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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. We've waited for months

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Speaker 1: now trying to understand the dynamics of the injuries that

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Speaker 1: were sustained by Paul and Maggie Murdoch, and as it

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Speaker 1: turns out, they're as brutal as we expected them. And

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Speaker 1: today we want to try to understand exactly how their

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Speaker 1: depths came about, the sequencing of the injuries that they sustained,

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Speaker 1: and precisely how long did it take for them to die.

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Speaker 1: Today I'm taping from Hollywood, California, so the sound is

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Speaker 1: going to be a bit different than normal, but I

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Speaker 1: felt the need to hop on here and wake of

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Speaker 1: doctor Riemer's testimony in the trial. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan

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Speaker 1: and this is Bodybags. Joining me today is Dave Mack,

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Speaker 1: reporter with Crime Online. Dave, as I mentioned in the opening,

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Speaker 1: we've been waiting some time now for the testimony of

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Speaker 1: the forensic pathologists and here we have it before us.

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Speaker 1: It certainly sent a shockwave through that courthouse.

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Speaker 2: The lead up to testimony of doctor Allen Riemer. As

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Speaker 2: you mentioned, this is the one thing that people have

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Speaker 2: really been waiting for. Alec Murdau is on trial for

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Speaker 2: the murders of his wife and son. So, Maggie and Paul,

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Speaker 2: they were both murdered on Gen seven, twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 2: I'm Murdau property. They were both murdered within minutes of

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Speaker 2: one another there, and they were both murdered with different weapons.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot to unpack here. Doctor Reamer was testifying

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Speaker 2: about the wounds to Maggie and Paul. As we begin,

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Speaker 2: I have to ask you a very specific question. I thought,

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Speaker 2: we're at trial, you're going to showus pictures. We're going

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Speaker 2: to see the pictures of everything that's going on with

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Speaker 2: Paul and Maggie Murdac and what they did. First though,

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Speaker 2: doctor Riemer used posterboards of male and female diagrams. Why

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Speaker 2: would that happen, Joe.

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Speaker 1: When we look at autopsy photography. First off, for those

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Speaker 1: that are not familiar with the trauma at all, And

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Speaker 1: keep in mind, this is being used as a descriptor

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Speaker 1: as an illustrative aid for a jury that is comprised

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Speaker 1: of layman. Maybe there's a nurse on there, maybe somebody

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Speaker 1: served as an EMT at some point in tom But

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Speaker 1: when you begin to get it into this find of detail,

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Speaker 1: when you're talking about trauma. It looks like somebody's nightmare,

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Speaker 1: you know, when you're looking at this tissue that's twisted

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Speaker 1: and blown apart, and you can't pick out specific anatomical landmarks.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of it goes to orientation, a lot

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Speaker 1: of it goes to the idea of the extent of

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Speaker 1: the trauma. And Dave, I got to tell you, I've

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Speaker 1: seen it done kind of both ways over the years.

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Speaker 1: I've seen people demonstrate with photography and then they fall

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Speaker 1: back to a diagram, an anatomical diagram, And those diagrams

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Speaker 1: that they're using in court are specifically blow ups of

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Speaker 1: what's used at autopsy, where you have a silhouette where

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Speaker 1: it's drawn out and you can kind of appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: But in this case they kind of flip the script.

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Speaker 1: They presented this thing in court and she's got these

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Speaker 1: two diagrams up on an easel. We go with Paul's first,

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Speaker 1: which these injuries are just beyond the pale when you

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Speaker 1: begin to consider we're talking about two shotgun blasts, and

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Speaker 1: so the jury is looking they're looking at these diagrams,

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Speaker 1: which are essentially kind of like outlines of bodies, and

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Speaker 1: they're seeing it from a clean perspective. Okay, So when

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Speaker 1: you see it from a clean perspective, and you can

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Speaker 1: begin to see, okay, well that's his shoulder, that's the

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Speaker 1: side of his head, that's his chest, this is his back,

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Speaker 1: all of that stuff, and you begin to see these

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Speaker 1: little defects because she's drawing with both a red and

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Speaker 1: a black marker. The red, I think was indicative of

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Speaker 1: entrance wounds, the black indicative of eggsit wounds. Suddenly the

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Speaker 1: jury has an orientation to anatomy here. Okay. Then it's

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Speaker 1: at that point in time, after she's gone through this,

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Speaker 1: she's talking about direction of fire, and she goes into

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Speaker 1: great detail about all of these elements. That's when the

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Speaker 1: prosecution introduces the graphic photographs, which you know, by all

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Speaker 1: of the descriptors from everyone to a person that was

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Speaker 1: in the court. They were so shocking when you compare

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Speaker 1: and contrast this. They put images up of Paul throughout

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Speaker 1: this case. They put images up of Maggie throughout this case.

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Speaker 1: People have seen it in the news, but now you

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Speaker 1: see what the real end result was. You see what

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Speaker 1: happens when somebody is shot with a shotgun and essentially

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Speaker 1: a high powered rifle it's not a matter of the

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Speaker 1: murdoal homicide. It's a matter of the murdle homicides plural.

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Speaker 1: We've got two, and you can only imagine that once

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Speaker 1: you make it through just one of these deaths Paul, namely,

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Speaker 1: that you're thinking, you know what I got to say,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I can take any more, but

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Speaker 1: you have to move on to Maggie then, and it

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Speaker 1: just it's insulting to the senses, I think, or probably

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Speaker 1: a better word is assaulting. They did go into great

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Speaker 1: detail in breaking these cases down, and whether you like

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Speaker 1: it or not, that's just the nature of what you

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Speaker 1: have to do in court when you're talking about homicides.

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Speaker 2: During the opening statements, the defense and prosecution both alluded

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Speaker 2: to the injuries, but in particular, the defense statement was

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Speaker 2: very graphic about what happened to Paul, about the second shot,

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Speaker 2: since you mentioned there too. You know, we've got Paul

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Speaker 2: and Maggie and looking at both of these one at

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Speaker 2: a time. It's believed that Paul was shot first. He

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Speaker 2: was shot twice, but he was the first of them

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Speaker 2: to be shot. The first was the shotgun blast to

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Speaker 2: the chest, and doctor Or testified that had Paul received

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Speaker 2: medical attention, he could have survived that shot. So what

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Speaker 2: kind of injuries are we looking at from the first

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Speaker 2: blast into Paul's chest.

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Speaker 1: This shotgun wound And there's a difference. And she actually

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Speaker 1: makes note of this on the stand because prosecution, when

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Speaker 1: they threw to her on the stand, mentioned the term

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Speaker 1: gunshot wound. And we have to understand that this is

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Speaker 1: not a gunshot Wound's a shotgun wound. And the reason

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Speaker 1: that is significantly different is it's a different type of ammunition.

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Speaker 1: Instead of just one singular projectile coming down range and

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Speaker 1: striking a target, you've got multiple projectiles. And in this case,

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Speaker 1: the first shotgun wound was actually from buckshot. So if

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Speaker 1: you think about this, this is the equivalent of sending

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Speaker 1: multiple thirty two caliber pellets into Paul's body. But you know, Dave, amazingly,

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Speaker 1: this was according to the forensic pathologists, this was a

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Speaker 1: survivable injury. Can you imagine that we're talking about the

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Speaker 1: first blast. It lines up so that when this weapon

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Speaker 1: is fired, it's fired into his right side essentially, or

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Speaker 1: into the right aspect of his chest, and travels across

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Speaker 1: the center of the body. People refer to this as

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Speaker 1: the media stynum, and it's traveling across the body and

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Speaker 1: exits out of what's called the left axilla. So if

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Speaker 1: folks at home will kind of lift their left arm

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Speaker 1: and the area just below your armpit, the pellets actually

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Speaker 1: pass through the left outer chest wall and back in

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Speaker 1: to his left arm and out of his left arm.

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Speaker 1: Not all of them. Not all of them did, because

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Speaker 1: with shotgun wound in particular, you don't retain a lot

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Speaker 1: of the energy that you do with a rifled projectile.

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Speaker 1: Where the bullet is spinning and it gets on target

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Speaker 1: and it passes through an area, the energy expends very quickly,

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Speaker 1: so you're not going to have all of the rounds

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Speaker 1: pass through at the same time. They'll stop. You can

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Speaker 1: actually over some of the pellets. That's why it's so

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Speaker 1: important that you do an X ray of the body

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Speaker 1: before the autopsy begins, so you can count how many

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Speaker 1: pellets you have, and depending upon the type of ammunition

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Speaker 1: that's being used, you will have a specific count of

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Speaker 1: pellets to expect to find, so you'll know that if

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Speaker 1: you're missing that number, it's either still in the body

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Speaker 1: or it's at the scene. The other thing that was

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Speaker 1: kind of curious that I talked about was the fact

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Speaker 1: that the watting was still in the body in this

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Speaker 1: particular case, and the watting is it's kind of like

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Speaker 1: it's a cup of Some people refer to this as

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Speaker 1: a shot cup and imagine a plastic sleeve with all

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Speaker 1: of the little pellets that go into it. And then

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Speaker 1: it's placed into the interior of the shot shell itself,

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Speaker 1: because like I said, there's no rifling. When this thing

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Speaker 1: is fired, that actual shot watting comes out and it

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Speaker 1: acts as kind of a container as it's traveling out

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Speaker 1: of the end of the barrel. The petals deployed and

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Speaker 1: it looks like a flower and it's got it contained outside,

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Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden it opens up and

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Speaker 1: there's this blast of these little projectiles that are traveling

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Speaker 1: through the air. And they actually recovered this shot cup

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Speaker 1: wadding there within his body. They were able to find it.

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Speaker 1: This was, according to her, a survivable injury. She talked

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Speaker 1: about how Paul would have gone to surgery, they would

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Speaker 1: have treated, stitched him up, debreded some of the wounds,

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Speaker 1: treated for potential infection, and it's amazing in such close

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Speaker 1: proximity as this weapon was fired, it didn't tear more

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Speaker 1: tissue up. He did sustain a contusion to his lung

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Speaker 1: because of this concussive blast, but it didn't compromise the

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Speaker 1: structural integrity of the lung. It would have still functioned.

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Speaker 1: It didn't harm the heart. That's kind of an interesting

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Speaker 1: perspective when you begin to think on it. But that

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Speaker 1: wasn't the only injury that he sustained. He actually had

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Speaker 1: one more day.

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Speaker 2: This shot that we heard about during the opening where

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Speaker 2: it was very descriptive of what happened on the second

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Speaker 2: shot to Paul's head. When I heard them describe this

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Speaker 2: during the opening statement, it was said that is shot,

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Speaker 2: his brain exploded out of his head, hit the ceiling,

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Speaker 2: and the brain landed at his feet.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that something? Pathologists have an interesting way of speaking

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Speaker 1: that many people are not used to. When she began

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Speaker 1: to describe specifically with her language, she used the term

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Speaker 1: day ejected. You think about pilots coming out of a

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Speaker 1: plane if they hit the ejection handle. That's actually what

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Speaker 1: happened the blast that he sustained, and it wasn't These

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Speaker 1: are not very well aimed shots, because if you're taking

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Speaker 1: the shotgun and pointing it at his head. Where are

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Speaker 1: you going to shoot him in the shoulder. Well, I

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Speaker 1: guess he's in motion because he's reacting to that first blast.

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Speaker 1: And you know, she even opined that he was still

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Speaker 1: in an upright position when the weapon was fired that

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Speaker 1: shot sequence was initiated. In the second shot, he was

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Speaker 1: still standing up and this blast traveled out of the barrel.

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Speaker 1: And this is not you know, we think about buckshot,

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Speaker 1: which he was shot with initially. That's generally something that

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Speaker 1: is commonly associated with a tremendous amount of trauma. A buckshot,

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Speaker 1: you know, you're talking about using The reason they talk

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Speaker 1: about buckshot and call it that is that you can

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Speaker 1: hunt a deer with it, okay, and you think you're

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Speaker 1: going to take it on a large animal this thing.

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Speaker 1: But it didn't do as much disruption as the second shot,

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Speaker 1: which was actually going to get this bird shot. So

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Speaker 1: when he struck, he struck in the shoulder. It passes

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Speaker 1: through his shoulder, winds up in the side of his neck,

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Speaker 1: and hits this large bone in the base of the

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Speaker 1: skull that interiorly it supports the It blew out the

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Speaker 1: right side of his head. Here's kind of another another

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Speaker 1: interesting little queue to this Dave is that they and

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Speaker 1: I think that this probably really caught people off guard,

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Speaker 1: is that they described removing Paul's brain from the scene

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Speaker 1: in a bucket. They just let that sink in just

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Speaker 1: a second, in a bucket. And she actually says that

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Speaker 1: when the body is received at the morgue, the brain

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Speaker 1: is in a bucket. Maybe the people that are sitting

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Speaker 1: in the jury box they can't understand some of the

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Speaker 1: fancy medical lingo, technical jargon. But then you think about this.

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Speaker 1: Everyone knows what buckets are used for collecting things, mopping,

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Speaker 1: but you're bringing his brain into the morgue in a bucket.

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Speaker 1: If Maggie is present when the shotgun blasts initiate and

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Speaker 1: this is her child, my goodness, what in the world

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Speaker 1: was going through her mind at that moment? Tom? Does

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Speaker 1: she have an awareness where she turns, she looks at

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Speaker 1: the sound. Maybe there's a yelp or scream that issues

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Speaker 1: forth from Paul. Does she even hear that? Does the

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Speaker 1: shooter say anything at that moment? In Tom, You've suddenly

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Speaker 1: got this just rain of tissue and blood that is

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Speaker 1: settling in this place. Not to mention, you know, the

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Speaker 1: smoke that's kind of rising up from this shotgun blast

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Speaker 1: that's taken place. There would even potentially be a smell

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Speaker 1: in this environment of burned gunpowder at that point in time.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Really, The dynamic for me is still

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Speaker 1: very confusing.

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Speaker 2: There was something said during opening statements. You know, we

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Speaker 2: heard the part of the brain being ejected, hitting the

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Speaker 2: the ceiling and landing back at Paul's feet, but there

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Speaker 2: was something else about that shot. Paul's face was left intact,

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Speaker 2: and I don't know how that's even possible, Joe.

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Speaker 1: In the vernacular that we've heard for years and years,

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Speaker 1: people will use terms like blowing heads clean off, are

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Speaker 1: blowing your face off, that sort of thing, and that's

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Speaker 1: really not the case. Things don't necessarily play out like

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Speaker 1: people suggest that they might. This is not like a

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Speaker 1: watermelon that you're firing at where the thing kind of

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Speaker 1: explodes like that. It doesn't happen. There's a level of

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Speaker 1: elasticity to the human skin. Now, every now and then

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Speaker 1: you'll have enough trauma where things will completely disintegrate. But

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Speaker 1: in this particular case, what she did describe, let's just

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Speaker 1: say just arbitrarily, he was laying there on the ground.

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Speaker 1: The blast did not involve his face to the extent

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Speaker 1: where his recognizable features were disrupted and it was concentrated

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Speaker 1: on the post air the backside of the head, which,

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Speaker 1: of course, as you and I have already stated, this

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Speaker 1: ejection took place, and you know, the brain essentially exited

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Speaker 1: the cranial vault, but his face would still be recognizable.

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Speaker 1: And one more thing, I'm glad you mentioned this because

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Speaker 1: I just got to think, and she was asked about

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Speaker 1: range of fire with Paul, and I think this plays

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Speaker 1: over into Maggie as well with her injuries. You know,

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Speaker 1: range of fire with Paul, he had stippling, and stippling

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Speaker 1: means that you've got gunpowder that is unburned, that is

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Speaker 1: coming out of the end of that muzzle and it's

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Speaker 1: essentially embedding into the skin at a very superficial level.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, if you took a cross

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Speaker 1: section of the skin where there is stippling or gunpowder,

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Speaker 1: you can actually see the gunpowder microscopically. You can see

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Speaker 1: it so clearly that you can make out if the

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Speaker 1: gunpowder is conical and shaped or it has a spherical

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Speaker 1: shaped to it or pyramiddle. Because every manufacturer uses a

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Speaker 1: different type of gunpowder and it's the way it's kind

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Speaker 1: of shaped out, if you will. So that was there,

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Speaker 1: but there was no soot, which means that soot arrives

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Speaker 1: from burning gunpowder. And if you're really close, like okay,

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Speaker 1: let's back up to the stippling. Stippling was relative to

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Speaker 1: range of fire. You think she's saying two to three

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Speaker 1: feet that that shotgun blast would deposit that unburned gunpowder

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Speaker 1: into the skin and kind of embed it. But yet

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Speaker 1: there's no soot. Soot essentially drifts away outside of about

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Speaker 1: eighteen inches. So when you're looking at this, you're thinking,

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Speaker 1: she can at least give us a theoretical construct here

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Speaker 1: about how far away then that muzzle was. And these

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Speaker 1: things are so dynamic you can't necessarily pin everything to it.

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Speaker 1: In this case, the weapon was not pressed directly to

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Speaker 1: the sights of entrance with Paul.

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Speaker 2: Were there any type of defensive wounds on Paul?

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Speaker 1: No, no, nothing that there's no indication. And that's a

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Speaker 1: fantastic question day because you think that if a young man,

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Speaker 1: and let's just suppose that it is somebody that is

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Speaker 1: within their family, okay, that's doing this. If somebody points

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Speaker 1: a weapon at you, you're going to fight them. You know,

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Speaker 1: that's just something regular people just don't do. You don't

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Speaker 1: take a weapon and point the muzzle at somebody. So

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Speaker 1: what does that tell us? That tells us that with Paul,

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Speaker 1: that there was not a level of awareness that this

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Speaker 1: was occurring, or he was being held at bay, you know,

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Speaker 1: at a distance. You know what I'm saying, Where there's

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Speaker 1: a distance from the end of that muzzle to his person,

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Speaker 1: all right, that he's not fighting, he's just like submitting

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Speaker 1: at that point. But the prosecutor says, were his hands

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Speaker 1: up at any point in time, No, they weren't. They weren't.

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Speaker 1: So you know, you think to somebody in a surrender

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Speaker 1: pose where they're putting their hands up above their head

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Speaker 1: to demonstrate that I don't have any weapons, I'm not

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Speaker 1: a threat, that's where that didn't happen.

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Speaker 2: Meanwhile, we've got Maggie to get to and her setup

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Speaker 2: is a totally different thing. You've got Maggie, probably here's

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Speaker 2: the first shot, moves towards the sound because to the

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Speaker 2: best of her knowledge, there's only Paul and Alec out there,

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Speaker 2: and so she moves towards it. It's an accident. Got

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Speaker 2: to figure out what's going on? The second shot would

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Speaker 2: send her running, and that's what was mentioned during opening

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Speaker 2: statements that she was running away. And as a matter

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Speaker 2: of fact, if I'm not mistaken, there was a question

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Speaker 2: about did she have any defensive wounds? Yes, she was

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Speaker 2: running away. And so when we get to Maggie's wounds

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Speaker 2: versus Paul's, we're looking at a totally different weapon.

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Speaker 1: How do you transition, O Dave? How do you transition?

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Speaker 1: In this particular case. My contention with this has been

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Speaker 1: that a shotgun is more than sufficient to render someone dead.

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Speaker 1: And it's a semi automatic shotgun. We know that, So

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Speaker 1: why would you initiate this sequence with a shotgun? Have

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Speaker 1: a rifle sequestered somewhere else, or maybe it's just laying

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Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe it's laying at the perpetrator's feet.

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Speaker 1: They go to the trouble to put the shotgun down,

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Speaker 1: retrieve the rifle, raise it at a target that is

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Speaker 1: moving away from them, and start the firing sequence, knowing

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Speaker 1: that there is a probability that you might miss. The

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Speaker 1: term scatter gun. They just don't use that term for

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Speaker 1: no reason. It's a scatter gun. It as it goes

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Speaker 1: out of the barrel that spreads out. And that's the

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Speaker 1: beauty of a shotgun is that even if you can't

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Speaker 1: aim well, you can impact a target with it, not

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Speaker 1: with this rifle. That's why they're talking about sequencing of

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Speaker 1: I don't remember, Dave. I think it's either four four

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Speaker 1: to five shots. I think that there was one where

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Speaker 1: they're talking about that there might be an entrance and

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Speaker 1: a re entry and that sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: Remer actually explained that Maggie Murdau's injuries, she had five

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Speaker 2: gunshot wounds from at least four gunshots, right.

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Speaker 1: And when you look at these injuries, you can actually

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Speaker 1: have around that will say, for instance, pass through one

335
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Speaker 1: anatomical area of the body exit and dependent upon position

336
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Speaker 1: that you're in, say that you're in a position of

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Speaker 1: submission where you're kind of bent at the wasst for instance,

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Speaker 1: and that round enters the body, it can actually pass through,

339
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Speaker 1: say and just throwing this out there, it passes through

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Speaker 1: the posterior chest, the back, exits the anterior chest, the front,

341
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Speaker 1: and then maybe re enters the abdomen. That happens, and

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Speaker 1: the reason it happens, particularly with a right is because

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Speaker 1: there's so much muzzle velocity involved in this thing. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is a robust round that we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: One thing that I think of when I think of

346
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Speaker 2: a rifle is shooting from a bit of a distance.

347
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Speaker 2: But in this case, there was stippling around Maggie Murdaw's wounds.

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Speaker 2: This is what kind of shocked me. I really wanted

349
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Speaker 2: to ask you because the first two shots apparently have

350
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Speaker 2: been fired within three feet a yardstick, that's it. And

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Speaker 2: he's got a rifle.

352
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Speaker 1: Yeah, how do you transition? How do you transition? I

353
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Speaker 1: keep asking that question. How do you go from a

354
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Speaker 1: shotgun which is and it's not what they're opining is

355
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Speaker 1: even though they don't have it. They're not suggesting that

356
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Speaker 1: this is like a tactical shotgun. It's got like a

357
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 1: short barrel. They're not actually talking about that. They're implying

358
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Speaker 1: that this is a shotgun that would be used to

359
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Speaker 1: hunt with. And you want a long barrel. These have

360
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Speaker 1: a long barrel, okay, because it improve your aim. You've

361
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Speaker 1: got this robust shotgun here in your hands. You're going

362
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Speaker 1: to fire this thing and then after you fired it

363
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Speaker 1: and probably not emptied it, because you know, the shotgun

364
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Speaker 1: depended upon the configuration it can hold five, maybe even

365
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Speaker 1: six rounds. Well, you've only fired two times out of it,

366
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Speaker 1: so you're going to put this thing down. Pick up

367
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Speaker 1: a rifle, which, as you mentioned, is a rifle that

368
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Speaker 1: is set up to fire at great distances. You know,

369
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Speaker 1: you think about like a and it's not the same,

370
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Speaker 1: but a five point five six also in civilian caliber

371
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Speaker 1: two to three, which approximates what our military uses. Okay,

372
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Speaker 1: the M four carband, you think about that, and it's

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Speaker 1: good up to three hundred yards away day. I mean,

374
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Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, it's at a great distance. This is

375
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Speaker 1: a three hundred blackout. This is a more robust round.

376
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Speaker 1: The diameter of it's bigger, it's it's closer to it's

377
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,159
Speaker 1: not a three eight, but it's closer in diameter to

378
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 1: a three toheros. It's more robust, and say what our

379
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 1: military carries. And it's still got a great reach to it.

380
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 1: But it's used as a tactical weapon where you can

381
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 1: go into the thing. You can fire at great distances,

382
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: but you can also utilize it if you're sweeping a

383
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 1: room in the military, or say with the police and

384
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 1: a swat team. It doesn't have a long, long barrel

385
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 1: linked most of the time. Sometimes it will, but most

386
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: time it's more compact. So again we go back to

387
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 1: the utility. What were they thinking this perpetrator, What were

388
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 1: they thinking in this particular case. It just it boggles

389
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Speaker 1: the mind as far as I'm concerned.

390
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 2: And so you've got the first two shots fired within

391
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Speaker 2: three feet. Maggie apparently goes down. She's on her knees,

392
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Speaker 2: and according to doctor Reemer, shot fired into Maggie's admin

393
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Speaker 2: while she's standing causes her to lean over and fall forward.

394
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Speaker 2: She's on her knees. Two fatal shots to the head.

395
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Speaker 2: She's on her hands and knees, and now are going

396
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Speaker 2: to kill a shot?

397
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, not one, but two. And Dave, the fact that

398
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 1: you mentioned the nature of this gunshot wound to the

399
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 1: abdomen is it's important to understand this and gonna I'm

400
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: gonna definitely understate this and do a disservice to this.

401
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 1: So forgive me in advance. This would have been like

402
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: getting hit in the abdomen with a ten pound sledgehammer

403
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: swung by a three hundred pound man. All right, So

404
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 1: when she contracts like this and goes to the ground,

405
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: she's in a position where she's non ambulatory. She's not moving,

406
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,679
Speaker 1: she's had the wind knocked out of her. At this

407
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 1: point in time, I mean, can you imagine the horror

408
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 1: at this point because she is alive at this point

409
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: in time, there's an awareness. I keep going back to

410
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 1: that term, there's an awareness of what's going on. You

411
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 1: mentioned the proverbial coup de gras two gunshot wounds to

412
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Speaker 1: the head with a high velocity weapon, and we it's

413
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 1: some sense of the dynamics of these injuries. And you

414
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: hear the term defect in pathology. They're not talking about

415
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 1: like something like a defective instrument or something. Defect actually

416
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 1: means an opening or a whole, so they'll say or

417
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 1: it's an injury, So instead of saying gunshot women, they'll

418
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: say defect. So you've got a series of defects that

419
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: are in the body where she's trying rumors, trying to

420
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,439
Speaker 1: make sense. And this brings us back to what we

421
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 1: had said earlier. If it's this difficult for the forensic

422
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,400
Speaker 1: pathologist to kind of figure out the sequence in any

423
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 1: of these wounds, and I think this is kind of

424
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 1: an interesting point. How much more difficult is it going

425
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: to be for a jury, because this is put it frankly,

426
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: it's a damn mess. I mean it truly is. This

427
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,160
Speaker 1: is not like a single gunshot woman. So you've got

428
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,719
Speaker 1: all these different injuries that are kind of communicating with

429
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 1: each other entrances and exits and re entrances, and it's

430
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: very complex and complicated. That's why you need a forensic pathology.

431
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: Just it's not only technically sound. I think she's done

432
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: like fifty five hundred autopsies by her own admission, but

433
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 1: she's having to draw this out. And that's the beauty

434
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 1: of this, if there can be anything to that. The

435
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: beauty of it is that she's able to communicate effectively

436
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,959
Speaker 1: with a jury. Use these diagrams and show it, because

437
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: it's like, you're looking at the diagrams right now, and

438
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: I think you'd agree with me, Dave. Those diagrams are

439
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 1: stark white. You know when you see those images in

440
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: a court that all of a sudden, they're about to

441
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: get their senses blasted because they're going to see bloody

442
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 1: gore is what they're going to see. And how do

443
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 1: you make sense of that?

444
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 2: But one thing that doctor Reimer pointed out is that

445
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 2: either of the headshots would have been fatal the moment

446
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 2: it happened. Is this a sense of overkilled? That there

447
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 2: were two shots to the head, the second shot going

448
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,120
Speaker 2: straight down the top of her head and coming out

449
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 2: her shoulder.

450
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: I think that it is. That's a very interesting point

451
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: in this. You know, we think about overkill most of

452
00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: the time, and we've talked about it on bodybags before,

453
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 1: or that people overkill with a blunt object, people overkill

454
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: with sharp force, injuries with an edged weapon, and there's

455
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 1: a there's kind of the sense that they're trying to

456
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: disfigure people, you know what I'm saying, where they're just

457
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: going in and brutalizing somebody. I don't know that. And

458
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: again I am not a forensic psychologist. I don't want

459
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,120
Speaker 1: to be a forensic psychologist. If we pull this over

460
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 1: to overkill, I don't know if it's if it is

461
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: overkilled or if it is a flourish if it's like

462
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: being overly engaged in this event, and you want assurance

463
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: that this individual is deceased, because here's the real indicator here.

464
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: This is not like you brought a nine millimeter pistol

465
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: and you shot somebody in the head. Day. You have

466
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: brought a weapon, the shotgun first off, but this three

467
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: hundred blackout. You've brought this three hundred blackout, which is

468
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 1: a way up and that the murder hogs were known

469
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: to use to hunt hogs with. Wild hogs are some

470
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: of the most ferocious animals that are out there. Why

471
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: do you need that much? Why is it? Well, it

472
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: either is you're trying to make a point by being

473
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: over the top with it, okay, or it's what you know.

474
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: It's what you're familiar with. Because there are guns all

475
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: in that house, we know that they used them to

476
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: hunt with, and it's certainly something that they had at

477
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: their disposal as of a state. The Myrtau trial continues.

478
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: We'll see what happens in the coming days. We'll see

479
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: what else presents itself, what other evidence is put forth

480
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: by not just the prosecution, but by the defense as well.

481
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs.

482
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 2: Oh