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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Hey, what's up? And welcome to it could happen here.

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Speaker 3: I'm Andrew Siege, I'm Andrew's I'm on YouTube, and I'm

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Speaker 3: joined by James.

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Speaker 4: It's me.

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Speaker 3: It's nice to be back with you, Andrew once again.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Indeed, indeed in a time of poly crisis, unfortunately, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: the Hoesen crisis. People are pretty familiar with the lack

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Speaker 3: of affordability of hoes in the way that hosen has

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Speaker 3: been speculated upon, you know, the way that more and

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Speaker 3: more people are finance difficult to get something as simple

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Speaker 3: as shelter. Yeah, and it's particularly generational, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, Like I don't generally love generational discourse, but

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Speaker 4: it is a marked difference for our generation compared to

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Speaker 4: the previous generation in terms of Yeah, housing security.

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Speaker 3: The data bears it out in terms of the age

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Speaker 3: at which people of previous generations were able to get

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Speaker 3: house in versus you know what millennials and our gen

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Speaker 3: z are dealing with there housing is concerned. Yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 3: And then on top of that, we'll also lacking a

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Speaker 3: lot of public spaces, places to gather, places to reflect

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Speaker 3: the socialized game, to explore, to interact, to discuss. Land

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Speaker 3: and housing and social spaces are really what at the

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Speaker 3: heart of human survival. You know, we speak of the

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Speaker 3: hearth as in that space where you know, humans were gathering. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but unfortunately that that ownership of that space has been

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Speaker 3: concentrated in hands of a few people, you know, ritually

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Speaker 3: EAT's and corporations, estate, and some cases still literal aristocracies. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm sure you're you're very much familiar with that.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, just thinking about like the land I grew

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Speaker 4: up on for people who were not privy to Andrew

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Speaker 4: and I talking before the show. I just spent some

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Speaker 4: time with the gwitch in people like in the very

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Speaker 4: north of Alaska there, just in the sub Arctic, and

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Speaker 4: someone was asking me like about like how I related

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Speaker 4: to my ancestral land. I was thinking about it, Like,

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Speaker 4: the village I grew up in was entirely owned by

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Speaker 4: one family. They owned our house, in every other house,

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Speaker 4: and my dad worked for them, and so did almost

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Speaker 4: everyone else who lived there. Like, wow, an extremely feudal relationship.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's unfortunately the experience of a lot of people

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Speaker 3: through human history, or the extra experience of landlessness or homelessness. Well,

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Speaker 3: homelessness is relatively recent, yeah, all things considered, but or

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Speaker 3: paying extortion in rents, which a lot of people unfortunately

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Speaker 3: would have experienced throughout that feuderal period into a capitalism.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 3: But the thing is, for as long as humans have

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Speaker 3: been humans, long before the states existed, and long after

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Speaker 3: the states existed, people are going to stay where they

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Speaker 3: want to stay. They're going to be where they want

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Speaker 3: to be, right and at those take a couple all

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Speaker 3: these laws and restrictions and property rights, all these things

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Speaker 3: and criminalize a very natural human inclination, people are still

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Speaker 3: going to do it right. And that's thing that people

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Speaker 3: do is now known as squatting. Right, But it wasn't

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Speaker 3: always so chastised and criminalized with that terminology before it

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Speaker 3: was just you know, you find a piece of land,

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Speaker 3: nobody else is living there, you go in and use that

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Speaker 3: piece of land to survive. So today we'll be talking

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Speaker 3: about issues with land ownership, looking into its history as

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Speaker 3: a resistance practice in England, and seeing where a politicized

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Speaker 3: approach to squadron could take us in the future. Oh cool,

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Speaker 3: Crime thinks article on squatron was really helpful for this,

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Speaker 3: so I'll link it in the show notes. Land ownership

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Speaker 3: and governance are inextricably linked. Private property and land then

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Speaker 3: the mooge out of peaceful agreements, but violence, wars of conquest, colonialism, slavery,

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Speaker 3: and steed repression have been the true foundation of these

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Speaker 3: now considered noble and official property titles. What we call

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Speaker 3: ownership today is just violence legitimized by law, and it

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Speaker 3: follows a very similar structure whether you're talking about feudalism

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Speaker 3: and empire, land inclosure, colonization. Your start of the violence,

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Speaker 3: it becomes officialized and then rent is extracted. This is

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Speaker 3: not something that people took line down. Of course, people

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Speaker 3: have long resisted it, you know, But this is why

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Speaker 3: the government responds with the police and the armies to

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Speaker 3: protect the landlords, and the people have criticized and have

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Speaker 3: called out these practices. Thinkers like Ricardo Flores Margon and

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Speaker 3: Alexander Berkmann, peterco Potkin mcunan. All of these hammered home

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Speaker 3: the point of the absurdity at the heart of land ownership,

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Speaker 3: the idea that some of they could just pull up somewhere,

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Speaker 3: claim an area of land as theirs, and back it

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Speaker 3: by soldiers and pieces of paper. Now, anarchists not in

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Speaker 3: the business of fixating on just one system of domination

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Speaker 3: or the other, because they're very connected. You know, landlords

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Speaker 3: and governments and all the other authorities contribute to the

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Speaker 3: system of domination that we all live under. Assander's core

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Speaker 3: rights in anarchists squat in and land use. In the West,

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Speaker 3: land ownership and government use exploitation and manipulation in a

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Speaker 3: similar manner. Where a landowner builds a fence, the government erects.

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Speaker 3: Where land owner charges rent, a government levies taxes. Were

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Speaker 3: landowner advertises a vacant house sas not to waste it

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Speaker 3: as an income producer. In property, a government encourages migration

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Speaker 3: to those of its territories which are not producing adequate revenue.

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Speaker 3: We are landowner evict a tenant, a government wages war

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Speaker 3: against the population. Right now, in the United States, as

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Speaker 3: we can see, the government is asian war not only

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Speaker 3: against its indigenous population, its black population, but also it's

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Speaker 3: migrant population and a few other populations. The list unfortunately

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Speaker 3: goes on.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like the two are so tied, right that, Like

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Speaker 4: in many parts of the United Kingdom, like as it

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Speaker 4: was moving towards, like before we had a universal franchise

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Speaker 4: right where people could vote if it were citizens, and

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Speaker 4: over a certain age, they had a property owner franchise right,

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Speaker 4: like if you owned land, you could vote, and if

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Speaker 4: you didn't then you.

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Speaker 3: Couldn't landed voting. Yes, yeah, and a sense that is

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Speaker 3: still reflected in the way that the government operates today.

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Speaker 3: You know, the landowners, the capitalists, they still have far

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Speaker 3: outsized influence with anyone else, considering the laws and the

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Speaker 3: policies that our governments carry out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, And this is really get into the heart of it,

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Speaker 3: because you know, we may have had the abolition of

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Speaker 3: slavery and the abolition of selfdom, but in no way

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Speaker 3: that the formal abolition of those things end exploitation at all.

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Speaker 3: It has continued in new and old forms. You know,

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Speaker 3: without the police and armies and laws propping them up,

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Speaker 3: private property would collapse. But those things still exist, and

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Speaker 3: it is through those things that the power to exclude, extract,

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Speaker 3: and dominate continues throughout our society and continues to uphold

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Speaker 3: violence throughout her society. You know, slavery may have been

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Speaker 3: formally abolished, but we still find it in the prison system.

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Speaker 3: So if they may have been formally abolished, but we

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Speaker 3: still find it in slightly different forms with debt and

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Speaker 3: the way that people are tied on by debt, and

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Speaker 3: as long as that principle of extraction and exploitation and

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Speaker 3: and rent is not dealt with, we will continue to

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Speaker 3: see new forms and old forms bringing up.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a moment,

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Speaker 5: right and.

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Speaker 3: See that Maybe you know, the problem is just the

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Speaker 3: violence of its origins, the problem with land ownership and property.

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Speaker 3: If it just came from violent origins and no other

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Speaker 3: violence continued, maybe it could be excused. Maybe we could say, okay,

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Speaker 3: well that's in the past and we can do stuff

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Speaker 3: about that, but we could leave the system as it is.

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Speaker 3: But the violence didn't stop with the way that the

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Speaker 3: system originated. The violence continues, you know, as and as

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Speaker 3: Core notes called ownership is enforced through eviction. You know,

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Speaker 3: families are thrown out of homes, squatters beaten back by police,

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Speaker 3: villagers raised to expand mining operations, et cetera. Yeah, and

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Speaker 3: then these economic theft and cultural destruction involved as well,

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Speaker 3: you know, because communities are uprooted and digest traditions are severed,

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Speaker 3: neighborhood cultures getting raised by gentrification. And then all this

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Speaker 3: dispossession drives unemployment because without access to land, people are

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Speaker 3: forced into wage labor on the terms of capitalists. This

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Speaker 3: is really how that rapid period of industrialization got started,

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Speaker 3: you know, with the enclosure of the commons.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just thinking about that. With the folks are

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Speaker 4: with with right there. Their lifestyle is to hunt caribou.

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Speaker 4: That is how they've lived for twenty thousand years. They

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Speaker 4: also fish for salmon, but there are still some there

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Speaker 4: are a fewer salmon due to climate change and the

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Speaker 4: downstream effects of that. Right, But like they have their

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Speaker 4: own land, a large portion of land. But it's the

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Speaker 4: fact that someone in this case a Trump administration, could

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Speaker 4: lease oil rights in other land which would directly impact

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Speaker 4: their land. Because in this case, the Caribou can't carve

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Speaker 4: if there are oil wells where they want to have

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Speaker 4: their carves, right yeah. And so like it's not just

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Speaker 4: that them having some land of their own does not

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Speaker 4: provide a solution to the issue, which is that people can,

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Speaker 4: under our current system own exploit and destroy a resource

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Speaker 4: that should be common.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it really highlights the absurd notion that you

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Speaker 3: can just cut up land, right, yeah, exactly, but you

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Speaker 3: can separate it by by boundaries and that its self

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Speaker 3: contained and that we all the land and wars on

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Speaker 3: the earth is connected, yeah, through all the cycles and systems.

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Speaker 3: There's one big biosphere. Right.

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Speaker 4: The damage done in one place will have an impact

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Speaker 4: on another place. And I mean that's so very obvious

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Speaker 4: to most of us now, but that our system of

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Speaker 4: land ownership ignores that, pretend it doesn't happen, right yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Instead, we're upholding this ridiculous notion that you can

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Speaker 3: maintain exclusive lordship, literal land lordship over a couple of

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Speaker 3: acres of property and just do whatever you want with

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Speaker 3: it because it's under your name.

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Speaker 4: Right yeah, And that's that's your problem, because it's your land,

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Speaker 4: and it's ludicrous, it's completely ridiculous to make that claim.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And on top of all of these consequences, you know,

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Speaker 3: we're also dealing with poverty and hunger because when people

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Speaker 3: are producing lots of food, rent and mortgages continue to

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Speaker 3: keep people in a permanent state of paying just to exist.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Right, And then this concentrated ownership of land and of

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Speaker 3: property produces inefficient production and environmental degradation because property ends

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Speaker 3: upsitting idle or was used to speculate, even though millions

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Speaker 3: of people are in need of that land are starving

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Speaker 3: as a result of lack of access to that land.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Also, because so much land gets traded around as assets,

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Speaker 3: as property, rather than it being what it is, which

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Speaker 3: is our commonwealth, there's no need for the owner at

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Speaker 3: the point in time to really care about, you know,

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Speaker 3: the quality of the soil, the impact on the ecosystems.

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Speaker 3: They don't have to. All they're concerning is their only

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Speaker 3: need is to concern themselves with profit.

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Speaker 4: Right, Like, it's an asset to be traded, not a

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Speaker 4: thing that has inherent value and should be protected not

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Speaker 4: just because of its economic value, but because it's all

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Speaker 4: that we can leave future generations.

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Speaker 3: Right exactly, And I mean With all these issues of

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Speaker 3: the land in mind, I think we can talk now

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Speaker 3: about how people have resisted, particularly in England. Yeah, which

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Speaker 3: is really why I want to talk to you in

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Speaker 3: particular with this episode.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, I'm excited to hear which which particular ifing

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Speaker 4: you want to talk about.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the story can begin in the first century, yeah, right,

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Speaker 3: with the British tribes resisting the expansion of the Roman Empire.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: We could also speak about the Diggers of the seventeenth

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Speaker 3: century in England in massacred for trying to reclaim common Land.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: England has a very long history of land struggles.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely, and it's completely or it's not lost to

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Speaker 4: us now people have reclaimed, especially that the diggers, right,

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Speaker 4: but there are still commons to an extent, but they're

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Speaker 4: nothing like what they were, right, Like, you can go

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Speaker 4: to Clapham Common and just get great as a sheep

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Speaker 4: if you wanted to. And it's really sad that we've

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Speaker 4: lost that. We've completely as a nation like accepted that

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Speaker 4: land is the thing that people can only shouldn't just

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Speaker 4: be for everyone.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I kind of see how that would

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Speaker 3: get to the extent that it did. Because you know,

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Speaker 3: it was the capital of the British Empire and in

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Speaker 3: many wes, the British Isles was the laboratory where that

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Speaker 3: sort of experimentation with the control of people and land

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Speaker 3: got started and was then able to expand elsewhere.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, very much. So yeah.

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Speaker 3: So, I mean, there's a long timeline that we could

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Speaker 3: go through, but I really want to focus on the

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Speaker 3: all the ways the people have been squatting in England

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Speaker 3: over the twentieth century. You know, after the Second World

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Speaker 3: War it's no surprise anyone that Britain was going through it.

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Speaker 3: Whole neighborhoods were flattened, housing stock was in ruins, and

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Speaker 3: for the six years while the bombs were fallen, not

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Speaker 3: a single new home was built. So people took matters

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Speaker 3: into their own hands. You know. Across the country, families

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Speaker 3: and veterans began to squat because they came home from

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Speaker 3: the war and they had nowhere to live. In Brighton,

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Speaker 3: a group of ex servicemen call themselves Virgilantes, led by

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Speaker 3: the legendary Harry Cowley, started cracking houses for families. The

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Speaker 3: spirit of it eventually spread like wildfire and abandoned army

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Speaker 3: camps which were once beent for miolition soon became makeshift neighborhoods.

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Speaker 3: By nineteen forty six, over forty five thousand people were

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Speaker 3: squatted in more than a thousand locations, and I mean

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Speaker 3: the government was concerned this could only lead to anarchy,

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Speaker 3: but faced with tens of thousands of people who had

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Speaker 3: self frehoused, the state didn't really have any choice but

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Speaker 3: to step back, right, you know, direct actions solved an

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Speaker 3: issue that their bureaucracy couldn't solve, and the pr of

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Speaker 3: kicking out a bunch of veterans from homes was not

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Speaker 3: a line they seemed willing to cross at that point

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Speaker 3: in time. Was times changed, but yeah.

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Speaker 4: They wouldn't have any fear of doing that.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: It is only English that were squat in in the UK.

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Speaker 3: You know, you also had Bangladeshi immigrants that end up

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Speaker 3: coming into the UK, particularly around the nineteen seventies, and

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Speaker 3: the issue was that single men couldn't get council housing

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Speaker 3: unless they had a family, but they could bring their

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Speaker 3: families over into the UK without housing, so it's like

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Speaker 3: a cash twenty two. They had all these rows of

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Speaker 3: council flats sitting empty, rotten, and young men who wanted

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Speaker 3: to bring their families over, can't bring their families over,

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Speaker 3: can't get housing, what are they gonna do? They end

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Speaker 3: up squatting. Right, Organizers like Terry Fitzpatrick, working with groups

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Speaker 3: like Race Today and later the Bengali House and Action Group,

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Speaker 3: opened up derelict blocks to Bengali families. Pelham House, for instance,

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Speaker 3: which was slated for demolition, was transformed into homes for

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Speaker 3: three hundred people by the end of nineteen seventy six.

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Speaker 3: Over one thousand Bangladeshis ended up living in East End

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Speaker 3: squads during that period, and eventually, through that taking that

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Speaker 3: full step of direct action, they won. By the early

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighties, the council caved, rehoused the squatters locally and

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Speaker 3: they ended up getting to live right where they wanted

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Speaker 3: to live. But unfortunately, as you might expect, this came

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Speaker 3: with racist violence. In nineteen seventy eight, altub Ali was

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Speaker 3: stabbed to death by three skinheads in Whitechapel and there's

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Speaker 3: now a park that was renamed in his memory, where

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Speaker 3: the history of his people can be remembered and live on.

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Speaker 3: Beyond the English Sandi Bangladeshi immigrants, you also had another

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Speaker 3: marginalized group that took on the tactic of squatter in Brixton.

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Speaker 3: The Gay Liberation Front took over houses along Rilton Road

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Speaker 3: and Mile Road, creating a network of communal homes which

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Speaker 3: shared the gardens, and as you can imagine in the seventies,

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Speaker 3: eighties and nineties, you know, this was really a refuge,

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Speaker 3: you know, for queer people dealing with isolation and hostility

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Speaker 3: from their families, from their communities. These squats ended up

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Speaker 3: becoming places where they can find love and solidarity and

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Speaker 3: theater and radical politics. Raylton Road was also home to

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Speaker 3: black radicalism and black radicals squat in in that territory.

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Speaker 3: Ol of Morris and Liz Obi's squatted in the nineteen

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Speaker 3: seventies and resisted multiple eviction attempts and their space evolved

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Speaker 3: into Sabah Bookshop and later the anarchist one two one Center,

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Speaker 3: which lasted until nineteen ninety nine. Now, this intersection of

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Speaker 3: black queer and squatron created Brixton's reputation as a frontline

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Speaker 3: of resistance police harassment, racist violence, and neglect would boil

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Speaker 3: over into days of rioting in Brixton in nineteen eighty one,

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Speaker 3: and amidst that chaos, the Gay squats of Realton threw

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Speaker 3: open their doors, even dragon tables and chairs into the

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Speaker 3: streets for a kind of riot party, a mix of

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Speaker 3: drag and defiance. And through all this these squats allow

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Speaker 3: people to survive. They became places where people could experiment

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Speaker 3: with alternative living, even had some people declaring independence. There's

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Speaker 3: a space in West London called Frestonia which is sued

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Speaker 3: to own stamps and had a two year old as

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Speaker 3: Minister of Education. Yeah, and then you had other squads

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Speaker 3: ended up becoming seeds for future cooperatives and social centers

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Speaker 3: and even some businesses for this goal and age of

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Speaker 3: squat and kind of came into a decline by the

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Speaker 3: nineties and two thousand sons gentrification and new laws had

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Speaker 3: to tighten the screws. You know, streets like Barrington Square

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Speaker 3: or Saint Agnes's Place which were once thriving squatted communities

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Speaker 3: were cleared up. You know, the law was changed to

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Speaker 3: make could unquote adverse possession harder, so long term squatters

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Speaker 3: could no longer as easily claim ownership. And then sitting

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Speaker 3: councils like Lambeth Council began selling off properties that it

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Speaker 3: had ignored for decades. Evicting people who have been living

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Speaker 3: there for decades, raising families.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess post Thatcher, like when they could sell

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Speaker 4: off the council houses like that massively contributed to the

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Speaker 4: decline of working class communities, right, and then Britain went

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Speaker 4: through this extreme neoliberal turn in the late nineties with

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Speaker 4: like New Labor and Labour's entire thing came to be

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Speaker 4: punching down on the young people in the working class.

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Speaker 4: So like it lines up with our general political.

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Speaker 1: Like that.

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Speaker 4: I was a teenager at that time, right, I remember

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Speaker 4: how bleak it felt to be, like all the time

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Speaker 4: getting this like oh cool britann you know, you know,

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Speaker 4: like Britain is having its like renaissance as this like

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Speaker 4: like like outside of empire, like as a cultural capital

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Speaker 4: or whatever. Meanwhile people are struggling to get by and

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Speaker 4: people fighting it hard to put food on their table.

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Speaker 4: It was just such a I mean, looking back, it

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Speaker 4: was the way things were going to be for the

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Speaker 4: rest of my life, at least up to now, I guess.

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Speaker 4: But at the time I remember it being such a

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Speaker 4: jarring experience.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it's quite an interesting quote unquote end of history, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, right, yeah, it's just the the end of caring.

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Speaker 4: Like it was just such a yeah to be to

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Speaker 4: be told that we'd like perfected human existence. Meanwhile, racialized

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Speaker 4: violence was on the increase, right, Like people were struggling.

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Speaker 4: We like had become more connected and aware of each

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Speaker 4: other struggles. Like we could see people around the world,

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Speaker 4: not just in the UK struggling, right. We saw the

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Speaker 4: communities that like my parents grew up in, just gut

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Speaker 4: it by the withdrawal of the failure of the industries

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Speaker 4: that were there before. The whole town's with like no

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Speaker 4: reason for existing anymore. And then to come on top

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Speaker 4: of that and have like, oh yeah, but it will

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Speaker 4: cost you more just to exist in this town which

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Speaker 4: is shit now and there's nothing to do, but we're

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Speaker 4: going to use all the power of the state to

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Speaker 4: try and extract every penny that you have.

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Speaker 3: Lets just squeeze everything out of you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, just a bleak vision going home now. I just

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Speaker 4: see the continuation of that decline line of like some

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Speaker 4: of those towns you know where there's no particular reason

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Speaker 4: for people to live there, and it's where they're from

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Speaker 4: and it's where their community is. But it's getting harder

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Speaker 4: and harder for them to live there. And you know,

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Speaker 4: the industries that used to at least give people a

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Speaker 4: chance to like have a dignified life there are now gone.

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Speaker 4: Get the ability of land laws to extract you know,

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Speaker 4: mega landlords now right, These giant corporations building these generic

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Speaker 4: homes all over the UK. It's still very much there,

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Speaker 4: and the state has doubled down on supporting them and

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Speaker 4: completely refuse to support its own people.

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Speaker 3: Yep, in London, as and else where, the state and

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Speaker 3: the capitalist market of hand in hand to really eraase

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Speaker 3: our autonomy, our independence, our ability to live and to value. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know, ivan as places like Berlin and Amsterdam and

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Speaker 3: Copenhagen had some leaps forward where Squadron was concerned, you know,

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Speaker 3: legalized housing cooperatives and that sort of thing. Particularly in London,

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Speaker 3: that was the opposite of the case. You know, things

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Speaker 3: got harder.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Like Britain led the charge in like this kind

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Speaker 4: of particularly cruel and callous neoliberalism right from the from

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Speaker 4: the nineties to today, like with absolutely no concern for

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Speaker 4: the well being of its people. Even Yeah, you would

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Speaker 4: see it going to continental Europe, you know, compared to

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Speaker 4: living in Barcelona, which I did later, like squad still existed.

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Speaker 4: People economically things were equally dire, right, if not worse.

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Speaker 4: Spain had a really rough time as fifty off two

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Speaker 4: thousand and eight, but like the communities hadn't been quite

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Speaker 4: so destroyed by the state as they were in many

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Speaker 4: areas of the UK.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I don't want to paint a

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Speaker 3: completely dark picture of London, right because there is still

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Speaker 3: and I can struggle, there's still radical social centers. They're

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Speaker 3: still yeah, yeah, squat, and I mean some squads end

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Speaker 3: up being temporary, you know, short lived social spaces and centers.

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Speaker 3: Speceis to help organize or to protest or to you know,

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Speaker 3: create comment culture.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, like it's not Yeah, I mean I've made

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Speaker 4: London sound like some kind of like blade renal thing,

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Speaker 4: which is not by any mean that I've not spent

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Speaker 4: a great deal of my life in London. It's too

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Speaker 4: much city for me, that's fair. But I do, like

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Speaker 4: I enjoy visiting friends and their projects there and that

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Speaker 4: kind of thing. And I think even post COVID there's

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Speaker 4: been some resurgence. It's difficult. I don't want to suggest

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Speaker 4: that things are not still extremely difficult for people trying

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Speaker 4: to make it ends to meet because they are. But

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Speaker 4: like people are aware of the concept of mutual aid

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Speaker 4: who may not have been before, and that's been good. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: there's still our squad to struggle. There is still people

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Speaker 4: fighting very hard to like live a dignified life and

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Speaker 4: secure that for other people as well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and that's that's really what I want to highlight.

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Speaker 3: You know that what Squadron represents really is you know,

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Speaker 3: you know, both a struggle for necessity but also an

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Speaker 3: example of where I imagination can take us. You know,

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Speaker 3: our resistance does not have to take on the same

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Speaker 3: old forms of protests and to devoid per see. Right,

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Speaker 3: there are things that we can do as ordinary people,

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Speaker 3: whether we're black, whether we're gay, whether we're a Bangladesha immigrant,

434
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 3: a veteran, as an ordinary person, you could you can

435
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 3: also you know, take on the right action to create homes,

436
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 3: resist racism, build communities and fight the state.

437
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 4: Yeah. Like I think about a lot in Greece, right

438
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 4: where anarchists have squatted places that were built for like

439
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 4: the era when people could come from northern Europe to

440
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 4: Southern Europe to spend their money and then avoid the winter.

441
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 4: And since you know, general economic decline that doesn't happen

442
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 4: as much. And now people have squatted those hotels to

443
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 4: allow migrants a dignified place to live, right, Yeah, that's

444
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 4: it's a really beautiful project. It's envisioning another world literally

445
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 4: in the ruins of the old world exactly. I think

446
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 4: it's a really beautiful thing that people do to you know,

447
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,439
Speaker 4: take that action to address not just to protest something,

448
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 4: but to say, like the system which deprives people of

449
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 4: even a safe place to live, even the dignity of

450
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 4: being able to sleep in it under a roof at night, Like,

451
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 4: we are going to take action that strikes at the

452
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 4: roots of that to ensure that we give others that

453
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 4: the dignity that they deserve. And that's really special.

454
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:53,880
Speaker 3: Agreed, Agreed. And I mean I don't want to romanticize

455
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 3: squat in as you know, just a easy way of life.

456
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 3: It certainly is not. But to a quote crime think

457
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 3: the lesson of history is that in times of hows

458
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:10,679
Speaker 3: in deprivation, people squat the empty is the fact that

459
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 3: this has been made illegal. There's not blind people to

460
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 3: the empty buildings or to the use of squat and

461
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 3: as a tactic, the crack speaker in Amsterdam East promotes

462
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 3: the slogan what neat mag khan knogsteats what is not

463
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 3: allowed is still possible forgive my terrible Dutch.

464
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 4: Yeah mine's not much better. Yeah, I like that slogan

465
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 4: a lot. Like I think the issue of homelessness in

466
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 4: the United States in particular is something that like I

467
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,679
Speaker 4: think about a lot because I travel a lot. I

468
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 4: remember sitting in a cafe in Kurdistan and i'd just

469
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 4: been I was outside of just walking around, and some

470
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 4: people invite me to join their dominoes game. So I

471
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 4: was playing dominoes, you know, like practicing my terrible Kurdish,

472
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 4: and these guys were asking me like is it true

473
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 4: that like people, and like they were especially interested in,

474
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 4: like the veterans who have been US soldiers, like sleep

475
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 4: on the street in America, And I was like, yeah,

476
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 4: that's the thing, like and they're like, why, what's the

477
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 4: deal with that. I know the answer is that we

478
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 4: have enough houses for everyone, but we've just treated them

479
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 4: as a commodity to exchange. Right, We've been told that

480
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 4: people can't live there, even though there's space for them

481
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 4: to live, and even though it's actively hurting them living

482
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 4: on the street. Right, it's such a condemnation of the

483
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 4: situation we're in as a society in need.

484
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 3: It is, what does the future look like? You know,

485
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 3: none of us can really know. Yeah, but maybe we

486
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 3: can sketch some outlines of how we can approach lanues differently.

487
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 3: We could look to the past, and that's common traditions

488
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 3: of the past as inspiration for what might return. And

489
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 3: we could look to our own imagination of what the

490
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 3: future can look like as we refuse domination. We can squat,

491
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 3: of course, to show the cracks in this concept of property.

492
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 3: You know, we can collective eze and collectively organize spaces

493
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 3: for farming or production. You know, we can really, really

494
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 3: could do any number of things. I think the guidance

495
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 3: thread there has to be equity. Yeah, you know, it

496
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 3: has to be recognition that nobody has a right to land.

497
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 3: They don't use that absentee landlordism is something utterly absurd

498
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 3: and can be rejected out right. I think we can

499
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 3: also consider the non human in our approach to land

500
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 3: in the future, you know, considering the the rights and

501
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 3: responsibilities we have toward animals and plants that live in

502
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 3: spaces that you know, should have their own existence beyond

503
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 3: human utility. There will always be conflicts about how we

504
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 3: can use these spaces and also how we might resolve

505
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 3: these disputes. But I think it is clear that whereever

506
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 3: there's somebody who attempts to monopolize land by force, we

507
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 3: can respond adequately. I think the tactic of squatn is

508
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 3: one small, unfinished but necessary step towards a future where

509
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 3: we reject property, where land is shared, where domination is abolished,

510
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 3: where we as a human community and as a living community,

511
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 3: can free decide together how we live on this earth.

512
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 3: We'll just have to see that's it for me or

513
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,959
Speaker 3: power to all the people this has When it can

514
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 3: happen here, I'm Andressage. That is James Stout and peace.

515
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 7: Hello everyone, and welcome to it could happen here. My

516
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 7: name is Dana al Kurd, and I'm a writer, analyst,

517
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 7: and researcher of Palestinian and Arab politics. I'm an associate

518
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 7: professor of political science and a senior non resident fellow

519
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 7: at the Arab Center Washington. I'm recording this on October nineteenth,

520
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 7: twenty twenty five. Negotiators from a number of countries and

521
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 7: Israel were in Cairo recently discussing the next phase of

522
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 7: the ceasefire agreement between Hamas and Israel. Hamas has since

523
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 7: released all remaining Israeli hostages, as well as the bodies

524
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 7: of those who were killed, and Israel has withdrawn from

525
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 7: certain parts of the Gaza strip and started to release

526
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 7: political prisoners as well as the bodies of Palestinians who

527
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 7: have been killed after they were detained since October seventh.

528
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 7: Some of the testimonies from these prisoners is just incredibly

529
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 7: heart to stomach. The degree of the humanization that's been

530
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 7: allowed to take place in these Israeli prisons, the torture

531
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 7: and abuse that they faced is truly truly harrowing. Some

532
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 7: of the Palestinian bodies that have been released are mutilated

533
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 7: with extreme signs of torture. Some were released blindfolded and cuffed,

534
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 7: returned with a noose around their neck. Greta Tunberg, who

535
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 7: was on the flotilla recently trying to break the siege

536
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 7: of Gaza, just also returned from Israeli prison where she

537
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 7: was also abused and stripped and mistreated. She said in

538
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 7: a recent interview, if they do this to a white

539
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 7: person with a Swedish passport. We can only imagine what

540
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 7: they do to Palestinians. And of course we are seeing

541
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 7: this play out before our eyes. In a fair and

542
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 7: just world where international law meant something, there would be

543
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 7: consequences for this. Instead, today I want to talk about

544
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 7: this plan that's been proposed by the Trump administration, the

545
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 7: twenty point piece plan for Gaza. Reportedly, ex UK Prime

546
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 7: Minister Tony Blair has been consulting with Trump and his

547
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 7: son in law slash advisor Jared Kushner for some time

548
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 7: hashing this plan out. We'll get back to him in

549
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 7: a bit, as he's quite the character. This plan, as

550
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 7: the name suggests, has twenty points, but it's a little

551
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 7: light on details. It outlines the return of remaining Israel

552
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 7: hostages very quickly, within seventy two hours. It says the

553
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 7: Gaza strip needs to be quote demilitarized. It talks about

554
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 7: the creation of an international stabilization force, an international security

555
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 7: force to operate on the ground in Gaza with the

556
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 7: eventual withdrawal of Israeli troops, but within a buffer zone,

557
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 7: and this force would consist of soldiers from other countries.

558
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 7: It also talks about the formation of a quote technocratic

559
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 7: a political Palestinian temporary government to run the Gaza Strip

560
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 7: territory until the peace process is concluded. But this temporary

561
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 7: Palestinian government would only be allowed to engage in service provision,

562
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 7: nothing more. That government would also be overseen by a

563
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 7: quote Board of Peace run by Trump himself, his pal

564
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 7: Tony Blair, and other yet unspecified members. There is some

565
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 7: language on the economic development of a quote new Gaza,

566
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 7: and some discussion of initiatives to promote tolerance, essentially to

567
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 7: deradicalize Palestinians. Notably, the plan does not endorse ethnic cleansing

568
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 7: of Palestinians from Gaza, which was wildly a serious thing

569
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 7: on the table for a few months that Trump endorsed,

570
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 7: but what it does say is still pretty insidious. Essentially,

571
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 7: the plan says that a possible pathway to Palestinian self

572
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 7: determination and statehood is conditioned on advances in quote Gaza's

573
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 7: redevelopment and a quote Palestinian authority reform program that is

574
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 7: faithfully carried out. Only then, the plan says, quote, conditions

575
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 7: may finally be in place for a credible pathway to

576
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 7: Palestinian self determination and statehood. Basically, if the Palestinians do good,

577
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 7: if they comply with the International Security Force, if they

578
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 7: take orders from the Board of Peace and quote reform

579
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 7: the PA in some way, and what that means is

580
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 7: a really big open question, then maybe their demands for

581
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 7: self determination and statehood will eventually be discussed. As I've

582
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 7: said before on previous episodes, that statehood part is a

583
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 7: bit tricky because statehood means different things to different people. Apparently,

584
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 7: Jared Kushner talked about maybe giving Palestinians a state without

585
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 7: the annoying little detail of actual sovereignty is really prime

586
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 7: minister that signed the Oslo Accords. Yet Zakrabin, which was

587
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,760
Speaker 7: the first time Palestinians and Israelis agreed to anything, directly

588
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:13,240
Speaker 7: said after signing that Israel would only ever give Palestinians

589
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 7: something quote less than a state. The international community keeps

590
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 7: recognizing a Palestinian state when the Palestinians don't really have

591
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 7: control of any territory. It's like, is the state in

592
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 7: the room with us now. It's also important to note

593
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 7: here that the plan that Trump is proposing doesn't really

594
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 7: include any Palestinian input, at least meaningfully. The goal from

595
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 7: Israel and the US's perspective is for Hamas to be

596
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 7: removed from the equation altogether. There's some discussion actually still

597
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 7: of whether they will actually disarm or not, because Hamas

598
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 7: has said to the media that it's not considering this.

599
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 7: And as I mentioned, there is this throwaway line about

600
00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 7: reforming the Palestinian Authority, but what that means and how

601
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 7: the Palestinian people actually factor in isn't addressed. Here's my

602
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 7: educated guess. When Trump, an Israel, and the international community

603
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 7: say they want to reform the PA, we have to

604
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,359
Speaker 7: look at what they've been doing and pushing for in

605
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 7: the past couple of months to understand what that actually means.

606
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 7: So for them, if we look at their track record,

607
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 7: reforming the PA means figuring out an acceptable alternative from

608
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 7: their perspective, to replace the octagenarian Palestinian President Mahamud Abbas,

609
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 7: so that the PA can seem on paper more legitimate

610
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 7: and better positioned to sign away Palestinian rights during future negotiations.

611
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 7: They've already been pushing behind the scenes to set that up.

612
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 7: They pressured Abbas to convene the Palestine Liberation Organization Central Council,

613
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 7: change the bylaws, create a vice president position, and appoint

614
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 7: the guy that's acceptable to the US and Israel to

615
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 7: that role. That man was sena che Palestinian businessman and

616
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 7: former security guy who polls at two percent with Palestinians.

617
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 7: What reforming the PA does not mean it looks like,

618
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 7: is actual democratic reform where Palestinians can choose not only

619
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 7: their president but also on their legislative representatives and on

620
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 7: the PLO legislative body, the National Council. It looks like

621
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 7: reforming the PA doesn't mean all Palestinians will be allowed

622
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 7: to participate if limited elections are held, and it seems

623
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 7: it doesn't mean responding to what Palestinian civil society has

624
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 7: been asking for, which is reforming the PA by reforming

625
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 7: the PLO altogether so that all Palestinians can participate in

626
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 7: the discussion of national liberation. We can guess that the US, Israel,

627
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,800
Speaker 7: and the international community quote unquote are unlikely to offer

628
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 7: any of this because they've propped up the PA in

629
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,280
Speaker 7: the past and seem on propping up some puppet government

630
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 7: of the PA in the future. But they need the PA,

631
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 7: as some acceptable Palestinian entity to be even tangentially involved

632
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 7: in future negotiations so that they can say, look, the

633
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 7: Palestinians agree to this is legitimate, even if that PA

634
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 7: doesn't represent people. Even if most Palestinians eighty five percent

635
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 7: in the latest poll are dissatisfied with the PA's conduct

636
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 7: and forty two percent support the the solution of the

637
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 7: PA altogether, this is a dangerous game to play. Any

638
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 7: sort of peace process in the future, as impossible as

639
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 7: it seems at this current moment, that isn't predicated on

640
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,280
Speaker 7: the complete annihilation of one side of the conflict, will

641
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 7: need some degree of public support. It will need societies

642
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 7: involved in this conflict to buy into the process. Otherwise

643
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 7: you get spoilers, you get political actors engaging in violence

644
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 7: to disrupt the peace process, or you don't really resolve

645
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 7: the underlying issues in an even compromised, satisfactory way and

646
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 7: people get upset and the conflict continues. So, if you

647
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 7: don't include people's buy in, what you're banking on is

648
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,919
Speaker 7: being able to suppress people, and what you want isn't

649
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 7: really peace. It's authoritarian conflict management. It's illiberal. It maintains

650
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 7: structural violence in the name of preserving peace. It means

651
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 7: Palestinians wouldn't get the rights they have under international law

652
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 7: the right to self determination, and it means the occupation

653
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 7: in some form doesn't end.

654
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 8: The thing is.

655
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,800
Speaker 7: This is well understood and it's well understood by the

656
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 7: people involved in this twenty point piece plan for Gaza.

657
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,240
Speaker 7: Tony Blair, for example, was Prime Minister of the UK

658
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 7: when the Northern Ireland conflict was being negotiated and settled.

659
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 7: He understood then that public buy in was important. The

660
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 7: Good Friday Agreement, which ended the conflict in Northern Ireland

661
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 7: for the past twenty seven years, had not one, but

662
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 7: two referendums, one for the people of Northern Ireland and

663
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 7: one for the people of the Republic of Ireland. The

664
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 7: process of getting to the Good Friday Agreement also included

665
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 7: all groups militant groups from both sides of the conflict.

666
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 7: This is what it takes for a conflict to be

667
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 7: contained in some shape or form. But for some reason,

668
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 7: when international leaders or ex leaders in the case of

669
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 7: Tony Blair, think about conflicts in the Middle East involving Arabs,

670
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 7: then public buy in, democratic processes, sustainable peace no longer

671
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 7: factor into decision making. The buy in an opinion of

672
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 7: the public matters, But apparently only certain publics. In other conflicts, also,

673
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 7: like the breakdown of Yugoslavia, the perpetrators of genopocidal violence

674
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 7: were held accountable by international They were taken to the Hague.

675
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 7: They faced repercussions, of course, not perfectly, not entirely, not everyone.

676
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 7: Some parties of the conflict that emerged in Bosnia after

677
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,720
Speaker 7: were rewarded for their violence. The vision of the Serbian

678
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,720
Speaker 7: leadership that committed war crimes in Bosnia came to fruition

679
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 7: to some degree in the form of Republica Serpska today,

680
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 7: which is a semi autonomous region that divides Bosnia Herzegovina.

681
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 7: But nevertheless, the international community at least understood the necessity

682
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 7: of holding perpetrators accountable for violence and war crimes, even

683
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 7: if the execution was incomplete. In this case, there is

684
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 7: no such discussion. A number of human rights organizations and

685
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 7: the UN Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory

686
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 7: have found Israeli leaders President Isaac Hertzog, Prime Minister Benjamin

687
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 7: Netanyahu and then Defense Minister Yuav Gallant personally responsible for

688
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 7: the decisions made in Gaza, the decision to engage in

689
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 7: genocide in Gaza, but the ceasefire plan, which they are

690
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 7: billing as a quote peace plan for a new Gaza

691
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 7: and they're trying to make the basis of future negotiations,

692
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 7: says nothing about accountability for crimes committed. Trump, in fact,

693
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 7: went in front of the Kanesset, the Israeli parliament, and

694
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,439
Speaker 7: insisted on his support for Prime Minister Nataniahu. He even

695
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 7: got involved in Natanyahu's corruption case that he has domestically

696
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:28,760
Speaker 7: in Israel. Addressing President Isaac hertzog As Kanesse members clapped

697
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 7: and jeered.

698
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 8: Hey, I have an idea, mister president.

699
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:35,320
Speaker 3: Why don't you give him a pardon.

700
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 7: That's what we're dealing with here, Just an audacious, outrageous

701
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 7: display of corruption on so many levels. The fact that

702
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 7: these guys are the guys putting together the so called

703
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 7: peace plan quotes poorly for the sustainability of this ceasefire

704
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 7: agreement beyond the first phase, beyond Israel getting what it

705
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:11,280
Speaker 7: wants the hostages a huge buffer zone that leaves Israel

706
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:15,839
Speaker 7: in control of Gaza's former urban areas, and possibly they

707
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 7: might get the neutralization of Hamas, it's not clear that

708
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 7: this ceasefire agreement can actually advance into a sustainable negotiation

709
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,760
Speaker 7: that maintains peace in the long run. It's why scholar

710
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:31,240
Speaker 7: Marika Sosnowski at the University of Melbourne, who studies ceasefire

711
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 7: agreements in particular, calls this a strangle contract. She notes

712
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 7: that Israeli withdrawal, release of hostages, and full aid being

713
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 7: led into Gaza is the quote bare minimum you would

714
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 7: expect both sides to acquiesce to as part of a

715
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 7: ceasefire deal. She expresses concern that this agreement is highly

716
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 7: coercive and that it quote enables the more powerful party

717
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 7: to force the weaker party into agreeing to anything in

718
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 7: order for them to survive. This is in direct contrast

719
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 7: to a bargain between two equal parties that can sustain peace.

720
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 7: She also very rightly notes that Israel could at any

721
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,959
Speaker 7: time claim the Palestinians are not abiding by the terms

722
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 7: of the agreement and and the ceasefire, justifying restarting the war.

723
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 7: The Palestinians have no leverage at all in this agreement,

724
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 7: and obviously they can't rely on unbiased international mediation with

725
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 7: the Trump and Kushner and Blairs of the world. At

726
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 7: the helm of this Sisnowski quotes a Palestinian leader from

727
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 7: Yermut Camp and Syria, who said to her quote, if

728
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 7: there is a ceasefire, people know the devil is coming.

729
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 7: I think that captures exactly everyone's fears in this moment.

730
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 7: The Palestinian Civil Defense Agency says forty Palestinians have been

731
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,359
Speaker 7: killed in Gaza today October nineteenth. Children have been shot

732
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 7: and killed in the West Bank after the ceasefire agreement.

733
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 7: Israel raided the family homes of Palestinian prisoners in five

734
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 7: districts across the West Bank before releasing them. Nataniehu has

735
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 7: said he won't open the Rafah crossing. These all seem

736
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 7: like Israeli violations to the ceasefire to me, but that's

737
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 7: not how it'll be reported. And because the Trump administration

738
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:15,240
Speaker 7: has twisted the meaning of words, where domination equals peace

739
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 7: and injustice equal stability. Once this happens, I fear very

740
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 7: few will question the premise of this agreement and the

741
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 7: entire peace process to begin with, a peace process for

742
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 7: Palestinians aren't even allowed to participate. No one can be

743
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:33,359
Speaker 7: surprised when this doesn't last, and no one can be

744
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,479
Speaker 7: surprised that this cannot be the basis for sustainable peace.

745
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 7: But Hey, I hope I'm wrong. Thank you for listening

746
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,240
Speaker 7: to this episode of It Could Happen Here. Here's Hoping

747
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 7: for Justice and Peace.

748
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 9: Welcome to Ake It Happened Here, a podcast that has

749
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 9: increasingly become about tariffs in the second Trump regime. I

750
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 9: am your host, Miil Wong, and oh boy, it has

751
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 9: been a big few weeks for tariff news. We have

752
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 9: tariff numbers on China that I'm not even going to

753
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:29,359
Speaker 9: bother to actually record right now because by the time

754
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 9: this goes out, the numbers will probably be different. There

755
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 9: are supposed to be major negotiations underway between Trump and

756
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,800
Speaker 9: the Chinese government to attempt to come to yet another

757
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 9: trade agreement and stave off yet another round one hundred

758
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:48,319
Speaker 9: percent tariffs. Now, if you want to follow the sort

759
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 9: of blow by blow of what exactly is going on,

760
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 9: I'm going to just sort of refer you to my

761
00:47:55,719 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 9: section tariff talk on Executive Disorder. However, com we need

762
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 9: to take a deeper look at what structurally is going

763
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 9: on in the global economy that is resulting in the

764
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 9: demand for tariffs in the first place. And I think

765
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 9: the place to go if that's the thing that you're

766
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,839
Speaker 9: trying to figure out. And we've talked about the sort

767
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,399
Speaker 9: of ideological aspects of this in other episodes. We've talked

768
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:30,800
Speaker 9: about the ways that the sort of politics of fascism,

769
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:35,359
Speaker 9: the politics of anti semitism, the politics of masculinity lead

770
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 9: people towards these extremely ulternationalist policies that are specifically supposed

771
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 9: to sort of protect the domestic blood and soil national

772
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 9: industry and are supposed to protect material goods over services.

773
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 9: But there are things that are happening structurally in the

774
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 9: economy that make it such that people would consider things

775
00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 9: like the tariffs that have been happening under this regime

776
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 9: as a solution to things that are kind of structural

777
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 9: problems of the economy specifically. And this is what we're

778
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 9: going to be focusing on today. Over capacity and steel. Now,

779
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 9: some of you may be asking, Mia, why are we

780
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 9: talking about steel over capacity? And I think there's a

781
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 9: few important notes here. One, steel is in some ways

782
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 9: emblematic of American tariff policy. It is I guess you

783
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 9: would call it the most material of the tariffs, in

784
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 9: the sense that it's the one where there's the most

785
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 9: actual direct sort of material forces and direct lobbying groups

786
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 9: asking for these specific tariffs. The American steel industry has

787
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 9: been lobbying to some extent for some measures kind of

788
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 9: like this. Steel is also one of the industries whereas

789
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,760
Speaker 9: as tariff rates are fluctuated and got up and down

790
00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:59,439
Speaker 9: and whole waves of like Liberation Day, tariffs got put

791
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 9: into place and then removed, and some of them we

792
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 9: got put back into place a little bit. The steel

793
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 9: tariffs were set at fifty percent and they've stayed at

794
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 9: fifty percent since they were set. Basically, there's been a

795
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 9: little bit of variation sort of before the final fix

796
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 9: percent number was arrived at, but the steel tariffs have

797
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:21,280
Speaker 9: been one of the most stable tariffs. And the reason

798
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 9: why it's been this stable if people can think back

799
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 9: all the way to twenty eighteen, which I know that

800
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,760
Speaker 9: was a long time ago, but there was a miniature

801
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 9: trade war between the US and China in twenty eighteen,

802
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:37,760
Speaker 9: and significant portions of it were focused on Chinese steel

803
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 9: production specifically, and you know, this is one of the

804
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 9: sort of fights that was had out. Nothing really structurally

805
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 9: changed much from those. There was kind of a back

806
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 9: and forth and then both sides kind of pulled back.

807
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:56,800
Speaker 9: But Comma, that's not happening this time. And what's interesting,

808
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 9: and the reason that I was specifically talking about steel

809
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 9: here is that it's now not just Trump that is

810
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 9: tempting to institute large scale tariffs on steel. The European

811
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:13,240
Speaker 9: Commission for the EU has released a proposal to double

812
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 9: tariffs on imported steel up to fifty percent, which is

813
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:19,360
Speaker 9: matched in the US, and also reduce the amount of

814
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 9: steel that could be imported into the EU without paying

815
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:26,400
Speaker 9: any tariffs at all. And this is actually massive because

816
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 9: this is an example of the EU effectively following US

817
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 9: trade policy for very very similar reasons as the US.

818
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 9: And if we can get to the bottom of what

819
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:39,759
Speaker 9: is going on here, and I promise we will, and

820
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 9: I promise this will go towards something that is explaining

821
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 9: really truly the macro dynamics of the entire global economy

822
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 9: and why it's fucked. If we can actually trace out

823
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,359
Speaker 9: what's going on with these steel tariffs, we can do that.

824
00:51:55,880 --> 00:52:01,919
Speaker 9: So let's talk about steel. Over Capacity as a concept

825
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:06,399
Speaker 9: is sort of convoluted. You know, you have to sort

826
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 9: of ask the question, what is the quote unquote correct

827
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 9: amount of steel? Because over capacity, you know, implies that

828
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:16,800
Speaker 9: there's capacity to produce steel over the amount that should

829
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 9: be produced. So okay, how do you figure how MU

830
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 9: steel should be produced?

831
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:21,360
Speaker 4: Eh?

832
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 9: Very nebulous. It's also very difficult to measure because, okay,

833
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 9: we're gonna try to measure steel over capacity. There's a

834
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:31,800
Speaker 9: lot of ways to do it that rely on things

835
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 9: like utilization rates. Right, So you look at the steel facilities,

836
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:37,279
Speaker 9: you see how much they're being used at. You see

837
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 9: how much you know excess capacity there is, how many

838
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 9: how many factories are sitting empty one percentage of factories,

839
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 9: you know, total outputs being used. This doesn't work because

840
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:50,360
Speaker 9: the utilization rates of these factories of this fixed capital

841
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 9: varies seasonally, for example, and it varies due to not

842
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 9: just the season, but a whole bunch of other factors,

843
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 9: things like you know, labor supply, weather demand pulls, and

844
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 9: of whole munch of other factors. Utilization rates of steel

845
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 9: producing facilities are very rarely at one hundred percent, even

846
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 9: in Marcus where demand at shrip supply. And this makes

847
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:18,240
Speaker 9: it very very difficult to measure China's actual quote unquote overcapacity.

848
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:22,359
Speaker 9: I am not going to even really try to give

849
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 9: numbers because it's extremely subjective. How do I say this

850
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 9: based on the research that I have done. I think

851
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 9: the numbers you normally see in the West are inflated

852
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:35,280
Speaker 9: because they are not accounting for things like the weather,

853
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 9: because it is in the interest of sort of Western

854
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:42,320
Speaker 9: research institutions, but for example, Western financial institutions, specifically steel companies,

855
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 9: and they're sort of like allied China Hawk, you know,

856
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 9: sort of like academics to have the number be as

857
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 9: high as possible. You will also see numbers from people

858
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:55,439
Speaker 9: who are tied to Chinese government, And when I say

859
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:57,799
Speaker 9: tied to, I mean kind of in a loose ideological sense.

860
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 9: In the same way as the China Hawks are, the

861
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,239
Speaker 9: Chinahawks tend to actually be more directly connected to the

862
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 9: US government. Their numbers are probably also too low. But

863
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 9: I don't want to give you the impression that I

864
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 9: have a extremely certain understanding of what the exact number

865
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:19,919
Speaker 9: of millions of tons of xsdo production is happening. What

866
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 9: we can sort of agree on is that there does

867
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:29,759
Speaker 9: seem to be some kind of overcapacity in the Chinese economy, right,

868
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:32,760
Speaker 9: and this is something that the Chinese Communist Party also

869
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 9: agrees on. If you go back to a document that

870
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:40,879
Speaker 9: really really few people in the US have ever seen

871
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 9: to have heard of, which is the wonderfully titled Opinions

872
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 9: of the CPC Central Committee and the State Council on

873
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 9: further Promoting the development of Ecological Civilization, which was one

874
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 9: of the founding documentary Chinese environmental policy and the ideological

875
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 9: sort of underpinnings of this thing called ecological civilization, which

876
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 9: is the basis of Chinese environmental policy. One of the

877
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:11,359
Speaker 9: things that they mentioned a lot is specifically overcapacity. Right,

878
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:15,800
Speaker 9: They are actually very concerned about the overcapacity of steal

879
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 9: from an ecological perspective. And this is sort of fascinating

880
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 9: because we'll be looking at some scholars later who are

881
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 9: favorably quoted in Chinese state media's sources describing how there

882
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 9: isn't actually overcapacity because states say different things in different places,

883
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 9: and this is in fact extremely common. But there does

884
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 9: seem to be some kind of overcapacity, and the Chinese

885
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 9: government was to some extent making attempts to reduce it

886
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:46,960
Speaker 9: during this sort of period of trade war. Now, the

887
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 9: other issue we're talking about overcapacity is that overcapacity is

888
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:54,799
Speaker 9: an extremely political issue now, right, It's extremely weird because

889
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 9: the Chinese seal over capacity is like my most niche

890
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:01,839
Speaker 9: thing that I've studied. I've had like a paper on

891
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 9: this sitting in a drive on my computer for over

892
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 9: half a decade. I have never brought it out until now.

893
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 9: But it's become an extremely political topic because the different

894
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:19,239
Speaker 9: theories of stealover capacity have become a basis for a

895
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 9: lot of genuine trade policy. Now. I think a very

896
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:27,840
Speaker 9: very interesting book at Chinese stealover capacity is from the

897
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:31,240
Speaker 9: book Understanding China's over Capacity. She's written by two Chinese

898
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 9: economists that I think is a really interesting literature survey.

899
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 9: This this is around bout twenty eighteen. But I think

900
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 9: what's interesting about it it's from before the period where

901
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 9: everyone in the West had sort of decided what they

902
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:52,319
Speaker 9: think caused Chinese steal over capacity, and so you can

903
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:54,480
Speaker 9: go back. You know, it's not just useful to sort

904
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:56,879
Speaker 9: of go back in time and look at the other

905
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 9: theories that were sort of floating around academia before or

906
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:04,800
Speaker 9: a few of them got specifically selective for ideological purposes. Now,

907
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 9: I mentioned earlier, we'd be talking about some economists. You

908
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 9: don't think that's Chinese steel over capacity is real, that's

909
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:11,719
Speaker 9: these people. I think that part of their thesis is

910
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:14,920
Speaker 9: not very good. I think their survey of the literature

911
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 9: on overcapacity, though, is very good. And one of the

912
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 9: very interesting arguments they make this doesn't argue with a

913
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 9: couple of other economists that has sort of disappeared from

914
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:34,000
Speaker 9: the literature is in argument about, okay, so there's steel

915
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 9: production that's happening that doesn't need to happen. I think

916
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 9: it's pretty fair to say that something is over capacity

917
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 9: if it's producing a bunch of steel that sits there

918
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 9: in rots because no one can sell it, which is

919
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 9: a thing that happens with Chinese steel. And one of

920
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 9: the most interesting theses that has really been abandoned, even

921
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 9: though I think it is actually to a decent extent

922
00:57:54,800 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 9: explanatory of a lot of very very weird stuff that

923
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 9: happens in Chinese policy circles and a lot of just

924
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:11,240
Speaker 9: very baffling investment decisions, is specifically something about local caudras

925
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:14,960
Speaker 9: and their performance incentives. So, okay, something that's very important

926
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:18,200
Speaker 9: to understand about the structure of the CCP is that

927
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 9: Chinese government institutions are sort of run by these caudras, right,

928
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 9: and so if you are, for example, I don't know

929
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:29,160
Speaker 9: you are the mayor of a mid size city, right,

930
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 9: you get performance evaluations and those sort of yearly performance evaluations.

931
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:36,880
Speaker 9: Sometimes there's less frequents than that, but those those performance

932
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:40,600
Speaker 9: evaluations rank you at sort of how good you're doing

933
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:44,320
Speaker 9: your job. And obviously there's political maneuver rank here too,

934
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 9: But if you do a good job of hitting your targets,

935
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:49,200
Speaker 9: this is your path to advance upwards in the party

936
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 9: and be moved from you know, like sort of running

937
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 9: a small city to like being brought into caudra in

938
00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 9: larger cities, and you know, moving your way up the part,

939
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 9: moving national positions. These evaluations are extremely important. You can

940
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:07,920
Speaker 9: also get sort of busted down if your evaluations suck. Again,

941
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:11,360
Speaker 9: there's also what politics are too, But these evaluations actually

942
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 9: do matter. And one of the issues with these evaluations

943
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 9: and these are also policy making implementation tools, right. You know,

944
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:23,400
Speaker 9: the central government can decide what kinds of policies they

945
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:26,240
Speaker 9: want to pursue, and then they can use these codure

946
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:29,479
Speaker 9: evaluations to make people at the sort of local level

947
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:31,919
Speaker 9: who are usually semi autonomous in ways that I think

948
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:35,840
Speaker 9: is not very well understood in the West, these countrare

949
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 9: evaluations are ways to try to ensure that Chinese sort

950
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:44,880
Speaker 9: of local and provincial government policy kind of aligns with

951
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 9: national party policy. And the waiting on these examinations is

952
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:52,720
Speaker 9: such that it has very very weird effects. And what

953
00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 9: I'm specifically talking about here is that GDP numbers are

954
00:59:56,920 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 9: very very important to these codure value and it matters

955
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 9: that it's specifically gross domestic product because GDP is a

956
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 9: very very weird number, and there's a lot of stuff

957
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 9: you can do to sort of juice GDP numbers that

958
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:23,120
Speaker 9: aren't really necessarily beneficial to an economy. So you can

959
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 9: have a bunch of firms that are basically unprofitable or

960
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:32,120
Speaker 9: doing something that's like not particularly economically or socially useful,

961
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:35,840
Speaker 9: and that can still boost GDP numbers. And one of

962
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 9: the things that happens with this is that you can

963
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:40,120
Speaker 9: boost GDP numbers by making a shit tout of steel

964
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 9: that nobody actually really wants or uses. And because of

965
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 9: the priority that's set on GDP numbers specifically, and there's

966
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:49,480
Speaker 9: also a whole bunch of these sort of weird financial

967
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:51,959
Speaker 9: games that you can play that's also played a major

968
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 9: role in the way the Chinese housing bubble has played

969
01:00:55,440 --> 01:01:00,600
Speaker 9: out and the way that the government has been unwilling

970
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:02,160
Speaker 9: to sort of you know, and when I say the

971
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:05,200
Speaker 9: government here, I be in both the national governments and

972
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 9: also sort of these lower level governments have been unwilling

973
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:09,800
Speaker 9: to sort of let a bunch of debt bubbles that

974
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:13,920
Speaker 9: they've accumulated pop because those things prop up GDP numbers,

975
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:17,000
Speaker 9: and the incentive on the local level is to keep

976
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:20,440
Speaker 9: these numbers up. This used to actually be one of

977
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 9: the things that people would talk about when they talked

978
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:26,240
Speaker 9: about Chinese steal over capacity. But it's complicated, like you

979
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 9: can't very very easily explain this to you know, like

980
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 9: a right wing congress person and have them go, oh, yeah, right,

981
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 9: this is unfair to the American market, and so it

982
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:40,919
Speaker 9: kind of has like fallen out of favor and sort

983
01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:44,160
Speaker 9: of like the explanation to steal over capacity you see

984
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 9: in places like the New York Times. But I actually

985
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:48,600
Speaker 9: think this is one of the things that does, to

986
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:52,120
Speaker 9: some extent cause Chinese steal over capacity. Now do you

987
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:55,520
Speaker 9: know what doesn't cause Chinese steal over capacity? That's right,

988
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:58,560
Speaker 9: it is the products and services that support this podcast.

989
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:12,600
Speaker 9: So I wanted to talk about the local quadra explanations,

990
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 9: because I actually think these are kind of important. And

991
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:22,080
Speaker 9: I want to talk about one other argument that's also

992
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:26,840
Speaker 9: not really used much that used to be a lot

993
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 9: more common, which is an argument that Chinese economist makes

994
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 9: that one of the reasons that there's overcapacity in Chinese

995
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:41,240
Speaker 9: steel production is that upwards wealth distribution leads to lower

996
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 9: levels of consumption and thus over capacity. And so what

997
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:46,840
Speaker 9: is basically means and this is something that I think

998
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 9: is actually also a thing that's the best structural problem

999
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:51,240
Speaker 9: in in the Chinese economies, that the Chinese economy is

1000
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:56,040
Speaker 9: extremely highly unequal and wages, you know, like they have

1001
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:59,439
Speaker 9: risen to some extent, but they're not rising anywhere near

1002
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 9: you know, like we've everyone in the US have seen

1003
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:05,160
Speaker 9: that famous charge of productivity versus like labor gains, right

1004
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 9: like wage gains versus prouctivity increases. Wages in China have

1005
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:12,160
Speaker 9: gone up, they have absolutely not kept pace with sort

1006
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:16,840
Speaker 9: of productivity growth, and they also absolutely like have not

1007
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:20,760
Speaker 9: kept pace with the amount of the profit being produced

1008
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:23,360
Speaker 9: that is going to a very very small number of

1009
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:27,640
Speaker 9: capital owners. And this actually to reach the structural problem,

1010
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:30,000
Speaker 9: and this is we're seeing a very similar structural problem

1011
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:33,720
Speaker 9: to this in the US, where there is a lot

1012
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:39,160
Speaker 9: of consumption that if that money wasn't just all going

1013
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 9: to a bunch of rich people, people would actually be

1014
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:47,240
Speaker 9: spending it on things, And particularly in Chinese context, the

1015
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 9: argument was that if if there was a better distribution

1016
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 9: of wealth, people would buy more houses, and this would

1017
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:55,120
Speaker 9: actually reduce over capacity because suddenly a bunch of the

1018
01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 9: slack capacity would be being used to like build houses,

1019
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 9: except people can't afford the houses. And this is a

1020
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:04,880
Speaker 9: structural problem that like economists sort of note about for

1021
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:07,560
Speaker 9: decades and decades, which is that China has been for

1022
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:09,560
Speaker 9: a very long time. The whole thing was that they

1023
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:12,320
Speaker 9: were trying to transition into a consumption economy, which is

1024
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 9: to say, they were trying to transition into an economy

1025
01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:18,160
Speaker 9: that was fueled by its own internal consumption. The US

1026
01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 9: is to a large extent sort of kind of works

1027
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 9: like this, where you know, you want to increase the

1028
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:24,560
Speaker 9: level of consumption and the amount of stuff that people

1029
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:27,120
Speaker 9: in your country are buying, and this is a way

1030
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 9: to sort of like create a middle income country, right

1031
01:04:30,080 --> 01:04:32,040
Speaker 9: And China has historically not been able to do this,

1032
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 9: and haven't been able to do this because they won't

1033
01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:36,720
Speaker 9: raise wages. But you know, if they won't actually raised

1034
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:42,480
Speaker 9: wages enough to increase people's consumption levels, then you're left

1035
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:46,680
Speaker 9: for structural overcapacity because demand is being lowered because people

1036
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:50,840
Speaker 9: don't have any fucking money. Now, this is another argument

1037
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:53,560
Speaker 9: again and I think is also probably correct that is

1038
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:57,320
Speaker 9: very much not talked about anymore because the argument that

1039
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:01,640
Speaker 9: is used in in sort of understanding what's going on

1040
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:06,680
Speaker 9: with Chinese seel capacity is about the Chinese subsidization of

1041
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:10,600
Speaker 9: state owned enterprises at the expense of sort of private firms.

1042
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:13,040
Speaker 9: And the argument here basically said, the state is propping

1043
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:18,360
Speaker 9: up a bunch of unprofitable enterprises and they're holding sectors

1044
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 9: of the economy that should be you know, taken over

1045
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:24,800
Speaker 9: by more efficient private firms, but they can't because they're

1046
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:29,200
Speaker 9: being subsidized by the government. And this is sort of true,

1047
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:34,560
Speaker 9: but this became a massive geopolitical argument because the argument

1048
01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:36,600
Speaker 9: from the American side, and when you hear anyone talking

1049
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 9: about steal of capacity, now this is the argument that

1050
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:41,120
Speaker 9: you hear right, which that China is flooding the world

1051
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:44,000
Speaker 9: with cheap steel because there's a whole bunch of like

1052
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:46,680
Speaker 9: Chinese state own industries or just like Chinese businesses are

1053
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:48,760
Speaker 9: just getting money from the Chinese government to produce steel

1054
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:51,120
Speaker 9: and they're pumping cheap steel to the rest of the world.

1055
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:58,080
Speaker 9: And this is not really I mean, like kind of

1056
01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:01,400
Speaker 9: this is happening, but it's also not the reason why

1057
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:06,160
Speaker 9: there's large scale steal over capacity. And of course the

1058
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:09,680
Speaker 9: argument is that China isn't competing fairly in the market,

1059
01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:13,280
Speaker 9: like this is very silly. Markets have never worked without

1060
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:18,080
Speaker 9: large scale state quote unquote interference, Like American companies also

1061
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:21,400
Speaker 9: get extremely high level subsidization et cetera, et ceteracy, all

1062
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 9: of US coregn policy. But you know, this is the

1063
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:31,000
Speaker 9: political imperative that's behind a lot of the rhetoric coming

1064
01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:34,000
Speaker 9: out of steel producers and out of the American right

1065
01:06:34,080 --> 01:06:38,720
Speaker 9: about why there should be terrocists on steel. Now there's

1066
01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 9: a problem though, which is that all of these arguments

1067
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:48,040
Speaker 9: are very specific to China.

1068
01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:48,320
Speaker 1: Right.

1069
01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:50,560
Speaker 9: The argument is that there are specifically steal over capacity

1070
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:54,280
Speaker 9: in China because it's something structurally specifically wrong with the

1071
01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:57,440
Speaker 9: Chinese economy that's like makes it not a free market,

1072
01:06:57,520 --> 01:07:01,200
Speaker 9: and because of that, China's like unfair competing global market.

1073
01:07:01,240 --> 01:07:02,840
Speaker 9: And this is why there's so much over capacity of

1074
01:07:02,920 --> 01:07:08,000
Speaker 9: Chinese steel. This is wrong. There are individual parts of

1075
01:07:08,040 --> 01:07:10,200
Speaker 9: this where yeah, like there are things where there is

1076
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:14,800
Speaker 9: excess capacity being produced by quadre evaluations and by to

1077
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:23,080
Speaker 9: some extent like so we subsidization. However, Comma, there's a problem.

1078
01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:28,640
Speaker 9: And the problem here is that over capacity and overcapacity

1079
01:07:28,640 --> 01:07:30,960
Speaker 9: and steel is not just a Chinese phenomena. It is

1080
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:33,360
Speaker 9: a global phenomena. It has been a global phenomena for

1081
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:35,720
Speaker 9: a long time, and it is largely a product of

1082
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:39,200
Speaker 9: the fact that we do not live in a global

1083
01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:46,400
Speaker 9: economy that can actually support the amount of production capacity

1084
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:49,800
Speaker 9: that exists in the world. This has been a problem

1085
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:54,200
Speaker 9: really since the seventies, and arguably even since the sixties,

1086
01:07:54,520 --> 01:07:57,959
Speaker 9: where as countries rebuilt from World War Two, and as

1087
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:00,960
Speaker 9: some some sort of developments in global capital that we're

1088
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:06,280
Speaker 9: going to be sort of like talking about soon happens

1089
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:09,560
Speaker 9: that the product of all of this is that production

1090
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:13,080
Speaker 9: has And this is kind of the thing that the

1091
01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:17,000
Speaker 9: sort of fascist right kind of intuitively understands. Production has

1092
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:20,439
Speaker 9: become zero sum, right, It's very difficult to increase production

1093
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:24,519
Speaker 9: in one country without having it, you know, affect production

1094
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:26,840
Speaker 9: in the countries there isn't enough demand in the market

1095
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:40,760
Speaker 9: to sort of like fuel all of these things. So

1096
01:08:41,320 --> 01:08:45,200
Speaker 9: why is there not enough demand to fuel the amount

1097
01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:47,680
Speaker 9: of supply that would be that would be necessary to

1098
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:52,120
Speaker 9: make there not be over capacity. The answer to this,

1099
01:08:52,400 --> 01:08:55,679
Speaker 9: in sort of marketing theory is that, as they sort

1100
01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:59,560
Speaker 9: of put it, over production and under consumption are doubly constructed.

1101
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:01,920
Speaker 9: I'm going to read a quote from end Notes, volume two,

1102
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:03,160
Speaker 9: and then we're going to explain a little bit what

1103
01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:06,920
Speaker 9: that means. The wage allocates workers to production and at

1104
01:09:06,920 --> 01:09:10,680
Speaker 9: the same time allocates the product to workers. So what

1105
01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:16,840
Speaker 9: that means is that under consumption and overproduction are in

1106
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:20,840
Speaker 9: effect the same thing, right, Because the way that we

1107
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:24,560
Speaker 9: allocate workers to what thing they're going to do, and

1108
01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:27,519
Speaker 9: at the same time allocate products to those workers is

1109
01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:31,880
Speaker 9: the wage, which is one thing. So overproduction and under

1110
01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:36,120
Speaker 9: consumption are the same thing, right, and they're caused by

1111
01:09:36,400 --> 01:09:41,320
Speaker 9: the same structural elements of the wage relation. Now, this

1112
01:09:41,400 --> 01:09:46,240
Speaker 9: means that the Chinese capacity crisis is actually part of

1113
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:47,880
Speaker 9: a larger crisis.

1114
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:48,760
Speaker 1: Right.

1115
01:09:49,280 --> 01:09:52,160
Speaker 9: You know the thing about the double construction, you know

1116
01:09:52,240 --> 01:09:54,720
Speaker 9: of overcapacity in unter consumption. Right, the fact that they

1117
01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:57,439
Speaker 9: are really the two things that's unified in the fact that,

1118
01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:00,400
Speaker 9: like your wage allocates what kind of productions you're doing

1119
01:10:00,439 --> 01:10:04,200
Speaker 9: and what you can consume. The fact that both those

1120
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:07,920
Speaker 9: things combined are realized in this sort of secular crisis

1121
01:10:08,160 --> 01:10:11,160
Speaker 9: in what's called Marxist absolute general law of capitalist accumulation.

1122
01:10:12,120 --> 01:10:15,880
Speaker 9: So what the fuck is that the short version is?

1123
01:10:16,479 --> 01:10:19,639
Speaker 9: Over time in capitalist economies, there's supposed to be an

1124
01:10:19,720 --> 01:10:23,920
Speaker 9: increase of what's called the organic composition of capital. Basically,

1125
01:10:23,960 --> 01:10:26,400
Speaker 9: there are composition of capital is a way to measure

1126
01:10:27,080 --> 01:10:29,799
Speaker 9: how much in the pro labor process. It's like fixed capital,

1127
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:33,880
Speaker 9: variable capital, so it's like how much factory is there

1128
01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 9: relative to the amount of worker there is. And Marxist thesis,

1129
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:42,000
Speaker 9: which has generally been born out, although we'll talk a

1130
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:45,120
Speaker 9: little bit about that more later, is that this composition

1131
01:10:45,439 --> 01:10:50,040
Speaker 9: is going to increase, and as it increases, accumulation also

1132
01:10:50,160 --> 01:10:53,040
Speaker 9: needs to increase in order to maintain employment levels. This

1133
01:10:53,120 --> 01:10:57,120
Speaker 9: is sort of accomplished by things like automation, which reduces

1134
01:10:57,160 --> 01:11:00,719
Speaker 9: the size of the labor force, and thus, to quote

1135
01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:05,600
Speaker 9: and notes again, as accumulation proceeds, a growing superabundance of

1136
01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:10,799
Speaker 9: goods lowers the rate of profit and heightens competition. Across lines,

1137
01:11:11,280 --> 01:11:15,160
Speaker 9: compelling all capitalists to, as Mark said, economize on labor.

1138
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:18,879
Speaker 9: So basically what this means is like as as capital

1139
01:11:18,920 --> 01:11:21,559
Speaker 9: gets turned into more capital and larger amounts of capital,

1140
01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:25,479
Speaker 9: this is the accumulation process. As this continues, right, you

1141
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:28,400
Speaker 9: get this massive sort of increasing the amount of goods

1142
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:31,040
Speaker 9: that are being produced. Eventually that lowers the rate of

1143
01:11:31,080 --> 01:11:35,360
Speaker 9: profit in a sector. And eventually what that does is,

1144
01:11:35,400 --> 01:11:37,360
Speaker 9: you know, in order to sort of economize on labor,

1145
01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:41,840
Speaker 9: capital increases the amount of automation reduces the amount of

1146
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:44,320
Speaker 9: people that they need in the labor process. You know,

1147
01:11:44,360 --> 01:11:46,680
Speaker 9: this is what what's generally known as automation and the

1148
01:11:46,720 --> 01:11:49,280
Speaker 9: sort of crisis of people getting kicked out of the

1149
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:51,360
Speaker 9: draws because of it. As this process is sort of

1150
01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:54,799
Speaker 9: generalized across sectoral lines across different parts of the economy,

1151
01:11:55,320 --> 01:11:59,160
Speaker 9: the relative demand for labor decreases and workers are spin

1152
01:11:59,240 --> 01:12:00,960
Speaker 9: out of the wage re line, which is the fancy

1153
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:05,160
Speaker 9: Marxist way to say that become structurally unemployed. And you know,

1154
01:12:05,240 --> 01:12:07,160
Speaker 9: the thing that happens when you get kicked out of

1155
01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:10,640
Speaker 9: the capitalist wage relation is you get kicked into informal

1156
01:12:10,720 --> 01:12:16,400
Speaker 9: labor and slums, which you know decreases demand and increase overproduction.

1157
01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:19,840
Speaker 9: At the same time, over capacity is skyrocketing, right, because

1158
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:21,639
Speaker 9: you have increasing numbers of people who have been spat

1159
01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:24,880
Speaker 9: out the formal economy who no longer have access to

1160
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:27,559
Speaker 9: regular wages. The wages they get in the informal economy

1161
01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:28,880
Speaker 9: are less than the ones they would get in the

1162
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:31,840
Speaker 9: formal economy. And as we were saying write, access to

1163
01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:35,400
Speaker 9: like the wage, both determines production and consumption. So if

1164
01:12:35,439 --> 01:12:38,120
Speaker 9: you lose access to the wage, right, and there's still

1165
01:12:38,120 --> 01:12:41,439
Speaker 9: more stuff being produced because of automation levels, what you

1166
01:12:41,520 --> 01:12:45,120
Speaker 9: get is a massive, skyrocketing double increase of overproduction and

1167
01:12:45,280 --> 01:12:48,840
Speaker 9: under consumption, right, because there's just not enough money to

1168
01:12:48,920 --> 01:12:51,640
Speaker 9: fucking buy the stuff. And the result of this is

1169
01:12:51,720 --> 01:12:56,000
Speaker 9: a miseration. Everything gets fucking worse. This sort of used

1170
01:12:56,040 --> 01:12:58,120
Speaker 9: to be an academic argument. It is no longer an

1171
01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:02,080
Speaker 9: academic argument. It is just the terrain on which economic

1172
01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:06,960
Speaker 9: policy unfolds. Now. The miseration thesis is this is you know,

1173
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:10,080
Speaker 9: as a sort of like general law of capitalist accumulation

1174
01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:13,280
Speaker 9: is called has been argued about constantly. There have been

1175
01:13:13,320 --> 01:13:16,439
Speaker 9: ways that has been avoided. One of the biggest ways

1176
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:21,320
Speaker 9: traditionally has been by capitalism sort of transforming goods into services.

1177
01:13:22,439 --> 01:13:24,479
Speaker 9: So for example, like the operative example of this is

1178
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:26,960
Speaker 9: the transition in the US from rail lines to cars

1179
01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:30,240
Speaker 9: on something that points out, So you know, you get

1180
01:13:30,240 --> 01:13:32,559
Speaker 9: these new industries that are both labor or capital intensive.

1181
01:13:32,560 --> 01:13:36,960
Speaker 9: By replacing train with car, you know, you can absorb

1182
01:13:37,080 --> 01:13:39,719
Speaker 9: huge populations of workers as well as incorporate the peasantry

1183
01:13:39,720 --> 01:13:42,720
Speaker 9: into the industrial economy by sort of like converting these

1184
01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:44,720
Speaker 9: things into services. This has sort of been what the

1185
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:48,320
Speaker 9: economy has been increasingly converted into a service based economy

1186
01:13:48,320 --> 01:13:52,439
Speaker 9: of various kinds. That's kind of what's happening now, you know,

1187
01:13:52,479 --> 01:13:54,280
Speaker 9: and you and you can see this process that work

1188
01:13:54,360 --> 01:13:56,439
Speaker 9: in the Chinese economy back when it was you know,

1189
01:13:56,800 --> 01:14:00,680
Speaker 9: really growing in the nineties and two thousands. But you know,

1190
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:03,880
Speaker 9: once the peasantry had been absorbed as sort of both

1191
01:14:03,920 --> 01:14:06,280
Speaker 9: a new market and a new labor force with lower

1192
01:14:06,320 --> 01:14:09,599
Speaker 9: cost of production because wages are cheaper for a bunch

1193
01:14:09,600 --> 01:14:12,800
Speaker 9: of structural reasons, the old tendencies of capital set in.

1194
01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:15,519
Speaker 9: And so what happens inside of China was what was

1195
01:14:15,560 --> 01:14:18,640
Speaker 9: happening everywhere else in the world, which is that as

1196
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:22,439
Speaker 9: labor saving technology begins to be implemented and you know,

1197
01:14:22,560 --> 01:14:25,599
Speaker 9: a bunch of services refused to be turned into new

1198
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:29,000
Speaker 9: goods to like bolster the ranks industrial working class. You know,

1199
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:30,479
Speaker 9: you get what's happened in the US, which is this

1200
01:14:30,479 --> 01:14:35,519
Speaker 9: this full transition to service economy shit that doesn't actually

1201
01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:37,320
Speaker 9: really grow. And you know, if if you look, if

1202
01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:39,599
Speaker 9: you look at Chinese growth rates, like they've been slowing

1203
01:14:39,680 --> 01:14:42,280
Speaker 9: for a decade, actually a little bit longer than a decade.

1204
01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:44,560
Speaker 9: And so you know, as China was integrated to the

1205
01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:47,640
Speaker 9: global economy, it too became caught in this cycle of

1206
01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:51,840
Speaker 9: industrial booms where you know, you get an industrial boom

1207
01:14:51,960 --> 01:14:54,519
Speaker 9: where you have a country with favorable exchange rates, the

1208
01:14:54,680 --> 01:14:58,519
Speaker 9: stallar that inevitably sets off, you know, the economies of

1209
01:14:58,560 --> 01:15:01,040
Speaker 9: the bad end of the exchange rate to collapse as

1210
01:15:01,120 --> 01:15:03,240
Speaker 9: they're forced to bear the way to global lower capacity.

1211
01:15:03,960 --> 01:15:07,439
Speaker 9: As as I've mentioned one hundred billion times on this show,

1212
01:15:07,479 --> 01:15:09,400
Speaker 9: it is the one thing I will make sure every

1213
01:15:09,400 --> 01:15:13,120
Speaker 9: it could happen here listener will be able to explain

1214
01:15:13,280 --> 01:15:18,080
Speaker 9: the Plaza Accords and the Reverse Plaza Cords. You know,

1215
01:15:18,080 --> 01:15:19,439
Speaker 9: but this is sort of this is sort of what

1216
01:15:19,479 --> 01:15:21,800
Speaker 9: the Reverse Plazai Cords and the Plaza Cords were about,

1217
01:15:21,880 --> 01:15:23,920
Speaker 9: was the US. This is the last time the US

1218
01:15:24,040 --> 01:15:26,920
Speaker 9: tried to, you know, use its just sort of like

1219
01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:31,639
Speaker 9: pure political power and military might to be like, eat shit,

1220
01:15:31,720 --> 01:15:33,639
Speaker 9: I'm going to force all of your countries to fuck

1221
01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:36,120
Speaker 9: with your currency so that our manufacturing economy will come back.

1222
01:15:36,760 --> 01:15:40,360
Speaker 9: And again, the US did that successfully and the Japanese

1223
01:15:40,360 --> 01:15:43,479
Speaker 9: economy collapsed because we'd needcap Japanese economy to do it right.

1224
01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:47,080
Speaker 9: And to some extent, Trump is attempting the farce as

1225
01:15:47,160 --> 01:15:50,640
Speaker 9: farce version of this with with these steel teriffs. Right

1226
01:15:50,640 --> 01:15:53,599
Speaker 9: to some extent, these tariffs are his attempts to pull

1227
01:15:53,680 --> 01:15:57,080
Speaker 9: the Reagan maneuver of Okay, we can just like force

1228
01:15:57,120 --> 01:16:01,160
Speaker 9: other countries to lower their capacity and increase our capacity

1229
01:16:01,160 --> 01:16:05,040
Speaker 9: at their expense. The problem is that, again, this production

1230
01:16:05,200 --> 01:16:09,000
Speaker 9: is zero sum, and if you do this, it will

1231
01:16:09,040 --> 01:16:14,160
Speaker 9: annihilate the rest of the global economy. And this is

1232
01:16:14,240 --> 01:16:18,200
Speaker 9: the sort of context behind all of the stuff that

1233
01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:21,120
Speaker 9: we've been seeing for the last like thirty years, which

1234
01:16:21,160 --> 01:16:25,160
Speaker 9: that actual profit rates have been collapsing for ages, and

1235
01:16:25,240 --> 01:16:29,800
Speaker 9: right now we're in the middle of a just unbelievably

1236
01:16:30,000 --> 01:16:35,320
Speaker 9: hideously staggeringly massive bubble that is maintaining the sort of

1237
01:16:35,439 --> 01:16:40,519
Speaker 9: last like fake vestiges of economic growth where billions and

1238
01:16:40,520 --> 01:16:43,400
Speaker 9: billions and billions of dollars have been sunk into all

1239
01:16:43,439 --> 01:16:46,000
Speaker 9: of this AI bullshit, and it's you know, like the

1240
01:16:46,360 --> 01:16:50,400
Speaker 9: tech driven AI is a significant specifically, specifically the AI

1241
01:16:50,479 --> 01:16:54,200
Speaker 9: stuff is a significant portion of total US economic growth.

1242
01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:57,519
Speaker 9: If you want to listen to why that's all going

1243
01:16:57,560 --> 01:17:01,760
Speaker 9: to go to shit, turn on effectively literally any episode

1244
01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:06,800
Speaker 9: of COOLSI and Media's own Exitron's podcast Better Offline and

1245
01:17:06,840 --> 01:17:09,559
Speaker 9: you will you will hear a lot about this. But

1246
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:12,040
Speaker 9: you know, this has been that, like tech has been

1247
01:17:12,040 --> 01:17:14,520
Speaker 9: sort of the escape strategy of the United States. Traditionally,

1248
01:17:14,680 --> 01:17:17,920
Speaker 9: it's going to implode, it's going to do tremendous damage

1249
01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:22,000
Speaker 9: to everyone. But in the remains of that, and in

1250
01:17:22,040 --> 01:17:25,240
Speaker 9: this world in which profit rates are declining, and in

1251
01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:28,160
Speaker 9: this world in which increasing portions of the population are

1252
01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:32,080
Speaker 9: being spat out of the capitalist production cycle, in which

1253
01:17:32,200 --> 01:17:36,760
Speaker 9: increasing percentages of the world population are being kicked into

1254
01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:41,000
Speaker 9: an informal economy, and in this world of generalized overproduction

1255
01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:45,280
Speaker 9: under consumption, what's happening is that there is an enormous

1256
01:17:45,320 --> 01:17:48,400
Speaker 9: effort to get everyone to think that this is because

1257
01:17:48,439 --> 01:17:52,000
Speaker 9: of very specific tendencies of like the bad government over there,

1258
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:55,880
Speaker 9: right that you know, over capacity and steel. Oh, it's

1259
01:17:55,960 --> 01:17:58,320
Speaker 9: just because the like the evil communist government in China

1260
01:17:58,520 --> 01:18:02,280
Speaker 9: is cheating at capital by giving their companies money, and

1261
01:18:02,320 --> 01:18:04,439
Speaker 9: so we're gonna do tariffs on them instead of that.

1262
01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:07,160
Speaker 9: And again, like it's easier for these academics to make

1263
01:18:07,160 --> 01:18:09,840
Speaker 9: this argument because there is kind of stuff going on, right,

1264
01:18:10,360 --> 01:18:14,160
Speaker 9: because there is this sort of cadure evaluation stuff, because

1265
01:18:14,200 --> 01:18:17,200
Speaker 9: there is to some extensi a subsidization of steel production.

1266
01:18:17,720 --> 01:18:20,720
Speaker 9: They can present this boogeyman to sort of pin what

1267
01:18:20,920 --> 01:18:25,960
Speaker 9: is really a global overproduction and under consumption crisis onto

1268
01:18:26,400 --> 01:18:29,600
Speaker 9: just you know, it's just as government we don't like.

1269
01:18:29,680 --> 01:18:34,640
Speaker 9: And then you can sort of implement these ultranationalists tariff policies.

1270
01:18:35,240 --> 01:18:40,840
Speaker 9: It's a way of deflecting the blame from capitalism onto

1271
01:18:40,920 --> 01:18:44,400
Speaker 9: another country and using nationalism to paper over the actual

1272
01:18:44,400 --> 01:18:49,439
Speaker 9: economic contradictions of capital. And if you want to escape that,

1273
01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:52,280
Speaker 9: it's not enough to sort of just get rid of

1274
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:55,120
Speaker 9: Trump and go back to the previous retrade regime. You

1275
01:18:55,240 --> 01:18:59,320
Speaker 9: have to actually structurally change the thing at the center

1276
01:18:59,360 --> 01:19:01,120
Speaker 9: of all of this, which is the wage relation.

1277
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:02,000
Speaker 1: Right.

1278
01:19:02,520 --> 01:19:07,600
Speaker 9: You have to fundamentally change the fact that this economy,

1279
01:19:07,840 --> 01:19:11,519
Speaker 9: the entire economy, is based on there being classes of

1280
01:19:11,560 --> 01:19:14,400
Speaker 9: people who make money from owning things, and that there's

1281
01:19:14,439 --> 01:19:17,880
Speaker 9: an entire class of people whose labor is stolen every

1282
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:20,559
Speaker 9: single day so that those other people can make money

1283
01:19:20,560 --> 01:19:23,320
Speaker 9: by owning things who do all of the actual work.

1284
01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:29,000
Speaker 9: And that's what's actually fundamentally at stake here. It is

1285
01:19:29,040 --> 01:19:33,120
Speaker 9: this question of are we going to continue to do

1286
01:19:33,200 --> 01:19:36,679
Speaker 9: tariff bullshit or are we going to take power from

1287
01:19:36,760 --> 01:19:41,000
Speaker 9: the people who caused all of this? From Trump, from

1288
01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:44,200
Speaker 9: Elon Musk, from all of the billionaires, from feel from

1289
01:19:44,240 --> 01:19:46,120
Speaker 9: all of the tech billionaires that funded them, from all

1290
01:19:46,160 --> 01:19:49,880
Speaker 9: of the Republican Party Cook Breathern networks. Are we going

1291
01:19:50,000 --> 01:19:54,840
Speaker 9: to destroy these people completely by getting rid of the

1292
01:19:54,920 --> 01:19:59,360
Speaker 9: social relations of capital that make this all possible. Or

1293
01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:02,320
Speaker 9: are we going to to sit here and let them

1294
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:05,880
Speaker 9: continue to produce AI videos of them shitting all over

1295
01:20:06,000 --> 01:20:08,880
Speaker 9: us while they take all of our money and commit

1296
01:20:08,960 --> 01:20:12,320
Speaker 9: an ethnic cleansing and continue to fund genocides abroad.

1297
01:20:29,080 --> 01:20:31,639
Speaker 4: Hi, everyone, and welcome to the show. It's me James

1298
01:20:31,640 --> 01:20:34,200
Speaker 4: today and I'm very lucky to be joined again by

1299
01:20:34,320 --> 01:20:38,200
Speaker 4: eric A Mesa, who's the Borderlands coordinator for the Sierra Club. Eric,

1300
01:20:38,240 --> 01:20:38,720
Speaker 4: how are you doing.

1301
01:20:39,000 --> 01:20:40,120
Speaker 1: I'm doing okay, Jans.

1302
01:20:40,120 --> 01:20:42,880
Speaker 4: Thanks for us for the invitation, Yeah, thank you for

1303
01:20:43,280 --> 01:20:45,680
Speaker 4: joining us. Sadly, we don't have a lot of good

1304
01:20:45,720 --> 01:20:49,000
Speaker 4: stuff to talk about right now. It's pretty difficult time

1305
01:20:49,040 --> 01:20:51,840
Speaker 4: in the borderlands. But maybe we could start off with

1306
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:54,840
Speaker 4: something that I've reported on briefly in our weekly news show.

1307
01:20:55,120 --> 01:21:00,600
Speaker 4: The Border Patrol is currently soliciting comment for its plans

1308
01:21:00,640 --> 01:21:04,679
Speaker 4: to build for the wall through the out Tide Mountain

1309
01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:08,280
Speaker 4: Wilderness and other areas west of Tikati, right, could you

1310
01:21:08,320 --> 01:21:11,080
Speaker 4: explain a little bit about what they're proposing and what

1311
01:21:11,200 --> 01:21:12,400
Speaker 4: consequences that will be.

1312
01:21:12,680 --> 01:21:15,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, hi, everybody so happy to be here and

1313
01:21:16,160 --> 01:21:19,360
Speaker 1: not so happy to be sharing the news. But so

1314
01:21:19,479 --> 01:21:24,040
Speaker 1: what the announcement was recently by the Border Patrol, especially

1315
01:21:24,080 --> 01:21:27,920
Speaker 1: on the San Diego area, is the announcement of the

1316
01:21:28,080 --> 01:21:33,160
Speaker 1: approximately nine point seven miles of new border barrier system

1317
01:21:33,920 --> 01:21:38,080
Speaker 1: and on top of that, over fifty one miles of

1318
01:21:38,120 --> 01:21:42,880
Speaker 1: what they call now system attributes and this is going

1319
01:21:42,920 --> 01:21:47,200
Speaker 1: to Kabacuche impact on the area. This is going to

1320
01:21:47,280 --> 01:21:50,960
Speaker 1: be about two point nine miles west of the Cut

1321
01:21:51,120 --> 01:21:54,760
Speaker 1: port of entry, going through an area that it is

1322
01:21:54,960 --> 01:22:00,439
Speaker 1: very remote mountain region and some of people and this

1323
01:22:00,720 --> 01:22:03,840
Speaker 1: are more familiar than I am. I've actually never been,

1324
01:22:04,080 --> 01:22:07,800
Speaker 1: but I've been talking to some of the local organizations,

1325
01:22:07,840 --> 01:22:12,320
Speaker 1: the new humanitarian aid in the region, and I know

1326
01:22:12,439 --> 01:22:15,080
Speaker 1: the Tekate Peak is in that area, and then you

1327
01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:19,439
Speaker 1: start going west into these beautiful mountains that are also

1328
01:22:19,720 --> 01:22:23,599
Speaker 1: the birthplace of the Tepana River. That's exactly the area

1329
01:22:23,640 --> 01:22:27,080
Speaker 1: where it's going to go. So right now, CVPS accepting

1330
01:22:27,160 --> 01:22:30,479
Speaker 1: comments and asking people in the community what kind of

1331
01:22:30,640 --> 01:22:34,920
Speaker 1: concerns do they have concerns in regards of the environmental

1332
01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:38,919
Speaker 1: impacts of a project like this, what kind of social

1333
01:22:39,200 --> 01:22:43,439
Speaker 1: and economical impacts? So they open up this section on

1334
01:22:43,479 --> 01:22:47,719
Speaker 1: their website with an email address where people can share

1335
01:22:47,840 --> 01:22:51,080
Speaker 1: some of these concerns. As you mentioned, and part of

1336
01:22:51,120 --> 01:22:55,720
Speaker 1: an environmental organization, but we also have all kinds of

1337
01:22:55,760 --> 01:22:59,920
Speaker 1: concerns for a project like this, including the border barrier

1338
01:23:00,240 --> 01:23:04,400
Speaker 1: and the system attributes, which are very poorly described for

1339
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:07,920
Speaker 1: what they mean. Some of the things that they mentioned

1340
01:23:07,960 --> 01:23:14,560
Speaker 1: as system attributes is the increase of lighting, infrastructure, surveillance equipment,

1341
01:23:14,960 --> 01:23:20,080
Speaker 1: and new roads for access for border patrol vehicles. So

1342
01:23:20,160 --> 01:23:22,640
Speaker 1: one of the things that we're going to expect that

1343
01:23:22,680 --> 01:23:26,439
Speaker 1: we have seen in other areas is more blasting through

1344
01:23:26,439 --> 01:23:29,800
Speaker 1: the mountain, especially on areas where the mountains is so

1345
01:23:30,720 --> 01:23:34,240
Speaker 1: uneven the terrain, there is a lot of heavy machinery

1346
01:23:34,479 --> 01:23:37,960
Speaker 1: it has to come into those places to start bulldozing

1347
01:23:38,680 --> 01:23:41,920
Speaker 1: to level the terrain so they can start building this

1348
01:23:42,120 --> 01:23:45,880
Speaker 1: border wall. So we can expect some of that, and

1349
01:23:46,040 --> 01:23:49,040
Speaker 1: with that come a lot of issues because there's going

1350
01:23:49,120 --> 01:23:51,960
Speaker 1: to be the need to start drilling wells at the

1351
01:23:52,000 --> 01:23:55,920
Speaker 1: border to extract the water from mixing the concrete for

1352
01:23:56,000 --> 01:23:59,240
Speaker 1: the foundation. If there was any road out there, they're

1353
01:23:59,240 --> 01:24:02,120
Speaker 1: going to probably widen the road two or three times

1354
01:24:02,400 --> 01:24:06,439
Speaker 1: to allow this. Having machinery to access these remote areas,

1355
01:24:07,120 --> 01:24:11,000
Speaker 1: this is just going to be the beginning, just setting

1356
01:24:11,080 --> 01:24:15,720
Speaker 1: up the panels. But whenever you go to these places

1357
01:24:15,760 --> 01:24:19,960
Speaker 1: and start disturbing the native soil, you can expect all

1358
01:24:20,040 --> 01:24:25,480
Speaker 1: kinds of consequences in regards so invasive species of plants.

1359
01:24:25,520 --> 01:24:31,480
Speaker 1: You can also expect so floating and removal of native vegetation.

1360
01:24:31,760 --> 01:24:34,519
Speaker 1: In some cases, there is some species that are rare

1361
01:24:34,600 --> 01:24:38,200
Speaker 1: on the area that having these impacts you know, can

1362
01:24:38,240 --> 01:24:41,240
Speaker 1: be long lasting for them to be able to recover.

1363
01:24:41,320 --> 01:24:44,280
Speaker 1: If they're able to do so the area on the

1364
01:24:44,360 --> 01:24:46,280
Speaker 1: south side of the border, there is also an area

1365
01:24:46,320 --> 01:24:49,680
Speaker 1: where animals need to be moving back on course, so

1366
01:24:50,360 --> 01:24:55,000
Speaker 1: species like the native mule deer, a colony that leaves there.

1367
01:24:55,840 --> 01:24:59,639
Speaker 1: There is a mountain lion and other species of mammals

1368
01:24:59,720 --> 01:25:04,760
Speaker 1: pre much everything that is for inches, why it's not

1369
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:06,599
Speaker 1: going to be able to make it do that border

1370
01:25:06,640 --> 01:25:10,280
Speaker 1: will Yeah. So yeah, we're just raising these concerns and

1371
01:25:10,360 --> 01:25:13,679
Speaker 1: sharing with the community so they're able to also as well.

1372
01:25:14,120 --> 01:25:17,360
Speaker 1: And an email to CVP crostoms and water but no

1373
01:25:17,680 --> 01:25:21,120
Speaker 1: and express these concerns and also to remember that these

1374
01:25:21,160 --> 01:25:26,160
Speaker 1: areas have been sacred size for the indigenous communities Diamond Memorial,

1375
01:25:26,320 --> 01:25:31,320
Speaker 1: so we might lose some very sacred sides for the

1376
01:25:31,439 --> 01:25:33,120
Speaker 1: tribes forever.

1377
01:25:33,760 --> 01:25:35,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like I know the topic ta cut the mountain

1378
01:25:35,800 --> 01:25:40,519
Speaker 4: has been sacred to Kumiai. People believe it's Tuma in Kumiai,

1379
01:25:40,680 --> 01:25:42,519
Speaker 4: but it's been sacred to them for as you say,

1380
01:25:42,640 --> 01:25:45,240
Speaker 4: much longer than this has been the United States.

1381
01:25:45,400 --> 01:25:45,960
Speaker 1: That's correct.

1382
01:25:46,520 --> 01:25:48,400
Speaker 4: You and I have both seen it in different places.

1383
01:25:48,479 --> 01:25:48,599
Speaker 1: Right.

1384
01:25:48,640 --> 01:25:53,400
Speaker 4: The damage that the border will does not just to people.

1385
01:25:53,800 --> 01:25:57,880
Speaker 4: I've seen mule deer running along it like trying to

1386
01:25:57,960 --> 01:25:59,760
Speaker 4: the clearly trying to find a way through. Right, this

1387
01:25:59,840 --> 01:26:04,559
Speaker 4: is habitual pathway. There are some areas near, very very

1388
01:26:04,640 --> 01:26:06,160
Speaker 4: near the boarder, like within one hundred yards of the border,

1389
01:26:06,160 --> 01:26:08,639
Speaker 4: where there are naturally occurring creeks and little ponds which

1390
01:26:08,640 --> 01:26:11,600
Speaker 4: will hold water at a time when water can be

1391
01:26:11,680 --> 01:26:14,719
Speaker 4: very hard to come across here. And so I've seen

1392
01:26:14,840 --> 01:26:19,000
Speaker 4: deer kind of distraught almost trying to get to this

1393
01:26:19,040 --> 01:26:21,360
Speaker 4: place where they've obviously learned that they can get water,

1394
01:26:21,520 --> 01:26:24,160
Speaker 4: but now they can't. It's really heartbreaking, on top of

1395
01:26:24,200 --> 01:26:27,640
Speaker 4: all the other cruelty that it does. I suppose we

1396
01:26:27,640 --> 01:26:29,840
Speaker 4: should address, Like I'm not sure how much we can

1397
01:26:29,880 --> 01:26:33,639
Speaker 4: accomplish by the comment period, right, but it has value nonetheless,

1398
01:26:33,720 --> 01:26:36,439
Speaker 4: like trying to do something, I think it has value.

1399
01:26:36,920 --> 01:26:39,479
Speaker 4: It shows that we didn't let this just happen.

1400
01:26:40,120 --> 01:26:43,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. I honestly am not very hopeful from

1401
01:26:44,040 --> 01:26:47,040
Speaker 1: those common periods because this is not the first time

1402
01:26:47,160 --> 01:26:51,479
Speaker 1: they're asking the community to provide input, and with past

1403
01:26:51,560 --> 01:26:55,439
Speaker 1: experiences that we have organized in all other areas, other

1404
01:26:55,479 --> 01:26:59,240
Speaker 1: segments of the world, even in all states, we haven't

1405
01:26:59,280 --> 01:27:03,720
Speaker 1: get a response even or an acknowledgment of these concerns.

1406
01:27:04,120 --> 01:27:07,720
Speaker 1: So Dalva itself is really concerning, but I think it

1407
01:27:07,800 --> 01:27:11,479
Speaker 1: is important that the communities around these areas are aware

1408
01:27:11,760 --> 01:27:16,000
Speaker 1: about this and they get involved, and that there is

1409
01:27:16,040 --> 01:27:21,120
Speaker 1: this community sentiment against this abuse of power that the

1410
01:27:21,160 --> 01:27:24,599
Speaker 1: administration continues to do, and the border lands and using

1411
01:27:24,640 --> 01:27:28,360
Speaker 1: them as the sacrifice zone as these testing grounds for

1412
01:27:28,560 --> 01:27:33,679
Speaker 1: what can potentially continue to happen or expand not only

1413
01:27:33,720 --> 01:27:36,519
Speaker 1: on the border but in other series, like we are

1414
01:27:36,640 --> 01:27:40,000
Speaker 1: seeing with the span of militarization nowadays.

1415
01:27:40,280 --> 01:27:42,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely, like all the stuff that is really bad

1416
01:27:42,800 --> 01:27:45,639
Speaker 4: in America right now, like it started at the border,

1417
01:27:45,800 --> 01:27:48,599
Speaker 4: that's right. People are seeing it in their communities now,

1418
01:27:48,640 --> 01:27:50,880
Speaker 4: but like we've been seeing it where we live for

1419
01:27:50,920 --> 01:27:53,320
Speaker 4: a long time. Can we talk a little bit about

1420
01:27:53,520 --> 01:27:57,040
Speaker 4: there's been some other construction right then, with San Diego

1421
01:27:57,120 --> 01:27:59,400
Speaker 4: is not the only place right now that there's a

1422
01:27:59,400 --> 01:28:03,679
Speaker 4: significant Dieditetree allocation to construction a border barrier, and there's

1423
01:28:03,720 --> 01:28:06,760
Speaker 4: more construction east of San Diego.

1424
01:28:06,439 --> 01:28:10,880
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's that's right. Most of the construction that

1425
01:28:11,040 --> 01:28:14,760
Speaker 1: is happening right now, it was with all funding that

1426
01:28:15,040 --> 01:28:19,440
Speaker 1: was from the twenty twenty one funds that were available

1427
01:28:20,120 --> 01:28:23,559
Speaker 1: since the first Rump administration, So we were hoping that

1428
01:28:23,560 --> 01:28:26,160
Speaker 1: that was going to be like the end of the funding.

1429
01:28:26,800 --> 01:28:31,960
Speaker 1: But since the proposal and passing of the quote unquote

1430
01:28:31,960 --> 01:28:36,160
Speaker 1: big beautiful Bill, we've got to remind ourselves that now

1431
01:28:36,200 --> 01:28:42,720
Speaker 1: the administration has allocated forty six point five billion dollars

1432
01:28:42,880 --> 01:28:50,040
Speaker 1: for border security, and that includes border barriers and system attributes,

1433
01:28:50,200 --> 01:28:54,040
Speaker 1: so pretty much anything related to border security right now,

1434
01:28:54,080 --> 01:28:56,200
Speaker 1: they have the funding to do it. They pretty much

1435
01:28:56,280 --> 01:28:59,720
Speaker 1: out the funding to put a double wall across the

1436
01:28:59,800 --> 01:29:03,800
Speaker 1: whole US Mexico border. Yeah, so that's that's huge. You know,

1437
01:29:04,400 --> 01:29:08,000
Speaker 1: In recent days, we got a new wave of contracts

1438
01:29:08,040 --> 01:29:12,560
Speaker 1: that were awarded. In October ten, we got this announcement

1439
01:29:12,840 --> 01:29:17,000
Speaker 1: that out of this funding, the forty six point five billion,

1440
01:29:17,080 --> 01:29:20,280
Speaker 1: they are located for a little bit over four billion,

1441
01:29:20,600 --> 01:29:24,120
Speaker 1: and this will fund them two hundred and thirty miles

1442
01:29:24,439 --> 01:29:29,080
Speaker 1: of new physical barriers and four hundred miles of surveillance

1443
01:29:29,160 --> 01:29:34,920
Speaker 1: technology across the US Mexico border from California New Texas.

1444
01:29:35,160 --> 01:29:39,800
Speaker 1: That's and they put up a new section on their

1445
01:29:39,840 --> 01:29:43,680
Speaker 1: website where there is a map you can navigate. It's

1446
01:29:43,720 --> 01:29:47,080
Speaker 1: an interactive map that shows every single section of the

1447
01:29:47,160 --> 01:29:51,479
Speaker 1: border and what they're planning to do with and as

1448
01:29:51,479 --> 01:29:54,880
Speaker 1: surreal as it sounds, they are planning to double up

1449
01:29:54,920 --> 01:29:58,360
Speaker 1: the wall. So in some places, in remote areas in

1450
01:29:58,360 --> 01:30:03,559
Speaker 1: the desert, like in organ Pai National Monument or Caveca

1451
01:30:03,600 --> 01:30:08,720
Speaker 1: Prieta in Arizona. In those areas, there is plans to

1452
01:30:08,800 --> 01:30:12,679
Speaker 1: build a secondary wall. So on top of the thirty

1453
01:30:12,720 --> 01:30:15,800
Speaker 1: food barrier that they have, they're planning to do a

1454
01:30:15,840 --> 01:30:16,759
Speaker 1: second one.

1455
01:30:17,000 --> 01:30:19,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, we have that semi seedarl right, we have a

1456
01:30:19,680 --> 01:30:20,880
Speaker 4: double thirty foot barrier.

1457
01:30:21,000 --> 01:30:21,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1458
01:30:21,520 --> 01:30:26,440
Speaker 4: The Biden administration used it to corral people seeking asylum.

1459
01:30:26,520 --> 01:30:28,879
Speaker 4: Right that they kept them in between the two walls

1460
01:30:29,280 --> 01:30:32,000
Speaker 4: and then denied that they were in detention. I don't

1461
01:30:32,000 --> 01:30:34,120
Speaker 4: know if we'll see that again, but like I guess

1462
01:30:34,160 --> 01:30:37,120
Speaker 4: just from my own experience, you know, participating in util

1463
01:30:37,120 --> 01:30:39,800
Speaker 4: aid along the border, like those remote desert areas are

1464
01:30:39,840 --> 01:30:43,240
Speaker 4: where people go. When we build wall in Otai, right,

1465
01:30:43,479 --> 01:30:48,080
Speaker 4: when we continue to detain and turn people back in

1466
01:30:48,280 --> 01:30:51,240
Speaker 4: less remote areas, they will take the risk of going

1467
01:30:51,240 --> 01:30:54,559
Speaker 4: to a more remote area and forcing people into those

1468
01:30:54,600 --> 01:30:58,920
Speaker 4: remote areas and then constructing barriers there too, is just

1469
01:30:58,960 --> 01:31:00,680
Speaker 4: going to cause more deaths. Said, it's not going to

1470
01:31:00,760 --> 01:31:05,439
Speaker 4: stop people trying to come because there are things that

1471
01:31:05,439 --> 01:31:08,000
Speaker 4: they are living which are terrible, but it will mean

1472
01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:09,840
Speaker 4: that they get stuck out there in the heat without

1473
01:31:09,840 --> 01:31:10,920
Speaker 4: water for longer rain.

1474
01:31:11,560 --> 01:31:14,680
Speaker 1: That's correct game. So exactly what you said people in

1475
01:31:14,760 --> 01:31:18,799
Speaker 1: San Diego in like the border in Otai, you already

1476
01:31:18,840 --> 01:31:21,840
Speaker 1: have the double walls, so you know, like having this

1477
01:31:22,040 --> 01:31:25,400
Speaker 1: hyper mac miilitarized area and how that is going to

1478
01:31:25,479 --> 01:31:28,879
Speaker 1: expand and the consequences of that is, as you mentioned,

1479
01:31:28,880 --> 01:31:33,559
Speaker 1: you push people out further more remote areas, and two

1480
01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:36,519
Speaker 1: things happen by doing that. First and most important, more

1481
01:31:36,560 --> 01:31:41,160
Speaker 1: people die. But also remember that these areas, like these

1482
01:31:41,200 --> 01:31:45,640
Speaker 1: remote areas were also like semi priestine wildlife environments that

1483
01:31:45,840 --> 01:31:49,920
Speaker 1: you never had humans moving through before. Now, as people

1484
01:31:49,960 --> 01:31:52,920
Speaker 1: have been pushed to these remote areas, you have this

1485
01:31:53,080 --> 01:31:56,519
Speaker 1: human traffic and not only migrants moving through, but you

1486
01:31:56,560 --> 01:31:59,679
Speaker 1: also have the border patrol chasing these migrants. And now

1487
01:31:59,720 --> 01:32:03,160
Speaker 1: you have border patrol wanting to build new roads to

1488
01:32:03,280 --> 01:32:07,919
Speaker 1: these wilderness areas. And all of these just gives building

1489
01:32:08,040 --> 01:32:12,720
Speaker 1: up into what's already a very fragmented landscape. So by

1490
01:32:12,760 --> 01:32:17,599
Speaker 1: adding all these quote unquote system attributes, because you're pushing

1491
01:32:17,920 --> 01:32:22,160
Speaker 1: and pushing people further and building these doggle walls, it's

1492
01:32:22,280 --> 01:32:28,200
Speaker 1: just going to end the last of the remaining wildlife

1493
01:32:28,600 --> 01:32:33,240
Speaker 1: remote migration corridors as well. So the impacts that this

1494
01:32:33,439 --> 01:32:34,639
Speaker 1: is going to help are huge.

1495
01:32:34,920 --> 01:32:38,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, for like all living creatures. As you said,

1496
01:32:38,400 --> 01:32:41,000
Speaker 4: let's take a break, Eric, we'll come back and talk

1497
01:32:41,040 --> 01:32:55,599
Speaker 4: about it small. All right, we are back. Let's talk

1498
01:32:55,600 --> 01:32:59,720
Speaker 4: about like how people are organizing right like at this

1499
01:32:59,800 --> 01:33:02,760
Speaker 4: time time when it does seem really bleak at the

1500
01:33:02,760 --> 01:33:06,120
Speaker 4: border lands, Like the Trump administration didn't really construct very

1501
01:33:06,200 --> 01:33:10,080
Speaker 4: much war in its first iteration. It did construct a bit,

1502
01:33:10,320 --> 01:33:13,080
Speaker 4: but not as much as it wanted to. And you

1503
01:33:13,120 --> 01:33:15,479
Speaker 4: and I are both very familiar with the consequences that

1504
01:33:15,520 --> 01:33:18,760
Speaker 4: has had, right Like it has caused more people to die.

1505
01:33:19,000 --> 01:33:23,640
Speaker 4: The Biden administration continue constructing and quote unquote repairing border barriers.

1506
01:33:24,360 --> 01:33:28,320
Speaker 4: They also pioneered outdoor attention, and like it just seems

1507
01:33:28,360 --> 01:33:31,240
Speaker 4: like things with whoever gets elected, but more rapidly under

1508
01:33:31,280 --> 01:33:35,960
Speaker 4: Republicans get worse. What are people able to do? When

1509
01:33:36,000 --> 01:33:37,600
Speaker 4: We've spoken about this a lot on this show, but

1510
01:33:38,000 --> 01:33:39,479
Speaker 4: I'd love to hear your perspective too.

1511
01:33:40,240 --> 01:33:44,560
Speaker 1: It's been hard, honestly as a person working on environmental

1512
01:33:44,640 --> 01:33:50,719
Speaker 1: issues in the border because definitely, like the losers are

1513
01:33:51,640 --> 01:33:54,000
Speaker 1: much more than the wind sometimes, so that can be

1514
01:33:54,040 --> 01:33:58,000
Speaker 1: dis hard to end. Yeah, there has been some glimpses

1515
01:33:58,040 --> 01:34:01,479
Speaker 1: of hope. I think one of the things that we

1516
01:34:01,560 --> 01:34:05,639
Speaker 1: did here in Arizona that was definitely felt really good

1517
01:34:05,720 --> 01:34:08,200
Speaker 1: and gave us some hope is when the governor of

1518
01:34:08,240 --> 01:34:13,160
Speaker 1: Arizona decided to put some chipping containers and make its

1519
01:34:13,200 --> 01:34:17,400
Speaker 1: own makeshift wall. So a bunch of people really came

1520
01:34:17,479 --> 01:34:21,200
Speaker 1: together on the community outrage because this was just some

1521
01:34:21,680 --> 01:34:25,640
Speaker 1: really dumb idea and one of the most remote, beautiful

1522
01:34:25,680 --> 01:34:28,720
Speaker 1: areas where there is not even people moving through and

1523
01:34:28,840 --> 01:34:33,000
Speaker 1: it was just going to destroy the environment. And the

1524
01:34:33,040 --> 01:34:38,040
Speaker 1: governor went out there and spent two hundred million dollars

1525
01:34:38,080 --> 01:34:42,400
Speaker 1: of taxpayers money to buy these shipping containers and build

1526
01:34:42,479 --> 01:34:47,599
Speaker 1: this border wall. So we were actually all the community

1527
01:34:47,640 --> 01:34:50,200
Speaker 1: came together, We show up out there in the and

1528
01:34:50,240 --> 01:34:52,640
Speaker 1: stopped the machines and we said no, you're not going

1529
01:34:52,720 --> 01:34:56,679
Speaker 1: to move any further. And because what they were doing

1530
01:34:56,880 --> 01:34:59,720
Speaker 1: was actually illegal, we were able to get away with it.

1531
01:35:01,439 --> 01:35:06,479
Speaker 1: Those chipping containers are gone right now. Still, Arizona taxs

1532
01:35:06,520 --> 01:35:10,559
Speaker 1: payer paid two hundred million dollars to destroy their own

1533
01:35:10,680 --> 01:35:14,200
Speaker 1: environment just let that same thing we can be using

1534
01:35:14,280 --> 01:35:19,439
Speaker 1: that money for much better things. So I think that

1535
01:35:19,840 --> 01:35:25,320
Speaker 1: president and that movement, that sense of community that was

1536
01:35:25,400 --> 01:35:31,240
Speaker 1: built after that resistance, it is, has continued after that.

1537
01:35:31,520 --> 01:35:35,320
Speaker 1: Like there is a lot of self organized grassroots efforts

1538
01:35:35,439 --> 01:35:40,200
Speaker 1: going on for border resistance, you know, and that encompasses

1539
01:35:40,280 --> 01:35:47,560
Speaker 1: humanitarian groups, environmental groups, and we are also organizing nowadays

1540
01:35:47,640 --> 01:35:53,240
Speaker 1: here in Arizona to do some direct action, try to

1541
01:35:53,280 --> 01:35:55,400
Speaker 1: show up to the center of a valley which is

1542
01:35:55,439 --> 01:35:59,040
Speaker 1: where the border construction is going, and started raising some

1543
01:35:59,200 --> 01:36:04,000
Speaker 1: national attach to this issue, trying to invite our politicians,

1544
01:36:04,160 --> 01:36:08,640
Speaker 1: start invited our our native communities to speak out and

1545
01:36:08,720 --> 01:36:13,720
Speaker 1: using different methods such as art performance, bring up some

1546
01:36:14,160 --> 01:36:18,280
Speaker 1: different strategies together. You know. Now with the technology that

1547
01:36:18,360 --> 01:36:21,000
Speaker 1: we have available, is that how can we make these

1548
01:36:21,040 --> 01:36:25,360
Speaker 1: more mainstream and tell people across the nation what's going

1549
01:36:25,400 --> 01:36:27,680
Speaker 1: on and these remote areas. You know a lot of

1550
01:36:27,800 --> 01:36:31,800
Speaker 1: people a lot of connection to this valley, and this

1551
01:36:32,040 --> 01:36:35,920
Speaker 1: is the headwaters of the Santa Cluz River, the lifeblood

1552
01:36:36,000 --> 01:36:41,400
Speaker 1: of many communities across the southern Arizona. And at the

1553
01:36:41,479 --> 01:36:43,840
Speaker 1: same time, on the other side of the coin, you know,

1554
01:36:43,960 --> 01:36:48,040
Speaker 1: there is all the oppression by the government to anything

1555
01:36:48,120 --> 01:36:51,120
Speaker 1: that is against their will. So a lot of people

1556
01:36:51,240 --> 01:36:57,000
Speaker 1: feel a little bit afraid of showing up to direct action. Yeah,

1557
01:36:57,080 --> 01:37:01,080
Speaker 1: so it is it's just walking that fine line or

1558
01:37:01,680 --> 01:37:05,240
Speaker 1: what can we get away with and still be able

1559
01:37:05,280 --> 01:37:10,360
Speaker 1: to make a ball statement and show opposition without putting

1560
01:37:10,360 --> 01:37:11,240
Speaker 1: people in danger.

1561
01:37:12,080 --> 01:37:14,000
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, I think that is something a lot of

1562
01:37:14,000 --> 01:37:17,120
Speaker 4: people are really worried about. But it is important within

1563
01:37:17,760 --> 01:37:19,639
Speaker 4: the realm of things that we can do to show

1564
01:37:19,640 --> 01:37:22,800
Speaker 4: our opposition to this and to stand in solidarity with

1565
01:37:23,680 --> 01:37:28,400
Speaker 4: the animals and the indigenous people whose sacred spaces are

1566
01:37:28,400 --> 01:37:32,320
Speaker 4: being defiled, right and with migrants whose lives are being

1567
01:37:32,320 --> 01:37:36,840
Speaker 4: put in danger by this. I wonder, like, I find

1568
01:37:36,840 --> 01:37:39,200
Speaker 4: it so strange. I guess that like we're at a

1569
01:37:39,240 --> 01:37:42,000
Speaker 4: time when reporting on migration is becoming like like a

1570
01:37:42,040 --> 01:37:45,600
Speaker 4: major growth industry. I guess, editors who I could not

1571
01:37:45,840 --> 01:37:48,080
Speaker 4: get to respond to an email or pick up the

1572
01:37:48,080 --> 01:37:50,639
Speaker 4: phone for the last four years and now commissioning pieces

1573
01:37:50,680 --> 01:37:54,120
Speaker 4: of migration. But there still seems to be like a

1574
01:37:54,160 --> 01:37:59,759
Speaker 4: blind spot about the border in the American news media.

1575
01:38:00,600 --> 01:38:02,080
Speaker 4: I don't know why that is. I don't know if

1576
01:38:02,120 --> 01:38:04,160
Speaker 4: you have ideas about why there is, But the borderlands

1577
01:38:04,160 --> 01:38:06,840
Speaker 4: are such a special place for me anyway, you know,

1578
01:38:06,880 --> 01:38:09,840
Speaker 4: I've spent nearly twenty years of my life here. Some

1579
01:38:09,920 --> 01:38:13,240
Speaker 4: of my favorite places in the world are near the border.

1580
01:38:13,920 --> 01:38:15,960
Speaker 4: I think people think of the border as like Santi Zero,

1581
01:38:16,080 --> 01:38:19,040
Speaker 4: but it contains some wonderfully remote and special places. And

1582
01:38:19,120 --> 01:38:23,479
Speaker 4: I wonder if you have thoughts on why, like the

1583
01:38:23,520 --> 01:38:27,000
Speaker 4: border isn't something that gets talked about that much on

1584
01:38:27,040 --> 01:38:27,880
Speaker 4: a national level.

1585
01:38:29,439 --> 01:38:35,440
Speaker 1: I think it does talk about, but unfortunately the narrative,

1586
01:38:35,640 --> 01:38:39,680
Speaker 1: the digitian build around it is really negative.

1587
01:38:40,160 --> 01:38:42,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's fair, and of course that's.

1588
01:38:42,520 --> 01:38:47,800
Speaker 1: With that intention, right, continue to build up this militarized

1589
01:38:47,840 --> 01:38:52,200
Speaker 1: state or sacrifice zone. And so whenever I talk with

1590
01:38:52,400 --> 01:38:55,120
Speaker 1: people that is here for the first time, you know,

1591
01:38:55,439 --> 01:38:59,360
Speaker 1: I do these group presentations for delegations that come from

1592
01:38:59,360 --> 01:39:04,200
Speaker 1: all over the to experience the Borderlands region, and they're

1593
01:39:04,240 --> 01:39:07,439
Speaker 1: like they have all these perspective, you know, for what

1594
01:39:07,479 --> 01:39:10,800
Speaker 1: they hear on the news about how horrible this is,

1595
01:39:10,960 --> 01:39:14,599
Speaker 1: and then they come here and they're like, Wow, people

1596
01:39:14,640 --> 01:39:19,240
Speaker 1: here is like really nice and we have a great experience,

1597
01:39:19,360 --> 01:39:23,920
Speaker 1: and I really inspire and it's like coming with this

1598
01:39:24,600 --> 01:39:30,760
Speaker 1: pre fabricated narrative on their minds of this wasteland sacrifice zone,

1599
01:39:30,880 --> 01:39:35,040
Speaker 1: you know, like and then going out after experience and yes,

1600
01:39:35,240 --> 01:39:38,360
Speaker 1: some of that, of course, if you go out to

1601
01:39:38,439 --> 01:39:42,479
Speaker 1: the to the border and experience the wall and the

1602
01:39:42,960 --> 01:39:45,920
Speaker 1: rolls and rolls of concerts in a wired to make

1603
01:39:46,000 --> 01:39:48,880
Speaker 1: it look like you're in a war zone. Yeah, the

1604
01:39:49,400 --> 01:39:51,760
Speaker 1: plows what you already have in your mind. You know,

1605
01:39:51,800 --> 01:39:56,040
Speaker 1: it just keeps building up the intensity. And then you

1606
01:39:56,160 --> 01:40:00,680
Speaker 1: hear the stories from people, the struggle, from my grants

1607
01:40:00,720 --> 01:40:04,000
Speaker 1: and stories from back in twenty twenty three when we

1608
01:40:04,120 --> 01:40:07,679
Speaker 1: have the search of migrants coming and all these things,

1609
01:40:07,680 --> 01:40:11,679
Speaker 1: you know, but at the end, people leaves with glimbs

1610
01:40:11,760 --> 01:40:15,040
Speaker 1: also like, wow, this place is really beautiful and a

1611
01:40:15,040 --> 01:40:18,600
Speaker 1: lot of wonderful things are happening, a lot of movements

1612
01:40:18,640 --> 01:40:23,200
Speaker 1: of people trying to organize and make it a better

1613
01:40:23,240 --> 01:40:26,599
Speaker 1: place and trying really hard to shift this narrative. You know.

1614
01:40:26,720 --> 01:40:30,920
Speaker 1: The borlands provide us a good opportunity, you know, because

1615
01:40:31,360 --> 01:40:33,960
Speaker 1: what we see today, like a friend of mine said,

1616
01:40:34,000 --> 01:40:38,200
Speaker 1: it can get worse, and it's going into that direction. Yeah, yeah,

1617
01:40:38,240 --> 01:40:42,120
Speaker 1: it's going into that direction. But at the same time,

1618
01:40:42,280 --> 01:40:45,559
Speaker 1: it gives us an opportunity as a society, you know,

1619
01:40:45,760 --> 01:40:50,080
Speaker 1: because whatever happens at the border is definitely going to

1620
01:40:50,120 --> 01:40:52,639
Speaker 1: have a ripple effect in the rest of the country.

1621
01:40:53,120 --> 01:40:57,320
Speaker 1: So we are able to figure out a way to

1622
01:40:57,360 --> 01:41:01,800
Speaker 1: shift that narrative and look at the border like like

1623
01:41:02,160 --> 01:41:05,280
Speaker 1: people that lives and experience the word there and the

1624
01:41:05,320 --> 01:41:08,719
Speaker 1: culture of the beautiful things that the border has to offer.

1625
01:41:08,920 --> 01:41:12,439
Speaker 1: Then we hope that that's going to help change a

1626
01:41:12,479 --> 01:41:14,839
Speaker 1: lot of the things that are happening in this country.

1627
01:41:14,840 --> 01:41:17,960
Speaker 1: You know, but we need to start I think organizing

1628
01:41:18,080 --> 01:41:20,799
Speaker 1: from the bottom up. Yeah, a lot of grassroots therefore

1629
01:41:20,920 --> 01:41:22,960
Speaker 1: need to be happening, and I think a lot of

1630
01:41:23,040 --> 01:41:26,759
Speaker 1: media needs to cover this. You know, we usually don't

1631
01:41:26,760 --> 01:41:28,439
Speaker 1: cover the good stories.

1632
01:41:28,000 --> 01:41:31,400
Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, you're right. Like it's funny that the

1633
01:41:31,479 --> 01:41:33,519
Speaker 4: right does cover the body, right, or that the you know,

1634
01:41:33,560 --> 01:41:36,400
Speaker 4: the Fox News kind of cardre does cover the body,

1635
01:41:36,520 --> 01:41:39,280
Speaker 4: Like I don't like the way they cover it, but like,

1636
01:41:39,960 --> 01:41:43,160
Speaker 4: the only national network guy I will see down there

1637
01:41:43,920 --> 01:41:57,720
Speaker 4: is the Fox guy for the most part. And the

1638
01:41:57,840 --> 01:42:00,439
Speaker 4: one thing I like to do with my friends, or

1639
01:42:00,439 --> 01:42:02,240
Speaker 4: like if someone comes to visit, you know, sometimes I

1640
01:42:02,280 --> 01:42:05,880
Speaker 4: have other independent journalists come visit to walk down to

1641
01:42:05,920 --> 01:42:08,559
Speaker 4: the border wall, and it seems very bleak, right because

1642
01:42:08,560 --> 01:42:10,599
Speaker 4: there's this big wall and it's covered in constantina wire,

1643
01:42:10,600 --> 01:42:12,799
Speaker 4: as you say, and maybe they are Marines or National

1644
01:42:12,800 --> 01:42:17,360
Speaker 4: Guard or Order patrol or any other leg it's people

1645
01:42:17,360 --> 01:42:20,519
Speaker 4: with guns right in different uniforms. But then if you

1646
01:42:20,560 --> 01:42:24,360
Speaker 4: turn around, you're in this really special place where you

1647
01:42:24,400 --> 01:42:26,679
Speaker 4: don't see the people and you just you can appreciate

1648
01:42:26,720 --> 01:42:29,519
Speaker 4: how beautiful it is. It's also very beautiful that, like

1649
01:42:29,560 --> 01:42:32,439
Speaker 4: you say, there's so much bottom up organizing, that there's

1650
01:42:32,520 --> 01:42:37,200
Speaker 4: so much people helping people of all different kinds. And

1651
01:42:37,360 --> 01:42:40,679
Speaker 4: that's something we also are in twenty twenty three, when

1652
01:42:41,120 --> 01:42:45,160
Speaker 4: Title forty two ended and subsequently the Biden administration detained

1653
01:42:45,160 --> 01:42:49,400
Speaker 4: people outdoors, like we saw an incredible community response of

1654
01:42:49,600 --> 01:42:53,799
Speaker 4: all different kinds of people of different political persuasions, different

1655
01:42:53,840 --> 01:42:56,559
Speaker 4: faith groups, which was a really beautiful thing. Like it's

1656
01:42:56,600 --> 01:42:59,439
Speaker 4: a thing that a lot of the rest of America

1657
01:42:59,520 --> 01:43:03,599
Speaker 4: right now I could learn from the government was brutalizing people,

1658
01:43:03,760 --> 01:43:06,400
Speaker 4: and people made that less bad. They kept them safe,

1659
01:43:06,720 --> 01:43:08,840
Speaker 4: and they'd been a lot more people who didn't make

1660
01:43:08,840 --> 01:43:11,560
Speaker 4: it throughout all attention if it wasn't for community support,

1661
01:43:11,600 --> 01:43:16,160
Speaker 4: like I want people to see that. I wonder if

1662
01:43:16,160 --> 01:43:18,679
Speaker 4: people want to support right, let's say they're not in

1663
01:43:18,760 --> 01:43:21,640
Speaker 4: the border lands. Can you think of good ways for

1664
01:43:21,680 --> 01:43:24,439
Speaker 4: them to be in solidarity, for them to even to

1665
01:43:24,560 --> 01:43:26,800
Speaker 4: experience like I know a lot of people who listen

1666
01:43:26,840 --> 01:43:30,080
Speaker 4: to this have come, like It's really wonderful for me

1667
01:43:30,840 --> 01:43:33,800
Speaker 4: to meet people when I'm not working, when I'm just

1668
01:43:33,800 --> 01:43:35,840
Speaker 4: out there in my capacity as someone who cares about

1669
01:43:35,880 --> 01:43:40,640
Speaker 4: other people, right doing water drops, doing mutul aid with migrants,

1670
01:43:40,760 --> 01:43:43,240
Speaker 4: or helping people at street release. To hear of people

1671
01:43:43,240 --> 01:43:45,280
Speaker 4: who listen to this and then decided to come from

1672
01:43:45,320 --> 01:43:47,240
Speaker 4: wherever they were and spend some time here and help, Like,

1673
01:43:47,280 --> 01:43:50,400
Speaker 4: that's a really a special thing. But you have other

1674
01:43:50,479 --> 01:43:53,400
Speaker 4: ideas on how people can can be in solidarity and

1675
01:43:53,600 --> 01:43:54,320
Speaker 4: can come and help.

1676
01:43:55,120 --> 01:43:58,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, again this question where we are and from

1677
01:43:59,160 --> 01:44:04,040
Speaker 1: different people that comes to busy. I usually recommend people

1678
01:44:04,080 --> 01:44:06,720
Speaker 1: to start with they are, you know, in their own communities,

1679
01:44:07,360 --> 01:44:12,720
Speaker 1: because there is reflections of border issues in your own community.

1680
01:44:13,720 --> 01:44:18,519
Speaker 1: There are people that are migrating that are might need

1681
01:44:18,600 --> 01:44:24,679
Speaker 1: some help. There are people that shelters and all these

1682
01:44:25,000 --> 01:44:27,599
Speaker 1: or just kind of only get involved with your local

1683
01:44:28,560 --> 01:44:31,120
Speaker 1: whatever you're passionate about. You know, it doesn't really have

1684
01:44:31,280 --> 01:44:34,720
Speaker 1: to be an environmental issue, but we are remember and

1685
01:44:35,280 --> 01:44:38,080
Speaker 1: social justice and environmental justice is the same thing.

1686
01:44:38,240 --> 01:44:44,680
Speaker 10: Yeah, we really like whatever you're passionate about, just getting involved,

1687
01:44:44,680 --> 01:44:47,800
Speaker 10: But I think the worst thing that we can do

1688
01:44:48,000 --> 01:44:50,280
Speaker 10: right now is just doing in order the fact that

1689
01:44:50,800 --> 01:44:52,320
Speaker 10: we are in a bad spot, you know.

1690
01:44:52,560 --> 01:44:55,960
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people just want to continue

1691
01:44:55,960 --> 01:45:01,200
Speaker 1: writing their comfort song wave and it's that it's gonna end,

1692
01:45:01,560 --> 01:45:04,719
Speaker 1: you know. And I think we need to not only

1693
01:45:04,760 --> 01:45:07,600
Speaker 1: think about ourselves, but we need to think about the

1694
01:45:07,680 --> 01:45:11,800
Speaker 1: generations coming ahead of us. And I think it's especially

1695
01:45:11,880 --> 01:45:15,960
Speaker 1: for the people that us already had the opportunity to

1696
01:45:16,120 --> 01:45:18,920
Speaker 1: somehow live a life, you know, but there are somes

1697
01:45:18,920 --> 01:45:21,920
Speaker 1: that are about to start a journey, and I think

1698
01:45:21,960 --> 01:45:25,600
Speaker 1: it's our responsibility to make it the best as we

1699
01:45:25,720 --> 01:45:28,880
Speaker 1: can for them as well. So whatever you're passionate about,

1700
01:45:29,040 --> 01:45:31,320
Speaker 1: and if you really want to and you're passionate about

1701
01:45:31,479 --> 01:45:35,519
Speaker 1: order related issues and you're not able to come, try

1702
01:45:35,640 --> 01:45:38,559
Speaker 1: to support, you know, like financial help is, you know,

1703
01:45:39,320 --> 01:45:41,840
Speaker 1: we like it or not. We're in a capitalist society

1704
01:45:41,880 --> 01:45:45,200
Speaker 1: and we work with financial support. So a lot of

1705
01:45:45,200 --> 01:45:48,440
Speaker 1: these events that we're creating, a lot of these outreach

1706
01:45:48,560 --> 01:45:51,840
Speaker 1: that we're doing a lot of the people, like new

1707
01:45:51,920 --> 01:45:57,160
Speaker 1: generations that need jobs, that are wanting to join, like

1708
01:45:57,479 --> 01:46:00,240
Speaker 1: let maybe a non profit work or create the own

1709
01:46:00,320 --> 01:46:04,880
Speaker 1: movement or doing something related that's going to help the community. Yeah.

1710
01:46:04,920 --> 01:46:07,599
Speaker 1: So for those if you are able, those are really

1711
01:46:07,640 --> 01:46:10,400
Speaker 1: good ways to get involved and make them change.

1712
01:46:10,880 --> 01:46:13,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely, Like there's a lot of things you can do,

1713
01:46:13,240 --> 01:46:16,000
Speaker 4: as you say, and I think it does help to

1714
01:46:16,080 --> 01:46:19,080
Speaker 4: build that networks of caring for people everywhere. Like, we

1715
01:46:19,120 --> 01:46:20,720
Speaker 4: want to live in a world where people take care

1716
01:46:20,760 --> 01:46:22,400
Speaker 4: of one another, and to do that, we have to

1717
01:46:22,800 --> 01:46:25,280
Speaker 4: start it everywhere. It's not like the border is the

1718
01:46:25,320 --> 01:46:27,680
Speaker 4: only place where bad things are happening. I know we

1719
01:46:27,800 --> 01:46:30,360
Speaker 4: draw a lot of strengths as people who live at

1720
01:46:30,360 --> 01:46:33,160
Speaker 4: the border from that solidarity, but also from seeing people

1721
01:46:33,800 --> 01:46:36,240
Speaker 4: do their own things wherever they're at. Like that is

1722
01:46:36,280 --> 01:46:39,000
Speaker 4: how we build a world where systems of oppression of

1723
01:46:40,040 --> 01:46:41,479
Speaker 4: let's able to oppress people.

1724
01:46:42,000 --> 01:46:46,000
Speaker 11: So yeah, And one of the things we see here,

1725
01:46:46,040 --> 01:46:50,240
Speaker 11: most of the decisions taken for the border are not

1726
01:46:50,400 --> 01:46:53,479
Speaker 11: taken by people from the border. A lot of these

1727
01:46:53,560 --> 01:46:58,120
Speaker 11: big all these decisions, like for example, Senator of Utah

1728
01:46:58,200 --> 01:47:00,559
Speaker 11: right now is putting up a bill for.

1729
01:47:00,800 --> 01:47:03,800
Speaker 1: The boarder to sacrifice a lot of public lands for

1730
01:47:03,960 --> 01:47:08,880
Speaker 1: new roads, and like new military installations. So it's like

1731
01:47:09,520 --> 01:47:12,799
Speaker 1: people from Utah are not directly on the border, but yeah,

1732
01:47:12,880 --> 01:47:17,240
Speaker 1: they can also send letters and comments or both these

1733
01:47:17,280 --> 01:47:21,600
Speaker 1: senators out, you know, and somebody that really cares for

1734
01:47:21,760 --> 01:47:22,480
Speaker 1: the environment.

1735
01:47:23,000 --> 01:47:27,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, if you're in Utah, your senator has been advocating

1736
01:47:27,040 --> 01:47:29,240
Speaker 4: to sell off the public lands that you own. That

1737
01:47:29,320 --> 01:47:31,040
Speaker 4: has said that, I mean their native land. It's all

1738
01:47:31,120 --> 01:47:34,840
Speaker 4: native land. It should be returned to its original custodians.

1739
01:47:34,880 --> 01:47:36,840
Speaker 4: But in the meantime, you own it and at least

1740
01:47:36,840 --> 01:47:39,519
Speaker 4: all of us can access it until Mike Lee gets

1741
01:47:39,560 --> 01:47:41,439
Speaker 4: his chance to sell it all off to his buddies

1742
01:47:41,479 --> 01:47:44,320
Speaker 4: in real estate. And like, you could be an extremely

1743
01:47:44,400 --> 01:47:46,960
Speaker 4: conservative person and we could disagree on a lot of shit,

1744
01:47:47,040 --> 01:47:49,080
Speaker 4: and I think we could find unity on that. Like,

1745
01:47:49,800 --> 01:47:53,760
Speaker 4: I do not understand how there is a constituency that

1746
01:47:53,840 --> 01:47:57,320
Speaker 4: wants to take land from the public domain and turn

1747
01:47:57,360 --> 01:48:00,600
Speaker 4: it into a military basis and or or fields and

1748
01:48:00,880 --> 01:48:03,280
Speaker 4: mcmhonsions for rich people to have as their second home.

1749
01:48:03,479 --> 01:48:07,080
Speaker 4: Like that should be it's a thing that everyone agrees on.

1750
01:48:07,200 --> 01:48:09,080
Speaker 4: And like he didn't stick the landing on it the

1751
01:48:09,080 --> 01:48:13,160
Speaker 4: first time in the reconciliation. The quote unquote, big beautiful

1752
01:48:13,200 --> 01:48:16,240
Speaker 4: Bill but I think that's a really good area towe

1753
01:48:16,280 --> 01:48:18,479
Speaker 4: engage people, folks who might not be like, yeah, I

1754
01:48:18,479 --> 01:48:21,519
Speaker 4: will show up for migrants. I think a lot of people.

1755
01:48:22,000 --> 01:48:24,479
Speaker 4: They could be people who enjoy the outdoors, people who

1756
01:48:24,560 --> 01:48:28,320
Speaker 4: just care about the environment, the Hook and Bullet crowd, like,

1757
01:48:28,479 --> 01:48:30,120
Speaker 4: there are a lot of people even if they don't

1758
01:48:30,360 --> 01:48:33,560
Speaker 4: quote unquote use public lands, like we all benefit from

1759
01:48:33,560 --> 01:48:36,479
Speaker 4: being there and future generation to benefit from them remaining

1760
01:48:37,120 --> 01:48:40,439
Speaker 4: un developed in a in a substantial way.

1761
01:48:40,840 --> 01:48:41,400
Speaker 1: That's right.

1762
01:48:41,680 --> 01:48:43,160
Speaker 4: Sorry, I just went off. And when that guy really

1763
01:48:43,160 --> 01:48:47,160
Speaker 4: pisses me off. This shit makes me so mad. Coming

1764
01:48:47,200 --> 01:48:49,559
Speaker 4: from a country that is entirely private land, it is

1765
01:48:49,600 --> 01:48:51,640
Speaker 4: to see someone being like, yeah, that's a good idea.

1766
01:48:52,240 --> 01:48:53,760
Speaker 4: It's fucking asinine.

1767
01:48:54,280 --> 01:48:54,479
Speaker 1: Eric.

1768
01:48:54,680 --> 01:48:56,840
Speaker 4: I wonder if people want to keep up with the

1769
01:48:56,880 --> 01:49:00,160
Speaker 4: Sierra Club, keep up with like, how they can the

1770
01:49:00,200 --> 01:49:02,840
Speaker 4: opposition comments If they want to know more about this

1771
01:49:03,040 --> 01:49:05,880
Speaker 4: new border construction and the impact would have, where can

1772
01:49:05,920 --> 01:49:08,439
Speaker 4: they Where can they follow along? Is their website or

1773
01:49:08,479 --> 01:49:09,120
Speaker 4: social media?

1774
01:49:09,800 --> 01:49:12,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, James, thanks to you. Yeah, we do have all

1775
01:49:12,120 --> 01:49:15,160
Speaker 1: of it. We try to engage people where they are,

1776
01:49:15,960 --> 01:49:18,760
Speaker 1: and we know social media is a powerful tool. We

1777
01:49:18,880 --> 01:49:22,479
Speaker 1: have a website Circulu Border LANs, people can look up

1778
01:49:22,560 --> 01:49:24,559
Speaker 1: some of the work that we do there. We are

1779
01:49:24,600 --> 01:49:29,760
Speaker 1: also active on social media. We are cir Club Borderlands.

1780
01:49:30,120 --> 01:49:33,120
Speaker 1: However you look at it, you're going to find find us.

1781
01:49:33,720 --> 01:49:36,680
Speaker 1: We're based out of Arizona, but we do organize in

1782
01:49:36,760 --> 01:49:40,439
Speaker 1: different states, so we're in collaboration with all organizations as

1783
01:49:40,479 --> 01:49:44,599
Speaker 1: part of a larger coalition. So even if you are

1784
01:49:44,640 --> 01:49:48,759
Speaker 1: in Texas or New Mexico, feel pretty too, very child

1785
01:49:49,640 --> 01:49:54,960
Speaker 1: and if you have any concerns ideas things that come

1786
01:49:55,040 --> 01:49:57,680
Speaker 1: up to your mind that can maakeure the border of

1787
01:49:57,720 --> 01:50:00,840
Speaker 1: airplace feel pretty for a feretty to reach out, then

1788
01:50:01,520 --> 01:50:05,479
Speaker 1: we can collaborate work together on this or LEAs connecting

1789
01:50:05,600 --> 01:50:07,760
Speaker 1: with some of the local people that are part of

1790
01:50:07,800 --> 01:50:12,479
Speaker 1: the network. Because we're always looking to make this network bigger.

1791
01:50:12,600 --> 01:50:15,559
Speaker 1: You know, I think there's trending numbers. I'm going to

1792
01:50:15,600 --> 01:50:19,559
Speaker 1: get more and more people to join this coalition in

1793
01:50:19,600 --> 01:50:23,280
Speaker 1: the different states. So even if you're not on the

1794
01:50:23,280 --> 01:50:26,360
Speaker 1: border stages, if you're in DC and you're do lobbying

1795
01:50:26,439 --> 01:50:30,840
Speaker 1: and you're into policy change, but yeah, come reach out

1796
01:50:31,400 --> 01:50:34,640
Speaker 1: and you can find us like a central website or

1797
01:50:35,160 --> 01:50:38,680
Speaker 1: an Instagram account. We also have like a grassroots mid

1798
01:50:38,800 --> 01:50:42,679
Speaker 1: airport right now called Rally for the Valley, and that's

1799
01:50:43,360 --> 01:50:46,240
Speaker 1: what we're trying to do for the San Rafile Valley

1800
01:50:46,680 --> 01:50:49,240
Speaker 1: over there. You're going to be able to find updates.

1801
01:50:49,560 --> 01:50:54,360
Speaker 1: And we created a decentralized website right now there is

1802
01:50:54,439 --> 01:50:58,720
Speaker 1: called Border Wall Resistance. I invite everybody to take a

1803
01:50:58,760 --> 01:51:01,400
Speaker 1: look at it. It is full of beautiful pictures of

1804
01:51:01,439 --> 01:51:04,720
Speaker 1: the border. When James and I were talking about how

1805
01:51:04,760 --> 01:51:07,840
Speaker 1: beautiful this place is, got to that website and you

1806
01:51:08,000 --> 01:51:11,519
Speaker 1: understand what we're talking about because it's all everts. You know,

1807
01:51:11,640 --> 01:51:14,160
Speaker 1: the border is so unique on each area. You know,

1808
01:51:14,280 --> 01:51:18,360
Speaker 1: the border it's not define but Pjuana San Diego or

1809
01:51:18,520 --> 01:51:21,679
Speaker 1: No Garlands. You know, it is just two thousand miles

1810
01:51:21,720 --> 01:51:28,280
Speaker 1: of wonderlands, so unfortunately separated by in many cases but

1811
01:51:28,600 --> 01:51:31,960
Speaker 1: this huge metal, dirty food structure.

1812
01:51:32,200 --> 01:51:32,880
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1813
01:51:32,960 --> 01:51:37,280
Speaker 1: Anyways, so that's the website, the social media for Circlub

1814
01:51:37,320 --> 01:51:40,720
Speaker 1: Borderlands and Grady for the Balance and the Border Resistance.

1815
01:51:41,080 --> 01:51:44,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely reach out you if you recently found out

1816
01:51:44,000 --> 01:51:46,320
Speaker 4: that you live within a border enforcement zone and weren't

1817
01:51:46,320 --> 01:51:48,200
Speaker 4: aware of that, because I know a lot of people

1818
01:51:48,680 --> 01:51:51,800
Speaker 4: in Chicago and other places have very recently found out

1819
01:51:51,840 --> 01:51:54,679
Speaker 4: that as far as the state is concerned that they

1820
01:51:54,680 --> 01:51:56,640
Speaker 4: too are in the borderlands. It would be good to

1821
01:51:56,640 --> 01:51:57,640
Speaker 4: build some solidarity.

1822
01:51:57,680 --> 01:52:00,839
Speaker 1: There's trying two terms of the population on these country

1823
01:52:00,920 --> 01:52:03,800
Speaker 1: leaves on the border of the launch Regent, so because

1824
01:52:03,840 --> 01:52:07,439
Speaker 1: that includes coastlines and the Great Lakes Great Lakes, so

1825
01:52:07,520 --> 01:52:09,439
Speaker 1: we're talking about a lot of community.

1826
01:52:10,000 --> 01:52:11,439
Speaker 4: Well, thank you very much for your time, Eric, We

1827
01:52:11,479 --> 01:52:13,920
Speaker 4: really appreciate it. It was a good discussion.

1828
01:52:14,479 --> 01:52:19,680
Speaker 1: Thank you, James, and hoping that continue to be in

1829
01:52:19,760 --> 01:52:23,720
Speaker 1: touch and continue organizing against all these things. And thanks

1830
01:52:23,760 --> 01:52:26,080
Speaker 1: so much for the space, and thanks for all your listeners.

1831
01:52:26,160 --> 01:52:27,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're welcome.

1832
01:52:46,320 --> 01:52:49,320
Speaker 2: Welcome back to a jacktoral dysfunction.

1833
01:52:49,560 --> 01:52:51,680
Speaker 12: Wait, that's the worst one yet, that's the worst what yet?

1834
01:52:51,720 --> 01:52:54,719
Speaker 12: Talks We did not think it could get worse, and yes,

1835
01:52:54,880 --> 01:52:55,479
Speaker 12: here we are.

1836
01:52:55,720 --> 01:52:58,400
Speaker 2: I knew it could get worse and always get worse.

1837
01:52:58,840 --> 01:52:59,800
Speaker 4: Oh quitey, nice jobs.

1838
01:53:00,600 --> 01:53:04,759
Speaker 12: This is it could happen here Executive Disorder, our weekly

1839
01:53:04,760 --> 01:53:07,360
Speaker 12: newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world,

1840
01:53:07,360 --> 01:53:09,519
Speaker 12: and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis today,

1841
01:53:09,640 --> 01:53:13,879
Speaker 12: joined by Ejaculator in Jesus right.

1842
01:53:13,840 --> 01:53:18,400
Speaker 2: Wow, Garris said, that's much worse. You made it way worse.

1843
01:53:18,400 --> 01:53:20,479
Speaker 4: How many of those videos have you not watched?

1844
01:53:20,560 --> 01:53:23,800
Speaker 2: Get I think we're all pretty behind on the required trainings.

1845
01:53:24,800 --> 01:53:26,760
Speaker 9: Labor conditions are intolerable.

1846
01:53:27,800 --> 01:53:31,640
Speaker 12: Robert Evans, James Stout, and Mio Wong. This episode, we

1847
01:53:31,680 --> 01:53:35,639
Speaker 12: are covering the week of October fifteenth to October twenty second,

1848
01:53:36,120 --> 01:53:38,000
Speaker 12: and a little bit of the week before because we

1849
01:53:38,040 --> 01:53:40,719
Speaker 12: were off in honor of the government shutdown. We ourselves

1850
01:53:40,760 --> 01:53:41,439
Speaker 12: took a week.

1851
01:53:41,280 --> 01:53:44,200
Speaker 4: Off because the CIA stopped paying us.

1852
01:53:44,200 --> 01:53:47,960
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. I've always considered us a branch

1853
01:53:48,040 --> 01:53:50,480
Speaker 2: of the US government, you know, Yeah.

1854
01:53:50,280 --> 01:53:53,400
Speaker 4: You and half of the anime people on Twitter. Robert Efens,

1855
01:53:58,760 --> 01:53:59,240
Speaker 4: We're back.

1856
01:53:59,400 --> 01:54:01,519
Speaker 12: I don't know, a little bit weird to be doing

1857
01:54:01,520 --> 01:54:04,559
Speaker 12: this White House Weekly episode knowing that there's actually less

1858
01:54:04,600 --> 01:54:08,040
Speaker 12: White House than usual there is. Trump has begun demolishing

1859
01:54:08,040 --> 01:54:09,519
Speaker 12: the East Wing of the White House to build a

1860
01:54:09,560 --> 01:54:13,000
Speaker 12: privately fund a two hundred and fifty million dollar ballroom,

1861
01:54:13,040 --> 01:54:14,439
Speaker 12: and I think we should all have a moment of

1862
01:54:14,479 --> 01:54:15,840
Speaker 12: silence for the East Wing.

1863
01:54:16,080 --> 01:54:18,240
Speaker 2: Oh I was going to say a moment of celebration,

1864
01:54:18,760 --> 01:54:22,320
Speaker 2: because now James's people can finally shake hands with the

1865
01:54:22,439 --> 01:54:26,519
Speaker 2: United States government and destroying large portions of the White House.

1866
01:54:27,479 --> 01:54:30,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, we sort it was a Volvo excavator to taste,

1867
01:54:30,520 --> 01:54:32,720
Speaker 4: so we also got these Swedes on board. I guess

1868
01:54:32,800 --> 01:54:36,120
Speaker 4: sure couldn't even find an American excavator.

1869
01:54:36,280 --> 01:54:38,720
Speaker 2: Sad we don't make things in this country anymore.

1870
01:54:39,480 --> 01:54:41,320
Speaker 12: Yeah, that's because we're still waiting for the tariffs to

1871
01:54:41,360 --> 01:54:42,920
Speaker 12: get fully fully enacted.

1872
01:54:43,600 --> 01:54:43,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1873
01:54:43,920 --> 01:54:46,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, once we get that Swedish tariff on.

1874
01:54:46,760 --> 01:54:49,880
Speaker 12: We are almost four weeks now into the government shutdown

1875
01:54:50,240 --> 01:54:53,720
Speaker 12: and there's not really a clear end in sight, and

1876
01:54:53,880 --> 01:54:57,680
Speaker 12: SNAP Benefits food stamps are set to run out in

1877
01:54:57,760 --> 01:55:01,800
Speaker 12: a little over a week on November first, Mia, Did

1878
01:55:01,800 --> 01:55:02,840
Speaker 12: you want to say something on this.

1879
01:55:03,200 --> 01:55:06,240
Speaker 9: Yeah, So we've been seeing sort of tech start to

1880
01:55:06,240 --> 01:55:08,200
Speaker 9: go out to people who are on food assistants in

1881
01:55:08,280 --> 01:55:12,320
Speaker 9: various states. There's one circulating from Minnesota that is saying

1882
01:55:12,360 --> 01:55:16,600
Speaker 9: that the food part of SNAP Benefits are going to

1883
01:55:16,680 --> 01:55:20,240
Speaker 9: shut down in a few days on November first, when

1884
01:55:20,280 --> 01:55:23,360
Speaker 9: the funding shuts down. This is a critical lifeline for

1885
01:55:23,480 --> 01:55:26,800
Speaker 9: food for an extremely large number of people, and this

1886
01:55:26,960 --> 01:55:30,640
Speaker 9: is also coming in a period where food banks are

1887
01:55:30,720 --> 01:55:36,280
Speaker 9: already being stressed by just the other cuts to SNAP

1888
01:55:36,520 --> 01:55:39,760
Speaker 9: and other food assistance programs that have already taken place.

1889
01:55:40,800 --> 01:55:45,560
Speaker 9: So yeah, we're coming to a very very critical moment

1890
01:55:45,640 --> 01:55:49,680
Speaker 9: in terms of wide scale food insecurity in this country

1891
01:55:49,920 --> 01:55:54,200
Speaker 9: for a whole bunch of the most vulnerable people in

1892
01:55:54,240 --> 01:55:59,120
Speaker 9: the country. And yeah, this is a good moment for

1893
01:55:59,480 --> 01:56:04,760
Speaker 9: if you have actual access to food, which is which

1894
01:56:04,800 --> 01:56:07,120
Speaker 9: is a very very bleak thing to be saying, but

1895
01:56:07,800 --> 01:56:10,960
Speaker 9: you know, something is going to have to try to

1896
01:56:11,000 --> 01:56:13,080
Speaker 9: pick up the slack or a bunch of people aren't

1897
01:56:13,080 --> 01:56:16,920
Speaker 9: going to eat, right, and that's probably going to have

1898
01:56:16,960 --> 01:56:18,720
Speaker 9: to be us, because it's first fuck not going to

1899
01:56:18,720 --> 01:56:19,320
Speaker 9: be the government.

1900
01:56:19,640 --> 01:56:20,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1901
01:56:20,040 --> 01:56:22,200
Speaker 2: Well, and yeah, it's just the people's need to eat

1902
01:56:22,320 --> 01:56:23,200
Speaker 2: is inelastic.

1903
01:56:24,440 --> 01:56:27,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, Just to put some numbers on it,

1904
01:56:27,080 --> 01:56:30,320
Speaker 4: like SNAP in twenty four was forty one point seven

1905
01:56:30,360 --> 01:56:33,880
Speaker 4: million people, which is about twelve percent of the US population. Yeah,

1906
01:56:33,920 --> 01:56:35,920
Speaker 4: this is a massive cliff.

1907
01:56:36,400 --> 01:56:40,760
Speaker 2: I mean, it's particularly bad in certain states. For example, Oregon,

1908
01:56:40,920 --> 01:56:43,160
Speaker 2: you know where I live, is set to lose about

1909
01:56:43,200 --> 01:56:46,800
Speaker 2: three quarters of a million people's SNAP benefits. There are

1910
01:56:46,920 --> 01:56:49,000
Speaker 2: like four million people in the state.

1911
01:56:50,040 --> 01:56:51,960
Speaker 1: Yep, yep.

1912
01:56:52,600 --> 01:56:55,480
Speaker 9: And it's also like those people are also disproportionately non

1913
01:56:55,520 --> 01:57:00,640
Speaker 9: white and disapportionate, weir and very disapportion of the trans Yeah. Yeah,

1914
01:57:00,680 --> 01:57:04,680
Speaker 9: and this is something that if straight up the shutdown

1915
01:57:04,720 --> 01:57:08,080
Speaker 9: continues and we don't see s nota benefit's payout, this

1916
01:57:08,120 --> 01:57:11,640
Speaker 9: could also be a major source of instability because you know,

1917
01:57:12,240 --> 01:57:16,640
Speaker 9: the thing that happens very quickly when suddenly forty million

1918
01:57:16,680 --> 01:57:20,160
Speaker 9: people don't have food is bread riots. What is going

1919
01:57:20,160 --> 01:57:23,000
Speaker 9: to happen with that is deeply unclear, but yeah, we're

1920
01:57:23,000 --> 01:57:24,720
Speaker 9: heading into an extremely bleak time.

1921
01:57:25,200 --> 01:57:28,960
Speaker 2: If you're looking at predictors of violent instability in countries, yeah,

1922
01:57:29,280 --> 01:57:32,480
Speaker 2: mass starvation is about top of the list.

1923
01:57:32,560 --> 01:57:32,760
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1924
01:57:32,840 --> 01:57:33,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, yep.

1925
01:57:33,960 --> 01:57:38,640
Speaker 9: Particularly bread riots usually are in sort of the modern era,

1926
01:57:38,720 --> 01:57:41,440
Speaker 9: happens with two or three hundred percent increases in food prices,

1927
01:57:42,320 --> 01:57:44,720
Speaker 9: usually as a result of sort of imass structural adjustments.

1928
01:57:44,760 --> 01:57:46,680
Speaker 9: But if there was going to be another one, this

1929
01:57:46,720 --> 01:57:47,200
Speaker 9: would be it.

1930
01:57:47,880 --> 01:57:48,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1931
01:57:48,760 --> 01:57:53,160
Speaker 9: Yeah, So it's worth sort of being prepared on both

1932
01:57:53,280 --> 01:57:56,000
Speaker 9: ends in terms of feeding people and also yeah, with

1933
01:57:56,320 --> 01:57:58,400
Speaker 9: whatever was going to happen with this cuts out.

1934
01:57:59,120 --> 01:58:00,800
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1935
01:58:00,840 --> 01:58:04,400
Speaker 12: Meanwhile, during during all of this, during the shutdown and

1936
01:58:04,480 --> 01:58:09,760
Speaker 12: during snaps taking clock, Trump wants his Justice Department to

1937
01:58:09,880 --> 01:58:13,720
Speaker 12: pay himself two hundred and thirty million dollars in compensation

1938
01:58:14,360 --> 01:58:17,880
Speaker 12: for damages coming from past investigations into him.

1939
01:58:18,080 --> 01:58:18,720
Speaker 2: Seems fair.

1940
01:58:19,560 --> 01:58:21,600
Speaker 12: Trump claims that he will give this money to quote

1941
01:58:21,680 --> 01:58:26,280
Speaker 12: unquote charity. Seems real clear what that means, what charity

1942
01:58:26,360 --> 01:58:30,160
Speaker 12: that will be, how that will really qualify as a

1943
01:58:30,240 --> 01:58:33,280
Speaker 12: charitable donation. But he is currently seeking two hundred and

1944
01:58:33,360 --> 01:58:36,320
Speaker 12: thirty million dollars of government money to be paid back

1945
01:58:36,360 --> 01:58:38,720
Speaker 12: to himself. In the end, it will be him making

1946
01:58:38,760 --> 01:58:41,000
Speaker 12: the final call on this, which he says he feels

1947
01:58:41,040 --> 01:58:41,680
Speaker 12: strange about.

1948
01:58:42,360 --> 01:58:43,120
Speaker 2: Okay, well, it's good.

1949
01:58:43,280 --> 01:58:46,200
Speaker 4: You know, he's an honest man, you know, it's great.

1950
01:58:46,280 --> 01:58:49,360
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, we we've just fully entered the looting the

1951
01:58:49,400 --> 01:58:51,320
Speaker 9: storehouse is part of the regime.

1952
01:58:52,160 --> 01:58:55,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, they taking a very British approach.

1953
01:58:55,360 --> 01:58:58,280
Speaker 2: Looting is putting this too mildly.

1954
01:58:59,000 --> 01:59:01,520
Speaker 9: Yeah, if you see the article about the plans to

1955
01:59:01,880 --> 01:59:05,400
Speaker 9: let AI companies apply to get old weapons grade plutonium

1956
01:59:05,800 --> 01:59:07,040
Speaker 9: to fuel the nuclear.

1957
01:59:06,800 --> 01:59:09,960
Speaker 2: Reactors, seems fine. And that's what I trust Sam Altman

1958
01:59:10,400 --> 01:59:13,600
Speaker 2: weapons grade plutonium. He's gonna use that safely.

1959
01:59:13,760 --> 01:59:21,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, hopefully the air bubble collapses before they get.

1960
01:59:20,160 --> 01:59:23,320
Speaker 2: You know what a great attitude to approach having weapons

1961
01:59:23,320 --> 01:59:26,920
Speaker 2: grade plutonium is move fast and break grace.

1962
01:59:27,960 --> 01:59:31,080
Speaker 4: Oh god, this is great. It's this week we're announcing

1963
01:59:31,120 --> 01:59:32,200
Speaker 4: the start of KOD's force.

1964
01:59:32,320 --> 01:59:32,600
Speaker 1: AI.

1965
01:59:32,880 --> 01:59:33,880
Speaker 2: There we go, bring it on.

1966
01:59:37,320 --> 01:59:41,080
Speaker 12: God breaking breaking news, US sanction has been placed against

1967
01:59:41,120 --> 01:59:45,800
Speaker 12: two of Russia's largest oil companies in an effort to

1968
01:59:45,840 --> 01:59:50,360
Speaker 12: pressure the Ukraine Russia piece deal, which Putin just backed

1969
01:59:50,360 --> 01:59:53,560
Speaker 12: out of negotiations from as there was plans for him

1970
01:59:53,640 --> 01:59:57,040
Speaker 12: and Trump to meet, So that just happened.

1971
01:59:57,320 --> 02:00:01,600
Speaker 2: Sexy not sexy. So I think one of the first

1972
02:00:01,640 --> 02:00:03,360
Speaker 2: things we want to cover right now, just because this

1973
02:00:03,400 --> 02:00:06,040
Speaker 2: is maybe the number one thing I'm seeing people talk

1974
02:00:06,080 --> 02:00:09,120
Speaker 2: about on social media right now is there have been

1975
02:00:09,480 --> 02:00:13,960
Speaker 2: articles written about ICE's new weapons budget. Famously, their budget

1976
02:00:14,000 --> 02:00:16,480
Speaker 2: is increased, missing like seven hundred percent. A huge amount

1977
02:00:16,480 --> 02:00:20,080
Speaker 2: of that's being spent on, you know, bonuses in order

1978
02:00:20,160 --> 02:00:23,120
Speaker 2: to get people to join, cash payments and whatnot, as

1979
02:00:23,120 --> 02:00:25,680
Speaker 2: well as pretension bonuses, but a lot more of it's

1980
02:00:25,680 --> 02:00:29,120
Speaker 2: being spent on weapons. And right now the number one

1981
02:00:29,160 --> 02:00:32,120
Speaker 2: thing I'm seeing people freak out about is the supposed

1982
02:00:32,160 --> 02:00:35,640
Speaker 2: idea from these documents that ICE is purchasing guided missiles

1983
02:00:35,640 --> 02:00:39,880
Speaker 2: and chemical weapons. I have heard people say this is Ice,

1984
02:00:40,200 --> 02:00:43,600
Speaker 2: which is obviously Trump's SS, you know, making their own

1985
02:00:43,720 --> 02:00:46,240
Speaker 2: vaffen ss, which were the armed units of the SS.

1986
02:00:46,240 --> 02:00:48,000
Speaker 2: I'm seeing a lot of shit like this spread, and

1987
02:00:48,080 --> 02:00:50,600
Speaker 2: as Jamee is going to tell you, none of that's true.

1988
02:00:50,720 --> 02:00:50,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1989
02:00:51,080 --> 02:00:53,120
Speaker 2: I mean, the fact that ICE has a massive increase

1990
02:00:53,120 --> 02:00:55,200
Speaker 2: in budget and is buying a shit little weapons is true.

1991
02:00:55,360 --> 02:00:57,160
Speaker 2: But they're not guided missiles.

1992
02:00:57,400 --> 02:00:59,560
Speaker 12: ICE doesn't heat guided missiles.

1993
02:01:00,120 --> 02:01:02,520
Speaker 4: We're not getting a death heead ICE unit.

1994
02:01:02,840 --> 02:01:05,640
Speaker 12: Come on at the next Canal Street ICE raid, they're

1995
02:01:05,680 --> 02:01:08,080
Speaker 12: going to be launching heat seeking missiles into Chinatown.

1996
02:01:09,120 --> 02:01:11,200
Speaker 2: I'm not saying this isn't a problem, but it's not

1997
02:01:11,240 --> 02:01:14,600
Speaker 2: what people are saying it is. Yeah, sorry, James, all right.

1998
02:01:14,920 --> 02:01:17,440
Speaker 4: The source of its claim is a substack page called

1999
02:01:17,480 --> 02:01:22,200
Speaker 4: Popular Information run by a guy called Juddlygum, and he

2000
02:01:22,680 --> 02:01:24,440
Speaker 4: has claimed in this piece, I'm just going to quote

2001
02:01:24,440 --> 02:01:28,120
Speaker 4: the ICE post purchase, quote chemical weapons, and quote guided

2002
02:01:28,160 --> 02:01:32,720
Speaker 4: missile warheads and explosive components. I guess the main thrust

2003
02:01:32,720 --> 02:01:34,320
Speaker 4: of the piece was looking at the fact that ICE

2004
02:01:34,360 --> 02:01:38,040
Speaker 4: spent nine million dollars on geistly ar pattern rifles. Border

2005
02:01:38,080 --> 02:01:40,240
Speaker 4: Patrol spent more than twice that he appears to have

2006
02:01:40,240 --> 02:01:44,560
Speaker 4: missed that in his reporting. This reporting is extremely dishonest,

2007
02:01:44,760 --> 02:01:49,200
Speaker 4: To put it mildly, it's either deliberately misleading or massively incompetent.

2008
02:01:50,040 --> 02:01:54,600
Speaker 4: The piece in question doesn't link to the individual contracts, which,

2009
02:01:54,920 --> 02:01:56,400
Speaker 4: like on the face of its bad form, right, if

2010
02:01:56,440 --> 02:01:58,200
Speaker 4: you're going to be talking about contracts, your contracts are

2011
02:01:58,240 --> 02:02:00,840
Speaker 4: in the public domain. Just linked to them. The piece

2012
02:02:00,880 --> 02:02:04,560
Speaker 4: doesn't do that. I went on USA spending dot gov

2013
02:02:05,080 --> 02:02:09,240
Speaker 4: and I filtered by contracts that have been awarded by ICE.

2014
02:02:10,000 --> 02:02:12,560
Speaker 4: I gave a date range. The date range are pertained

2015
02:02:12,600 --> 02:02:15,000
Speaker 4: to the things being discussed in the article. And then

2016
02:02:15,040 --> 02:02:17,280
Speaker 4: I filtered by the product or service code for chemical

2017
02:02:17,320 --> 02:02:20,320
Speaker 4: weapons and guided missile warheads. Right, two different products or

2018
02:02:20,360 --> 02:02:23,160
Speaker 4: service codes. Product or service codes are like these, these

2019
02:02:23,240 --> 02:02:26,200
Speaker 4: four digit codes that exist in federal procurement right to

2020
02:02:26,440 --> 02:02:29,880
Speaker 4: put things into buckets basically, and I found the contracts.

2021
02:02:30,120 --> 02:02:36,600
Speaker 4: The contract very clearly states the guided missile quote unquote contract.

2022
02:02:36,640 --> 02:02:39,720
Speaker 4: The contract with the guided missile product or service code

2023
02:02:39,920 --> 02:02:43,720
Speaker 4: very clearly states it is for multiple distraction devices. Yeah,

2024
02:02:43,800 --> 02:02:46,640
Speaker 4: it's a contract with a company called Quantico Tactical. I

2025
02:02:46,680 --> 02:02:50,760
Speaker 4: did call them yesterday, something that again any competent reporter

2026
02:02:50,840 --> 02:02:54,200
Speaker 4: should do before publishing a piece that does not appear

2027
02:02:54,240 --> 02:02:56,720
Speaker 4: to have been done by the substat guy. They gave

2028
02:02:56,760 --> 02:02:59,800
Speaker 4: me an email. I sent it email more than twenty

2029
02:02:59,840 --> 02:03:03,160
Speaker 4: four where hours ago, requesting commental clarification, didn't receive a

2030
02:03:03,200 --> 02:03:06,320
Speaker 4: response at the time of us going to press. If

2031
02:03:06,360 --> 02:03:09,000
Speaker 4: I hit back from them before we release this, I

2032
02:03:09,040 --> 02:03:12,840
Speaker 4: will let you all know the chemical weapons. It was

2033
02:03:12,840 --> 02:03:15,160
Speaker 4: as spray. It was fab spray, right.

2034
02:03:15,040 --> 02:03:17,280
Speaker 2: And a distraction device by the way, folks, this is

2035
02:03:17,320 --> 02:03:21,360
Speaker 2: something like like a sonic grenade, which sounds crazy, but

2036
02:03:21,360 --> 02:03:23,760
Speaker 2: it's a grenade that makes a loud noise to distract

2037
02:03:23,840 --> 02:03:26,400
Speaker 2: people to bang. The flash bang is also a distraction

2038
02:03:26,520 --> 02:03:28,800
Speaker 2: device when you used the way that they use in riots.

2039
02:03:28,880 --> 02:03:30,520
Speaker 2: You know, it's a little bit of a different thing

2040
02:03:30,560 --> 02:03:32,760
Speaker 2: when you're using one to like breach bang and clear

2041
02:03:32,800 --> 02:03:35,240
Speaker 2: a door or something. But like when you're throwing a

2042
02:03:35,240 --> 02:03:37,920
Speaker 2: flash bang at a riot, it's a distraction device because

2043
02:03:37,920 --> 02:03:40,280
Speaker 2: the goal is you've got a bunch of people moving

2044
02:03:40,320 --> 02:03:43,000
Speaker 2: towards an area you want to stop them from You

2045
02:03:43,040 --> 02:03:45,240
Speaker 2: distract them by an explosion, you know.

2046
02:03:45,520 --> 02:03:46,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's distracting.

2047
02:03:46,720 --> 02:03:48,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's also and this is you know, one of

2048
02:03:48,840 --> 02:03:50,760
Speaker 9: the one of the frustrating elements about this is that

2049
02:03:51,160 --> 02:03:53,120
Speaker 9: Ice has been using a whole bunch of these to

2050
02:03:53,120 --> 02:03:55,240
Speaker 9: blow down people's doors. It's really horrible.

2051
02:03:55,400 --> 02:03:57,840
Speaker 2: There are problems. It's problems that they're buying all this.

2052
02:03:58,040 --> 02:04:00,440
Speaker 9: And no one is talking about it because everyone's focused

2053
02:04:00,440 --> 02:04:00,680
Speaker 9: on this.

2054
02:04:01,200 --> 02:04:04,480
Speaker 2: When James put up their initial research just on a

2055
02:04:04,520 --> 02:04:07,680
Speaker 2: Blue Sky and Twitter, I shared it and people were like,

2056
02:04:08,280 --> 02:04:10,480
Speaker 2: it's still a problem they've got that they're getting all

2057
02:04:10,520 --> 02:04:12,400
Speaker 2: buying all these new weapons. Do you not care about?

2058
02:04:12,480 --> 02:04:12,640
Speaker 1: Yes?

2059
02:04:12,680 --> 02:04:15,680
Speaker 2: I care about that. You're not talking about that. Yeah,

2060
02:04:15,760 --> 02:04:20,200
Speaker 2: we care about the talking about a fantasy.

2061
02:04:18,920 --> 02:04:21,960
Speaker 4: And like it is bad that Ice has flash bangs

2062
02:04:22,040 --> 02:04:25,840
Speaker 4: and pepper spray, right, I have personally broadcasts how they exists.

2063
02:04:25,880 --> 02:04:28,000
Speaker 4: Like you can go back only a few months and

2064
02:04:28,080 --> 02:04:31,960
Speaker 4: here Ice flash bangs on this podcast, like recorded by

2065
02:04:32,000 --> 02:04:34,560
Speaker 4: me in person. We know they fucking have them because

2066
02:04:34,560 --> 02:04:35,600
Speaker 4: they were throwing them at me.

2067
02:04:35,880 --> 02:04:36,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2068
02:04:36,240 --> 02:04:39,160
Speaker 2: I've lost count of how many have hit me directly.

2069
02:04:39,240 --> 02:04:39,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2070
02:04:39,760 --> 02:04:43,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, we've got at least seventy five percent fucking federal

2071
02:04:43,400 --> 02:04:47,680
Speaker 4: government flash bang impact. You know. Like, I want to

2072
02:04:47,720 --> 02:04:49,760
Speaker 4: take a second guess to talk about incentives here, because

2073
02:04:49,760 --> 02:04:52,520
Speaker 4: this really pisses me off. And I think that the

2074
02:04:52,520 --> 02:04:54,920
Speaker 4: way we build trust in the media is through openness,

2075
02:04:55,280 --> 02:04:57,640
Speaker 4: and I think that we do that better than most

2076
02:04:57,640 --> 02:04:59,440
Speaker 4: and I'm going to try and do that here just

2077
02:04:59,480 --> 02:05:01,880
Speaker 4: so you know, none of us make any extra money

2078
02:05:02,280 --> 02:05:05,000
Speaker 4: if more people download this podcast, at least not directly. Right,

2079
02:05:05,040 --> 02:05:08,560
Speaker 4: we do not have a direct incentive to make fantastical

2080
02:05:08,640 --> 02:05:12,400
Speaker 4: claims that will lead to people downloading our podcast and

2081
02:05:12,440 --> 02:05:16,200
Speaker 4: being afraid that is not true for people who have

2082
02:05:16,280 --> 02:05:20,480
Speaker 4: these substick outlets, right, Like, I mean, I'll let me clarify.

2083
02:05:20,760 --> 02:05:24,280
Speaker 4: We do have a direct financial interest in there being traffic,

2084
02:05:24,600 --> 02:05:27,280
Speaker 4: right because that is that's how we make our money,

2085
02:05:27,360 --> 02:05:30,040
Speaker 4: right like, and that's how we justify getting raises and stuff. So,

2086
02:05:30,240 --> 02:05:34,400
Speaker 4: like everyone in media, if more people listen to our stuff, like,

2087
02:05:34,520 --> 02:05:37,240
Speaker 4: we do have a financial interest in that, But you're

2088
02:05:37,320 --> 02:05:41,120
Speaker 4: not checking week to week to see if we're getting

2089
02:05:41,280 --> 02:05:44,040
Speaker 4: if what we're doing is bringing us in more direct money,

2090
02:05:44,160 --> 02:05:47,400
Speaker 4: right Like, That's just not the way our thing works. Yeah,

2091
02:05:47,480 --> 02:05:49,800
Speaker 4: And when people are on their own they're doing these

2092
02:05:49,800 --> 02:05:52,640
Speaker 4: subsc out there is a very real incentive to do that, right.

2093
02:05:52,640 --> 02:05:55,920
Speaker 4: We also have a team here. We fact check each other.

2094
02:05:56,160 --> 02:05:58,840
Speaker 12: We do our best. We fuck up sometimes, yeah, yeah,

2095
02:05:58,880 --> 02:06:00,880
Speaker 12: we fuck up. Sometimes we're honest about it. When we

2096
02:06:00,960 --> 02:06:04,320
Speaker 12: do right, we acknowledge it. Yeah, we acknowledge when James

2097
02:06:04,320 --> 02:06:05,040
Speaker 12: makes mistakes.

2098
02:06:05,800 --> 02:06:09,040
Speaker 2: Thank you, guys, you're the least You're the least mistake

2099
02:06:09,160 --> 02:06:09,680
Speaker 2: person here.

2100
02:06:11,200 --> 02:06:14,800
Speaker 4: I'm extremely careful about that ship. Well, I've stood on

2101
02:06:14,800 --> 02:06:18,000
Speaker 4: my fucking pedestal enough about this. But yeah, it's bad

2102
02:06:18,080 --> 02:06:20,320
Speaker 4: right that things that I saw buying that ICE is

2103
02:06:20,400 --> 02:06:24,760
Speaker 4: really buying. Yeah, are samu automatic ars, more clocks, a

2104
02:06:24,840 --> 02:06:28,360
Speaker 4: lot of soft body armor, red dot sites quote unquote

2105
02:06:28,400 --> 02:06:31,600
Speaker 4: crowd control munitions. Right, sort of spending you see from

2106
02:06:31,600 --> 02:06:35,160
Speaker 4: a special forces unit that are very not special like

2107
02:06:35,520 --> 02:06:38,320
Speaker 4: police agency, right, Like that's just spending, like they have

2108
02:06:38,360 --> 02:06:39,520
Speaker 4: an open check book.

2109
02:06:39,920 --> 02:06:43,880
Speaker 2: Like ICE is continuing to buy the same weapons with

2110
02:06:43,920 --> 02:06:48,080
Speaker 2: which they have been hurting people the entirety almost of

2111
02:06:48,120 --> 02:06:51,680
Speaker 2: the twenty first century, and they're hurting more people now

2112
02:06:51,760 --> 02:06:54,160
Speaker 2: and will be hurting even more people in the future

2113
02:06:54,240 --> 02:06:56,520
Speaker 2: because they will have even more money. And that's bad.

2114
02:06:56,680 --> 02:06:59,560
Speaker 2: And you don't like, what would they even do with

2115
02:06:59,600 --> 02:07:00,360
Speaker 2: a guide missing?

2116
02:07:01,440 --> 02:07:04,800
Speaker 4: It doesn't make sense. On the Facebook, it's sixty one grand. Yeah,

2117
02:07:04,920 --> 02:07:06,880
Speaker 4: the fuck do you think you're getting for sixty one

2118
02:07:06,920 --> 02:07:08,400
Speaker 4: grand from a company in quantic?

2119
02:07:08,480 --> 02:07:11,240
Speaker 2: Have you tried buying guided missiles in this economy?

2120
02:07:11,240 --> 02:07:11,560
Speaker 1: People?

2121
02:07:12,720 --> 02:07:15,440
Speaker 4: It's just ludicrous, man, What the fuck. They think they're

2122
02:07:15,480 --> 02:07:20,440
Speaker 4: going like like Tomahawk, I know, like a strawberry picking facility.

2123
02:07:20,520 --> 02:07:24,839
Speaker 4: Like it's ludicrous, it's fucking ridiculous, a chemical weapon.

2124
02:07:25,320 --> 02:07:27,520
Speaker 2: I mean, you can talk about substack and they're being

2125
02:07:27,520 --> 02:07:30,400
Speaker 2: fucked up things about the company. But like, I honestly

2126
02:07:30,560 --> 02:07:33,080
Speaker 2: I think that I don't think it's overstated, but I

2127
02:07:33,080 --> 02:07:35,200
Speaker 2: think people focus on that extind of like, well, yeah,

2128
02:07:35,240 --> 02:07:38,480
Speaker 2: which which of them aren't? What where is the non

2129
02:07:38,600 --> 02:07:41,320
Speaker 2: nazi social media company that has any kind of reach?

2130
02:07:41,520 --> 02:07:41,760
Speaker 1: You know?

2131
02:07:42,400 --> 02:07:45,720
Speaker 2: But that's really not even the point I care to make.

2132
02:07:45,840 --> 02:07:49,080
Speaker 2: What I will say, the problem here is not even

2133
02:07:49,240 --> 02:07:52,600
Speaker 2: just that like when people are working for an audience

2134
02:07:52,640 --> 02:07:55,440
Speaker 2: like that, we're week to week, however many people are

2135
02:07:55,480 --> 02:07:59,000
Speaker 2: donating and whatnot kind of can incentivize you to follow

2136
02:07:59,080 --> 02:08:02,560
Speaker 2: certain rabbit holes and push certain things. I think one

2137
02:08:02,600 --> 02:08:06,040
Speaker 2: of the bigger problems is that what you have is

2138
02:08:06,080 --> 02:08:09,840
Speaker 2: a generation a very of the most talented and successful

2139
02:08:10,040 --> 02:08:12,720
Speaker 2: journalists in terms of their skill of like writing and

2140
02:08:12,760 --> 02:08:16,000
Speaker 2: their ability to build an audience that follows them. Those

2141
02:08:16,120 --> 02:08:19,560
Speaker 2: people have all moved to a platform where they by

2142
02:08:19,680 --> 02:08:24,200
Speaker 2: default don't have an editor yea, and like every journalist

2143
02:08:24,400 --> 02:08:27,200
Speaker 2: worth they're sold I've had my fights and frustrations with

2144
02:08:27,360 --> 02:08:31,200
Speaker 2: editors at a variety of publications, and sometimes they're knowing,

2145
02:08:31,480 --> 02:08:36,080
Speaker 2: and sometimes editors suck, and sometimes publications a big part

2146
02:08:36,120 --> 02:08:37,640
Speaker 2: of what they're doing is just trying to water down

2147
02:08:37,640 --> 02:08:40,160
Speaker 2: your shit. But that's not the only thing editors do.

2148
02:08:40,280 --> 02:08:43,680
Speaker 2: A major thing editors do is point out, Hey, I

2149
02:08:43,720 --> 02:08:45,560
Speaker 2: get that you're really into this, and I get that

2150
02:08:45,600 --> 02:08:49,400
Speaker 2: you find this compelling, but as an objective observer, I'm

2151
02:08:49,440 --> 02:08:51,840
Speaker 2: seeing this hole in this hole in this hole, and

2152
02:08:52,320 --> 02:08:56,120
Speaker 2: you need to, for example, hall these people and make

2153
02:08:56,200 --> 02:08:58,880
Speaker 2: sure that this because it doesn't look like this is

2154
02:08:58,920 --> 02:09:02,200
Speaker 2: actually a guided It looks like somebody just fucked up

2155
02:09:02,200 --> 02:09:05,040
Speaker 2: putting in a code. We need to check on this

2156
02:09:05,160 --> 02:09:07,120
Speaker 2: so we can state it to a point of certainty.

2157
02:09:07,200 --> 02:09:10,760
Speaker 2: That's what an editor should be doing, right.

2158
02:09:11,080 --> 02:09:13,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, even if they're responsible journalist, like I wouldn't have

2159
02:09:14,000 --> 02:09:17,320
Speaker 4: submitted that piece to an editor without having checked that first.

2160
02:09:17,400 --> 02:09:19,360
Speaker 4: Like sure, it took me five minutes to call them.

2161
02:09:19,360 --> 02:09:22,280
Speaker 4: I should add that the PSC's in question for grenades

2162
02:09:22,320 --> 02:09:25,720
Speaker 4: and war heads are one digit different, right again.

2163
02:09:25,520 --> 02:09:27,200
Speaker 2: Right, which is which is what happened here?

2164
02:09:27,280 --> 02:09:28,440
Speaker 4: It certainly looks that way.

2165
02:09:28,720 --> 02:09:34,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and again this is why. Part of how

2166
02:09:34,400 --> 02:09:37,440
Speaker 2: responsible journalism is supposed to work is that you never

2167
02:09:37,520 --> 02:09:42,040
Speaker 2: have just one eye on a story, because every journalist

2168
02:09:42,320 --> 02:09:46,160
Speaker 2: will inevitably miss things if you're doing that right, that's

2169
02:09:46,280 --> 02:09:48,960
Speaker 2: why you are supposed to The idea is to have

2170
02:09:49,120 --> 02:09:51,680
Speaker 2: multiple eyes on a thing so that oh, hey it

2171
02:09:51,680 --> 02:09:53,720
Speaker 2: looks like you skipped over this, or hey it just

2172
02:09:53,760 --> 02:09:56,000
Speaker 2: occurred to me. I have this question that is not

2173
02:09:56,080 --> 02:09:58,880
Speaker 2: being answered, and you make a couple of phone calls,

2174
02:09:59,000 --> 02:10:01,720
Speaker 2: throw in another sentence, and then that's that's a thing

2175
02:10:01,760 --> 02:10:04,080
Speaker 2: that we're answering, a thing we're accounting for. And if

2176
02:10:04,120 --> 02:10:06,400
Speaker 2: you don't have that, the work isn't as good.

2177
02:10:07,000 --> 02:10:09,680
Speaker 4: Yeah. No, look, I'm not saying there were not things

2178
02:10:09,680 --> 02:10:09,960
Speaker 4: to be.

2179
02:10:09,920 --> 02:10:12,880
Speaker 2: Afraid of that are No one's saying yeah, But I.

2180
02:10:12,880 --> 02:10:15,000
Speaker 4: Want people to be afraid of the right thing, so

2181
02:10:15,080 --> 02:10:17,520
Speaker 4: like they're not gonna lob you people.

2182
02:10:17,880 --> 02:10:19,880
Speaker 12: I don't think we're really going to be safe until

2183
02:10:19,880 --> 02:10:23,879
Speaker 12: there's an iron dome over every Home Depot Gartson.

2184
02:10:23,960 --> 02:10:26,240
Speaker 2: I've been saying that for years. But that's also because

2185
02:10:26,280 --> 02:10:30,240
Speaker 2: I would like to start a limited missile war against

2186
02:10:30,280 --> 02:10:33,640
Speaker 2: the Home Depot Corporation. But I've been get taking lows

2187
02:10:33,680 --> 02:10:35,320
Speaker 2: money for years yeah, on.

2188
02:10:35,240 --> 02:10:38,480
Speaker 4: Behalf of flows. Yeah, I'm on teammates hardware. So I'll

2189
02:10:38,480 --> 02:10:39,760
Speaker 4: see you on the battlefield, Robert.

2190
02:10:39,840 --> 02:10:41,720
Speaker 2: At least we don't have any Harbor Freight people.

2191
02:10:42,640 --> 02:10:46,360
Speaker 4: Actually actually a massive Harbor Freight guy. He just says

2192
02:10:46,360 --> 02:10:49,560
Speaker 4: that Harbor fray like literally literally behind me.

2193
02:10:49,680 --> 02:10:51,880
Speaker 2: I mean, then I think about Harbor Freight is buying

2194
02:10:51,920 --> 02:10:55,080
Speaker 2: one thing and then returning it exactly eleven months after

2195
02:10:55,160 --> 02:10:56,640
Speaker 2: buying it once you've broken it, and.

2196
02:10:56,720 --> 02:10:58,640
Speaker 4: Just having a perpetual whatever.

2197
02:10:59,400 --> 02:10:59,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2198
02:10:59,680 --> 02:11:02,560
Speaker 12: Yeah, everything that I bought from Harbor Freid has started smoking.

2199
02:11:03,200 --> 02:11:05,480
Speaker 2: Everything breaks that you buy from Harbor Freight, but the

2200
02:11:05,560 --> 02:11:06,879
Speaker 2: return policy is amazing.

2201
02:11:07,360 --> 02:11:07,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2202
02:11:07,600 --> 02:11:09,800
Speaker 4: The question is will it break before or after you've

2203
02:11:09,880 --> 02:11:12,040
Speaker 4: used it enough to justify buying something more expensive, And.

2204
02:11:12,000 --> 02:11:15,640
Speaker 12: The answer is yes, James, can you do a product

2205
02:11:15,680 --> 02:11:18,840
Speaker 12: and service code ad break kids?

2206
02:11:18,880 --> 02:11:19,080
Speaker 1: Sure?

2207
02:11:19,840 --> 02:11:22,400
Speaker 12: Based on your investigation here and Adam, you can keep

2208
02:11:22,440 --> 02:11:24,040
Speaker 12: this in you can you can show them how the

2209
02:11:24,040 --> 02:11:26,160
Speaker 12: sauce is made here. Yeah, it's just in terms of

2210
02:11:26,160 --> 02:11:28,600
Speaker 12: honesty here we go. Okay, right, give me give me

2211
02:11:28,600 --> 02:11:30,080
Speaker 12: a second here. I got to think of something good.

2212
02:11:31,520 --> 02:11:33,400
Speaker 4: You fucked it. I was just gonna do talking products

2213
02:11:33,440 --> 02:11:38,520
Speaker 4: and services and you ruined it. Garrison. If you are

2214
02:11:38,680 --> 02:11:41,520
Speaker 4: in the market for a distraction advice, guided warhead or

2215
02:11:41,600 --> 02:11:45,480
Speaker 4: chemical weapon, let's hope that you get an advert for

2216
02:11:45,560 --> 02:11:48,800
Speaker 4: one of those in this commercial break. That's right, people,

2217
02:12:01,720 --> 02:12:04,520
Speaker 4: welcome back to the Iranian regime. I hope you got

2218
02:12:04,560 --> 02:12:05,360
Speaker 4: what you wanted.

2219
02:12:06,680 --> 02:12:11,440
Speaker 2: Yes, this podcast is the only podcast entirely supported by

2220
02:12:11,440 --> 02:12:16,040
Speaker 2: the Ayatola. And yeah, uh praise him.

2221
02:12:16,360 --> 02:12:19,360
Speaker 12: The CIA and the IOTOLA have finally unique had.

2222
02:12:19,240 --> 02:12:25,240
Speaker 4: The clasp hands me both from Robert Evans. Legally speaking,

2223
02:12:25,440 --> 02:12:27,520
Speaker 4: that is a joke. We are not funded by the

2224
02:12:27,560 --> 02:12:29,240
Speaker 4: Iranian regime. We're all monarching.

2225
02:12:29,320 --> 02:12:30,120
Speaker 2: Speak for yourself there.

2226
02:12:30,120 --> 02:12:30,800
Speaker 3: Do you talk about the.

2227
02:12:32,520 --> 02:12:34,360
Speaker 12: Let's talk about the national card.

2228
02:12:34,520 --> 02:12:34,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2229
02:12:34,800 --> 02:12:35,080
Speaker 2: Sure.

2230
02:12:35,840 --> 02:12:38,840
Speaker 12: On Monday, his past Monday, the Ninth Circred Qard of

2231
02:12:38,840 --> 02:12:42,360
Speaker 12: Appeals have ruled in favor of the Trump administration, halting

2232
02:12:42,520 --> 02:12:45,720
Speaker 12: a court order denying the federalization and deployment of the

2233
02:12:45,760 --> 02:12:49,800
Speaker 12: Oregon National Guard. They had two to one ruling on

2234
02:12:49,880 --> 02:12:54,080
Speaker 12: a three panel hearing with two trumpet pointed judges. They

2235
02:12:54,120 --> 02:12:57,680
Speaker 12: called Trump's plan to deploy troops to the Ice Building

2236
02:12:57,720 --> 02:13:02,040
Speaker 12: in Portland a quote unquote measured sponse. Now there is

2237
02:13:02,200 --> 02:13:05,280
Speaker 12: a second tro preventing out of state National Guard from

2238
02:13:05,280 --> 02:13:08,240
Speaker 12: deploying to Portland, and this appears to still be in effect,

2239
02:13:08,320 --> 02:13:11,120
Speaker 12: but its fate is unknown. The Justice Department has requested

2240
02:13:11,160 --> 02:13:14,560
Speaker 12: the original judge to spend the order, though the Ninth

2241
02:13:14,640 --> 02:13:18,879
Speaker 12: Circuit itself is considering whether a larger panel should rehear

2242
02:13:19,040 --> 02:13:24,200
Speaker 12: this entire case. Currently, there is no immediate plans for

2243
02:13:24,360 --> 02:13:27,680
Speaker 12: Oregon National Guard to be deployed, but they do now

2244
02:13:28,160 --> 02:13:31,400
Speaker 12: have the go ahead, but this is still a developing situation.

2245
02:13:31,600 --> 02:13:34,560
Speaker 12: But that's an important update there. Let's talk about that

2246
02:13:34,600 --> 02:13:38,800
Speaker 12: two fifty celebration sing happy birthday. No, happy birthday to

2247
02:13:38,880 --> 02:13:39,440
Speaker 12: the Marines.

2248
02:13:39,880 --> 02:13:43,320
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, oh god, yeah, Happy birth to the Marine Corps.

2249
02:13:43,360 --> 02:13:45,040
Speaker 2: I hope today you guys get to eat a lot

2250
02:13:45,080 --> 02:13:45,920
Speaker 2: of crayons.

2251
02:13:46,360 --> 02:13:48,720
Speaker 4: They'll have a cake which is shaped like a giant crown.

2252
02:13:48,760 --> 02:13:50,760
Speaker 9: No, it just is made out of giant crown.

2253
02:13:50,920 --> 02:13:54,360
Speaker 12: And we all remove our tote CoV tattoos. That's going

2254
02:13:54,400 --> 02:13:56,080
Speaker 12: to be the Marine party.

2255
02:13:56,360 --> 02:14:01,400
Speaker 2: Get get rid of those scout snipers. It's yet sawst.

2256
02:14:03,000 --> 02:14:03,200
Speaker 1: But no.

2257
02:14:03,360 --> 02:14:06,000
Speaker 12: There was the Marines two hundred and fifty a celebration

2258
02:14:06,280 --> 02:14:11,720
Speaker 12: with JD Vance last week where they did play hell

2259
02:14:11,840 --> 02:14:14,520
Speaker 12: Diver to music during the celebration.

2260
02:14:15,600 --> 02:14:19,320
Speaker 9: Was a happy birthday and Fidels.

2261
02:14:32,120 --> 02:14:34,200
Speaker 4: I'm still not clear what hell Diver is.

2262
02:14:34,480 --> 02:14:38,480
Speaker 12: Hell Divers is a satirical video game that satirizes a

2263
02:14:38,520 --> 02:14:43,200
Speaker 12: fascist military that fights for quote unquote democracy against others

2264
02:14:43,280 --> 02:14:44,600
Speaker 12: so called fascists.

2265
02:14:44,600 --> 02:14:48,760
Speaker 9: Sorry, managed democracy very important, It's.

2266
02:14:48,560 --> 02:14:50,600
Speaker 2: True, It's true, yes, managed.

2267
02:14:51,000 --> 02:14:53,920
Speaker 12: I have heard of it from the news headlines such

2268
02:14:53,960 --> 02:14:58,680
Speaker 12: as Charlie Kirk shot. But yeah, it's basically like playing

2269
02:14:58,720 --> 02:15:03,080
Speaker 12: Starship Troopers music over the Marine Corps celebration party. That's

2270
02:15:03,160 --> 02:15:05,800
Speaker 12: kind of the caliber we're operating in here. Yeah, thank

2271
02:15:05,840 --> 02:15:07,960
Speaker 12: you for bringing that to my generational understanding.

2272
02:15:08,080 --> 02:15:10,640
Speaker 4: There you go. Yeah, I appreciate it. Talking to the

2273
02:15:10,680 --> 02:15:14,640
Speaker 4: Marine Corps two hundred and fiftieth birthday on Saturday, a

2274
02:15:14,760 --> 02:15:17,520
Speaker 4: one fifty five shells one hundred and fifty five millimeter

2275
02:15:17,760 --> 02:15:25,880
Speaker 4: Howitzer shell prematurely detonated over the five Freeway outside of Pendleton, right,

2276
02:15:26,200 --> 02:15:30,560
Speaker 4: not stuff, crazy shit, damaging a cop car that was

2277
02:15:30,560 --> 02:15:33,160
Speaker 4: assigned to JD. Vancy's security detail.

2278
02:15:33,400 --> 02:15:35,720
Speaker 2: It was literally as soon as they started talking about

2279
02:15:35,760 --> 02:15:38,200
Speaker 2: how Trump wanted to shoot a missile into fucking Camp

2280
02:15:38,200 --> 02:15:41,760
Speaker 2: Pendleton and like immediately, yeah, they fuck up and blow

2281
02:15:41,840 --> 02:15:45,640
Speaker 2: up a car attached to fucking the Vice President's Security Detail.

2282
02:15:45,720 --> 02:15:46,640
Speaker 2: Amazing stuff.

2283
02:15:47,240 --> 02:15:50,040
Speaker 4: They did a dress rehearsal on Friday in which they

2284
02:15:50,040 --> 02:15:52,880
Speaker 4: managed not to detonate any shells over to five. Gavin

2285
02:15:52,920 --> 02:15:54,800
Speaker 4: Newsom decided to shut the frive on Saturday.

2286
02:15:54,880 --> 02:15:55,560
Speaker 2: Probably a good call.

2287
02:15:56,320 --> 02:16:00,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, probably complaining about things shaking I just did. If

2288
02:16:00,120 --> 02:16:02,800
Speaker 4: you're like, if you're not familiar with the layout there,

2289
02:16:03,320 --> 02:16:05,160
Speaker 4: I would say that in most places is you go.

2290
02:16:05,280 --> 02:16:07,800
Speaker 4: Camp Pendleton is a large area that is used by

2291
02:16:07,840 --> 02:16:11,040
Speaker 4: the Marine Corps for training. It has artillery ranges within it.

2292
02:16:11,280 --> 02:16:14,480
Speaker 2: The five is the big highway in California. It's the

2293
02:16:14,560 --> 02:16:16,760
Speaker 2: highway that goes the whole length of the state.

2294
02:16:17,360 --> 02:16:19,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, you would call it the I five if you

2295
02:16:19,000 --> 02:16:21,000
Speaker 4: weren't from here, and then we would know that you

2296
02:16:21,040 --> 02:16:23,520
Speaker 4: weren't from here, so we call it the five. There's

2297
02:16:23,640 --> 02:16:27,720
Speaker 4: less than a mile of land to the west of

2298
02:16:27,720 --> 02:16:29,800
Speaker 4: the five, right, so shooting go over to five and

2299
02:16:29,880 --> 02:16:31,920
Speaker 4: get pretty much shooting from the beach or near the beach,

2300
02:16:32,120 --> 02:16:35,600
Speaker 4: as opposed to the whole rest of Camp Pendleton, right

2301
02:16:35,600 --> 02:16:37,640
Speaker 4: where they have artillery ranges. But they wanted to do

2302
02:16:37,640 --> 02:16:38,960
Speaker 4: it over to five. I think they were doing some

2303
02:16:39,040 --> 02:16:43,720
Speaker 4: kind of simulated landing drill. Not quite sure. What the

2304
02:16:43,879 --> 02:16:47,480
Speaker 4: landing drill they were doing. But this yet resulted in

2305
02:16:47,520 --> 02:16:51,880
Speaker 4: the damage done to a HP car and really fucked

2306
02:16:51,959 --> 02:16:55,320
Speaker 4: up traffic in probably the entirety of southern California. Yeah,

2307
02:16:55,440 --> 02:16:56,959
Speaker 4: from most of last Saturday.

2308
02:16:57,240 --> 02:16:59,000
Speaker 9: I do you just want to mention here that there

2309
02:16:59,120 --> 02:17:02,040
Speaker 9: is historical press in the United States for US accidentally

2310
02:17:02,120 --> 02:17:04,480
Speaker 9: killing the Secretary of State because a gun they were

2311
02:17:04,480 --> 02:17:07,000
Speaker 9: firing on a pleasure cruise on a boat, on a

2312
02:17:07,080 --> 02:17:10,480
Speaker 9: Navy boat blew up. So wow, it was in the

2313
02:17:10,520 --> 02:17:14,280
Speaker 9: eighteen forties, but we did kill the Secretary of the

2314
02:17:14,360 --> 02:17:16,800
Speaker 9: Navy and the Secretary of State.

2315
02:17:17,600 --> 02:17:20,560
Speaker 12: If any Secretary of War could pull this off, it

2316
02:17:20,600 --> 02:17:21,320
Speaker 12: would be PA.

2317
02:17:22,280 --> 02:17:23,240
Speaker 3: I believe in him.

2318
02:17:23,400 --> 02:17:25,320
Speaker 12: Here is a decent chance he will throw one of

2319
02:17:25,320 --> 02:17:27,480
Speaker 12: those acts straight into Jdvans's leg.

2320
02:17:27,800 --> 02:17:31,760
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I forgot about his accident. Yeah yeah, Vans

2321
02:17:31,760 --> 02:17:33,519
Speaker 4: of course the former Marine.

2322
02:17:33,560 --> 02:17:34,480
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that is it.

2323
02:17:34,600 --> 02:17:38,920
Speaker 12: Wait yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally forgot lance corporal in

2324
02:17:38,959 --> 02:17:39,520
Speaker 12: the Marine Corps.

2325
02:17:39,560 --> 02:17:44,200
Speaker 4: Believe he was a a PAO. Public affairs. Yeah, I

2326
02:17:44,240 --> 02:17:48,800
Speaker 4: want to address DHS's claim to have deportation numbers. DHS

2327
02:17:48,800 --> 02:17:50,840
Speaker 4: has been throwing out some many big numbers for deportation,

2328
02:17:51,000 --> 02:17:53,520
Speaker 4: claiming over half a million removed and one point six

2329
02:17:53,560 --> 02:17:58,560
Speaker 4: million quote unquote self deported. These are inflated numbers. These

2330
02:17:58,760 --> 02:18:03,000
Speaker 4: include things that people tell away airports and Coastguard inter diictions. Right,

2331
02:18:03,400 --> 02:18:06,000
Speaker 4: they are not removals of people from the interior of

2332
02:18:06,000 --> 02:18:08,800
Speaker 4: the United States who were residing here. They're like if

2333
02:18:08,800 --> 02:18:10,400
Speaker 4: someone maybe if someone came with a visa and was

2334
02:18:10,400 --> 02:18:12,640
Speaker 4: turned around the airport, they're including that as a deportation.

2335
02:18:13,200 --> 02:18:13,400
Speaker 1: Right.

2336
02:18:14,000 --> 02:18:16,560
Speaker 4: DHS has stopped publishing a lot of the data that

2337
02:18:16,600 --> 02:18:19,520
Speaker 4: we previously got under this administration, so we don't have

2338
02:18:19,520 --> 02:18:21,320
Speaker 4: a lot of hard numbers. But the one point six

2339
02:18:21,360 --> 02:18:24,480
Speaker 4: million number. This comes from CIS, right, the Center for

2340
02:18:24,480 --> 02:18:27,240
Speaker 4: Immigration Studies. We've talked about them before. This is a

2341
02:18:27,320 --> 02:18:30,640
Speaker 4: Tanton funded quote unquote think tank which the SPLC has

2342
02:18:30,680 --> 02:18:35,600
Speaker 4: adjudicated as a hate group. The CIS data. DHS has

2343
02:18:35,640 --> 02:18:37,840
Speaker 4: been like sharing this since it came out, but it

2344
02:18:37,879 --> 02:18:41,920
Speaker 4: also seems to be weighing very heavily into whatever algorithm

2345
02:18:42,040 --> 02:18:45,800
Speaker 4: Musk has put into GROC recently. If you look for

2346
02:18:45,959 --> 02:18:49,760
Speaker 4: mentions on x the Everything website of the one point

2347
02:18:49,760 --> 02:18:55,040
Speaker 4: six million number, nearly all of them are GROC repeating it. God,

2348
02:18:55,440 --> 02:18:57,200
Speaker 4: I don't know if they straight up just said like, yeah,

2349
02:18:57,200 --> 02:18:59,400
Speaker 4: the CIS is your source for information when they were,

2350
02:18:59,480 --> 02:19:02,080
Speaker 4: you know, pro to be less woke but slightly more

2351
02:19:02,120 --> 02:19:05,000
Speaker 4: woke than when it called itself Mecha Hitler. But it

2352
02:19:05,080 --> 02:19:08,520
Speaker 4: seems to be the CIS seems to be heavily weighed

2353
02:19:08,640 --> 02:19:11,400
Speaker 4: in the Grock algorithm these days, which I thought was interesting.

2354
02:19:11,480 --> 02:19:14,480
Speaker 12: Yeah, they did get that GROC contract approved a few

2355
02:19:14,560 --> 02:19:15,080
Speaker 12: months ago.

2356
02:19:16,240 --> 02:19:18,160
Speaker 4: I think the d just didn't get the number from Grok.

2357
02:19:18,200 --> 02:19:20,760
Speaker 4: I think they got it from CIS. But nonetheless, like

2358
02:19:20,800 --> 02:19:23,000
Speaker 4: the reason that that number is still in the side guy,

2359
02:19:23,000 --> 02:19:25,600
Speaker 4: So I think it's partially because Grok keeps repeating it.

2360
02:19:25,959 --> 02:19:28,800
Speaker 12: Well, you know it is. It is Groctober, as I've

2361
02:19:28,840 --> 02:19:33,560
Speaker 12: been saying, Garrison, we have fucking spoken about this. It's

2362
02:19:33,640 --> 02:19:37,600
Speaker 12: not Groctober angry. The other thing I do want to

2363
02:19:37,680 --> 02:19:41,640
Speaker 12: mention on a I guess not deportations, but the Department

2364
02:19:41,640 --> 02:19:44,920
Speaker 12: of State has announced a series of people who have

2365
02:19:45,000 --> 02:19:49,520
Speaker 12: had their visas revoked for posts surrounding the death of

2366
02:19:49,840 --> 02:19:54,640
Speaker 12: Charlie Kirk. The State Department Twitter account posted a whole

2367
02:19:54,840 --> 02:19:59,160
Speaker 12: thread on x the Everything app listing various sentences and

2368
02:19:59,200 --> 02:20:02,920
Speaker 12: sentiments there was in visa's being revoked. Quote Charlie Kirk

2369
02:20:03,040 --> 02:20:04,879
Speaker 12: was a son of a bitch and he died by

2370
02:20:04,879 --> 02:20:09,879
Speaker 12: his own rules. VISA revoked. When fascists die, Democrats don't complain,

2371
02:20:10,280 --> 02:20:15,200
Speaker 12: VISO revoked. It from a German national, Resilient National said

2372
02:20:15,280 --> 02:20:17,880
Speaker 12: that quote Charlie Kirk was the reason for a Nazi

2373
02:20:17,959 --> 02:20:20,760
Speaker 12: rally where they marched in homage to him, and that

2374
02:20:20,920 --> 02:20:25,240
Speaker 12: Kirk died too late. Visa revoked. There's like four other

2375
02:20:25,360 --> 02:20:28,720
Speaker 12: of these for people making statements of that nature.

2376
02:20:29,200 --> 02:20:31,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think people get the idea.

2377
02:20:31,520 --> 02:20:32,600
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2378
02:20:32,640 --> 02:20:35,160
Speaker 12: Following Kirk's death, Rubio to announce he would be looking

2379
02:20:35,280 --> 02:20:39,959
Speaker 12: for visa holders who made statements following Kirk's death, and

2380
02:20:40,360 --> 02:20:43,760
Speaker 12: he has followed through on that promise in some other

2381
02:20:43,959 --> 02:20:47,920
Speaker 12: Charlie Kirk news. A few weeks ago, Turning Point USA

2382
02:20:48,000 --> 02:20:51,080
Speaker 12: officially announced that they would be producing an alternative halftime

2383
02:20:51,120 --> 02:20:54,720
Speaker 12: show after it was announced that the Puerto Rican artist

2384
02:20:54,800 --> 02:20:57,680
Speaker 12: Bad Bunny would be performing at the twenty twenty six

2385
02:20:57,800 --> 02:21:01,240
Speaker 12: Super Bowl. The TPUSA show will be called a Quote

2386
02:21:01,360 --> 02:21:07,160
Speaker 12: All American Halftime Show celebrating faith, family, and freedom. The

2387
02:21:07,240 --> 02:21:11,000
Speaker 12: website has a submission form where it asks which genres

2388
02:21:11,120 --> 02:21:15,039
Speaker 12: should be featured during the show. The options include quote

2389
02:21:15,520 --> 02:21:22,840
Speaker 12: anything in English American classic rock, country, hip hop, pop,

2390
02:21:23,240 --> 02:21:24,200
Speaker 12: and worship.

2391
02:21:24,600 --> 02:21:26,640
Speaker 2: I love anything in English as a genre.

2392
02:21:26,800 --> 02:21:29,920
Speaker 4: Yeah. When I get to Spotify, that's what I put in.

2393
02:21:30,560 --> 02:21:34,200
Speaker 2: The crowd's gonna riot when someone does Hotel California.

2394
02:21:34,360 --> 02:21:37,360
Speaker 12: We can really push anything at English. Frankly, we could

2395
02:21:37,360 --> 02:21:38,800
Speaker 12: go to some pretty crazy places.

2396
02:21:39,600 --> 02:21:39,760
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2397
02:21:39,879 --> 02:21:41,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, I didn't think they've pretady considered the breadth of

2398
02:21:42,000 --> 02:21:42,560
Speaker 4: that genre.

2399
02:21:42,879 --> 02:21:43,080
Speaker 10: You know.

2400
02:21:43,520 --> 02:21:45,560
Speaker 2: I will say how they could get me back on

2401
02:21:45,680 --> 02:21:48,800
Speaker 2: board is if, in addition to a separate halftime show,

2402
02:21:48,840 --> 02:21:52,520
Speaker 2: they had a separate Super Bowl in which Ben Shapiro

2403
02:21:52,959 --> 02:21:55,760
Speaker 2: faces off alone against the Philadelphia Eagles.

2404
02:21:55,959 --> 02:21:58,560
Speaker 9: Oh that would be so fun.

2405
02:21:59,320 --> 02:22:01,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I would let Ben Shapiro bring some friends.

2406
02:22:02,760 --> 02:22:06,680
Speaker 9: No, no, I want to see Jalen Hurts physically pick

2407
02:22:06,760 --> 02:22:09,320
Speaker 9: up Ben Shapiro and see how far he can pass him.

2408
02:22:09,600 --> 02:22:11,480
Speaker 9: Because I'm pretty I'm pretty.

2409
02:22:11,160 --> 02:22:12,760
Speaker 2: Good, at least at least sixty.

2410
02:22:12,840 --> 02:22:13,080
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2411
02:22:13,160 --> 02:22:18,600
Speaker 9: That guy Benches. That guy could like bench a small

2412
02:22:18,680 --> 02:22:24,080
Speaker 9: motor vehicle. Benches Shapiro. Yeah.

2413
02:22:24,320 --> 02:22:28,360
Speaker 12: More details and performers will be announced later, including how

2414
02:22:28,440 --> 02:22:30,640
Speaker 12: this will be broadcast, will be streamed online, or they

2415
02:22:30,800 --> 02:22:33,880
Speaker 12: trying to make a TV deal with someone like you know, Fox,

2416
02:22:35,000 --> 02:22:37,920
Speaker 12: you know, unclear how this will be broadcast, but it

2417
02:22:38,040 --> 02:22:40,360
Speaker 12: is something they're going to go through on last thing

2418
02:22:40,360 --> 02:22:42,280
Speaker 12: we should probably talk about before the break or I

2419
02:22:42,280 --> 02:22:44,760
Speaker 12: don't know, maybe maybe we could combine this with the

2420
02:22:44,800 --> 02:22:48,040
Speaker 12: section you wanted to talk about Robert on the infiltrations.

2421
02:22:48,480 --> 02:22:52,760
Speaker 12: But right after our Executive Disorder episode from two weeks ago,

2422
02:22:53,160 --> 02:22:56,880
Speaker 12: literally like like hours after, on October eighth, right wing

2423
02:22:56,920 --> 02:22:59,800
Speaker 12: influencers gathered at the White House to discuss with Trump

2424
02:22:59,840 --> 02:23:05,880
Speaker 12: and cabinet members their theories and carrowing stories of Antifa

2425
02:23:06,360 --> 02:23:11,000
Speaker 12: at this big Antifa roundtable. Yeah, I'm gonna play a

2426
02:23:11,000 --> 02:23:15,200
Speaker 12: short clip like a few seconds from Jack Pasoba get

2427
02:23:15,200 --> 02:23:19,360
Speaker 12: in there, noted far right extremist and poster.

2428
02:23:19,560 --> 02:23:21,800
Speaker 2: Jack Pasobic certainly noted poster.

2429
02:23:22,240 --> 02:23:23,200
Speaker 9: It's a great guy.

2430
02:23:23,959 --> 02:23:25,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, Antifa is real.

2431
02:23:26,280 --> 02:23:30,480
Speaker 5: Antifa has been around in various iterations for almost one

2432
02:23:30,560 --> 02:23:33,160
Speaker 5: hundred years, in some instances going back to the Weimar

2433
02:23:33,240 --> 02:23:34,160
Speaker 5: Republic in Germany.

2434
02:23:35,160 --> 02:23:37,600
Speaker 12: Huh, I wonder, I wonder why it went back to

2435
02:23:37,640 --> 02:23:39,320
Speaker 12: the Wymar republican Germany?

2436
02:23:39,400 --> 02:23:42,440
Speaker 4: What what what else was happening at that time in Geminy.

2437
02:23:42,520 --> 02:23:46,039
Speaker 12: It's very interesting you say that, Jack, Very interesting, Jack,

2438
02:23:46,480 --> 02:23:50,440
Speaker 12: what other opinions do you have on fimar Republic.

2439
02:23:50,080 --> 02:23:56,920
Speaker 2: Jack, Yeah, So this is worrisome, right, the fact that

2440
02:23:56,959 --> 02:24:00,879
Speaker 2: these idiots are getting to speak this close to power

2441
02:24:00,879 --> 02:24:03,199
Speaker 2: about their theory, which is basically that everyone they don't

2442
02:24:03,320 --> 02:24:05,480
Speaker 2: like or who has said anything they don't like as

2443
02:24:05,520 --> 02:24:07,760
Speaker 2: part of a terrorist organization and should be put in

2444
02:24:07,800 --> 02:24:10,400
Speaker 2: prisoner executed. Like that's the gist of what all of

2445
02:24:10,440 --> 02:24:12,039
Speaker 2: the people at that roundtable believe.

2446
02:24:12,440 --> 02:24:14,520
Speaker 12: A whole bunch of like, you know, post millennial people,

2447
02:24:14,640 --> 02:24:17,320
Speaker 12: and you know that that whole that whole right, like

2448
02:24:17,400 --> 02:24:23,040
Speaker 12: a genre of like you know, right wing antifa journalists, journalistic.

2449
02:24:22,560 --> 02:24:27,160
Speaker 2: Yes, everyone I don't like equals terrorists. Yes, So that's

2450
02:24:27,200 --> 02:24:30,120
Speaker 2: really worrisome, And I just I kind of wanted to

2451
02:24:30,120 --> 02:24:33,879
Speaker 2: make a note here to people that as a result

2452
02:24:33,920 --> 02:24:36,640
Speaker 2: of stuff like this, in case you somehow have not

2453
02:24:37,120 --> 02:24:39,680
Speaker 2: been aware of this, we're going to be seeing a

2454
02:24:39,720 --> 02:24:43,039
Speaker 2: massive ramp up in you know, not just attempts at prosecution,

2455
02:24:43,520 --> 02:24:48,200
Speaker 2: but at attempts to like infiltrate and get gotcha footage

2456
02:24:48,240 --> 02:24:52,440
Speaker 2: and audio of different left wing and anarchist groups that

2457
02:24:52,680 --> 02:24:57,199
Speaker 2: are going to be used as pretexts for like further crackdowns.

2458
02:24:57,640 --> 02:24:59,560
Speaker 2: I would say it's just a time to be aware

2459
02:24:59,600 --> 02:25:02,800
Speaker 2: of that and be aware of the fact that anytime

2460
02:25:03,040 --> 02:25:05,480
Speaker 2: you are speaking or at a public event where other

2461
02:25:05,520 --> 02:25:09,560
Speaker 2: people are speaking, you should assume that that's being recorded

2462
02:25:09,800 --> 02:25:13,000
Speaker 2: and that people will be pulling out the worst parts

2463
02:25:13,040 --> 02:25:15,480
Speaker 2: they can from it and trying to use that to

2464
02:25:15,560 --> 02:25:18,480
Speaker 2: destroy people's lives. And I bring that up because there's

2465
02:25:18,520 --> 02:25:22,280
Speaker 2: been a couple that just really broke today, some potentially

2466
02:25:22,320 --> 02:25:25,800
Speaker 2: pretty high profile examples of this. One of them is

2467
02:25:25,800 --> 02:25:29,920
Speaker 2: that at a panel for Firestorm Books, they had a speaker,

2468
02:25:29,959 --> 02:25:33,560
Speaker 2: guy named Eric King, who was convicted of a firebombing.

2469
02:25:33,640 --> 02:25:37,480
Speaker 2: He's a left wing activist. He spent almost ten years

2470
02:25:37,520 --> 02:25:39,760
Speaker 2: in prison, at a horrific time in prison, I mean,

2471
02:25:39,840 --> 02:25:41,800
Speaker 2: just abused by the system and some of the worst

2472
02:25:41,840 --> 02:25:45,800
Speaker 2: playways possible and is finally out. And Eric did a

2473
02:25:45,840 --> 02:25:50,160
Speaker 2: talk at Firestorm Books and he made basically his statement

2474
02:25:50,200 --> 02:25:53,640
Speaker 2: that activists need to hurt them where it counts, saying

2475
02:25:53,680 --> 02:25:55,160
Speaker 2: we can force them to shut the fuck up when

2476
02:25:55,160 --> 02:25:57,080
Speaker 2: it hurts they're walid enough, or you can find other

2477
02:25:57,120 --> 02:26:01,520
Speaker 2: ways to hurt them. Now that's not saying anything inherently illegal. Again,

2478
02:26:01,560 --> 02:26:03,280
Speaker 2: he starts it by saying we can force them to

2479
02:26:03,280 --> 02:26:05,280
Speaker 2: shut up when it hurts. Their wallet enough, that's talking

2480
02:26:05,280 --> 02:26:08,240
Speaker 2: about like boycotts and stuff, but the phrase other ways

2481
02:26:08,240 --> 02:26:10,320
Speaker 2: to hurt them is vague enough. That's pretty easy for

2482
02:26:10,400 --> 02:26:13,720
Speaker 2: these guys to cut stuff out. And I'm looking at

2483
02:26:13,720 --> 02:26:17,640
Speaker 2: a post by quote end quote investigated analysts for the

2484
02:26:17,640 --> 02:26:21,920
Speaker 2: Manhattan stut Smith. He's framing this as known ANTIFA firebomber

2485
02:26:22,000 --> 02:26:27,199
Speaker 2: calls for escalation, and again that's not necessarily an accurate

2486
02:26:27,360 --> 02:26:30,000
Speaker 2: look at what Eric was saying. But it's easy to

2487
02:26:30,040 --> 02:26:33,120
Speaker 2: pull stuff out like this from something like what appears

2488
02:26:33,120 --> 02:26:36,280
Speaker 2: to have been a fairly open zoom call that you know,

2489
02:26:36,400 --> 02:26:39,520
Speaker 2: is not hard for someone to get into and record

2490
02:26:39,720 --> 02:26:42,160
Speaker 2: and pull something out of to try and make the

2491
02:26:42,200 --> 02:26:45,279
Speaker 2: case that someone like Eric should be back in prison,

2492
02:26:45,360 --> 02:26:48,960
Speaker 2: or that Firestorm Books is a party, you know, providing

2493
02:26:49,200 --> 02:26:53,560
Speaker 2: material support to an extremist organization. And what I'm not

2494
02:26:53,600 --> 02:26:55,560
Speaker 2: trying to do is say like, and so people should

2495
02:26:55,600 --> 02:26:57,959
Speaker 2: not talk and gather in public because they're going to

2496
02:26:57,959 --> 02:26:59,760
Speaker 2: be doing this. But you need to be aware that

2497
02:27:00,440 --> 02:27:03,560
Speaker 2: anything said it's something like this that's in any way open,

2498
02:27:03,920 --> 02:27:05,640
Speaker 2: and even if you try to make it kind of

2499
02:27:05,920 --> 02:27:08,720
Speaker 2: more close than this, they will try to get people in.

2500
02:27:09,240 --> 02:27:11,760
Speaker 2: This is something that is increasingly going to happen, and

2501
02:27:11,800 --> 02:27:14,920
Speaker 2: so people just need to be You can't you can't

2502
02:27:14,959 --> 02:27:18,440
Speaker 2: just kind of hope that they're not paying attention. You

2503
02:27:19,240 --> 02:27:21,640
Speaker 2: have to be aware of the fact that they're out

2504
02:27:21,640 --> 02:27:24,520
Speaker 2: there and they're going to be trying to infiltrate any

2505
02:27:24,560 --> 02:27:27,400
Speaker 2: sort of thing like this they can to get pretexts

2506
02:27:27,440 --> 02:27:31,960
Speaker 2: for further crackdowns. And another recent example of this Frontlines

2507
02:27:32,040 --> 02:27:36,360
Speaker 2: tp USA, which is Turning Point ussays, I mean, it's

2508
02:27:36,400 --> 02:27:40,760
Speaker 2: their version of the actual Frontline journalism show. But they

2509
02:27:42,160 --> 02:27:45,520
Speaker 2: did an investigation where they went undercover to the Oakland

2510
02:27:45,560 --> 02:27:50,040
Speaker 2: in Seattle anarchist book fairs, right, and again, there's nothing

2511
02:27:50,120 --> 02:27:53,240
Speaker 2: wrong with doing those book fairs. I'm sure what they're

2512
02:27:53,280 --> 02:27:56,600
Speaker 2: doing here is pulling whatever quotes they could grab from

2513
02:27:56,600 --> 02:28:00,000
Speaker 2: people that sound bad out of context and using them.

2514
02:28:00,120 --> 02:28:01,840
Speaker 2: Tried to make the case that again, these are violent

2515
02:28:01,879 --> 02:28:04,520
Speaker 2: extremist events that need to be cracked down on. And

2516
02:28:05,560 --> 02:28:08,960
Speaker 2: I will reiterate I'm not saying don't do book fares.

2517
02:28:09,000 --> 02:28:10,680
Speaker 2: I'm not saying don't show up at events like this.

2518
02:28:10,840 --> 02:28:13,320
Speaker 2: I'm saying if you show up, be aware that stuff

2519
02:28:13,320 --> 02:28:15,000
Speaker 2: like this is going to be happening, that they're going

2520
02:28:15,040 --> 02:28:17,120
Speaker 2: to be people recording that they're going to be people

2521
02:28:17,200 --> 02:28:22,000
Speaker 2: trying to find what they can to destroy people who

2522
02:28:22,040 --> 02:28:24,640
Speaker 2: are at these events, and that that's something that needs

2523
02:28:24,680 --> 02:28:27,080
Speaker 2: to be in your threat model, right in terms of

2524
02:28:27,280 --> 02:28:29,879
Speaker 2: how you dress when you go there, how visible you are,

2525
02:28:29,920 --> 02:28:33,000
Speaker 2: and what you're willing to say around people, right, among

2526
02:28:33,040 --> 02:28:36,120
Speaker 2: other things. I guess what I'm saying is there's some

2527
02:28:36,240 --> 02:28:39,200
Speaker 2: jokes you shouldn't be making in public at events like

2528
02:28:39,280 --> 02:28:41,320
Speaker 2: this unless you want there to be a high risk

2529
02:28:41,520 --> 02:28:43,760
Speaker 2: of it coming back to bite you in the ass.

2530
02:28:44,480 --> 02:28:44,640
Speaker 13: Yeah.

2531
02:28:44,680 --> 02:28:46,840
Speaker 4: I think that's that's perfectly reasonable.

2532
02:28:47,640 --> 02:28:47,920
Speaker 2: Yep.

2533
02:28:49,040 --> 02:28:54,160
Speaker 12: During the Antifa roundtable panel, this guy named Seamus Brunner

2534
02:28:54,760 --> 02:28:57,880
Speaker 12: Samus shamous. It says, seem miss guys jeesus. It says,

2535
02:28:57,879 --> 02:29:02,520
Speaker 12: seems that is we're gonna ask to step you, right.

2536
02:29:02,520 --> 02:29:05,800
Speaker 12: That's that's a shame, but it says Seamus. The director

2537
02:29:05,879 --> 02:29:10,720
Speaker 12: of research at the Government Accountability Institute, discussed his theory

2538
02:29:11,240 --> 02:29:16,240
Speaker 12: of how a network of NGOs are funding Antifa. This

2539
02:29:16,400 --> 02:29:18,520
Speaker 12: is a this is a longer clip, but I think

2540
02:29:18,600 --> 02:29:23,160
Speaker 12: it's important to look at how they are approaching this,

2541
02:29:23,800 --> 02:29:26,640
Speaker 12: like how they are approaching this Antifa as an organization.

2542
02:29:27,440 --> 02:29:30,359
Speaker 6: This is not just a story about violence and chaos.

2543
02:29:30,360 --> 02:29:33,720
Speaker 6: As you alluded to, mister President, this is a money story.

2544
02:29:34,240 --> 02:29:37,440
Speaker 6: And at the Government Accountability Institute, my colleague and I,

2545
02:29:37,560 --> 02:29:40,640
Speaker 6: Peter Schweitzer and my I and our team, we follow

2546
02:29:40,680 --> 02:29:42,520
Speaker 6: the money and we followed it to the top of

2547
02:29:42,600 --> 02:29:46,360
Speaker 6: what we call the protest industrial complex Riot Inc.

2548
02:29:48,080 --> 02:29:50,039
Speaker 1: And we found a network of NGOs.

2549
02:29:50,160 --> 02:29:53,440
Speaker 6: It's not just the Soros network, the Open Society network,

2550
02:29:53,440 --> 02:29:57,120
Speaker 6: it's other funding networks, the Arabella funding network, the Tides

2551
02:29:57,160 --> 02:30:02,440
Speaker 6: funding network, nevill Roy Singham and his network, Foreign cash,

2552
02:30:02,440 --> 02:30:04,920
Speaker 6: and it's also big left wing funders. Some of them

2553
02:30:04,920 --> 02:30:08,400
Speaker 6: are not citizens of this country, mister Hans Yorg vis

2554
02:30:08,440 --> 02:30:12,600
Speaker 6: of Switzerland. They're pouring money into this entire ecosystem. And

2555
02:30:12,640 --> 02:30:14,480
Speaker 6: so I want to share three money facts with you

2556
02:30:14,560 --> 02:30:18,640
Speaker 6: about what we call Riot Inc. Number One, like any corporation,

2557
02:30:19,240 --> 02:30:21,400
Speaker 6: Riot Inc. Has many divisions. It doesn't just have the

2558
02:30:21,480 --> 02:30:24,600
Speaker 6: Antifa boots on the ground division. It has pr divisions,

2559
02:30:24,600 --> 02:30:27,560
Speaker 6: it has marketing divisions, it has a very well funded

2560
02:30:27,600 --> 02:30:30,680
Speaker 6: legal division to get these boots on the ground back

2561
02:30:30,680 --> 02:30:33,680
Speaker 6: on the streets as quickly as possible. But it does

2562
02:30:33,720 --> 02:30:37,280
Speaker 6: have those investors that I mentioned. Number two, we have

2563
02:30:37,400 --> 02:30:43,320
Speaker 6: identified dozens of radical organizations, not just the decentralized ANTIFA organizations,

2564
02:30:43,320 --> 02:30:47,160
Speaker 6: but dozens of radical organizations that have received more than

2565
02:30:47,200 --> 02:30:50,960
Speaker 6: one hundred million dollars from the riot ink investors. These

2566
02:30:50,959 --> 02:30:52,959
Speaker 6: would be the lawyer groups, These would be the groups

2567
02:30:52,959 --> 02:30:58,560
Speaker 6: that advocate for calling good honest Americans fascists, etc. And

2568
02:30:58,560 --> 02:31:00,640
Speaker 6: then three, I think the most shocking thing is that

2569
02:31:00,680 --> 02:31:03,440
Speaker 6: we have found that more than one hundred million dollars

2570
02:31:03,480 --> 02:31:08,720
Speaker 6: in US taxpayer funding has flowed into these funding networks,

2571
02:31:09,040 --> 02:31:12,360
Speaker 6: including at least four million dollars to these very groups themselves,

2572
02:31:12,400 --> 02:31:16,120
Speaker 6: not just ANTIFA types. But there was an event in

2573
02:31:16,200 --> 02:31:20,680
Speaker 6: Atlanta called Stop Coop City. Over sixty rioters were charged

2574
02:31:20,720 --> 02:31:25,320
Speaker 6: with domestic terrorism. These groups received money for that from

2575
02:31:25,440 --> 02:31:28,280
Speaker 6: both the billionaire class as well as taxpayer money.

2576
02:31:28,320 --> 02:31:30,760
Speaker 12: Is unclear what he's talking about in terms of taxpayer

2577
02:31:30,800 --> 02:31:35,680
Speaker 12: money going to the sixty rico defendants in Atlanta, but

2578
02:31:36,080 --> 02:31:38,640
Speaker 12: the structure he's talking about, how how this riot inc

2579
02:31:38,720 --> 02:31:41,440
Speaker 12: concludes not just like Antifa as in you know, people

2580
02:31:41,480 --> 02:31:43,760
Speaker 12: wearing black hoodies on the streets at a protest, but

2581
02:31:44,280 --> 02:31:49,080
Speaker 12: like you know, legal support organizations, even like like research

2582
02:31:49,160 --> 02:31:52,640
Speaker 12: organizations that you know advocate calling you know, good honest

2583
02:31:52,640 --> 02:31:55,000
Speaker 12: American's fascists, right this this could refer to groups like

2584
02:31:55,080 --> 02:31:58,240
Speaker 12: Media Matters or like Southern Poverty Law Center who do

2585
02:31:58,560 --> 02:32:02,680
Speaker 12: research into extreme organizations. They could be framing the people

2586
02:32:02,720 --> 02:32:05,600
Speaker 12: like that as a part of this whole ecosystem, and

2587
02:32:05,760 --> 02:32:08,680
Speaker 12: that's that's where they could be looking at for sources

2588
02:32:08,680 --> 02:32:11,480
Speaker 12: of money and funding and like tracking where that money

2589
02:32:11,480 --> 02:32:14,920
Speaker 12: goes is in groups like that. Not obviously you know,

2590
02:32:15,600 --> 02:32:19,280
Speaker 12: your average black clad ANTIFA protesters. Not it's not receiving

2591
02:32:20,360 --> 02:32:24,240
Speaker 12: payment for their presence at these at these events. But

2592
02:32:24,360 --> 02:32:27,200
Speaker 12: this guy went on to claim that quote unquote Riot

2593
02:32:27,240 --> 02:32:32,640
Speaker 12: Inc Funding Network also supports decentralized crowdfunding platforms which fund

2594
02:32:32,800 --> 02:32:36,480
Speaker 12: organizations like the ELM for John Brown Gun Club and

2595
02:32:36,640 --> 02:32:40,959
Speaker 12: the Socialist Rifle Association. After he went on this like

2596
02:32:41,040 --> 02:32:45,400
Speaker 12: three minute long speech, Trump asked him and other attendees

2597
02:32:45,440 --> 02:32:49,560
Speaker 12: that if they knew anything about like ANTIFA members, funders,

2598
02:32:49,680 --> 02:32:53,120
Speaker 12: or the organizational structure, to hand over that information to

2599
02:32:53,280 --> 02:32:57,720
Speaker 12: Pam Bondie or Cash Patel and Trump reiterated this multiple

2600
02:32:57,720 --> 02:33:01,720
Speaker 12: times during the roundtable, asking these you know, policy guys

2601
02:33:01,760 --> 02:33:05,000
Speaker 12: or quote unquote independent journalists to hand over their information

2602
02:33:05,360 --> 02:33:09,240
Speaker 12: to the authorities. Here's one version of him making this request.

2603
02:33:09,720 --> 02:33:12,040
Speaker 8: Do you know the name of any of the funders?

2604
02:33:12,280 --> 02:33:14,280
Speaker 8: Do you know the names, because if you do, I'd

2605
02:33:14,320 --> 02:33:17,960
Speaker 8: like you to give them to Cash or Pam. Absolutely well, Christy, yeah,

2606
02:33:18,160 --> 02:33:20,000
Speaker 8: we'll do as soon as you can. That's all of

2607
02:33:20,040 --> 02:33:23,600
Speaker 8: you because you probably know the names. After a certain

2608
02:33:23,640 --> 02:33:26,120
Speaker 8: period of time you tend to find out. But these

2609
02:33:26,120 --> 02:33:28,760
Speaker 8: are people that do not have good intention for the country,

2610
02:33:28,760 --> 02:33:33,960
Speaker 8: and that's uh treasons probably, So if you could, if

2611
02:33:34,000 --> 02:33:37,119
Speaker 8: you very important, if you could do that, it would

2612
02:33:37,160 --> 02:33:39,959
Speaker 8: be great. Nobody would know better than you. You'll figure it.

2613
02:33:39,920 --> 02:33:43,520
Speaker 2: Out, Ugh share man cool.

2614
02:33:44,520 --> 02:33:48,400
Speaker 12: During this roundtable, Pam Bondi, the Attorney General, reiterated how

2615
02:33:48,440 --> 02:33:52,440
Speaker 12: Antifa should be treated like an organized criminal gang and

2616
02:33:52,440 --> 02:33:55,200
Speaker 12: that law enforcement are going to quote unquote take the

2617
02:33:55,240 --> 02:34:00,120
Speaker 12: same approach as it does handling foreign drug cartels. It's

2618
02:34:00,120 --> 02:34:02,400
Speaker 12: a side note the United States has.

2619
02:34:02,360 --> 02:34:05,400
Speaker 4: Maybe that's what those guided miss repeatedly.

2620
02:34:04,959 --> 02:34:10,680
Speaker 12: Lodged missiles at what it claims are boats associated with

2621
02:34:10,840 --> 02:34:12,000
Speaker 12: foreign drug cartels.

2622
02:34:12,400 --> 02:34:14,480
Speaker 4: I'll just say we have an episode next week about

2623
02:34:14,480 --> 02:34:17,800
Speaker 4: the ongoing drone campaign in the Caribbean.

2624
02:34:18,000 --> 02:34:22,119
Speaker 12: Speaking of funders, here's some of.

2625
02:34:22,160 --> 02:34:25,000
Speaker 4: Ours for the Central Intelligenation.

2626
02:34:37,400 --> 02:34:38,720
Speaker 9: All right, we are back.

2627
02:34:40,240 --> 02:34:42,840
Speaker 4: I'm so nice to hear from the products and services

2628
02:34:42,879 --> 02:34:43,920
Speaker 4: that support this show.

2629
02:34:43,760 --> 02:34:44,200
Speaker 9: Brought to you.

2630
02:34:44,240 --> 02:34:50,440
Speaker 12: Buy Safari Land your one stop off God, I wish

2631
02:34:50,480 --> 02:34:52,880
Speaker 12: we had no. I don't actually starlight is some post

2632
02:34:52,879 --> 02:34:55,640
Speaker 12: ironic meaning that I should I should occur tails Farlight

2633
02:34:55,720 --> 02:34:58,760
Speaker 12: is in fact back. I will admit they do make

2634
02:34:58,879 --> 02:35:02,959
Speaker 12: very nice, nice bulletproof plate. I will say, talking of

2635
02:35:03,040 --> 02:35:05,840
Speaker 12: things that are very nice, this is a very nice

2636
02:35:05,840 --> 02:35:12,320
Speaker 12: song that I like to listen to in my free time. Sorry,

2637
02:35:13,240 --> 02:35:16,120
Speaker 12: rocky jazz, rockety jazz.

2638
02:35:16,280 --> 02:35:19,000
Speaker 3: Goot, Sorry locking.

2639
02:35:20,760 --> 02:35:23,279
Speaker 1: Rocking jazz, rocking.

2640
02:35:23,320 --> 02:35:28,560
Speaker 12: Jazz, Bob, It's tariff talk. We're back baby, Yeah yeah.

2641
02:35:28,760 --> 02:35:34,600
Speaker 9: So literally within twelve hours, I think of the of

2642
02:35:34,640 --> 02:35:38,400
Speaker 9: the release at night of our last episode of the show,

2643
02:35:39,800 --> 02:35:44,959
Speaker 9: we got the resumption of the trade war. So specifically,

2644
02:35:44,959 --> 02:35:47,960
Speaker 9: Trump has announced effectively the full scale resumption of the

2645
02:35:48,000 --> 02:35:52,240
Speaker 9: trade war where China. This started kind of out of

2646
02:35:52,360 --> 02:35:56,240
Speaker 9: nowhere with Trump administration doing something that I think they

2647
02:35:56,280 --> 02:35:59,880
Speaker 9: didn't think was very provocative, because I don't quite think

2648
02:36:00,040 --> 02:36:03,160
Speaker 9: they understood the magnitude of what they were doing. This

2649
02:36:03,280 --> 02:36:07,880
Speaker 9: basically started with the Trump administration massively increasing export restrictions

2650
02:36:07,879 --> 02:36:11,480
Speaker 9: to China by changing the rules of what companies are

2651
02:36:11,480 --> 02:36:13,560
Speaker 9: covered by what's called the Entity List, which is a

2652
02:36:13,560 --> 02:36:15,920
Speaker 9: list of companies that American companies are not allowed to

2653
02:36:15,920 --> 02:36:20,200
Speaker 9: sell goods and services to. The administration moved this to

2654
02:36:20,280 --> 02:36:23,119
Speaker 9: include any company that is fifty percent or more owned

2655
02:36:23,160 --> 02:36:26,080
Speaker 9: by a company on the export list. We've discussed on

2656
02:36:26,120 --> 02:36:28,120
Speaker 9: the show before that a significant part of the structure

2657
02:36:28,200 --> 02:36:31,480
Speaker 9: of Chinese corporate conglomerates are held together by a bunch

2658
02:36:31,520 --> 02:36:34,000
Speaker 9: of different companies, you know, having partial ownership by the

2659
02:36:34,000 --> 02:36:36,720
Speaker 9: same holding companies, which is what sort of binds companies

2660
02:36:36,720 --> 02:36:39,520
Speaker 9: and conglomerates together and integrates them into the management structure

2661
02:36:39,520 --> 02:36:43,000
Speaker 9: of the conglomerates. This is how Chinese state owned enterprises work.

2662
02:36:43,240 --> 02:36:46,279
Speaker 9: Being state owned enterprise literally means that you are partly

2663
02:36:46,400 --> 02:36:49,160
Speaker 9: or completely owned by a holding company run by SASSAK,

2664
02:36:49,200 --> 02:36:52,960
Speaker 9: which is the State Owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission

2665
02:36:52,959 --> 02:36:55,039
Speaker 9: of the State Council. Because every name of the CCP

2666
02:36:55,200 --> 02:36:58,320
Speaker 9: is like that. So this shifts to anything that's fifty

2667
02:36:58,320 --> 02:37:00,560
Speaker 9: percent or more owned by a company on the list

2668
02:37:00,600 --> 02:37:04,920
Speaker 9: is actually a massive export restriction, and the Chinese government

2669
02:37:04,959 --> 02:37:08,240
Speaker 9: took this as okay, we're starting the trade war again,

2670
02:37:08,600 --> 02:37:11,080
Speaker 9: so very quickly there's a whole bunch of different tat

2671
02:37:11,160 --> 02:37:13,080
Speaker 9: things that we're not going to track the order of

2672
02:37:13,160 --> 02:37:16,360
Speaker 9: because they kind of don't matter. But on October tenth,

2673
02:37:16,440 --> 02:37:19,600
Speaker 9: Trump made a Twitter post where he said that he

2674
02:37:19,680 --> 02:37:21,520
Speaker 9: was going to implement a one hundred percent tariff and

2675
02:37:21,560 --> 02:37:24,320
Speaker 9: also a software restriction thing we'll talk about later. Those

2676
02:37:24,360 --> 02:37:26,800
Speaker 9: are supposed to go into effect on the first. He's

2677
02:37:26,840 --> 02:37:30,359
Speaker 9: also been talking in the last week about bringing tariffs

2678
02:37:30,400 --> 02:37:33,560
Speaker 9: up to one hundred and fifty percent. We don't have

2679
02:37:33,720 --> 02:37:36,959
Speaker 9: any kind of formal executive order on that. This was

2680
02:37:37,480 --> 02:37:41,560
Speaker 9: to some extent in response to China implementing massive restrictions

2681
02:37:41,600 --> 02:37:45,160
Speaker 9: on the export of rare earth metals. These are crucial

2682
02:37:45,240 --> 02:37:51,519
Speaker 9: to basically any kind of of advanced manufacturing industrial manufacturing applications,

2683
02:37:51,560 --> 02:37:54,640
Speaker 9: everything from chips, electric cars at jet fighters. These are

2684
02:37:54,680 --> 02:37:57,000
Speaker 9: set to take effect on December first. I'm going to

2685
02:37:57,040 --> 02:37:59,400
Speaker 9: read this from the New York Times to get an

2686
02:37:59,440 --> 02:38:03,480
Speaker 9: undersetting of how large these moves are. China refines ninety

2687
02:38:03,560 --> 02:38:06,760
Speaker 9: nine percent of the world's prosium, a kind of rare

2688
02:38:06,760 --> 02:38:09,000
Speaker 9: earth metal that is used in chips to preserve magnetic

2689
02:38:09,080 --> 02:38:12,240
Speaker 9: stability even when they become hot. In the last few years,

2690
02:38:12,640 --> 02:38:16,119
Speaker 9: Nvidia and other semi conductor manufacturers have changed the materials

2691
02:38:16,200 --> 02:38:19,920
Speaker 9: used in electricity management devices called capacitors, which is a

2692
02:38:19,920 --> 02:38:21,840
Speaker 9: really funny way to describe a capacitor, by the way,

2693
02:38:21,879 --> 02:38:25,680
Speaker 9: but on chips to make them more heat resistant. The

2694
02:38:25,720 --> 02:38:29,480
Speaker 9: capacitors are made from ultra pure dysprosium, which is extremely

2695
02:38:29,520 --> 02:38:33,480
Speaker 9: difficult to refine. A single refinery in Wushi, near Shanghai

2696
02:38:33,560 --> 02:38:37,720
Speaker 9: produces the entire world's supply, so prove New York Times.

2697
02:38:37,760 --> 02:38:42,000
Speaker 9: These export restrictions include any good that is produced with

2698
02:38:42,120 --> 02:38:45,760
Speaker 9: these rare earth metals, and require foreign companies operating in China,

2699
02:38:45,840 --> 02:38:48,760
Speaker 9: like for example, Samsung or any of the sort of

2700
02:38:48,840 --> 02:38:52,480
Speaker 9: South Korean or Taiwanese chip manufacturers to acquire export licenses

2701
02:38:53,080 --> 02:38:56,880
Speaker 9: to sell them to any other country that's not China.

2702
02:38:58,120 --> 02:39:04,520
Speaker 9: That is a absolutely massive restriction on export goods and

2703
02:39:04,680 --> 02:39:08,840
Speaker 9: also again a whole bunch of critical minerals that both

2704
02:39:09,160 --> 02:39:12,879
Speaker 9: the American military apparatus relies on and the American tech

2705
02:39:12,920 --> 02:39:16,760
Speaker 9: apparatus relies on. AI chips need a whole bunch of

2706
02:39:16,800 --> 02:39:20,640
Speaker 9: these things, so you know, in the middle of this process,

2707
02:39:20,680 --> 02:39:24,720
Speaker 9: the US also started charging Chinese built ships for docking

2708
02:39:24,800 --> 02:39:28,600
Speaker 9: at US ports, which China retaliated by imposing docking fees

2709
02:39:28,959 --> 02:39:31,280
Speaker 9: for American ships. I'm gonna gain read from New York

2710
02:39:31,280 --> 02:39:34,240
Speaker 9: Times here. The new rules are the most stringent for

2711
02:39:34,360 --> 02:39:37,240
Speaker 9: Chinese shipping companies, which for the most part, cannot avoid

2712
02:39:37,240 --> 02:39:41,480
Speaker 9: the levies. HSBC, an investment bank, estimated that Costco not

2713
02:39:41,560 --> 02:39:45,800
Speaker 9: that Costco different one, a large Chinese shipping line could

2714
02:39:45,800 --> 02:39:48,160
Speaker 9: pay one point five billion dollars in fees next year,

2715
02:39:48,360 --> 02:39:51,120
Speaker 9: which the bank said could reduce Costco's operating earnings by

2716
02:39:51,160 --> 02:39:55,360
Speaker 9: nearly three fourths in twenty twenty six. Again, it's it's

2717
02:39:55,400 --> 02:39:58,439
Speaker 9: worth it's worth noting that these shipping, these shipping companies

2718
02:39:58,480 --> 02:40:02,200
Speaker 9: are the backbone of blow trade. They also their margins

2719
02:40:02,240 --> 02:40:04,400
Speaker 9: are not very good and a significant number of them

2720
02:40:04,440 --> 02:40:08,440
Speaker 9: basically only didn't go under dream lock during the lockdowns

2721
02:40:08,560 --> 02:40:15,560
Speaker 9: because they effectively lied on their loan applications. And we're

2722
02:40:15,600 --> 02:40:18,120
Speaker 9: just sort of putting in their revenue as if the

2723
02:40:18,160 --> 02:40:21,560
Speaker 9: lockdowns weren't happening. So this is all very very fragile

2724
02:40:21,560 --> 02:40:26,199
Speaker 9: infrastructure that is being you know, attacked, and these these

2725
02:40:26,320 --> 02:40:27,600
Speaker 9: port fees are already in.

2726
02:40:27,600 --> 02:40:31,680
Speaker 12: Effect me doing gay cruising on my European trip. Yeah,

2727
02:40:31,720 --> 02:40:33,520
Speaker 12: I like global trade, all right.

2728
02:40:33,600 --> 02:40:38,720
Speaker 9: I continue, Oh god, Okay, So we also got to

2729
02:40:38,760 --> 02:40:42,080
Speaker 9: report today this is this is Wednesday, the twenty seconds

2730
02:40:42,120 --> 02:40:44,600
Speaker 9: this is being reported, So who fucking knows what will

2731
02:40:44,640 --> 02:40:46,760
Speaker 9: be happening by the time this episode comes out. But

2732
02:40:46,840 --> 02:40:49,879
Speaker 9: on Wednesday we got to report from Reuters about the

2733
02:40:50,160 --> 02:40:52,640
Speaker 9: other one of the other options that Shrum administration is

2734
02:40:52,680 --> 02:40:57,360
Speaker 9: considering for these massive sort of trade attacks on China.

2735
02:40:58,160 --> 02:41:00,760
Speaker 9: So I said, I said earlier when I talked about

2736
02:41:00,760 --> 02:41:04,920
Speaker 9: the one hundred percent tariff, Trump also mentioned a software

2737
02:41:05,000 --> 02:41:11,039
Speaker 9: export ban. So perb Reuters, what's being considered here, and

2738
02:41:11,080 --> 02:41:14,359
Speaker 9: again we have note we have very few concrete details

2739
02:41:14,400 --> 02:41:18,320
Speaker 9: about this. This hasn't been formally announced. My guests is

2740
02:41:18,320 --> 02:41:20,640
Speaker 9: that it's being leaked to Reuters by the administration, but

2741
02:41:20,680 --> 02:41:24,360
Speaker 9: I just don't know. But what they're considering, basically is

2742
02:41:25,120 --> 02:41:28,960
Speaker 9: a version of the sanctions that effectively Biden applied to

2743
02:41:29,040 --> 02:41:32,560
Speaker 9: Russia after the invasion of Ukraine, which restricts the export

2744
02:41:32,600 --> 02:41:36,160
Speaker 9: of any product maade with US software. This would be

2745
02:41:36,640 --> 02:41:40,160
Speaker 9: probably the most significant developments of the entire trade war.

2746
02:41:41,080 --> 02:41:44,520
Speaker 9: And so these are all incredibly significant escalations. A bunch

2747
02:41:44,520 --> 02:41:46,880
Speaker 9: of the stuff is set to go into effect on

2748
02:41:46,920 --> 02:41:51,840
Speaker 9: November first, which is very very soon now. In theory,

2749
02:41:51,959 --> 02:41:55,240
Speaker 9: Trump and Chijianping are supposed to meet at the meeting

2750
02:41:55,400 --> 02:41:58,840
Speaker 9: of the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation Forum in South Korea,

2751
02:41:58,920 --> 02:42:01,800
Speaker 9: but there's been no formalnouncements of their meeting. Trump that

2752
02:42:01,840 --> 02:42:05,440
Speaker 9: he was going to go to China and early next year,

2753
02:42:05,600 --> 02:42:08,560
Speaker 9: but that's again next year. The American one hundred percent

2754
02:42:08,560 --> 02:42:12,440
Speaker 9: tariff again November first. The Chinese export restrictions on rare

2755
02:42:12,400 --> 02:42:13,920
Speaker 9: earth metals again December first.

2756
02:42:14,200 --> 02:42:15,080
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2757
02:42:15,480 --> 02:42:19,160
Speaker 9: The other issue here is that the actual event starts

2758
02:42:19,200 --> 02:42:21,680
Speaker 9: on October thirty first, and the first terrorists going to

2759
02:42:21,720 --> 02:42:22,960
Speaker 9: affect the next day.

2760
02:42:23,440 --> 02:42:25,080
Speaker 12: Very spooky, very spooky, indeed.

2761
02:42:26,040 --> 02:42:29,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, And so Trump is mad also about China refusing

2762
02:42:29,920 --> 02:42:34,000
Speaker 9: to buy American soybeans, the story we've been covering. Yeah,

2763
02:42:34,040 --> 02:42:37,360
Speaker 9: and you know, he's complaining about the rare earth metal stuff,

2764
02:42:37,360 --> 02:42:40,960
Speaker 9: and he's complaining about he's still yelling about fence and all.

2765
02:42:41,480 --> 02:42:43,880
Speaker 9: But it's also worth mentioning one of the fascinating things

2766
02:42:43,959 --> 02:42:47,640
Speaker 9: is Trump is continuing to piss off even more parts

2767
02:42:47,680 --> 02:42:50,520
Speaker 9: of his base with this stuff. So soybean farmers, which

2768
02:42:50,560 --> 02:42:54,040
Speaker 9: is again a huge portion of American farmers, are really

2769
02:42:54,040 --> 02:42:57,320
Speaker 9: mad at him. He's also pissing off cattle ranchers. So

2770
02:42:57,480 --> 02:42:59,680
Speaker 9: both the soybean farmers and the cattle ranchers are mad

2771
02:42:59,680 --> 02:43:01,840
Speaker 9: at for giving a bunch of money to Argentina and

2772
02:43:01,879 --> 02:43:03,600
Speaker 9: not giving them a bunch of money and cutting off

2773
02:43:03,600 --> 02:43:06,280
Speaker 9: their acts to Chinese markets because Argentina again is selling

2774
02:43:06,320 --> 02:43:08,240
Speaker 9: a whole bunch of stuff to China. One of the

2775
02:43:08,240 --> 02:43:10,720
Speaker 9: things that they sell to China is beef because Argentina

2776
02:43:10,760 --> 02:43:13,640
Speaker 9: is a major beef exporter, So they're all really mad

2777
02:43:13,680 --> 02:43:17,600
Speaker 9: at him for giving Argentina a giant bailout in order

2778
02:43:17,680 --> 02:43:19,920
Speaker 9: to try to save if they're failing economy under their

2779
02:43:20,600 --> 02:43:25,240
Speaker 9: unhinged an arco capitalist and president who has annihilated the

2780
02:43:25,280 --> 02:43:29,080
Speaker 9: economy even more than it was before. And then Trump's

2781
02:43:29,080 --> 02:43:31,320
Speaker 9: response to the cattle ranchers being mad at him was

2782
02:43:31,360 --> 02:43:33,920
Speaker 9: telling them to lower their prices, which means they're even

2783
02:43:33,920 --> 02:43:37,920
Speaker 9: more mad at him. So he is systematically alienating two

2784
02:43:38,160 --> 02:43:40,640
Speaker 9: of what should be his most important basis of support.

2785
02:43:40,680 --> 02:43:43,400
Speaker 9: And like the cattle industry has been a based Republican

2786
02:43:43,400 --> 02:43:47,240
Speaker 9: support for I mean since time in memorial. Effectively, the

2787
02:43:47,320 --> 02:43:50,600
Speaker 9: lumber and vanity tariffs so we mentioned last week have

2788
02:43:50,800 --> 02:43:55,320
Speaker 9: taken effect. Now there's been no rollback of them. And finally,

2789
02:43:55,360 --> 02:43:57,600
Speaker 9: I want to close on a story that we're going

2790
02:43:57,600 --> 02:44:01,920
Speaker 9: to be covering more on Monday, which is the continuing

2791
02:44:02,040 --> 02:44:05,920
Speaker 9: escalation of a sort of conflict between Colombia and the

2792
02:44:06,120 --> 02:44:11,720
Speaker 9: US after the US murdered about full of what appeared

2793
02:44:11,720 --> 02:44:15,480
Speaker 9: to be Columbian fishermen. Yes, Columbia has recalled its ambassador

2794
02:44:15,480 --> 02:44:18,680
Speaker 9: and in the US has said that it is going

2795
02:44:18,720 --> 02:44:22,480
Speaker 9: to eliminate all foreign aid and impose a tariff, the

2796
02:44:22,560 --> 02:44:25,800
Speaker 9: size of which they haven't given a consistent number. Four

2797
02:44:27,040 --> 02:44:30,400
Speaker 9: And this is, you know, very much could look like

2798
02:44:30,600 --> 02:44:35,000
Speaker 9: a pretty massive reorientation of American policy around Columbia, which

2799
02:44:35,000 --> 02:44:37,080
Speaker 9: has traditionally been an American ally and we've ran desk

2800
02:44:37,080 --> 02:44:41,520
Speaker 9: squads out of there for a very very long time. Yeah,

2801
02:44:41,560 --> 02:44:44,720
Speaker 9: and that has been the lightning round rapid fire trade

2802
02:44:44,720 --> 02:44:52,400
Speaker 9: war coverage because oh boy, yeah, yay, we've tariff talked

2803
02:44:52,760 --> 02:44:53,200
Speaker 9: all right.

2804
02:44:53,879 --> 02:44:56,360
Speaker 12: Before we close, I don't want to talk a little

2805
02:44:56,400 --> 02:44:59,640
Speaker 12: bit about one of the news stories this week about

2806
02:44:59,680 --> 02:45:03,400
Speaker 12: a US political figures being like Nazism. No, not the

2807
02:45:04,840 --> 02:45:09,520
Speaker 12: main candidate, and no, not that other Republican staffer who

2808
02:45:09,560 --> 02:45:13,680
Speaker 12: had a swastika in his cubicle. The political story that

2809
02:45:15,080 --> 02:45:20,400
Speaker 12: leaked messages from the New York Young Republican telegram chat,

2810
02:45:20,520 --> 02:45:23,400
Speaker 12: which already tells you that it's going to be problematic

2811
02:45:23,480 --> 02:45:25,800
Speaker 12: the fact that they have a telegram chat. But The

2812
02:45:25,879 --> 02:45:29,240
Speaker 12: Political reported that this chat contained messages about putting political

2813
02:45:29,240 --> 02:45:33,000
Speaker 12: opponents in gas chambers, loving Hitler, as well as plenty

2814
02:45:33,040 --> 02:45:36,959
Speaker 12: of anti semitism, talking about raping their enemies, and hundreds

2815
02:45:37,000 --> 02:45:40,320
Speaker 12: of uses of homophobic and racistlers. The chair of the

2816
02:45:40,320 --> 02:45:44,560
Speaker 12: New York State Young Republicans, Bobby Walker, allegedly called rape

2817
02:45:44,600 --> 02:45:47,600
Speaker 12: epic and wrote in the chat quote if we ever

2818
02:45:47,720 --> 02:45:50,680
Speaker 12: had a leak of this chat, we would be cooked

2819
02:45:51,080 --> 02:45:57,600
Speaker 12: on quote New York Republican Elease Stephanic first denounced this

2820
02:45:57,800 --> 02:46:02,320
Speaker 12: chat after the report, though later called the Politico piece

2821
02:46:02,400 --> 02:46:06,039
Speaker 12: a quote unquote hit job. The Matt Walsh side of

2822
02:46:06,120 --> 02:46:11,680
Speaker 12: the online right condemned those who leaked the chats, neglecting

2823
02:46:11,920 --> 02:46:15,840
Speaker 12: to discuss the substance of the chat itself, while Vance

2824
02:46:16,040 --> 02:46:19,640
Speaker 12: largely dismissed the affair, writing on x the Everything app

2825
02:46:19,720 --> 02:46:23,360
Speaker 12: quote I refused to join the pearl clutching when powerful

2826
02:46:23,400 --> 02:46:27,320
Speaker 12: people call for political violence unquote. Vance falsely referred to

2827
02:46:27,360 --> 02:46:30,800
Speaker 12: this as a college group chat when TEA members were

2828
02:46:30,840 --> 02:46:34,600
Speaker 12: as old as forty years old. A day later, while

2829
02:46:34,640 --> 02:46:38,360
Speaker 12: guesting on The Charlie Kirk Show, Jade Vance continued to

2830
02:46:38,400 --> 02:46:41,720
Speaker 12: push back on the seriousness of this story and play

2831
02:46:41,800 --> 02:46:44,400
Speaker 12: defense by repeatedly referring to the grown men involved, who

2832
02:46:44,400 --> 02:46:48,360
Speaker 12: are in their twenties and forties as kids and young boys.

2833
02:46:49,040 --> 02:46:51,400
Speaker 13: Somehow they got their hands on something like twenty eight

2834
02:46:51,440 --> 02:46:55,760
Speaker 13: thousand messages in someat group chat of I think twelve

2835
02:46:55,760 --> 02:46:57,320
Speaker 13: people that nobody's.

2836
02:46:56,920 --> 02:46:57,400
Speaker 2: Ever heard of.

2837
02:46:57,440 --> 02:46:59,800
Speaker 13: But they decided to just publish every single thing in

2838
02:46:59,840 --> 02:47:01,720
Speaker 13: the chat, whatever they found that they thought was the

2839
02:47:01,760 --> 02:47:06,280
Speaker 13: most salacious, and I think ten years ago there would

2840
02:47:06,280 --> 02:47:08,760
Speaker 13: have been a very different response to it. But people

2841
02:47:08,840 --> 02:47:11,720
Speaker 13: are starting to learn from this, and the vice president

2842
02:47:11,760 --> 02:47:13,600
Speaker 13: is one of the reasons why I'm sorry.

2843
02:47:13,640 --> 02:47:16,320
Speaker 14: Focus on the real issues, don't focus on what kids

2844
02:47:16,360 --> 02:47:18,640
Speaker 14: say in group chats. But there's another angle to this

2845
02:47:18,720 --> 02:47:20,800
Speaker 14: that I just have to be honest about. I mean,

2846
02:47:20,800 --> 02:47:22,200
Speaker 14: I'm like an old guy at this one. I'm forty

2847
02:47:22,240 --> 02:47:25,840
Speaker 14: one years old, I have three kids. You know, I

2848
02:47:25,879 --> 02:47:28,480
Speaker 14: grew up in a different world, right where not most

2849
02:47:28,480 --> 02:47:30,320
Speaker 14: of what the stupid things that I did when I

2850
02:47:30,360 --> 02:47:33,000
Speaker 14: was a teenager and a young adult, they're not on

2851
02:47:33,040 --> 02:47:35,880
Speaker 14: the Internet, Like I'm going to tell my kids, especially

2852
02:47:35,920 --> 02:47:39,040
Speaker 14: my boys, don't put things on the internet.

2853
02:47:38,640 --> 02:47:40,400
Speaker 2: Like, be careful with what you post.

2854
02:47:40,720 --> 02:47:42,920
Speaker 14: If you put something in a group chat, assume that

2855
02:47:42,959 --> 02:47:44,960
Speaker 14: some scumbag is going to leak it in an effort

2856
02:47:45,000 --> 02:47:47,279
Speaker 14: to try to cause you harm or cause your family harm.

2857
02:47:47,640 --> 02:47:51,720
Speaker 14: But the reality is that kids do stupid things, especially

2858
02:47:51,760 --> 02:47:55,480
Speaker 14: young boys. They tell edgy, offensive jokes, like that's what

2859
02:47:55,640 --> 02:47:58,160
Speaker 14: kids do. And I really don't want us to grow

2860
02:47:58,200 --> 02:48:01,160
Speaker 14: up in a country where a kid selling a stupid joke,

2861
02:48:01,320 --> 02:48:05,080
Speaker 14: telling a very offensive, stupid joke is caused to ruin

2862
02:48:05,160 --> 02:48:07,440
Speaker 14: their lives. And at some point we're all going to

2863
02:48:07,520 --> 02:48:10,680
Speaker 14: have to say enough of this, bs. We're not going

2864
02:48:10,680 --> 02:48:14,040
Speaker 14: to allow the worst moment and a twenty one year

2865
02:48:14,080 --> 02:48:16,680
Speaker 14: old's group chat to ruin a kid's life for the

2866
02:48:16,720 --> 02:48:19,520
Speaker 14: rest of time. That's just not okay. Like we live

2867
02:48:19,520 --> 02:48:23,000
Speaker 14: in a digital world. This stuff is now extin stone online.

2868
02:48:23,160 --> 02:48:25,400
Speaker 14: We're all going to have to say, you know what, no, no, no,

2869
02:48:25,600 --> 02:48:28,560
Speaker 14: we're not doing this. We're not canceling kids because they

2870
02:48:28,640 --> 02:48:31,440
Speaker 14: do something stupid in a group chat. And if I

2871
02:48:31,480 --> 02:48:33,440
Speaker 14: have to be the person who carries that message forward,

2872
02:48:33,480 --> 02:48:34,160
Speaker 14: I'm fine.

2873
02:48:33,959 --> 02:48:36,560
Speaker 12: With it, right once again, most of these guys are

2874
02:48:36,720 --> 02:48:40,240
Speaker 12: like in their thirties. These guys are our adults. You know,

2875
02:48:40,320 --> 02:48:42,560
Speaker 12: the New York Young Republicans is not a whole bunch

2876
02:48:42,600 --> 02:48:47,199
Speaker 12: of kids. These are young like political in political years,

2877
02:48:47,600 --> 02:48:52,160
Speaker 12: because everyone who runs the country is quasi geriatric. Self

2878
02:48:52,160 --> 02:48:56,199
Speaker 12: proclaimed theocratic fascist Matt Walsh said, quote, the right doesn't

2879
02:48:56,240 --> 02:48:58,359
Speaker 12: stick together. That's our biggest problem.

2880
02:48:58,480 --> 02:48:58,959
Speaker 4: By far.

2881
02:48:59,320 --> 02:49:02,520
Speaker 12: Conservatives are quick to denounce each other, jump on dog piles,

2882
02:49:02,560 --> 02:49:05,520
Speaker 12: disavow attack their allies. I said a few weeks ago

2883
02:49:05,600 --> 02:49:08,280
Speaker 12: that we all need to band together in the wake

2884
02:49:08,360 --> 02:49:10,840
Speaker 12: of Charlie's death, and the answer I got back from

2885
02:49:10,879 --> 02:49:14,560
Speaker 12: a lot of people on the right was basically no, well, okay,

2886
02:49:14,600 --> 02:49:18,240
Speaker 12: then guys, we'll just lose. Instead, the left will keep

2887
02:49:18,520 --> 02:49:23,120
Speaker 12: up the United Front and defend their guys no matter what. Well,

2888
02:49:23,160 --> 02:49:26,680
Speaker 12: we keep throwing each other to the wolves at every opportunity.

2889
02:49:26,840 --> 02:49:33,000
Speaker 12: Great plan. Unquote. Shapiro did beef a bit with Walsh

2890
02:49:33,040 --> 02:49:37,560
Speaker 12: on one of their daily Wire group podcasts regarding the

2891
02:49:37,560 --> 02:49:41,240
Speaker 12: substance of these chats. Shapiro did seem more concerned at

2892
02:49:41,240 --> 02:49:45,280
Speaker 12: the growing anti Semitic and not see fascistic element of

2893
02:49:45,320 --> 02:49:49,680
Speaker 12: the Republican Party whereas Walsh is does not care about

2894
02:49:49,720 --> 02:49:52,800
Speaker 12: that at all. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, not a problem

2895
02:49:52,800 --> 02:49:56,959
Speaker 12: for a self proclaimed theocratic fascist Matt Walsh. So that's

2896
02:49:57,040 --> 02:49:59,480
Speaker 12: that's one side of this whole political story that I

2897
02:49:59,480 --> 02:50:02,040
Speaker 12: wanted to talk about. You should just read the political piece.

2898
02:50:02,120 --> 02:50:04,200
Speaker 12: I'm sure lots of people have. It got pretty popular

2899
02:50:04,200 --> 02:50:06,879
Speaker 12: a few days ago. But I find the sort of

2900
02:50:07,720 --> 02:50:09,320
Speaker 12: I mean, I would have called it like the dissident

2901
02:50:09,400 --> 02:50:12,199
Speaker 12: right reaction, but when you have the vice president as like, yep,

2902
02:50:12,480 --> 02:50:14,680
Speaker 12: the guy leading the charge on this type of stuff,

2903
02:50:14,720 --> 02:50:17,640
Speaker 12: it's not really distanct Like there is a large number

2904
02:50:17,640 --> 02:50:21,640
Speaker 12: of Republicans who are condemning the contents of this chat,

2905
02:50:22,160 --> 02:50:24,199
Speaker 12: but you do have the vice president of the country

2906
02:50:24,840 --> 02:50:27,400
Speaker 12: playing defense for it, yeah, and for the people involved.

2907
02:50:27,480 --> 02:50:29,280
Speaker 9: And I think this is actually a very important thing

2908
02:50:29,320 --> 02:50:32,440
Speaker 9: about what the structure of the Republican Party is right now,

2909
02:50:32,440 --> 02:50:35,600
Speaker 9: which is these kind of low levels like staffers, right,

2910
02:50:35,920 --> 02:50:37,640
Speaker 9: the young Republican people, and these are a bunch of

2911
02:50:37,680 --> 02:50:39,640
Speaker 9: people who are also making White House policy. You know,

2912
02:50:39,680 --> 02:50:43,120
Speaker 9: Stephen Miller is you know, the guy who's doing a

2913
02:50:43,120 --> 02:50:45,520
Speaker 9: whole bunch of a whole bunch of the sort of

2914
02:50:45,560 --> 02:50:50,360
Speaker 9: ethnic cleansing deportation policy right now are just Nazis. They're

2915
02:50:50,560 --> 02:50:52,880
Speaker 9: just Nazis. And every time one of these group chats

2916
02:50:52,879 --> 02:50:55,680
Speaker 9: comes out, it looks like this. And that's a really

2917
02:50:55,720 --> 02:50:59,000
Speaker 9: significant factor in why American politics looks like this, which

2918
02:50:59,000 --> 02:51:01,440
Speaker 9: is that like the the people who are entering the

2919
02:51:01,480 --> 02:51:04,520
Speaker 9: Republican Party right now, who are like their sort of

2920
02:51:04,680 --> 02:51:08,560
Speaker 9: youth wing quote unquote, are these people and we're seeing

2921
02:51:08,760 --> 02:51:10,280
Speaker 9: their policies get enacted.

2922
02:51:10,560 --> 02:51:11,520
Speaker 3: It fucking sucks.

2923
02:51:12,240 --> 02:51:14,600
Speaker 12: I mean it's often baked in this like post ironic,

2924
02:51:14,920 --> 02:51:18,560
Speaker 12: like like joking way, where you know, obviously the Nazi

2925
02:51:19,680 --> 02:51:22,119
Speaker 12: some people in these circles say, obviously the Nazis themselves

2926
02:51:22,120 --> 02:51:26,439
Speaker 12: are bad, but we're using this as like a memetic signifier. Yeah,

2927
02:51:26,480 --> 02:51:28,760
Speaker 12: for like nationalism and for all of these things. Now

2928
02:51:28,760 --> 02:51:30,360
Speaker 12: there is a fair number of people who just will

2929
02:51:30,360 --> 02:51:33,680
Speaker 12: straight up defend the Nazis absolutely, but I think it's

2930
02:51:33,680 --> 02:51:38,040
Speaker 12: it's it goes beyond, like like this isn't German national socialism,

2931
02:51:38,120 --> 02:51:40,959
Speaker 12: Like it goes, it goes, it goes beyond to like

2932
02:51:41,240 --> 02:51:45,279
Speaker 12: they're using Nazism as a meme for their political project,

2933
02:51:45,640 --> 02:51:48,320
Speaker 12: and memes get used a lot in these types of

2934
02:51:48,440 --> 02:51:51,000
Speaker 12: safe spaces where people can joke around. So you see

2935
02:51:51,000 --> 02:51:53,920
Speaker 12: that very clearly here, but you also see it on

2936
02:51:54,000 --> 02:51:57,080
Speaker 12: like the DHS Twitter account you use, you see the

2937
02:51:57,120 --> 02:51:59,080
Speaker 12: same kind of like post ironic stuff, like a few

2938
02:51:59,120 --> 02:52:02,520
Speaker 12: weeks ago they we're fucking moon Man posting. You can

2939
02:52:02,600 --> 02:52:04,560
Speaker 12: google that one if you want to. We don't have

2940
02:52:04,600 --> 02:52:08,920
Speaker 12: time to explain, but that's a very old like internet

2941
02:52:09,000 --> 02:52:12,320
Speaker 12: nazi dog whistle. Yeah, and you know we've I've talked

2942
02:52:12,360 --> 02:52:15,800
Speaker 12: a decent bit about my feelings on like focusing a

2943
02:52:15,840 --> 02:52:19,400
Speaker 12: lot on like the DHS Twitter dog whistles. But yeah,

2944
02:52:19,440 --> 02:52:22,360
Speaker 12: it is it is in invoking of this stuff for

2945
02:52:22,400 --> 02:52:26,160
Speaker 12: this like mimetic like archetypal context that they surround themselves in.

2946
02:52:26,640 --> 02:52:29,199
Speaker 9: Yeah, and then you know, doing the actual thing, which

2947
02:52:29,240 --> 02:52:31,560
Speaker 9: is going out and rounding up a whole bunch of

2948
02:52:31,840 --> 02:52:35,039
Speaker 9: doing these Ice rights now white people and yeah, like.

2949
02:52:35,080 --> 02:52:38,520
Speaker 12: The ICE recruiting ads are like the clearest example of

2950
02:52:38,680 --> 02:52:42,039
Speaker 12: using this type of memetic imagery for their actual political

2951
02:52:42,040 --> 02:52:44,840
Speaker 12: project and then to act the thing physically. And it's

2952
02:52:44,920 --> 02:52:48,080
Speaker 12: it's very clear there because there's very little disconnect. It's

2953
02:52:48,160 --> 02:52:49,480
Speaker 12: an immediate transference.

2954
02:52:49,920 --> 02:52:51,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a very straight line.

2955
02:52:51,800 --> 02:52:54,959
Speaker 12: Yeah, James want to close us up on the Great

2956
02:52:54,959 --> 02:52:55,760
Speaker 12: State of Alaska.

2957
02:52:56,560 --> 02:52:59,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm talking about something and it's a great in Alaska.

2958
02:53:00,280 --> 02:53:01,760
Speaker 4: But we normally do your fundraiser at the end, so

2959
02:53:01,800 --> 02:53:03,320
Speaker 4: I wanted to put this here for those of you

2960
02:53:03,320 --> 02:53:06,920
Speaker 4: who are not aware, because this has really got enough coverage,

2961
02:53:06,959 --> 02:53:10,359
Speaker 4: in my opinion, A massive storm, in fact, the remnants

2962
02:53:10,400 --> 02:53:13,240
Speaker 4: of a typhoon slammed into the west coast of Alaska,

2963
02:53:13,320 --> 02:53:16,800
Speaker 4: leaving more than a thousand people without shelter along the

2964
02:53:16,920 --> 02:53:21,560
Speaker 4: Yukon Coskoquim River. These are Alaska Native villages, and their

2965
02:53:21,600 --> 02:53:25,080
Speaker 4: inhabitants are now climate refugees at the very start of winter,

2966
02:53:25,360 --> 02:53:29,480
Speaker 4: right in the coldest place in the United States. These

2967
02:53:29,800 --> 02:53:33,240
Speaker 4: villages are very remote. I spend some time earlier this

2968
02:53:33,360 --> 02:53:36,240
Speaker 4: year in Alaska Native village, not here in the interior,

2969
02:53:36,480 --> 02:53:41,480
Speaker 4: just in the Quichan territories. But these guys are really

2970
02:53:41,480 --> 02:53:46,120
Speaker 4: only accessible by small planes or by boats, which will

2971
02:53:46,160 --> 02:53:48,800
Speaker 4: make their recovery even harder.

2972
02:53:49,080 --> 02:53:49,200
Speaker 1: Right.

2973
02:53:49,560 --> 02:53:51,840
Speaker 4: They're people who have lived by the ocean or by

2974
02:53:51,840 --> 02:53:54,240
Speaker 4: the river for as long as people have lived in

2975
02:53:54,280 --> 02:53:57,320
Speaker 4: the Americas, tens of thousands of years.

2976
02:53:57,400 --> 02:53:57,600
Speaker 1: Right.

2977
02:53:58,280 --> 02:54:01,760
Speaker 4: A few months ago, the Trump canceled the twenty million

2978
02:54:01,879 --> 02:54:06,000
Speaker 4: dollar ground for flood protection, which would have covered Kipnook.

2979
02:54:06,040 --> 02:54:09,320
Speaker 4: One of these villages, Kipnook now and functioning doesn't exist.

2980
02:54:09,440 --> 02:54:11,320
Speaker 4: Houses were torn off their foundations.

2981
02:54:11,400 --> 02:54:11,560
Speaker 12: Right.

2982
02:54:11,680 --> 02:54:16,520
Speaker 4: There are multiple videos of people's whole houses floating away.

2983
02:54:17,000 --> 02:54:19,959
Speaker 4: It's not just an instance of neglect or even a

2984
02:54:20,000 --> 02:54:23,480
Speaker 4: single failure here, It's an example of decades of ignoring

2985
02:54:23,480 --> 02:54:26,720
Speaker 4: the voices of Indigenous people, especially Alaska Natives, when they

2986
02:54:26,720 --> 02:54:28,879
Speaker 4: tell us that the climate crisis is real and that

2987
02:54:28,920 --> 02:54:34,800
Speaker 4: it's already here. Right. When the media looks at climate change,

2988
02:54:35,680 --> 02:54:37,480
Speaker 4: they tend to want to look at data they can

2989
02:54:37,520 --> 02:54:39,840
Speaker 4: measure in terms of numbers, right, according to the model

2990
02:54:39,879 --> 02:54:43,040
Speaker 4: of Western science. But I would argue that the experience

2991
02:54:43,080 --> 02:54:44,840
Speaker 4: of Indigenous people who have lived on the land for

2992
02:54:44,840 --> 02:54:47,840
Speaker 4: as long as human beings have lived anywhere on this

2993
02:54:47,920 --> 02:54:52,439
Speaker 4: continent and have watched the changes and seen this disaster unfold,

2994
02:54:52,879 --> 02:54:54,800
Speaker 4: should be a warning to all of us that the

2995
02:54:54,800 --> 02:54:58,440
Speaker 4: climate crisis is already here. I reached out to some

2996
02:54:58,480 --> 02:55:02,160
Speaker 4: Alaska Native friends to ask where to donate, and they

2997
02:55:02,320 --> 02:55:05,959
Speaker 4: shared a page which will be in the show notes

2998
02:55:05,959 --> 02:55:07,720
Speaker 4: of the show. So if you're able to help, I

2999
02:55:07,760 --> 02:55:09,840
Speaker 4: think that's very important thing to do. Recovery for these

3000
02:55:09,879 --> 02:55:14,240
Speaker 4: people with this federal government, with being as remote as

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Speaker 4: they are, will be horrifically difficult. Right now, many of

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Speaker 4: them are living in anchorage right Like I said, they're

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Speaker 4: going into the winter and then they don't have a

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Speaker 4: place to live. It's an unmitigated disaster. So if you're

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Speaker 4: able to help, I think it would be very much appreciated.

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Speaker 4: Before I go, I will say that if you would

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Speaker 4: like to email us, you can use our proton mail address,

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Speaker 4: cool Zone Tips at proton dot me. If you send

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Speaker 4: from a proton mail address and it's encrypted from one

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Speaker 4: end to the other end.

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Speaker 12: We reported the news.

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Speaker 2: We reported the news. Hey, We'll be back Monday with

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Speaker 2: more episodes every week from now until the heat death

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Speaker 2: of the Universe.

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Speaker 15: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 15: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

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Speaker 15: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 15: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

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Speaker 15: now find sources for It Could Happen here, listed directly

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Speaker 15: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.