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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 2: Ay, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well, Paul, how are you?

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Speaker 2: No, I'm doing good. I got my hot toddy here

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Speaker 2: and I'm ready for this next case.

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Speaker 1: What's in a hot is that whiskey? Is that just

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Speaker 1: hot whiskey that you mic awave? Is that what a

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Speaker 1: hot toddy is? See how naive I am? Listeners? I

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Speaker 1: don't know.

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Speaker 2: Uh well, I kind of fibbed a little bit. It's

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Speaker 2: a little room temperature, but yeah, it's a little whiskey.

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Speaker 1: So that's all it is. It's warm whiskey is that

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Speaker 1: a hot.

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Speaker 2: Toddy by my definition. Yes, I mean, this is.

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Speaker 1: Not what I thought we were going to talk about today.

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Speaker 1: But they used to use whiskey for everything, didn't they.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever read in history everything that whiskey had

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Speaker 1: been used for, I mean, for like knocking out little

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Speaker 1: babies so they'd stop crying, to anesthegia, to everything you

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Speaker 1: could think of.

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Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, I knew about the anisc You know, if

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Speaker 2: they had to amputate the poor victim had to have

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Speaker 2: a bunch of whiskey inside and then have to bite

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Speaker 2: down on the leather strap to prevent biting his tongue. God,

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Speaker 2: what a horrific time, I know.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine? I mean, I just and you know,

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Speaker 1: in one of the other episodes, we talked about women

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Speaker 1: who died in childbirth and how a lot of the

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Speaker 1: times it's because the doctors weren't washing their hands and

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Speaker 1: they were getting in bacterial infection. I mean, how awful.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, thank god we live in modern medical times. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: What I was going to tell you when when you

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Speaker 1: mentioned the hot toddie was it reminded me of American Sherlock.

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Speaker 1: You know my book. We were talking about Oscar Heinrich,

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Speaker 1: the forensic scientist at the center of my book. So

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Speaker 1: he got his start working at a pharmacy. When his

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Speaker 1: dad died, he had to quit high school and he

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Speaker 1: started working in a pharmacy. And he said that it

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Speaker 1: was the best thing that ever happened to him because

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Speaker 1: it was sort of like a school on handwriting analysis

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Speaker 1: because he could never interpret.

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Speaker 2: The doctor's script.

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Speaker 1: What the doctors yeah, So he said, there's that, and

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Speaker 1: then of course there's all kinds of chemistry and kind

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Speaker 1: of toxicology. He said it was most valuable for human

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Speaker 1: behavior because there would be drug addicts who would come

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Speaker 1: in and he said he would just watch them and

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Speaker 1: how they were trying to con the pharmacists into giving

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Speaker 1: them drugs that didn't belong to them. But one thing

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Speaker 1: that I noted. I had not known this was that

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Speaker 1: during Prohibition, the pharmacies really started ticking up on medicinal alcohol. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you needed to treat something. Oscar learned

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Speaker 1: how to make medicinal whiskey at his pharmacy, and I

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Speaker 1: didn't know this little fact. But it became such a

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Speaker 1: big business that Walgreens. I'm looking at my book now,

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Speaker 1: Walllgreens expanded from twenty stores in the United States to

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Speaker 1: more than five hundred stores, basically based on medicinal whisky

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Speaker 1: that was the only legal way to get it.

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Speaker 2: I get it, I understand.

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Speaker 1: And then we went back to your hot toddy, which

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Speaker 1: is I can't take cold whiskey, let alone hot whiskey.

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Speaker 2: No. I know, I've tried to get you to imbibe,

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Speaker 2: but unfortunately you just seem to want to stick with

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Speaker 2: your cider.

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Speaker 1: I do. I know. I love cider. Right now, I

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Speaker 1: have tea. But you know, like I said, if I

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Speaker 1: had any alcohol during our show, I would be in

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Speaker 1: the fetal position in sleeping on the floor of myself

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Speaker 1: about thirty minutes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I need it just to kind of soothe

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Speaker 2: the nerves because I still get a little anxious before

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Speaker 2: you and I start our episodes. No you don't, yeah

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Speaker 2: a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Why because you're scared you're going to say the wrong thing,

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Speaker 1: or that I'm going to outsmart you see, I can't

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Speaker 1: even get that out without loud. I'll smart you. Well,

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Speaker 1: let me tell you. You'll need some whiskey for this one.

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Speaker 1: This is a story that's set during I mean Prohibition

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenty one. Love it great time period to talk about.

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Speaker 1: We're in Portland, Oregon. Portland is one of my most

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Speaker 1: favorite cities. And you said you've been there a couple

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Speaker 1: of times.

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Speaker 2: I was there twice. The first time I went to

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Speaker 2: Portland was actually before a Golden State Killer, you know,

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Speaker 2: doing a kind of an early form of the genealogy process,

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Speaker 2: and found somebody that was up there in the Portland

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Speaker 2: area that I thought possibly was related to who I

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Speaker 2: was looking for, And turns out he was about nine

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Speaker 2: hundred years ago, so that didn't help. Wait what, No,

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Speaker 2: We collected DNA from this old man in a convalescent home,

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Speaker 2: thinking that possibly, you know, a Golden State Killer was

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Speaker 2: maybe a son or a cousin, and he just was

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Speaker 2: so distantly related that it was far beyond, you know,

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Speaker 2: the genealogy paper trail that we need to be able

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Speaker 2: to use. And then the second time I went to

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Speaker 2: Portland was during my book tour. But that's when I

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Speaker 2: had the hosts of Small Town Dixon interviewed me on stage.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's nice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So that was Yardley, Dan and Dave. And this

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Speaker 2: was the first time that Dan and Dave revealed their

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Speaker 2: identities to the world because they had been active law enforcement.

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Speaker 2: They had always kept their identities hidden, and so they

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Speaker 2: what do you want to say, stepped out of the

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Speaker 2: closet at that Portland event.

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Speaker 1: That's good. So you have good memories of Portland.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely well, this is not a.

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Speaker 1: Good memory story, I'll tell you that. But I do

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Speaker 1: like going to places and time periods that I'm fond of,

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Speaker 1: and I love Portland and I love nineteen twenty one,

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenty one for me from American Sherlock is Fatty

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Speaker 1: Arbuckle case, which was really interesting, you know, very classic

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Speaker 1: old case. And so I remember a lot of sort

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Speaker 1: of Hollywood scandals that's not this. This is a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a mystery. And you know, we're we're really

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Speaker 1: going to dig into a lot of questions that I

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Speaker 1: feel like I haven't had answered by you yet. So

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Speaker 1: let's go ahead and get into it. Let's set the scene.

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Speaker 1: This is July eleventh, nineteen twenty one. Instead of introducing

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Speaker 1: you first of all, I guess to say the main players.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to start with the action here. There is

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Speaker 1: a neighbor named Robert Green. It's about midnight. He's getting

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Speaker 1: ready to go to sleep, which would have been about

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Speaker 1: three hours after I normally go to sleep. I go

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Speaker 1: to sleep at like nine pm. So midnight Robert Green

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Speaker 1: says it's time to go to bed. He hears screaming

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Speaker 1: from his neighbors. And the neighbors are a family called

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Speaker 1: the Age's, and they live across the street on North

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Speaker 1: Druid Avenue. And the family is interesting, I would say,

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Speaker 1: relatively young couple. That's Harry, he's twenty nine, Louise is

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Speaker 1: twenty six, and they have two young children, a three

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Speaker 1: year old who's a girl and a six year old

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Speaker 1: who's a boy. Robert here's screaming. He sees Louise, who's

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Speaker 1: the wife, running over to his house. She's in a

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Speaker 1: nightgown and she's saying someone is killing Harry, so someone's

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Speaker 1: killing her husband. Robert then sees Harry, the husband, staggering

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Speaker 1: to the door holding his neck before he collapses to

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Speaker 1: the ground. So Robert runs across the street with Louise

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Speaker 1: and they go to help Harry, who's now lying on

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Speaker 1: the floor in the house. His throat has been cut,

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Speaker 1: and when Robert looks down at Harry, he's awake and

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Speaker 1: his lips are still moving, but he can't talk, So

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Speaker 1: that's My first question is does that mean his larynx

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Speaker 1: was cut? Because I'm going to tell you this. Normally

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Speaker 1: I kind of hide this information, but a pathologist will

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Speaker 1: eventually say that whoever did cut his throat, unless it

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Speaker 1: was Harry, he had missed his jugular vein. So why

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Speaker 1: would he not be able to talk?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think you know, when you start talking about

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Speaker 2: a cut throat, it is entirely possible that the trachia

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Speaker 2: could be transacted. Trachia is in the center of the neck.

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Speaker 2: Now you're they're talking about jugular veins. Yes, those often

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Speaker 2: are are cut, but it's also the deeper carotids, you know,

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Speaker 2: where when those are cut, obviously, death ensues very very quickly.

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Speaker 2: You know, right now, I would only speculate as to

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Speaker 2: well why he couldn't talk without more descriptors of what

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Speaker 2: the pathologists found. But yes, if your throat is cut

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Speaker 2: and your trachya is transsected, or the larynx has somehow

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Speaker 2: been affected, that could prevent you from talking. And there's

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Speaker 2: no stab wounds to his chest or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: It's just all through the neck, right.

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Speaker 1: Yep, you got it. So Robert is traumatized. The neighbor

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Speaker 1: he leaves Louise and Harry on the ground and he

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Speaker 1: runs to the neighbors. Not everybody has a phone in

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Speaker 1: this neighborhood, so he goes to the neighbors whom he

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Speaker 1: knows does have a phone. They call the police. The

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Speaker 1: little boy who's six wakes up and you know, he

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Speaker 1: is on the porch when he sees his father die,

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Speaker 1: which is terrible. So there is now a confusing crime scene.

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Speaker 1: And this will come up very quickly for question number two.

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Speaker 2: For me.

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Speaker 1: A lot of neighbors wind up gathering on the porch.

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Speaker 1: There's a commotion. Of course, there's already Louise had been

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Speaker 1: screaming to begin with. There's Harry, the neighbor who's dead

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Speaker 1: on the porch, and they are already going through the

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Speaker 1: house before the cops even get there. So of course

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Speaker 1: what I write down on my notes is a contaminated

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Speaker 1: crime scene. But before I ask you about that, I

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Speaker 1: wondered when it became a thing to really secure a

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Speaker 1: crime scene in history. So listen to this. This is

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Speaker 1: an article written by Livia Gershaan and she says that

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Speaker 1: the first practical guide to investigating a crime scene was

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Speaker 1: written by Austrian jurist Hans Gross in eighteen ninety three

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Speaker 1: and translated into English in nineteen oh six. So what

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Speaker 1: Gross said was there were instructions to an investigative officer

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Speaker 1: who would lead the effort. They would secure the perimeter,

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Speaker 1: protect the scene from contamination, including from the officer himself.

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Speaker 1: And you know, he said, you will have as an officer,

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Speaker 1: the impulse to immediately touch any object of apparent significance.

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Speaker 1: You have to fight that impulse essentially. So they have

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Speaker 1: been talking about securing crime scenes for you know, decades,

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Speaker 1: So I was wondering about that. I mean, I have

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Speaker 1: written so much about this time period, neighbors just walking

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Speaker 1: all over the place, and how it must have been

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Speaker 1: awful to get a conviction if you have a good

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Speaker 1: devinse attorney saying, how do we even know that these

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Speaker 1: are this person's fingerprints or you know anything?

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Speaker 2: Right? Well, and that's, you know, fundamentally why crime scenes

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Speaker 2: have to be secured as soon as you possibly can.

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Speaker 2: Of course, life preserving measures take precedence, and so whether

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Speaker 2: it be you know, patrol officers arriving first, securing the house,

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Speaker 2: making sure there isn't a thread inside the house, rendering

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Speaker 2: first aid, e MTS coming. You know, there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of chaos if there is going to be any type

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Speaker 2: of medical attention going on. But once that step, if

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Speaker 2: that step is needed, once that step is done, then

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Speaker 2: absolutely freezing the scene and preventing unnecessary entry into the

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Speaker 2: scene is critical because a lot of evidence is very fragile.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned fingerprints. You know, you could have let's say,

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Speaker 2: the killer's fingerprint on a doorknob, and now a patrol

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Speaker 2: officer trying to secure the house grabs that doorknob to

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Speaker 2: open up the door and eliminates the fingerprint and shoe impressions,

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Speaker 2: you know, tracking blood you know, all over the place

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Speaker 2: as you walk through the house. That now confuses the

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Speaker 2: blood patterns inside the crime scene, and on and on

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Speaker 2: and on. So you know, in this particular case, obviously

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Speaker 2: it is a very contaminated crime scene. Maybe so it

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Speaker 2: just depends on, you know, where the actual violence occurred

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Speaker 2: in the house, did the people go in to that

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Speaker 2: location or not. And then Harry's body, his clothing is

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Speaker 2: also part of the crime scene and has critical forms

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Speaker 2: of evidence that can be interpreted.

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Speaker 1: When police are reporting or CSI whoever it is, and

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Speaker 1: everybody is securing a crime scene and collecting evidence and

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Speaker 1: all of that. Is there some sort of systematic way

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Speaker 1: that all officers across the nation are taught, Like, is

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Speaker 1: there a standard that says this is how many officers

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Speaker 1: we need with the yellow, this is what you should

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Speaker 1: do next, this is what you should do next, or

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Speaker 1: does everybody just do whatever they want to do and

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Speaker 1: depending on their jurisdiction, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, I would say that there's in essence best practices.

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Speaker 2: Every crime scene is different. Now you can kind of

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Speaker 2: group crime scenes into kind of clusters as to the circumstances.

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Speaker 2: You have an outdoor scene versus an indoor scene as

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Speaker 2: the first obvious thing, and then how you deal with

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Speaker 2: an outdoor scene versus an indoor scene, you know, you

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Speaker 2: take certain steps as a result, depending on the circumstances,

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Speaker 2: there may be additional measures that have to be taken

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Speaker 2: to protect the scene, and sometimes you don't have to

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Speaker 2: take as many measures, you know, and that's really upon

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Speaker 2: the expertise of the people that are arriving on scene,

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Speaker 2: you know, whether it be the patrol officers or the

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Speaker 2: CSIS or the forensic scientists. You know. I know, like

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Speaker 2: by the time I got out to my crime scenes,

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Speaker 2: I was a you know, reputy share of krimlist. That

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Speaker 2: crime scene became mine. And I've seen in other jurisdictions

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Speaker 2: that the investigators control the crime scene and oftentimes they

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Speaker 2: don't have the wherewithal about the physical evidence because they've

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Speaker 2: never done the work themselves, and then they often inject

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Speaker 2: certain biases into how that crime scene is processed, you know.

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Speaker 2: And so I really like the model of having that

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Speaker 2: independent CSI that once they're there, they are controlling how

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Speaker 2: the processing of that scene, the documentation of scene, who

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Speaker 2: goes in and out of that scene, because they're sort

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Speaker 2: of like this independent physical evidence investigator that should be

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Speaker 2: paired with, you know, the actual investigators as sort of

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Speaker 2: a check and balance.

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Speaker 1: Well, there doesn't seem to be anybody in control of

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Speaker 1: this particular crime scene of Harry's death, So that's unfortunate

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Speaker 1: for us. As we know, the forensics available in nineteen

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Speaker 1: twenty one were pretty limited. Yes, there are microscopes. Yes,

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Speaker 1: they can look at hair and kind of determine what's

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Speaker 1: animal hair, what's human hair. No blood typing yet, and

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Speaker 1: fingerprint analysis is a thing ish, I mean, not great yet,

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Speaker 1: So it's pretty sketchy. We're in the middle of the

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Speaker 1: third degree era of policing, so finding out who did

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Speaker 1: this would be tough. I have a photo of the

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Speaker 1: exterior of the house and a map of the interior.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I'm going to show it to you

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Speaker 1: just yet. Just know that I have it. So Harry

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Speaker 1: is now dead. It is confirmed he has been cut

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Speaker 1: across his throat, and the pathologist will have a little

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Speaker 1: bit more information. But let me set the scene inside

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Speaker 1: the house so that we can start to figure out

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Speaker 1: what the police are trying to figure out. What is

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Speaker 1: the motivation to kill this man when his wife is

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Speaker 1: also right there and there are these two little kids.

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Speaker 1: So he is dead by the time the police get there,

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Speaker 1: and the scene seems very confusing. It seems apparent to

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Speaker 1: the police from all of the blood in the bed,

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Speaker 1: in Harry's bed, that Harry was first attacked when he

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Speaker 1: was lying in bed, he was lying next to his wife.

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Speaker 1: It's midnight, they're sleep. It looks to investigators like whoever

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Speaker 1: attacked him had stood behind the head of the bed

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Speaker 1: and mend over him. Now, I'm not sure how that

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Speaker 1: came they came to that conclusion. Can you think about

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Speaker 1: would that be the spray or would what do you

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Speaker 1: think that would be for them to determine that?

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Speaker 2: Well that I guess I'm puzzled because typically nowadays, the

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Speaker 2: head of the bed is pushed up against the wall,

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Speaker 2: and so this bed is potentially out in the middle

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Speaker 2: of the floor or somehow positioned where they the offender

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Speaker 2: could have accessed Harry from behind the headboard. Is that

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Speaker 2: how you're interpreting that?

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Speaker 1: Well, maybe that's my cue to go ahead and show you.

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Speaker 1: Let me share. I don't see. This is how I

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Speaker 1: find stuff out. Let me share What I would say

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Speaker 1: is a very crude drawing, but I know you find

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Speaker 1: these helpful. So this here in the lower left hand

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Speaker 1: corner is the map of the room. So if you

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Speaker 1: see the little dashes from bed, I think that means

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Speaker 1: his pillow is in the center of the room and

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Speaker 1: their feet are toward the wall, unless you interpret that differently,

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Speaker 1: and then I think the dashes are there showing you

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Speaker 1: Harry's root to get on the front porch where he

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Speaker 1: ultimately died.

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Speaker 2: I guess I haven't seen a bed positioned like that.

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Speaker 2: But you know, this is a what I would call

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Speaker 2: it bird's eye view, sort of a crime scene sketch.

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Speaker 2: Showing the inner layout of the house, you know, with

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Speaker 2: the various bedrooms, their relationship to the living room, dining room,

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Speaker 2: as well as the door that Harry went out to

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Speaker 2: get out onto the porch, the bed that I'm I'm

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Speaker 2: assuming Harry originated from where there's all this blood. It

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Speaker 2: does look like they've somewhat drawn in the pillows to

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Speaker 2: the part of the bed that is actually sticking out

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Speaker 2: into the floor. And so I think I agree with

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Speaker 2: you is that, yes, the foot of the bed is

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Speaker 2: actually what's pushed up against the wall. In terms of

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Speaker 2: their positioning of Harry, this is where it's critical to

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Speaker 2: understand what the pathologists found. It sounds like Harry's throat

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Speaker 2: is cut while he's laying there, possibly while he's asleep.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'd be looking for the possibility of defensive

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Speaker 2: injuries on his hands, indicating that he was, you know,

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Speaker 2: conscious and aware that he was being attacked. But if

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Speaker 2: he doesn't have those defensive injuries, then I think it's

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Speaker 2: possible that he was asleep when his throat is cut. Now,

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Speaker 2: in terms of you called a spray when your throat

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Speaker 2: is cut, and if it's cut deeply enough to where

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Speaker 2: it breaches the carotid arteries. While your your heart is

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Speaker 2: still pumping, you can get what is called an arterial spurt,

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Speaker 2: and that's a pretty significant blood pattern if it's present

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Speaker 2: and you have an artery that's been breached. If the

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Speaker 2: carotids were not cut as a result of this neck wound,

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Speaker 2: then in essence, what you're going to have is more

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Speaker 2: passive bleeding. And it sounds like the or I think,

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Speaker 2: if I remember correctly, you said the pathologist said his

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Speaker 2: jugular veins weren't cut. Correct. This is interesting because typically

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Speaker 2: with with you know, when you have a throat that

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Speaker 2: is cut, the knife wound is going directly across the

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Speaker 2: front of the neck, and you know, the jugulars are

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Speaker 2: fairly superficial, and so if the jugulars are not cut,

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Speaker 2: then it sounds like this incision is pretty focused in

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Speaker 2: the front of his neck, which might indicate that his

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Speaker 2: trachey or larynx was damaged as a result of this. However,

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Speaker 2: if there's bleeding after that neck wound, now like when

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Speaker 2: he stands up, he's breathing, or even with these laying down,

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Speaker 2: he could potentially be breathing in this blood. This blood

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Speaker 2: is getting into his trachea, potentially his oral cavity, and

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Speaker 2: if he is gasping, you know, trying to breathe, you

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Speaker 2: get potentially these expiratory patterns of blood that come out

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Speaker 2: of the mouth, and so that can look like blood

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Speaker 2: spatter and that can often be misinterpreted as to what

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Speaker 2: caused that type of pattern. So blood patterns, when you

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Speaker 2: do blood pattern analysis, you always want to know what

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Speaker 2: the autopsy results are first so you can correlate the

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Speaker 2: injuries with the patterns at the scene.

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Speaker 1: Well, one thing to note about this is this is

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Speaker 1: a small house. So look, it looks like it's only

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Speaker 1: two bedrooms. You walk through the front porch where Harry died,

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Speaker 1: and there's a living room in a dining room, and

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Speaker 1: then it looks like the master is on the left

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Speaker 1: where he sleeps with Louise, and there's the kitchen, and

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Speaker 1: then there appears to me to only be one other bedroom,

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Speaker 1: which is I'm assuming we're the boy and the girl

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Speaker 1: are sleeping with just the kitchen separating them, and then

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Speaker 1: we've got a back porch and then a back one

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Speaker 1: bathroom it looks like for the house. So just noting

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Speaker 1: that we're going to end up coming back to this sketch,

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Speaker 1: and I do want to show you here's the photo

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Speaker 1: of the house. It's just a very small, modest house,

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Speaker 1: but I thought you might be interested in access. Like

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Speaker 1: we're not talking about the deep back top floor where

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Speaker 1: they are. I mean, this is pretty exposed and it's

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Speaker 1: right on a big street.

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Speaker 2: Well, at least per this sketch, it looks like there's

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Speaker 2: just one door into this small house, single story house.

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Speaker 2: There are multiple windows. I can't see all the windows

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Speaker 2: around the house, but in the sketch I can see

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Speaker 2: the location of the windows. I mean, those could potentially

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Speaker 2: be points of entry for an offender if an offender

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Speaker 2: actually got inside this house, you know, And I think

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Speaker 2: we'll have further discussions on that. And then it looks

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Speaker 2: like he came out that front door and collapsed right

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Speaker 2: on that porch.

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Speaker 1: So setting the rest of the scene here, so we

398
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Speaker 1: know that the police think that the origin where this

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Speaker 1: happened was Harry was in bed. All the blood is there.

400
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Speaker 1: He holds his neck, he kind of crawls, slash staggers

401
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Speaker 1: out onto the front porch and he dies. So they

402
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Speaker 1: go and they look and they say this place is

403
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Speaker 1: a mess. In the bedroom Harry's pant pockets are turned

404
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 1: inside out and they were just you know, wherever he

405
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Speaker 1: left them last the drawers and the bureau opened Louise's

406
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 1: purses on the floor. It's open. Now, why we have

407
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Speaker 1: to go back. So this is obviously looking like a burglary.

408
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Speaker 1: Why we have to go back? Something weird. There is

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Speaker 1: a pile of jewelry and some silverware found on the

410
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Speaker 1: ground outside the house, underneath a dining room window, So

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Speaker 1: we'll go back to the photo that I showed you.

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Speaker 1: But the dining room window is locked from the inside,

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Speaker 1: so no one went out through it, or at least

414
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Speaker 1: it's locked by the time the police get there. And

415
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Speaker 1: the jewelry, the police say, looks like it was placed.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't look like it was flung. It was almost

417
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,440
Speaker 1: like it was stacked outside and it was dropped from

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Speaker 1: a few feet up. So they thought that this was curious.

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Speaker 1: And the dining room is on the opposite side of

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Speaker 1: the house of the bedroom. So let me show you

421
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Speaker 1: what I'm talking about, because they're starting to try to

422
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Speaker 1: figure out as this staged burglary or something you know,

423
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Speaker 1: bigger happening here. When you see this sketch down here,

424
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Speaker 1: and it says Jay, that's where the jewelry was. So

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Speaker 1: you see the bedrooms kind of in the upper left

426
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Speaker 1: hand corner. Whoever did this had to go through the

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Speaker 1: bedroom into the living room, hang a left at the

428
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Speaker 1: dining room, and then I don't know, this stuff ends

429
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Speaker 1: up out of this window right here, so it's curious.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that window is locked from the inside. So

431
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 2: if this jewelry was dropped out of this window, then

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Speaker 2: that person closed the window and locked it. Early on

433
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Speaker 2: in my career, I processed a fair number of burglary scenes.

434
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 2: That's how I really learned sort of the fundamentals of

435
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 2: crime scene investigation. Burglars don't do this. So you know,

436
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 2: when a burglar enters into a house and is gathering

437
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 2: up items of value, there's usually a container that they use,

438
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 2: whether it's something that they've brought themselves or something from

439
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 2: inside the house. A common container that burglars use are

440
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 2: pellow cases, you know, So any jurisdiction has these pellow

441
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,880
Speaker 2: case burglars. You know, so they don't have any burglary

442
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,400
Speaker 2: tools on their person as they're walking through the neighborhood,

443
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 2: but they can get inside the house and now they

444
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 2: can start gathering up items and sometimes a significant number

445
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 2: of items that they can place into a pellow case

446
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,679
Speaker 2: or the homeowner's backpack or you know, whatever container that

447
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 2: they can find. You know. So for a burglar to

448
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 2: take these items of jewelry and toss them out the

449
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 2: window and then lock the window, that isn't right, you know.

450
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 2: So that's a red flag to my mind. But I'm

451
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 2: kind of curious to see what else, what other details

452
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 2: you provide.

453
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,640
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to the scene. So the police

454
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 1: are automatically just like you. This is a big red

455
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 1: flag for them, especially just the locked window, the way

456
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,959
Speaker 1: that this is piled up neatly. They said that maybe

457
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,360
Speaker 1: the killer robbed the house of jewelry and silverware, put

458
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,880
Speaker 1: it out the window and it landed weirdly. I don't

459
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,880
Speaker 1: know about that, then locked the window and then went

460
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 1: back to the bedroom to look for cash. And then

461
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 1: Harry woke up and saw the person but didn't make

462
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 1: it out of bed. Because I guess this is a

463
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: burglar who came armed with a knife or a razor

464
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: or something. The police are saying this is a thing.

465
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: They don't really think that's what happened. They feel like

466
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 1: this is you know something that pretty clearly was focused

467
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,439
Speaker 1: on Harry and murder and not on jewelry and money.

468
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: So when they make a discovery in the street twenty

469
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 1: five feet away from the front door, police find a

470
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 1: straight razor with a black handle and it has blood

471
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: on it. This is not belong to Harry, so they

472
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: think maybe this is the murder weapon. But this is

473
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 1: not Harry's straight razor. First of all, when they say

474
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 1: straight razor, I'm assuming it's the kind of razor, the

475
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: old school razor that men used to shave with.

476
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 2: Is that right?

477
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 1: Is that what you would think?

478
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 2: That's how I'm interpreting it. And that's what barbers use today.

479
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 2: So you go get a shave at of barber they

480
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 2: use a straight razor.

481
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 1: That would terrify Have you done that? That would scare

482
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 1: me to death? That would somebody come at me with

483
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,439
Speaker 1: one of those with a handle on a razor? I

484
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: guess you're used to it.

485
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 2: I actually have, Yeah, and it is you know, you

486
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 2: sit there and you think this person with a single

487
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 2: stroke could end my life.

488
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, little sweeny tadd action happening. Well, that's what they have.

489
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 1: They have this straight razor. They assume this is what

490
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 1: the murder weapon is. It's got some blood on it.

491
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: So you know, this has all become a mystery. Louise

492
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: is hysterical, and the neighbors, everybody's trying to console her,

493
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: and the police are investigating, and they don't think it's

494
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: a burglary. So now we have to learn a little

495
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 1: bit about the couple. This is not straightforward the way

496
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: we think it could go. There's some complications here. And

497
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 1: I will say I usually say this at the top

498
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 1: of the episode, but I want to say it now.

499
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 1: This is something he said, she said, This is what

500
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 1: this story is about, he said, she said. And I

501
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: don't even have that many of those. So it's interesting

502
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: to see how people perceive the main players in a

503
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 1: murder case, especially in the nineteen twenty one, which is still,

504
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: you know, a conservative We're not in the roaring twenties,

505
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: yet it's still a very conservative country. Many people think

506
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: women should be wearing corsets still, so you know, this

507
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 1: case kind of brings up some different things as far

508
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: as our culture. Let me tell you about these folks.

509
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: So they moved from the Ozarks region of Missouri Beautiful

510
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: to Portland. They had known each other their whole lives.

511
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 1: They grew up on farms next to each other, which

512
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 1: is sweet. They got married when Louise was seventeen and

513
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,239
Speaker 1: Harry was twenty. And then, you know, Harry wanted to

514
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 1: work in a World War One shipyard, so they moved

515
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 1: to Portland. And since moving to Portland, they had very

516
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: robust social lives. They were members of a church, They

517
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: had a lot of social clubs that they were active in.

518
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: Louise played trombone in a local band and took private lessons.

519
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: We have not had a trombone player involved in any

520
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: of our cases yet. I thought that was interesting.

521
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 2: I guess that's surprising for a female trombone player from

522
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 2: this era. You know, I'm not sure I've seen that,

523
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 2: you know, watching old historic you know, like the jazz

524
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 2: musicians from that timeframe. So interesting.

525
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: Okay, let me tell you what Louise said to investigators.

526
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: Now that we know about Harry and Louise. She said

527
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: her kids are asleep. That the night that Harry died,

528
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: they had both gone to bed about ten o'clock and

529
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: she had fallen asleep pretty quickly. She assumed Harry had.

530
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: She was woken up two hours later by his moaning,

531
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: So she climbs over him, runs to the front door,

532
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: which this is not a big place, as we talked

533
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: about before, it was you know, a few steps. Basically,

534
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: she saw someone running through that front door at the

535
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: same time, wearing a long overcoat. You know. One note

536
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,239
Speaker 1: I would say, as my first instinct I guess was

537
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 1: why did she not stay there and tend to him.

538
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: She was not covered in blood, so that's not what

539
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: she did. She wanted to run out and get help.

540
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: Is there a wrong reaction to have in that situation?

541
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: You're either you know, trying to help your husband but

542
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: there's nobody who knows help needs to be called because

543
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: they don't have a phone, or you're trying to you know,

544
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 1: get help and you're leaving your husband there bleeding out.

545
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 2: Well, I think it really comes down to what is

546
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 2: her perception at the time. Right now, I'm just hearing

547
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 2: that she's hearing her husband moaning, you know, is this

548
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: akin to he's having a bad dream, you know, or

549
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,479
Speaker 2: does she see something that causes her to you know,

550
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 2: climb over him and run out. We can never say

551
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 2: that there's the perfect way somebody should respond, you know,

552
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 2: when there is a crime that has occurred. You know,

553
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 2: we've seen that over and over again. Some people, you know,

554
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 2: their loved ones have been killed, and they respond a

555
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 2: certain way, and other people respond a different way. And

556
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,959
Speaker 2: of course, you know, you pay attention to the response,

557
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 2: but it's not a reliable predictor as to whether or

558
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 2: not somebody was involved in the crime because they didn't

559
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 2: respond the way that you think they should have. So

560
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,959
Speaker 2: in Luis situation, it's you know, I guess I'm just

561
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 2: kind of confused. Harry's moaning and now she's running out

562
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 2: of the house. She must have, you know, taken in

563
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 2: more information or sent something more than just hearing him moaning.

564
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: Yep, she must have. I mean, I think the big

565
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: deal to me is she didn't have any blood on her.

566
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: I don't know why I didn't think that she wouldn't

567
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: at least touch him if there was that much blood.

568
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: And she's lying next to him, but they report that

569
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: she doesn't have any blood on her, and she says,

570
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: I didn't clean up anything. I just knew something was

571
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: wrong with him and ran and then she saw this

572
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: person leaving in a long overcoat.

573
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 2: Right now, I do want to address that though, when

574
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 2: people see a very bloody crime scene, and it sounds

575
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 2: like the bed has a fair amount of blood in it.

576
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: A lot of that blood possibly was deposited after Louise

577
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 2: left the bed. So that's you know, because you have

578
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 2: to think about the dynamics. If Harry's laying there, his

579
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 2: throat is cut, yes, he's going out, there's going to

580
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 2: be some external bleeding, gets up and she gets out.

581
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 2: There's not a lot of blood that has saturated the

582
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 2: sheets or the mattress or the pillow whatever this, you know,

583
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 2: the circumstances are. And then as Harry lays there for

584
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 2: a period of time, now you get more blood being deposited.

585
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 2: But then also fabric causes blood to spread even further

586
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 2: even if there's not more blood being deposited. So when

587
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 2: you now go into and take a look at this bed,

588
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 2: it looks like half the bed is covered in blood.

589
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 2: It was like, well, it's actually wasn't like that when

590
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 2: Louise was in the bed.

591
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: That makes sense. If things happen the way that Louise

592
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: said they happen, I would say the police are very

593
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 1: suspicious of Louise because there's nobody who else is there around.

594
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, if they're thinking this is not

595
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: a burglary. Somebody's targeting Harry. They're looking at her first.

596
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that's the right thing. I'm saying that's

597
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: where we are right now.

598
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 2: Sure, now, I think, you know, going back to you

599
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 2: know what was observed in the room where his hands have,

600
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 2: pockets turned out, drawers have been pulled out, You've got

601
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 2: money and jewelry that has been deposited outside. This all

602
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 2: must have occurred before Louise got up and got out

603
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 2: of that bed. So now that's part of the assessment

604
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 2: of Louise and how and why is somebody doing this

605
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 2: while she's asleep next to Harry? And then why does

606
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 2: that offender only attack Harry when Louise was laying right

607
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 2: next to him asleep. So there are there again, there's

608
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 2: some red flags here. So I want to know more.

609
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: But you know, we go back to the theory that

610
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: you say all the time, which is you eliminate the threat.

611
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: Louise isn't a threat, right, I mean, Harry is the

612
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: threat with Louise. He can probably intimidate her and he

613
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: can do whatever you take, whatever he wants.

614
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 2: Right, Well, you eliminate the threat, but you're also eliminating

615
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 2: the witnesses. So if you're taking the step to kill Harry, yes,

616
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 2: you kill him first, but then you would also eliminate

617
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 2: Louise and this offender. At least per Louise's statement, it's

618
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,280
Speaker 2: not like she's in the bed and seeing somebody standing

619
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 2: over her in the bed like he was about to,

620
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 2: you know, take further action against her. It almost sounds

621
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 2: like she wakes up, Harry's throat has been cut and

622
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 2: the offender is running out of the house, you know,

623
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 2: So that seems more of Harry is targeted, you know,

624
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 2: And that's that's odd that the offender has taken the

625
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 2: time before killing Harry to go through the drawers and

626
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 2: go through his pockets and put the jewelry outside. Something

627
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 2: is not adding up here.

628
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 1: Well, the police agree. A physician who works for the

629
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: corner will later say that he believes it looked like

630
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 1: Harry's windpipe had been severed, and he's calling bs on

631
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: Louisa's story. He's saying Harry would not be moaning or

632
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 1: not enough to wake her up. Yeah, now what do

633
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 1: you think about that? Remember Robert, the neighbors said Harry's

634
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 1: mouth was moved, but no words were coming out.

635
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, And that that adds up the trachia, the windpipe,

636
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 2: you know, being transsected. Absolutely, if you can't get you know,

637
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 2: air up through your vocal cords, you can't utter a sound,

638
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 2: but you still are able to mouth. You know, you know,

639
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 2: you don't have all these nerves that have been severed.

640
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 2: You know, you still have you know, motor control over

641
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 2: the innervations and the muscles that are in your face.

642
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 2: So you know, it comes down to what exactly is

643
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 2: this moaning sound with this doctor saying his trachya is transsected,

644
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 2: his windpipe is transsected. He's not vocalizing anything, but there

645
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 2: is going to possibly be air passing it in and

646
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 2: out of this wound? Is she hearing that?

647
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: She can't even identify it. She just assumed it was

648
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 1: something woke her up, sounds of pain. So the police say, okay,

649
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: tell us about the suspect that you saw running out

650
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,399
Speaker 1: the front door when you were running to go get

651
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 1: help from your neighbor. So the only description she was

652
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:08,879
Speaker 1: really able to give, because his back was to her

653
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: and he was wearing a long overcoat, was that he

654
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: was short and squat. The issue is the next day

655
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 1: she says he was tall and lanky. So I'm going

656
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 1: to go back to what you've said before, which is,

657
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: you know, inconsistencies can be alarming. At the same time,

658
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,280
Speaker 1: witnesses stink sometimes they can't remember anything. And my description

659
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 1: of short and squatty as a woman might be different

660
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:34,280
Speaker 1: than your description of one.

661
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 2: Well for sure. And she's also seeing this individual in

662
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 2: what sounds like like a trench.

663
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,359
Speaker 1: Coat in the middle of the night.

664
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, in the dark, you know, And so this is

665
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 2: where you know. Of course, if she's being interviewed and

666
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 2: he's short and squatty and then the next day he's

667
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 2: now tall and lanky, then the follow up is, well,

668
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 2: why are you changing your description? And if she's saying,

669
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 2: you know, I started thinking about it, and I remember

670
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 2: I can remember him, you know, running past let's say,

671
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 2: the living room sofa, and now as I think about,

672
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 2: you know, how tall he is relative to the sofa,

673
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 2: he was taller than what I initially thought. Is Is

674
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 2: there a really good reason for her to change so

675
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 2: dramatically in this physical description.

676
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let's see. There is a corner's inquest held

677
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,240
Speaker 1: three days after Harry is killed. Of course, the police

678
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: are still interviewing everyone in his life, including Louise. Still

679
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: the corner is a guy named doctor Earle Smith. I mean,

680
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,720
Speaker 1: the jury agrees that Harry was killed by a sharp object.

681
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 1: There's now an interesting debate on whether or not the

682
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: corner looked at Harry's neck wound and can say it

683
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: was this razor. He's not sure it was the razor.

684
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:53,240
Speaker 1: Multiple doctors who examined the body agree that this looked

685
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: a little bit more like a large knife. And here

686
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: in lies my question to you. This is their description

687
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: and the reason why they think it was a knife

688
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 1: and not this bloody razor, this straight edge with a

689
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 1: handle that was found twenty five feet away. They said

690
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: the cut had been deeper in the middle than on

691
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,919
Speaker 1: the ends, and that hairy skin had been damaged by

692
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: what looked like the hilt of a knife. So, I mean,

693
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: I know it matters in a way. Can they really

694
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: tell that based on a neck wound.

695
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 2: Which one is describing the neck wood? Is this the pathologist.

696
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 1: It's like four of them, and they're all kind of

697
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 1: having the same agreement that it's deeper in the middle

698
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: than on the ends, and it looks like kind of

699
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:32,720
Speaker 1: a jagged cut.

700
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 2: Okay, so yes, you know, they can make assessments. They

701
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 2: can even determine a pathologist can determine is it a

702
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 2: single edge or a double edged knife, you know. But

703
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,720
Speaker 2: of course assessing the wound in terms of the depth

704
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:49,760
Speaker 2: of the wound, with it being deeper in the middle

705
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 2: than on the sides, well, that helps explain why the

706
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 2: juggler veins the carotids aren't cut because those are on

707
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 2: the side of your windpipe of the trachia. So this

708
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 2: knife wound sounds more like it has more of a

709
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 2: stabbing motion to the center of his neck than like

710
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,720
Speaker 2: an ear to ear type of incision that we often

711
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 2: see with throats that have been cut. Now you can

712
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 2: stab the knife in but also do an incisive movement

713
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 2: and then pull it out, and that would explain almost

714
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 2: it would almost look like a V shaped neck wound

715
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 2: from the skin surface of the skin into the neck structures.

716
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 2: And that's now he's got his trachia transected. He can't

717
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 2: talk yet his jugulars are intact, as crowdits must be

718
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 2: intact unless the knife went underneath the jugular on one

719
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 2: side and possibly severed acrot it. I mean, there's got

720
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 2: to be. I imagine some significant bleeding going on. If harryus

721
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 2: is getting up and walking out of the house and

722
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 2: collapsing due to loss of blood or potentially do sort

723
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 2: of almost like an asphyxia because his lungs are filling

724
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 2: up with blood. But either way, he's got a significant

725
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 2: bleeding injury inside his neck. But it's not like both

726
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 2: carotids are completely cut, you know, like if we have

727
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 2: a homicidal throat slashing, you know, this can often be

728
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 2: near decapitation and that person dies within a matter of

729
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 2: seconds because the brain absolutely has no blood pumping up

730
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 2: into it. The carotids are completely transsected, and all the

731
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 2: bleeding is going there's no blood pressure up to the brain.

732
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 2: That type of neck wound, it's close to instantaneous death.

733
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 2: We don't see that with Harry. So Harry is getting

734
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 2: enough oxygen up to his brain to be able to

735
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 2: get up and walk out of the house before collapsing.

736
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 2: So the description of these medical experts of the neck

737
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 2: wound it makes sense to me. But there is is

738
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,320
Speaker 2: going to be something happening in terms of significant bleeding

739
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 2: and right now, yeah I'm not hearing Oh yeah, the

740
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:08,879
Speaker 2: jugglers were cut or the crowd as were cut. There

741
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 2: are other blood vessels in the neck that this knife

742
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 2: probably transacted and that's the source of the blood.

743
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 1: So do you agree with them based on their description

744
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 1: that this is more likely to be a large knife

745
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: instead of a straight edge, which is consistent all the

746
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 1: way across based on what they're saying, because it makes

747
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 1: a difference, Paul, I'll tell you that.

748
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 2: Well, you know, in terms of the size of the knife,

749
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 2: you know, I right now I don't have any information

750
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 2: that would be informative as to the size of a knife. However,

751
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 2: you know, envisioning the typical straight edge, where you know,

752
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 2: the front, the top of the blade is blunt, and

753
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 2: then you have the working edge of the blade along

754
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 2: you know, just the single edge, and then you have

755
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 2: that handle, I could envision a way that that blade

756
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 2: could have been used to inflict a similar looking neck wound.

757
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 2: They're observing the hilt of a knife handle in the neck. Well,

758
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 2: necks aren't very big, you know, So if this knife

759
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 2: is going all the way up to the length of

760
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 2: it's played to where now you have this part of

761
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 2: the handle contacting the skin, that doesn't sound like a

762
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 2: very long knife to me. At all, you know, we're

763
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 2: talking a few inches. I'm not sure what they mean

764
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 2: by a large knife. Are we talking about like a

765
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 2: chef's knife. No, because in order to get that hilt

766
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 2: to contact the skin, for them to see that that

767
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,720
Speaker 2: knife has gone completely through the neck and into the bed,

768
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 2: you know, so they would be seeing that complete, you know,

769
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,240
Speaker 2: through and through type of injury.

770
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: Well, let's continue on because there's a lot more ahead here.

771
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 1: So the newspapers, of course, are yellow journalism. They're reporting

772
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: this all over the place. It's a really big story,

773
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 1: and you know, people are fascinated with the idea that

774
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:04,320
Speaker 1: police think this woman might be responsible for murdering her husband,

775
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: and public opinion starts to shift against her. She is arrested,

776
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 1: but as a this is an interesting phrase. Is this

777
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,800
Speaker 1: a real thing? Witness under arrest, but she's not charged?

778
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 1: So what is that nowadays? What would we call.

779
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 2: That a false imprisonment?

780
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 1: I guess person of interest who's been collected by the way,

781
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 1: I don't know.

782
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 2: Here in the United States, you have to have probable

783
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 2: cause in order to deny somebody their freedom, you know,

784
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:38,320
Speaker 2: that's a constitutional right that we have. And so now

785
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 2: to say that she's a witness under arrest that you know,

786
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 2: at least the way that I'm interpreting that where Okay,

787
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,280
Speaker 2: they don't have a they don't have a sufficient probable cause,

788
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 2: but they think she's the one responsible. She's a suspect.

789
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 2: That's how I would describe her. She most certainly is

790
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:03,320
Speaker 2: a suspect. But you still need to cross that probable

791
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 2: cause threshold in order to deny somebody their right to freedom.

792
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 2: And it doesn't sound like they've got that with what

793
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 2: you've told me.

794
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: Yet, I agree, And she is doing the right things.

795
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: She's clamming up. She's not talking to anybody about her attorney,

796
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 1: which just drives the press crazy and the police, but

797
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: especially the press, and you know, they start describing her

798
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 1: as a caged tigriss gross because she had reddish hair,

799
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 1: and they start to sexualize her very much. I would say,

800
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: speaking along those lines, the police are saying and the

801
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 1: prosecutor are saying, Okay, what's our motive here? And I

802
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 1: will tell you they don't have a great motive. So

803
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: the neighbors are saying, they seem like a good couple.

804
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 1: Of course, we never know. She is taking trombone lessons

805
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: from a handsome man his name is J. H. Klecker.

806
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: He is leazy. I will tell you that. And the

807
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 1: police say that they think that these two people were

808
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: having an affair and that she wanted things to get

809
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:04,320
Speaker 1: more serious, and you know, the way to convince Glecker

810
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: that she's serious is to kill her husband. They also

811
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 1: think maybe they were in on it together, and this

812
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,280
Speaker 1: is where we come up with sort of desperate police

813
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:16,760
Speaker 1: trying to find a motive. And at the same time

814
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 1: that he said, she said, so I can tell you

815
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 1: more about Klecker the trombone teacher, or what the police

816
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 1: are thinking, I will tell you they never do a

817
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 1: good job settling on. Did Luis do this to draw

818
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 1: her boyfriend in or did they do it together so

819
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: they could be together. There is zero evidence for either

820
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: one of these theories.

821
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 2: No, but you know, at least during the investigative stage,

822
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 2: this is I would say a decent theory from the information.

823
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 2: This crime scene does have an element of staging that

824
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:59,399
Speaker 2: is a parent you know, Tupac is obviously turned out

825
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 2: of Harry's pants, drawers being pulled out, the money and

826
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 2: jewelry being weirdly positioned outside. You know, considering Harry is

827
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 2: in essence executed. You know, that's where I'm seeing contradiction.

828
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 2: I'm seeing staging. And anytime you see staging, that suggests

829
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 2: that the person responsible, in their mind thinks that they

830
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 2: are likely going to be considered a suspect. And so

831
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 2: that would be Louise, and that would be somebody she

832
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 2: is an intimate relationship with, which is this JH trombone player. Now,

833
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 2: whether or not Louise acted alone in order to make

834
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 2: herself free to be able to continue on a relationship

835
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:47,879
Speaker 2: with JH, or she convinced Jah to come over and

836
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 2: make this look like a burglary, but kill Harry so

837
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 2: those so Louise and JH could have a future together.

838
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 2: Either scenario, I mean those are real. You know, either

839
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 2: one has had and time and time again throughout history.

840
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 2: So you know, I think during the investigator stage that

841
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 2: is a decent theory. But now you have to prove

842
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 2: that you know? And and is JH? You know the

843
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,439
Speaker 2: man in the overcoat and Louise is lying about well

844
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 2: it's a stranger versus why I knew exactly who it was?

845
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 2: And what is Jh's description? Is he short in squat

846
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 2: or is he tall and lanky? You know, is there

847
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 2: a reason where she goes, Oh, maybe I described him

848
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 2: too accurately the first time. So now I'm going to

849
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 2: go the opposite way and say he's the opposite You know,

850
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,399
Speaker 2: the strange man in the overcoat is a taller guy.

851
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I think he's a medium guy. He's

852
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:43,839
Speaker 1: not short and squat, he's not super tall. He's in

853
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 1: the medium range. Number one, Get that out of the way.

854
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 1: Number two. Here's the problem with Clecker, I think is

855
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 1: that Louise said, I am not sleeping with this guy.

856
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 1: I am not having an affair with this guy. Klecker says,

857
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: I don't know if she killed her husban or not.

858
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: We were not having an active affair. We had some intimate,

859
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 1: inappropriate intimate moments. I had a girlfriend who was in

860
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 1: San Diego who is supposed to be moving up to Portland.

861
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 1: He says, basically, this hot woman, Louise, who was married,

862
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,320
Speaker 1: was hot for me, and a couple of things happened.

863
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 1: That was not a big deal. I wasn't interested in her.

864
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 1: I have no idea if she wanted anything deeper with me.

865
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: She didn't profess her love for me. I don't know

866
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 1: if she killed her husband he had no proof, and

867
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 1: Louise says, this guy's nuts. I did not sleep with

868
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: this guy at all. But the police are using Clecker's

869
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 1: story to really kind of bolster their idea of why

870
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:45,359
Speaker 1: would a woman who is a homemaker, whose husband makes

871
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 1: a good living, who seems to have a good marriage,

872
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:53,240
Speaker 1: why would she in nineteen twenty one kill the golden

873
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 1: goose and go with this trombone guy who doesn't have

874
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: a steady job. He brags about sleeping with her or

875
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 1: fooling around with her. I think that there is a

876
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 1: little bit of a disbelief of why this would happen.

877
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 1: But there's zero proof. I mean, Louise denies sleeping with

878
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 1: this guy, and he can't come up with anything. There's

879
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: no witnesses who saw them out. I mean, there's just nothing.

880
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 1: And I'll say one more thing, Paul, because I know

881
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 1: you probably want to say something. Here. His family, Harry's family,

882
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 1: and Louise's family all come from Missouri. No one believes

883
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 1: this story. Everybody is behind her, including Harry's brother. They've

884
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 1: known her the whole life. I mean, they live next

885
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 1: door to each other on this farm, and everyone says

886
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:38,320
Speaker 1: this is nuts. She did not do this at all,

887
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 1: and she wasn't sleeping with.

888
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 2: This guy, you know, the police saying that why would

889
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 2: Louise do this? Yes, it appears that her life with

890
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 2: Harry at the relationship with Harry at least on the

891
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 2: surface is good. On the outward appearances of things is good.

892
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 2: But we've seen time and time again that it's what

893
00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 2: the person is feeling on the inside. I right now

894
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 2: cannot just say, oh, no, you know, Louise is not involved.

895
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 2: It's like Louise very much could still be involved in this,

896
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 2: even though everybody, including her friends and Harry's family are

897
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 2: you know, saying no, there's no way she would have

898
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 2: done this. You know, right now, I've got a stage

899
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 2: crime scene and one of the individuals that has the

900
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:29,320
Speaker 2: access to Harry as he's laying in bed is Louise.

901
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 2: So she's still in my mind a suspect. The relationship

902
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 2: with this J. H. Klecker, you know, that has to

903
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 2: be drilled down on because now it's not to eliminate

904
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 2: other possibilities, but it doesn't seem like this is where

905
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 2: you have a random stranger who's broken into this house

906
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 2: and was trying to commit a burglary and then decided

907
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 2: to just you know, cut into Harry's throat. That's not

908
00:50:55,600 --> 00:51:01,240
Speaker 2: how these crimes occur. The staging really suggests that it's Louise,

909
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 2: this Clecker, or somebody else that's close to this family

910
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 2: circle that is committing this crime. And at least right now,

911
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 2: the two potential suspects, or that what I would say,

912
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 2: The two suspects are Louise and or jh. There may

913
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 2: be somebody else that comes along, but right now they're

914
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 2: the suspects and Harry's homicide.

915
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:27,359
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's continue on Louise and Harry's families. As

916
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 1: I said, all think this is crazy. This is not

917
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 1: what happened. Harry and Louise had a great marriage. Because

918
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: the whole family is in from out of town, the

919
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 1: trial is pushed up from September to July, so this

920
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 1: is less than two months after Harry is murdered. And

921
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: the prosecution, Boy, I was shocked when I read this.

922
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 1: They're looking at the death penalty for a woman.

923
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 2: So now we've moved from Louise being a witness under

924
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 2: arrest to Louise being charged for Harry's murder.

925
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 1: Right, and it is totally based on clicker what he

926
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:04,200
Speaker 1: tells the police, and he again is not saying she

927
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 1: didn't confess to me. I don't think she did. You know,

928
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 1: he's not saying anything except yeah, we had some inappropriate

929
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 1: relationship stuff. But that was it, I mean, he was

930
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 1: That was the extent of it, and they ran with this.

931
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 1: There's no other evidence. The police said, that's why we're

932
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:20,959
Speaker 1: arresting hers because of what this guy said.

933
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 2: It's flimsy, very flimsy. He's offering very interesting information for sure,

934
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:33,240
Speaker 2: as a witness, but you need to corroborate that somehow,

935
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:35,839
Speaker 2: some way, you know, And of course in this day

936
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 2: and age, we would be looking for physical evidence, you know,

937
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 2: such as you know, like this straight edge razor, is

938
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:46,359
Speaker 2: that Harry's blood on it? And if it is, that

939
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 2: likely is the murder weapon whose DNA is also on

940
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 2: this razor, you know, on the handle. I know they

941
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:58,360
Speaker 2: don't have that technology today, but you know this Trombone

942
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:01,000
Speaker 2: instructor saying, well, we had sort of inappropriate thing. She

943
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 2: was kind of coming on to me, and Louise is

944
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 2: completely denying it. You know, It's like, God, that's not

945
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:09,319
Speaker 2: enough to push this up to where, oh yeah, I'm

946
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 2: confident that Louise is Harry's killer. Yeah, you know, she's

947
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 2: still a suspect, and potentially a strong suspect. You know,

948
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 2: maybe there is some motive there, but I'm unconvinced right now.

949
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, let's talk about flimsy. One of the neighbors.

950
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,839
Speaker 1: The prosecutor loves this. One of the neighbors who came

951
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 1: to the house before the police showed up, one of

952
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 1: those contaminators I call them, said that Louise's side of

953
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 1: the bed did not look like it had been slept in,

954
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 1: Like the pillow was too fluffy. You know, I don't

955
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 1: know how I feel about that, and I know you're

956
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 1: One of the things you'll say is like, I don't

957
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 1: know if that makes a difference. Number One. To me,

958
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 1: it's what's more important is that there's no blood on her.

959
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 1: That seems a little bit more important than whether the

960
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 1: pillow was fluffy. And it's a neighbor, a layperson who's

961
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:58,359
Speaker 1: determining that to begin with, what do you think?

962
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's an observation, but it's sort of

963
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 2: like I would need to, you know, see the photos

964
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 2: of that to verify. Is there something that seems to

965
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 2: be inconsistent with Louise having slept on that side of

966
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 2: the bed that night. But that's very subjective. Now, the

967
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 2: blood on Louise or the lack of blood on Louise.

968
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 2: That's where I need to see the photos of the bed.

969
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 2: You know, I need to know the extent of the

970
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:25,720
Speaker 2: blood patterns. I need to know better, you know, the

971
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 2: the you know, the the blood patterns on Harry, in

972
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,399
Speaker 2: order to assess whether or not somebody could have been

973
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 2: on Louise's side of the bed and gotten up and

974
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:40,279
Speaker 2: left without getting any blood on them. And you know,

975
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:43,320
Speaker 2: part of that assessment is also, as I explained earlier,

976
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 2: well how much blood was there when Louise would have

977
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 2: been in the bed versus how much blood is being

978
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 2: seen at the time that these contaminators are walking into

979
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 2: the bedroom.

980
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:56,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and I'm not sure this occurs to

981
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:59,320
Speaker 1: the police. I mean, they really focus in on who

982
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,760
Speaker 1: is the most likely suspect and they can't get around Louise.

983
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 1: Now I will say, I mean Klecker. I don't know

984
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 1: how I feel about him. I don't know who to

985
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:12,359
Speaker 1: believe her or him, but I'm sure he is whiplashed

986
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 1: by what the prosecutor does. Klecker is the prosecutor star

987
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:18,879
Speaker 1: witnessing this, and the prosecutor cannot seem to decide whether

988
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 1: or not Clecker and Louise did this together or it

989
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 1: was Louise alone. So you've got this trombone teacher sitting

990
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:28,440
Speaker 1: on the stand testifying for the district attorney, and the

991
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 1: district attorney is in some ways accusing him of doing this.

992
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:35,319
Speaker 1: They cannot settle on anything, I will say this, so

993
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,880
Speaker 1: things get a little complicated. You have not I'm surprised

994
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 1: you haven't asked this yet. Did Harry have any money

995
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:43,359
Speaker 1: or did Harry have a life insurance policy? I'm sure

996
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 1: you were going to get to that though, right Well.

997
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 2: After looking at the house, I'm pretty confident that there

998
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 2: wasn't a ton of money in this family, you know,

999
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 2: most certainly it's all relative, you know, it's what is?

1000
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 2: What is something? I mean, I've seen a woman killed

1001
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 2: for five dollars, Yeah, you know, so it's all relative.

1002
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 2: I hadn't, you know, even form the thought of the

1003
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:10,400
Speaker 2: possibility of life insurance. I should have, but I didn't.

1004
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:13,720
Speaker 1: Okay, well, good, I'm glad I caught you in something

1005
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 1: I did not smart you. So they find out that

1006
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 1: Harry did have a life insurance, a modest one, although

1007
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 1: you're right, I mean it's all relative. Forty five hundred

1008
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 1: dollars in a life insurance policy today that would have

1009
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:29,360
Speaker 1: been about eighty thousand, which doesn't seem like it's a

1010
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:33,320
Speaker 1: lot to many people. And as you pointed out, modest neighborhood,

1011
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:37,800
Speaker 1: modest family. Sure, so there's that. Okay. The biggest weird

1012
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 1: thing that happens in this case is this Klecker is

1013
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:44,839
Speaker 1: on the stand and the prosecution sits down and there's

1014
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:50,480
Speaker 1: cross examination. Okay, Now Louise's defense attorney produces something and

1015
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:54,800
Speaker 1: it's a piece of evidence that shocks the whole courthouse, Okay,

1016
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 1: including Klecker. And the reason that he's able to do this,

1017
00:56:57,800 --> 00:56:59,240
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you what it is in a second,

1018
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 1: is that there is no discovery in nineteen twenty one.

1019
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 1: There are no discovery rules. Will you quickly and swiftly

1020
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:09,920
Speaker 1: explain the concept behind discovery rules and why they're important,

1021
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:14,560
Speaker 1: and how this lawyer can really throw a gotcha at

1022
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 1: Klecker on the stand, you know, in.

1023
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 2: A nutshell, and this isn't going to be you know,

1024
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 2: the real legal description. So any prosecutors out there listening

1025
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 2: to me, don't don't cringe too hard. But fundamentally that

1026
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 2: the prosecutors have to turn over everything that they have

1027
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:36,920
Speaker 2: in their case to the defendant's attorneys. This is the discovery.

1028
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 2: Now there are select items that can be withheld, but

1029
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 2: that's very limited. And fundamentally this process is that if

1030
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:54,320
Speaker 2: the people who are prosecuting the defendant have information half

1031
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 2: evidence that is potentially exculpatory, you know, that's what the

1032
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 2: defense attorneys are looking for. And that way, the discovery

1033
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 2: process guarantees that the defendant is able to mount the

1034
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 2: most rigorous defense possible with all the evidence and all

1035
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:18,440
Speaker 2: the information that the investigating agency in the prosecutor's office

1036
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 2: has compiled. And this is now where there's a case

1037
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 2: decision of Brady v. Maryland, which really cements the obligation

1038
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 2: of the prosecutor to the point of potentially being personally

1039
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:40,760
Speaker 2: liable if it is found that they've withheld potential exculpatory

1040
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 2: information from the defense. So like when I was working

1041
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 2: for the DA's office, one of the most impressive things

1042
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:51,960
Speaker 2: that I saw was how rigorous the prosecutors from my

1043
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:56,560
Speaker 2: office were at ensuring that the defense got everything that

1044
00:58:56,600 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 2: they could possibly get there's always going to be some

1045
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 2: some things that are contentious in this adversarial system as

1046
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:07,080
Speaker 2: to whether or not it was actually turned over under

1047
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 2: discovery or not. Now, in this scenario, it sounds like

1048
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 2: Louise's attorney is producing evidence. Now the defense doesn't have

1049
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 2: the same discovery obligation, you know. So this is where

1050
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:26,000
Speaker 2: if the defense discovered evidence, and sometimes you know, defense

1051
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 2: attorneys hire their own investigators, et cetera, then that is

1052
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 2: something that they could potentially produce if there is sufficient

1053
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:39,680
Speaker 2: relevance to defending you know, the defendant. Sometimes the defense

1054
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:42,920
Speaker 2: will do let's say, scientific testing on the people's evidence,

1055
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 2: evidence collected by you know, the investigating agency. Well there,

1056
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:51,120
Speaker 2: now there's a little bit more of okay, you need

1057
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:54,960
Speaker 2: to inform the prosecutors in terms of what you know

1058
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:57,920
Speaker 2: you've done with with our evidence, you know, with the

1059
00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:02,600
Speaker 2: people's evidence. But under this scenario, it doesn't sound like

1060
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 2: the situation would require the defense attorney to have divulged

1061
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:12,200
Speaker 2: anything up front under any type of discovery process. And

1062
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 2: I may be completely wrong, but that's my understanding, yep.

1063
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 1: And you're right. I mean that's what leads to this

1064
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:22,560
Speaker 1: what I can only describe as a Perry Mason moment

1065
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 1: in the courtroom. So let me know you what happens.

1066
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 1: Louise's lawyer reaches down looking at Cleicker into a bag

1067
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:35,800
Speaker 1: and he produces an overcoat, and we remember the notorious

1068
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:39,240
Speaker 1: overcoat that the suspect, Louise says, was wearing as he

1069
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:42,800
Speaker 1: was running out the door after murdering her husband. It

1070
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 1: is bloodstained. There's a hunting knife in one pocket. There

1071
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:51,880
Speaker 1: is trombone. I really want to get through this without laughing.

1072
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:53,280
Speaker 1: There is sheet music.

1073
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:55,320
Speaker 2: In the other pocket for trombone.

1074
01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:57,720
Speaker 1: Yes, try, yes, it would be not great if it

1075
01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:02,280
Speaker 1: were clarinet, but yes, for a trombone. So there's trombone,

1076
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:05,480
Speaker 1: sheet music. There's a knife in the other pocket. And

1077
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:08,800
Speaker 1: then it's blood soaked, they say, with human blood. So

1078
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 1: I have never gotten I have looked everywhere. I've never

1079
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 1: gotten a satisfactory answer about whose blood this could have been.

1080
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 1: Of course, the defense attorney is proclaiming that this is

1081
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:23,720
Speaker 1: Clecker's coat, that you know, he's the one who murdered Harry,

1082
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:28,040
Speaker 1: and then he discarded this, so then I have more information,

1083
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 1: but I want to get your reaction first. I don't

1084
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 1: know whose blood this is. They say it's human. I

1085
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:36,880
Speaker 1: am dubious that this would be human blood. I mean,

1086
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:40,400
Speaker 1: unless we really believe that this is the overcoat of

1087
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:41,880
Speaker 1: the person who murdered Harry.

1088
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:46,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know this right off the bat, there's issues.

1089
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:51,240
Speaker 2: You know, of course today need to see is that

1090
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 2: Harry's blood on the coat. But going back to nineteen

1091
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 2: twenty one, you know, this is where if Harry is

1092
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:02,000
Speaker 2: in essence, is his the front of his throat, his

1093
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 2: windpipe is being transsected, and the offender immediately runs off.

1094
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 2: It's entirely possible that offender has zero of Harry's blood

1095
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:15,680
Speaker 2: on him or her And that's where evaluating the blood

1096
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 2: patterns at the scene and Harry's injuries, all of that

1097
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:20,360
Speaker 2: has to come into play as to whether or not

1098
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 2: the blood patterns on this overcoat are even consistent with

1099
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:28,960
Speaker 2: the crime scene. You know, so, I mean this could

1100
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:32,880
Speaker 2: very well just be mocked up evidence. At this point.

1101
01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:35,800
Speaker 2: There was absolutely no chain of custody. It's not being documented.

1102
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 2: It doesn't sound like as to where it was collected from,

1103
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 2: you know, who's had possession of it, documenting that the knife,

1104
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:46,080
Speaker 2: the trombone music, you know, the blood was all there

1105
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:50,280
Speaker 2: when that overcoat was first found. So, you know, I'm

1106
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:54,320
Speaker 2: very skeptical about this evidence at least right now. You know,

1107
01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 2: it just seems like this seems too I'm going to

1108
01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:01,160
Speaker 2: use the term staged again. I mean, come on, trombone

1109
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:02,440
Speaker 2: music inside the pocket.

1110
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 1: Well, listen to this. Louise's dad is the one who

1111
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:09,880
Speaker 1: found it. You didn't even take a sip of your drink,

1112
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 1: you put it right back down.

1113
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:14,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well yeah, but is the dad trying to put

1114
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:18,560
Speaker 2: the suspicion on J. H. Klecker? You know, my daughter's innocent.

1115
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:22,520
Speaker 2: He's the killer. You know, this is where and there's

1116
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:26,360
Speaker 2: questions about the veracity of the evidence right off the bat,

1117
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:30,280
Speaker 2: and that's where, you know, definitely investigation into this evidence,

1118
01:03:30,640 --> 01:03:33,800
Speaker 2: forensic testing into this evidence has to be done in

1119
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:37,720
Speaker 2: order to even determine does it have relevance to this case.

1120
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:39,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things is

1121
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:41,920
Speaker 1: that he found it. He said he found it in

1122
01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:46,880
Speaker 1: the neighborhood, rolled up under a fern plant. And you know,

1123
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:50,160
Speaker 1: one of the issues that the police say is that.

1124
01:03:50,200 --> 01:03:52,160
Speaker 1: And then he turned it over to the defense attorney.

1125
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:55,320
Speaker 1: The police say, listen, how long do you think this

1126
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 1: has been here? And of course the dad's like, well,

1127
01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 1: obviously the killer deposited it there and hid it there

1128
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 1: after the killing, which was four weeks earlier. It had

1129
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 1: rained numerous times and there was no sign of rain

1130
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:08,880
Speaker 1: water washing out this blood. And the sheet music was

1131
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:12,920
Speaker 1: yeah perfect. I mean, I'm surprised they didn't ask Klecker

1132
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:16,480
Speaker 1: to perform whatever the song was that was in his

1133
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:17,600
Speaker 1: pocket at the time.

1134
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:20,520
Speaker 2: Well, you know, the complexity is this is now being

1135
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 2: produced by the defense in court, so there isn't an

1136
01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:28,520
Speaker 2: opportunity to really scrutinize this evidence. And this is where

1137
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:32,800
Speaker 2: you know, the prosecutor I think, would be very much

1138
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:35,720
Speaker 2: in the right to be able to object to relevancy. Yeah,

1139
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:39,880
Speaker 2: you know, without you know, further scrutiny of that evidence,

1140
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 2: not just the dad getting on the stand and saying

1141
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:45,959
Speaker 2: I found it here. There needs to be a deep

1142
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 2: dive into this evidence. Do you determine whether or not

1143
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 2: you know, it is what the defense claims it is.

1144
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:55,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, none of that happens. I mean, they can't

1145
01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:57,480
Speaker 1: get it thrown out. The jury has heard it, the

1146
01:04:57,560 --> 01:04:59,800
Speaker 1: judge is allowing it to be heard. This is the

1147
01:04:59,880 --> 01:05:02,040
Speaker 1: life asked major murder trial in Oregon to have an

1148
01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:06,960
Speaker 1: all male jury. They deliberate for thirty minutes, that's it,

1149
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:09,680
Speaker 1: half an hour, and they come back with a verdict.

1150
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:13,280
Speaker 1: Her life is on the line. This is a capital case.

1151
01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:16,840
Speaker 1: What do you think, Paul Holes, they came up with

1152
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:18,600
Speaker 1: guilty or not guilty?

1153
01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:22,160
Speaker 2: Well, there's what I think they should have come up with,

1154
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:27,840
Speaker 2: based on the case against Louise. But my fear is

1155
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 2: is that with such a short deliberation, all male jury,

1156
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:35,440
Speaker 2: this Perry Mason moment with the overcoat, I have a

1157
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:38,280
Speaker 2: feeling that they convicted Louise.

1158
01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:43,640
Speaker 1: No, they acquitted her. Oh wow, I think that there

1159
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:46,360
Speaker 1: was enough. There was you know, witnesses who were saying, well,

1160
01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 1: the coat could have been there, and they were him

1161
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:50,560
Speaker 1: and Haun. I don't think anybody liked Klecker because he

1162
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:54,080
Speaker 1: came off as leezy. And I still think in nineteen

1163
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:56,320
Speaker 1: twenty one, there was absolutely the belief that a woman

1164
01:05:56,600 --> 01:06:00,200
Speaker 1: couldn't have done this. She didn't testify, and that was

1165
01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:04,760
Speaker 1: that they never found out or never convicted anybody of

1166
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:08,200
Speaker 1: murdering Harry and Louise and the two kids, the boy

1167
01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:10,920
Speaker 1: and the girl leave town and she dies in nineteen

1168
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:12,720
Speaker 1: eighty six at the age of ninety one.

1169
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 2: Oh Wow.

1170
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:16,800
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's the end of that story. I mean,

1171
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:17,560
Speaker 1: what do you think.

1172
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:21,760
Speaker 2: I don't have a problem with Louise being acquitted, though

1173
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:27,320
Speaker 2: I'm still think that she is potentially Harry's killer. Yeah,

1174
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:30,040
Speaker 2: I think the prosecution jumped the gun on charging her,

1175
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:35,120
Speaker 2: didn't build up a good enough case. Nor am I

1176
01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:38,960
Speaker 2: convinced about this J. H. Klecker not having any involvement.

1177
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:41,919
Speaker 2: I think this investigation got up to a point where

1178
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:45,760
Speaker 2: two suspects were developed and they could have acted independently

1179
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:49,960
Speaker 2: or they could have acted in concert, and they didn't

1180
01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:57,400
Speaker 2: do enough to incriminate or exonerate either one of these suspects.

1181
01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:01,400
Speaker 2: Further investigation was needed before the before or anybody was charged.

1182
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:04,280
Speaker 2: And you know, now, unfortunately, you know it's over one

1183
01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:08,680
Speaker 2: hundred years later. You know, Harry's death is there is

1184
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:10,000
Speaker 2: no justice, there's no answer.

1185
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:13,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, two kids with no dad. Yeah, boy, what a story.

1186
01:07:13,960 --> 01:07:17,080
Speaker 1: And I think that it was it really did come

1187
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 1: down to that he said, she said, and planted evidence,

1188
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:27,200
Speaker 1: weird evidence, sleazy trombone teachers. I just think this was

1189
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:28,320
Speaker 1: a complicated case.

1190
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:32,200
Speaker 2: Well, and I know the way that I would be

1191
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:35,440
Speaker 2: looking at this case if I was with the investigating

1192
01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:38,200
Speaker 2: agency is okay, one of the suspects has been acquitted,

1193
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:42,360
Speaker 2: can't go after Louise anymore due to double jeopardy. However,

1194
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:46,080
Speaker 2: j Je Klecker is still in play, and that now

1195
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:50,720
Speaker 2: let's really try to determine was he involved or not,

1196
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:56,320
Speaker 2: And there could be all sorts of investigative tactics used

1197
01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:59,680
Speaker 2: in order to try to you know, wean that out,

1198
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:06,000
Speaker 2: including potentially gaining cooperation from Louise because she now could

1199
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:09,320
Speaker 2: turn stace witness and said, yeah, I hired Klecker to

1200
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:11,960
Speaker 2: kill my husband, but you can't do anything about it

1201
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:16,000
Speaker 2: because I've been acquitted, you know, But she could say

1202
01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:18,559
Speaker 2: he's he was the man in the overcoat. You know,

1203
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:20,960
Speaker 2: there's all sorts of things that could have happened if

1204
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:23,880
Speaker 2: they decided to pursue the case. But you know, I've

1205
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:27,640
Speaker 2: seen sort of the philosophy with prosecutors is that, well,

1206
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:30,600
Speaker 2: we knew we had the right person, they just got acquitted,

1207
01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:34,040
Speaker 2: and therefore we're not going to pursue the case any furthers.

1208
01:08:34,320 --> 01:08:38,320
Speaker 2: I've got a woman in the early seventies dumped, had

1209
01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:42,720
Speaker 2: been raped seemen evidence. Vaginally they charged a guy and

1210
01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:46,639
Speaker 2: he was acquitted of her murder. You know, many decades before,

1211
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:49,280
Speaker 2: and I was like, well, I'm convinced that he is

1212
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:53,120
Speaker 2: her killer, where's the DNA? And the prosecutor was like,

1213
01:08:53,400 --> 01:08:56,240
Speaker 2: what doesn't matter. It's like, it's an unsolved case. If

1214
01:08:56,240 --> 01:08:59,200
Speaker 2: it's an acquittal, it's an unsolved case. We now have

1215
01:08:59,280 --> 01:09:02,040
Speaker 2: the technology, you know, prove whether or not the person

1216
01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:06,000
Speaker 2: acquitted was the actual killer, or maybe we would actually

1217
01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:08,120
Speaker 2: find the real killer and be able to arrest and

1218
01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:12,240
Speaker 2: charge that person, you know. So it sounds like in

1219
01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:16,880
Speaker 2: Harry's homicide. You know, once Louise is acquitted, then you know,

1220
01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:20,200
Speaker 2: the investigating agency in the prosecutor's office just drop pursuing

1221
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:23,559
Speaker 2: it because they were convinced that Louise was Harry's killer.

1222
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:25,840
Speaker 1: They put all their eggs in one basket, and then

1223
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:30,599
Speaker 1: that basket got acquitted in left Town. So there you go. Well,

1224
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:33,040
Speaker 1: next week we will not have this type of case.

1225
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:36,960
Speaker 1: I'm going to stay away from both straight razors, which

1226
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:40,559
Speaker 1: scare me, and also having knives, and we'll be going

1227
01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:42,679
Speaker 1: for a different weapon. I can tell you that already.

1228
01:09:42,920 --> 01:09:45,200
Speaker 2: All right, Well, as always, I'm looking forward to it.

1229
01:09:45,479 --> 01:09:46,599
Speaker 1: All right, see you next week.

1230
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:47,519
Speaker 2: All right, Thanks Kith.

1231
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:54,000
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

1232
01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:57,360
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia

1233
01:09:57,439 --> 01:09:59,799
Speaker 2: dot com slash Buried Bones Sources.

1234
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:02,440
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1235
01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:06,920
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1236
01:10:07,200 --> 01:10:09,480
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1237
01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:12,040
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1238
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:14,360
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1239
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:18,719
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

1240
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:22,400
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1241
01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:23,639
Speaker 1: Barry Bones Pod.

1242
01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:26,639
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1243
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:28,680
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decote the

1244
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:30,920
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

1245
01:10:31,040 --> 01:10:35,320
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold

1246
01:10:35,360 --> 01:10:37,160
Speaker 1: Cases is also available now