Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't know. You never know stories of
Speaker 1: things we simply don't know the answer too. Well. Hey there,
Speaker 1: and welcome to Thinking Sideways the podcast. As always it's
Speaker 1: my Turn, which means I am Steve, as always, it's
Speaker 1: your turn, as this time it's my yeas, I'm always Steve,
Speaker 1: you are always ste except that week I was Joe,
Speaker 1: which was weird. It was really weird. I didn't like
Speaker 1: it very much. I don't think the fans like they
Speaker 1: got a lot of heil over that way. But I
Speaker 1: am Steve as always, joined by Devin and Joe, and
Speaker 1: once again we have another mystery to look into. This
Speaker 1: is a listener suggestion. We've been trying to work through
Speaker 1: the backlog, which but we have a big one. We
Speaker 1: have a lot of suggestions, which is great, but that
Speaker 1: list has gotten huge. This particular story that we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about was suggested by Todd quite a long
Speaker 1: time ago. So sorry that it took us a while, Todd,
Speaker 1: But sorry, man, I hope you're still listening. Todd. Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm curious. I didn't get angry that we've never used
Speaker 1: his suggestion. Stopped listening to us. Well, it was a
Speaker 1: great suggestion, because what Todd suggested was that we look
Speaker 1: at Stanley Kubrick's The Shining because it turns out there
Speaker 1: are a ton of theories on the interpretation of what
Speaker 1: the movie is all about. It's surprising actually have many
Speaker 1: weird hidden meetings people seemed to find in the movie.
Speaker 1: And I hadn't seen it in like twenty years. So
Speaker 1: I I remember several years ago I watched there's a
Speaker 1: documentary which is going to come up, so we'll just
Speaker 1: talk about it now, Room two thirty seven. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: several times now. But I remember watching it before and
Speaker 1: thinking I don't remember any of this stuff. I've since
Speaker 1: watched The Shining about two and a half times in
Speaker 1: a week and a half, so my house is shining
Speaker 1: no longer allowed. I got into a lot of trouble
Speaker 1: for continually watching that. Well, I I've not I had
Speaker 1: never seen it before. Um, because it may or may
Speaker 1: not shock our listeners to know that I hate horror
Speaker 1: movie like, I don't watch them at all. Um. In fact,
Speaker 1: if there's like even a remotely scary tense soundtrack to something,
Speaker 1: I probably won't watch it. This goes back to legitimately,
Speaker 1: I think I was a year and a half old.
Speaker 1: My mom tried to show me Bamby. She had never
Speaker 1: seen it before. Well, and you know, the moms and
Speaker 1: her group said, oh, don't worry, the kids don't know that.
Speaker 1: Spoiler alert. The mom dies, you know, the kids don't
Speaker 1: realize that, and you know, the music kind of comes
Speaker 1: up and I stand up on the couch. I'm a
Speaker 1: year and a half old. I stand up on the
Speaker 1: couch as the music is just like you know, and
Speaker 1: Bambi gets out of the fire, and I just turned
Speaker 1: to my mom and go, Mama, where's his mama? Mama, Mama, Mama,
Speaker 1: says mama. And my mom just like just gently took
Speaker 1: through mote and turned it off and said she comes
Speaker 1: back at the end. Let's go do something else. And
Speaker 1: I think that that moment with the music is the
Speaker 1: very good representation of I can't. And this one was
Speaker 1: so I mean, I texted you about it. In the
Speaker 1: middle of it. I was like, do I really have
Speaker 1: to do this? Because what is this movie about? Why
Speaker 1: are we watching it? And I just cleaned up that
Speaker 1: was super clean. There were yeah, I did not. I
Speaker 1: was not not excited about watching it. It was the soundtrack.
Speaker 1: I think that if it had a different soundtrack, if
Speaker 1: it had wacky Sacks in it. But see that's the
Speaker 1: thing that that's it's a very it's totally cubriic. That
Speaker 1: movie is absolutely cubic. And smoiler alert for everybody. If
Speaker 1: you haven't seen The Shining, I know you were going
Speaker 1: to get around to it, and it's only like thirty
Speaker 1: five years old. We're going to talk about this movie
Speaker 1: and you might want to go wrap the movie first,
Speaker 1: come back in a couple of hours when you finished
Speaker 1: The Shining. Yeah, it's a good movie. I know that
Speaker 1: Vin didn't like it. No, No, I liked it. I
Speaker 1: just don't like movies like that. I And the thing is,
Speaker 1: is like I like all of the other Kubrick movies
Speaker 1: I've ever seen, So it was just this this was
Speaker 1: kind of an outlier because he always wanted to do horror,
Speaker 1: so this was a bit of an outlier for his catalog. Yeah.
Speaker 1: He uh, he actually has a he did a little
Speaker 1: bit of everything. He did warror movies and horror movies.
Speaker 1: I mean you've seen like, well it's obviously Doctor Strange
Speaker 1: Love is that's one of my favorite movies of all times.
Speaker 1: You guys know that because I like I title all
Speaker 1: of the names of my scripts in that fashion. I
Speaker 1: don't know if you guys have picked up on that,
Speaker 1: to stop that and love the bomb, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: how I learned to stop worrying and love the toy
Speaker 1: tiles and you know whatever. And one of my faves
Speaker 1: is Clockwork Orange. I like that one, which is another
Speaker 1: darkly humorous movie. It's really it's really very funny, but
Speaker 1: it's it's in a very dark way. Yeah, he's he's
Speaker 1: a very unit he was very unique director. Yeah, absolutely
Speaker 1: very talented, absolutely talented. But let's let's go ahead and
Speaker 1: kind of step into what we're going to talk about here.
Speaker 1: I want to talk more about how much I hate
Speaker 1: horror movies. We we could do a whole episode on that.
Speaker 1: Let's do that one later. You might turn our listeners off, okay, um,
Speaker 1: But now, what I was gonna say when we were
Speaker 1: talking about all the theories is some of these theories
Speaker 1: you kind of gotta stand on one leg, hold your
Speaker 1: mouth in just the right way, and then maybe see it.
Speaker 1: And some of them are based on the evidence they
Speaker 1: give you are really really obvious. Yeah, And I when
Speaker 1: I watched Room two three seven, I was having a
Speaker 1: really hard time not doing that thing that people do
Speaker 1: sometimes when you sit in front of the TV and
Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, that's true, Yeah, that thing is the
Speaker 1: real thing. Oh no, wait, I know you said that contract.
Speaker 1: Oh that contradicts it. You know, just accepting the facts
Speaker 1: as they were given, and I know that. We'll talk
Speaker 1: about that a little bit too, yes, because you cannot
Speaker 1: do that. But are you too ready? You're ready for
Speaker 1: movie time? All right, who's got the popcorn? Okay, sweet,
Speaker 1: first bit of business. Let's talk about The Shining not
Speaker 1: the movie but the book by Stephen King. By Stephen King.
Speaker 1: It's a little different. It is. King wrote the book
Speaker 1: and it came out in ninety seven, and the baseline
Speaker 1: story is the same, and I'm gonna give you a
Speaker 1: baseline version. It's not exact because they do diverge from
Speaker 1: each other so much. Ye. Essentially, they're going to spend
Speaker 1: the winter and it's the Torrance family the Overlook Hotel
Speaker 1: that it's in the mountains of Colorado. They're gonna watch
Speaker 1: the hotel and maintain it over the course of the winter,
Speaker 1: and they're going to be snowed in. There's three main
Speaker 1: characters at that point. We've got the father who is Jack,
Speaker 1: the mother who is Wendy, and the son who is
Speaker 1: five year old Danny. That's our main characters. And Danny
Speaker 1: has telepathy. Yes, it turns out Danny can see things.
Speaker 1: He can shine, he can shine as it is called.
Speaker 1: So you can not only read minds communicate telepathically, but
Speaker 1: I also can see things that happened in the past
Speaker 1: and in the future or are going to happen. And
Speaker 1: he has the what's his name in the movie, tom
Speaker 1: Tommy Tommy, but that's but that's only in the movie.
Speaker 1: In the movie he has Tony. But in the book
Speaker 1: Tony is there. I didn't read the book. Sorry, and
Speaker 1: you gotta okay what Devon is doing, by the way, everybody,
Speaker 1: and she is imitating Danny with a little the pointer
Speaker 1: finger up and down to talk, so right now, my yeah,
Speaker 1: that's yeah, up and down conversation that is not present
Speaker 1: in the book. He talks to Tony in his head.
Speaker 1: So the finger thing is a way to visualize it
Speaker 1: for film. Yeah, you know, in interior monologue is really
Speaker 1: hard to do. It is, so what happens of course Danny,
Speaker 1: these things, those things are affecting his father his father
Speaker 1: goes nuts, he tries to kill the family. The father dies,
Speaker 1: and Wendy and Danny escaped the overlook. That's the short version.
Speaker 1: That's a very even out because again they died. But
Speaker 1: the hotel is like haunted. I guess you could say
Speaker 1: it's inhabited by very evil a very evil presence. I
Speaker 1: would say evil presence is the right way to go
Speaker 1: about it. Yeah. So, like I said, King published the
Speaker 1: book in seventy seven. Cuber got ahold of it, decided
Speaker 1: he wanted to make it into a movie, but of
Speaker 1: course he needed to make changes for because, as we
Speaker 1: just said, internal monologues don't work on film. Well, you
Speaker 1: can do it if you're going to have the narrator. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but that's a bad format for hormone. A movie that
Speaker 1: was very faithful to the book was very loathing in
Speaker 1: Las Vegas, and it really really sucked. It didn't work
Speaker 1: in his book. The book was hilarious and the movie
Speaker 1: just sucked. Yeah, it didn't make it. Well. So Cubert no,
Speaker 1: just so he gets ahole of King and he says,
Speaker 1: I want to make this into a movie, but I
Speaker 1: need to make changes. And King, being flattered that Stanley
Speaker 1: Cubrick is asking to turn his book into a movie, says,
Speaker 1: go ahead, change what you want, not realizing quite how
Speaker 1: much was gonna get changed. Pretty much everything. King hates
Speaker 1: this movie. Ye absolutely hates the movie. And and it's
Speaker 1: because of the fact that Kubrick went in and slashed
Speaker 1: so much out and then changed so many things that
Speaker 1: he had to change. But it's it's really interesting. Came
Speaker 1: out to be. It turned out to be a good story,
Speaker 1: which is not the same story, not quite the same,
Speaker 1: quite the same story. Now we're going to focus on
Speaker 1: the movie, so we're going to talk about the actors briefly.
Speaker 1: Here we have four actors we're gonna talk about. So
Speaker 1: Jack Torrence, the father was played by Jack Nicholson. Very
Speaker 1: young Jack, very and yet already balding. Jack Nicholson Warning
Speaker 1: to you people, I guess it's too late because you've
Speaker 1: already shut off the podcast and you're running the movie
Speaker 1: right now streaming on Netflix. But Jack Nicholson's hair is
Speaker 1: kind of wild in this movie. It's not on Netflix.
Speaker 1: It's no, you can't scream it. I think Amazon Prime
Speaker 1: is where I watched it. Is it sounding like an ad?
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Our next character is going to be Wendy Torrence,
Speaker 1: the mother. She was played by Shelley Duval. She's a
Speaker 1: great character. She's yeah, yeah, we're leave it at that.
Speaker 1: We have the son Danny, who is played by a
Speaker 1: five year old boy named Danny Lloyd, who fun fact,
Speaker 1: didn't know that they were filming a horror movie and
Speaker 1: in fact didn't even see the movie or like find
Speaker 1: out anything about it until he was like fourteen. It's
Speaker 1: like nine years later. His parents finally said, yeah, alright, fine,
Speaker 1: you can see this movie. And apparently he was like horrified.
Speaker 1: He had no idea it was a drama. Did you
Speaker 1: watch the making of that's out there? And one there's
Speaker 1: one guy I cannot remember his name, but he was
Speaker 1: basically Danny's handler. He hung out with Danny, he did everything.
Speaker 1: So as soon as the scene was done, Hey Danny,
Speaker 1: let's go do this, he grabbed his hand. He run
Speaker 1: down the hall like they were totally keeping him sheltered.
Speaker 1: They do this with children with child actors a lot. Um.
Speaker 1: There's this movie called The Fall and one of the
Speaker 1: characters is a little girl who only speaks Spanish um,
Speaker 1: and they actually had to film all of her scenes
Speaker 1: in sequence as she learned English so her English would
Speaker 1: get better. And the um, one of the other characters
Speaker 1: is a paraplegic. He can't walk, and she literally thought
Speaker 1: that he was paralyzed until the premiere of the movie
Speaker 1: when she saw him walking down the carpet and she
Speaker 1: was horrified. I think they do that a lot with kids,
Speaker 1: right right, I mean, not sorry, not like the worst,
Speaker 1: but she was. She was shocked. Yeah, but we have
Speaker 1: I'm sorry tangent. Okay, not on this tangent. They were
Speaker 1: on this one last thing. I guess I need to
Speaker 1: go back and watch the movie a game, because I'm
Speaker 1: trying to remember if they found a way to keep
Speaker 1: the kid out of the frames. In the scenes when
Speaker 1: they're in the bathroom and Jack Nicholson is chopping the
Speaker 1: door down, he wasn't in there, and he was already
Speaker 1: escaped the bathroom. No, no, he started to head. He
Speaker 1: already got he was already out. He was already out.
Speaker 1: But then when when Jack Nicholson is chopping at the
Speaker 1: door of the apartment, was he was he not? They
Speaker 1: find a way to keep him out of those scenes?
Speaker 1: The chopping only happens on the bathroom door. Your way
Speaker 1: Ahead sir, No, No, he chopped. He chopped his way
Speaker 1: through the apartment door too, and then opened and then
Speaker 1: turned the doorknob. They yeah, but they have him in
Speaker 1: the bathroom and they do cut. It's all cut scenes
Speaker 1: in it. So they managed that they managed to actually
Speaker 1: keep him off the set for those Well I don't
Speaker 1: know if he wasn't off of the but I imagine
Speaker 1: they had him somewhere else. Yeah, I imagine he was
Speaker 1: in the cafeteria. Anyway. Sorry, we have one another act
Speaker 1: actor that we need to talk about, and that is
Speaker 1: the guy who played the character of Dick Halleran, and
Speaker 1: he was Scatman Cruthers and he was a great He
Speaker 1: was my favorite. I agree. He did a phenomenal job.
Speaker 1: Was really good. So he was really interesting. But but
Speaker 1: those are are four characters. And that character does or
Speaker 1: does it not exist in the book because he does,
Speaker 1: he does, he does. He does not experience the same
Speaker 1: fate in the book. That is a complete diversion in
Speaker 1: the movie. And that's actually the one thing about about
Speaker 1: the movie that's very King asked, very very Stephen King,
Speaker 1: like he has a way of having this, you know,
Speaker 1: because he comes all the way across country and comes
Speaker 1: in and immediately it gets murdered. Just like that, You
Speaker 1: no chance to do much of anything. Yeah, that's the
Speaker 1: kind of thing that Stephen King would do. Yes, in
Speaker 1: the book, that wasn't it. He made the hero in
Speaker 1: the book. But let's go ahead and move away from
Speaker 1: the story for a moment before we because we've got
Speaker 1: what is it? We got just a little bit more,
Speaker 1: and then we're gonna start talking about theories. The last
Speaker 1: thing I want to talk about is Stanley cubric himself.
Speaker 1: He If you're not familiar with him, you need to
Speaker 1: go watch his movies. I wouldn't say that I'm not
Speaker 1: a huge Cubic fan, but I appreciate them. But I
Speaker 1: also do you guys, I know you remember this to
Speaker 1: have a couple of years ago, I went I watched
Speaker 1: two thousand one of Space on he for the first time.
Speaker 1: I hated it. I hated. I was like, I don't
Speaker 1: get that movie. We talked it with Toynb Tiles. You know,
Speaker 1: we were talking about Cubic idea resurrects on dead on
Speaker 1: planet Jupiter, and you were just like, I hate that
Speaker 1: thing and hate it and now that I don't understand
Speaker 1: search on it I started to get it. But that's
Speaker 1: what that's the way Cuber movies. Absolutely, he didn't believe
Speaker 1: in just giving it all up front. He would make
Speaker 1: you think about, well, you know what. I think that
Speaker 1: his style was so the best way I can describe
Speaker 1: it is that he intentionally wanted you to leave the
Speaker 1: theater thinking that you had missed some grander point, because
Speaker 1: usually you had right but even if you hadn't, even
Speaker 1: if it was kind of straightforward. And that's why there's
Speaker 1: all these theories about all these different movies, is that
Speaker 1: you always end his movies thinking you've missed some huge point,
Speaker 1: even if there's not. It's just his way of show
Speaker 1: giving you the story. That's just the way that he
Speaker 1: tells stories. I guess. I mean, I didn't let in.
Speaker 1: I didn't leave the theater after the clock recordings thinking
Speaker 1: I missed the point. But maybe I did. I don't know. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think for me, you know, as you
Speaker 1: read a little bit about him and you you start
Speaker 1: to actually kind of intellectualize about the movies, you realize like, oh,
Speaker 1: there's so much of this kind of ethos around him
Speaker 1: that there must have been some bigger message there. It
Speaker 1: wasn't just about this one thing, even with you know,
Speaker 1: Doctor Strangelove. The more you start to watch his movies,
Speaker 1: the more you're like, Wow, did I miss something? Did
Speaker 1: I like, was there some really poignant thing there that
Speaker 1: I totally missed? And I think that even right though,
Speaker 1: even if there wasn't something, because I don't think there
Speaker 1: always is, but that's the way I would describe it. No,
Speaker 1: I would say, that's that's not that's an app description. Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And all one last thing before you run off to
Speaker 1: him to watch his entire catalog. If you're not going
Speaker 1: to do that, another one I would recommend his Paths
Speaker 1: of Glory with Kirk Douglas. Have you guys ever seen
Speaker 1: that one? No? No, I don't know that I've ever
Speaker 1: seen that one. Yeah, that's good movie. Okay, Well, let's
Speaker 1: let's give the a little bit of bio data here on.
Speaker 1: Stanley made his first movie in nineteen fifty one, which
Speaker 1: was a It was a really short documentary. He acquired
Speaker 1: funding for it himself. I mean, in fifty one, it
Speaker 1: cost a thousand bucks and he had to raise that
Speaker 1: cash on his own. His last movie was in nine
Speaker 1: Eyes Wide Shut, which I believe didn't Spielberg finish that movie?
Speaker 1: You know, I swear I saw something that said that
Speaker 1: he wasn't involved in them, like an interview. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: remember reading aim at it somewhere because apparently the movie
Speaker 1: wasn't completed, but maybe it wasn't Spielberg. It feels like
Speaker 1: this is the sort of thing that like like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's kind kind of cool lore if it is, but
Speaker 1: I don't think we'll probably ever confirm it. Yeah. Um, well,
Speaker 1: I I think we've talked. We've talked a lot. I mean,
Speaker 1: so far we told you about Stanley, and the last
Speaker 1: thing I want to tell you is that, including the
Speaker 1: short documentaries or the short films he made in the beginning,
Speaker 1: he did a total of sixteen movies in forty years.
Speaker 1: A lot. No, but but you also need to remember
Speaker 1: that his movies took anywhere from one to two years
Speaker 1: to complete, after which point he was exhausted because he
Speaker 1: did everything. He did all of he you know, he's
Speaker 1: involved in our direction, in the cinematography and the soundtracks.
Speaker 1: He did all of the editing. He had cutting it
Speaker 1: wasn't he Yeah, well yeah, and he had he had
Speaker 1: it all sent to his home and he he did
Speaker 1: all of the edits, and and the thing about it
Speaker 1: is is he would take some scenes over, he would
Speaker 1: take many, many takes. Well, we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: this later. It's like that a lot. Yeah it is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well I think that might be one of the shortest
Speaker 1: descriptions we've ever done on the show. But we're done
Speaker 1: talking about all those things. We're gonna jump right into theories. Well,
Speaker 1: it's not really theories, is it. Theories and interpretations. These
Speaker 1: are just or just not our theories, but theories that
Speaker 1: other people have. Oh yeah, well most of times theories
Speaker 1: aren't our theories. But but yeah, I guess, yeah, interpret
Speaker 1: how would you describe it? No, I guess theories about
Speaker 1: because it's not really like theories of how this thing happened, right,
Speaker 1: it's theories of what mean okay, and also why perhaps
Speaker 1: Kuber did it? There we go meanings and reasons this
Speaker 1: week on Thinking Side Wins. Okay, well, we're going to
Speaker 1: start out with my favorite one. Yes, we're gonna start
Speaker 1: out with the first meaning slash reason, which is the
Speaker 1: moon landing. Because it was fake let's talk about Well, no, no,
Speaker 1: these theorists starn't saying that it was faked. They're saying
Speaker 1: we made it to the moon, just that we didn't
Speaker 1: make it to the moon at this particular moment where
Speaker 1: the footage isn't right. So let's yeah here, let me
Speaker 1: let me get this. There's actually more. It's more than that, right,
Speaker 1: It's more than just saying, oh, you didn't make it
Speaker 1: to the moon and we did it on a sound stage.
Speaker 1: Because they're not saying we didn't make it to the moon.
Speaker 1: They're saying that the footage that was sent of Neil
Speaker 1: Armstrong and buzz Aldren hopping around on the moon for
Speaker 1: twenty some odd minutes was fake. Was fake? Right, that's
Speaker 1: what it said. Yeah, I do. I think it's important
Speaker 1: to clear that. That is a good point. But why
Speaker 1: if we made it to the moon, because we have
Speaker 1: let me get into this first and then we'll cover
Speaker 1: that at the end. You are you are just for
Speaker 1: the end of everyone tonight, all right. According to this,
Speaker 1: Cubrick was the one who did all of the filming
Speaker 1: of the Astronauts on the Moon. He directed it, and
Speaker 1: he then had remorse over it, and so he's explaining
Speaker 1: that through things in the movie The Shining. Officially, according
Speaker 1: to history, the United States landed on the Moon and
Speaker 1: a manned mission in nineteen sixty nine, that's when we
Speaker 1: talked about buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong certainly lost that name.
Speaker 1: You would think I'm the one who's been working crazy hours.
Speaker 1: But in nineteen sixty eight, which was the year before
Speaker 1: that happened, Cubrick released two thousand one of Space Odyssey,
Speaker 1: and that had some really elaborate space scenes in it,
Speaker 1: on the Moon and guys floating around in space, and
Speaker 1: that was all done with a technique that is called
Speaker 1: front projection. The simple version of what front projection is
Speaker 1: is you have your actors. They're standing in front of
Speaker 1: a camera. You have some kind of plane behind them
Speaker 1: so that the ground doesn't just continue to go flat,
Speaker 1: something rises up and they're physically on. Right behind that
Speaker 1: is a reflective surface, which I'm just gonna call a
Speaker 1: mirror because it basically is a mirror. But that mirror
Speaker 1: is big and turned at an angle, and from the
Speaker 1: side another camera is projecting something on it. It's so
Speaker 1: that they look like they're in front of what's being projected,
Speaker 1: whether it's still or motion film. Right, So it's like
Speaker 1: pre good green screen. Absolutely, there was technology at the
Speaker 1: time where you could fake the backgrounds, but it was
Speaker 1: really bad. My favorite I always think of that old
Speaker 1: these movies Sinbad in the seven scenes where the guy is,
Speaker 1: you know, the genie is is going around and you
Speaker 1: can tell that they're they're showing it on a movie
Speaker 1: screen from the other side. So he didn't want that
Speaker 1: because he looked like crap. So he used this technique
Speaker 1: and therefore what and therefore it was very realistic. And
Speaker 1: there's a there's a very easy scene in two thousand
Speaker 1: one that I think shows this, where I think it's
Speaker 1: three people are standing on lunar surface and they're on
Speaker 1: a bit of a ridge, and I even noticed that
Speaker 1: part of the bottom of the scene was taken up
Speaker 1: by lunar rock and it seemed odd to me. But
Speaker 1: that's a very easy example of how it worked. So
Speaker 1: what they are then saying is that this is how
Speaker 1: he made the footage that we all saw or that
Speaker 1: everyone saw in the and in fairness, when you watched
Speaker 1: two thousand one Space Odessey or you look at the
Speaker 1: pictures of them on on the quote unquote moon, it
Speaker 1: looks really good for that time. It actually looks pretty
Speaker 1: dang good for this time with our CJ C G
Speaker 1: I technology. Yeah, you know, I mean except for the
Speaker 1: footage of like you know, of spaceships and that. And
Speaker 1: I'm right, I'm admitting the Discovery. Discovery was a huge
Speaker 1: model if they filmed on sound stage that. But you
Speaker 1: see this, you see, like early on you see a
Speaker 1: satellite going around the Earth and it looks like they
Speaker 1: drew it on cardboard. Yeah. But that's the only thing
Speaker 1: about the movie that doesn't look great today support of
Speaker 1: this theory. Right, you look at the images of these
Speaker 1: actors on a sound stage with this front projection on
Speaker 1: the quote unquote moon, it looks real good. And if
Speaker 1: you think about front projection. And then I went back
Speaker 1: and watched some of the footage of the landing the
Speaker 1: camera the lunar surface takes up about half of the
Speaker 1: left frame and then slope so that it's taking up
Speaker 1: about a quarter of the right hand side of the frame.
Speaker 1: So that is, of course for this more ammunition to
Speaker 1: prove that it was fake. And it's grainy, you know,
Speaker 1: it's not you know, I think there are some points
Speaker 1: to be made about this, whether or not I totally
Speaker 1: believe it. Yeah, and we're going to move away from
Speaker 1: front screen or front projection. He wanted to call it
Speaker 1: front screen for some reason, but it's not. We're now
Speaker 1: going to move to the Overlook Hotel in the Shining
Speaker 1: and we're going to go to the second floor. You,
Speaker 1: if you've seen the movie, you know this because it's
Speaker 1: the red yellow or red and orange brown hexagonal carpet. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and this is this is towards why right, this is
Speaker 1: evidence of him telling the story. Yes, it's saying that
Speaker 1: he used that carpet as a way to make a
Speaker 1: very obvious clue that he had faked the Moonland. Yes,
Speaker 1: that we're no longer on the This is how he
Speaker 1: faked the moon Land. Correct, not how, but this is
Speaker 1: his way of tells and and exactly how does that revealed?
Speaker 1: If you if you look at launch pads at Cape Carnaveral,
Speaker 1: Cape carnaval suddenly can't say that word either, Cornaveral, putting
Speaker 1: the R in a weird place. Steve, It's it's fine.
Speaker 1: It's like when I said cavalry instead of cavalry. Both
Speaker 1: of those are wrong. Wrong. Well, yeah, there's there's the
Speaker 1: cape the Cape Carnaveral pattern. But if they're saying that
Speaker 1: because those those launch pads are in heck shapes, but
Speaker 1: they're not perfect hexes because it'll land around them. You
Speaker 1: can see, and I've seen images superimposed when the cameras
Speaker 1: at just the right angle, so the perspective is stretching
Speaker 1: things out. It's almost a perfect match to a couple
Speaker 1: of those launch pads. So he uh Kubrick then had
Speaker 1: that carpet made. I think it would have gone on
Speaker 1: bottle roll carpet, and he chose the carpet. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but this is the same scene where something else a
Speaker 1: little suspicious happens, right, like the this is the scene
Speaker 1: where Danny happens to be wearing that sweater. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: So that's the other clue in here, is that Danny
Speaker 1: is wearing the Apollo eleven sweater. So I think it's
Speaker 1: part of it is that these things coincide that makes
Speaker 1: people suspicious, right, It's not just because you can kind
Speaker 1: of make the hexagonal thing fit. It's also because Danny
Speaker 1: happens to be wearing Apollo eleven sweater. That is another
Speaker 1: key piece. Am I jumping? No? No, No, it's it's
Speaker 1: absolutely an important important thing there. I think this is
Speaker 1: what you guys were Joe was kind of getting into
Speaker 1: a little bit, which is why would this footage, the
Speaker 1: lunar landing footage around. Yeah, a little bit in this theory,
Speaker 1: But why did the footage get faked? There was a
Speaker 1: space race. We had to get to the moon, and
Speaker 1: of course the Russians were wanting to get to the moon.
Speaker 1: So according to this we couldn't get there. We couldn't
Speaker 1: get there first, so we faked it. That's why it happened,
Speaker 1: so that we could have supremacy in that that manner,
Speaker 1: even if it wasn't real, they would think it was real,
Speaker 1: so we would win, and history remember us as being
Speaker 1: there first, okay, and then uh so sore they saying
Speaker 1: that eventually one of the Apollo eventually we got we
Speaker 1: got men on the moon. Which Apollo mission was it?
Speaker 1: They don't say, conveniently, Yeah, yeah. The in and in
Speaker 1: the readings for this particular theory, you'll also come across
Speaker 1: some stuff that talks about a strange light in the
Speaker 1: night sky that shouldn't be there according to the stars,
Speaker 1: and there's a million reasons why that is. But the
Speaker 1: theory says that there was a random light on in
Speaker 1: the studio that that mirror picked up. Oh, it's interesting.
Speaker 1: That's not what I what what I had read about it.
Speaker 1: It was that it was the light of the projector.
Speaker 1: That's where the projector was like pinhole hitting. That's what
Speaker 1: I read the talking about some some light was left on,
Speaker 1: was what I got. I mean, either way, it's it's yeah,
Speaker 1: yeah again. Um so now there's there's other ways that
Speaker 1: According to this, Kubrick tells us that it is the
Speaker 1: lunar landing and he's sorry. That is. When Dick Halleran
Speaker 1: takes Wendy and Danny into the pantry, there's Tang cans
Speaker 1: on the wall, which, of course the astronauts drank Tang,
Speaker 1: so did everybody else. I know, I had Tang in
Speaker 1: my earthquake kit when I was a kid, and I
Speaker 1: was in the nineties. Like, come on, guys. The other clue,
Speaker 1: another clue we have is that room, the room where
Speaker 1: the spirits are, where the scary naked old lady is
Speaker 1: at is room to the moon even figures two seven
Speaker 1: thousand miles away from the Earth. The other one that
Speaker 1: they had in that one, right was the key. Are
Speaker 1: you're gonna talk about that? No? I hadn't the cow
Speaker 1: at it because I really was so dumb to me,
Speaker 1: it's super dumb. Yeah, but I like to talk about that.
Speaker 1: The key has a little tag on it right to
Speaker 1: label what room it is for, and it says room
Speaker 1: no like number and then yeah but end. Oh and
Speaker 1: it's a capital end and a tiny little oh. So
Speaker 1: people say, well, you can only have it say room,
Speaker 1: or if you add the end it can be moon.
Speaker 1: You switch it around. So obviously Cubrick was trying to
Speaker 1: say that it was the Moon Room and everything was
Speaker 1: fake in there, and that that's he was. He faked it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's exactly it. So smart. Okay, so there's the last thing.
Speaker 1: Actually I'm jumping ahead. Um, yeah, you're forgetting about the twins.
Speaker 1: I am grady girls girls. Okay. You hear him referred
Speaker 1: to as the twins because the girls who played the
Speaker 1: characters of the Girls in the Blue Dress are twins.
Speaker 1: Super creepy, super creepy. Yeah yeah, well you know, I've
Speaker 1: seen him as adults and they still look really didn't
Speaker 1: look that alike. Yeah, I got that too. But people
Speaker 1: point out the fact that Allman, the manager of the
Speaker 1: Overlook Hotel, says that they were the greedy girls about
Speaker 1: eight and ten years old. And in the book they're
Speaker 1: not twins. So people say, well, obviously this is a
Speaker 1: reference to the Gemini space program as you were heading too,
Speaker 1: because he's using twins and when they didn't need to
Speaker 1: be twins. And you know, we've talked, but Gemini was
Speaker 1: the space program that was in effect before we started
Speaker 1: sending men to the Moon. That's when we're doing all
Speaker 1: of research because the orbital missions, it was two astronauts
Speaker 1: and a capsule. In a capsule, actually they did some
Speaker 1: interesting stuff and it was all leading your research and
Speaker 1: techniques leading up to the success of apology astronauts get
Speaker 1: into a popcad basically. But actually that the Gemini missions.
Speaker 1: We did our first spacewalk from a Gemini capsule, and
Speaker 1: then there was one cool mission where they launched they
Speaker 1: launched one capsule, and then a couple of days later
Speaker 1: they launched the second one and they actually rendevouted orbit
Speaker 1: and connected up and stuff and so all kinds of
Speaker 1: really kind of cool stuff and it was important to
Speaker 1: the Apollo mission. Lad But but according to this theory,
Speaker 1: the girls are the direct layer to Gemini. They were
Speaker 1: the predecess I mean, I get it right. They were
Speaker 1: the predecessor to Danny. They were the last kid that
Speaker 1: lived there, but they were the Gemini. And well, no,
Speaker 1: because you can't do that, because I say, well, then
Speaker 1: the Torrents family is three, which would then be a
Speaker 1: reference to Apollo, but that that takes away the caretaker
Speaker 1: grading and his wife who were already there, so that
Speaker 1: doesn't actually work. But but you could spend the theory
Speaker 1: that way. But Danny was what's tony and also could
Speaker 1: shine to what was his name? Yeah, so he was three?
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe, Well, let's I'm sorry. Here's the last thing
Speaker 1: that I found everywhere about this, which is in the
Speaker 1: Colorado room. We see Jack on his typewriter. Wendy comes
Speaker 1: in and interrupts him, and he pitches a fit and
Speaker 1: choose her out about his responsibilities and his work. The
Speaker 1: all the proponents of this say, well, that's a word
Speaker 1: for word representation of a conversation that Stanley had with
Speaker 1: his wife about his regrets and the money for doing
Speaker 1: the moon landing footage. The problem is that is outright wrong.
Speaker 1: Be because thank you New York Times. There their stuff
Speaker 1: is archived and on the net, and there is an
Speaker 1: interview with Jack Nicholson talking about the fact that he
Speaker 1: and Cubrick had initially looked at the scene, he had
Speaker 1: talked to him about the fact how it reminded him
Speaker 1: of what had happened with him and his then ex
Speaker 1: ex wife just before and then during their divorce. Nicholson
Speaker 1: h Nicholson's Okay, Nicholson's divorce. Sorry, they both were married
Speaker 1: several times, I think which one we were at that point.
Speaker 1: But but then so they wrote the scene together, which
Speaker 1: means that it couldn't be a direct representation of a
Speaker 1: conversation that Stanley had with his wife. So that I mean,
Speaker 1: we've shot this one full of holes planet in their apartment. Anyway,
Speaker 1: you know that it would have been that Cubrick wrote it.
Speaker 1: But that's one of the one other fork to stick
Speaker 1: in this thing is that the represent to thirty seven,
Speaker 1: representing the two thirty seven thousand mile distance between the
Speaker 1: Earth and the Moon, is the room number was not
Speaker 1: actually two thirty seven to begin with. It was to seventeen,
Speaker 1: and they're thinking that they changed to to thirty seven.
Speaker 1: The reason they did that is when they film exteriors
Speaker 1: a timberline lodge up on Mount Hood, the lodge asked
Speaker 1: them to use a different room number and not room
Speaker 1: two seventeen because they were afraid that people would be
Speaker 1: afraid to stay in room two seventeen. But Joe, they
Speaker 1: don't actually have a two seventeen. No, they do. Sorry,
Speaker 1: I've heard it said about this. They're like, but if
Speaker 1: you call Timberline Lodge, they don't they don't have a
Speaker 1: room number two seventeen. I've been there, as have you.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you know they have a room to seventeen
Speaker 1: and at it's their most popular room. They don't have
Speaker 1: a room to thirty seven. Yeah, so what you're saying
Speaker 1: is right. But I just wanted to bring up that
Speaker 1: that's a thing that people say, people do push that.
Speaker 1: Shall we move on to the next one? Yeah? Wow,
Speaker 1: we beat that one? Or horse? Um, okay, let's talk
Speaker 1: more about horses, well a little bit. Not really, We're
Speaker 1: going to go to our next one, which is that
Speaker 1: this was all about the massacre of the American Indians.
Speaker 1: Here's how it goes. When the Torrances first get to
Speaker 1: the hotel and Stewart Alman is showing them around. He's
Speaker 1: the manager. He takes tells them that the hotel is
Speaker 1: built on an Indian burial ground and that during construction
Speaker 1: they had to fight off Indians, so there's probably some
Speaker 1: buried there. And then as you see the scenes as
Speaker 1: they're panning around the hotel, and if you watch, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of Native American artwork and there are photos
Speaker 1: that there's at least one very prominent one that is
Speaker 1: a man. It's just a headshot of a man in
Speaker 1: a headdress. Then we talked about, yeah, the artwork which
Speaker 1: is going to be the tapestry in the Colorado room,
Speaker 1: which is a huge tapestry, giant thing. So again there's
Speaker 1: this this this movie has a lot of giant things
Speaker 1: and a lot of a lot of huge rooms. In
Speaker 1: this huge rooms, the huge rugs. All the rugs are themed.
Speaker 1: They're kind of a Native American themes. Some of the
Speaker 1: floors have inlays that are the Native American themes. So
Speaker 1: it's everywhere. But they are saying that that's because he's
Speaker 1: trying to tell us that this is about the American Indians.
Speaker 1: Were any pictures of dead Indians? No, but there were
Speaker 1: Besides that, there is We're going to talk about the
Speaker 1: pantry a number of times, and we're gonna go back
Speaker 1: to the pantry right now because when Dick Hallerin shows
Speaker 1: Wendy and Danny the pantry. There are cans again, big
Speaker 1: cans there, big Calumet baking soda cans. It's not surprisingly're
Speaker 1: there because it's part of the that was a major
Speaker 1: brand at the time, and it's stockpiling a giant hotel
Speaker 1: that feeds gads of people. But that can part of
Speaker 1: it is it's a bright red can and it's got
Speaker 1: a reverse image of a face with a headdress on,
Speaker 1: so it's it's a Calcum American Indian. Yeah. I think
Speaker 1: that stuff is still sold, right, it is. I it
Speaker 1: was like, I don't know, we have like four cans, okay,
Speaker 1: but you know, so there's that time when the cans
Speaker 1: show up and they're all nice and neat and orderly
Speaker 1: and all facing forward, and then we're going to flip
Speaker 1: ahead to win. Wendy locks Jack in the pantry after
Speaker 1: she clubs him in the head with a baseball back spoilers.
Speaker 1: I told you that's a good thing. You watched this. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: at that time, when Jack is leaning against the door
Speaker 1: talking to Wendy trying to open it, you can see
Speaker 1: all of these cans on the edge of the shelf
Speaker 1: except they're now no longer square, they're slightly turned. You
Speaker 1: can't see everything. So what this says is that that
Speaker 1: is representative of the way we can. The American government
Speaker 1: came to the American Indians and said, we're gonna make
Speaker 1: all these treaties and we're gonna be very honest upfront
Speaker 1: with you, which is why all the cans are facing
Speaker 1: forward at first, and then we changed our mind The
Speaker 1: American government changes their minds. They do all these things,
Speaker 1: and they basically break all their promises, which is why
Speaker 1: the cans are turned to represent that breaking of the promise. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know that I really go into that. That
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense, how the twist of a prop. But
Speaker 1: I have seen photos of of Stanley there very specifically
Speaker 1: adjusting the cans. Could have been for lighting reasons or
Speaker 1: too much detail or not enough. I don't know, you.
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say that I I think that uh, Stanley,
Speaker 1: if nothing else, was really good at setting the mood.
Speaker 1: And I know that there's been a lot of talk
Speaker 1: about his really great ability in the shining to create
Speaker 1: this sense of disjointed reality. And I I I personally
Speaker 1: just coming from a theater background and having experience in
Speaker 1: set dressing and things like that, understand that you're supposed
Speaker 1: to feel uncomfortable in a very regimented way in the beginning,
Speaker 1: and then things start to fall apart and they get
Speaker 1: crazier and crazier, and that that's a great way to
Speaker 1: make people unconsciously realize it. The fact that people have
Speaker 1: taken it and analyzed it and all that, that's it's
Speaker 1: a maybe reading a little too deep in something that
Speaker 1: he was just trying to make people feel subconsciously. That
Speaker 1: would be. That's my general reading of that whole thing.
Speaker 1: You know that he's it is it's supposed to feel
Speaker 1: like everything's falling apart, so of worse he's going to
Speaker 1: adjust it and it's not. I don't know. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think that's a linear I guess, yeah, yeah. I think
Speaker 1: if Cuber could really wanted to make a movie about
Speaker 1: the massacre of the Indians and the white Man's broken promises,
Speaker 1: he probably would have just made a western. He would
Speaker 1: have made an actual movie about it. Again, it's kind
Speaker 1: of sad that he died as young as he did
Speaker 1: and he didn't have a chance to make a Western.
Speaker 1: It's true he didn't, did He never made a Western. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: let's let's keep going with the more of the metaphors
Speaker 1: that we're going to find in this there's more Indian stuff, Oh,
Speaker 1: there's there's more so than the next one that we've
Speaker 1: got is the fact that in the very in sequence,
Speaker 1: the camera zooms in to the framed photos on the wall,
Speaker 1: and then the very center one shows Jack Nicholson. They're
Speaker 1: underneath it. It says Overlook Hotel, July fourth of July.
Speaker 1: Fourth of July to most Americans is the celebration of independence.
Speaker 1: But according to this metaphor, it's emphasizing the fact that
Speaker 1: that's not necessarily the case for the American Indians because
Speaker 1: we screwed them a whole bunch and they don't have
Speaker 1: what they used to have. You know, this isn't again,
Speaker 1: incredibly weak, because I mean seeing that, seeing that, like
Speaker 1: the date of July four doesn't make me think of
Speaker 1: the the Indians, because the Indians this is not really
Speaker 1: their celebration of the independent Salmon. Would you ever would
Speaker 1: looking at July fourth ever make you think Indians? No?
Speaker 1: But you know again, I'm not part of that culture,
Speaker 1: so I of course it wouldn't. You know, I'm a
Speaker 1: normal white guy in middle class America. So that's I'm
Speaker 1: gonna know it as that thing that it is meant
Speaker 1: to represent to our class. That's that's where this metaphor
Speaker 1: is going. I I I'm on board with you. I
Speaker 1: think that it is a tell of a leap. It's
Speaker 1: a big old stretch. It's a big stretch, like a Mr.
Speaker 1: Incredible stretch. And by the way, just as an aside,
Speaker 1: that particular shot is really cool. It's a really cool shots.
Speaker 1: So when it zooms in and slowly moves forward and
Speaker 1: closes in on these nine pictures on the wall, and
Speaker 1: then it closes in on the middle picture, and then
Speaker 1: it closes in further and further and further to Jack
Speaker 1: Nicholson standing there part. It's very it's very indicative with
Speaker 1: his style where it's just so slow, but it's very
Speaker 1: directed in some instance isn't and others you don't really
Speaker 1: know what he was going after and he was doing
Speaker 1: it on purpose. Uh. We have a couple of bits
Speaker 1: more here. So we have the death of Dick Hallerin.
Speaker 1: So we know that Dick gets to the Overlook Hotel,
Speaker 1: he comes in, Jack pops out from around the side
Speaker 1: of a column, and hits him in the heart with
Speaker 1: an axe, drops him to the floor and he dies.
Speaker 1: Should have brought it gun with him? Yeah, probably he
Speaker 1: knew it was going on. Yeah, well, of course when
Speaker 1: we've seen him next, he is laid splayed out and
Speaker 1: bleeding an According to a lot of the reading on this,
Speaker 1: he is laying on a rug that has an American
Speaker 1: Indian design. Well, I'm gonna point out he's not laying
Speaker 1: on a rug. He's actually laying on the floor. It's
Speaker 1: the little lium tile floor I guess would be linoleum. Yeah,
Speaker 1: when he's not tile, it's in late so it's got
Speaker 1: to be little Regardless, he's laying on a shiny floor
Speaker 1: bleeding on it. I will admit it's got some inlays
Speaker 1: that could be rather you know, interpreted, but mostly they're
Speaker 1: just kind of half Chevron's in in the corners. So
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's okay. It's fair to say
Speaker 1: that almost every other scene of the Shining either takes
Speaker 1: place in a kitchen which is clearly tiled, slash linoleum,
Speaker 1: or very carpeted. So okay, fine, Yeah, there's something weird
Speaker 1: happening there. Is it explainable by not wanting to stay
Speaker 1: in a set carpet with big blood. Sure, why not?
Speaker 1: I mean if I feel like that's stretching even less
Speaker 1: and this explanation, Oh well, I've got one more stretch
Speaker 1: for you, and that's the elevator. We're gonna go back
Speaker 1: to the beginning of this one when I talked about
Speaker 1: Allman saying it was a burial ground. Okay, Well, if
Speaker 1: you think about the way an elevator is constructed, the
Speaker 1: first floor is not where it ends. It's shaft and
Speaker 1: its machinery or farther down and below some of it
Speaker 1: at least hotel how the basement, that's what they had
Speaker 1: their boilers. But they're saying there's a shaft going down
Speaker 1: and that's burrowing into that Indian burial ground, which is
Speaker 1: why do we have the blood scene where all the
Speaker 1: blood comes pouring out of the elevator. It's like a
Speaker 1: splash mountain. Add I splash mountain was covered in blood
Speaker 1: and gore and it's just it's it flows everywhere and
Speaker 1: it's insane. And they're saying that's the release of the
Speaker 1: spirits of all of these Indians because this thing is
Speaker 1: plunging into their heart. Yeah, it's releasing them, none of it.
Speaker 1: None of it. That's melodramatic. I'd the fact that the
Speaker 1: hotel was built on an Indian burial ground. I mean,
Speaker 1: Stephen King actually used that particular plot device and numerous
Speaker 1: books of his. Uh, you know, there was like in
Speaker 1: pet cemetery. Wasn't there like the mcmac Indian burial ground
Speaker 1: where all the evil mojo came from that reanimated the pets.
Speaker 1: You know, it's so long since I've seen that movie,
Speaker 1: I don't even remember. But also, this is America. What
Speaker 1: isn't built on an Indian burial ground? Very true? There's
Speaker 1: probably there's probably white people too, buried under my house.
Speaker 1: I mean, well, no, it's more likely Indians. But I
Speaker 1: mean there's probably a lot of dead white people everywhere.
Speaker 1: There's people everywhere, regardless of nationality, and they're all over
Speaker 1: the place. Yeah, the I guess this is what The
Speaker 1: third one, well, wow, we're gonna to start talking fast. Yeah,
Speaker 1: as Job says, talking really fast, let's talk real. This one.
Speaker 1: This one says is that it's about the Holocaust. That's
Speaker 1: not the one I found rather tendentious. Sorry, we're hitting
Speaker 1: that point in the theories where I'm just gonna start
Speaker 1: saying no. Al right, Well, before you start shouting no,
Speaker 1: let me explain that saying not shouting. Oh, okay, well
Speaker 1: before you start saying no, devonka, let me let me
Speaker 1: go through it. The first part of this is that
Speaker 1: it's all based on Nazi symbolism. The Nazis, of course
Speaker 1: love the Eagle had that on a bunch of their stuff,
Speaker 1: on their paraphernalia. Our first item that is a Holocaust
Speaker 1: representation is Jack's Adler typewriter, and that thing seth Holocaust.
Speaker 1: More of the typewriter, well, it's German brand and it's
Speaker 1: got a giant eagle spread across the front um. It
Speaker 1: doesn't actually explain why the typewriter changes color midway through
Speaker 1: the film, but believe that it goes from kind of
Speaker 1: a white cream color to a light blue. But I
Speaker 1: almost wonder if that's a lighting issue. But it changes color,
Speaker 1: but it's away they had two types. No, it just
Speaker 1: seems really I don't know. Maybe um. But there's also
Speaker 1: the fact that the name Adler, translated from German to
Speaker 1: English is eagle. It is I even tested that app
Speaker 1: because I wasn't. I did too, I really did it.
Speaker 1: Three times to make sure Google wasn't messing with me. Um,
Speaker 1: and uh, let's see what else. Oh, there's more symbolism.
Speaker 1: There is one of the early scenes where Jack is
Speaker 1: in bed and he wakes up. He's being filmed in
Speaker 1: the mirror. Wendy brings him breakfast. He wakes up at
Speaker 1: like eleven o'clock and I love that scene. But for
Speaker 1: something else, Yeah, Well, if you look, he's wearing a
Speaker 1: shirt that says Stovington and it's got the eagle on it.
Speaker 1: They're saying the eagle is another representation a Nazi symbolism.
Speaker 1: So pretty much they're saying that it's Nazis because eagles.
Speaker 1: That's part of it. You want to point out. It's
Speaker 1: one of the few times I saw Cuber really hold
Speaker 1: to something in the script, which is are in the book.
Speaker 1: The name of that school is the school that Jack
Speaker 1: used to work at, because if you remember the beginning,
Speaker 1: City used to be a school teacher, and that's the
Speaker 1: name of the school they worked at. But back to
Speaker 1: the Holocaust. Okay, this this one, what is the phrase
Speaker 1: you used earlier? A bit of a stretch. This one's
Speaker 1: a bit of a stretch. It's saying that the music
Speaker 1: that was used in the film. All of those composers
Speaker 1: were post World War two composers, and that they were
Speaker 1: all influenced by the war. Ye that's yeah, yeah, there's
Speaker 1: just no they're just they're just dating nothing. There. The
Speaker 1: last thing that they do is math if you take
Speaker 1: because even even the people who are proponents of this
Speaker 1: theory say, I know it's a bit of a stretch,
Speaker 1: but if you multiply two times three times seven, you
Speaker 1: get which is repre editive of to win. The Germans
Speaker 1: really took their their plans against the Jews and really
Speaker 1: ramped it up and started all of the atrocity. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but but the better in order to accomplish this, what
Speaker 1: Cooper had to do was he had to to bribe
Speaker 1: the people a timberline lodge or it was a convenience
Speaker 1: to ask for. It was a convenience. But but that's
Speaker 1: not the only place they're saying it's at. There are
Speaker 1: forty two vehicles in the parking lot. When we did
Speaker 1: see the parking lot, did that I did not count
Speaker 1: them because it was so hard. In that movie they
Speaker 1: do actually count it. The gh in the doc room.
Speaker 1: But also, you guys, seriously, like seriously Danny's wearing a
Speaker 1: short shirt that has the number forty two on it.
Speaker 1: There is the number forty two in the license plate
Speaker 1: of Dick Halloran's rental car. And do you remember when
Speaker 1: Wendy and Danny you're watching TV and before Danny goes
Speaker 1: upstairs to get something out of their room, but they're
Speaker 1: watching a show and it turns out it's the summer
Speaker 1: of forty two. Also a funny side note, there's no
Speaker 1: plug on that television. There's no cord. I'm sorry, I
Speaker 1: just like forty two. You know what else is forty
Speaker 1: two is the answer to life in The Hitchhiker's Guide
Speaker 1: to the Galaxy. If we're going there, we're going there,
Speaker 1: right right, I mean the Hitchhiker's Guide came out. When
Speaker 1: did that come out? You know, I don't remember. That
Speaker 1: would have been a seventies sometime. I would have been
Speaker 1: before the movie, right, Oh yeah, yeah, Well, I don't know,
Speaker 1: was it. And they filmed this movie in what nine?
Speaker 1: I believe it was seventy late seventy eight, finished up
Speaker 1: in late seventy nine, and came out in eighty I believe,
Speaker 1: is how that came Yeah, I mean, I don't know
Speaker 1: how old Kubrick was. Maybe he was forty two, you,
Speaker 1: I mean, it could have been his forty second birthday
Speaker 1: present to him. So yeah, it could have been. Let's see, okay.
Speaker 1: According to Wikipedia, uh, the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Speaker 1: came out in nineteen seventy nine, so then I would
Speaker 1: have come out at the same time as filming. I'm
Speaker 1: just staying, if we're going there, we're going there. Meaning
Speaker 1: of life somewhere else. I just actually, one thing about
Speaker 1: the Holocaust that this that this movie is a little
Speaker 1: reminiscent of, is that at the time, you know, leading
Speaker 1: at the time leading up to and in the early
Speaker 1: days of World War Two, Europe's Jews were desperate to
Speaker 1: get out, and of course they found the exits closed
Speaker 1: to them. Yeah, I mean, and seriously, you know, if
Speaker 1: you're the Nazis and you hate the Jews and the
Speaker 1: Jews are perfectly happy to leave, you know, why not
Speaker 1: just let let him leave? Instead they closed off the exit, yeah,
Speaker 1: which is what Jack Nicholson did in the movie. But
Speaker 1: he sabotage the radio and he sabotaged the snow cat
Speaker 1: in the same way though that we said, if Kubrick
Speaker 1: wanted to make a movie about the Holocaust, would have
Speaker 1: made Schindler's List. He wanted to he wanted to make
Speaker 1: a movie about the Hold, and he did. According to this,
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. I mean, yeah, I was
Speaker 1: gonna make one, and then Schindler's List came out, and
Speaker 1: he was actually relieved because he could never get it
Speaker 1: was gonna be called the Aryan Papers, but he could.
Speaker 1: He never could quite get it together to have to
Speaker 1: make that movie, and then was relieved when he didn't
Speaker 1: have to do it. Right, So he would have done that.
Speaker 1: He was trying to do that for years. So why
Speaker 1: is it shoehorned in here? I don't know, I mean,
Speaker 1: but I guess my my feeling is right, is that Okay,
Speaker 1: Schindler's List came out like find so you wait for
Speaker 1: your next movie, right, Because if he wanted to make
Speaker 1: a Western, he would have made a Western. If he
Speaker 1: wanted to make something about the you know, the slaughter
Speaker 1: of the American Indians, he would have made that western.
Speaker 1: If he wanted to make a movie about the Holocast,
Speaker 1: he would have done it, regardless of what was out
Speaker 1: at the time. He According to the next one, he
Speaker 1: also made this movie about the minotaur. Yeah, I want
Speaker 1: to hate more than any of them. I'm going to
Speaker 1: make this really brief because it is really simple, and
Speaker 1: then I'm gonna blow it out of the water a
Speaker 1: little bit. So if you don't know what the minotaur is,
Speaker 1: he is from Greek mythology, and it's the body of
Speaker 1: a man with the head of a bull and a
Speaker 1: really bad attitude and has a penchant for a living
Speaker 1: in mazes. The Shining is about the minotaur because we
Speaker 1: have the Hedge maze, even though in the book it's
Speaker 1: actually hedge animals that are down by the playground. That's
Speaker 1: that's a change. Yeah, the topiary is it topiary to Pietrie,
Speaker 1: I never know, okay um. But the fact that, like
Speaker 1: you were talking about earlier, Devin, how things are so
Speaker 1: disjointed when you move around in that hotel in the movie,
Speaker 1: that's because it's supposed to be maze like. So that's
Speaker 1: another representation of the maze we have. Jack Nicholson, there
Speaker 1: are quite a few times where he's looking at the camera.
Speaker 1: He's kind of got his head tipped forward. He's got
Speaker 1: that kind of blank look or almost semi angry look.
Speaker 1: But and his widows peak, almost like the same stance
Speaker 1: or the head angle that you see on a bowl
Speaker 1: that is about to charge. So again, that's a reference
Speaker 1: to it. The last one that I really love, which
Speaker 1: is the representation of it, is in the beginning of
Speaker 1: the movie when they go to the hotel, Danny is
Speaker 1: in the game room and then he meets the Grady girls,
Speaker 1: the Grady Twins. When the girls are there, on the
Speaker 1: left hand side on the wall, there is a poster
Speaker 1: that says Monarch, and then it's got this strange looking
Speaker 1: blacked out figure with light coming from behind it that
Speaker 1: they say is supposed to be a representation of the minotaur,
Speaker 1: but it's actually got curved legs more like a oat,
Speaker 1: which would make me think it should be a satyr.
Speaker 1: You know what, actually though, because this is you're talking about,
Speaker 1: they talked about this in that movie room to that's
Speaker 1: that's one of the places. Yeah, as they were describing it,
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't see it's a skier. It's
Speaker 1: a skier. It's a skier. And then at one moment
Speaker 1: it was like, oh my god, it's I see it
Speaker 1: with the hook like pointed in the opposite direction, the
Speaker 1: way that a Hamal's knees would be I I see it.
Speaker 1: It was like that dress, but like is it black
Speaker 1: or blue or a goal? It was it was like
Speaker 1: the moment that I saw it, I can't like, I
Speaker 1: can't un see it. That's all I see now is
Speaker 1: a menator, So I guess well, And and they also
Speaker 1: they take it farther by saying on the opposite wall
Speaker 1: there is a it's a piece of art that is
Speaker 1: a guy on a bucking bronco. So that's the combination
Speaker 1: of man and beasts. So it's another another metaphor for it.
Speaker 1: I guess for me, uh see, as I might these
Speaker 1: kind of imagery things. I still don't understand why he
Speaker 1: would be making a movie about him like some weird subtext.
Speaker 1: It's dumb. I'm sorry, but here's the problem. Here's the
Speaker 1: problem with this. That's actually a minotaur because we we
Speaker 1: all know it's a skier. But even if it is
Speaker 1: a mentor, why but if you pause the movie and
Speaker 1: you start reading the post or it doesn't say Monarch.
Speaker 1: It says ski Monarch as in the Monarch recreational Ski area,
Speaker 1: because that is a real place and it's been existing
Speaker 1: since like the thirties or something. It's a local area prop.
Speaker 1: Although what they talk about in that movie in the
Speaker 1: room two three seven whatever, I think it is a
Speaker 1: little bit fair, just given that there is a very
Speaker 1: explicit discussion between the characters about the fact that the
Speaker 1: hotel resort should be a ski resort. Yeah, that it
Speaker 1: should be in there, like, well, no, it's just no, no,
Speaker 1: it's too hard to keep the roads open. Right, But
Speaker 1: so I get that, right, that they're reasoning behind, well,
Speaker 1: it's not a ski resort, but then they have this
Speaker 1: advertisement for skiing. Okay, fine, but also why like why
Speaker 1: also that the mintor lived in a maze? Nicholson didn't
Speaker 1: live in a maze. He died in the maze. Well,
Speaker 1: but he was living in the maze. He he lived
Speaker 1: in a maze until somebody broke the maze, right, somebody
Speaker 1: broke the maze. I mean Danny essentially Hallerin and Danny
Speaker 1: would have broken the maze by bringing someone up there
Speaker 1: in the winter. That's a that's a great point. I
Speaker 1: hadn't I had made that connection. But it's still dumb. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's let's keep sticking with that particular poster as we
Speaker 1: go to the next in line, which is that this
Speaker 1: whole movie was about the CIA's mind control program. Of course,
Speaker 1: as is everything, Yes, well evident A monarch is a
Speaker 1: reference to the program mk Ultra, which was a program
Speaker 1: for like twenty or thirty years where the c i
Speaker 1: A gave people loads of drugs sometimes they knew it,
Speaker 1: sometimes they didn't to try and figure out a really
Speaker 1: good way to get people to confess, basically a truth drug. Also,
Speaker 1: the super villain in the Venture Brothers is it the yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought was the successor to mk Ultra, though right
Speaker 1: that I'm not positive of. I mean, I just did this.
Speaker 1: I looked at this and I went through some of it,
Speaker 1: and it's just it's such a stretch. I mean, they're
Speaker 1: saying that it's basically you're on LSD and that's why
Speaker 1: this place is so crazy, and it's a representation of
Speaker 1: you being broken down by the man who's questioning you.
Speaker 1: So that's why Jack is breaking down under the weight
Speaker 1: of the hotel. Is Jack the one that's breaking down,
Speaker 1: not Wendy. Jack is the one who clearly breaks down.
Speaker 1: He goes from a very clear minded person two In
Speaker 1: the end, when he is in the maze, he is
Speaker 1: not speaking English. He is just speaking gibberish. That's that's
Speaker 1: the slide that. Okay, yeah, but yeah, any of mind
Speaker 1: control the themes here, I think you just I Okay,
Speaker 1: we we have our Holy cow, we're on our last one.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, our last official our last official one,
Speaker 1: and then we've got a present for everybody who holds out. Okay.
Speaker 1: The last theory that we have here is that this
Speaker 1: is all about a dream. The whole thing is a dream,
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna I'm gonna kind of summarize these into
Speaker 1: little bits and then we can take him apart further
Speaker 1: if you want. There is the idea that this whole
Speaker 1: thing is a dream had by Jack as he is
Speaker 1: suffering the d t S detox because he's an alcoholic
Speaker 1: who's dried out, and he's also suffering from Rider's block,
Speaker 1: and so this whole thing is this weird, crazy dream
Speaker 1: in his head. Yeah. But I mean, and they said
Speaker 1: in the movie that Shelley, you've all said at the
Speaker 1: beginning of the movie that he've been on the wagon
Speaker 1: for like six months. You don't have the d t
Speaker 1: S at six months out. No, that's true. But but
Speaker 1: he's also I guess the dts were the wrong the
Speaker 1: wrong thing to call it. But he he's wants to drink.
Speaker 1: He's resisting, but the urge is still there, the craving.
Speaker 1: So that's what he's fighting, and luckily there was a
Speaker 1: virtual drink ready for him. There was. And some of
Speaker 1: the stuff that I've seen that says that their support
Speaker 1: of this is, you know the fact that weird things
Speaker 1: only really seemed to happen around Jack, the ghosts only
Speaker 1: appear around Jack, if indeed there were ghosts. I mean,
Speaker 1: everybody saw ghosts, and oh, you're right. In the very
Speaker 1: very end, Wendy saw the butler, or the not the butler,
Speaker 1: um Grady, she saw Grady l w And the skeletons,
Speaker 1: she saw the skeletons of all the corpses in the ballroom,
Speaker 1: and then she's and then of course he saw it all.
Speaker 1: Danny saw all kinds of stuff sneak peak, so everybody's
Speaker 1: everybody saw ghosts and some stuff like that. Remind me
Speaker 1: not to go to this place? What Timberlin, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Well that's a great that's a great way to segue
Speaker 1: into our next bit of is this is dream? The
Speaker 1: part about Danny is that maybe the whole thing is
Speaker 1: actually in Danny's head. So it's Danny having a dream
Speaker 1: and it's from his point of view, and it's all
Speaker 1: in his imagination. It's not really happening the way we
Speaker 1: are shown on screen it happens. It's interesting as as
Speaker 1: we talk about Jacket being Jack Stream being Danny's dream,
Speaker 1: they talk about there's only one actual supernatural thing that
Speaker 1: happens in this movie, right, pantry. It's Jack getting out
Speaker 1: of the pantry because he's locked in there by Wendy.
Speaker 1: Actually he's knocked out out. Yeah, but according and we
Speaker 1: that's what we're led to, right. But I actually do
Speaker 1: like the theory that is brought up in a lot
Speaker 1: of different places that it's actually Danny, Yeah, that Danny
Speaker 1: lets him lose, because we don't see Danny, right, We
Speaker 1: don't know where Danny is at that point, right, he's
Speaker 1: because he's not anywhere. I mean, there's no documentation of
Speaker 1: him being anywhere. And I do like that theory a lot.
Speaker 1: And I also think that it lends credence to it
Speaker 1: being Danny's dream or there's another version of it that
Speaker 1: it's all Danny's fault, Danny with his shining is actually
Speaker 1: causing all of the things that are happening. Brain, right,
Speaker 1: are you even to talk about that that he takes
Speaker 1: over Wendy when she's when she's um fighting jack Off.
Speaker 1: I don't, I haven't. Yeah, I think they're they're there.
Speaker 1: Actually was another supernatural thing that happened that was a
Speaker 1: little bit earlier in the mod me when he's playing
Speaker 1: with a little toy cars and and the ball comes
Speaker 1: rolling up and he happens to be right down the
Speaker 1: corridor from good Old Room to seven. Right, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so there were so there were two things that physically
Speaker 1: couldn't possibly have happened, and then they were caused. But
Speaker 1: where the ghost stick over? Of course maybe Jack Nicholson
Speaker 1: was down the corridor and he rolled the ball at him,
Speaker 1: did throw the ball, and that brings up the tennis ball,
Speaker 1: and that brings up the weird sense of space, right
Speaker 1: that you don't totally know where everything is in relation
Speaker 1: to each other in this hotel that they live in.
Speaker 1: So it's possibly right, he's like throwing the ball and
Speaker 1: if everything lines up the way your brain wants it
Speaker 1: to line up, he's tarning the ball. It hits a
Speaker 1: weird angle and it just rolls down the hall to Danny,
Speaker 1: but you don't know that, like there's no way to
Speaker 1: know where it actually lines up. And actually when that happened,
Speaker 1: when he was playing with the toys, that was right
Speaker 1: about the same time that Jack Nicholson was was passed
Speaker 1: out of sleep over his typewriter in that room. He
Speaker 1: wasn't throwing the ball, and then he he starts having
Speaker 1: a hideous stream and starts screaming to sleep and everything, right,
Speaker 1: and so that's not all about happened at the same time,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of there's a lot of weird stuff
Speaker 1: around that specific supernatural moment, right, because that's also when
Speaker 1: the continuity gets weird of the hotel, yeah, of the
Speaker 1: layout of the hotel, of even just the carpet, the
Speaker 1: physical carpet below Danny that because it flips, Yeah, it rolled,
Speaker 1: the ball rolls up to him in this like kind
Speaker 1: of pathway in the carpet ing that leads into the
Speaker 1: geometric shape that he's been playing in. And he stands
Speaker 1: up and it's flipped. He's standing a degree, he's facing
Speaker 1: the other direction, which is the same thing actually happens
Speaker 1: when Hallerin is showing Wendy and Danny the pantries, and
Speaker 1: they go in the pantry one way and then they
Speaker 1: walk out. It's a completely different areas. So, but those
Speaker 1: things happen all the time, and those are big questions
Speaker 1: I think for me about the movie. Whatever theories I
Speaker 1: believe it's a dream, it's you know, the Holocaust, whatever,
Speaker 1: they're big questions because it seems like given the rest
Speaker 1: of Cubrick's filmology film allocology, I guess that works filmology. Yeah,
Speaker 1: his catalog of films that he was really big on
Speaker 1: details and continuity, and so for him to kind of
Speaker 1: overlook those things seems significant, I think a lot of times.
Speaker 1: But but there's also the fact of the sheer volume
Speaker 1: they shot for a year, There's the sheer number of takes.
Speaker 1: He then edits it all himself. I see details disappearing.
Speaker 1: But you want to talk about the sheer number of takes,
Speaker 1: which particular one do we want to go into the
Speaker 1: fact that Shelley Duval was admitted to the hospital like
Speaker 1: a couple of times during the filming because she was
Speaker 1: in a constant state of um exhaustion and mentally, he
Speaker 1: was under a lot of and that one seventeen takes
Speaker 1: seventeen takes. Yeah, that must have taken a couple of days. Well,
Speaker 1: I have before we get into the final thing that
Speaker 1: we got for all of our listeners, I have one
Speaker 1: final thing that I want to throw out there that
Speaker 1: I am surprised never came up in any of the research,
Speaker 1: and I've never read anywhere else. Do you remember Jack
Speaker 1: is in the Colorado room on his typewriter typing All
Speaker 1: Work and No Play makes Jack adult boy? That Cubrick
Speaker 1: wrote you know that right now? No, he didn't, he did,
Speaker 1: He did not. I thought secretaries hated Cubrick because he
Speaker 1: made them type it up and he wouldn't let them xerox.
Speaker 1: It's so the secretaries actually wrote it, because there's all
Speaker 1: that behind the scenes footage of him typing away on
Speaker 1: that orange typewriter, right, but he's typing on little itty
Speaker 1: bitty sheets. It turns out he's rewriting the script right right. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: um our our our. I got that bit of information
Speaker 1: from an inside source, and it turns out that no,
Speaker 1: cubric didn't write any of that. So that's that's buccus. Okay, sorry,
Speaker 1: but All work and No Play makes Jack dull Boy
Speaker 1: is thirty three characters I counted. When we see Jack
Speaker 1: in the Colorado room and he resets the carriage and
Speaker 1: he starts typing. If you listen, twenty six key strokes
Speaker 1: before he resets the carriage again. Go a little farther.
Speaker 1: Wendy when she first discovers what Jack has been typing,
Speaker 1: and she's spinning through the pages. They show twenty six
Speaker 1: different pages with that text on it. So what does
Speaker 1: that mean? Well, probably nothing, but have the question like
Speaker 1: under the heading, you know this is all a dream.
Speaker 1: I've only ever heard it's Jack or it's Danny. I've
Speaker 1: never heard it's Wendy. Have a nightmare or a breakdown
Speaker 1: or a breakdown. Right. Her character in this movie is
Speaker 1: very um bird like in her mannerisms and her her
Speaker 1: actions and her attitude. She's very timid and scared. But
Speaker 1: I get for me, you know. She even kind of
Speaker 1: says in the very beginning, as Jack is saying, Hey,
Speaker 1: we're going to go do this thing for our family,
Speaker 1: She's like, well, I don't really want to go do
Speaker 1: that thing, and so for it to be a nightmare
Speaker 1: of hers of this is how it could turn out.
Speaker 1: The inconsistencies, by and large, happen when she's involved, right
Speaker 1: some most not all though, but so like, okay, the
Speaker 1: other things that happened right like okay, So Jack cheats
Speaker 1: on her with an attractive lady who turns out to
Speaker 1: be like a bog monster. Right, her son is like
Speaker 1: super injured by weird supernatural things. She has a breakdown
Speaker 1: over Jack, saying like, hey, nothing's going on, the fact
Speaker 1: that it could just be a movie about her mental
Speaker 1: breakdown in isolation, that's compelling to me. I know people,
Speaker 1: I know a couple of people honestly currently who could
Speaker 1: have imagined something like that. I wouldn't be surprised if
Speaker 1: that's how they're experiencing life currently. To be honest, you know,
Speaker 1: I always hate that, you know, whatever a movie or
Speaker 1: anything like that, I was in the end, the guy
Speaker 1: always just wakes up, you know. I hate that crap.
Speaker 1: So I'm not buying this crap at all the way
Speaker 1: out Now, nobody was dreaming, can we give our gift?
Speaker 1: Now we can give our gift. At the last minute,
Speaker 1: we got a lucky break. Um. There's a producer friend
Speaker 1: that we know who's involved in Hollywood Lucas, and he
Speaker 1: happens to know the guys, a couple of folks who
Speaker 1: were evolved with filming of The Shining, like more than
Speaker 1: a little involved. It was it was a last minute Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean absolutely, I wasn't even was It was just me. Okay,
Speaker 1: So we got to talk to uh, Brian Cook. He
Speaker 1: was the assistant director on The Shining. He worked with
Speaker 1: Sanley on almost every one of his credit on literally
Speaker 1: every single movie. Yeah seven, and he didn't like it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so we've we've got. I was able to get
Speaker 1: an interview with him, and he's given us some great
Speaker 1: stuff and his impression and his thoughts on this. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna tell you now. It was done by Skype, and
Speaker 1: because it was such a last minute thing, audio is
Speaker 1: not the best. I stopped hearing the audio issues after
Speaker 1: a minute or two, but you probably will too. He's
Speaker 1: super interesting, he is. It's so interesting that that just
Speaker 1: does become a problem. So without further ado, we're gonna
Speaker 1: I'm gonna talk to Brian and then we'll come back
Speaker 1: to you. So it sounds like to me, and and
Speaker 1: tell me if I'm wrong here, is that things were
Speaker 1: set in stone. I mean it sounded like things were
Speaker 1: you had so much going on that it was always
Speaker 1: a little bit flexible as as you work through scenes
Speaker 1: and shots and how much of that would you say? Oh, definitely,
Speaker 1: I mean always with Stanley, you'd like the scene first,
Speaker 1: get all the art directions, set on addressing, and then
Speaker 1: he's bringing the actors into rehearsed and rewrite the scene
Speaker 1: and sit down with them. That would take a day,
Speaker 1: send him away to learn the lines, then come back
Speaker 1: and then we'd carry on lighting and then start shooting. Okay,
Speaker 1: the whole process was like that with him. I mean
Speaker 1: not exterios on Barry Lindland, for instance, because it was
Speaker 1: so difficult in Ireland islands, very difficult, you know, with
Speaker 1: the weather changing. I think probably you know, we would
Speaker 1: have Grant recast Ryan O'Neil when we closed down after
Speaker 1: six weeks on Barry Lindon. To be honest with you,
Speaker 1: he certainly thought about it. But if we hadn't had
Speaker 1: to go back to the South and we shoot all
Speaker 1: the exteriors. But anyway, you know, of course, that's why
Speaker 1: guys like Stanley like to shoot interiors so they can
Speaker 1: control the light, they can control everything when you're out
Speaker 1: something in the laugh of the guards, you know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and some of the stuff that I over in is that,
Speaker 1: you know, Stanley like to take a lot of shots
Speaker 1: of the same scene. Yeah, and sometimes what I've pretty
Speaker 1: described it's excessive before and I don't know, yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of a lot of the final
Speaker 1: shapes that use weren't, you know, take six teams. But
Speaker 1: Jack got the message and you know, he learned. You know,
Speaker 1: I don't really wind up until that. Don't put too
Speaker 1: much in early on with It took him a little while,
Speaker 1: you know, but the first month, but once we saw
Speaker 1: his working hours and everything out, there was no problem
Speaker 1: with Jack. Yeah, you know, because as I said, he
Speaker 1: didn't even have a standing. I mean, can you believe that?
Speaker 1: But Stanley, you know, the crew used to stand in
Speaker 1: and then of course you'd bring in the actors to
Speaker 1: life properly. Yeah, I mean, but that's the way it worked.
Speaker 1: I mean, no one else would work like that. But
Speaker 1: I mean it was a wonderful. Uh. It's such a
Speaker 1: holiday after working with Stanley when you go to work
Speaker 1: with other people, because you don't get along with app
Speaker 1: you just get do it automatically. You know, it doesn't
Speaker 1: get questions. But you know, once you get used to it.
Speaker 1: I used to have a lot, spend a lot of
Speaker 1: time telling new people, like, for instance, we had two
Speaker 1: or three art directors we got rid of early on
Speaker 1: before Roy came back on ice weight chart. They used
Speaker 1: to say to me, Brian, but you know you've got
Speaker 1: to build the said, I said, I know all that.
Speaker 1: We've got people for thirteen weeks daring around London every
Speaker 1: night taking photographs of New York streets. And I said,
Speaker 1: of course we aren't going to shoot. We did shoot
Speaker 1: for two nights, I think on the street in London,
Speaker 1: a side street. I said, we'd be building all this eventually.
Speaker 1: I said, but you've got to go through this stuff
Speaker 1: with Stanley. You know, if you told him a warning
Speaker 1: rather sold Terry saml But hell, you know, shoot it
Speaker 1: all in London who looks just like New York and say,
Speaker 1: I don't so was we do not bad? I mean
Speaker 1: you know that. That's that's saying what the rules are
Speaker 1: with Stanley. I mean they're all very well aware of that.
Speaker 1: These guys are smart. Guys are Warner Brothers are all smart,
Speaker 1: John Galli, Um, Bob Daily, Terry Samuel, you know Ted
Speaker 1: Ashley in the old days, you know they're not mugs.
Speaker 1: These guys were very very smart, successful people, um, and
Speaker 1: they didn't interfere with him at all, you know, and
Speaker 1: going on with him. But he had a winning track record.
Speaker 1: He made them money so over the years, you know,
Speaker 1: and of course he was an imposing person to be
Speaker 1: on the payroll. I mean, you know, he was a
Speaker 1: great a director, and studios have got to add that.
Speaker 1: And Robert Benton, who was a very good director and
Speaker 1: writer anyway, on Billy Basket all that was a flock film,
Speaker 1: and so was Seller actually, but I certainly worked on
Speaker 1: some blocks over the years. Expensive One had a few
Speaker 1: of those out there in general. Yeah, yeah, yeah, amazing
Speaker 1: when you think about it. But what else can I
Speaker 1: help you with in terms of well, so, actually, here's
Speaker 1: the reason that we're conspiracy stuff. Yeah, that's I was
Speaker 1: gonna get. That's where I was headed here, is that
Speaker 1: I've read a lot of this stuff, and just through
Speaker 1: interviews and research with other people, I found things that
Speaker 1: are wrong with these But what in general, I mean,
Speaker 1: what is your take on all of this conspiracy stuff?
Speaker 1: Like all these great guys, He'll moved continuity things out
Speaker 1: because if it's something in the frame, no matter how
Speaker 1: continuity is. If if it affects the frame being what
Speaker 1: he thought was a perfect frame, it would go and
Speaker 1: then it would come back in on the next thing.
Speaker 1: All that sort of stuff. But I mean, I went
Speaker 1: to see that awful film with my son and his partner,
Speaker 1: business partner, and we went to what we went to
Speaker 1: see it, and we left halfway through while we retired
Speaker 1: to the bar halfway through. So embarrassing. How they got
Speaker 1: away with making that and getting it distributed is amazing. Rubbish,
Speaker 1: absolute rubbish. But of course there are many different things
Speaker 1: that happened over when do you think where you've shot
Speaker 1: for nearly a year on the Shining and even the
Speaker 1: Little Boy, I mean, if you want to figure out things,
Speaker 1: there's a million mistakes which you can go backwards and
Speaker 1: forwards to the scenes months later. And also the actors change,
Speaker 1: I mean, the Little Boy changes in look to be
Speaker 1: honest with you, you know, all those sort of things.
Speaker 1: So there's certainly no conspiracy that I know with Stanley,
Speaker 1: I mean, even worse than ones about the moon landings
Speaker 1: and all that. I mean, where do these guys come from?
Speaker 1: It's unbelievable, what a lot of morons there are so
Speaker 1: many fruitcakes out there in this world. It's unbelievable. The
Speaker 1: boot learning is a pretty big stress to me. Oh,
Speaker 1: it's absolute joke. But he was. He was a very
Speaker 1: very good director Stanley. You know, a lot of people
Speaker 1: used to say they didn't think he was good with actors.
Speaker 1: I thought he was very good with actors. He gave
Speaker 1: them every opportunity to do whatever they wanted. And I
Speaker 1: know for a fact because I've worked three times with Jack.
Speaker 1: I've been lucky enough to work with him three times,
Speaker 1: two of them with Sean Penn directing. He was excellent director.
Speaker 1: By the way. I just did a film with him
Speaker 1: last year which I think is going to be a
Speaker 1: very good film, recalled The Last Face Shall You Throw On?
Speaker 1: And Javier Bardam, which we shot in Africa, so all
Speaker 1: set in the refugee counts in Serially Sudan and very
Speaker 1: interesting and a little bit in the United Nations. In
Speaker 1: Switzerland we've got Serially and a Liberia, So a big film.
Speaker 1: I think it would be a very good movie. He's
Speaker 1: a good director. Um, but no, all those conspiracies is
Speaker 1: absolute crap. I mean, order Starry used to say to
Speaker 1: me when we didn't know what we're doing. He said, well,
Speaker 1: we're the French film critics. Tell us what this was
Speaker 1: supposed to be about those sorts of things. Very very
Speaker 1: very funny man, I mean, you know, very humorous guy standing,
Speaker 1: very dry and had a very good sense of dry
Speaker 1: cent of humor about people in the film industry. That's
Speaker 1: for sure. I love talking to that guy. Interesting, man,
Speaker 1: I know the word. The hard part is it was
Speaker 1: an hour and a half conversation, Like we talked for
Speaker 1: so long about so much he gave me. He's the
Speaker 1: one who told me about the typewriter, the pages. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's how I know. Well, he also had that
Speaker 1: to say about the continuity thing. He said, you know,
Speaker 1: that's not a conspiracy. It's just that sometimes he would
Speaker 1: look at it and say, you know, that chair just
Speaker 1: does doesn't it really kind of it's kind of changes
Speaker 1: to balance the scene. So let's put that chair out.
Speaker 1: Then the next scene the chairs back in, you know.
Speaker 1: Was yeah, and that's it was really nice of him
Speaker 1: to actually make the time everything and ran and everybody
Speaker 1: who helped us get that. That was fantastic. I think
Speaker 1: you know, Steve said, listen to this interview so that
Speaker 1: we can talk about it a little bit, and I
Speaker 1: just responded with, how did you get that? In? Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, that is so cool. But I think he
Speaker 1: makes some really really good pointstatic because in fairness, right,
Speaker 1: like you want to believe there's so much lower around
Speaker 1: Stanley Kubrick, right, people say like, oh, he had an
Speaker 1: IQ of two hundred, which is bunk. I mean maybe
Speaker 1: he did. He seemed like he was like a really
Speaker 1: really smart guy. I don't know if anybody has, but
Speaker 1: I think that to make claims that the shining of
Speaker 1: all of his movies had all of this subtext, I
Speaker 1: think he wanted to make a horror movie. He did
Speaker 1: and and yeah, like he you know, like it says
Speaker 1: in the interview like Jack Nicholson realized real quick, like hey,
Speaker 1: maybe you don't give a on your first take, like
Speaker 1: it's never going to be perfect. And I think that
Speaker 1: that explains so much of the movie, like, especially since
Speaker 1: you're working with an actual five year old, when you
Speaker 1: get into the continuity of the carpet was different, like
Speaker 1: well he was a five year old. Like they took
Speaker 1: it from different angles, but they came back the next
Speaker 1: day and they didn't check their their their polaroids to
Speaker 1: know what the scene exactly was said up that, I mean,
Speaker 1: all these things happened, of course. So my personal take
Speaker 1: is that Stanley was a great director and a great filmmaker,
Speaker 1: and he had a fantastic eye for detail for what
Speaker 1: should and shouldn't be in the shot. His use of
Speaker 1: one point perspective is I've never seen anybody else pull
Speaker 1: it off like he does. He was great at what
Speaker 1: he did. Was he making all of these over or
Speaker 1: not are not overt things? I don't I don't think so.
Speaker 1: I think that he left so much up open to
Speaker 1: interpretation on purpose, not knowing that people were going to
Speaker 1: go nuts, and it drove him crazy because there there
Speaker 1: are statements from him saying some whack job makes something up,
Speaker 1: but then it sticks and it won't go with I
Speaker 1: can't say enough that it's not right. Yeah, so the
Speaker 1: genie got out of the bottle. Yeah, much more than
Speaker 1: I think he intended. As Devin and I had both
Speaker 1: said repeatedly, if he wanted to make him movie about
Speaker 1: the end or you know whatever, he would have just
Speaker 1: done it. Yeah. It was, you know, it was, you know,
Speaker 1: that big question mark on all of his movies. Sure,
Speaker 1: but he made movies about what he wanted to make
Speaker 1: movies about. And sometimes you just have to set a
Speaker 1: sense of place where like a kid happens to wear
Speaker 1: a good well sweater of Apollo eleven or things that
Speaker 1: a boy of that age at that time would wear,
Speaker 1: is what he was looking for. You know, back in
Speaker 1: those days, you know, the Space Program was still a
Speaker 1: big thing for kids. When I was a kid, you know,
Speaker 1: I was that was all nuts about the Space Program.
Speaker 1: I thought it was really awesome. You still are? You
Speaker 1: got that helmet that we have to make a take
Speaker 1: off because we can't hear you. I think, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think it's it's fair to say that, you know,
Speaker 1: there were just a lot of takes that happened with
Speaker 1: this movie, and it's not a whole lot deeper than
Speaker 1: it should have been. I would I would agree, wholeheartedly absolutely. Okay, well, everybody,
Speaker 1: we are going to go ahead and put a bow
Speaker 1: on this one. Finally, finally, this is a longer one
Speaker 1: than I realized it was gonna be. We will have
Speaker 1: links and this episode, of course, as always on our website,
Speaker 1: which is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com, and you can
Speaker 1: streen the show from there or downloaded. A lot of
Speaker 1: folks use iTunes and a lot of folks stream through
Speaker 1: other services. If you're on iTunes, do take the time
Speaker 1: to leave a rating and a comment. We have been
Speaker 1: moving up the charts, which is absolutely great. We're really
Speaker 1: enjoying that we are on a couple of places for
Speaker 1: social media. We're gonna be on Twitter. We're gonna be
Speaker 1: we are on Twitter. We are on Twitter, and we
Speaker 1: are at thinking Sideways without the G in the middle.
Speaker 1: We do tweet on a sort of regular semi maybe
Speaker 1: happened at basis, I'm tweeting right now. We are on Facebook.
Speaker 1: We have the Facebook group and the Facebook page, both
Speaker 1: of which are a lot of fun. And if you
Speaker 1: have any thoughts about what we've talked about or the
Speaker 1: things that we've missed, and I apologize, this episode is
Speaker 1: long already and there's so much lore and little facts
Speaker 1: in details that we had to cut we couldn't bring in.
Speaker 1: Be aware that we didn't not know a lot of
Speaker 1: these hubric things. It just takes a lotle. I'll talk
Speaker 1: about it, yeah, and then you know, we have the
Speaker 1: interview who but like basically, but if you have if
Speaker 1: you've got something great to share, about Kubrick and you
Speaker 1: want to, you can send us an email at Thinking
Speaker 1: Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. Apologize to folks in
Speaker 1: advance because I know that we've been okay about it,
Speaker 1: but there's a big event that is coming that is
Speaker 1: going to be around the time that this episode drops,
Speaker 1: so we might be a little bit delinquent. Yeah, sorry,
Speaker 1: it took all of us away. Uh. And last, but
Speaker 1: certainly not least. If you like what we do here
Speaker 1: at the show and you're enjoying it, uh, you do
Speaker 1: consider helping support the show to to put up more
Speaker 1: episodes like this. We're on Patreon, so it's Patreon slash
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways patreon dot com. Yeah, slash Thinking Sideways. You
Speaker 1: can go there. You can set an amount that you
Speaker 1: would like to donate to the show per episode, completely voluntary,
Speaker 1: absolutely voluntary. You know, if you decide you don't want
Speaker 1: to do anymore, you can quit or it's just not
Speaker 1: your bag. We're going to keep doing this, but we
Speaker 1: do appreciate all of that help. No no pressure, because
Speaker 1: I certainly don't hit the tip chart every blog that
Speaker 1: I go to. So now we try. I know I try,
Speaker 1: but it's hard because there are so many out there.
Speaker 1: We understand that there are that. I think that's enough.
Speaker 1: So ladies and gentlemen, we're gonna go ahead and sign off,
Speaker 1: and we will talk to you next week. Oh bye, guys. Yeah,
Speaker 1: oh hey, hey guys. So we actually didn't leave yet.
Speaker 1: It listened. There was so much great audio in our
Speaker 1: in my conversation with Brian, that I wanted to share
Speaker 1: a little bit more of it with you. It didn't
Speaker 1: fit in the path of the podcast in terms of
Speaker 1: where we were in the story and in the theories.
Speaker 1: But this is great stuff about the things that he did,
Speaker 1: and so we're going to bring that to you right now.
Speaker 1: And so much bleeping, you guys, I'm so exor yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a little bit of bleeping. There's a good number
Speaker 1: of bleping. If we didn't edit our show, this is
Speaker 1: what it would sound like to Yeah, I'm not putting
Speaker 1: Brian down because I certainly say those words too. It
Speaker 1: absolutely enjoy you guys. Okay, goodbye for reels. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: meet at this time. But I think that conspiracy stuff,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just nonsense. That's all you can say
Speaker 1: about it. To be honest, it's hard to sort of
Speaker 1: make a program on it because you know, it's difficult.
Speaker 1: I didn't know quite how you do it. Just you
Speaker 1: look at all the things and so well, this is
Speaker 1: not true. Well that's that's kind of what we do,
Speaker 1: is we find what we can to pull apart, and
Speaker 1: then we just give everything else and say this is
Speaker 1: what they say. Yeah, and you know I can assure
Speaker 1: you that none of that ever came into play. I
Speaker 1: mean you could. You can feel from what I've been
Speaker 1: talking to you about the tiny minu shirt detailed trivia
Speaker 1: that we used to play with it on everything. Yeah, everything,
Speaker 1: no matter what you ordered. You know, Stanley would want
Speaker 1: to know. And you know Stanley used to print the
Speaker 1: phat the payroll printed out every week. You'd look at
Speaker 1: the petty cash everything. I mean, you know, you don't
Speaker 1: know how standing a time of doing and even think
Speaker 1: about directing the film. That was the last thing that
Speaker 1: get around for doing it, you know, But you get
Speaker 1: used to it, and you get used to working his way,
Speaker 1: and he is very loyal and you find all these
Speaker 1: what I call big good directors. You look at the
Speaker 1: credits over the years, same old cameramains, same old production designers,
Speaker 1: same old editors, same old assistant directors when they get
Speaker 1: somebody who they can also get on with, because if
Speaker 1: you're working with someone like Stanley, I mean, obviously there's
Speaker 1: a two and a half years on the last picture.
Speaker 1: That's a lot. Yeah. Well we shot for a year
Speaker 1: and a half nearly or something with a lot of stops,
Speaker 1: so that I mean we shot the nearly three hundred days. Um,
Speaker 1: you know you need to have people that you can
Speaker 1: get on with. I mean it's not and I must say,
Speaker 1: you know, in fairness, someone like Tom I mean he
Speaker 1: was incredible on the last time I thought. I mean,
Speaker 1: he's a very easy guy to get on with and
Speaker 1: was of course. I used to say to him, I
Speaker 1: can't understand. You better get a new agent. I mean,
Speaker 1: you're here for a team, but I can't believe you've
Speaker 1: got an open ended deal. You much should have talked
Speaker 1: to Jack. You know. He used to keep coming to
Speaker 1: me and saying, Brian, I've got three other films to make.
Speaker 1: I said, if we haven't need to start, I said,
Speaker 1: don't worry back. Can you see the light at the
Speaker 1: end of the tunnel? I said, you only left the
Speaker 1: hotel to go to the stage to get on the train. Yet,
Speaker 1: don't find a tunnel. I mean, nice guy though, and
Speaker 1: got on very well with Stanley. I remember only two
Speaker 1: occasions in eighteen months when he lost his rag a bit,
Speaker 1: and that was only during rehearsal when there was no
Speaker 1: one there. I have to be outside the door where
Speaker 1: I used to be when these was just with two
Speaker 1: three actors and Stanley, and he comes straight back after
Speaker 1: five minutes and apologize. You know, yeah, nice guy. I
Speaker 1: liked him very much, and I've worked with Nicole quite
Speaker 1: a bit, so you know, I knew them very well. Really, yeah,
Speaker 1: so so that that they were fine. Strange movie, strange
Speaker 1: choice of the movie. I was very surprised when I
Speaker 1: read the script that that's what we were going to make,
Speaker 1: because really Stanley wanted to do AI, you know, that's
Speaker 1: what he planned on doing. But I think the studio
Speaker 1: were a little who knows whether it's true or not.
Speaker 1: My guess was that they were very you know, it
Speaker 1: would have been a very very expensive film with Stanley
Speaker 1: doing it would have been very different films to Spielberg's
Speaker 1: efforts on It would have been a very different film.
Speaker 1: But he spent a lot of such a lot of
Speaker 1: time preparing it, you know, Um, I think they wanted
Speaker 1: to make a all the film, and I think the
Speaker 1: idea was that warners, we're going to split it with
Speaker 1: Steven Spielberg in terms of financing. You understanding that was
Speaker 1: the idea. But I mean there's no the thing as
Speaker 1: making a small film is you know that what doesn't exist,
Speaker 1: and it's very difficult for these sort of guys because
Speaker 1: you've got to try and do something better than you've
Speaker 1: done before. It was the same problem for David Lean.
Speaker 1: You know, my father did six films with David Lee.
Speaker 1: Where are you based. We're based out of Portland, Organs.
Speaker 1: All right, well, of course should that to the Overlook Hotel? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: we I have not been, but I know Joe has
Speaker 1: been to the Timberline one of the other co hosts,
Speaker 1: of course, but yeah, we saw a lot of that footage.
Speaker 1: It's very familiar. Yeah, of course, I'm sure. And of
Speaker 1: course the opening sequence which I got Greg to do
Speaker 1: in the end was in Heaven's Gate Country of course,
Speaker 1: where we were in Glacier National Park. I mean that
Speaker 1: he did a great job for us, Greg, you know,
Speaker 1: they were he was the chop man and very good. Um,
Speaker 1: I'd work with him in Greece many years ago on
Speaker 1: a film with James Koburn called The sky Riders and
Speaker 1: they were really terrific Jim and he got killed unfortunately
Speaker 1: on the scouting trip for a commercial that chopper came down. Jim. Yeah,
Speaker 1: very sad, but yeah, he's a good guy. Greg mcgilby
Speaker 1: did a great job on that opening sequence. Yes, atlastic. Yeah,
Speaker 1: never worked by car. We spent three months they've been
Speaker 1: around doing it from front bank again with cars. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: at all I knew that would be but you know,
Speaker 1: use your staff were standing that you start you on
Speaker 1: the cheep and then I had to spend the money.
Speaker 1: But you know, he wasn't white about the schedule stand
Speaker 1: He was more interested in the weekly running costs. He
Speaker 1: would keep those as low as possible, small screw apart
Speaker 1: from when you needed them, you know, to keep because
Speaker 1: he knew he was going to shoot for a long time,
Speaker 1: you know. And um, but he certainly was a unique guy,
Speaker 1: no question about that. I mean, a true visionary. My
Speaker 1: father did a lot of stuff six films with David
Speaker 1: Lean and also worked with Stanley said that for him,
Speaker 1: David Lean was the best storyteller of all of the
Speaker 1: big directors, and he'd worked with Houston a lot, and
Speaker 1: he thought David Lean was the best storyteller of a
Speaker 1: major novel bringing it to the screen, and that Stanley
Speaker 1: was more of a visionary who had terrific vision for movies.
Speaker 1: You know. I think that was a pretty good description
Speaker 1: of it from the old man, actually, because I think
Speaker 1: that's the case. I mean, David Lean was a wonderful
Speaker 1: director of math. And of course all these guys, these
Speaker 1: big guys, they can work on a big canvas, which
Speaker 1: a lot of them can't do. I mean I did
Speaker 1: a lot of films with Michael Jamino, I know, not
Speaker 1: that successfully in the last few years from Heaven's Gate,
Speaker 1: but Michael could work on a big canvas, you know,
Speaker 1: A Coupler can Ridley can, Michael Mann, Cameron. You know,
Speaker 1: these guys can many many directors can't. They're very good
Speaker 1: on a smaller canvas um and make them very good films.
Speaker 1: Of course they did, I mean excellent films. But you know,
Speaker 1: that big canvas thing is it's something you've either got
Speaker 1: you haven't. Yeah, absolutely, that's another world out there doing that.
Speaker 1: And also you know the costs that go with that
Speaker 1: on those sort of movies, they all escalated. I mean
Speaker 1: particular period films. You know, I've never understood anyone who
Speaker 1: ever thinks that they can make a big period film
Speaker 1: for the money that started you start out with. Its
Speaker 1: just impossibility. I mean, you only ever get the leading
Speaker 1: ladies on the period film for six seven hours a day,
Speaker 1: because you know, time to get them there in the morning,
Speaker 1: to get them ready, couple of hours at least, getting
Speaker 1: them ready, dressing them, lunch, chack all the gear off,
Speaker 1: get them back after lunch, remake up, the travel time,
Speaker 1: all of you know, I think you know my experiences.
Speaker 1: You get six seven hours working day off of the
Speaker 1: leading lady on a big period movie, well, I mean
Speaker 1: everyone schedules these things for the twelve our days. Well,
Speaker 1: it's not existent. I don't know one's ever worked that out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it amazes me every time we talk about it. It's
Speaker 1: very Yeah, of course, the thing is, you know, much
Speaker 1: of your style on those big films. It's like a
Speaker 1: great big tanker at sea, and stopping them and turning
Speaker 1: them around is a whole different ballgame in it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it doesn't happen. I mean you just got to hope
Speaker 1: that you know, you get Lucky heard a free the
Speaker 1: other day trying to turn the Titanic with the canoe paddle,
Speaker 1: and that sounds like that's appropriate. I've been on a
Speaker 1: few of those, yeah,