 bit of a mystery. And you know, we're we're really 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:27.080 going to dig into a lot of questions that I 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:29.599 feel like I haven't had answered by you yet. So 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:33.080 let's go ahead and get into it. Let's set the scene. 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:37.800 This is July eleventh, nineteen twenty one. Instead of introducing 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:41.599 you first of all, I guess to say the main players. 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:44.200 I'm going to start with the action here. There is 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:48.119 a neighbor named Robert Green. It's about midnight. He's getting 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:50.440 ready to go to sleep, which would have been about 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:53.400 three hours after I normally go to sleep. I go 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:56.560 to sleep at like nine pm. So midnight Robert Green 0:06:56.720 --> 0:06:59.120 says it's time to go to bed. He hears screaming 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:02.920 from his neighbors. And the neighbors are a family called 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:06.839 the Age's, and they live across the street on North 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:12.920 Druid Avenue. And the family is interesting, I would say, 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:17.240 relatively young couple. That's Harry, he's twenty nine, Louise is 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:20.320 twenty six, and they have two young children, a three 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:22.280 year old who's a girl and a six year old 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:26.000 who's a boy. Robert here's screaming. He sees Louise, who's 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:28.480 the wife, running over to his house. She's in a 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:31.920 nightgown and she's saying someone is killing Harry, so someone's 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:37.520 killing her husband. Robert then sees Harry, the husband, staggering 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:40.840 to the door holding his neck before he collapses to 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:45.160 the ground. So Robert runs across the street with Louise 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.480 and they go to help Harry, who's now lying on 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:52.240 the floor in the house. His throat has been cut, 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:56.280 and when Robert looks down at Harry, he's awake and 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:59.240 his lips are still moving, but he can't talk, So 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:03.640 that's My first question is does that mean his larynx 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:07.280 was cut? Because I'm going to tell you this. Normally 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:09.760 I kind of hide this information, but a pathologist will 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:13.360 eventually say that whoever did cut his throat, unless it 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:17.520 was Harry, he had missed his jugular vein. So why 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:18.840 would he not be able to talk? 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:21.320 Well, I think you know, when you start talking about 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:26.400 a cut throat, it is entirely possible that the trachia 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:29.880 could be transacted. Trachia is in the center of the neck. 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:35.000 Now you're they're talking about jugular veins. Yes, those often 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:38.840 are are cut, but it's also the deeper carotids, you know, 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:43.079 where when those are cut, obviously, death ensues very very quickly. 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:45.680 You know, right now, I would only speculate as to 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:49.560 well why he couldn't talk without more descriptors of what 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:53.080 the pathologists found. But yes, if your throat is cut 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:56.560 and your trachya is transsected, or the larynx has somehow 0:08:56.640 --> 0:08:59.800 been affected, that could prevent you from talking. And there's 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:02.320 no stab wounds to his chest or anything like that. 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:04.400 It's just all through the neck, right. 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:11.480 Yep, you got it. So Robert is traumatized. The neighbor 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:14.280 he leaves Louise and Harry on the ground and he 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:16.440 runs to the neighbors. Not everybody has a phone in 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:19.160 this neighborhood, so he goes to the neighbors whom he 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.520 knows does have a phone. They call the police. The 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:26.360 little boy who's six wakes up and you know, he 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:29.280 is on the porch when he sees his father die, 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:33.360 which is terrible. So there is now a confusing crime scene. 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:35.840 And this will come up very quickly for question number two. 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:36.160 For me. 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:39.720 A lot of neighbors wind up gathering on the porch. 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.640 There's a commotion. Of course, there's already Louise had been 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:46.000 screaming to begin with. There's Harry, the neighbor who's dead 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:48.800 on the porch, and they are already going through the 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:52.320 house before the cops even get there. So of course 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:54.319 what I write down on my notes is a contaminated 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:57.240 crime scene. But before I ask you about that, I 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:01.000 wondered when it became a thing to really secure a 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:04.040 crime scene in history. So listen to this. This is 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:07.240 an article written by Livia Gershaan and she says that 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:10.160 the first practical guide to investigating a crime scene was 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:14.520 written by Austrian jurist Hans Gross in eighteen ninety three 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:17.840 and translated into English in nineteen oh six. So what 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:21.760 Gross said was there were instructions to an investigative officer 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:24.800 who would lead the effort. They would secure the perimeter, 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:28.559 protect the scene from contamination, including from the officer himself. 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:31.680 And you know, he said, you will have as an officer, 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:36.239 the impulse to immediately touch any object of apparent significance. 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.640 You have to fight that impulse essentially. So they have 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:43.760 been talking about securing crime scenes for you know, decades, 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:45.760 So I was wondering about that. I mean, I have 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.840 written so much about this time period, neighbors just walking 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:52.120 all over the place, and how it must have been 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:54.320 awful to get a conviction if you have a good 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:57.000 devinse attorney saying, how do we even know that these 0:10:57.040 --> 0:10:59.640 are this person's fingerprints or you know anything? 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:04.880 Right? Well, and that's, you know, fundamentally why crime scenes 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:08.240 have to be secured as soon as you possibly can. 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:13.600 Of course, life preserving measures take precedence, and so whether 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:18.839 it be you know, patrol officers arriving first, securing the house, 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:21.560 making sure there isn't a thread inside the house, rendering 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:25.840 first aid, e MTS coming. You know, there's a lot 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:28.880 of chaos if there is going to be any type 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:33.079 of medical attention going on. But once that step, if 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:36.080 that step is needed, once that step is done, then 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:40.920 absolutely freezing the scene and preventing unnecessary entry into the 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:47.079 scene is critical because a lot of evidence is very fragile. 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:51.000 You mentioned fingerprints. You know, you could have let's say, 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:54.280 the killer's fingerprint on a doorknob, and now a patrol 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:57.240 officer trying to secure the house grabs that doorknob to 0:11:57.280 --> 0:12:02.120 open up the door and eliminates the fingerprint and shoe impressions, 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:06.360 you know, tracking blood you know, all over the place 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:09.480 as you walk through the house. That now confuses the 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.160 blood patterns inside the crime scene, and on and on 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:16.719 and on. So you know, in this particular case, obviously 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:22.000 it is a very contaminated crime scene. Maybe so it 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:27.160 just depends on, you know, where the actual violence occurred 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:30.040 in the house, did the people go in to that 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:35.640 location or not. And then Harry's body, his clothing is 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:39.560 also part of the crime scene and has critical forms 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:41.280 of evidence that can be interpreted. 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:45.160 When police are reporting or CSI whoever it is, and 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:48.199 everybody is securing a crime scene and collecting evidence and 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:52.360 all of that. Is there some sort of systematic way 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.760 that all officers across the nation are taught, Like, is 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:59.200 there a standard that says this is how many officers 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:01.080 we need with the yellow, this is what you should 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:03.000 do next, this is what you should do next, or 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:06.559 does everybody just do whatever they want to do and 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:08.640 depending on their jurisdiction, you. 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:13.199 Know, I would say that there's in essence best practices. 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:15.840 Every crime scene is different. Now you can kind of 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:20.800 group crime scenes into kind of clusters as to the circumstances. 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:23.400 You have an outdoor scene versus an indoor scene as 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:26.240 the first obvious thing, and then how you deal with 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:29.160 an outdoor scene versus an indoor scene, you know, you 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:33.320 take certain steps as a result, depending on the circumstances, 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:36.480 there may be additional measures that have to be taken 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:38.560 to protect the scene, and sometimes you don't have to 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:42.079 take as many measures, you know, and that's really upon 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.880 the expertise of the people that are arriving on scene, 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:49.760 you know, whether it be the patrol officers or the 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:54.680 CSIS or the forensic scientists. You know. I know, like 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:58.439 by the time I got out to my crime scenes, 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:01.880 I was a you know, reputy share of krimlist. That 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:06.000 crime scene became mine. And I've seen in other jurisdictions 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:09.199 that the investigators control the crime scene and oftentimes they 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:12.360 don't have the wherewithal about the physical evidence because they've 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:16.440 never done the work themselves, and then they often inject 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:20.840 certain biases into how that crime scene is processed, you know. 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:24.040 And so I really like the model of having that 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:29.200 independent CSI that once they're there, they are controlling how 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:32.840 the processing of that scene, the documentation of scene, who 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:36.080 goes in and out of that scene, because they're sort 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:41.960 of like this independent physical evidence investigator that should be 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:46.600 paired with, you know, the actual investigators as sort of 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:47.600 a check and balance. 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:50.360 Well, there doesn't seem to be anybody in control of 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:55.000 this particular crime scene of Harry's death, So that's unfortunate 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:58.240 for us. As we know, the forensics available in nineteen 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:02.000 twenty one were pretty limited. Yes, there are microscopes. Yes, 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:04.080 they can look at hair and kind of determine what's 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:07.800 animal hair, what's human hair. No blood typing yet, and 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:13.360 fingerprint analysis is a thing ish, I mean, not great yet, 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:16.960 So it's pretty sketchy. We're in the middle of the 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:21.960 third degree era of policing, so finding out who did 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:24.560 this would be tough. I have a photo of the 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.680 exterior of the house and a map of the interior. 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:29.000 I don't think I'm going to show it to you 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:31.840 just yet. Just know that I have it. So Harry 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:34.840 is now dead. It is confirmed he has been cut 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:37.640 across his throat, and the pathologist will have a little 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:40.480 bit more information. But let me set the scene inside 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:43.040 the house so that we can start to figure out 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:45.360 what the police are trying to figure out. What is 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:48.600 the motivation to kill this man when his wife is 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:50.760 also right there and there are these two little kids. 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:53.480 So he is dead by the time the police get there, 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:58.720 and the scene seems very confusing. It seems apparent to 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:01.880 the police from all of the blood in the bed, 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:05.720 in Harry's bed, that Harry was first attacked when he 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.800 was lying in bed, he was lying next to his wife. 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:12.400 It's midnight, they're sleep. It looks to investigators like whoever 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:15.600 attacked him had stood behind the head of the bed 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:20.200 and mend over him. Now, I'm not sure how that 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:22.760 came they came to that conclusion. Can you think about 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:26.000 would that be the spray or would what do you 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:28.600 think that would be for them to determine that? 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:33.200 Well that I guess I'm puzzled because typically nowadays, the 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:36.040 head of the bed is pushed up against the wall, 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:40.880 and so this bed is potentially out in the middle 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:45.120 of the floor or somehow positioned where they the offender 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:48.760 could have accessed Harry from behind the headboard. Is that 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:49.800 how you're interpreting that? 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:52.560 Well, maybe that's my cue to go ahead and show you. 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:56.320 Let me share. I don't see. This is how I 0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:59.760 find stuff out. Let me share What I would say 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:02.680 is a very crude drawing, but I know you find 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:06.320 these helpful. So this here in the lower left hand 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:09.280 corner is the map of the room. So if you 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:12.520 see the little dashes from bed, I think that means 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:15.000 his pillow is in the center of the room and 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:19.800 their feet are toward the wall, unless you interpret that differently, 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:21.720 and then I think the dashes are there showing you 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:23.879 Harry's root to get on the front porch where he 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:24.760 ultimately died. 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:29.000 I guess I haven't seen a bed positioned like that. 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:31.639 But you know, this is a what I would call 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:36.119 it bird's eye view, sort of a crime scene sketch. 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:39.240 Showing the inner layout of the house, you know, with 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:44.240 the various bedrooms, their relationship to the living room, dining room, 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:46.439 as well as the door that Harry went out to 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:50.439 get out onto the porch, the bed that I'm I'm 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:54.560 assuming Harry originated from where there's all this blood. It 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:58.840 does look like they've somewhat drawn in the pillows to 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:01.480 the part of the bed that is actually sticking out 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.480 into the floor. And so I think I agree with 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:07.720 you is that, yes, the foot of the bed is 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:11.240 actually what's pushed up against the wall. In terms of 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:15.639 their positioning of Harry, this is where it's critical to 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:20.240 understand what the pathologists found. It sounds like Harry's throat 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:23.879 is cut while he's laying there, possibly while he's asleep. 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:27.120 You know, I'd be looking for the possibility of defensive 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:30.879 injuries on his hands, indicating that he was, you know, 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:33.679 conscious and aware that he was being attacked. But if 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:37.360 he doesn't have those defensive injuries, then I think it's 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:42.520 possible that he was asleep when his throat is cut. Now, 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:46.800 in terms of you called a spray when your throat 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:50.520 is cut, and if it's cut deeply enough to where 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:53.840 it breaches the carotid arteries. While your your heart is 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:57.640 still pumping, you can get what is called an arterial spurt, 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.360 and that's a pretty significant blood pattern if it's present 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:04.400 and you have an artery that's been breached. If the 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:08.959 carotids were not cut as a result of this neck wound, 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:13.040 then in essence, what you're going to have is more 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:16.840 passive bleeding. And it sounds like the or I think, 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:19.520 if I remember correctly, you said the pathologist said his 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:24.240 jugular veins weren't cut. Correct. This is interesting because typically 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:26.879 with with you know, when you have a throat that 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:31.560 is cut, the knife wound is going directly across the 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:35.000 front of the neck, and you know, the jugulars are 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:39.520 fairly superficial, and so if the jugulars are not cut, 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:44.680 then it sounds like this incision is pretty focused in 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:47.679 the front of his neck, which might indicate that his 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:52.800 trachey or larynx was damaged as a result of this. However, 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:57.480 if there's bleeding after that neck wound, now like when 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:00.600 he stands up, he's breathing, or even with these laying down, 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:03.840 he could potentially be breathing in this blood. This blood 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:09.520 is getting into his trachea, potentially his oral cavity, and 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:13.239 if he is gasping, you know, trying to breathe, you 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:16.840 get potentially these expiratory patterns of blood that come out 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:20.520 of the mouth, and so that can look like blood 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:25.239 spatter and that can often be misinterpreted as to what 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:30.000 caused that type of pattern. So blood patterns, when you 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:35.160 do blood pattern analysis, you always want to know what 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.719 the autopsy results are first so you can correlate the 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:41.119 injuries with the patterns at the scene. 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:44.840 Well, one thing to note about this is this is 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:47.280 a small house. So look, it looks like it's only 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:50.760 two bedrooms. You walk through the front porch where Harry died, 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:53.560 and there's a living room in a dining room, and 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:56.160 then it looks like the master is on the left 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:59.040 where he sleeps with Louise, and there's the kitchen, and 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:02.000 then there appears to me to only be one other bedroom, 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:03.760 which is I'm assuming we're the boy and the girl 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:07.480 are sleeping with just the kitchen separating them, and then 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:10.240 we've got a back porch and then a back one 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:14.600 bathroom it looks like for the house. So just noting 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:17.280 that we're going to end up coming back to this sketch, 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:19.000 and I do want to show you here's the photo 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:22.399 of the house. It's just a very small, modest house, 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:25.040 but I thought you might be interested in access. Like 0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:28.440 we're not talking about the deep back top floor where 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:30.640 they are. I mean, this is pretty exposed and it's 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:31.679 right on a big street. 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:35.439 Well, at least per this sketch, it looks like there's 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:39.720 just one door into this small house, single story house. 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:44.919 There are multiple windows. I can't see all the windows 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:47.080 around the house, but in the sketch I can see 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:49.879 the location of the windows. I mean, those could potentially 0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:53.680 be points of entry for an offender if an offender 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:56.280 actually got inside this house, you know, And I think 0:21:56.280 --> 0:21:59.520 we'll have further discussions on that. And then it looks 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:02.280 like he came out that front door and collapsed right 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:02.959 on that porch. 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:08.359 So setting the rest of the scene here, so we 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:11.240 know that the police think that the origin where this 0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:14.920 happened was Harry was in bed. All the blood is there. 0:22:15.119 --> 0:22:18.119 He holds his neck, he kind of crawls, slash staggers 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:21.400