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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: the show. A fellow Ridiculous Historians thinks again, as always,

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Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. Let's hear it for our

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Speaker 1: super producer, Max Apocalypto Williams.

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Speaker 2: Gonna be a Clason? Did they play Clackson's one.

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Speaker 1: Bit of a bit of a bit of a doom Bringer? Williams?

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Speaker 3: Oh, gosh, Clason is just it's just like an alarm, right,

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Speaker 3: classic class Clackson nixt.

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Speaker 2: I definitely a claxon in the soundhout library.

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Speaker 1: We've got some weird end of the year energy, folks.

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Speaker 1: I am as always thrilled to introduce you yet again

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Speaker 1: to the one and only mister Nole Brown, mister nol

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Speaker 1: Copenhagen Brown. Yeah, hello, Ben.

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Speaker 3: You know it's funny that you should say that I

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Speaker 3: did just return from the land of Christmas of Santa Claus.

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Speaker 3: I went to Denmark and venture Yes and d Lego

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Speaker 3: to see the band Radiohead, and I've had their song

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Speaker 3: Idiotech stuck in my head on a loop. In the

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Speaker 3: first lyrics to that song are Who's in a Bunker?

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Speaker 3: Who's in a Bunker? Women and children first and a

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Speaker 3: children first, and a children first, and sadly that song

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Speaker 3: in my head was all I was going to get

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Speaker 3: because they canceled the concert that I went there for

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Speaker 3: because old Tommy Yorke had a little bit of a

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Speaker 3: seasonal soretquoat, and the second and third of the run

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Speaker 3: of shows in Denmark were not canceled, but mine was.

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Speaker 1: But it was still a lovely trip, lovely solo adventure,

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Speaker 1: wonderful to hear they called me ben Bowling, and folks,

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Speaker 1: we're glad to hear that is in recovery from his

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Speaker 1: sore throat.

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Speaker 3: I don't mean to be dismissed if it was categorized

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Speaker 3: as a severe throat infection, which if you're a singer,

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Speaker 3: anyone knows how terrifying and debilitating that must be. And

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Speaker 3: I know they didn't take it lightly rescheduling the date. Sadly,

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Speaker 3: I'm not going back to Copenhagen on the fourteenth, so

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Speaker 3: I'm just gonna flip my ticket. But they'll come to

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Speaker 3: the States, I know they.

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Speaker 1: Right, of course, and you'll see them again soon. Take heart.

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Speaker 1: Chin's up, folks, fellow ridiculous historians. We can all go

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Speaker 1: to a radio Head concert as long as there is

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Speaker 1: not a nuclear war.

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Speaker 3: Well, they're actually the perfect band to be listening to

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Speaker 3: in a nuclear fallow.

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Speaker 1: Who's in a bunker.

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Speaker 3: We're listening to Idiotech kid A in our family bunker

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Speaker 3: with our nuclear family.

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Speaker 1: So the end of the Second World War brought about

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Speaker 1: a lot of good things. There's a lot of chaos, horror, atrocities,

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Speaker 1: literal genocide, and it also launched something we call the

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Speaker 1: Cold War, which we've talked about in our sister show Stuff.

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Speaker 1: They don't want you to know, we're talking about decades

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Speaker 1: of nuclear paranoia. The bombs may drop at any given moment.

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Speaker 1: It feels weird to make your bed, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean. During the Cuban missile crisis, you're like, should

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Speaker 1: I make the bed? Or is today the day? Does

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Speaker 1: anything really matter? Yeah? Is it all futile and for nothing?

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Speaker 1: Is it all a big black nothing? Then? Is it

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Speaker 1: all a big black nothing? These questions we ask ourselves

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Speaker 1: in the dark nights of the soul.

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Speaker 3: And that's all because of some very sillily named bombs

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Speaker 3: that dropped the fat Man and Little Boy that were

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Speaker 3: dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki reverse respectively. Hiroshima was a

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Speaker 3: little boy Nagasaki was fat man. And not only did

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Speaker 3: this result in the unconditional surrender of the big bads

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Speaker 3: in that conflict, at least from where we stand, it

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Speaker 3: created this arms race and this just sense of paranoia

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Speaker 3: around a thing that was no longer just conceptual. It

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Speaker 3: was a thing that had happened, and boy, oh boy,

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Speaker 3: was it a thing that happened to some people. And

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Speaker 3: the fallouts pun intended, was utterly, you know, disastrous, And

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Speaker 3: we then all of a sudden, everyone starts to insert

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Speaker 3: themselves into that scenario.

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Speaker 1: What if it happened here? What if it happened to me?

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Speaker 1: This is a question people around the world ask themselves

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Speaker 1: whenever a disaster of this magnitude occurs, and this launched

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Speaker 1: a very strange cultural moment in the United States, in particular,

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Speaker 1: Uncle Sam said, look, we're going to handle things happening

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Speaker 1: outside of the borders, and we'll do our best to

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Speaker 1: take care of the public and keep you safe. But

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Speaker 1: just in case, John and Jane blue jeans, just in

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Speaker 1: case we don't manage to stop all the bombs and

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Speaker 1: the missiles and the rockets, you should consider investing in

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Speaker 1: your own protection at home.

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Speaker 3: And if you can't afford it, then just climb under

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Speaker 3: your bed and then get in the fetal position, right right,

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Speaker 3: Surely that's all it'll take. Right, So every time I

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Speaker 3: think about duck and cover Ben, I think about the

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Speaker 3: mummified like meducified figures of Pompeii.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, totally man. And I remember having to conduct

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Speaker 1: some of those drills in my younger years. It's very

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Speaker 1: strange to be a kid and be at a nuclear

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Speaker 1: drill where they say, okay, you know the this is

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Speaker 1: what you do if the bombs are going off, get

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Speaker 1: under your tiny wooden desk because that'll definitely do the trick. Right. Well,

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Speaker 1: what could go wrong?

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Speaker 3: It is one of those things where it just you

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Speaker 3: realize how much it was just more of an extra

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Speaker 3: size in like wishful thinking than it was in actual preparedness.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah, it was almost propagandistic. So how do we

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Speaker 1: get here? As we mentioned, the atomic bombs are deployed

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Speaker 1: at only one period in human warfare, August sixth and ninth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen forty five. This was total war. Many civilians were killed.

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Speaker 1: If you were ever in the area in either Nagasaki

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Speaker 1: or Hiroshima, please do take the time to visit the

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Speaker 1: historical sites. It's worth it.

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Speaker 3: And I think we've mentioned this before. Some excellent depictions,

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Speaker 3: and when I say excellent, I just mean really artistically

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Speaker 3: rendered and beautiful and tragic in pop culture, like The

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Speaker 3: Grave of the Fireflies or Barefoot Gin some of the

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Speaker 3: animated films that depict the horrors of nuclear war just

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Speaker 3: incredibly starkly.

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Speaker 1: History is always closer than it looks in the rear

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Speaker 1: view mirror. What I was last in Hiroshima, I spent

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Speaker 1: some time, as you know, no, I spent some time

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Speaker 1: exploring the museum, the blast site, the history behind it,

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Speaker 1: and the city itself now is doing very well and

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Speaker 1: has preserved the legacy of these events. At the time.

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Speaker 1: Of course, this is still a touchy subject if you're

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Speaker 1: in Japan, But at the time, the Imperial Japanese government

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Speaker 1: was pretty nasty, pretty aggressive. If you want to learn

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Speaker 1: more about things like Unit seven thirty one check out stuff,

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Speaker 1: they don't want you to know, the rape of Nanking

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Speaker 1: and so on. What we're saying is in war there

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Speaker 1: often aren't really pure good guys. Everybody's got some sins

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Speaker 1: and some skeletons in the closet. But because of this,

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Speaker 1: like you were saying the bombs drop and the United

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Speaker 1: States is for a fairly brief amount of time, it

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Speaker 1: is the only guy in the game with nuclear weapons.

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Speaker 1: You know, I just watched the on the flight back

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Speaker 1: the Thunderbolts film. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I really liked

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Speaker 1: it a lot.

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Speaker 3: It's sad that it didn't really do well in the

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Speaker 3: box office because I would have loved to see them

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Speaker 3: take those characters further. But the New Avengers, and there's

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Speaker 3: a character in it who I believe is the President,

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Speaker 3: played by Elaine from Seinfeld, and she says something like,

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Speaker 3: it's not about being the good guy, it's about being

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Speaker 3: the less.

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Speaker 1: Worse guy, or something along those lines. Yeah, she is

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Speaker 1: a mover and shaker character who is manipulating the heroes.

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Speaker 1: I don't think she's the president.

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Speaker 3: But they're talking about impeachment, so she must be like

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Speaker 3: a high ranking government official of some kind. But I

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Speaker 3: definitely didn't clock what her actual job title was.

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Speaker 1: It's a great film. Check it out for it.

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Speaker 3: I really enjoyed it, and it did it not to derail,

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Speaker 3: but I thought it did a really cool job of

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Speaker 3: characterizing addiction in a very interesting way. The main century

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Speaker 3: character was with the century, the sort of manipulated battie.

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Speaker 3: He's got a background in substance abuse and mental health issues.

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Speaker 3: And I thought they did a really thoughtful, tasteful job

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Speaker 3: of like talking about sort of the shadow self and

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Speaker 3: all of those things.

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Speaker 1: And the shadow self is something that the United States

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Speaker 1: is considering, both as a government and as the public.

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Speaker 1: They knew that it was only a matter of time

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Speaker 1: before this powerful, potentially world ending technology spread to other countries,

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Speaker 1: particularly the United States historical frenemie the Soviet Union, and

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Speaker 1: for the US at this time post World War two,

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Speaker 1: right still the only folks in town with the bomb.

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Speaker 1: They for the US because they were almost certain that

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Speaker 1: this technology would spread to other countries. They wanted to

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Speaker 1: flex the power while they had it, right, while they

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Speaker 1: were the only car with gas in the tank. However,

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Speaker 1: we also learned history would prove that the Soviet intelligence

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Speaker 1: apparatus had already well infiltrated the United States nuclear program,

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Speaker 1: at least to the point where they knew what it was,

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Speaker 1: and they were quickly figuring out how to build their

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Speaker 1: own toys. And this leads us to something weird and sticky,

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Speaker 1: which is whether or not the Cold War ended in

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Speaker 1: the West, people are going to tell you it ended

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Speaker 1: by nineteen ninety one, right, or by the fall of

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Speaker 1: the Soviet Union. But if you go too, especially Russian

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Speaker 1: officials and Daddy Vladdie, they'll tell you the Cold War

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Speaker 1: never ended. Beat me here, Max, They'll say, there is

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Speaker 1: not shit, sweet, and it's still it's still go time.

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Speaker 1: Thank you Max. Well, yeah, I mean, it's as long

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Speaker 1: as the technology.

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Speaker 3: Exists and no one's used it yet, and we know

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Speaker 3: that people who maybe are not like our best of

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Speaker 3: pals have it. You're always kind of in a perma standoff. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is where we see a house yon

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Speaker 1: age peak nuclear paranoia. It's almost like a moral panic. Diy,

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Speaker 1: do it yourself home. Nuclear bunkers became a thing, and so,

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Speaker 1: as our research associate, our pal Dylan mentions here, this

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Speaker 1: was more than just a backdrop for the amazing Fallout

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Speaker 1: franchise and all the other science fiction works about living

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Speaker 1: in bunkers. We want to grab our official Fallout cookbooks

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Speaker 1: and start scheming a plan of interior design for our

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Speaker 1: own Fallout bunkers to house your perfect nuclear family. We're

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Speaker 1: going to learn more about American propaganda, which was fa

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Speaker 1: frankly ridiculous at the time. We're going to talk to

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Speaker 1: more about duck and cover drills, cartoon turtles, cartoon turtles.

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Speaker 1: We're also going to explore a little bit of history

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Speaker 1: along the way. So, as we said, everybody, it was

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Speaker 1: only a matter of time before there were other nuclear

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Speaker 1: powers on the planet. On August twenty ninth, nineteen forty nine,

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Speaker 1: Kazakhstein ends the nuclear monopoly. They test. The Soviet Union

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Speaker 1: goes there to test their own atomic bomb, affectionately nicknamed

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Speaker 1: Joe one. I'd never heard that one before, Ben, I

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Speaker 1: know it's called Joe one. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And we've got Alex Wellerston writing for History of Science

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Speaker 3: and Nuclear Weapons, who is a professor at the Stevens

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Speaker 3: Institute of Technology. During this period, the United States is

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Speaker 3: suddenly having to really reckon with the fact that it

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Speaker 3: is not the only nuclear power out there anymore.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: Instead of just seeing the bomb as this asset that

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Speaker 3: we could use or not use, it suddenly brought to

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Speaker 3: bear that this is something that could be used against us.

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Speaker 3: You can't put the badger back in the bag. Been

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Speaker 3: And it's like one of those things where once it's

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Speaker 3: out there, it's only a matter of time before someone

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Speaker 3: else figures out to harness fire, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent, Yeah, because everybody wants to be Prometheus.

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Speaker 1: This is something that the US government is not able

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Speaker 1: to suppress. The public knows that now the Red Bear

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Speaker 1: half a world away has its own nuclear capabilities, and

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Speaker 1: so how do we as the US government address this,

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Speaker 1: How do we get the public prepared for these terrifying possibilities. Well,

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Speaker 1: it starts on January twelfth, nineteen fifty one. Then US

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Speaker 1: President Truman creates something called the FICTA or Federal Civil

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Speaker 1: Defense Administration.

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Speaker 3: Right, this was a direct respondence to the Soviets nuclear

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Speaker 3: test of Joe one, an acknowledgment of this new reality,

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Speaker 3: this idea of a potential new clear armageddon that was

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Speaker 3: very very real and very very palpable, presenting this nightmare

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Speaker 3: scenario that the federal government was just frankly completely unprepared for, underfunded,

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Speaker 3: and just didn't really you know, have the infrastructure in

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Speaker 3: place to do anything about this because you know, sadly

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Speaker 3: that kind of I don't know what you might call

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Speaker 3: it arrogance that the US is historically presented that you know,

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Speaker 3: that facade was really slipping.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because it was confronted by facts. And here's one

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Speaker 1: of the ridiculous things that the FCDA does. They could

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Speaker 1: have if they had enough money, they could have allocated

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Speaker 1: federal funding to civil defense projects. But instead of doing that,

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Speaker 1: our friends at Civil Defense started putting out propaganda. And

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Speaker 1: their concept was, look, if we can motivate members of

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Speaker 1: the public to help do some of this work, that

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Speaker 1: we're going to save money and we'll have better defended nations.

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Speaker 1: So if we can, if we can get in people's

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Speaker 1: heads enough to motivate citizens at the state, local, or

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Speaker 1: even private level to pay for their own bunkers, pay

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Speaker 1: for their own defensive measures, then boom, we're we're starting

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Speaker 1: off on second base.

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Speaker 3: Gosh, Bennett reminds me a lot of like how the

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Speaker 3: initial push for recycling was its own propaganda to defer

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Speaker 3: or deflect some of the responsibility of pollution onto the

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Speaker 3: consumer and.

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Speaker 1: Say, actually, you should do something about this. This is

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Speaker 1: on you, exactly, Yeah, put it on put it on

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Speaker 1: the consumer, put it on the public. This is one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent very similar logic. So how do we know

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Speaker 1: this is propaganda? Well, we know it because if you

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Speaker 1: look at the old Civil Defense educational pamphlets that they

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Speaker 1: spread across the land. You'll see that they are very misleading,

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Speaker 1: or they downplay the severity of atomic radiation in nuclear fallout.

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Speaker 1: We don't know if this was because they actually didn't

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Speaker 1: know what happens when a nuclear blast occurs, Like maybe

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Speaker 1: they didn't know how the radiation, how long the radiation

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Speaker 1: would stick around, how far the fallout could spread, or

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Speaker 1: maybe and this is probably more likely, they did know,

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Speaker 1: but they were trying to keep everybody call, which is

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Speaker 1: just the most unhelpful thing if you're ever in an

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Speaker 1: emergency situation. I get it. I know we have to

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Speaker 1: say this kind of stuff when people are scared, But

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Speaker 1: I don't think anybody hears a recorded voice saying, calmly,

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Speaker 1: proceed to the nearest exit and then in fact proceeds

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Speaker 1: called That's true.

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Speaker 3: There is something to be said of, like, you know,

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Speaker 3: lowering the temperature on this type of tension and this

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Speaker 3: type of paranoia. Like when I was getting off the

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Speaker 3: plane in Atlanta yesterday, there was a family that was

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Speaker 3: clearly very very very stressed about making their connecting flight,

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Speaker 3: and I wasn't lying to them, but I told them.

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Speaker 3: They said they had an hour, and I said, Oh,

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Speaker 3: you'll be fine, you can make it in an hour,

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Speaker 3: and I was, you know, and it's possible they missed

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Speaker 3: their flight. But honestly, is it is it better to

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Speaker 3: like be terrified and worrying about the worst possible outcome

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Speaker 3: or is there something too.

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Speaker 1: Just a little bit of wish fulfillment.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And also it's something you can't control, that's right, So

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Speaker 1: worrying about the things you cannot control, it's kind of

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Speaker 1: self defeating. But it's something a lot of people do.

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Speaker 1: And so the United States, which does have a good

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Speaker 1: understanding of large scale psychology, they say, we're going to

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Speaker 1: reassure the public in some way, right, and we're actually

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Speaker 1: and I'll use this word, we're actually going to trick

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Speaker 1: them into thinking simple stuff like a DIY fallout bunker

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Speaker 1: and duct a cover drills are going to keep you

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Speaker 1: safe in World War IIEA, yeah, let's let's let's make.

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Speaker 3: Some fun cartoons. The kiddies will like a cartoon turtle

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Speaker 3: telling them everything is going to be a okay. The

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Speaker 3: fc DA did focus heavily on initiatives that made it

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Speaker 3: to the classroom, where they were able to sort of

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Speaker 3: shape a new generation, you know, into thinking about this

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Speaker 3: stuff in a way that was perhaps helpful to the

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Speaker 3: overall narrative from their side, from the perspective of the government.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. It's the logic that Wu Tang would you

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Speaker 1: use later, You get the children right, and then they

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Speaker 1: get the adults. Toy companies have done this forever too, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: So they wanted to talk to kids, not about necessarily

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Speaker 1: terrifying stuff. They want to be all gloom and doom,

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Speaker 1: but they wanted to say, hate fellow kids. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's really cool gardening at home and canning and make

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Speaker 1: your dad pay for a bunker. I'm Bertha Turtle. I

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Speaker 1: was on board with how do we all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden get to bunker right right? And it would be

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Speaker 1: the whole family to be fair, not just that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's true. So kids would practice these air raid drills,

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Speaker 1: primarily in cities that the US thought were likely targets

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Speaker 1: for the Soviet Union Los Angeles, New York City, Chicago,

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Speaker 1: a big metro areas, Milwaukee, San Francisco, Philadelphia, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: And to jump in here real quick, kind of like

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Speaker 2: a side tangent.

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Speaker 5: But back in the day, we had an episode about

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Speaker 5: how they tested chemical warfare on Saint Louis because it

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Speaker 5: was the most Soviet Union looking city.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think I told you guys this one

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Speaker 2: at least off air.

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Speaker 5: But I have a good friend, his name is Vick,

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Speaker 5: who grew up in Saint Louis, and I told him that,

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Speaker 5: and like the chemical wharf, the chemical testing, which it

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Speaker 5: wasn't hazardous, I don't think, but it was like that

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Speaker 5: that creeped him out. But he's also like the part

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Speaker 5: that bother room was was like, I don't like the

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Speaker 5: fact that they think Saint Louis is the most Soviet

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Speaker 5: Union looking city in this country.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: How much brutalist architecture does the city possess. They got

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Speaker 1: that arch it's pretty brutal. Yeah, And we also explore

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Speaker 1: that that case at length in our books. Stuff they

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Speaker 1: don't want you to know. As you said, Max, the

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Speaker 1: as far as we can tell, the stuff that they

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Speaker 1: were dispersing, it was targeting poorer neighborhoods, right, And it

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Speaker 1: was also according to the people who conducted the test,

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Speaker 1: it did not contain dangerous chemicals. Right.

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Speaker 3: And when we say poorer neighborhoods, we're also referring largely

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Speaker 3: to black and brown people being targeted.

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Yeah, people who probably wouldn't have the

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Speaker 1: legal means to fight back. So this sort of stuff

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Speaker 1: is old, is dirt, right, these tactics used against the

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Speaker 1: public for greater good. We also have to point out

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Speaker 1: that it's a real trip to watch these old nuclear

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Speaker 1: war PSAs and instructions for kids because as Bert the

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Speaker 1: turtle is always in a great mood despite the fact

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Speaker 1: that in his universe the end of the world has occurring.

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Speaker 3: It is, it is on the horizon for sure, but

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Speaker 3: he has a real can do attitude. He is fully

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Speaker 3: convinced that ducking and covering, because he's a turtle by

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Speaker 3: the way, that's what he does. He pulls his head

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Speaker 3: and his legs inside of his shell. Makes sense, was

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Speaker 3: gonna be enough to protect our meat bodies from explosive radiation?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and he also he also spent a lot of

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Speaker 1: time trying to normalize the concept of ducking and covering.

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Speaker 1: You've got to see this absolute banger duck and cover.

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Speaker 1: It comes about because in nineteen fifty one, Uncle Sam

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Speaker 1: hires an ad agency out of New York called Archer Productions.

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Speaker 1: They say, Okay, make this film for kids and tell

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Speaker 1: them how to, you know, feel like they're protecting themselves

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Speaker 1: from atomic war. So they come up with this guy Bert,

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Speaker 1: Like you said, Nola, I love that he's a turtle.

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Speaker 1: So he's got like a walking bunker already. And he said,

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Speaker 1: Burt would go on in this cartoon and he would say, look, kids,

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Speaker 1: ducking covery is no different from reacting to a fire,

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Speaker 1: or wearing a seatbelt, or making sure not to get sunburn.

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Speaker 3: Let's hear a little clip from the from the this

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Speaker 3: video that we're talking about. He's got a bow tie,

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Speaker 3: snow and of flowers, also wearing a military helmet.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, the monkey's dangling a piece of dynamite. I

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Speaker 1: love that. I love this idea of like the nuclear bomb.

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Speaker 3: Is this tantamount to a monkey dangling a single piece

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Speaker 3: of dynamite?

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Speaker 4: Be sure remember what Bert the Turtle justed, friends, because

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Speaker 4: every one of us must remember to do the same thing.

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Speaker 4: That's what this film is all about. Duck and cover.

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Speaker 4: This is an official civil defense film produced in cooperation

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Speaker 4: with the Federal Civil Defense Administration and in consultation with

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Speaker 4: the Safety Commission of the National Education Association.

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Speaker 1: Produced by Archer Productions. What do we always say? About

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Speaker 1: seemingly innocuous organization names sketchy. That's a real sketchbook page.

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Speaker 1: But the point there is true. You can watch it.

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Speaker 1: It's exactly what we're describing. The Simian creature dangling a

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Speaker 1: stick of dynamite blows himself up and blows the tree

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Speaker 1: up that he's hanging from. But our hero Bert is

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Speaker 1: safe because he what ducked and covered. Right. It's right.

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Speaker 3: And if you're watching the new IT series, welcome to

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Speaker 3: Darry No spoilers. But when Pennywise the clown finally appears,

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Speaker 3: the first thing he says to the kids is ducking

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Speaker 3: cover kiddos.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow? Is it the same? Is it the Scars Guard?

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Speaker 3: It is?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because he's back and he doesn't it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's Scott's issues.

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Speaker 3: But I'm enjoying it. But it is the same exact

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Speaker 3: era that we're describing here. I like what I've seen,

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Speaker 3: but I haven't seen the latest episodes. I'm a big

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Speaker 3: fan of Stephen King, and I'm a big fan of

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Speaker 3: almost every part of the novel.

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Speaker 1: It.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you don't like the you don't like the part

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Speaker 3: where they I don't like that part.

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Speaker 1: You don't like that part.

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Speaker 3: You don't like that one part, not just look up

408
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Speaker 3: that one part and yeah, you don't.

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Speaker 1: Have to describe it, but we'll keep it. Peach through

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Speaker 1: Cocaine's a hell of a drum. That is honestly what

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Speaker 1: Stephen King probably said several times. So if we go

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Speaker 1: back to this, this is already kind of Stephen kingish

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Speaker 1: and creepy.

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Speaker 3: Right the million you know, he he he absolutely these

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Speaker 3: He would have grown up in this era with this

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Speaker 3: type of paranoia and fear and this idea of the

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Speaker 3: godlike power of destruction. Obviously the stand is about something

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Speaker 3: similar to this, and he is very much on the

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Speaker 3: man's mind, no question about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but look at it from a practical perspective, if

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Speaker 1: we separate the propaganda, just to be clear, if we

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Speaker 1: haven't been clear enough ducking and covering in the event

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Speaker 1: of a nuclear bomb on a school, it's not gonna save.

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Speaker 3: You, ain't gonna do it, not gonna happen, Nope. So

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Speaker 3: but it's good to have, you know, things that you

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Speaker 3: think will will help. Again, it's all it was propagandistic

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Speaker 3: and that none of this was going to actually do

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Speaker 3: any good, but it kind of had a calming effect.

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Speaker 1: Potential. Sure, Yeah, who doesn't level a little ritual, a

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Speaker 1: little procedural placebo, that's what this becomes. And W. Gale Sterns,

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Speaker 1: who is the director of the Civil Defense Division of

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Speaker 1: Education and Training, came to educators and said, look, you

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Speaker 1: need to not just settle for Bert the Turtle or

434
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: breakout Star. You need to make sure that we're in

435
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: co operating civil defense in every daily function. It's way

436
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 1: more than just something a federal agency does. You, my

437
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: fellow Americans, need to make this your way of life.

438
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 1: And that's where the whole bunker industry comes in, which

439
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 1: is cool.

440
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, And as you mentioned earlier, been a lot of

441
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 3: this had to do with how unprepared we as a

442
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 3: country and as a government actually were. So this idea

443
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 3: of rather than maybe putting infrastructure in place, building these

444
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 3: things for you, having some sort of national preparedness plan,

445
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,400
Speaker 3: it was almost like shifting the responsibility to the individuals.

446
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 1: Exactly one hundred percent, right. And I don't know, I

447
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 1: am sure that I've mentioned this to you some point

448
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 1: over the years, but I used to live in I

449
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 1: think there was a creepy stone castle essentially off a

450
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: street here called Morland Nice. I know Moreland. Yeah, like

451
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: the house on knee Bolt Street. It was built by

452
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: a very short man back in the twenties or thirties,

453
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,959
Speaker 1: and it was not really up to modern code. But

454
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: one interesting thing this guy did, who was very paranoid,

455
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: he built a bomb shelter in his castle. There was

456
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,719
Speaker 1: a room in the basement obviously you know windows, It

457
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: was four to five and it was creepy. We turned

458
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: it into a dark room for photography.

459
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 3: Bomb shelter, fallout, shelter, bunker, all of these things can

460
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 3: be synonymous, right, yeah.

461
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so let's fast forward. It's nineteen

462
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: fifty eight. President Eisenhower has issued something called the National

463
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 1: Shelter Policy, and this is a public info campaign trying

464
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 1: to motivate citizens to build their own home defenses, primarily

465
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: do it yourself bunkers. So again, like you were saying, no,

466
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,959
Speaker 1: this puts the responsibility of civil defense on the individual,

467
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: on the family. And there were there were equally propagandistic

468
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 1: things that people said, like the Civil Defense director at

469
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: the time, Leo A. Wo h O E g h.

470
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: He said every hole should be a fortress.

471
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 3: Right and almost like factoring it in or piggybacking this

472
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 3: into this.

473
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 1: Idea of the American dream.

474
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 3: You know, like making it part of Like that's why

475
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 3: fall Out, the series and the video game is so

476
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 3: interesting because it does such a good job of like

477
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 3: the way they advertise these vault tech vaults.

478
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: It's in that.

479
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 3: Same kind of like, you know, the modern household, the

480
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 3: modern family, all of the amenities and technologies that you

481
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 3: know kind of were part and parcel for what it

482
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 3: meant to be a great American living in the age

483
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 3: of you know, technology in the future.

484
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, and the jombing real quick, as you know, I'm

485
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 5: a big fall Out fanly, like all three of us.

486
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 5: It's like one of her things because it is kind

487
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 5: of an alternate universe where basically fifties culture just continues,

488
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,479
Speaker 5: it doesn't change and progress sixties stuff like that. And

489
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 5: so yeah, it's just like watching all this stuff. I've

490
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 5: always found this is one of my favorite areas of studying.

491
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 5: But uh, and I think like Fallout just captures.

492
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 2: It so well.

493
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: I mean, I love retro futurism, man, I'm super into it.

494
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: And they're also selling this dystopian thing. The argument is

495
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: from officials is not only is it your duty as

496
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: an American citizen to be prepared. It is also your

497
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: privilege and it should be your aspiration. We're not just

498
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: gonna make you build a bomb shelter. We want you

499
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: to be happy that you're doing it right. We want

500
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: you to feel good about it.

501
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, this idyllic sort of quality of like, no, no,

502
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 3: this is just it's the same as like, you know,

503
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 3: having the latest appliances in your kitchen, you also need

504
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 3: a really dope bomb shelter.

505
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, keep up with the Joneses. And this is

506
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: where we see things like the senator from Georgia at

507
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: the time, or a senator from Georgia at the time,

508
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: Richard Russell. He's the damn guy, right, Richard B. Russell.

509
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: Dam isn't that a thing?

510
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:16,479
Speaker 4: Oh?

511
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: I think you're correct, man, that's a great reference. I

512
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: didn't put that together, but yes, you're absolutely right. And

513
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 1: this guy, Senator Russell, would say, look these shelters that

514
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: again you people have to build. They are absolutely mission

515
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: critical for the US to maintain global dominance as a superpower.

516
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: He said, quote, if we have to start over with

517
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: another Adam and Eve, I want them to be Americans

518
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: and not Russians and I want them on this continent

519
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 1: and not in Europe.

520
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 3: However, the problem is, or the flip side of that

521
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 3: is the father of the higher gen bomb, doctor Edward

522
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 3: Teller said that without actual government subsidized preparedness and civil

523
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 3: defense infrastructure put in place like some of these, you know,

524
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 3: more nationalized bomb shelters, the United States.

525
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: Would quote cease to exist.

526
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 3: So this was really kind of kicking the can down

527
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 3: the road because of a lack of preparedness, because they

528
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 3: just were a little too high on our own supply

529
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 3: and thought nobody else can be as big of a

530
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 3: big shot as we.

531
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: Are, right exactly, and historically that doesn't work out well

532
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 1: for empires. The tensions continue to rise throughout the Cold War.

533
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: Fast forward. It's July twenty fifth, nineteen sixty one. We've

534
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: got a different president now. His name is JFK and

535
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: he has to go to the public and say, look, yes,

536
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: tensions are escalating, we want peace, but these guys are crazy.

537
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 1: And as a result, oh, friends and neighbors, it is

538
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: a great time to be in the home shelter business.

539
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: They're selling like hotcakes, they're selling like fruitcakes.

540
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's where the whole voltech you know it comes

541
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 3: from the Fallout universe. So this really starts to become

542
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 3: a boom time for the Family Fallout Shelter, which was

543
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 3: actually the name of a book that sold twenty two

544
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 3: million copies nineteen fifty nine. The Family Fallout Shelter was

545
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 3: really a pamphlet, I guess you could call it. It

546
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 3: was released by the Office of Civil Defense Mobilization, and

547
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 3: in it they detailed a step by step guide for

548
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 3: explaining to families how to build their own fallout shelters

549
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 3: as an extension of their like home garages or basements

550
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 3: or digging into the backyard.

551
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: And these instructions are well intentioned, but they did not

552
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: age well. It's very much leaning on those nuclear family

553
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: gender roles that we mentioned earlier.

554
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 3: Mom wearing an apron, dad smoking a pipe, you know,

555
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 3: all of that stuff. This is like what a great

556
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 3: father son activity, right, digging out a fallout shelter would.

557
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: Be, right, exactly. And we can back this up with

558
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 1: a state from historian Sarah A. Lichtmann who said, quote,

559
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: the desire to protect the imperiled home long a bulwark

560
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: of American frontierism and self defense, now translated to staving

561
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: off the physical and psychological devastations of nuclear attack.

562
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 3: Well, then the question becomes, would these you know, obviously

563
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 3: thankfully knock kong would we didn't have to put this

564
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 3: to the test, But would these as described in the

565
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 3: family fault outsheltered structures or extensions of the home. Would

566
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 3: they have worked? Would they have been a little bit

567
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 3: of a step beyond duck and cover?

568
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: One might hope. Yeah, that's the million kiloton question, isn't it. No,

569
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: Because now we see again this ritual of doing something

570
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: to feel that you are protecting your family, to feel

571
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: that you are more empowered. But the materials that they

572
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: would use for construction had to be readily available, right,

573
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,479
Speaker 1: so you had to go You're literally being told to

574
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: go to a hardware store and make a little room

575
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 1: that's a bit more fortified than the other rooms in

576
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 1: your house. And I think we all thought about this.

577
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: This is also the era of the like prefab homes

578
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: that Steers in Roebuck advertised in their catalogs. Steers in

579
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 1: Roebuck catalogs obviously a big propagandistic force in and of itself,

580
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 1: creating this.

581
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 3: Image of the the you know, the modern American family.

582
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 3: So think about it like that these are the kinds

583
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 3: of ad campaigns we'd be seeing, whether on the local

584
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 3: level or more national level, fire sale low price on

585
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 3: nuclear fallout shelters for a family of five, don't miss

586
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 3: this great opportunity to guarantee your future exactly.

587
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. And we're talking about stuff like concrete blocks, ready

588
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 1: mixed border, wooden, post board, sheeting, pounds of Dale's you

589
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: know again, stuff you could get at your local ACE

590
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: hardware store essentially, And we can then say in our

591
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 1: buddy research associated Dilien agrees with us, we can then

592
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 1: say that, no, the vast majority of these home shelters

593
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: probably would not have worked in the face of a

594
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 1: direct nuclear attack. Yeah, yeah, I don't think so.

595
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 3: It's not to mention, like, I mean, if it wasn't

596
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,720
Speaker 3: a direct hit though, Ben, Yeah, and you were able

597
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 3: to wade out the like literal fallout and all of

598
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 3: the nuclear materials and you know, the stuff that would

599
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 3: you know, permeate the air, you know, surrounding the impact

600
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,720
Speaker 3: zone of a nuclear blast.

601
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: What would have been left exactly Yeah. I mean that's

602
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: the thing.

603
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 3: Too, like when you emerge, right, and that's also the

604
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 3: stuff of post apocalyptic fiction as well.

605
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: What happens after right, and you usually, yeah, you get

606
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 1: to that question of whether or not you want to

607
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 1: continue living in the world that is left in the

608
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: smoking ruins of human civilization. Again, folks, check out our

609
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 1: episode on stuff they Don't Want you to know? Can

610
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: you survive a nuclear attack? That was a very sobering

611
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 1: one for us. The statistics are frightening. It's also kind

612
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 1: of frightening too. I'm not sure what to make of this,

613
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: because it's frightening to imagine that the US government knew

614
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: it was misleading people and continue to do so. They

615
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: were asking people to lobby for the US to directly

616
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: strike the Soviet Union.

617
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 3: No, and again back to the hubris of it all,

618
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 3: I guess given you know, yeah, that was not great.

619
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 3: Knowing that the technology existed, perhaps it would have been

620
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 3: smart to have made some bigger picture, long game plans

621
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 3: for what might happen if this were to end up

622
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 3: in the hands of quote unquote the enemy. But given

623
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 3: the circumstances and all of that hubris, was this about

624
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 3: the best they could do given the timeline.

625
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: I think so, because they were at a crisis moment

626
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: and they were trying to thread the needle as best

627
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: they could, but it prevents all out panic, right, but

628
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: it absolutely did lead to ridiculous history. And this wasn't,

629
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,399
Speaker 1: by the way, this wasn't a super successful initiative. By

630
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 1: around nineteen sixty, the real height of the Cold War,

631
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 1: as the West understands it, something like maybe three percent

632
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: of the American population had actually built a shelter.

633
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 3: Pretty rare to hear about, Like, oh, it's kind of

634
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 3: an oddity if you end up renting a home or

635
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 3: purchasing a home and no, there's a fallout shelter. Like,

636
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 3: it's definitely not something that there are an absolute heap of.

637
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what I mean. What they were aiming

638
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: for to be kind of like a normalized structure in

639
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,959
Speaker 1: any given household, kind of the way that so many

640
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: homes in Finland have saunas, and it's normalized in like

641
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 1: an apartment complex. It's weird for there not to be

642
00:37:55,360 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: a sauna apparently. But this is where we have to

643
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 1: leave it. In the immortal words of our pal Bert

644
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: the Turtle, Duck and Cover, it's the best we got.

645
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:10,720
Speaker 2: It's the best we've got.

646
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,879
Speaker 1: We have the best audience in the history of podcasting.

647
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 1: That's you, specifically you. Thank you so much for tuning in, folks,

648
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,399
Speaker 1: and big thanks to our super producer mister Max Williams, and.

649
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 3: Huge thanks to our research associated for this episode, Dylan

650
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:26,760
Speaker 3: Wade Clark, excellent job on this brief.

651
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Speaker 1: Jeez, Chris Frasiotis and Eves Jeff Coates here in spirit. Oh,

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Speaker 1: totally yeah, Doctor Rachel Big Spinach, Lance aj Bahamas, Jacobs,

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Speaker 1: and famously the guy who wouldn't let other people into

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Speaker 1: his fallout shelter, Jonathan Strickland. Man, I'm sure you would

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Speaker 1: if we asked nicely. Let's text him. Okay, let's do it.

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Speaker 1: We'll see you next time, folks.

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Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,