Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of the Hunt Collective.
Speaker 1: I'm Ben O'Brien. Today I am joined by Spencer new
Speaker 1: Art and Mark Kenyon. Both of them work on the
Speaker 1: wire to Hunt brand and then both of them work
Speaker 1: here at the Old Meat Eater Incorporated. Um, we're gonna
Speaker 1: talk to you guys about a bunch of really interesting topics,
Speaker 1: mostly around white Tail. Um. I say that because mostly
Speaker 1: around white Tail. We had a few little diversions into
Speaker 1: some other things that you'll be very interested to hear about.
Speaker 1: But I think as far as white Tail conversations go,
Speaker 1: and the conversation about what's really going on in that world,
Speaker 1: I think we had some good topics. We had some
Speaker 1: real sketchy ones too. UM. So hopefully you've you learned
Speaker 1: a little bit. Hopefully, uh we either make you mad
Speaker 1: or make you real happy with some of our opinions
Speaker 1: on some of these uh tougher topics. So, without further ado,
Speaker 1: enjoy this episode with parkt Spencer White Tannon. You should
Speaker 1: know that millions thirty million, maybe it sounds Spenser six
Speaker 1: million or killed a year. I know that. Okay, all right,
Speaker 1: well that's something that question I asked, But it's that
Speaker 1: answer to a question which I want to know what
Speaker 1: it really is them now, because thirty million was just
Speaker 1: like a number that sounded right. Okay, what do you
Speaker 1: what's it? Let's give a ki we already have. That's
Speaker 1: like that's a solid based one spencer. What if six well,
Speaker 1: I think it's six million deer. I don't know if
Speaker 1: six million white tales are killed a year. Um, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go prices right on this and I'll say twenty million. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'll just say one deer. Yeah, I want to say
Speaker 1: twenty twenty million, one twenty million. No, I got six million, Mark,
Speaker 1: It's probably not it's going to be an estimated number.
Speaker 1: We know there's more white tailed deer in this like
Speaker 1: the Atlantic quotes that there are as many as thirty
Speaker 1: million of them roman the country at large. White tail
Speaker 1: or dear, this is speaking to white tail deer. Good.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you passed the test. You can keep podcasting
Speaker 1: about tales. Joined by Mark Kenyon, Wired to Hunt Spencer
Speaker 1: new art of the Meat Eater team. Here. Um, we're
Speaker 1: gonna talk about white tail stuff. What do you guys
Speaker 1: think about that? It is something that I do on occasion. Yeah,
Speaker 1: You've been known to speak of speak of white tails,
Speaker 1: and every time I do it, I enjoy it. So
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to this every time. So get ready, everybody.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be scintillating. Now. This is the time you
Speaker 1: where people who don't give a shit about white tails
Speaker 1: right now, other than you freaks, other than you freaks
Speaker 1: that are out there looking for sheds. There's a lot
Speaker 1: going on this time of year for white tail folks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: not just finding sheds, what else scouting, low scouting, going on,
Speaker 1: a lot of prepping. Now was a great time to
Speaker 1: get out there and be haying your stands now, get that,
Speaker 1: get that work done now so you're not doing it
Speaker 1: like you're stretching in a little bit. Yeah, planning out
Speaker 1: of state hunts when you get your ducks in a
Speaker 1: row for that. If you manage private land and have
Speaker 1: stuff you can do like that from the habitat site.
Speaker 1: And that was a great time to be doing things
Speaker 1: like timber management, hinge cutting. You're getting some so bored
Speaker 1: here for access as well. Yeah, knocking in doors you
Speaker 1: are into like content, you talk to a boring caving
Speaker 1: and uh you can get maybe some kyote access that
Speaker 1: maybe leads to something different. Maybe you meet an old
Speaker 1: man who likes to play checkers. You guys play checkers together,
Speaker 1: talking about you asked for this, Ben, you can get
Speaker 1: yourself into this mess. It's probably like the deadest time
Speaker 1: of year though for a white tailer. And I always
Speaker 1: finally got back to the truth, if you had to
Speaker 1: pick the valley in the white tail seasons the lowest
Speaker 1: EBB point of the year. Yes, So what we're trying
Speaker 1: to do with this podcast is bring it back up,
Speaker 1: gives people something. Did you hear about that podcast where
Speaker 1: they talk about white tails. That's what we're trying to do.
Speaker 1: That's our goal here. But recently, Mark, you've been out
Speaker 1: looking look for sheds and you found what seemed to
Speaker 1: me like a lot of small ones. I wouldn't even
Speaker 1: say a lot. I found a few sheds, of which
Speaker 1: they've all been small. It's been a rough because the snow.
Speaker 1: Partly has been because of the snow, partly simply because
Speaker 1: of like travel schedule has not allowed me to spend
Speaker 1: much time in places where there's the numbers and quality
Speaker 1: of deer to actually finds. A lot of shed hunting
Speaker 1: comes down to just the quality of the areas are in. Yeah,
Speaker 1: have you You haven't shed on it at all? Have
Speaker 1: you spencer this year? Uh? I was recently back in
Speaker 1: South Dakota, where I'm from and where I do most
Speaker 1: of my deer hunting, this last week, but they had
Speaker 1: like a foot of snow on the ground, so you
Speaker 1: would find nothing in that case. Nothing. Yeah, I've I've
Speaker 1: never really consistent. When I had a lease back in Maryland,
Speaker 1: I shed on a good bit and I got when
Speaker 1: I was fully into the white tail year right every
Speaker 1: season was doing something. But right, I haven't shed hunting
Speaker 1: in quite some time. You know a lot of people
Speaker 1: well that don't, that aren't into it, kind of dog
Speaker 1: it like, oh that seems like a stupid thing. You
Speaker 1: can't eat antlers? What are you going on their waste
Speaker 1: your time doing? And I think from my perspective, I
Speaker 1: really it's a love hate thing. Um But I mostly
Speaker 1: love it because I enjoy hiking. Like if you like
Speaker 1: to walk a lot, if you like to hike just
Speaker 1: for the sake of being outside and doing that, shed
Speaker 1: outing is a great way to do that because it's
Speaker 1: a way to get out there, stretcher legs, hike around,
Speaker 1: be outside and then there's also this little treasure hunt
Speaker 1: aspect to it, which adds a little bit of fun
Speaker 1: and um when you do stumble on one, when you
Speaker 1: do find one, that is a really exciting moment. I saw,
Speaker 1: I think the other day where guys were advertising guided
Speaker 1: shed hunts. That's pretty crazy. Describe that you think that
Speaker 1: might be, Like it's like an Easter egg hunt. Guarantee
Speaker 1: those dudes are putting them out there. They're like, oh,
Speaker 1: you're a little bit warmer, you're hot, you're boiling hot,
Speaker 1: you're on fire, You're on fire. There's no way that
Speaker 1: they're just taking them out for a walk. I wonder
Speaker 1: what the actual specifics of it are if it if
Speaker 1: it actually entail a guide or is it just access
Speaker 1: like you pay. Now this one was a guided, like
Speaker 1: you paid to go to a lodge and a feller
Speaker 1: would walk around with you like that. I'll just say,
Speaker 1: that's not my cup of tea. I could see. I
Speaker 1: think I could be. I think I could be a
Speaker 1: shed hunting guide if you wanted to learn about shed hunting,
Speaker 1: Like if you had found two sheds in your whole
Speaker 1: life and you're like, what am I doing wrong? I
Speaker 1: have to dial this in there could be an advantage
Speaker 1: to that, like going out with somebody who you know
Speaker 1: you're gonna find sheds with. But otherwise I can't imagine
Speaker 1: there's a lot of guys type in the Google shed
Speaker 1: hunting outfitter. But I do know some people who I
Speaker 1: do have friends who really love to shed hunt, who
Speaker 1: have said to me, man, it would be cool to
Speaker 1: for once in our lives, like get access to the
Speaker 1: kind of place where you could find fifty amlers in
Speaker 1: a day, Like you see people on social media having
Speaker 1: these days on these big managed properties, and like myself
Speaker 1: and all my friends, like, we don't have that kind
Speaker 1: of thing. So when we go, it's usually public land
Speaker 1: or something we knocked on the doors of. And if
Speaker 1: you're you're lucky even in the best place says to
Speaker 1: find ten antlers between a group of five or something
Speaker 1: like that. So once in your life to go somewhere
Speaker 1: that's just loaded with deer, just brown antlers everywhere. Like,
Speaker 1: I don't think i'd pay money to do that, but
Speaker 1: I certainly wouldn't mind, like getting invited to go along
Speaker 1: on something that and just and you would travel like
Speaker 1: three states away because you do that. Oh yeah, I've
Speaker 1: travel across the country forget. I hope non hunters are
Speaker 1: listening to this and they know how crazy we are,
Speaker 1: because I was thinking, yeah, I do that too. I
Speaker 1: would It's hard to describe why it's that much fun,
Speaker 1: but it's just could you like being outsidely? I said,
Speaker 1: there's just something really neat about being outside and then
Speaker 1: searching for something and occasionally finding it and then antlers
Speaker 1: to me, like holding an antler in your hand, It's
Speaker 1: just like a really cool artifact of a life, like
Speaker 1: seeing something that used to be part of a living
Speaker 1: animal and then is now something you can hold in
Speaker 1: your hand and touch and feel and spin around, and
Speaker 1: like there's fascinating objects on her own and to be
Speaker 1: able to find a bunch of those is just well,
Speaker 1: you develop these relationships with those animals, man, and you're
Speaker 1: you know, you're tracking them all year round. It's fun
Speaker 1: to find a little You're find literally a little piece
Speaker 1: of them, which brings me to what's your favorite kind
Speaker 1: of shed to find? Like a little little blood on
Speaker 1: the pedicle? Does that get your going? Like? Does that?
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say, like what gets you going? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: don't necessarily value like a fresh ee anymore than fresh, freshy,
Speaker 1: but it would be like fresh, its fresh. It would
Speaker 1: be nowhere they're like, oh, look at this one fresh
Speaker 1: just and I mean a fresh antler is nice. Like
Speaker 1: I definitely prefer something that's not been chewed on by
Speaker 1: animals and stuff, just simply because it's pretty. It feels
Speaker 1: good in your hand. It's just a cool thing. But
Speaker 1: like an old chalky shoot up one is just whatever.
Speaker 1: It's not quite as aesthetically pleased. Do you feel though
Speaker 1: it would be more exciting because you're like, well, nobody
Speaker 1: found this and I somehow stumbled upon it, the old
Speaker 1: shoot up one. Yeah, I guess that's one way to
Speaker 1: look at him. Yeah, you don't seem excited about that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: not too much. Even when I lived within like ten
Speaker 1: miles of where I primarily a white tail hunt, I
Speaker 1: just didn't get into shed hunting that much. But I would, um,
Speaker 1: like for the reason of Kevin fever, Like South Dakota
Speaker 1: winners are pretty awful and uh, by the time, like
Speaker 1: marsh rolls around and there's nothing else to do. Sick
Speaker 1: of ice fishing, uh, sick of being inside, Like shed
Speaker 1: hunting sounds pretty good at that point, so I can
Speaker 1: get into it. So you're saying that when you're at
Speaker 1: the your most desperate, Yes, you're you can barely think
Speaker 1: about anything else to do. You've read all the books
Speaker 1: you're out of. As far as we're like shed hunting
Speaker 1: ranks and what I like to do outside, it's it's
Speaker 1: pretty low. And I don't think I would ever drive
Speaker 1: what you went from Michigan to western North Dakota. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's got to be like a thousand miles. I wouldn't
Speaker 1: do that. I'd go that far to to kill a deer,
Speaker 1: but not look for a deer's antlers. Not to be fair,
Speaker 1: that was shed hunting and scouting, Okay, And I hit
Speaker 1: Montana Fair in North Kakota and I killed a deer there,
Speaker 1: so that scout and shed paid off. Yeah. My view
Speaker 1: on is always like, this is not going to help
Speaker 1: me kill a deer. If I'm out there and I
Speaker 1: find a specific antler or find no ansler's Um, that's
Speaker 1: my view. I don't think this is going to help
Speaker 1: me kill a deer. But I did talk to a
Speaker 1: body a few weeks ago that kind of changed my
Speaker 1: perspective on it. Um. He was looking for elk sheds
Speaker 1: in South Dakota. In a unit that it's tough to draw,
Speaker 1: all units of South Dakota tough to draw. Anyway, he
Speaker 1: found the piece of public and he got in there
Speaker 1: and he found three elk sheds at which are They
Speaker 1: were in obvious places and so to him that meant
Speaker 1: nobody else had been there, like in the last few years,
Speaker 1: because they were old sheds, and so that was really valuable.
Speaker 1: Like that's an obvious um sign that you were one
Speaker 1: of the few hunters in there at that time. So
Speaker 1: I could see the value to that point, like finding
Speaker 1: them on public land and these places that so you're saying,
Speaker 1: go and plant sheds and obvious places where you know
Speaker 1: they're no elk. So hunters like this guy I'm going
Speaker 1: back there really dispersed the other hunters. So that's some
Speaker 1: value I could see in it. But from the just
Speaker 1: finding an aniler and being excited about it, not so much. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm hoping to convinced Mark Kenyon of something. There was
Speaker 1: an article in Outside magazine and this article, uh, it's
Speaker 1: called in Memory of Yellowstone Wolf nine to six F.
Speaker 1: You possibly read that, Mark. I lanced that. I did
Speaker 1: not read it, but I know the basic gist, like
Speaker 1: the deck here is kind of like she was a
Speaker 1: survivor and an alpha, and then she was legally shot
Speaker 1: and killed by a hunter. Yellostone Park's legendary wolf researcher
Speaker 1: Rick McIntyre reflects on the life of one of the
Speaker 1: park's most famous canines. And this guy waxes about wolf
Speaker 1: to six in a way that I respect like his
Speaker 1: I don't. I would never make fun of his relationship
Speaker 1: with the animal. Yeah. Um, and he definitely uh personifies
Speaker 1: her in a lot of ways and talks about his
Speaker 1: how he cared for, how he tracked her since she
Speaker 1: was born, things of that nature. And my thought was
Speaker 1: not that, not that old and Rick had some unnatural relationship.
Speaker 1: I first thought of you, I thought, well, Mark Kenyon, Well,
Speaker 1: Mark Kenyon has names animals and follows them throughout their lives.
Speaker 1: He just happens to kill them at the end and
Speaker 1: eat them. Yeah. So I want to convince you to
Speaker 1: write an article where you, maybe, like for Frank, would
Speaker 1: write this eulogy like this fellow did for a wolf,
Speaker 1: but then at the end he would like and I
Speaker 1: shot it and I ate it. Convinced Outside to publish it.
Speaker 1: Next to that, and convince Outside to publish it. What
Speaker 1: are you willing to take that on? It would be
Speaker 1: a very interesting pairing, that's for sure. I don't know
Speaker 1: if that's because you would start it like I remember
Speaker 1: when Frank was born like an all series. No, not
Speaker 1: to that, but it is interesting to you bring it up,
Speaker 1: because like when I saw that article, I was like,
Speaker 1: oh jeez, like some serious anthropomorphization. Um. I didn't say
Speaker 1: that work as I always always stumble over the pronunciation
Speaker 1: of and so thank you for them, You're welcome. Um.
Speaker 1: That just goes too far. And you see this a
Speaker 1: lot with the wolf debate. UM, and I will publicly
Speaker 1: like I I am not like an anti wolfer like
Speaker 1: I I'm okay with I'm all from management of them.
Speaker 1: At the same time, I'm happy they're on the ecosystem.
Speaker 1: A lot of players to it, they their native species.
Speaker 1: I'm okay with that. UM. So I'm not someone who
Speaker 1: like vehementally anti wolf, but when I see stuff like this,
Speaker 1: they go so far to the other direction that you know,
Speaker 1: Disney fies these animals and makes it seem like they're
Speaker 1: a little happy family of people up there that were
Speaker 1: attacked by vicious hunters. And this whole relationship that they
Speaker 1: kind of contrive from watching something in the spoty scope
Speaker 1: or whatever. Um. I kind of rolled my eyes at
Speaker 1: it a little bit. Not that I don't respect the
Speaker 1: fact that they appreciate and respect these animals so much,
Speaker 1: but something like the way it's tis a strange parallel,
Speaker 1: he says. Rick says this, she had a long, exciting
Speaker 1: life and overcame great difficulties. Tens of thousands of people
Speaker 1: got to see her live that life and were inspired
Speaker 1: by her grit and determination. Her family is carrying on.
Speaker 1: Next April, her adult daughter will likely have a litter
Speaker 1: of new pups at the pax stn. In my attempt
Speaker 1: to deal with the death of of a wolf I
Speaker 1: knew so well and admired so greatly, I thought of
Speaker 1: something I could do. WO was shot about a mile
Speaker 1: from my cabin. I found the site where she had
Speaker 1: blew out her blood out and collected some of her
Speaker 1: frozen blood. I trudged through the snow to where had
Speaker 1: been born and where I had seen her play with
Speaker 1: her pups, and left her remains there. I did it
Speaker 1: for her family, but mostly I did it for her.
Speaker 1: She deserved to come back home. It's good writing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and like I can appreciate appreciation for wildlife and animals
Speaker 1: like them. Yeah that's because I do too. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: not making light of what this guy feels like. I
Speaker 1: understand what he's going through. But I just think it's
Speaker 1: funny that there's this parallel between particularly white tail hunters,
Speaker 1: because you're in close proximity to the animal, right that
Speaker 1: that you can no a deer, probably not from what
Speaker 1: it's born, but pretty freaking close you know, and track
Speaker 1: it and find its sheds and and and understand each
Speaker 1: year what age it is. You get pictures of it
Speaker 1: every year. Um. I know a lot of white tail
Speaker 1: ranges where they have little flipbooks of a deer's whole life,
Speaker 1: like every picture of it. As soon as you call
Speaker 1: it a ranch, and it wasn't Texas, it's a low fencer. Um. Kid.
Speaker 1: But I know what you're saying, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Like there's a relationship they like this guy had a
Speaker 1: relationship with the wolf. He just like he took it
Speaker 1: to what I believe is unrealistic level. Right for at
Speaker 1: least he didn't write about it. I remember the time
Speaker 1: that wolf ate the asshole of a mule deer, although
Speaker 1: that would be a great vignette. Yeah, I remember, you know,
Speaker 1: one time I was I was following the wolf pack
Speaker 1: and she got on the track of a baby of
Speaker 1: a fawn mule deer, and I remember when she ripped
Speaker 1: its throat out. What a wonderful experience. Conveniently leave out
Speaker 1: the part that this is a killing machine, right, I
Speaker 1: don't I don't mind his relationship and his admiration of
Speaker 1: the animal, but he takes away almost all the realism there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so I think that what's interesting is, like I
Speaker 1: have my gut reaction has like boy, roll my eyes.
Speaker 1: But then to your point, if I do put a
Speaker 1: mirror up to myself and look at what I how
Speaker 1: I engage with with deer, you're right, like, there is
Speaker 1: an interesting kind of relationship that forms when you hunt
Speaker 1: the same deer for multiple years, when I see it
Speaker 1: over and over and over again, I studying, and I
Speaker 1: look at trail camera pictures and I observe it, and
Speaker 1: I have, you know, moments of engagement where I see
Speaker 1: this a little close at a close call, or almost
Speaker 1: got a shot at all these different things. Yeah, in
Speaker 1: a really weird way. That's hard to explain to someone
Speaker 1: who's not been a part of that you do form
Speaker 1: a kind of relationship with that animal, which then becomes
Speaker 1: really weird when you talk about the fact that you're
Speaker 1: trying to kill that animal that I so enjoy that,
Speaker 1: I so appreciate that. Um, it's a weird thing. And
Speaker 1: so I have had situations like there was a bucket
Speaker 1: hunted for three years and watched and had a lot
Speaker 1: of encounters with um and after successfully killing that buck,
Speaker 1: eventually I had like a weird swamp of emotions afterwards,
Speaker 1: like sitting back and realizing, Wow, I'm never gonna see
Speaker 1: that dear again. And it's similar, like to this guy
Speaker 1: to the point of the deer you encounter, see you
Speaker 1: don't kill, and a lot of those get killed by
Speaker 1: someone else. So like you are dealing with the same
Speaker 1: thing that there's some buck you're aware of, you've known
Speaker 1: him for four years, and then a neighbor kills him.
Speaker 1: It's very similar to what this guy is talking about. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so there's there's like the these weird parallels, and I
Speaker 1: feel like this is with all hunters and then non
Speaker 1: hunting lovers of wildlife like that this weird parallel we
Speaker 1: always draw what we both care about the animal. There's
Speaker 1: at some point in the parallel line where we divert,
Speaker 1: you know. They go into this like intense, almost unrealistic love,
Speaker 1: and we go into this more pragmatic stance of I'm
Speaker 1: gonna kill it and need it now. We've had this
Speaker 1: caring relationship of this animal for all this time. We
Speaker 1: just take the left fork and they take the right
Speaker 1: for it, and it just we forget that we're traveling
Speaker 1: along the same path, you know. Um. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think it's I guess to to to kind of wrap
Speaker 1: all that up in my own mind, Like I think
Speaker 1: it's probably a good lesson for myself to remember not
Speaker 1: to go to not to jump to that eye rolling,
Speaker 1: um reaction right away when I see something like that,
Speaker 1: but instead remember that, you know, we're on the same
Speaker 1: path for a lot of this, and it's probably much
Speaker 1: more helpful to engage someone like that and talking like, hey,
Speaker 1: I've gotten I've had relationships like this, I respect what
Speaker 1: you're saying and have meaningful conversations versus right away. So
Speaker 1: then these guys are Yahoo's squirrel. Yeah, it's it's way
Speaker 1: too easy. That's the way too easy round and we're
Speaker 1: you know, we're always in whether we'd like to say
Speaker 1: it or not. We like say, oh, we're not in
Speaker 1: an echo chamber. Bullshit. We're all in a similar echo chamber.
Speaker 1: Whether you're in the White Tail space or just the
Speaker 1: Western hunting space or whatever, you're an echo chamber. And
Speaker 1: you're talking about things that would seem crazy, that us
Speaker 1: killing animals that we care about. Is Is it crazy
Speaker 1: to that guy? Is us? Is that dude talking about
Speaker 1: you know, taking bits of blood and burying it? You
Speaker 1: know it is us, same kind of same kind of gap.
Speaker 1: Live in a world filled a lot of paradoxes. So
Speaker 1: are you willing to write this article? And we'll pitch it.
Speaker 1: I know, I know this website. We could put it
Speaker 1: on mediate or dot com. I'd consider it loosely, loosely
Speaker 1: consider we'll have you. We'll have you back alone when
Speaker 1: you're prepared to break here your article, and then well
Speaker 1: then you could write. Then then I scooped up the
Speaker 1: remains of the deer, put it in my truck, drove
Speaker 1: the truck to my house, went inside my house, and
Speaker 1: cook the deer and ate the deer. What a lovely
Speaker 1: And I do see that as a form of show
Speaker 1: in my respects, just like he showed what he did
Speaker 1: as a farm of his respects. Yeah, I'm about to
Speaker 1: have this one. This vegan guy on that was trying
Speaker 1: to argue with me about the morality of our relationship
Speaker 1: with animals and why don't we just treat them like us, Like, well,
Speaker 1: we don't eat us, we eat them. And if you want,
Speaker 1: if you want to display the ultimate understanding what animal is,
Speaker 1: I would imagine that eating it is a part of
Speaker 1: that also understanding your humanity. So it's a there's there's
Speaker 1: two ways to look at that. What was so Mark?
Speaker 1: You could go to Wyoming, like learn the deer herd
Speaker 1: in that area, name a few deer, wait for that
Speaker 1: wolf to kill those deer, and then the proper response
Speaker 1: is I like it your wolf killed my dear that
Speaker 1: I really liked. And then you'd be like I remember
Speaker 1: when dear one to three kill my wolf was born
Speaker 1: and he was yet three hours old, and wolf nine
Speaker 1: to six came around the corner and ate his the
Speaker 1: whole entire body. This has got lots of potentials. I
Speaker 1: remember when one to three was pooped out? What a
Speaker 1: what a day? Yeah? What a day? All right? Let's
Speaker 1: let's just gently move on from that one. Um, I
Speaker 1: want to move on to a subject it's near and
Speaker 1: dear to my heart. Is that if somebody shoots a
Speaker 1: big giant buck, as Steve Ornella would say, and we're
Speaker 1: talking like big bucks, we'll say, for for sake of
Speaker 1: sake of this conversation, it's either a record breaking animal
Speaker 1: of some kind, right, we'll just we'll stick to white
Speaker 1: tails since that sort of thing, or or a deer
Speaker 1: over My question to you two is why do immediately
Speaker 1: all other hunters hate that person? Number one? I think
Speaker 1: that's maybe more obvious. But why is it always that
Speaker 1: that had to be a farm to deer, that had
Speaker 1: to be a high fence deer. Even if, like in
Speaker 1: the case of an article that that we ran on
Speaker 1: our website, even if record book keeping organizations are saying
Speaker 1: this is at the Boone and Crocket Club or the
Speaker 1: Pope and Young Club is saying we accept this into
Speaker 1: a record book, that that means they've done the research
Speaker 1: and they determined it to be fair Chase, Why why
Speaker 1: are most folks first reaction two to throw that shade
Speaker 1: over those types of things? So I would I would
Speaker 1: first said that I don't think most folks come to that.
Speaker 1: I think it's similar to like any almost anything these days,
Speaker 1: Like you throw a political topic out there, there's always
Speaker 1: a very vocal minority. So I think this is the
Speaker 1: case of the vocal minority stealing the spotlight on something
Speaker 1: like that, and that vocal minority oftentimes is angry, lonely, jealous,
Speaker 1: something going on, that this is their way to strike
Speaker 1: out online and feel half a percent better about themselves
Speaker 1: or something. That's my best guess. Yeah, I would agree
Speaker 1: with you that not every hunter thinks that, and it
Speaker 1: is a small group, but it's the loudest group. Um.
Speaker 1: But and I think that's the obvious answer, is like jealousy.
Speaker 1: But I think there is also a point to it
Speaker 1: that like, uh, it's hard, really hard to fathom like
Speaker 1: a two white tail because the majority of hunters have
Speaker 1: not seen I think there's like ten million hunters in
Speaker 1: the US. Uh. Every one of them besides like the
Speaker 1: one guy who killed it, for the most part, has
Speaker 1: never seen a deer that big, and it's not used
Speaker 1: to dear growing that big. But we are in the
Speaker 1: golden age of deer hunting, specifically for white tails, so
Speaker 1: it's hard to fathom that there are deer that big
Speaker 1: out there, Yeah, especially depending on you live to Like,
Speaker 1: if you live in the state that you almost never
Speaker 1: see a hundred twenty inch type buck your whole life,
Speaker 1: to then see a two buck online, it does seem
Speaker 1: kind of unfathomable. Yeah, And and like most recently the uh,
Speaker 1: the buck that was killed by Brewster in Illinois. Illinois
Speaker 1: is a giant white tail state, Like, that's not hard
Speaker 1: to believe that there was a sil white tail tacking
Speaker 1: around there. That's still incredible. Illinois seems like the appropriate
Speaker 1: place for that to happen. But the last time, like
Speaker 1: a notable white tail record dropped, do you remember what
Speaker 1: state that was? In? Mark Tennessee, Tennessee, which if you
Speaker 1: and I made a list of like the top twenty
Speaker 1: white tail states, that would not be on either one
Speaker 1: of our lists. And so that one, it's easy to
Speaker 1: understand how people were skeptical when there's an enormous deer
Speaker 1: out of a southern state like that that is not
Speaker 1: known for white tails. Yeah, I mean think I think skeptics,
Speaker 1: you know, being skeptical is always important, right, That's something
Speaker 1: that you know we should all be willing to accept
Speaker 1: right just to sketch. And there's been a lot of
Speaker 1: folks who shot. I remember a guy at Pennsylvania shoots
Speaker 1: this farm deer, takes it over, throws it in a field,
Speaker 1: walks up on it, tells you because he was jealous
Speaker 1: that his brother had shot a really big deer of
Speaker 1: the year prior, and investigate. Investigation comes out and says, Okay,
Speaker 1: this is bogus. So that that happens, So that creates
Speaker 1: the environment where skepticism is is healthy. But I mean,
Speaker 1: I just want to read you. You know. We posted
Speaker 1: on the Mediator Facebook page an article that Spencer wrote, uh,
Speaker 1: and we said breaking news. After rescoring the Luke Brewster
Speaker 1: white sale, the Pope and Young Club has determined it's
Speaker 1: even larger than previously thought, nearly three inches. It's officially
Speaker 1: the biggest wild buck ever taken. And this thing, if
Speaker 1: you haven't seen it, look up a picture of it.
Speaker 1: It's just it's a bizarre looking deer. It's a bizarre
Speaker 1: looking deer, pretty wild. I haven't looked at the comments,
Speaker 1: but some of my guests people are gonna like reference
Speaker 1: steroids or something like that, or get ready stop posting this.
Speaker 1: Obviously Farm deer. I'm so tired of seeing it. Total bullshit.
Speaker 1: That guy says, this guy says, meat Eater is losing
Speaker 1: credibility with posts like this. The deer on the left,
Speaker 1: which is the Brewster deer, is obviously on the juice.
Speaker 1: I missed the old days of meat Eater. There's too
Speaker 1: much clickbait, the Barry Bonds of deer. It's pretty funny.
Speaker 1: Um game Farm released. I'm sure this ship's out of control.
Speaker 1: It's pretty much every every other comment of the commentary
Speaker 1: here is is about this. So what do what do
Speaker 1: we do? Just take it and take it and say
Speaker 1: it's existed in skepticism these people. So you're saying all
Speaker 1: the lonely people you were talking about happened to be
Speaker 1: on Facebook, happen they also happened to follow meat Eater.
Speaker 1: I just feel like you tend to get that kind
Speaker 1: of thing. When when a big buck, exceptionally big buck
Speaker 1: gets put up, there's gonna be a group of folks
Speaker 1: that want to jump on it. They want to jump
Speaker 1: to conclusions, to have a jump to conclusions. Matt and
Speaker 1: away his air towards the negative side, and you see
Speaker 1: somebody with a deer that big I think a lot
Speaker 1: of guys naturally jumped too, Like this guy is an
Speaker 1: asshole with money, like he when paid twelve tho dollars
Speaker 1: to shoot that buck behind the high fence in Ohio
Speaker 1: or Texas or whatever. And that's like what a lot
Speaker 1: of people are projecting onto a wild deer from Illinois.
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, this guy says he was he was
Speaker 1: definitely being fed supplements. Awesome buck though, Yeah, you know
Speaker 1: it's it's funny because you're right, like the latter does happen, right,
Speaker 1: There are people that will pay some ridiculous some money
Speaker 1: to go I want to call hunt, do you want
Speaker 1: to go shoot an animal that it's in a high
Speaker 1: fence area? And I have all sorts of opinions and
Speaker 1: thoughts and issues of that, um valid concerns around that.
Speaker 1: Um so yeah, people probably then make assumptions and project
Speaker 1: that onto some of these deer that do seem so
Speaker 1: out of the ordinary. And I guess there's something part
Speaker 1: of me that can understand why might jumped to that.
Speaker 1: I just like I personally don't ever feel the need
Speaker 1: to go in comment like maybe in my health big
Speaker 1: that's kind of sketchy looking, but I don't see the
Speaker 1: need to go in there and publicly say you're a
Speaker 1: douche bag. This is obviously on stuff. Lem's blah blah blah,
Speaker 1: and most people wouldn't. Most people don't. Most people, but
Speaker 1: I I just remember reading these comments when it first
Speaker 1: came out. I just thought, and if this is not again,
Speaker 1: I used to work with North American white tail back
Speaker 1: in the day. I've I've seen this stuff. We post
Speaker 1: things and it will almost always be the reaction. Um.
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure if it's this a symptom of
Speaker 1: the white tale's community obsession with giant things. Uh. And
Speaker 1: I don't. I think the white tail community obsession with
Speaker 1: giant antlers didn't help create, but is is symptomatic of
Speaker 1: the you know, high fence breeder bucks, like those things
Speaker 1: are connected. Yeah, man, I don't think this. I don't
Speaker 1: think you can just say it's just the white tail
Speaker 1: community though. Man, the entire hunting community. No. Yeah, we're like,
Speaker 1: I'm just saying white tails because we're sitting here with
Speaker 1: talking about white tails. Um. I with the entire hunting
Speaker 1: community fetishize is big antlers for sure, absolutely, And there's
Speaker 1: plenty of you know, the spider bowl being one of them.
Speaker 1: There's plenty of l hunters who have bought a giant tag,
Speaker 1: you know, paid six figures, bought a tag, had a
Speaker 1: bunch of people go track down an LP for him.
Speaker 1: They walk in and shoot it, take a picture whe it.
Speaker 1: They're the record holder. So I mean there is a
Speaker 1: lot of h a lot of it's called duggery around
Speaker 1: big animals. But you know, the white tailed world, like
Speaker 1: you know, the traditional television programs, traditional print media in
Speaker 1: the digital space, like there's this fetishizing of big bucks
Speaker 1: that has to have an effect on the culture in
Speaker 1: a negative way. And like the people that commented that
Speaker 1: you rather comment specifically, they're just uneducated assholes. Like that's
Speaker 1: the easiest way to put it. Wow, that's a strong stan.
Speaker 1: Well here's my point. So like, and I'll tell you
Speaker 1: their names. The Bruister Buck, I think, uh, the two
Speaker 1: deer that it passed were in and I had to
Speaker 1: write in there specifically hunter killed deer because it did
Speaker 1: not surpass like the biggest white tail in the books,
Speaker 1: which I think we're two other ones. Um one was
Speaker 1: like do you do you remember Mark? It was hit,
Speaker 1: it was killed by somebody found it or there was
Speaker 1: like a buck found in Missouri that was dead back
Speaker 1: in like the sixties or something. So that was, you know,
Speaker 1: fifty years ago that there wasn't high fence white tail
Speaker 1: farms at that point. And I think there was another
Speaker 1: deer like fifty years ago that was also found dead
Speaker 1: that is at the very very top of the record book.
Speaker 1: And so like even in En when that deer was killed. Uh,
Speaker 1: there were bigger dudes than that pretty long time ago.
Speaker 1: It's a good point. Yeah that had been found. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, you want I just wonder about that why
Speaker 1: that reaction is triggered. And most people, like you said
Speaker 1: that the easiest answers be like their assholes. Um, there's
Speaker 1: other answers to that question, though, I sure. I think
Speaker 1: maybe what you're getting at is that there is a
Speaker 1: pushback to the big buck fetish and maybe this is
Speaker 1: a similar this this is a reaction just a lot
Speaker 1: of regular folks are tired of it. Um. But again
Speaker 1: they I think given a chance, they would shoot that buck, right,
Speaker 1: everybody would shoot that buck given a chance. But I
Speaker 1: think there's there's there's a lot of people that are
Speaker 1: just tired of it. Some people said in those comments
Speaker 1: they would not choose that buck. Though I remember someone saying,
Speaker 1: like that steroid deer, I wouldn't shoot that thing like
Speaker 1: wild deer better eating, But that person is an asshole,
Speaker 1: wouldn't shoot Yeah, Like to your point, I agree in
Speaker 1: that it has gone overboard in a lot of ways,
Speaker 1: and the way we like hero worship people that shoot
Speaker 1: big deer and and try to um assign some kind
Speaker 1: of value or skill level to a hunter or people
Speaker 1: self assigned to themselves, like I'm a big bad because
Speaker 1: I kill all these big too earnish bucks or whatever.
Speaker 1: I see that being like ridiculous. Um. I don't think
Speaker 1: that high scoring bucks in any way represent some type
Speaker 1: of skill in most cases to a certain hunter. In
Speaker 1: many cases, it's just a product of where you happen
Speaker 1: to be or good luck, or in some cases there
Speaker 1: are guys who spend a lot of time trying to
Speaker 1: find animals like that, and you can't say that that
Speaker 1: didn't take them some amount of work, um and things
Speaker 1: like that. But in general, I think that the way
Speaker 1: I look at Antler's score and stuff like that, now,
Speaker 1: to me just personally, it's like, do I find big
Speaker 1: bucks exciting to see, fun to hunt? Like awesome? And
Speaker 1: just like a cool, enjoyable, interesting, fascinating animal to look at,
Speaker 1: sea hunt look for Yeah, like they're just cool. You
Speaker 1: can't help but look at an animal like that and
Speaker 1: marvel at what is the relatively rare thing in a
Speaker 1: species and animal that reached a high age that has
Speaker 1: the genetic ChIL to to grow large anglers. And it's
Speaker 1: a beautiful, cool rare of things. So I don't think
Speaker 1: there's an issue with appreciating that, um and I certainly do.
Speaker 1: And I think also it's fair to say that even
Speaker 1: the people that get pissy and common stuff like that,
Speaker 1: even they appreciate that too, like there, well, that's a
Speaker 1: heck of a buck. Like that's cool. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of like, oh, steroids book, great buck. But I think
Speaker 1: I think the I think the frustration begins like when
Speaker 1: we start saying like or when people start feeling like
Speaker 1: they have to kill do like that to feel good
Speaker 1: about themselves or to be a quote unquote big counter.
Speaker 1: Like there's like self worth things that get tied into
Speaker 1: all this now because we're saying, oh, such and such
Speaker 1: is so amazing because he's killed five booners this year,
Speaker 1: and I think everybody else that says, well, I won't
Speaker 1: even see a one tent or something. Then there's gonna
Speaker 1: be some bitterness. And there shows like Team two hundred
Speaker 1: and and you know people like Spook Span who have
Speaker 1: like the the that's that's how they get their street
Speaker 1: cred um. And I think, like I said, I think
Speaker 1: culturally hunting it's appropriate to you know, want to or
Speaker 1: lust after like the the rarity of a large and
Speaker 1: like that. To me, it's appropriate. It's not it's not
Speaker 1: something that's something that I do. If I see a
Speaker 1: big buck, I'm not gonna be like now, I'll keep looking. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm excited by the big buck. There's four bucks in
Speaker 1: the field. The biggest ones on I'm looking at, I mean,
Speaker 1: the most unique ones sometimes is the one I'm looking at.
Speaker 1: So I don't begrudge anybody that. But I think as
Speaker 1: as our culture has kind of dug deeper into what
Speaker 1: that really means psychologically, we've kind of gone in some
Speaker 1: weird directions, and like the white tail community I think
Speaker 1: is ground zero for that kind of shift in hunting culture.
Speaker 1: But it's everybody. The Pope and Young Record Book has
Speaker 1: had seventeen of the thirty four records broken in the
Speaker 1: last decade. That's not coincidental. Like every hunter who targets
Speaker 1: big game has an infatuation with you know, big animals
Speaker 1: or big antlers, not just the white tail community. And
Speaker 1: it should be pointed out this is not new. No,
Speaker 1: Like this was happening a hundred years ago, two d
Speaker 1: years ago, Like Theodore Roosevelt was really pumped up to
Speaker 1: find a really big elk or a really big white
Speaker 1: And when folks were putting cap paintings on the wall,
Speaker 1: you know, there's these are big antlered animals. They weren't
Speaker 1: showing the little spikes. So I think it's natural for
Speaker 1: humans and hunters to see something like that and like wow,
Speaker 1: But media and culture and all these things have probably
Speaker 1: cranked it up to that's yes, I think, like I said,
Speaker 1: it's appropriate, And like the bigger question I don't. I
Speaker 1: don't think any of us could really answer, is why
Speaker 1: is it natural? Like what about that? What about that
Speaker 1: animal in our relationship? That animal makes it natural for
Speaker 1: us to desire to shoot the biggest one? Right? I
Speaker 1: think we have posthumously started to you know, we'll get
Speaker 1: into shooting young bucks here, but we've posthumously assigned it
Speaker 1: to management, right, Um like, if you're if you're if
Speaker 1: you're saying that, you know, the q d M, a
Speaker 1: style of white tail hunting didn't come and wasn't didn't
Speaker 1: come into play in the thirties, sure didn't come into
Speaker 1: play at the turn of the century. Um, so we've
Speaker 1: posthumously kind of added that to the the ledger of
Speaker 1: reasons why we do it. Yeah, I think it's definitely
Speaker 1: part of it now, but certainly not all um that
Speaker 1: in specifics. But yeah, I don't have any answer to
Speaker 1: why it's natural. I could try to articulated, but I
Speaker 1: don't know that I could very well. And I think
Speaker 1: that's a problem. That's part of the problem. It's hard
Speaker 1: to it's hard to articulate why that why it is,
Speaker 1: why it is? I mean, if I was, I think
Speaker 1: it's it's My guess is that it's like a combination
Speaker 1: of just the pure aesthetics, Like it's just aesthetically when
Speaker 1: you see a large antlered animal, just like when you
Speaker 1: see a huge bear, just like when you see a
Speaker 1: huge lion, or any any kind of large, formidable top
Speaker 1: of its species type of feature set, Like that's just
Speaker 1: an aesthetically impressive thing. Just now why that's impressive. I
Speaker 1: can't answer that question, but maybe it goes back to
Speaker 1: our long long ago ancestors that are used to having
Speaker 1: to be able to assign some kind of value to
Speaker 1: an animal based off of physical characteristics or size. It
Speaker 1: would help us understand if it's dangerous, if it's worth
Speaker 1: pursuing for food, whatever. Way back in the day. Maybe
Speaker 1: that's something that it was helpful for us to be
Speaker 1: able to ascertain by visually, you know, looking at an
Speaker 1: animal like that. Maybe. And I do think the rarity
Speaker 1: of something makes it makes the value higher to whether
Speaker 1: that be a mineral, whether it be an animal, whether
Speaker 1: that be a nice pair of sneakers something, Things that
Speaker 1: are rare are always looked at as more valuable. And
Speaker 1: I think that just natural then applies in this case. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think hunters also. I think humans desire challenge, right.
Speaker 1: You desire you seek if you if you seek improvement,
Speaker 1: you seek the greatest amount of challenge. Right. So if
Speaker 1: you seek improvement as a hunter, you seek you know,
Speaker 1: by by proxy, you're seeking this rare thing or this
Speaker 1: challenging thing to find, and you're and almost somewhere deep
Speaker 1: down you're facing off with the most challenging animal to kill. Right, Um,
Speaker 1: we all know sneaking up on a one year old
Speaker 1: white tail is a lot different than sneaking up on
Speaker 1: a six year old white tail. Um, whether it's a
Speaker 1: bucker or do so. I don't know that we'll ever
Speaker 1: really get to that part of it, but I think
Speaker 1: it's an example of how these how sometimes we just
Speaker 1: do things because it's it's part of our culture without
Speaker 1: thinking about the grand effect of it. And there's the
Speaker 1: issue I think in that, or what worries me within
Speaker 1: the culture is that you get people who feel that
Speaker 1: they have to just do this thing because it's what
Speaker 1: you do. And I think that's when you get some
Speaker 1: bitterness because there's maybe some people that don't actually want
Speaker 1: to be or need to be targeting big or mature bucks,
Speaker 1: but they feel like there's this cultural pressure to do so.
Speaker 1: And so you've got people that are just starting out hunting,
Speaker 1: maybe um or people that you know, just they want
Speaker 1: to get some meat and they don't care about hunting
Speaker 1: for four months. They just want to have their weekend
Speaker 1: and want to fill the freezer, which is perfectly fine,
Speaker 1: but they don't like the fact that when they do that,
Speaker 1: they've got a neighbor who gives them crap about it,
Speaker 1: Or there's a new hunter who listens to the Wired
Speaker 1: and podcast and reads the Meteor website and they see
Speaker 1: big Bucks all the time on these websites and they
Speaker 1: hear about us talking about these things, and they're thinking, well,
Speaker 1: that's what everyone's doing, I better do it too, Like
Speaker 1: I don't want to not be the person doing that.
Speaker 1: So I think that's the danger, is that making it
Speaker 1: seem like it's what everyone should be doing or has
Speaker 1: to be doing, or that that is what everyone's doing.
Speaker 1: I think that's where, um, you get these false um
Speaker 1: limitations put on people. Maybe that um, it could be
Speaker 1: a matter of fulfillment to like it's a challenging you're
Speaker 1: wanting a thing and wanting to be fulfilled, but there's
Speaker 1: some sort of intrinsic like there's there's always it would
Speaker 1: be easier if intrinsically you're like, I just want to
Speaker 1: kill an animal, right and I just want to either
Speaker 1: eat it or yeah, even hanging on my wall. I
Speaker 1: don't really care what to what age the animal is
Speaker 1: or how big the set of anilers are on its head.
Speaker 1: I just will be fulfilled if I go outside experience
Speaker 1: this and at the end of the day I'm successful
Speaker 1: in killing a animal. That would that would be much
Speaker 1: easier and probably a much more fulfilling hunting life, right,
Speaker 1: Like I think I think there's have you heard about
Speaker 1: the stages of hunters? Like there's is like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's not. Not everybody goes through all these stages, but
Speaker 1: there is sometimes a somewhat generic set of steps up
Speaker 1: the ladder that sometimes, uh typically hunters might take, at
Speaker 1: least like for myself, I could say I followed something
Speaker 1: along that, right, there's yeah, that first phase that you
Speaker 1: just want to like figure it out and be able
Speaker 1: to kill an animal, figure out how to hunt. And
Speaker 1: so you finally do that, and that's awesome at that point,
Speaker 1: like getting any animals a huge accomplishment and it's a
Speaker 1: big step in this new direction. And then eventually figure
Speaker 1: out how to do that and then to your point
Speaker 1: about challenge. Many times, if you find that fulfilling and
Speaker 1: you enjoy that and you want to participate in that more,
Speaker 1: then it's like, how do you take it to the
Speaker 1: next what's the next step, what's the next challenge, what's
Speaker 1: the next way to deepen this thing? I'm into and
Speaker 1: that's then usually it's I want to numbers. It's like
Speaker 1: I want to kill. I want to have a lot
Speaker 1: of success as a hunter, So hunt a bunch, feel,
Speaker 1: a bunch of tags, whatever it might be. And then
Speaker 1: many times then the next step is, Okay, I've figured
Speaker 1: out how to do that. Then for many people it's
Speaker 1: how do I do that next rare thing, which is
Speaker 1: killing an older or bigger animal. And then again that's
Speaker 1: that's a challenge thing. And then eventually many people get
Speaker 1: to the point where I've checked the boxes. I've had
Speaker 1: these really long seasons where I hunted these deer for
Speaker 1: a long time. I've killed some big mature bucks. That
Speaker 1: was really exciting, and I learned a lot and I
Speaker 1: became a great hunter. Now, you know, now I'm not
Speaker 1: quite as interested in that. I mean, it's still fun
Speaker 1: what happens, but now I just really want to see
Speaker 1: my kids have success. I really want to help other
Speaker 1: people have success. I really just want to be out
Speaker 1: there and enjoy the scenery and just soak it all
Speaker 1: in and think back on all those great memories. I
Speaker 1: don't need to pull the tricker now to still enjoy it.
Speaker 1: Just the process. Um, I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: go through that you don't have to. So that final
Speaker 1: one is kind of like a Buddhist mentality. I think
Speaker 1: maybe eliminated the craving, because that's a big thing in Buddhism,
Speaker 1: like the the four Noble Truths, Right, you eliminate they're
Speaker 1: basically just saying you're eliminating the craving, right, and that's
Speaker 1: bring a less desirous and more happy life. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people to bring Buddhism in
Speaker 1: the fucking White Tales, that'd be an interesting podcast to
Speaker 1: do right there. And this is and they can't be
Speaker 1: measured in quite anecdotal, but I feel like maybe we've
Speaker 1: hit the climax already of like big buck media and
Speaker 1: big culture. Like if you think back twenty years ago,
Speaker 1: the only way that you were getting like anything around
Speaker 1: White Tails, it's not the Internet. It was like DVDs
Speaker 1: that were called Big Booners Volume ten were like on
Speaker 1: the Outdoor Channel or through one of the magazines that
Speaker 1: puts you know, Hunter and White Tails on the cover.
Speaker 1: That's not so much the case anymore. There's a bunch
Speaker 1: of different YouTube channels of amateurs um you know, like
Speaker 1: us that are out there and get jacked about killing
Speaker 1: a public land here or uh, you know, are stoked
Speaker 1: about killing hunter white tail with a gun whatever. Um.
Speaker 1: But that like wasn't the case with white Tail media
Speaker 1: maybe like twenty five years ago. And now that it's
Speaker 1: not just like such a limit of options that it's magazines,
Speaker 1: DVD ease or the outdoor channel, I feel like we're
Speaker 1: coming down from that of just being kill giant ear
Speaker 1: because there's there's so many more voices. Yes, in the space,
Speaker 1: there's a diversity of options and a diversity of of
Speaker 1: demand from people, Like people want to see stuff that's
Speaker 1: closer to what they experience in the real world, and
Speaker 1: there's definitely people that are starting to share them. I
Speaker 1: think it's great. I think it's good that there's all
Speaker 1: these different things out there. I think it's great to
Speaker 1: show all the different ways of hunting and all the
Speaker 1: different types of end results and and and uh validate
Speaker 1: all of them. Like they're all great. If you want
Speaker 1: to target mature bucks, go for it, that's awesome. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of cool things about it. If you want
Speaker 1: to go out there and shoot young bucks, go for it.
Speaker 1: It's awesome. Do whatever. It's filling and legal. Um, it's
Speaker 1: gonna be different for all of us. I just think
Speaker 1: that I have nothing wrong with like being intrigued and
Speaker 1: interested entireet mature bucks myself and talk to people that are.
Speaker 1: They're like that, that's cool, it's fun, it's interesting. Certainly
Speaker 1: nothing to be a shame like. There's certainly nothing we
Speaker 1: have to apologize for. And I think the same thing
Speaker 1: is both ways. It's just like, you know, just making
Speaker 1: sure people understand, especially for new people that are just
Speaker 1: getting into it, that's feeling. Something I've always tried to do.
Speaker 1: I've always tried to emphasize us within the Wired Hunt podcast.
Speaker 1: Is like, you're gonna hear a guy today who's going
Speaker 1: to tell you about how he kills this year? And
Speaker 1: is that interesting? Is that rare? Is that kind of crazy? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And it it took some interesting strategies and tactics do
Speaker 1: all those. That's interesting. But I just want to make
Speaker 1: it clear that interest is not what it's all about.
Speaker 1: This does not make you a lesser hunter or less
Speaker 1: interesting hunter because you haven't done anything like that. I've
Speaker 1: always tried to make sure that when new people get
Speaker 1: into this community, they don't fall into this um assumption
Speaker 1: that you have to be. Yeah, that's that extrinsic piece
Speaker 1: of it, right, So they see the motive. Their motivation
Speaker 1: is to kind of like be part of the club
Speaker 1: or please the social media followers, you know. Or that's
Speaker 1: where the mouse trap or the you know, the maze
Speaker 1: of social media gets you know, we're dangling the the
Speaker 1: thing that you want. We'll put you in a maze
Speaker 1: to go and get it. Well, if you post just
Speaker 1: what you want to post or just what makes you
Speaker 1: feel good, that's not that's not gonna work here here
Speaker 1: on social media. That's not how this works. You post
Speaker 1: what other people want to see, right, and you post
Speaker 1: the kind of hashtags that get uh, that gets you noticed.
Speaker 1: You post the kind of things that gets you noticed.
Speaker 1: And now and now you have the your Now you're
Speaker 1: the mouse that found the cheese in the maze. But
Speaker 1: if you decided to take another path, it's gonna be
Speaker 1: a whole lot longer until you get desired number above
Speaker 1: your name on Instagram. It depends on what you want.
Speaker 1: It depends on what you want. Some people, it's all
Speaker 1: about trying to get those validators like a right, and
Speaker 1: so there's lots of I think that's just it's just
Speaker 1: it's a part of every community. I'm sure it's part
Speaker 1: of the fashion community. It's part of just like it's
Speaker 1: part of the hunting community. People people want to take shortcuts,
Speaker 1: People desire to be known, and so it manifests itself
Speaker 1: in weird ways, and then it manifests itself in a
Speaker 1: weird way in hunting, and it has moving on shooting
Speaker 1: immature bucks. We just kind of we took a we
Speaker 1: took a hard left at you know, fetishizing trophy deer.
Speaker 1: We had we did have to cover for lover likes
Speaker 1: a little detour, a little detour. We covered that, and
Speaker 1: we're gonna go back to kind of the antithesis of
Speaker 1: fetishizing a big old, big old buck, which is which
Speaker 1: is shooting um young bucks. So it give us a
Speaker 1: quick rundown. We had an article on the Old Mediator
Speaker 1: dot com by Brodie Henderson about this um mark and
Speaker 1: you give us just a quick rundown of of that
Speaker 1: and then just kind of your perspective on shooting young
Speaker 1: bucks and kind of the issues at hand. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: this article that Brody rowe kind of shared his personal
Speaker 1: perspective on this issue, that being why do some people
Speaker 1: get chastised for shooting young deer, small deer, et cetera.
Speaker 1: And I do think this is a symptom a little
Speaker 1: bit of this conversation we've been having about the big
Speaker 1: buck mania, about all this value of being applied to
Speaker 1: big deer, big antlers so much that within the media
Speaker 1: and then now in our culture, um, people are really
Speaker 1: excited about big antlers. And what you get is sometimes
Speaker 1: people that are super gung ho about that, super gung
Speaker 1: ho about their own personal goals, that they then put
Speaker 1: that on other people. And so if they see someone
Speaker 1: shoot a young deer, that is not gonna help them
Speaker 1: reach their own goals because they want to see kill
Speaker 1: big deer. They will then ridicule that person. And so
Speaker 1: there's certainly some of that going on, which is a
Speaker 1: big time bummer. I'm not happy about that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: What is the reality it happens? So, so Brodie's article
Speaker 1: kind of laid out, kind of laid out, um, you know,
Speaker 1: a little bit, a very kind of high level overview
Speaker 1: of how the culture has changed a little bit, how
Speaker 1: much people focus on big deer, and then how there's
Speaker 1: some of this ridicule. Now there's the folks that don't
Speaker 1: do that and how they get um chastised a bit. Um.
Speaker 1: Now I have some qualms with Brodie's arcle a little
Speaker 1: bit though, Um. I think he misrepresented a few things, um.
Speaker 1: And so this is a little bit unfair to make
Speaker 1: these stadiums without Brodie here to defend himself. He's an article.
Speaker 1: Is his article, yep, um, But he took a few
Speaker 1: like quotes out of context. And he also applied some
Speaker 1: blame to an organization, um, that mean, the Quality Deer
Speaker 1: Management Association. So basically what's going on here is there's
Speaker 1: two things. There is the fact that there was an organization,
Speaker 1: the Quality Deer Management Association, which is a conservation organization,
Speaker 1: to start decades ago that was one of the first
Speaker 1: to wildly discuss how you could better manage wild deer
Speaker 1: herds to achieve older deer and bigger deer. They also
Speaker 1: talked about you brought this up at the beginning, the
Speaker 1: whole swath of different benefits to the overall ecosystem into
Speaker 1: a deer head in general by doing this. But a
Speaker 1: big part of that was like you did see a
Speaker 1: bigger deer, older deer, and there's a whole bunch of
Speaker 1: things to go with a different kind of hunting experience,
Speaker 1: different types of behavior. You see a lot of cool
Speaker 1: things come out of it. But the Quality Deer Management
Speaker 1: Association was like one of the first groups to really
Speaker 1: spread that and talk about them. What happened, though, was
Speaker 1: that their message and their management philosophy got hijacked by
Speaker 1: a lot of people, and people took a lot of
Speaker 1: things they talked about and then they just took bits
Speaker 1: and parts of it though, and then put it on
Speaker 1: the TV show and they started growing big deer, and
Speaker 1: they started saying, I practice quality deer management, I shoot
Speaker 1: big box, I shoot trophy Bucks. And over the last
Speaker 1: two decades, that message of what the Quality Deer Management
Speaker 1: Association was doing and talking about has been now deluded
Speaker 1: into trophy management killing big deer, and the people like
Speaker 1: to do that. And but people apply that part of
Speaker 1: quality deer management to now generic quality deer management. So
Speaker 1: what you get now is a backlash to that. So
Speaker 1: when people hear about um trophy Bucks, people trying to
Speaker 1: kill big deer, people that are mad at people for
Speaker 1: shooting small deer, they like to point the finger at
Speaker 1: the Qualitier Management Association say that this organization is spreading
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, and so Brody made put a
Speaker 1: quote in there, um, a portion of a quote from
Speaker 1: the Quality Deer Management website um along the lines of
Speaker 1: the fact that, uh, you know, there's a quote where
Speaker 1: the cutie Mayson says something like in the case where
Speaker 1: you know young children, new hunters are student a deer,
Speaker 1: is perfectly acceptable for them to shoot young deer and
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. And Brodie made the point that
Speaker 1: he thought it was absurd to have a qualifier there.
Speaker 1: That he said that it's absurd that the Quality Deer
Speaker 1: Management Association is saying it's only okay for new hunters
Speaker 1: or uh, young hunters to shoot young bucks. Brodie's assertion
Speaker 1: was that everyone should feel fine and do that. You
Speaker 1: should shoot whatever you want to shoot. Number one, agree
Speaker 1: with them. I think that your goals as the hunters
Speaker 1: should be, you know, related to nothing but your own
Speaker 1: personal goals. You should not feel obligated to do anything else.
Speaker 1: Differently that what filth fills you brings you enjoyment, etcetera, etcetera. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let me read this quote real quicke from the from
Speaker 1: the q D that he put in here. It's best
Speaker 1: not to force other hunters to jump to advance levels
Speaker 1: of buck management if they're not ready. They should also
Speaker 1: be afforded the opportunity to start with younger bucks and
Speaker 1: work their way up. Cutie may even see just that
Speaker 1: young or new hunters be allowed to take any buck,
Speaker 1: even a yearly, if that's their desire. Yes, And so
Speaker 1: I think what happened? Then when I'm reading that, I'm
Speaker 1: thinking to the whole point the qualifier, like, why isn't
Speaker 1: the QT main support of anyone shooting whatever they want? Um?
Speaker 1: I will say that Brodie did include a quote the
Speaker 1: end that did show the director of Conservation from the
Speaker 1: Quality Management Association specifically saying you know very clearly, hey,
Speaker 1: like we support anyone shooting whatever it is. You can
Speaker 1: read that quote too, Yeah, read to take a moment
Speaker 1: for to remember why we hunt. This is Kip Adams talking.
Speaker 1: Your reason may differ from your neighbors, So don't be
Speaker 1: critical of what he or she legally shoots or chooses
Speaker 1: to pass, and never apologize for what you shoot. YEA.
Speaker 1: So now coming back to the moral of my story
Speaker 1: and how there's been the Quality Management Association and then
Speaker 1: there's this version of QTM that's been hijacked by the
Speaker 1: trophy hunting mentality. There is um so I have studied
Speaker 1: quality deer management very like the real quality management has
Speaker 1: laid out by the founders of Quality Management Association and
Speaker 1: then science behind it and all the different parts of it,
Speaker 1: and there's much much more to it than just shooting
Speaker 1: huge deer and telling your neighborsition shoot small deer. The
Speaker 1: Quality Deer Management Association themselves, especially over the last five
Speaker 1: years or so, have been really clear and taking a
Speaker 1: lot of um putting a lot of time and energy
Speaker 1: behind trying to also make that clear too, because there's been,
Speaker 1: unfortunately some people that take this message and have bent
Speaker 1: it into their own little warped idea, and there are
Speaker 1: some people that are pretty nasty about it, and there
Speaker 1: are some people who do ridicule other people, and so
Speaker 1: there's definitely some bad apples out there. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of folks that go way too far with this. My
Speaker 1: issue is trying to put that on the Qualitier Management Association,
Speaker 1: which is a conservation organization that has been doing a
Speaker 1: lot of really good things for white tails and for
Speaker 1: deer hunters, and has made it really clear that the
Speaker 1: kind of quote that kept made there like that is
Speaker 1: that is the philosophy and the message I've heard from
Speaker 1: them over and over again, like they share all sorts
Speaker 1: of different insights and strategies and things that you can
Speaker 1: do if you so desire to try to manage for
Speaker 1: older deer. But that quote that Broody pulled about the
Speaker 1: we would even say for young hunters, an adult or
Speaker 1: new hunters, that was in response to a specific question
Speaker 1: about someone who already wants to manage for older deer.
Speaker 1: So I think I think my point is that let's
Speaker 1: not rail on qum A saying that they are at
Speaker 1: fault here. I think it's it's uh a bastardization of
Speaker 1: some things they originally brought to the table that have
Speaker 1: now become the bad apple. And I think the name
Speaker 1: of the organization like tends to trip some people up
Speaker 1: who are not familiar with it because you hear like
Speaker 1: quality and management um. The optics of that are like
Speaker 1: raising big deer. That's what you think if it was
Speaker 1: called white Tails Unlimited or North American Deer. So as
Speaker 1: if you took the word deer on put habitat right
Speaker 1: would change, it would would totally change. So I think
Speaker 1: people who aren't familiar familiar with q d m A
Speaker 1: kind of get tripped up over the name, and uh
Speaker 1: don't realize that they are all about like healthy herds. Um.
Speaker 1: If I'm ever working on a story about something biology
Speaker 1: related to dear, I reach out to them and they
Speaker 1: have the answer. I mean, those guys are great. If
Speaker 1: I'm working on something about why white tails are shedding early,
Speaker 1: they have the answer because it has to do with
Speaker 1: dear health. If I'm working on something about um some
Speaker 1: buck and I will that never shed is rack, I
Speaker 1: reach out to q d m A. They have the
Speaker 1: answer that kind of thing. So I think that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the optics of the quality and the management which is
Speaker 1: aren't great for them if people aren't familiar with what
Speaker 1: they actually do. Yeah. No, I think that these are
Speaker 1: both really like really good points, and I'm probably falling
Speaker 1: into that camp a bunch, right. I've liked out of
Speaker 1: my whole life. But the q d m A thing
Speaker 1: was always something that it was problematic. Were not problematic
Speaker 1: because of what I like what I new of q
Speaker 1: d m A, but problematic about how people you know,
Speaker 1: applied it talked about it. Right, So your point's well taken, Mark,
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of people that are not you know,
Speaker 1: they're they're everything is second hand, right, You're seeing you know,
Speaker 1: their philosophies taken and twisted, and and that's what you're
Speaker 1: that's your experience. So that's that's a good point, and
Speaker 1: that's something that happens in way more than just this
Speaker 1: this instance. But that's a good point well taken. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think I would I would challenge anyone who
Speaker 1: has like a negative perception of that organization to go
Speaker 1: and actually like listen to a podcast that some of
Speaker 1: those guys have been on with me, or to read
Speaker 1: like the tenets of their of their philosophies that are
Speaker 1: not just about shooting mature bucks. But there's a strong
Speaker 1: focus on hunter recruitment, on improving hunter access, on um
Speaker 1: educating all hunters on things not just related to growing
Speaker 1: big bucks or playing food plots, but everything, Like they've
Speaker 1: got a lot of programs, especially now. One of their
Speaker 1: major goals for the next ten years, I think it
Speaker 1: is is all about really taking a strong stance of
Speaker 1: diversifying the group of hunters that they can help. And
Speaker 1: so they are very well aware of the perception that
Speaker 1: we're talking about, like they're well aware of that, and
Speaker 1: it's a big frustration for them internally, and so they're
Speaker 1: taking steps to really try to go make sure that
Speaker 1: people no, that's not the case. So there's cut may
Speaker 1: folks are going out there and they're doing habit at
Speaker 1: work on public land. They're trying to improve public land
Speaker 1: for people. There's a whole bunch of really cool programs
Speaker 1: they're doing right now to help introduce new adult onset
Speaker 1: hunters into this space by going to uh like food
Speaker 1: markets and stuff downtown and finding people that are interested
Speaker 1: in like local grown food and giving venison. Like here's
Speaker 1: like a tri sample of venison. This is great, you know,
Speaker 1: free range food that was harvested locally. If this tastes
Speaker 1: good to you, if you want to try to learn
Speaker 1: how to how to you know, start harvesting your own meat,
Speaker 1: we'd love to teach you and show you. So they're
Speaker 1: doing some really cool things that are benefiting all hunters,
Speaker 1: not just guys that want to shoot big box. And
Speaker 1: I just think that's like an important thing to know,
Speaker 1: and that was even recognized, but I think it was
Speaker 1: like the New York Times maybe um that has no
Speaker 1: preconceived notions of what q d m A is. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know they had heard about that and they went
Speaker 1: and did an article about adult onset hunters and q
Speaker 1: dm A like helping introduce them, and so they are
Speaker 1: doing like a ton of good things. Yeah. Still like
Speaker 1: the general sentiment of Brodie's article agreed with, Like, no
Speaker 1: one should be feeling pressure to to have hunting goals
Speaker 1: that are tied to somebody else's. You read you his
Speaker 1: closing paragraph to just sorry, keep interrupting. Um, there's nothing
Speaker 1: wrong with wanting to kill big bucks and wanting more
Speaker 1: of them around for a futurounting seasons. However, for all
Speaker 1: being honest, using these arguments to make a case against
Speaker 1: anyone who is happy with a young buck his race
Speaker 1: primarily on selfish motivations that should not apply to all hunters.
Speaker 1: Agree with that, and I think any rational hunter would
Speaker 1: agree with that, that you shoot what makes you happy
Speaker 1: as long as it's legal. Yeah, But I mean there
Speaker 1: are definitely some people out there who don't feel that
Speaker 1: way unfortunately, Like I know, there there are some people
Speaker 1: that are, and they're there. I would point to them
Speaker 1: as as hole in the boat pokers, These people that
Speaker 1: are like really nasty about this stuff and like so
Speaker 1: so intent on pushing their personal goals on everybody else.
Speaker 1: I think you're putting holes in the boat. Um. So
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not okay with that. Um. I'm okay
Speaker 1: with Brody's arkle I ingredents, but he said there. My
Speaker 1: only issue is just I feel like he kind of
Speaker 1: made it look like Cutie May was the problem. Um.
Speaker 1: And that was the one thing that I would that
Speaker 1: make sense. I mean, you know, I've I've always found
Speaker 1: that when you look at this issue, that and I
Speaker 1: was a part of it. Um in Pennsylvania when I
Speaker 1: was growing up in um other places near where I
Speaker 1: grew up in Maryland, they just started putting in minimum
Speaker 1: point restrictions, right. I mean, I feel like that's an
Speaker 1: effective way to go about this if there is a
Speaker 1: management issue. Because when I and my growing up, if
Speaker 1: you saw anything that had spikes on it, he shot
Speaker 1: at and that's everybody. So opening the fe season on
Speaker 1: public on state ground. I mean there's more than one
Speaker 1: time where I had you know, bullets pretty close to me. Right.
Speaker 1: There's one time where I shot a buck that had
Speaker 1: three holes in it or two holes in it or
Speaker 1: something like that. You know, and so, and it was
Speaker 1: a forky, right, and so when stuff like that starts
Speaker 1: to become a prevalent, then maybe there is time to
Speaker 1: do something. I can't pretend to be some expert in that,
Speaker 1: but I think minimum point restrictions are certainly something that
Speaker 1: sometimes could be like that gets that's like the the
Speaker 1: nasty debate on it right now is around aprs other
Speaker 1: point restrictions is kind of how people refer to them,
Speaker 1: and that is a case where we're getting some of
Speaker 1: this nastiness happening where there's a difference between like this
Speaker 1: could be a whole podcast itself. So I'm not sure
Speaker 1: we might go down this road right now we can
Speaker 1: briefly touch on. But it's it's a it's a weird
Speaker 1: quandary for me personally too, because like I personally would
Speaker 1: my personal goals would be more easily and I would
Speaker 1: enjoy things more more often in that specifically towards my
Speaker 1: own goals if APRS were in effect in the places
Speaker 1: I hunt, because having some kind of minimum point restriction
Speaker 1: and aniler point restriction does lead to more young bucks
Speaker 1: reaching older age classes, like It's been proven in many
Speaker 1: different cases. So can we just stop there our North
Speaker 1: American model of wildlife conservation says that are you know,
Speaker 1: animals are regulated and they're regulated by science and wildlife biology.
Speaker 1: So this isn't Let's let's be clear when when an
Speaker 1: a p R is put into effect, it's not put
Speaker 1: into effect to you know, by state legislatures, like it's
Speaker 1: not even tried to do that. Well, but I mean
Speaker 1: the folks in the state legislators, like it would be
Speaker 1: proposed by a wildlife biologist or a state game manager
Speaker 1: that believes that this is necessary for the health of
Speaker 1: the population. Is that So there's actually cases where hunter
Speaker 1: advocacy advocacy groups like people that actually just like hunters
Speaker 1: that really want there to be a p R s
Speaker 1: are actively Um We're like in Michigan, this is a
Speaker 1: huge thing and like I could like get crucified for
Speaker 1: coming out against it within my own state because people
Speaker 1: are so strongly for it, but then so strongly against it. Two,
Speaker 1: it's like a really hot item right now. Um, So
Speaker 1: there are people trying to get ballot in issues, and
Speaker 1: they're people showing up at NRC like National Resource Commission
Speaker 1: meetings and pushing for the DINA to do this. And
Speaker 1: so there are possibilities of suddenly these things being proposed
Speaker 1: and put out there, not just because of biologists I
Speaker 1: thought this was the right thing to do, but because
Speaker 1: hunter advocacy groups are saying, hey, this is the right
Speaker 1: thing to do, and they're trying to show that there
Speaker 1: showing evidence for it, and there is evidence to show
Speaker 1: it is the right thing to do in many cases,
Speaker 1: and for example in Pennsylvania, this was something that came
Speaker 1: from the biologists originally saying, hey, this is the right
Speaker 1: thing to do to deal with our issues. And so
Speaker 1: that's a combination of both, well that's and then and
Speaker 1: then that to say, you know, foll up on the
Speaker 1: point I was just making. I think it's you know,
Speaker 1: when you're looking at local tune of populations, you go
Speaker 1: as the tune of fishermen. I mean, there's empirical evidence
Speaker 1: that they have that that biologists just don't have. Right,
Speaker 1: So there is some credence to hunter groups saying, look,
Speaker 1: we we are we're around these animals, we hunt them.
Speaker 1: There are less we got together said there are less
Speaker 1: quality or less in total population. Right. So that's not
Speaker 1: not to say that that's you know, totally um defunct
Speaker 1: way to go about this but at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, it has to be an ingredience with with
Speaker 1: state game biotists. And it comes down to you see
Speaker 1: this across Western states in different places, like many states,
Speaker 1: state wildife agencies have to make a decision between managing
Speaker 1: for opportunity or quality. So is this going to be
Speaker 1: a state where there's been lots and lots of deer
Speaker 1: so that you can go out there and you can
Speaker 1: shoot a deer tons of them, or do we manage
Speaker 1: for a more balanced quality quote unquote heard, which UM
Speaker 1: many people would argue is like the better choice from
Speaker 1: up pure science standpoint. UM. It also though, leads to
Speaker 1: a better situation from a big deer standpoint. So you
Speaker 1: get people coming to it from both sides. You've got
Speaker 1: people that want big deer and they're not really care
Speaker 1: about the other things, but they do like there are
Speaker 1: those people that really want the big deer, and so
Speaker 1: they really pushed for this. UM. So the issue then becomes,
Speaker 1: are we doing what we talked about in reverse where
Speaker 1: we're applying our personal goals if we're if it's if
Speaker 1: we're trying to make the point or the argument for
Speaker 1: outside of the science, if we're saying Hey, I want
Speaker 1: more mature bucks. I want to see more big deer.
Speaker 1: That would be fun. The things that happen outside in
Speaker 1: the woods when there's more mature excuse me, more mature bucks.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of different things that happen when you've
Speaker 1: get mature bucks in the population that I personally think
Speaker 1: are really exciting and great to see. Explain what those are,
Speaker 1: because I think for the most part, the voices that
Speaker 1: people here like pushing for a p r S are
Speaker 1: those who want like a cultural shift and just kill
Speaker 1: bigger deer. Uh, but not many people are aware of,
Speaker 1: like what the herd benefits are. So explain that. So
Speaker 1: so a few things. There's a few things, like like
Speaker 1: from a hunter standpoint, you would enjoy different experiences in
Speaker 1: the woods. For example, when you go from place like
Speaker 1: Michigan where they're relatively not many mature bucks, to a
Speaker 1: place like Iowa, where there are relatively higher numbers of
Speaker 1: mature bucks. When I first started hunting in Iowa, I
Speaker 1: never heard a buck run in the wild. I never
Speaker 1: had heard of snort we's in the wealth. All my
Speaker 1: experiences in Michigan, I've never seen bucks fight in the
Speaker 1: wild in Michigan, I've seen very little actually chasing like
Speaker 1: extreme running behavior. All these things are much rarer to
Speaker 1: see in an area, whether they or not, where there's
Speaker 1: not a relatively balanced herd because it's not as much competition,
Speaker 1: there's not as many mature bucks that are the ones
Speaker 1: who demonstrate that kind of behavior. So from a pure
Speaker 1: like wildlife hunting experience, having a balanced older age class,
Speaker 1: you get to see a lot of things that naturally
Speaker 1: happen in the white tailed world that you do not
Speaker 1: get to see in a place where there's no old. Dear,
Speaker 1: it's a very unnatural thing to be hunting in a
Speaker 1: stretch of landscape where there's fifteen females and five or
Speaker 1: six bucks and they're all one year old. That's not
Speaker 1: a natural thing in the world. But that's pretty that's
Speaker 1: the case in many states. So when you flip it
Speaker 1: around and you go to Iowa where all these are
Speaker 1: these mature bucks, you get to see and experience a
Speaker 1: lot of things that are natural and exciting as a hunter. Now,
Speaker 1: as far as benefits to the hurt itself, there are
Speaker 1: many benefits to um Harder to articulate without getting into
Speaker 1: a bunch of wonky science stuff, but damn science. But
Speaker 1: one one simple thing that is easy to point to.
Speaker 1: When you have older mature bucks, you've got a more
Speaker 1: natural rut. You don't never a rut that is tight.
Speaker 1: So by that, I mean you're gonna have a period
Speaker 1: of time when most females come into estra's and are
Speaker 1: ready to breed, and most of that breeding happens within
Speaker 1: that tight time window. That's gonna happen more often when
Speaker 1: you have a balanced age structure. When you have a
Speaker 1: very unbalanced age structure, you're gonna start to see situations
Speaker 1: where dolls will be bright over the course of a
Speaker 1: much longer period of time. When that happens when does
Speaker 1: are being bred from early October through late December, and
Speaker 1: you've got all those pregnant dose brought out of course
Speaker 1: that time period in the spring, when these deers start
Speaker 1: giving birth, you've got fawns dropping over the course of
Speaker 1: a long period of time. So you've got fawns dropping
Speaker 1: really early, you've got fawns dropping really late. There's issues
Speaker 1: across the board with that. You get early drop fawonds,
Speaker 1: You're getting fawns hitting the ground when it's too cold,
Speaker 1: there's too much snow, so a lot of fauns time.
Speaker 1: When you've got fawns that are getting dropped too late
Speaker 1: in the spring, you've got fawnds now they are gonna
Speaker 1: be too young by the time the next winter comes along,
Speaker 1: so they won't be able to be as healthy and
Speaker 1: as mature as they need to be to make it
Speaker 1: to the winter. And then secondly, when you have a
Speaker 1: bunch of fawns spread out over a long period of time,
Speaker 1: predators can very easily, over the course of two months
Speaker 1: or something kill the five funds that are here now
Speaker 1: and the five fonds that are here next week, and
Speaker 1: the five funds are here next week, and very easily
Speaker 1: hammer a fawn population. So this is so the opposite.
Speaker 1: What actually happens in a balance hurt is predator swamping.
Speaker 1: Where Ellen, my hot tip off word or whatever is so.
Speaker 1: What happens in the natural, dear herd is that when
Speaker 1: you have mature animals, when you have a balanced, relatively
Speaker 1: natural herd, you're gonna get tight rut. The tight red
Speaker 1: is gonna lead to a tight fon drop where all
Speaker 1: fonds or the vast majority of fonds will all drop
Speaker 1: within a tight window. So imagine how much harder it
Speaker 1: would be for a predator population to kill all of
Speaker 1: the let's just say, twenty fonds if they all dropped
Speaker 1: within a five day window, versus how much more difficult
Speaker 1: or how much easier it would be for them to
Speaker 1: kill all those twenty fonds if it was spread over
Speaker 1: the course of two months. But by then, I mean like,
Speaker 1: OKAYO is not gonna kill twenty fonds in two days,
Speaker 1: because he's gonna have his one and that's gonna take
Speaker 1: him for a couple of days and then etcetera, etcetera.
Speaker 1: So there's a whole bunch of benefits like that that
Speaker 1: just then lead to, you know, like a trickled on effect.
Speaker 1: It sounds like we need to get out of our
Speaker 1: own way here, Like in which one when you start
Speaker 1: to say that hunters are well personally, I'd love more
Speaker 1: big bucks to be around. Okay, great, that's not how
Speaker 1: it works. That's not how it's purported to work. At
Speaker 1: least there has to be more evidence, right, But it
Speaker 1: sounds like what you're saying is there's more evidence suggest
Speaker 1: that your desire for big bucks aligns with the best
Speaker 1: way to manage a deer herd. And you know another
Speaker 1: thing that a lot of people, don't, uh make a
Speaker 1: point about when you look at the bastardization of QTM
Speaker 1: is a lot of people when it comes to QTM
Speaker 1: that the folks who aren't really looking at the holistic
Speaker 1: approach there and say past young bucks, shoot big bucks.
Speaker 1: But they forget a big part of actual quality deer
Speaker 1: management is the fact that we are trying to manage
Speaker 1: a deer herd to the correct care and capacity to
Speaker 1: the habitat. It's a really important thing because if you
Speaker 1: don't do that, there's too many deer for the habitat.
Speaker 1: You've got very unhealthy deer. You've got deer that are
Speaker 1: not you know, all sorts, I mean, the whole bunch.
Speaker 1: So many things that comes in, right, I mean, the
Speaker 1: economic thing comes in, where the more hunters we have,
Speaker 1: the more money we have to manage the wildlife. Right.
Speaker 1: So if we're saying you can only kill big bucks,
Speaker 1: you're likely going to have you're you're gonna have less hunters.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're telling young young kids, you guys
Speaker 1: sit here and wait for a big buck, it changes
Speaker 1: their experience. Right, So you have this conundrum that says
Speaker 1: you can't I mean, if we want to and it's
Speaker 1: crossbows the same way too, Like you want to have
Speaker 1: more hunters, you would want to have crossbows allowed. I
Speaker 1: mean that's just to me. That's that's pretty common sense
Speaker 1: related related common sense. So you have that, but you
Speaker 1: also have how many people live in a state. Right,
Speaker 1: There's way more people that live in Michigan than live
Speaker 1: in Iowa. Um multiple times more. There's three eleven thousand
Speaker 1: bow hunters in Michigan compared to I think fifty seven thousand.
Speaker 1: A yeah, and so there I think there's there's millions
Speaker 1: of people. There's like seven million people more that live
Speaker 1: in Michigan than live in Iowa. Well, how I know that, um? So,
Speaker 1: let me so and guarantee there are more dear in
Speaker 1: the state of Michigan than there are in the state
Speaker 1: of Iowa. They're all probably I don't I'm sure of that.
Speaker 1: I'm sure of that. Um I don't know the exact
Speaker 1: numbers either, but I'm sure of that, and I'll look
Speaker 1: I can look it up here. But so you you
Speaker 1: have to understand the cohabitation elements and the economic elements
Speaker 1: and the variables for for how much land there are,
Speaker 1: how much caring capacity is there, and so I think
Speaker 1: boiling it down to like, I just want more Big
Speaker 1: Bucks so I can have a better experience. It's like, look, man, great,
Speaker 1: good for you, but that's not how this works. The
Speaker 1: democracy of wildlife doesn't work for you. That works for
Speaker 1: all of us. And that's how that's how this is.
Speaker 1: And so any advocacy group that says we're arguing for
Speaker 1: this so we can have a better experience, is I
Speaker 1: think hurting the cause, which seems to be buttressed by
Speaker 1: the science, butchers by the wildlife management philosophy. No, the thing,
Speaker 1: the cow that would be with us. Some of these
Speaker 1: organizations are pointing to the science. If you're pointing to
Speaker 1: the side, Yeah, yeah, I'm saying if if there's ever,
Speaker 1: if anybody ever stands up and says, look, I'm in
Speaker 1: the woods and I'm seeing what big Bucks, and I
Speaker 1: really would rather stay home, So please change the regulator
Speaker 1: put in an APR so I can have a better
Speaker 1: experience with my kids, can have a better experience of
Speaker 1: more big box. Like, yeah, that's your value, that's your
Speaker 1: value proposition. That's not everybody. Yeah. The problem is that
Speaker 1: both of those two things are happen at the same time, right,
Speaker 1: Like the science supports in many cases, but then you
Speaker 1: also have the emotional argument that a lot of these
Speaker 1: people have, which is what gave them the passion to
Speaker 1: really want to push for the science because because it
Speaker 1: is like the personal experience, Like let's not sit here
Speaker 1: and pretend like our experiences don't drive the choices that
Speaker 1: we make, Like, of course we want to have a
Speaker 1: better hunting experience if that's something you love and whatnot.
Speaker 1: It's just how do you go about it and how
Speaker 1: do you try to implement it? And um. The interesting
Speaker 1: thing is that I don't know the exact numbers, but
Speaker 1: in I think in almost every case where the a
Speaker 1: p R has been applied, whether it be in the
Speaker 1: northwest part of Michigan or in Pennsylvania other places I
Speaker 1: think Missouri to UM. Usually first it's very contentious, but
Speaker 1: like leading out to it's very contentious. After a few
Speaker 1: years of being around, satisfaction is like very high. So
Speaker 1: usually people really like it, but there's still like there's
Speaker 1: still a portion that doesn't. So the question is, then
Speaker 1: what's more important is it? Is it? If we're looking
Speaker 1: at satisfaction, how a number one? How important hunter satisfaction
Speaker 1: versus just the pure science of it. And then number two,
Speaker 1: do you make your decision because sixty seven percent of
Speaker 1: folks are satisfied with that and you say, well a
Speaker 1: significant majority approves, or do you look at and say, well,
Speaker 1: but then we're leaving tent or whatever it is that
Speaker 1: aren't happy with it and really full under satisfaction. Right,
Speaker 1: this is not how our conservation model works. It works
Speaker 1: on does the science and biologies say that this is
Speaker 1: the best thing for the animal. But in Michigan they're
Speaker 1: looking at hunter satisfaction to help make those decisions like
Speaker 1: to be And again that gives back to the economics likely, right,
Speaker 1: So if you said, like, we're we're upsetting all the
Speaker 1: hunters are not gonna come hunt anymore, we're the stake Again.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know what the percentage is for Michigan,
Speaker 1: but roughly sixty at sixty of um revenues from that
Speaker 1: are coming into state game agencies are from hundred dollars, right,
Speaker 1: So I could see why they're considering that. I'm not
Speaker 1: the fun but but but the only real way to
Speaker 1: to weigh this out is to say, how do we
Speaker 1: how do we best manage for how they heard of
Speaker 1: animals here and a p rs aren't always like the
Speaker 1: answer because as far as big buck stakes states go
Speaker 1: out of the top ten like Boom and Crockett white
Speaker 1: Tail states, nine of them do not have any aprs.
Speaker 1: So it's not like it's mandatory that you haven't have
Speaker 1: an APR, or it's always going to turn you know,
Speaker 1: Michigan into Iowa, whatever might be. But I think Mississippi
Speaker 1: is a good example. They introduced aprs and within a
Speaker 1: few years, like I think last year they had the
Speaker 1: highest percentage of mature bucks being three and a half
Speaker 1: year olds being killed in the country in a big
Speaker 1: reason where those aprs now, it's how hard to gauge,
Speaker 1: like how many hunts that room for people that we're
Speaker 1: out and otherwise would have shot at young deer whatever
Speaker 1: that might be. But I think you made a good
Speaker 1: point that like at some point it becomes accepted and
Speaker 1: everyone is more satisfied, Like a decade from now, our
Speaker 1: generation from now, people would be happier that those aprs are.
Speaker 1: They're no different than like if you had a lake
Speaker 1: with a bunch of walleye in it and there was
Speaker 1: no regulations on take or size, and someone put a
Speaker 1: slot in you know, there'd be a bunch of pushback,
Speaker 1: but down the road everyone will probably be more satisfied. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's a short and long term, but I
Speaker 1: mean it is a messy situation where you're when you're
Speaker 1: relying on hundred dollars to manage the herd. Right, So
Speaker 1: now you've connected those two things which we have done
Speaker 1: and too too great success. I mean, there's more white
Speaker 1: tailtier now than ever, so we can't complain about that.
Speaker 1: But you'd say, like we've connected the hundred dollar to
Speaker 1: the management of the game or how we spend to
Speaker 1: manage the game. So you've connected those two things, you know,
Speaker 1: without understanding impacts of those. Right. So if it's all
Speaker 1: about you know, if it's all about healthy herds, how
Speaker 1: are you gonna pay for him? Well, hunters gotta be happy,
Speaker 1: they gotta be coming at the gates, man, they're gonna
Speaker 1: be going through the turnstiles. Um. So there's there's no
Speaker 1: wonder it's contentious. And what's even making things more difficult
Speaker 1: though now, is that there's become such a disconnect in
Speaker 1: many states between that agency and the hunter population and
Speaker 1: animosity in many cases that now the hunters don't even
Speaker 1: believe that the wildlife agencies have their best interests or
Speaker 1: the herd's best interest in mind anymore. So that's it's
Speaker 1: becoming a thin Michigan between a p R S and
Speaker 1: then this whole C deputy thing. You're seeing this all
Speaker 1: across the country, a lot of people all sorts of
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories now these days about how these agencies are
Speaker 1: in cahoots with such companies. It's just a money grab
Speaker 1: and you're hearing a lot of really crazy stuff. So
Speaker 1: an agency can't even make the case for a change
Speaker 1: like this based off pier science because hunters won't even
Speaker 1: believe it. Though. That's that's tough man, that's you know,
Speaker 1: that's a honor the thing think about. But I appreciate
Speaker 1: the breakdown of that because I think it's something everybody
Speaker 1: should understand. You know that we were we're so entangled
Speaker 1: with this process as hunters. We fund it mostly at
Speaker 1: least partially funded. Um it impacts all of us. We
Speaker 1: want to have these broad, sweeping statements, like you said,
Speaker 1: we want everybody to be able to have the greatest
Speaker 1: time they want to have. That's real, warm and fuzzy,
Speaker 1: but sometimes that doesn't stand up to the reality of
Speaker 1: what's happening with cohabitation, the economy, and healthy wildlife populations
Speaker 1: carrying cassy. So sometimes not everybody can have the warm
Speaker 1: and fuzzy time outdoors and just go have fun. Sometimes
Speaker 1: you have to make sacrifices, UM, for the future of
Speaker 1: of that we say all this, I think it's important
Speaker 1: to like set back and you know, recognize that we're
Speaker 1: in the golden age of white tail hunting. Like you said,
Speaker 1: there were more white tails than ever before. UM. There
Speaker 1: were more mature bucks killed than ever before. There were
Speaker 1: less yearling deer killed than ever before. UM. As far
Speaker 1: as like ratio, yes, yeah, I think it's of three
Speaker 1: and a half year olds made up the deer harvested
Speaker 1: in UM. Whereas that that's the highest it's ever been. Lowest, Look,
Speaker 1: no mature bucks. There were more mature bucks than ever
Speaker 1: before killed. Sorry I thought you were from confusing you
Speaker 1: and myself and numbers. You're right. So of the total harvest,
Speaker 1: it's on power of the lowest it's ever been. As
Speaker 1: far as what percentage one and a half year olds
Speaker 1: to make of the over harvest, and it's at the
Speaker 1: highest three and a half are older have ever made up. Yeah, So,
Speaker 1: like we discussed all this and it's important to recognize
Speaker 1: that this is the best that deer hunting has ever been. Yeah, yep,
Speaker 1: we'll end on that the best that deer hunting has
Speaker 1: ever been. Well, maybe we'll title the podcast that. Thank
Speaker 1: you boys, thank you, Thanks. That's it. That's all another
Speaker 1: episode of The Hunting Collective in the books. Thanks to
Speaker 1: Mark and spend there for sitting down. I feel like
Speaker 1: these dudes are we coming huge voices in the white
Speaker 1: tail space. Leaders in that space, voices for reason, guys
Speaker 1: willing obviously tackle some tough topics. Big Bucks little Bucks
Speaker 1: lover likes things like that that interests me. So thanks
Speaker 1: for entertaining me voice, and we'll have you back on
Speaker 1: real soon. One other big thing to get to here
Speaker 1: is that we're gonna be launching a new format the
Speaker 1: next episode of The Hunting Collectives. This format will allow
Speaker 1: for a little more timeliness. We're gonna have a segment
Speaker 1: of the show before the interview portion, where me and
Speaker 1: a guest from met Eater talk about what's going on
Speaker 1: in our world news and events, answer questions from you
Speaker 1: guys from previous episodes, and talk about what's generally Aico said,
Speaker 1: what's going on in our world. Then we're gonna follow
Speaker 1: that up with a prerecorded interview, and then we're gonna
Speaker 1: have some new segments, some pretty cool new segments. One
Speaker 1: of those you might have heard in the previous podcast
Speaker 1: as I tested amount, but one of them is called
Speaker 1: hots by Cool Dude, Cool Lady. And that's where I
Speaker 1: try to convince all these wonderful guests to give me
Speaker 1: their favorite hunting spots and share them with all of you. See,
Speaker 1: that's a public service, that's what that really is. We
Speaker 1: got some other things called where people are gonna share
Speaker 1: with us u near death experiences in the outdoors, and
Speaker 1: a bunch of other cool ideas that we're gonna be
Speaker 1: bringing back consistently on the show. We'll have some new music,
Speaker 1: hopefully you can tune in next week to hear that
Speaker 1: new music, and just a new way of putting together
Speaker 1: our show. So hopefully it's a it's a better program
Speaker 1: for you people. Everyone that has downloaded, we're at about
Speaker 1: a million downloads thus far in fifty four episodes, So
Speaker 1: thank you so much to everybody that has downloaded and
Speaker 1: listened and spend all your time with us. It means
Speaker 1: the world to me. I can't thank you all enough,
Speaker 1: and it's just important for me to continue to get
Speaker 1: better with this program. So with all that being said,
Speaker 1: sending your feedback. Hit me up with the d MS
Speaker 1: on Instagram. Email me, tell me what you think about
Speaker 1: this new format, give us your feedback. We're going to
Speaker 1: do our best to continue to get better, to always
Speaker 1: change and always adapt to what's going on in our world,
Speaker 1: what's going on in the podcast world. So hopefully you
Speaker 1: tune in next Tuesday, April two, you're gonna hear from
Speaker 1: Cameron Haynes on the Adam Green Troop poach in case.
Speaker 1: I talked about that case with Ryan Callahan. We talked
Speaker 1: about Ryan Callahan's biggest surprise of his media life, surprise
Speaker 1: announcement from Ryan Callahan, and we're gonna talk about his
Speaker 1: love life and a little show called The Bachelor as well.
Speaker 1: So a lot of cool stuff coming up next week.
Speaker 1: Please tune in and we'll see you then for the
Speaker 1: new format of The Hunting Plex. Bye.