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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How does a beauty queen,

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Speaker 1: a straight A student when she was in school, the

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Speaker 1: mother of eight four bio four adopted end up dead

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Speaker 1: and the bathtub of her own home. Crime Stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. I'm talking about a beautiful mother. Michelle McNeill. Listen.

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Speaker 1: Michelle Summers was a fresh faced beauty queen from California,

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Speaker 1: a sometime model with a string of suitors, but it

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Speaker 1: was a handsome, aspiring doctor named Martin McNeill who made

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Speaker 1: her fall hard and fast. They elope when Michelle was

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Speaker 1: twenty one, and soon afterward you started a family. Michelle

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Speaker 1: Marie Summers grew up in southern California and graduated in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five. She was royalty, being chosen as homecoming queen.

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Speaker 1: That same year. She met Martin McNeill, who had ambitions,

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Speaker 1: eventually becoming a lawyer and then a doctor. But after

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Speaker 1: twenty nine years of marriage, it all came to an end.

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Speaker 1: One night in two thousand and seven. You're hearing our

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Speaker 1: friends at ABC giving a recap about who is Michelle

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Speaker 1: Summers McNeil. But there's so much more to her than

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Speaker 1: what you just heard, And I think her starring role

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Speaker 1: was being a mother again. This is crime Stories. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us. Let me introduce you an

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Speaker 1: all star panel to make sense of it all. First

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Speaker 1: of all, Dale Carson are now to attorney, joining us

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Speaker 1: out of Jacksonville. Former FBI agent, former author of Arrest

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Speaker 1: Proof Yourself. You can find him Adel Carson Law dot com.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Sherry Sorts and Joy joining us. Forensic psychologists specializing

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Speaker 1: in crimes just like this at Panthermitigation dot com. She's

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Speaker 1: the author of Criminal Behavior. Doctor Michelle Duprie, longtime colleague,

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Speaker 1: forensic pathologists, former medical examiner, author off she literally wrote

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Speaker 1: the book Homicide Investigation Field Guy. She's at d Michelle

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Speaker 1: Duprie MD dot com. Justin Boardman joining us. Former special

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Speaker 1: Victims Unit detective, author of I Was Wrong. You can

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Speaker 1: find him at justin Boardman dot com. But first I'm

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Speaker 1: going to go to Connor Richards, reporter joining us out

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Speaker 1: of Utah. You can find him at Connor Richards Media

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Speaker 1: dot Worldpress dot com. Connor, thanks so much for being

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Speaker 1: with us. You know, somehow and all of this discussion

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Speaker 1: of her murder, we forget who is Michelle Summers McNeil.

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Speaker 1: Not only she beautiful on the outside, just as I said,

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Speaker 1: a beauty queen. She was Miss Concord. She was a

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Speaker 1: homecoming queen, but she was loved. Everybody loved her. You know,

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Speaker 1: homecoming queen is based on popularity. Who likes you. She

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Speaker 1: was loved by everyone, and she gave all that love

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Speaker 1: back to four bio children and then taking in four

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Speaker 1: other children, even from other countries that didn't have homes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she was a multi winning beauty beauty paget contestant, and

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Speaker 1: she had a lot of skills as well. She grew

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Speaker 1: up playing the violin, she was active in theater, and

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Speaker 1: also she was a cheerleader. So she really had a

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Speaker 1: lot going for her. And then when you hear her

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Speaker 1: children talk about her, that's when you really get a

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Speaker 1: sense for the type of woman she was. After all

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Speaker 1: this happened, her children described her as being loving and

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Speaker 1: forgiving and gave them a really excellent life. And so

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Speaker 1: really by hearing her children talk about them, you get

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Speaker 1: a sense of who she was. But certainly a talented

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Speaker 1: person with a lot of love to give to the world.

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Speaker 1: As she meets her or soon to be husband, Martin McNeill,

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Speaker 1: a doctor and a lawyer. Of course, she helps him

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Speaker 1: get through graduate school. But they meet at a church function.

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Speaker 1: They're both with the Church of Latter day Saints, the Mormons.

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Speaker 1: They meeted a church function and very quickly, Elope, how

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Speaker 1: does it all end like this? Take a listen to

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Speaker 1: a nine one one call from husband Martin McNeill. We

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Speaker 1: have medical okay, okay, I can't understand you content a

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Speaker 1: little man? Okay? What is your wife is unconscious? You're

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Speaker 1: uncount the world? Okay, you get her out of the water,

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Speaker 1: the world she under the water here, I'm okay, she

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Speaker 1: breathing at all? Okay, there's the ferment because they take

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Speaker 1: They're on their way. Okay, may have what Okay, you're

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Speaker 1: hearing just part of that nine o one call. Uh

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Speaker 1: you heard the first call, but now listen to this.

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Speaker 1: There's more. I would don't care. I'll be there's a

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Speaker 1: nine one one. Can I help you? They're on their way?

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Speaker 1: Is your wife breathing? In progress? You're doing? How old

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Speaker 1: is your wife? What kind what a faceless? Yes? Okay?

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Speaker 1: Do you know how to do CPR? Employer Okay. In

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Speaker 1: the rush of CPR, finding his wife in the bathtub,

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Speaker 1: apparently drowned, he hangs up on two nine one one

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Speaker 1: calls straight out to renown criminal defense attorney Deal Carson

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Speaker 1: joining us out of Jacksonville, del I love playing a

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Speaker 1: nine one one call at the beginning of a trial

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Speaker 1: as soon at the beginning as I can. You know,

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Speaker 1: you got to get it an evidence. It's got to

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Speaker 1: be authenticated, so you have to go through a couple

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Speaker 1: of evidentiary hoops. If you're a veteran trial lawyer, you

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Speaker 1: don't even have to look him up in the code.

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Speaker 1: You know what you got to do to get that

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Speaker 1: nine one one call in. Do you feel the same way,

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Speaker 1: and why do you like a nine one one call? Well,

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Speaker 1: it shows what's going on at the scene at the moment,

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Speaker 1: So it's it's elemental to understanding what went on at

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Speaker 1: the scene at the time that the person was discovered.

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Speaker 1: I mean, because we hear something very critical. She just

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Speaker 1: had surgery and she's in a bathtub. I mean, maybe

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Speaker 1: it's just me, but doctor Michelle Dupree not only a

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Speaker 1: forensic pathologist. That means you're a medical doctor. I thought

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Speaker 1: when you had surgery, you're not supposed to submerge yourself

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Speaker 1: in water for a period of time. That's true, ancy,

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Speaker 1: But if this was only on her face, then she

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Speaker 1: would be able to take a bath. So, okay, she

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Speaker 1: just had surgery. It was plastic surgery, cosmetic surgery. So

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Speaker 1: she didn't have anything like a tummy tuck or liepa

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Speaker 1: or anything like that. It was all on her face.

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Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to that. I think it

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Speaker 1: was only on Connor Richards. What kind of cosmetic surgery

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Speaker 1: did she have? Yeah, this was a faceless surgery at

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Speaker 1: the recommendation of her husband. Oh well, wait, doctor Sherry Schwartz,

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Speaker 1: it would be a cold day in h double L.

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Speaker 1: I believe that my husband David would come in and and

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Speaker 1: tell me I needed plastic surgery. Even if I do,

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Speaker 1: I mean to tell your why you need plastic surgery?

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Speaker 1: No that I mean, of course, it's insulting. And she

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Speaker 1: didn't want to She was afraid to have the surgery,

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Speaker 1: and he persuaded her. But the word I choose to

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Speaker 1: use as more manipulated. You know, I was thinking about

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Speaker 1: her getting talked into plastic surgery. You know, Dot, you

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Speaker 1: do pretty plastic surgery. It's not to be entered into lightly.

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Speaker 1: Joan Rivers, believe it or not. I know, we're unlikely friends,

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Speaker 1: but she and I were friends. How did that happen? Oh?

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Speaker 1: I was at a hit one time, talking about illegal

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Speaker 1: matter and it was in the same building as Joan

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Speaker 1: Rivers offices, and she happened to walk by, and of

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Speaker 1: course I was too star strict to say anything, but

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Speaker 1: she said, hey, Nancy Grace, and we started talking. We

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Speaker 1: became very unlikely friends and mostly talked about raising children. Okay,

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Speaker 1: And she went in for a very airy, minor procedure

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Speaker 1: on her nose or her I don't know what she died.

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Speaker 1: So you kind of think long and hard about plastic surgery,

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Speaker 1: doctor Dubris, exactly, Nancy. Any type of surgery, it carries

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Speaker 1: risk with it, and it can be risk from the

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Speaker 1: surgery itself, or risk from the anesthesia, or risk after

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Speaker 1: the surgery is over. So Justin Boardman from our Special

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Speaker 1: Victim's Unit, Detective Justin, I understand she didn't want I mean,

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Speaker 1: have you seen pictures of her before surgery. She's gorgeous.

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Speaker 1: I understand she didn't want the surgery because she's worried

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Speaker 1: about her blood pressure. She didn't want that plastic surgery. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she's a very stunning woman. Yeah, I mean her feeling

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Speaker 1: about her husband and his desire for her to look

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Speaker 1: even younger than she already looked played into her decision

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Speaker 1: for that plastic surgery. So it's not a good thing

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Speaker 1: to be submerged in water in a bathtub after surgery,

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Speaker 1: when you're still on pain meds. What was going on

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Speaker 1: in that dynamic? Take a listen to our friend Elizabeth

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Speaker 1: Vargas at Nightline. My father turned fifty. He started acting

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Speaker 1: very strangely. He became just very obsessed with losing weight

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Speaker 1: in his appearance. How did your mom react? She was suspicious.

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Speaker 1: Michelle became very suspicious and confided in her daughter Alexis

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Speaker 1: that she thought that her husband was having an affair.

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Speaker 1: Michelle confronted Martin McNeil with allegations of an affair, and,

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Speaker 1: ever the manipulator, he turned the tables on her. Martin

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Speaker 1: McNeil convinced her she needed a full on face lift.

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Speaker 1: She was afraid that she was losing her husband. Martin

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Speaker 1: had found a plastic surgeon and came in with a

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Speaker 1: list of things that he wanted Michelle to have. Michelle

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Speaker 1: ended up being prescribed percocet laura tab valium ambien. Again.

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Speaker 1: Martin McNeil insisted his wife go home with prescriptions for

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Speaker 1: lots of sedatives and painkillers. The surgeon deferred to Martin

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Speaker 1: McNeill because doctor McNeill planned to take care of his

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Speaker 1: wife personally. What could go wrong? What could go wrong?

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Speaker 1: You're hearing me talking to our friend Elizabeth Vargas. A

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Speaker 1: lot went wrong? Crime stories with Nancy Grace and Martin

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Speaker 1: McNeill came home from work. Wait no, wait, Connor Richards,

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Speaker 1: was he at work or had he dropped the little

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Speaker 1: daughter at one of the daughters at school? Where was

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Speaker 1: he when Michelle got into the tub. He got home

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Speaker 1: with one of the daughters. And at that point he

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Speaker 1: asked his daughter to go check on their mom, and

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Speaker 1: it with the young daughter who had discovered her. Oh,

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Speaker 1: so he's going to pick the daughter up from school.

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Speaker 1: She comes in, she runs in first and finds mommy

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Speaker 1: dead in the bathtub. Take a listen now to our

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Speaker 1: long time friend to colleague, Jane Cassaris, and she said, Alexei,

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Speaker 1: I don't know why, but your dad kept giving me medication.

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Speaker 1: I went to my father and I said, what happened?

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Speaker 1: Obviously mom is over medicated. She said she didn't want

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Speaker 1: my dad to give her any more medication. She wanted

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Speaker 1: me to be in charge. Alexis was always suspicious of

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Speaker 1: Willis and says her father didn't wait long after her

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Speaker 1: mother's funeral to move his lover into their home. My

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Speaker 1: dad called me on the phone and said Alexis had

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Speaker 1: found the perfect nanny. I said, oh, Dad, what's her name?

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Speaker 1: And he started to say he said Jillian. I said, Dad,

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Speaker 1: Gipsy Gillian Willis. I know that woman. I know Mom

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Speaker 1: was worried you were having an affair with her, and

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Speaker 1: you're not to bring her into this home, Okay, So

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Speaker 1: as soon as the wife passes away, he's order got

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Speaker 1: a plan to bring in Gypsy Willis the nanny into

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Speaker 1: the home to Connor Richards joining us out of Utah. Connor,

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Speaker 1: isn't it true that Gypsy Willis, the lover that Michelle

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Speaker 1: was worried about, came to the funeral. Yeah, that is true,

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Speaker 1: and she did so apparently without being invited. And her

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Speaker 1: justification for that, but she said in an interview was

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Speaker 1: that well, nobody there knew who she was, so she

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Speaker 1: thought she could make an appearance. And she says that

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Speaker 1: she did it as a nice gesture because she had

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Speaker 1: felt bad. But of course, you know, showing up to

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Speaker 1: a funeral like that might not look look the best.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that the first time that some of the children

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Speaker 1: had ever met Gypsy willis? Yes, that is I mean,

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Speaker 1: doctor Sherry Schwartz. I mean, I'm just a trial lawyer.

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Speaker 1: You're the shrink. But to try to introduce a nanny

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Speaker 1: who happens to be your mistress to your children at

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Speaker 1: the mother's funeral, that's all wrong on so many levels.

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Speaker 1: It's incredibly callous nancy. At the very least, it shows

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Speaker 1: an intense lack of empathy for your dead wife. It

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Speaker 1: certainly doesn't scream that you are suffering and grieving, And

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Speaker 1: it shows a lack of empathy for your grieving children

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Speaker 1: who just lost their mother. You know. And in terms

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Speaker 1: of Gypsy, I don't understand the reasoning. Why would you

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Speaker 1: even be a party to that? Why would you show

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Speaker 1: up and participate in their grief? You know? Dale Carson,

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Speaker 1: criminal defense attorney. A lot of defense attorneys would argue

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Speaker 1: that behavior such as this does not prove guilt, that

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Speaker 1: a philanderer or a cheater does not a murderer make

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Speaker 1: And I have this to say, it sure doesn't help.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't help. And I like to exam am and

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Speaker 1: behavior at the funeral or the memorial and what could

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Speaker 1: be more callous and bringing in your knee mistress at

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Speaker 1: your wife's funeral. Dell, how are you gonna dress that

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Speaker 1: up at trial? How are you gonna put perfume on

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Speaker 1: that pig? You're gonna try to keep it out as

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Speaker 1: best you can, because it's horrified always coming in. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's coming in, You're right, but a coose that we

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Speaker 1: don't have any control over someone else involved in a relationship.

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Speaker 1: So she's gonna do what she wants to do. It's

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Speaker 1: a free country. Well, you know what, Good luck arguing

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Speaker 1: it's a free country at trial, because no woman on

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Speaker 1: that jury is gonna want to imagine her husband flouting

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Speaker 1: his mistress at her funeral. In Oh, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: can't stress that enough. But this is what we know.

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Speaker 1: Let's get off the funeral and the mistress and who

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Speaker 1: he's having sex with and focus on the cause of death.

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Speaker 1: Take to listen to our friend Marcos Ortiz ABC four.

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Speaker 1: At first, it was ruled accidental. A week earlier, she

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Speaker 1: had cosmetic surgery and Martin McNeill was personally medicating her.

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Speaker 1: At the time, Alexis Summers was a medical student and

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Speaker 1: was already suspicious. My mother began to suspect that my

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Speaker 1: father was having an affair, and she confided in me.

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Speaker 1: It turned out her mother was white. Gypsy Willis was

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Speaker 1: Martin McNeill's mistress. Did the relationship become sexual? One was that?

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Speaker 1: I think that was In January of two thousand and six,

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Speaker 1: Summers set out to prove her father gave their mother

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Speaker 1: the wrong drugs, causing her death. We uncovered who he

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Speaker 1: truly was and he was actually a monster. McNeill introduced

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Speaker 1: Willis as the younger children's nanny and moved in. Unhappy

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Speaker 1: with a police investigation, Rachel McNeill began investigating her father online.

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Speaker 1: Gypsy's roommate who contacted me and said that Gypsy she

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Speaker 1: overheard Gypsy saying that she wanted to cut the break

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Speaker 1: lines from my mother. Willis allegedly wanted Michelle McNeil out

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Speaker 1: of the way. Wait a minute, what am I hearing?

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Speaker 1: Connor Richards, Gypsy Willis the mistress wanted to cut Michelle's

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Speaker 1: break lines. Well, there's also been allegations or talk about

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Speaker 1: her having discussed or stalked Michelle as well, and so yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a there's a lot going on here, and when

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Speaker 1: you dig deep into it, it really does look like

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Speaker 1: Gypsy had some more involvement there. Can you tell me

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Speaker 1: about her stalking Michelle before Michelle's death, Well, this is

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Speaker 1: something that they looked into and apparently yeah, I don't

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Speaker 1: really have the details on it, but she would stalk Michelle.

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Speaker 1: And as you said, there's also talked about her cutting

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Speaker 1: the break lines, and so there's a lot of things

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Speaker 1: that happened before the death that don't really look good

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Speaker 1: to Gypsy in terms of her involvement. So, Doctor Dupree,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about cod We know that doctor McNeill specifically

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Speaker 1: asked for additional painkillers like oxycodone to be prescribed for

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Speaker 1: his wife, including medications that typically would not have been

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Speaker 1: prescribed following a facelift. We also know that Michelle was

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Speaker 1: getting concerned that Martin McNeill, her husband, was over medicating her.

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Speaker 1: So concerned she put her daughter, Alexis, med student, in

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Speaker 1: charge of her medications. Alexis got her stabilize, she was

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Speaker 1: on the road to recovery. She went back to med

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Speaker 1: school one day later, Michelle is dead. Now what do

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Speaker 1: you think of the initial autopsy that rule this was

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Speaker 1: an accident based on heart problems? Yes, yeah, I find

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Speaker 1: that unusual. Anytime someone is in a bathtub with water,

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Speaker 1: we have to rule out every other cause of death.

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Speaker 1: We should have looked at this a lot, a lot

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Speaker 1: more strongly, looked at all the other evidence. Look at

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Speaker 1: you know, why couldn't she get out of the bathtub,

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Speaker 1: And we would have done a toxicology report, and having

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Speaker 1: done that toxicology, we would see that she was over medicated,

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Speaker 1: and that's why she couldn't get out of the bathtub.

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Speaker 1: Over medicated. In fact, she was so concerned about Martin

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Speaker 1: McNeil's dosage she specifically asked her daughter to take over

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Speaker 1: her meds to Connor Richards, joining us out of Utah

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Speaker 1: at Connor Richard's media dot Worldpress dot com. What about

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Speaker 1: the previous episode where she had been over medicated and

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Speaker 1: managed to live. Yeah, well, so there was a time

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Speaker 1: when she confided in her daughter and told her, well,

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Speaker 1: she had been over She had been over medicated, as

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Speaker 1: you mentioned, and she told her daughter that she wanted

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Speaker 1: her to take the pills out and actually let her

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Speaker 1: feel them. In her hands so she would know what

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Speaker 1: her husband was giving her because she couldn't see because

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Speaker 1: she had an eye patch on her eyes. And so

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Speaker 1: she also told the daughter, Hey, if something ends up

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Speaker 1: happening to me, I want you to make sure that

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Speaker 1: it wasn't your dad. And so this is this is

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Speaker 1: really where the daughter started to become suspicious and worry

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Speaker 1: that there was foul play here. To Justin Bourneman, former

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Speaker 1: Special Victims Unit detective, author of I was Wrong and

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Speaker 1: investigator's battlecry for change within the Special Victim's Unit. Justin

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Speaker 1: how many times have you and I heard that for

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Speaker 1: a homicide victim says in life, if anything happens to me,

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Speaker 1: X did it? And she said that, well, for me,

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Speaker 1: that's happened once. I was at the police department that

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Speaker 1: investigated the Susan Powell case in Utah and she left

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Speaker 1: note in her final drawer at her work. One of

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Speaker 1: the things I also thought was a little weird that

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Speaker 1: maybe the doctor can explain some of this, But if

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Speaker 1: you are found dead over the edge of a bathtub,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't you have some lividity issues from how she was

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Speaker 1: found that may have screened out? This isn't how it happened?

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Speaker 1: What about it? Dodges de Free. Yes, absolutely there should

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Speaker 1: be tusealthigns on the body, perhaps lividity, again depending on

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Speaker 1: the actually when the time of death was. But there

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Speaker 1: should be other tousehouth tigns, perhaps bruises or even pattern

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Speaker 1: injuries from leaning over the bathtub. So what happened. Obviously

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Speaker 1: the correct procedures were not followed at the time. Investigators

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Speaker 1: raced to the scene. Take a listen to our cut

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Speaker 1: thirty one. This is our friend Elizabeth Vargas Nightline at

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Speaker 1: least didn't really conduct much of an investigation at all.

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Speaker 1: They didn't collect any of the evidence, closed the book

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Speaker 1: on this case and ruled it a natural death. Michelle's

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Speaker 1: daughters were absolutely outraged that the police closed the case

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Speaker 1: so quickly on Michelle's death, and Alexis and Rachel and

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Speaker 1: Michelle's sister began their own investigation. And we went to

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Speaker 1: the Pleasant Girl police. We said, you know, we have

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Speaker 1: this new information, we know about a girlfriend now. They

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Speaker 1: took no notes. They acted like we were out of

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Speaker 1: our minds and talking with the investigator there Pleasant Girl,

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Speaker 1: they felt like this was all a natural caused kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. Could they have done more. They could have,

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Speaker 1: but I think the initial response was appropriate. I don't

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Speaker 1: when you have a victim state if anything happens to me,

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Speaker 1: he did it and then she ends up. Dad, No,

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Speaker 1: I don't think appropriate procedures were followed. Time stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Doctor Michelle Dupree, the medical examiner, was asked

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Speaker 1: to re examine the case. What happened, yes, exactly, and

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Speaker 1: so whenever would re examine a case, we basically start

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Speaker 1: over at the beginning and look at the evidence as

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Speaker 1: we find it. And again, there's no way this could

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Speaker 1: be an accident. Anytime someone is found I'm sorry, not

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Speaker 1: an accident, but there's no way this could be a

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Speaker 1: natural death because she was found in a bathtub. Maybe

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Speaker 1: she had a heart attack, but again, that toxicology report

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Speaker 1: is going to rule out any type of accident. Tell

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Speaker 1: me what was found in the toxicology report, to your understanding,

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Speaker 1: doctor dupre My understanding is again that she was found

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Speaker 1: over medicated. She was found with what we call a polypharmacy,

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Speaker 1: which is a number of medications. Oxycoda uncertainly is one

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Speaker 1: of those that is a narcotic that is tightly controlled.

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Speaker 1: And again, she had way too much in her system

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Speaker 1: of many different medicine. She was not taking the meds

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Speaker 1: herself connor Richards, her husband was given them. Not only

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Speaker 1: that he had actually insisted the operating surgeon add on

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Speaker 1: MADS for her a maths that would not normally have

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Speaker 1: been prescribed. Under these circumstances. She had basically a cocktail

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Speaker 1: of Mad's in her system. And it was only when

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Speaker 1: they were forced to look at toxicology did the medical

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Speaker 1: examiner realize how she was overdosed. Yeah, and this is

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Speaker 1: a really interesting aspect, and you have to wonder why

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Speaker 1: it took so long for them to find this. Something

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Speaker 1: that likely played a large role is just the credibility

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Speaker 1: or influence that Martin might have had, apparently being medically

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Speaker 1: trained himself and also being a governor appointed medical director.

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Speaker 1: There is thought that he influenced the original the original

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Speaker 1: autopsy report, and that that is why it wasn't as

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Speaker 1: in depth as it should have been. You say that

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Speaker 1: he was a government appointed medical worker. As a matter

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Speaker 1: of fact, he had been put in charge of a

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Speaker 1: public facility appointed by the governor, the medical director, but

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Speaker 1: all of course was not as it seems. Take a

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Speaker 1: listen to our friends at ABC cut thirty two. Doug

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Speaker 1: Whitney began investigating everything he did and uncovered a life

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Speaker 1: of lies. When he was in his early twenties, he

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Speaker 1: went to jail for check kiding. He was a convicted felon.

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Speaker 1: He was charged with forgery, fraud. Okay, I haven't take

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Speaker 1: a picture you. We basically found out that our entire

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Speaker 1: lives had been based and surrounded on lies, that everything

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Speaker 1: about our experience with our father was a lie. You've

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Speaker 1: played a part in destroying our whole family, Dad one.

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Speaker 1: Now okay, Hey, there's so many things to look at

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Speaker 1: right there. First of all, claiming he didn't have a mistress.

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Speaker 1: We all know that, Sally, and I'm going to circle

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Speaker 1: back to gypsy Will. It's his own words. But we're

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Speaker 1: also learning he had a long history of crime. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: a lot of resemblance here to the movie Catch Me

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Speaker 1: if you can in that. Really, when this got investigated,

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Speaker 1: his whole life got unraveled as a fraud, all the

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Speaker 1: way back to his transcripts for medical school being fraudulent

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Speaker 1: and him having taken somebody else's transcripts and pretended that

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Speaker 1: they were his. And so a lot of this came

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Speaker 1: to light and yeah, this goes way back. So even

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Speaker 1: just a few months after him and Michelle Alope, he

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Speaker 1: was serving a six months jail sentence for federal fraud

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Speaker 1: and forgery for writing fake checks. So really, going all

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Speaker 1: the way back to his early twenties, this man has

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Speaker 1: been perpetuating a lot of fraud. Connor Richard's joining US

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Speaker 1: reporter there in Utah argue that Martin McNeil was neither

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Speaker 1: a doctor nor a lawyer because he faked all of

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Speaker 1: his credentials to get into school. Yeah, that's right, and

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Speaker 1: it would be one would be hard pressed to argue

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Speaker 1: that he's a credible doctor or a lawyer because of

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Speaker 1: this up because as if all unraveled, it became clear

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Speaker 1: that he used falsified transcripts in order to get into

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Speaker 1: medical school, and then later and then later he used

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Speaker 1: the same transcripts or used that same path to take

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Speaker 1: his way into Brigham Young University law school. So by

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Speaker 1: using falsified transcripts to get in there, it really does

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Speaker 1: it really does not look good for him. You know

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Speaker 1: what's interesting, Doctor Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist. I imagine that

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Speaker 1: poor Michelle McNeill's family was thrilled that she was getting

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Speaker 1: a doctor and a lawyer all in one package. Little

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Speaker 1: did they know. How can one person manipulate not just

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Speaker 1: his wife, but his whole family into believing what he

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Speaker 1: wants him to believe. I mean, you just heard him saying,

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Speaker 1: I don't have a mistress, a mistress. I've never had

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Speaker 1: a mistress. I'm the victim here. Well, what we see

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Speaker 1: that's common with individuals like this that perpetrate these kinds

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Speaker 1: of frauds is that they have a lifetime of practice.

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Speaker 1: And if he faked things like credentials to get into

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Speaker 1: programs like to become a lawyer, to become a doctor,

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Speaker 1: then he became very skilled at a very young age. Now,

426
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 1: in psychology, we use something called the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual,

427
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: and so there's a number of criteria for a disorder

428
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: called antisocial personality disorder. And obviously I don't know what

429
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: Martin McNeill's psychopathology is, but a lot of what's being

430
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: described here on your show sounds very consistent with that.

431
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: They have disregard for right or wrong, persistent lying, deceitfulness,

432
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 1: their callous, cynical disrespectful of others, and a keys they

433
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: used charm or wit to manipulate others for personal gain

434
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: and personal pleasure, you know during her life. Michelle Summers

435
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: McNeill was on to her husband take a listen to

436
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: our cut twenty nine ABC. While he was sleeping, I

437
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: printed out all of his phone records and we found

438
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: this number that he'd been calling a lot, Gypsy Gillian Willis.

439
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: Gypsy Gillian Willis was a woman that Martin McNeill had

440
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: met online. Did you know he was married? I did.

441
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,479
Speaker 1: My father demanded that we have a funeral within just

442
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: a couple of days. Among the crowd was Gypsy Gillian Willis.

443
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: You crashed her funeral. I had felt sorry that I

444
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: had been involved with Barton inappropriately, and we'd come to

445
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 1: find out that my dad had been dating Gypsy for

446
00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: several years before my mom's death. So how are you

447
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: going to believe the daughters and the mistress or Martin

448
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: McNeil listened to more from Elizabeth Vargas. Martin had a

449
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: set plan right away that he was going to hire

450
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,959
Speaker 1: a nanny. Annie had said, there is going to be

451
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 1: an interview for a nanny, and that was the gipsyfsy.

452
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: Why did you move into the home, Martin told me

453
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: that he needed help with his younger children. Were you

454
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: still sleeping with him? I was, so, were you the

455
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: nanny or were you the girlfriend? I moved into help

456
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 1: with the kids when we had opportunity, I still slept

457
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: with him, So you were both. You want to look

458
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: at it like that. She walked into the house like

459
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 1: she owned the place. And then when I questioned my

460
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 1: dad and he said, oh, she's a guest in our home.

461
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: He wanted to make it known that it was either

462
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: gipsy or his children, and he chose the nanny. Yeah,

463
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: and the nanny. But you must have been shocked when

464
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: three months after she died he proposed marriage to you.

465
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: I wasn't shocked. It seemed like a natural progression. I

466
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 1: believe he loved his wife. He did sincerely mourn Michelle,

467
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: but she was gone, and I I didn't suspect anything unusual.

468
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: She was gone because he murdered her. Connor Richards, that's

469
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: really the tip of the iceber, What can you tell

470
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: me about claims he molested sexually molested his daughter. So

471
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: this is a claim that he was later found guilty of,

472
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: and so it apparently happened just shortly after his wife

473
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: had died, but his daughter Alexis and you had mentioned.

474
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: She says that she was sleeping and he came up

475
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: behind her and he fondled her and then also kissed

476
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: and licked her hand. And then when she was startled

477
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: by this, he said, oh my gosh, I'm sorry. I

478
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: thought she was your mother and so so. Yeah, she

479
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: reported that to police, but it wasn't until later, until

480
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: after he was convicted, that he was out. He was

481
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 1: also found guilty of that charge as well. I just

482
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: don't know what to make of this guy. Justin Boardman,

483
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: former Special Victims Unit. Have you ever seen anything like it?

484
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: I have, And it's kind of a common way that

485
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: perpetrators will get to a victim is certainly in the

486
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: middle of the night and claimed that they were sleepwalking

487
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: or having some sort of sleep issue to go about

488
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: and climb into bed with somebody and start fondling them.

489
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: It happens, sadly a lot. Take a listen to our

490
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: cut twenty one. This is a DETROI. We jury having

491
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: reviewed the evidence that test in the case, finding defendant

492
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 1: as to chunt one murder guilty. The shrieks of joy

493
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: came the instant the guilty verdict was read Martin McNeill's

494
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: daughter's sobbing, while their father remained expressionless. Afterwards, family members

495
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: spoke about their years long crusade to prove Martin McNeil

496
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: killed his wife. They're just so happy. You can't heard

497
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: anyone else for six years. We've put everything we have

498
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: into it, and we can finally take a deep breath

499
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 1: and put it behind us. The five man, three woman

500
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: jury found McNeill guilty of murder and obstruction of justice

501
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: after eleven hours of deliberation. Jurors sat through thirteen days

502
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: of testimony for more than five dozen witnesses. During the

503
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: month long trial, Martin McNeill murdered his wife Michelle. Crime

504
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. How to you, Connor Richards? Could

505
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: you describe the trial? It was so long and arduous.

506
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: How many witnesses were there. I don't know the exact

507
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: number of witnesses, Nancy, but you are right, it was

508
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: a really long and traumatic trial. The McNeill's had a

509
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: lot of children, and those children were there and they

510
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 1: were holding up pictures of their mother, and they were

511
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 1: there to get their father convicted. While the trial itself

512
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: was long, the discussion the deliberation between the jury was

513
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: actually relatively short, and they came back with that guilty

514
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: verdict and all the daughters were very happy about that.

515
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 1: But even now, many people, including Gypsy Willis, doesn't accept

516
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 1: the martyr conviction. Didn't she testify at trial? Connor, Yes,

517
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 1: she did. What was the crux of her testimony, Well,

518
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: she talked a lot about how she really loved she

519
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 1: really loved this man, and she believed him to be

520
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,240
Speaker 1: a good man, and she really testified to his character

521
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: and said that this was something that she should do.

522
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: And with all of her actions in terms of moving

523
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: into the house or showing up to the funeral, she

524
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: really tried to justify this and make it seem as

525
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: if there was no ill intent on her part, and

526
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 1: she really cared about these children and she was trying

527
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: to help them out now that their mother was so dell.

528
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 1: The defense had to argue something at trial. They only

529
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: call for witnesses, But what was their argument to the jury. Well,

530
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: the argument of the jury ultimately had to be that

531
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: the credibility of the witnesses was improper and that the doctor,

532
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: who was well known in the area would testify accurately

533
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: and truthfully. To what really transpired. But the original investigation,

534
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 1: the preliminary crime scene investigation, was clearly substandard. The witnesses

535
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:35,839
Speaker 1: were not separated, and the investigation didn't look into the

536
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: position of the body, which had lividity on the back

537
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 1: of the legs and on the buttocks, which clearly means

538
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: that she wasn't leaning over the bathtub when all of

539
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,399
Speaker 1: this transpired. Now, isn't it true that that is what

540
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: he Martin McNeill claimed that she was kind of leaning over,

541
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,720
Speaker 1: maybe washing her hair. That's exactly right. And I've handled

542
00:35:54,719 --> 00:36:00,320
Speaker 1: these bathtub drownings before and candidly, what probably happened is

543
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: they positioned her in a way that they thought and

544
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: I say they because it's not likely he did this

545
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 1: by himself. They positioned her in a way that it

546
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: appeared as though there was water in the tub and

547
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,399
Speaker 1: her head was submerged in the water. But of course,

548
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 1: when the daughter, the child, the little child finds the

549
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: mother and the neighbor comes in to help lift the

550
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: mother out of the bathtub, she's supine in the bathtub

551
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 1: with her head well above the water. So it was

552
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 1: critical for the doctor to say he drained the water

553
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: out of the tub because there was no water in

554
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: the tub. Sometimes when the body goes in, it moves

555
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: the drain cup and the result is the water all

556
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 1: drains out. And water is critical in these circumstances to

557
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: determine the actual manner of death because it's part of

558
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: the crime scene. Is the water caught, is it cold?

559
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 1: Is it filled with blood? All of those things are

560
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: critical the investigation. But of course the dock drained it all,

561
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: so all that evidence goes away along with throwing the

562
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: medications away, so you can't count the number of pills.

563
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 1: And finally, the elixir that was used. If you look

564
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 1: at the insert packaging on the Lord tab elixer, one

565
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,879
Speaker 1: of the warnings is it be careful, it can kill you.

566
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: So it was clever of the doctor to put that

567
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: in the request for the medications because that way he

568
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: could claim, hell, man, I don't know, she must have

569
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 1: taken some of that, and it clearly is package labeled

570
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 1: don't do that or it could kill you. Deil, why

571
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 1: are you so convinced that he did not perform CPR

572
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 1: on his wife. To perform proper CPR, you got to

573
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 1: have the body upon meaning flat face up, and you've

574
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: got to have some hard surface behind it. If she

575
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: was in the tub, scrunched in there with her head

576
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: under the fawcet, how can you perform CPR. The answer

577
00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 1: is you can't, and certainly any man to get this

578
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: woman out of the tubs. She wasn't that overweight and

579
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 1: you just pulled her by the legs until she's out

580
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 1: on the flat service and then perform CPR. But we

581
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: remember that phone call that came in initially, that phone call,

582
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: he said, I am instituting CPR, right, Well, how the

583
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 1: hell is er did? He's just lying, So you're saying

584
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 1: that he's telling nine one one she's in the tub

585
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:30,439
Speaker 1: and I'm performing CPR, Brett, which is impossible. Absolutely. That's why,

586
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, Nancy, those phone calls to nine one

587
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: one are so critical. That's why I hung up the

588
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 1: phone right after he spoke the words and the you know,

589
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: the dispatcher tried to keep her him on the phone,

590
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,359
Speaker 1: but he didn't want to do that. And think about this,

591
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 1: if you're performing CPR and your wife you love her,

592
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: He wanted to survive. Are you going to answer the

593
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: phone when nine one one calls back? I don't think so. No,

594
00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 1: you will not to you. Connor Richards, who is Doug Whity.

595
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: He's a Utah County He's a Utah County investigator, who's

596
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: really the one who, at the requests of Martin's daughters,

597
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,320
Speaker 1: is the one who really looked into this and started

598
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 1: digging things out. So he's the one, for example, who

599
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: found that it was Martin who that Martin had actually

600
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,800
Speaker 1: falsified his transcripts, and that's what unraveled all these things.

601
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 1: The other really interesting thing that he found was that

602
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,280
Speaker 1: Martin was actually a convicted felon and he had served

603
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 1: a jail sentence for forgery when he wrote fraudulent checks

604
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: when he was in his twenties. And so so this

605
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 1: is really where it all began, because then they were

606
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: able to convict Martin on these charges, and then that

607
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: was real that really snowballed into investigating the murder and

608
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:49,280
Speaker 1: uncovering this. Now it's not understanding that he had multiple

609
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 1: convictions that Michelle may not have known about. Were they

610
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 1: all stemming from the forged checks? Well, there were a

611
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 1: lot of really, there were a lot of things going

612
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: on here. So in two thousand, Michelle actually reported to

613
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: police that Martin had threatened to kill her and also

614
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 1: himself with a knife after he had gotten caught looking

615
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: at pornography. Okay, wait a minute, was that if we

616
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: end that was in two thousand, so that was that

617
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 1: was afterwards. But so I guess, sorry, I guess that

618
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: doesn't really answer your question. But there were more. That's okay,

619
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 1: go ahead and tell me about it anyway. Yeah, So

620
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: that's just one of the example of where just this

621
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: kind of behavior. One other one is he was also

622
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: he was also the head of a help of a

623
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 1: health center at BYU, and he was asked to resign

624
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 1: because of some allegations, including sexual harassment and unprofessional behavior.

625
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,439
Speaker 1: So as far as other other convictions, he certainly had

626
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: a history of things being reported to the police or

627
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 1: having to step down from positions because of inappropriate behavior

628
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,720
Speaker 1: or even illegal behavior. So it's a very long history

629
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 1: of misbehavior and convictions. I want to circle back to

630
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: the trial itself. Why do you believe del Carson that

631
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 1: Martin McNeill did not testify? Well? Of course, to have

632
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: him on the stand as a defense attorney would not

633
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 1: make any real sense because his personality of being a

634
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: sociopath would clearly be brought out by the prosecution, and key,

635
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,760
Speaker 1: as you know, is that if you get somebody angry

636
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 1: on the stand, which seems to be very achievable with

637
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: this particular killer, then of course you win the case

638
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 1: because he's going to reflect his total disregard for other

639
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: people and it would lead to an easy conviction. I

640
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: always try to talk my clients into not testifying a

641
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: trial if I believe there's not sufficient evidence to convict

642
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 1: on the face of the evidence that's been presented. It

643
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 1: does a dupree. How do you believe the daughter Alexis,

644
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 1: who had you been to medical school herself figured out

645
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: the original coroner's report was wrong. Probably Nancy because of

646
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 1: what her motherhood says, because of her medical knowledge. We

647
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 1: need simply look at the prescription with that that was provided.

648
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: It's it's gonna cost warning sounds, it's gonna get raise

649
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: rere slags, I mean oxycodon and some of the other

650
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:30,399
Speaker 1: things mixed together. They're narcotics, se sedatives. It's just too much.

651
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 1: Nobody in their right mind would do that. You know.

652
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 1: The plot really think is when we find out about

653
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: Martin McNeil's plan to ship one of his adopted daughters

654
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 1: back to the Ukraine, so gipsy Willis could assume her

655
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 1: identity explain that bizarre facet of this case, Connor Richards. So,

656
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,720
Speaker 1: Martin and Michelle had adopted a number of children, including

657
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 1: multiple daughters from Ukraine. The oldest of them was a

658
00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: girl named Gazelle, and after the death, investigators believe that

659
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 1: Martin had the plan to one have a family adopt

660
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 1: these other children. But then for Jaizille, he sent her

661
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 1: back to Ukraine on a plane and she was supposed

662
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: to spend there, spend two months there with her biological sister.

663
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 1: Well that's that two months stretched into a year, and

664
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: it became pretty clear that his plan was to leave

665
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: her there, and there are reports that she was living

666
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 1: there in pretty despicable conditions. She was in a single room,

667
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 1: sleeping on a bed with four or five other people.

668
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 1: She didn't have any sanitary conditions or anything like that. So,

669
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 1: really something horrible for this young girl to go through

670
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,279
Speaker 1: after being adopted by this family. How did the girl,

671
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 1: the little girl, end up getting saved. Well, so it

672
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 1: was really the family that got involved. So I believe

673
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: it was Michelle's sister who started investigating, and I believe

674
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:55,839
Speaker 1: it was her daughter who went down there and saw

675
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: these conditions that she was living in, and then it

676
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 1: all unveiled that the reason she was being sent away

677
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 1: is part of a plot for Gypsy to take on

678
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: her identity and get a new Social Security number, and

679
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: so it was when that plot unraveled that things turned

680
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 1: around for Jiselle. Why did Gypsy Willis made a new

681
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: Social Security number? She says that she had a lot

682
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 1: of outstanding tax debt and so it looks like it

683
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 1: was a plot for her to escape bad credit, and

684
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 1: so she would be able to take on this new

685
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 1: identity and kind of start a fresh life. She says

686
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 1: that she knew it was something that was illegal and

687
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 1: potentially not right as well, but she was just going

688
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 1: along with Martin and she was in love with him

689
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 1: and she trusted his judgment. So that's her side of

690
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 1: the story. Dale Carson, isn't it true that there were

691
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: two incidents where Michelle McNeil was overdosed. That's exactly right.

692
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: She was overdosed at first, and her daughter recognized this,

693
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 1: and then of course, most probably even though the toxicology

694
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: report reflects that they were subdoses in terms of her

695
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: potential death from taking on board those barbiturous and opioids.

696
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 1: She really was put in a position probably where she

697
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 1: was led to the already filled bathtub and simply drowned.

698
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: And what they failed to calculate was that the body

699
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 1: weight over the side of the tub would allow her

700
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 1: to slide into the tub and remain face up, which

701
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: is where she expired based on the lividity that was

702
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,280
Speaker 1: on the back of her legs and on her buttocks.

703
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:43,320
Speaker 1: That's where the blood pulls after the heart stops pumping.

704
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 1: So what do you know about the first time the

705
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 1: show was overdosed, Well, her daughter discovered it. She went

706
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 1: to the room and saw that she was just heavily sedated.

707
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 1: This was right after the operations, after the surgery, the

708
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 1: face lift, and she was obviously concerned. And that's when

709
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:05,399
Speaker 1: the mother said, look, I'm afraid that I'm being overdosed

710
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: by your father. Let me hold the pills so I

711
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 1: can physically feel them so that I know what I'm getting.

712
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 1: But of course she didn't recognize that there was an elixir,

713
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 1: which is a syrup. This involved in all of this,

714
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 1: and you can't feel a syrup, and certainly anything you'd

715
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 1: take on board by drinking could contain that, sirup I

716
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,760
Speaker 1: don't understand that to you, Doctor Deprive. Why are man's

717
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 1: given in an elixir? Basically because it's going to help

718
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: them be absorbed better without causing irritation to either the

719
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 1: intestinal or stomach lining. And then for the absorption reason,

720
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:47,720
Speaker 1: you may also want to have them be more time release,

721
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: which an elixer can help do. To you, Connor Richards,

722
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: why was Michelle's tub her actual bathtub brought into the

723
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,839
Speaker 1: court ram? So, yeah, prosecutors brought this in as a prop,

724
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: and there's pictures of it in there, and it's pretty

725
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: startling to see a big, round, oval bathtub in the

726
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:07,800
Speaker 1: middle of the courtroom. But the reason that that was

727
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 1: brought in because of what was talked about a little

728
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:14,280
Speaker 1: bit earlier, is that the position of how the position

729
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 1: that Michelle's body was in when she was found is

730
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 1: really something that played a large role, particularly because the

731
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,800
Speaker 1: way that she was found did not match up with

732
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 1: the story that Martin said. He said that he found

733
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 1: her when she was hunched over, so he said that

734
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 1: he found her hunched over in the bathtub with her

735
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 1: head submerged. But there are details that really contradict that,

736
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: including the account of the daughter who found her, who

737
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: said that she was lying in the tub, and then

738
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 1: there's other things. So he said, it's been mentioned that

739
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 1: he said that he tried performing CPR, but then when

740
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 1: medics came in, they performed CPR, she regurgitated water. And

741
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: so the idea is that that's not something that would

742
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: happen if he had already performed CPR. So the bathtub

743
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 1: was brought in as a prop to really just demonstrate,

744
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,280
Speaker 1: I think, to attack the credibility of Martin and show

745
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 1: and just demonstrate how important of her role that aspect

746
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 1: of this case played. So do you, doctor Michelle defree

747
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 1: the bathtub was significant. It was critical because doctor Martin

748
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 1: McNeill claims he comes in and she's hunched over the

749
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 1: tub with her head in the water or under the water.

750
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 1: The daughter Anna, the little girl who finds mommy, says,

751
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:34,800
Speaker 1: mommy's lying in the tub. The liver mortis, which is

752
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,320
Speaker 1: the settling of the blood in a dead body to

753
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 1: the lowest common denominator, reveals something different from her being

754
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:45,919
Speaker 1: dead hunched over the side the tub. Explained, yes, sense,

755
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: you're right that lever mortis is the settling of the

756
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: blood according to gravity. So the lowest part of the

757
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 1: body is going to contain the lever mortis or that

758
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 1: purple red discoloration. Again, depending on how long this has

759
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 1: gone on, that libra mortis will be fixed or not.

760
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,760
Speaker 1: And once that person is moved, if the libra mortis

761
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 1: is not fixed, in other words, it can change by

762
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: movement of the body. If it doesn't change, when we

763
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,359
Speaker 1: know that this person has been deceased for longer then

764
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,359
Speaker 1: maybe expected, because it is now fixed and will not move.

765
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 1: And also doctor Dupree, if he says he finds her

766
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 1: hunched over the side of the tub like you hang

767
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 1: your head over to wash your heir under the faucet,

768
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 1: is the way I imagine it. The blood would not

769
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: have settled on her back and her rear end and

770
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,280
Speaker 1: the back of her legs. The blood would be settled

771
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,359
Speaker 1: at the bottom of her knees from the knee down

772
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 1: the calf, because all the blood would go to the

773
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: lowest common spot. It would not be the way that

774
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,800
Speaker 1: it was found. The blood would not have settled the

775
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 1: way that it was found. That's right, Nancy. We have

776
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 1: to look at what the body is telling us and

777
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 1: wherever that libra mortis is that is where the lowest

778
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 1: spot was. That is how the body was positioned, and

779
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 1: we can position that body back to show where that

780
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 1: libra mortis is and determined exactly how that was. To

781
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 1: Connor Richards, I understand that the libra mortis was along

782
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: her back and rear in Is that correct? Yes? I

783
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 1: believe that is correct, Nancy and Connor. When the EMTs

784
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: got there, where was she? I believe she was found.

785
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 1: I believe they found to and that he was on

786
00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: the floor. I'm sorry, is that you, Dale? Yeah, it

787
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 1: is she was on the floor of the bathroom because

788
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 1: the neighbor had come over earlier. You're absolutely right. So,

789
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: Dale Carson, you are the master of courtroom props and

790
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: demonstrative evidence. Why do you believe they brought the actual

791
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 1: bathtub in front of the jury into the courtroom. You know,

792
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:56,399
Speaker 1: jurors love the actual props and and oftentimes we take

793
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:59,359
Speaker 1: the jury actually to the crown scene that the court

794
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,360
Speaker 1: will allow, so you want to see, get a feel

795
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 1: for what's going on, and candidly, her being found face

796
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:11,240
Speaker 1: up in the tub is critical to the lies told.

797
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:15,320
Speaker 1: Critical to prove the lies told by Martin the doctor

798
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 1: at the time of his initial interview. I mean clearly.

799
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 1: And another point is that if you perform active CPR,

800
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: lividity can't settle because the blood's still moving through the body.

801
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 1: So if this guy is really a physician and he's

802
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 1: performing CPR and she's only been in the tub for

803
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 1: a brief period of time, you shouldn't see any lividity

804
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 1: at all, at least initially, do you agree, Dot d Prey, Well,

805
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:48,720
Speaker 1: not necessarily, because lividity can actually actually begin when people

806
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 1: are still alive. But in a coma it doesn't happen often,

807
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 1: but it does happen. And so well, do you think

808
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 1: that happened here because I don't. No, I don't. But again,

809
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 1: lividity is going to to settle and it's going to

810
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:06,839
Speaker 1: become fixed after hours hours, So we're talking. We don't

811
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 1: know how long supposedly she was in the tub, but

812
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 1: does that make sense? What did it have time to settle?

813
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 1: You would have been in the tub from nine thirty

814
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 1: to eleven thirty, so that's whatever number of hours it is.

815
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 1: Is that sufficient time for livitity? Just said I think no,

816
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 1: it isn't. No no livity, No livity wants set in

817
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: two hours. Connor Richards was she dead on the scene

818
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 1: when EMTs got there. Yes, that is my understanding. Then

819
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 1: how has it done to dupri that she coughed at water? Well?

820
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:43,760
Speaker 1: That was that was really not because she was alive.

821
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:47,840
Speaker 1: That's simply because of the pressure um when she was

822
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 1: taken out and CPRY was started, um more started to

823
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 1: be performed. That's just pressure out of the lungs. Another

824
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 1: point here is if CPR has done correctly, oftentimes there

825
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 1: is bluez and there is also broken ribs associated with that,

826
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 1: and as a physician you would know that, and that's

827
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 1: very common, and I don't know that there was any

828
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 1: sounds of that at all. You know, I'm curious to

829
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:13,399
Speaker 1: doctor Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist in the end, after he's

830
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 1: conviited doctor Martin McNeil, if I should call him that

831
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 1: actually commit suicide behind bars? Why do you think he

832
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 1: did it? That is a real head scratcher, because people

833
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:28,760
Speaker 1: who have you know, these exhibit the kind of behavior

834
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 1: that he does. The you know, the charm, the manipulation.

835
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 1: They really like themselves and don't generally commit suicide, but

836
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 1: occasionally someone that might be hind narcissism psychopathy will if

837
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 1: they see no other way out. So if I don't

838
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 1: know how, you know he was in terms of appeals

839
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 1: and all that sort of thing. If he had come

840
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 1: to a place where he realized this is it for me.

841
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to be stuck in prison for the rest

842
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 1: of my life, then he might be able. He might

843
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 1: be able to bring himself to commit suicide, because that

844
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 1: would be the final way for him to take control

845
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:09,239
Speaker 1: of the situation. Dale Carson, how did he commit suicide ultimately, Well,

846
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 1: he'd already tried to do it on one occasion by

847
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 1: slitting his wrists, and later he snuck into the prison

848
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 1: grounds and had permission to be in the greenhouse, where

849
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:23,360
Speaker 1: he took some propane loose from his container and inhaled

850
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 1: it to the point that he died. Why did they

851
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:28,359
Speaker 1: let him in the greenhouse, Dale, Well, that I can't

852
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 1: tell you, but I'm glad they did. And with that note,

853
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,959
Speaker 1: I'm signing offen Goodbye, frid