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Speaker 1: Hey, Matt, before we begin today's classic episode, have you

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Speaker 1: ever been in a flame war online? Yeah? Back around?

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Speaker 1: I don't know, yeah, definitely, maybe, maybe, Yeah, I've been

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Speaker 1: in my share, yes, yeah, Accidentally sometimes when I don't

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Speaker 1: think that I'm in a flame war, because online you

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Speaker 1: can miss a lot of the social cues of communication

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Speaker 1: that would let you know how somebody feels about what

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Speaker 1: you're saying or what they're saying. So I thought we

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Speaker 1: were just having in depth discussions about things. They were

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Speaker 1: a bit heated, but not flaming. Right, We're a bit strident, Uh.

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Speaker 1: Today's episode is is about this issue like why do

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Speaker 1: arguments proliferate online and why can't people really win them?

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Speaker 1: Or why are your odds of winning an argument so

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Speaker 1: much lower in the world of online communication. I think

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Speaker 1: the answers we found hold up. I think they're pretty

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Speaker 1: interesting because there, you know, aside from all the bells

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Speaker 1: of whistles of technology, what we're really looking at is

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Speaker 1: the ancient technology of the human brain and psychology, I guess,

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Speaker 1: and when we find in this episode was pretty disturbing

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Speaker 1: to me, and it really is the reason I'm not

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Speaker 1: on social media right now. But this conversation. I think

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it goes back to this conversation. Oh boy, yes,

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Speaker 1: So here's why let's call this episode why Math's not

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Speaker 1: on social media. From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies,

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Speaker 1: history is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back

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Speaker 1: now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Hello,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my

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Speaker 1: name is Nold, and I am then most importantly, you

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Speaker 1: are you, we hope, which makes this as always stuff

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Speaker 1: they don't want you to know, Ladies and gentlemen. Before

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Speaker 1: we get to anything else, before we start this show,

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Speaker 1: we want to do something very important and that is

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Speaker 1: shout Out Corner. That's right, It is the return of

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Speaker 1: our shout Out Corner. And the first person to get

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Speaker 1: a shout out today is our own Jake Hanrahan, who

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Speaker 1: asked us on Twitter, Hey, guys, do you still do

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Speaker 1: shout outs? We do, Jake, or we do for you?

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Speaker 1: So welcome. You are officially a member of the shout

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Speaker 1: Out Corner. Anybody else met you got shouted out, So

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Speaker 1: did you, Heather getting shouted out for saying things while

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Speaker 1: you were apparently intoxicated. That are hilarious on Twitter. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: So uh, we are going to continue our shout out corner.

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Speaker 1: If you would like to have your name read on

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Speaker 1: the air, if you would like to say hi to us,

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Speaker 1: or if you would like us to convey a message

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Speaker 1: to your fellow listeners. There are a couple of ways

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Speaker 1: to do it. You should take a page from Jake

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Speaker 1: and Heather's book and follow us on Twitter dot com

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Speaker 1: forward slash conspiracy stuff. Or you can just take a

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Speaker 1: page from the Noel Brown book and just be a

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Speaker 1: buddy of mine by the name of Wesley Van who

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Speaker 1: I turned out of the show recently and I wanted

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Speaker 1: to give him a little shouty addie. Oh yes, shout

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Speaker 1: out to Wesley as well. And so you know, I

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Speaker 1: think I think three are good for a shout out.

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Speaker 1: A quarner, right, yeah, so not a room. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: it's just a corner. It's just a quarner. So with that,

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Speaker 1: as always, thank you to Wesley, Jake and Heather for

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Speaker 1: checking out the show. Thank you to everyone else, all

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Speaker 1: you guys out there listening. Again, we can't emphasize it enough.

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Speaker 1: Our best ideas come from you. We're also on Facebook.

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Speaker 1: We have what else do we have, Guys, we have

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Speaker 1: a live show. We do. We do periscope. You can

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Speaker 1: find us their Periscope TV. Even though Facebook doesn't want

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Speaker 1: you to know, that's true, and but Facebook will let

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Speaker 1: you know about our Facebook live posts. We alternate. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we go back and forth. And our last one was

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Speaker 1: kind of cool because this is a little bit behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes. But nol matt Um and I hung out

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Speaker 1: with a future special guest who's who is a super

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Speaker 1: cool guy. I'm like his number one cheerleader actually, but

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Speaker 1: he he is simultaneously one of the most mysterious individuals

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Speaker 1: that I've ever met. But at the same time, I

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Speaker 1: feel like I could just sit and talk with him,

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Speaker 1: and he has the knowledge of of a professor. Put

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Speaker 1: it this way, the conversation over lunch veered wildly, from

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Speaker 1: alchemy to philosophy, all kinds of esoteric thought to you know,

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Speaker 1: the Fallout series and um Dungeons and Dragons rules, so

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Speaker 1: you know, cut quite a wide swath. I enjoyed myself

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Speaker 1: immensely looking Forred to having him on the show. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is a is a friend of mine from a

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Speaker 1: long time ago. But enough about that. You will you

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Speaker 1: will meet him soon, because we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: something different today, which might sound a little bit strange

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Speaker 1: for some of our listeners because we usually cover stuff

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Speaker 1: like cryptids. Oh and spoiler alert, you guys, I really

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Speaker 1: want to do some cryptids soon. Yeah, if we Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if I am so ready to cover cryptids. We just

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Speaker 1: gotta we have to find the new ones. Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: ones we haven't covered yet. You guys, I think that

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Speaker 1: sounds like a terrible idea. Get out of here, stop arguing. So,

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Speaker 1: you guys may have noticed that last week we did

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Speaker 1: a little episode on political conspiracies, which is one of

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Speaker 1: those things. I think it's politics, religion, and money. Those

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Speaker 1: are the three things that you shouldn't talk about at dinner. Well,

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Speaker 1: we we found out in our YouTube comments section in

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Speaker 1: our videos, specifically in this one, a lot of comments,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people just attacking each other, arguing with

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Speaker 1: each other, and uh, it kind of made us want

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Speaker 1: to look into this further. Yeah, exactly. That's a great point.

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Speaker 1: We do want to say that we really appreciate every

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Speaker 1: everybody who took the time to check out our YouTube

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Speaker 1: video and to check out our earlier audio episode. We

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Speaker 1: were surprised, you guys. We We thought we would get

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Speaker 1: just excoriated in comments and stuff because we talked about

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Speaker 1: political things, but a lot of people seemed pretty on board. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there were a lot of people just disagreeing with each

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Speaker 1: other and what they were writing in the comments rather

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Speaker 1: than what was actually in the video. We we do

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Speaker 1: try to be as unbiased as we can, or to

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Speaker 1: be biased toward facts rather than our own opinions. And

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Speaker 1: that's one where I spectacularly uh broke the rule and

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Speaker 1: I went on a rant. Yeah, I think that was

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Speaker 1: the first in our video series, at least think it

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Speaker 1: was at first. But but be that as it may,

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Speaker 1: met the point you make is excellent, uh, And we're

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Speaker 1: going to get to some listener feedback later regarding our

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Speaker 1: political stuff, so stay tuned for that towards the end.

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Speaker 1: But the point that Matt is making now is that

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Speaker 1: we saw arguments. We saw a lot of arguments, and

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Speaker 1: we started thinking, why do people argue online? Why does

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Speaker 1: it seem like there are always a couple of people

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Speaker 1: who are no matter what the video is or what

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Speaker 1: the story is, there's always like one or two people

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Speaker 1: who are fighting. And it could be something that's innocuous,

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Speaker 1: as like a cute overweight cat who is pushing a

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Speaker 1: cup off a table, or like a puppy that is

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Speaker 1: booping another puppy, and there's somebody in the comments he's

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Speaker 1: always going like, hey you buddy, exactly. Yeah, it ranges

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Speaker 1: pretty widely, and it's a weird thing, right, you know

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Speaker 1: where I've found some of the most just completely livid,

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Speaker 1: cantankerous arguments online whereas on local newspapers websites, so especially

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Speaker 1: you know, especially in the South, because people to have

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Speaker 1: a tendency to really uh let their Confederate flags fly,

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Speaker 1: shall we say? You know that is a weird thing.

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Speaker 1: I noticed that in looking up a couple of articles,

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Speaker 1: uh in in smaller newspapers online, the comments sections that

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Speaker 1: you have to scroll all the way down the page

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Speaker 1: to find are just filled with people yelling and saying

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Speaker 1: horrible things to each other on a I don't mean

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Speaker 1: who who goes there to like have a discussion. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's like a spoken word open mic night. The only

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Speaker 1: people who are going to watch are also the people

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Speaker 1: who want to perform, so people very very good analogy.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of cruel to spoke a word, and I

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Speaker 1: am a fan of spoken word. That's just a reality.

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Speaker 1: That's true of any kind of open mic night for

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Speaker 1: the most part. I mean, you know, if you've got

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Speaker 1: someone playing acoustic guitar, you know, singing Bob Dylan covers,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it's sort of a contract, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you've you got to watch the other the other

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Speaker 1: people doing the Bob Dylan covers before you get your

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Speaker 1: turn to do yours right and stand up. Open Mic

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Speaker 1: nights for comics are are tough because you know, comics

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Speaker 1: hate to laugh at each other's jokes. It's like walking

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Speaker 1: into a true to where everyone is angry, wonderful. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So it's the point, why why do we do this? Well,

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Speaker 1: it's a great question. This makes us think because we

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Speaker 1: must explore the nature of an argument itself before we

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Speaker 1: get to this strange world of arguing online. So the

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Speaker 1: nature of argument is this, Matt Noel, me or every

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Speaker 1: guest host we've ever had, you listening here, and every

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Speaker 1: single person you have ever met, probably certain h everyone

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Speaker 1: you have ever met is hardwired to prize feeling correct

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Speaker 1: over being correct. And that's a very important distinction. Right. Um.

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Speaker 1: There are some chemical reasons for that that we're going

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Speaker 1: to get into, but it's just it is a it's

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Speaker 1: something you need to know. Yeah, and evolutionary reasons as well.

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Speaker 1: So everyone's had some sort of argument. It doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: who you are, you've had some sort of argument. One

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Speaker 1: the nicest people I know is a local Atlanta improviser

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Speaker 1: named Mark Kendall. Super nicest guy, but it doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: if he would never himself start an argument. He lives

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Speaker 1: in an argumentative world. Right, So I think of you know,

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Speaker 1: the nicest person you know, we probably had an argument

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Speaker 1: at some point, right, yeah, I mean you in my

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Speaker 1: roommate Frank, for example. Um, And the funny thing is

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Speaker 1: he and I both used to live with a mutual

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Speaker 1: friend of ours who is just he. He lives for arguing.

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Speaker 1: He will, he will make his point, and we'll never

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Speaker 1: back down from it no matter what information you throw

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Speaker 1: at him. He's never wrong and he's good at it

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Speaker 1: because he's he makes you feel like you have to

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Speaker 1: meet his burden of proof, and then he constantly is

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Speaker 1: just like raising the bar. It's very clever and it's infuriating,

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Speaker 1: but you can't help but engage when he When he

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Speaker 1: does this, you play his reindeer games too, And so

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Speaker 1: you know Frank's got a little bit of that. Every

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Speaker 1: now and then we'll um. But you know the thing

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Speaker 1: about Frank, as he will back down. Sometimes it will

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Speaker 1: be like, you know, maybe something as simple as, uh,

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Speaker 1: this is the lyric to this song. I'm like, that's

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Speaker 1: not the right lyric, And you know, kind of go

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Speaker 1: back and forth for a while and eventually someone will

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Speaker 1: look it up and ended there and history hinges on history,

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Speaker 1: hinges on arguments. Arguments have caused wars, Arguments have caused

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Speaker 1: changes of government. Arguments have propelled some of the greatest

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Speaker 1: innovations of our species, and those maybe those we can

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Speaker 1: um group under rivalries more so, right like Edison and Tesla,

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Speaker 1: for instance, if they didn't have such enormous abiding contempt

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Speaker 1: for one another, would they have explored technology the way

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Speaker 1: they did? I think the answer is no. I think

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Speaker 1: they would have explored something differently. So argument is not

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Speaker 1: necessarily bad. Everyone has it. This has probably happened to

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Speaker 1: you recently when you were when you were doing something

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Speaker 1: else between the time you listen to our last show

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Speaker 1: and the time you're listening now, you may have argued

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Speaker 1: over something in your last show, for sure, So what

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Speaker 1: what do you do? How do you handle this when

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Speaker 1: this happens? Do you embrace conflict or or does even

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Speaker 1: the thought of an awkward social situation send you into

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Speaker 1: anxiety land? Like Mark Corrigan on Peep Show, You know

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Speaker 1: which is again? I think Nolan mentioned it earlier. He's

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Speaker 1: my spirit, anim he's your spirit. Well, at least you're

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Speaker 1: not jazz. Uh So, despite the name homo sapien modern

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Speaker 1: wise person, uh, we are biologically ill equipped for the

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Speaker 1: times of which we live. We are beta max is

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Speaker 1: in a blu ray world, which is totally inaccurate. I

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Speaker 1: just like the way it sounds. I like it, and

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Speaker 1: it's like outdated technology. It's But the funny thing is,

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Speaker 1: i't mean they're almost both out there blue that's the thing.

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Speaker 1: It sounds good, but blue rays are also outdated. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the the thing is that the evolution of our technology,

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Speaker 1: logical capability, and the evolution of our social dynamic across

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Speaker 1: the world, they've they've they've outpaced the biological evolution, the

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Speaker 1: biological adaptations that made human beings so suited to that

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Speaker 1: fight or die brutal grind of the ancient natural world

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Speaker 1: in which we lived. We evolved cognitively and physically to outrun, outfight,

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Speaker 1: or outwit predators and monsters in the world around us. However,

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Speaker 1: now we're in a different world. Now the threats aren't

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Speaker 1: so much you know, a tiger coming at you. Let's

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Speaker 1: say we're a bear that you have to fend off

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Speaker 1: to save your family or something. They're much more slow,

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Speaker 1: they're they're more existential. They're on paper a lot of times. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what are some of the terrors of the modern world

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Speaker 1: for other people in developed countries we should say they're

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Speaker 1: there or people who are well off. The things are like,

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Speaker 1: am I leaving a legacy? Is web MD? I Do

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Speaker 1: I have enough of these hoodies that I like, you know,

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Speaker 1: so I don't have to watch them all the time?

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Speaker 1: Good tickets for that concert or are they only that?

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Speaker 1: Are there only bad tickets left? And there are real

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Speaker 1: ones too, like the ones that are coming up, like

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Speaker 1: in the current political movements that we're seeing in like

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Speaker 1: how do government's function right? Even though that's that's a

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Speaker 1: large question, it's something that affects all of us that

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Speaker 1: we have to think about. But it's not something that

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Speaker 1: we can that you can fight against, that you can

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Speaker 1: fight or fight right well, it's also Another thing that's

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Speaker 1: becoming more and more um just part of potentially part

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Speaker 1: of a daily concern is threats of attacks, terroristics for example.

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Speaker 1: I mean, obviously we've been doing with that in our

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Speaker 1: culture for a long time, but for me personally and

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Speaker 1: also having a child, I feel like it's definitely more

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Speaker 1: in the forefront of my mind. Like I went to

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Speaker 1: a political event um last year and was standing in

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Speaker 1: line and the thought occurred to me going in like,

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Speaker 1: you know what there, someone could try, this could be it.

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Speaker 1: And it was very strange because I've never had that

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Speaker 1: thought before, and it was very like a marked kind

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Speaker 1: of moment, like, Okay, I guess this is how my

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Speaker 1: brain works now. And that is how our brains have

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Speaker 1: always handled the world around us as a constant as

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Speaker 1: a constant background noise of threat music. You know, the

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Speaker 1: music that plays in Kill Bill right before the bride

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Speaker 1: does anything. Your brain is always on some level playing

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Speaker 1: that music at a very low level. But it's because

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Speaker 1: our hardwiring, however antiquated it is, got us here by

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Speaker 1: being that way. So it was very very useful in

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Speaker 1: the past. It is still useful. Otherwise people wouldn't have it.

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Speaker 1: But what this means is that our brains treat every

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Speaker 1: innocuous argument like it could potentially be a fight to

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Speaker 1: the death. So, so, for instance, what's what's the most

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Speaker 1: what's the most innocuous argument, like the dumbest little thing

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Speaker 1: to argue with someone about, Like if you guys were arguing.

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Speaker 1: I had an argument one time about shoes. I was

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Speaker 1: about to say, shoes. Yeah, it's so funny. That was

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Speaker 1: literally that was the most innocuous argument I could have

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Speaker 1: thought of. A mutual friend of ours, Brie and I

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Speaker 1: got into a huge argument one time about the need

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Speaker 1: for new, like really expensive shoes and about how I

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Speaker 1: only had one pair of shoes. That was exactly the

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Speaker 1: thing that I was going to say, We'll see, there

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Speaker 1: you go, that's weird. You guys have group minds. Mine

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Speaker 1: was going to be a hypothetical. I have this argument,

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Speaker 1: but that was literally going to be what it was.

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Speaker 1: That's very strange. Well, so okay, So even if if

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Speaker 1: it's this question about new exclusive Jordan's, or if it's

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Speaker 1: a question about what sort of shoes are best suited

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Speaker 1: to what sort of event, right, ultimately, if you have

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Speaker 1: a horse in the race, if you have a badger

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Speaker 1: in the bag on this one. Then you your brain

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Speaker 1: is going to treat it as though it potentially will

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Speaker 1: be a situation where one where you have to thunderdome

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Speaker 1: it and one of you is going to die, and

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Speaker 1: it's an unconscious thing. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is

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Speaker 1: why stuff they don't want you to know is covering

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Speaker 1: the topic of argument, because it's not the kind of

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Speaker 1: thing we would usually cover, right, m Yeah, it's I

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Speaker 1: think this falls in line really well with the deceptive

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Speaker 1: brain series that we do. Yeah, and that's because the

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Speaker 1: question is always who are they in this context? Well,

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Speaker 1: friends and neighbors, ladies and gentlemen, uh, future potential uh foes.

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Speaker 1: This is depending on how you feel about Jordan's this

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Speaker 1: is a situation where the they are you, or at

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Speaker 1: least your brain, your brains and the ancient Eldrich processes

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Speaker 1: that compel us to mistake our programming for free will.

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Speaker 1: And so now that we know that the game is

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Speaker 1: a with regular arguments, let's take it a step further.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean, Let's look a technology. What

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Speaker 1: is it like when you can argue with someone that

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Speaker 1: you will never have to meet in real life? Do

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Speaker 1: you have just do you guys have a story. Okay,

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Speaker 1: have a really quick story to tell, and it I

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Speaker 1: think matches up where the real world and then the

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Speaker 1: avatar that you are when you're speaking or typing online

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Speaker 1: kind of meat. So there's this game when I was

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Speaker 1: in middle school called Ultimate Online and it was really cool.

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Speaker 1: It is a new game and you could do all

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Speaker 1: these things. Well, I spent way too much time playing

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Speaker 1: this game. I got a character to seven x GM,

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Speaker 1: which means in seven times grand master, you have a hundred.

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Speaker 1: You have seven skills that are at one hundred, which

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Speaker 1: takes forever. And I mean, really we're talking. I don't

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Speaker 1: know six to eight months that I spent on this

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Speaker 1: one character, and I bought a boat, I got all

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Speaker 1: this stuff like I was, I was riding high back

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Speaker 1: in middle schools, like, oh man, this is awesome. Uh So,

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Speaker 1: when way they made a change to the game where

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Speaker 1: in certain spaces you weren't safe anymore. Someone could take

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Speaker 1: things from you, pickpocket you right or even attack you

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Speaker 1: and the guards wouldn't come or whatever. Anyway, I got

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Speaker 1: pickpocketed and my boat got stolen with all my stuff,

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Speaker 1: and I basically was going to rage quit the game,

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Speaker 1: but there was this function into inside the game where

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Speaker 1: you could call a a GM a game master also GM,

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Speaker 1: that's weird, but anyway, you could call them. And it

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Speaker 1: was a human sitting at their computer who was like

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Speaker 1: helping run the game, who would come in a character

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Speaker 1: and talk to you. And this character came up and I,

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Speaker 1: basically as this little kid, was arguing for about thirty minutes,

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Speaker 1: yelling like vitriol about how could this happen? I spent

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Speaker 1: all this time. I love this game, Please get my

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Speaker 1: boat back, help me. This sucks. And then I said

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Speaker 1: awful things to this person because I was so furious

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Speaker 1: that I I don't even remember exactly what I wrote

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Speaker 1: to the guy, but it was just in text, coming

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Speaker 1: up in a little bubble above my characters. And well

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Speaker 1: that's important to remember too, is you know there's no

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Speaker 1: context in text. It seems funny to say, but I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's like you. It just comes across like you.

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Speaker 1: You have one side of the meaning of the words,

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Speaker 1: because you're missing an entire, incredibly important component, which is

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Speaker 1: your body language, the tone of your voice, the sound

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Speaker 1: of your voice, the oscillations of your volume up and down,

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Speaker 1: things like that, and a lot of people talk with

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Speaker 1: their hands and the other there's just a whole nuance

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Speaker 1: that's missing from online conversation, and it can work both ways.

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Speaker 1: It can either make you come off as extra mean

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Speaker 1: or you know that people get confused. Maybe you're saying

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Speaker 1: something that's meant to be a joke, and if you

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Speaker 1: had heard say it in their voice, it would be

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Speaker 1: very clear they were being sarcastic, but it was a joke.

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Speaker 1: But when you type it out and there's none of

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Speaker 1: those nuances, it's very easy to mistake it as someone

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Speaker 1: being a jerk. Well, that's one of the primary differences

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Speaker 1: between most online interactions versus real life interactions. Another one

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Speaker 1: would be that everyone in an online interaction has the

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Speaker 1: ability to pretend to be more knowledgeable than they are

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Speaker 1: by opening another table at your fingertips, especially now. Back then,

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Speaker 1: I was on a dial up on a o L

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Speaker 1: and that's how I was connecting to No. I did

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Speaker 1: not get my boat back. I explains a lot about

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Speaker 1: like you, because I never got my boat. But it

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Speaker 1: is funny though, how I transferred my anger and my

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Speaker 1: rage from that guy, from the person who stole my

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Speaker 1: stuff to this game master who had nothing to do

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Speaker 1: with it. Yeah, completely, an equivalent of yelling at someone

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Speaker 1: on like Comcast customer support or something exactly has nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with it. It's just my job to help out,

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Speaker 1: but your I can't deal with you right now. And

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Speaker 1: I would say that's a little bit different because the

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Speaker 1: person who was bearing the brunt of the of the

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Speaker 1: frustration and was paid to be there and was not

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Speaker 1: passionately telling you that you had to have better shoes

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Speaker 1: or something. So, because we are, as we said, hardwired

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Speaker 1: for survival, let's look a little bit at what what

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Speaker 1: happens in these online arguments when you are in situations

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Speaker 1: with high stress or you have fear or you're suspicious. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's a hormone called cortisol which floods your brain. And

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Speaker 1: when this happens, all the all the cool cognitive neighborhoods

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Speaker 1: in the frontier brain, like all all the all the hip,

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Speaker 1: new up and coming areas. Evolutionarily speaking, uh, they don't

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Speaker 1: function as well. These would be executive functions. They're like strategy,

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Speaker 1: trust building, empathy, compassion, and instead, one of Noel's favorite

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Speaker 1: parts of the brain kicks in, and that is the amygdala.

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Speaker 1: This is the part that makes a choice about how

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Speaker 1: best to protect the body. And this thing, which is

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Speaker 1: a very old part of your brain, is the one

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Speaker 1: that says, all right, look, body, we are very close

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Speaker 1: to losing it all in this, in this dangerous, dangerous

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Speaker 1: game of Russian roulette that we confused with a pleasant conversation.

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Speaker 1: We have several choices. We can fight, possibly to the death.

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Speaker 1: We can run as fast as we can, we can freeze,

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Speaker 1: or we can try to kiss there. But I don't

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Speaker 1: know what. I don't know it'll work better for you.

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Speaker 1: But your brain usually is gonna say fight or flee. Yes,

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Speaker 1: the the I like that idea of a strategic but

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Speaker 1: kiss that your brain decides to make. And and this

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Speaker 1: is just for arguments when you when you're arguing with

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Speaker 1: someone you don't know that well, you don't have that

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Speaker 1: much of a steak in there, you know. It's this

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Speaker 1: is an argument where uh, maybe Noel meet somebody in

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Speaker 1: line to grab lunch or something and they just say

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Speaker 1: something very offensive and you say, hold on though, that's

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Speaker 1: that's not that's not true actually, because blah blah blah,

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Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, oh, look at make beardy over here,

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Speaker 1: Look at the pants on this guy. Get the pants

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Speaker 1: on this guy, big boy pants. I love the idea

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Speaker 1: that all of a sudden, everything just stops in time.

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Speaker 1: Noel turns around and then you just hear that and

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, it's a fight to the death.

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Speaker 1: What is that? It's the Star Trek. Yeah, that's also

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Speaker 1: me calling all my bearded compatriots. I knew you guys

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Speaker 1: traveled in packs. I didn't want to say it because

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Speaker 1: they don't want to prejudice be you know, open with

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Speaker 1: my prejudices. But it's like, why are there always those

428
00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: like other eleven guys hanging out waiting for you. I

429
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 1: can't tell you the secret. I've literally never seen you

430
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 1: walking in a pack of less than twelve bearded men.

431
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 1: You know, there's safety and numbers, my friend, I guess, so, well,

432
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: it looks good, I think have Yeah, well that's a

433
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 1: different episodes of what you do. You just grow your

434
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,719
Speaker 1: beard out a little bit and then maybe we'll welcome

435
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 1: you into the fold. I don't know, man, I don't

436
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 1: know if I'm ready cool trader. So so, but let's say,

437
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 1: like going back to this hypothetical situation. No, let's say

438
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 1: that you are in a long standing argument a deep

439
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 1: seated rivalry, one of those arguments that has continued for

440
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: some reason for years and years and years, and we'll

441
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 1: never reach a conclusion. In fact, it's further and further

442
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: away from a conclusion. You have, like some Edison tesla

443
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: kind of deep seated uh, deep seated disgusted for one another. Well,

444
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: it turns out your brain functions in an even stranger

445
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,400
Speaker 1: way at that point. Now your brain has gone from

446
00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 1: sort of betraying you by making you a little bit

447
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: er two um or a little bit less rational. It's

448
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 1: a more fair way to say it, uh, to giving

449
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 1: you a little bit of something that might be like

450
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: a mad, mad genius superpower. So in this study at

451
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 1: the University College of London, a guy named Professor Summer

452
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: Zecky scan the brains of these test subjects as they

453
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: looked at photos of someone they hated. And I still

454
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 1: don't know how they got these photos. I guess the

455
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: person said, oh I hate this person. Must have been

456
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: celebrities or something. Right, Well, I mean the methodology is

457
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: in the study. No, it's fairly sound. So Professor Zecki

458
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: found that everyone's brain has what he called a hate circuit,

459
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: and it connects three regions the superior frontal gyrus, Uh,

460
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: the Putamen, and the medial insula. The activity in these

461
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: regions correlates with the experience of hate. So if someone

462
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: says to you like, oh, I don't who's the celebrity

463
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 1: Ryan Gosling? Okay, So if someone says to you, know,

464
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 1: I don't hate Ryan Gosling, you can check to see

465
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: if they're telling the truth by showing them a picture

466
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 1: of Ryan Gosling and seeing if the superior frontal gyris, Putaman,

467
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,640
Speaker 1: and the medial insula have a higher level of activity

468
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 1: that means they hate this guy. I love the idea

469
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: of walking up to someone in the street be like,

470
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 1: do you hate Ryan Gosling? No? No, No, hold on

471
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 1: they equipment or anyone. And this this circuit is distinct.

472
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: It includes parts of the cortex subcortex that generate aggressive

473
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: behavior and translate this into action through motor planning, which

474
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: means like a very small individual size version of war

475
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: games or you know, modeling, strategic modeling. If then right,

476
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: if they swing first, I'm gonna duck put a put

477
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: a foot up in their growing or something like that.

478
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 1: I have that with a couple of kids in middle

479
00:27:55,400 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 1: school because of my dorkins, like you know, and there

480
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: are those kids that that you you think about, how

481
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: am I going to react if you're you know, a bully?

482
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 1: I guess something like that. Did you guys ever have

483
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: something like that where you're you have just planning on

484
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: how am I going to interact with this person next time?

485
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: And if then in order to keep yourself from being bullied? Yes,

486
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: like like a good singer to get Like I guess

487
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 1: what a why a comedian learns to be a comedian

488
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: at a young age? Right, that's the kind of thing. Yes,

489
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: this this is something that I'm sure a lot of

490
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 1: people do. And you know, listeners, we're collectively a pretty

491
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: diverse group, the three of us here in the studio,

492
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: everybody out there listening and writing in and helping us

493
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: find the next episode of a show. So some of

494
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: you are doubtlessly in middle school right now, in high

495
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: school right now, maybe I think I don't think there's

496
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: anybody younger than middle school age listening to the show. So, uh,

497
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 1: some of you are in maybe middle school, high school

498
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 1: right now, and and you're aware you've seen this kind

499
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: of stuff happened before. I hope you are not bullying anybody.

500
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: I also hope you're not being bullied. But it is

501
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: a it is a true skill, and it's one of

502
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: those um abstract cognitive superpowers that separates humanity from most,

503
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: but not all, other animals. And here's the thing about

504
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: when you really hate someone. We did this in our

505
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: Deceptive Brain series. All Right, when you're in love, you

506
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: have less activity in the parts of your brain that

507
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: have objectivity and judgment. So like you've seen one of

508
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: your friends date someone who's just an absolute piece of garbage,

509
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: and and they're like, oh, no, you know, uh, Donovan

510
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: or Samantha or whatever is just going through a lot.

511
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: They they need a little money, but their hearts in

512
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: the right place, and you know, they love their three kids,

513
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: but they can't talk to them because of their schedule,

514
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: and and they're like, you know, Donovan or something there

515
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,719
Speaker 1: whomever doesn't sound like the most up and up character, right,

516
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: And they're like, but no, I love him, or you know,

517
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: I love her or whatever. I think we've all been

518
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: in those situations. Yeah, that's almost another copying mechanism that

519
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: your brain sort of you know, circumvents uh common irrational

520
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: rational thought by allowing you to kind of explain away

521
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: some of these these pretty deal breaking shortcomings. So even

522
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: though the circuit for hate is distinct, it has a

523
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: little bit in common. It runs in some of the

524
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: same circles as the love circuit, which we cover in

525
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: that deceptive brain video, with one really important difference. Brains

526
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: experiencing hate retain activity in the objectivity and judgment areas,

527
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: which means you are better prepared not only to plan

528
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: your next move, but to calculate the next move of

529
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: your opponent. This does not happen when you are just

530
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: arguing with some random stranger in the internet. This happens

531
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: people that you hate. So if you have this kind

532
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: of experience, it can keep you smart, which in terms

533
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: of maybe cunning is a better word. Right, So does

534
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: this apply online? We did a video earlier where we

535
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: talked about why you cannot win arguments online, and you know,

536
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are loads of folks out here listening

537
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: who are thinking like I used to think. Well, I

538
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: did actually win several arguments online bends, So if you

539
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: want to argue about it, check out you know, check

540
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: out your email right at this thread. However, no, you

541
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: named one of the biggest reasons that it's difficult to

542
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: win an argument online when you said body language, right,

543
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: body language is missing. Yeah, and I also think that, like,

544
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: I mean, there's no moderate moderator in an online argument,

545
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 1: so I mean everyone kind of walks away feeling the

546
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: same way as they did when they went in, you know,

547
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: like I'm no one ever really gets their mind changed.

548
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 1: Oh and since there's no neutral third party to say,

549
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: you know, X or Y won the debate, it's just

550
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: all about mud slinging and just it devolves usually into

551
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: just personal insults because essentially you're missing more than half

552
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: of what people are actually saying when you cut out, uh,

553
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: the ability to interpret their body language, their intonation, the

554
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: sound of their voice like I was saying, earl. Oh. Yeah,

555
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: let's get into this because there's a there's a little

556
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: bit of myth busting we need to do, but there's

557
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: also a little bit of uh, revelatory stuff we need

558
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: We need to show people here because we have some

559
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: numbers on this. You've probably heard this before. Research shows

560
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: only about what we're actually saying matters. People are paying

561
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: more attendant to your body language, etcetera. Lately that's actually

562
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: been amended pretty significantly to say fifty of communication is

563
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: actually body language is the tone of voice, and seven

564
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: wow the actual words. So okay, so this is this

565
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: measure up. Let's look at this the history behind these numbers.

566
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: They're often quoted and the percentages are often misunderstood. They

567
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: come from a guy named Albert Mehrabian. Albert Mehrabian is

568
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 1: responsible for this this breakdown, right uh, and he was.

569
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: He did a lot of research detailing the importance of

570
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: non verbal communication channels. Right because we've seen people who

571
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: speak very seldom lee, but the rest of what they

572
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: are still being very talkative, the lack of a better

573
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: term in in the ways in which they carry themselves. Right. Uh.

574
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: We we have a couple of coworkers who speak rarely

575
00:33:55,080 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: but is still communicate very well. So this act tually comes.

576
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: This number comes from two different research studies, both in

577
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 1: the sixties, and they combined together, uh to modify that

578
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 1: sixt nonverbal verbal thing into the fifty thirty, eight and

579
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 1: seven because they figured out that intonation does matter that much. Right.

580
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:24,479
Speaker 1: Sarcasm uh still is very difficult for people to read

581
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: based on text alone. There are some ways that you

582
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 1: can get around some of the sarcasm and some of

583
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 1: those things. Now I know on Twitch in particular, they

584
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: have actually come up with an emoji that when you're

585
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: being sarcastic, you throw the emoji somewhere in the message,

586
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: which is kind of an interesting way that uh communication

587
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 1: is being is evolving. I think eventually there will be

588
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 1: something that you'll be able to denote sarcasm simply by

589
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: with a click or absolutely I mean, or you know,

590
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: for example, using an exclamation point, where when an exclamation

591
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,760
Speaker 1: point was missing, a sentence might come off as demure

592
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 1: or like sounding like, you know, you're not very enthusiastic

593
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 1: about something. But if you have that exclamation point maybe

594
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: two or three, then the person that you're chatting with

595
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 1: or texting with, you know, knows that you're being upbeat

596
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,760
Speaker 1: about something. I mean, there's all kinds of little work arounds,

597
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: not to mention all of the emojis that you know,

598
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: we have access to, just like through you know, androids

599
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,439
Speaker 1: and iPhones, but that is, that is if the other

600
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: person that you're speaking with understands those symbols and those

601
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: messages that you're trying to get across, because ultimately it's

602
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 1: just characters, and this leads into something that's an interesting

603
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: bit of history, which I'll probably pitch to Holly and

604
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 1: Tracy over at Stuff You Missed in History Class one

605
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: of our Pure podcast. There have been numerous attempts to

606
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: create new punctuation characters that denote stuff like an interra

607
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: bang which is a question mark but also an exclamation point,

608
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: or an irony mark or a mark to donate uh sarcasm. However,

609
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: these haven't really caught on, so at this point we're

610
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: stuck with clarity of communication. The big misunderstanding about this

611
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 1: seven rule is that it is a hard and fast

612
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: rule all the time. That's that doesn't make sense because

613
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 1: people communicate so differently across the world. What it does

614
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 1: show us is that in any instance, what how you're saying,

615
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: what you're saying, what you're doing with your body while

616
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: you say it matters way more than people might think. Also,

617
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,760
Speaker 1: intent has a lot to do with it, like, for example,

618
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:31,320
Speaker 1: an internet troll um is communicating for the sole purpose

619
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: of rilling people up. So not only will they use

620
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 1: language and phrasing in such a way that will ruffle people,

621
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,839
Speaker 1: they're actually being very pointed and targeted and what they're

622
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: saying and creating these argumentative threads, and a lot of

623
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: times you'll see message boards where you know there's somebody

624
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 1: on there, and as I later identified as a troll,

625
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: only after like people kind of react and say, oh,

626
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: you idiot, blah blah blah, you're so full of it

627
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: about and then someone will be like he got old,

628
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 1: you know X y Z two thousand and sixteen, gotsia

629
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: or whatever. You know. I mean, it's the thing. You

630
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 1: see it all the time, and they're a little bit different,

631
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 1: I think in there in the chemical processes that occur

632
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,439
Speaker 1: in the brain during trolling, because it's not The point

633
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 1: is not to win an argument, you know what I mean,

634
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: The point is to uh derive some other sort of

635
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 1: cathartic thing that's true. And so do you think people

636
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 1: enter into online arguments really believing that they're going to win? Like,

637
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: do you think we delude ourselves into believing that we

638
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: actually have a chance of changing someone's mind? Uh? Sometimes

639
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 1: sometimes one thing that I think may even be more

640
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 1: common is when people are okay, So imagine a person

641
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: is like a cup and the fluid that a person

642
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 1: is filled up with is a belief, right, maybe that

643
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: belief is something like the best video game ever was

644
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: g t A or that jazz me music stincts except

645
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: for this one album, right, so or that you know,

646
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 1: my religion is right if we want to go to

647
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 1: that point. So this person, this cup is filled with

648
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 1: this this fluid of belief. And this fluid, you know,

649
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: like any other fluid, adheres to the it conforms the

650
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 1: shape of its container. And then when it overflows, maybe

651
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 1: an event happens in the news that's like an ice

652
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 1: cube or something dropping in and that raises the fluid

653
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 1: and then it starts to pour over into the outside world.

654
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: So I'm trying to be very kind when I say this,

655
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 1: but my instinct says that often people just want to

656
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 1: express the thing they already believe rather than um think

657
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: critically about it. So maybe maybe you've grown up hearing

658
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: that the only real metal is cradle of filth. Right, Okay,

659
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 1: I don't want to get in trouble at the metal audience.

660
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: This is just for the sake of argument. So you,

661
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: as a cup have been filled with this thing that

662
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,479
Speaker 1: says only metal is cradle of filth, the only medal

663
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: is cradle of filth. Yes, And and by going out

664
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 1: and saying it like like just going out in the world,

665
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: and some even if it's just on a little online forums,

666
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: when we're in saying that, it's it's almost like you

667
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: were trying to reinforce your own belief. Yes, and you're

668
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: and you're attempting to find like manded people. So you

669
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: guys can all sit together and say, the only medal

670
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 1: is great to live filth. The only medal is great

671
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: to live filth. And the reason this the reason this happens,

672
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: and this is a very crude analogy, but the reason

673
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 1: this happens is because of kind of a tribalistic pact mentality.

674
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: And we are much more like uh, we are much

675
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: more um synthesizing creatures than we are original thinkers. So

676
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,839
Speaker 1: we take stuff that has already existed in our cup

677
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: and we just let the cup overfloweth you know what

678
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: I mean. We're are not actually making the thoughts in

679
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: many cases. So you can also see these online arguments

680
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: that are very impassion as proxy wars because someone who

681
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: didn't actually invent the thought just heard it so much

682
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 1: they believed it was true, heard it so much they

683
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,240
Speaker 1: believed it was true, they they end up just being

684
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 1: kind of a puppet of a pre existing opinion to

685
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: another puppet of a pre existing opinion, And it's a

686
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 1: sad thing, but it's a reality. Another reason you can't

687
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: win a lot of arguments online is that the act

688
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 1: of arguing tends to reinforce those pre existing opinions. So

689
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: if I am a cuppet, I'm overflowing with the only

690
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 1: medal is creadle of filth and then uh, Matt, you

691
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 1: or you knowl or you listeners say well, technically, I

692
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: looked up the definition of metal and while creadle of filth,

693
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:53,359
Speaker 1: maybe your favorite of this genre and it's many subgenres,

694
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 1: it is factually inaccurate to say that it is the

695
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: only example. So, confronted with the facts, what would I do? Well,

696
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 1: do we have those those three options from earlier in

697
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 1: the show, fight, fight or peas? I don't know if

698
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: people would appease um. It's rare for people to roll

699
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: over and show their belly and online because you know,

700
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 1: there's such anonymity. Well, here's what Brendan Nihan and a

701
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 1: guy named Jason Rifler discovered. They discovered something they called

702
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: the backfire effect, which means that if you guys had

703
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 1: like a metal intervention, with me and said, here are

704
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: several other Battle albums. Furthermore, here's some albums that if

705
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: you like Cradle of Filth you will probably enjoy immensely.

706
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 1: And if I still thought that same thought, just running

707
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,320
Speaker 1: like an ear worm through my head, then what I

708
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: would end up doing is saying no, no, guys are wrong,

709
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 1: we're not friends. You don't know what you're talking about.

710
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 1: Your offensive, you're stupid, downboat dislike hands up. And the

711
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 1: funny thing is is, like, you know you can get

712
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,439
Speaker 1: away with that stuff online, I guess because no one's

713
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: really trying to be your friend. Um. But you know,

714
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,800
Speaker 1: if a buddy of yours kept behaving that way, probably

715
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 1: find a new buddy, you know what I mean. Just

716
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that everyone has to be the same,

717
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: but when people just are inherently closed minded and closed

718
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 1: off to any other possibilities other than what they believe

719
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 1: to be the case, it's just not any fun to

720
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,399
Speaker 1: talk to him, you know, it's just not And even

721
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 1: if you're into arguing, that gets all real quick, you know,

722
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: especially on something as arbitrary is you know, Creadle of

723
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 1: Filth is the only medal. It's making me think of

724
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 1: the concept that thoughts can be viral or are in

725
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: a way neural viruses. The medic Yeah, yeah, and some

726
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: of the kind of takes me back to the Invisibles

727
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:54,720
Speaker 1: and Filth and some of the work with Great Morrison,

728
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 1: just some of the ideas that if you have a

729
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: thought that is dangerous enough in you are able to

730
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,320
Speaker 1: spread it. The thought itself is a thing that is dangerous,

731
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,720
Speaker 1: not whatever comes of it. Right, Does a thought function

732
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 1: as essential being? Yeah, it's it's a it's an interesting idea,

733
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: and it's something that we've talked about off air, which

734
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 1: you know, I would love to I would love to

735
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 1: explore in the future episode two, because we're already we're

736
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: already at this in this situation where the evidence or

737
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 1: the truth of whatever something might be doesn't necessarily matter.

738
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 1: The backfire effect is related to confirmation bias. Confirmation bias

739
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: of course, where if you think of yourself as a skeptic,

740
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 1: and you say, if you think of yourself as a skeptic,

741
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 1: then you should be saying, I am interested to hear

742
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 1: about this UFO report and see what, if anything is

743
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 1: anomalous about it. Many people who confuse themselves with skeptics

744
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 1: practice confirmation bias and say aliens are not real where

745
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: I heard the term conspiracy theory. Therefore whatever follows after

746
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: this is automatically wrong. If anything, that's the opposite of skepticism.

747
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,760
Speaker 1: So in a situation where the evidence or the truth

748
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily matter, when people on any conversation from closely

749
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 1: held personal values like religion or politics two very arbitrary

750
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: stuff like Anchorman one versus income mare and two, or

751
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: pepsi versus coke or whatever, what we find is that, again,

752
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 1: our brains are hardwired to prize feeling correct over being correct,

753
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 1: even when there's not, even when there's not really a

754
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: correct answer, Like I don't know, you guys feel a

755
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:40,720
Speaker 1: bit if it's a soda. It's a soda. It's a soda.

756
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: You might have your favorite, but I don't think there's

757
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 1: an inherently superior one. Well, it's like you said at

758
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 1: the beginning to it's it's the difference between argument being

759
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 1: this functional kind of um defense mechanism where you are

760
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 1: actually protecting yourself against something. Now it's almost more like

761
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 1: a sport, you know, And that's certainly how people treated

762
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,240
Speaker 1: online a lot of the time. I mean, it's definitely,

763
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 1: you are trying to get that I guess dopamine release

764
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 1: that comes from the satisfaction of feeling like you have

765
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,280
Speaker 1: won or you are right, you know, even if you aren't,

766
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 1: and almost it's benefits you maybe ignore the fact that

767
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 1: you're not right right. Yeah, Ben, you said something in

768
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 1: the video that I thought it was fantastic. You're like,

769
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 1: this idea of being right is is addictive, and so

770
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 1: much so that it is a drug that you The

771
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: feeling of being right all the time would be such

772
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,240
Speaker 1: an all encompassing feeling that you would want to chase

773
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 1: and chase and chase. You said it would be like

774
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 1: if you're Kanye West, like that feeling of everything I

775
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: say I believe is right and and it doesn't matter

776
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: what anybody else says. I believe that this is right.

777
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: And so it's just I was trying to imagine what

778
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 1: that would feel like. Constantly, you guys are both on point.

779
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 1: Wit We're getting to this very important thing here that

780
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:06,320
Speaker 1: you can become physy, physically addicted to this dopamine and

781
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 1: adrenaline rush, dopamine triumph that occurs when you think I

782
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 1: am right. Yeah, I'm not even listening to you the

783
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 1: only medal is creadle of filth, dopamine, dopamine, dopamine. I

784
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 1: mean this, it's a it's a strange thing. And again,

785
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 1: you know, I'm just mentioning creadle of filth and metal

786
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 1: for the sake of argument. Yeah, I mean, we're all

787
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:34,359
Speaker 1: stars now on the Dopamine Show. Thanks Marilyn. Shout out

788
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: to Marilyn Manson. So when yeah, so when you argue,

789
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: when your your brain rather floods with these different chemicals

790
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:47,399
Speaker 1: and they even make you feel invincible. So the next

791
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: time you're in a tense situation, your brain remembers right,

792
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 1: and your brain says, let's fight. We don't need to

793
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: run because if we run, we don't get the rush.

794
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: Fight for the rush. Yet, let's say let's say that

795
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 1: all of us listening now, all of us on the show, now,

796
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 1: say that each of us has some sort of amazing

797
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 1: revelation and we are able to transcend these things, and

798
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 1: we say, you know what, you guys, I'm sorry. I

799
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 1: was being such a piece of crap about it. It

800
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,800
Speaker 1: was cartoonist that I believe there was only one metal

801
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 1: band in the world, And in retrospect it's weird and

802
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: I appreciate you guys for being so honest with me

803
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 1: and listening to me. I apologize. Let me take you

804
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 1: guys out to the Dave and Busters. Let's see that

805
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:45,399
Speaker 1: we were all capable of doing that. Well, there's still

806
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 1: another problem, another reason that you may not be able

807
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 1: to win arguments online because your chances of finding an argument,

808
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:57,240
Speaker 1: finding a contradicting opinion, even if it's correct, are lowering

809
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 1: at a continued rate. We're talking about something called the

810
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: search bubble. So what what is this? This is the

811
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 1: thing you may have noticed recently and when you're just

812
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 1: on Google or really any other search bar, or on

813
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: Facebook or some other social media network that you use.

814
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 1: What's getting uh supplied to you, to your feed or

815
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 1: to your search results is more and more. It's being

816
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 1: customized for you for what you've searched for in the past,

817
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 1: for what you like on Facebook in particular, or what

818
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: you what you buy. Even a lot of times it's

819
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 1: matched up with your credit cards, which is a little

820
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:42,359
Speaker 1: bit creepy um. And it's happening because mostly advertisers want

821
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:46,320
Speaker 1: you to have what you want and you know, and

822
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 1: that's getting into maybe even places where your news sources.

823
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 1: The types of news sources on your news feed are

824
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 1: going to be different. Are you saying even non sponsored posts,

825
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 1: like just normal things that you like that come up

826
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,399
Speaker 1: in your feed are reorganized and reordered based on your

827
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 1: browsing behavior. That's really creepy. Yeah, that's why. Yeah, that's why.

828
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 1: If you're signed into Google and you're on Chrome or

829
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 1: something like that, your results are going to be different

830
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 1: than if you're just not signed in anywhere and using Google,

831
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,839
Speaker 1: using Google Chrome on a different computer. And here how

832
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 1: dramatic these differences can become. You can use search engines

833
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,800
Speaker 1: that strip some of the personalized information that Google uses.

834
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 1: Uh there's Duck Duck Go and scroogle, and you'll see

835
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 1: that the search results you get do differ almost regardless

836
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 1: of what you look up. Yeah. It scares me sometimes

837
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 1: when I'll type in stuff somewhere on a computer and

838
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 1: then stuff they don't want, you know, shows, I'm like, yeah, awesome, man.

839
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 1: Oh wait oh. So there's a Ted talk you can

840
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 1: watch about this if you're interested in learning more by

841
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 1: a fellow named Eli Harris or Priser, the author of

842
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,959
Speaker 1: a book called The Filter Bubble, and he's talking about

843
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 1: this personalized search so as they say in an excellent

844
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:08,800
Speaker 1: article on you Are Not So Smart dot com. The

845
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:11,439
Speaker 1: media of the future may be delivered based not only

846
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 1: on your preferences, right, whatever you looked up, Yes, even

847
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 1: in incognito mode, h it will be. It will also

848
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:23,359
Speaker 1: be based on your voting record, your medical records, where

849
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 1: you grew up, your projected mood, the time of day,

850
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 1: the time of year, maybe even information gleaned from your

851
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 1: text message conversations. Right, even public records like perhaps how

852
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 1: much you make if you work in a public pose,

853
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 1: as you applied for a loan recently? Are you getting

854
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 1: dental work? Why? Yeah? Did you make in an usual purchase?

855
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 1: And the biggest one, are you about to have or

856
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 1: have already had a baby recently? I don't know, man.

857
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 1: Another big one that makes me uncomfortable is when I

858
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 1: see when I'm hanging out with a friend and for

859
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 1: some reason, it's almost all the way one of my

860
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,320
Speaker 1: female friends and I see, like, wow, you have a

861
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 1: lot of ads for engagement rings and diamonds, and that

862
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:09,720
Speaker 1: seems to me. That seems so unfair because we already

863
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:16,320
Speaker 1: live in a society that tolerates pushing people to do

864
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,799
Speaker 1: uh ritualistic things that maybe don't even apply in our

865
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 1: society at this point. It's it's a form of it

866
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 1: is of it as if how from space obviously two

867
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:29,800
Speaker 1: thousand one decided to pester you to the point of bullying.

868
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 1: You know what I mean, I know it's not it's

869
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 1: not the best, but hey, maybe it's all wrong right now.

870
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:37,919
Speaker 1: Maybe we can just maybe we can be better. Maybe

871
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:43,760
Speaker 1: we can have rational discourse, throw off those old social

872
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 1: dynamic rules. What do you think? Maybe it's it's it's been.

873
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 1: It's not a fair fight though, you know, I mean,

874
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 1: our odds are pretty abysmal. You don't think we can

875
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 1: evolve past the physiological limits of the brain and break

876
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 1: free of these algorithms that keep us from discovering things

877
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 1: that may change our view of the world because we're

878
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 1: a star stuff after all. You know, I I don't know.

879
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: You're right. Maybe our odds don't look good, but I

880
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 1: think there are there are older pieces of you know what,

881
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 1: I'll take a page from el Round Hubbard's book and

882
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:23,719
Speaker 1: call it cognitive technology. H The Socratic method is an

883
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 1: excellent way to explore differing opinions. Of course, it takes time.

884
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 1: A lot of people don't have it and a lot

885
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:34,760
Speaker 1: of people when you're in an argument online. I don't know, listeners,

886
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 1: if you ever played this game as kids where you

887
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 1: were like you had invisible guns, do you remember this

888
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 1: this game? Oh we're gonna pick two sides or whatever.

889
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 1: Um So the the the thing that happens with that is,

890
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 1: you know, like if we're playing this, if you if

891
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: you're not in a family like yours met and you're

892
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 1: playing with invisible guns, one thing you'll notice is a

893
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 1: lot of people say, oh, I got you, and then

894
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 1: someone's like you, No, you didn't. That's what That's what

895
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 1: internet argument is. It's imaginary bullets, imaginary weapons, and people

896
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: are expecting to play the honors system on who got shot.

897
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,399
Speaker 1: So of course I don't think it's gonna work out.

898
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: But these are things to keep in mind. And we

899
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:19,800
Speaker 1: would like to hear what you think about the strange

900
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 1: ways in which our brains deceive us and force us

901
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 1: to think that we are living in a different era,

902
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 1: and the the way which one of the main conspirators

903
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:36,800
Speaker 1: in your quest for any factual thing, any truth, maybe

904
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:41,239
Speaker 1: an inside job, maybe the person in in between your

905
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 1: ears all along and it's not your fault. These are

906
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 1: processes older than civilization. Yeah, we need to find a

907
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 1: way to suppress the amygdala. Ben but I feel like

908
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,800
Speaker 1: that's a terrible that would be an awful world to

909
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 1: live in. Oh, I don't know. I'm sure people have

910
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 1: conducted experiments like that. You know, we we do know

911
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 1: that it does change brain function when you reduce electrical

912
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:08,840
Speaker 1: activity in one part of the brain, even using an

913
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 1: external source like uh t DCS, right, which still is

914
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 1: somehow it's not illegal, right, but no one will sell

915
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:19,680
Speaker 1: me one. I'm gonna have to just build one. We

916
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:21,800
Speaker 1: can do it. I'm probably gonna give myself brain damage,

917
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna do it. Uh anyhow. Oh, and listeners,

918
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:27,800
Speaker 1: if you know of a tc a t DCS device, please,

919
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 1: uh yes, send one our way, right in our way.

920
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 1: But before we go, it's time for some feedback and

921
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:39,799
Speaker 1: some listener mail. Listening mail, listening. Man, Now, it's time

922
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 1: for listening, all right. So we had a lot of

923
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:47,840
Speaker 1: feedback from our political conspiracy episode, and we had some

924
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:51,320
Speaker 1: different views that we wanted to share with share with

925
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 1: everybody else listening. And there were also a couple of

926
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:57,879
Speaker 1: things that I wanted to amend or corrections, which which

927
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:02,840
Speaker 1: We're grateful for all of these. So Kelly M wrote

928
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 1: into us, and I'm gonna read a portion of this

929
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,839
Speaker 1: letter because I want to take a look at this. Uh.

930
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:13,279
Speaker 1: Kelly's talking specifically about the part where I kind of

931
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: went on a rant about my own personal opinion, which

932
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 1: again Noel especially thank you for pulling me off the

933
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 1: back from the ledge on that one. So Kelly Kelly

934
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,480
Speaker 1: says she likes the show. Uh. I don't usually have

935
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 1: a reason to write endo podcast, but something was said

936
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 1: during this episode that frustrated me. I apologize if it

937
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 1: was corrected later in the podcast. Felt the need to

938
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:36,279
Speaker 1: stop and write the email before finishing the podcast because

939
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:38,880
Speaker 1: I was afraid I forget if I waited. It was

940
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 1: stated that there should be a law that if someone

941
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:44,040
Speaker 1: in your immediate families and politics, you cannot hold the

942
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 1: same or similar office. I think that's just of what

943
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 1: was said. Correct me if I'm wrong. My problem with

944
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 1: this is that the way I was discussed in the

945
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 1: podcast was from a very white male viewpoint. Historically, those

946
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 1: who hold political office have been white men. Not in

947
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 1: all parts of the world, but you know, certainly US, Canada,

948
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 1: Western Europe for sure. So if the proposed law were

949
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:10,360
Speaker 1: an actual law in this country, it would disproportionately affect

950
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 1: women who are seeking public office. It would be much

951
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 1: more difficult for the goal of a fifty fifty representation

952
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:18,360
Speaker 1: in the House and at White House, et cetera to

953
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:21,880
Speaker 1: actually happen. The women who are using familial connections to

954
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 1: get into these positions of power are paving the way

955
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 1: for other women who do not necessarily have these connections.

956
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 1: While I agree with that family dynasties do not line

957
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:35,239
Speaker 1: up with the idea of America being a metocracy meritocracy,

958
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:39,320
Speaker 1: Let's be real, Can we really call America a meritocracy anymore?

959
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,439
Speaker 1: And I thought, you know, that's that's just a piece

960
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:45,839
Speaker 1: of Kelly's letter. But we talked about this off air,

961
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:50,320
Speaker 1: and I wanted to bring this to the rest of

962
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:54,399
Speaker 1: our audience. You know, Um, here's here's what I'm thinking.

963
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:56,720
Speaker 1: I over apply to this directly because it is my opinion.

964
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,480
Speaker 1: It seems that the argument is that the evil of

965
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 1: nepotism is a lesser evil in comparison to uh, the

966
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 1: greater evil of misogyny and prejudice against women in positions

967
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 1: of power or equality. Right, But the assumption I see

968
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 1: here is that there's this idea that by virtue of

969
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 1: being women, uh, people who are women and are elected

970
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:29,440
Speaker 1: via nepotistic or elitist means will inherently or inevitably or

971
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 1: necessarily help someone who is outside of that circle. I

972
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 1: don't know. That's a lot like trickle down economics. So

973
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 1: I while I see I see the opinion, I respect it,

974
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 1: I'm a little um, I'm a little more skeptical of

975
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 1: how that how well that would work. But again, one

976
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 1: of the things that everybody pointed out, including uh, Matt

977
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 1: and Nol on the podcast. When I talked about this,

978
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 1: and everybody on YouTube comments were like, well, I see

979
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:00,360
Speaker 1: where you're going with this law, Ben, but there's no

980
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 1: way to enforce it. Yeah, so it's somewhat of a

981
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 1: moot point. Well, and I and I slightly in in

982
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 1: after thinking about it for a long time, I slightly

983
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 1: disagree with the law, but I was gonna put forward

984
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 1: one that you had talked about before that I think

985
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 1: is even better. What's that one? Then? Instead of eliminating

986
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:25,480
Speaker 1: eliminating nepotism through familial means, I think we just eliminate

987
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 1: the ability to to hold office if you have ever

988
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:32,120
Speaker 1: been in a secret society. Oh yeah, I remember that one.

989
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 1: That was one of those three laws. What do you

990
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 1: think of that now? Um, kind of on the fence,

991
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:39,080
Speaker 1: you know, and depends on how much weight you put

992
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 1: behind the particular secret society. And what is a secret society?

993
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 1: Any society which is made secret from the public in

994
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:53,960
Speaker 1: membership and or in duty. Okay, it seems fair. I

995
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 1: cant go with that one. Uh. Also we have another.

996
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:01,920
Speaker 1: We have another slight correction here I had said, and

997
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,680
Speaker 1: I think this was me. We talked about the difficulty

998
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:07,920
Speaker 1: for felons to vote in the US. It is not

999
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 1: true that no felons can ever vote in US elections.

1000
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 1: It is true that goes state by state. There are

1001
00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 1: eleven states which do not allow which which are pretty

1002
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:22,680
Speaker 1: much do not allow felons to vote. However, there are

1003
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:26,200
Speaker 1: two states that have unrestricted voting for felons. Those are

1004
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 1: main and Vermont, where felons can vote in prison. Nice work, Vermont.

1005
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:35,120
Speaker 1: I did not know that. And the person to help

1006
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 1: illuminate us. Uh and hopefully you as well listeners with

1007
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 1: that h with that slight correction is Drew Richards, So

1008
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:45,560
Speaker 1: you get a shout out as well. Drew Thank you

1009
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 1: so much for your time, and thanks for checking out

1010
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:51,120
Speaker 1: the show, and even more importantly, thanks for keeping us honest.

1011
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 1: And one last mention here, I wanted to say thanks

1012
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 1: to Kelly d for putting us onto the Democracy Now

1013
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 1: episode called Dark Money. That's kind of a deep dive

1014
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 1: into the Koke Brothers and where that money goes and

1015
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:06,720
Speaker 1: super PACs and stuff. It was. It was cool, right,

1016
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 1: Uh no, and you got anything else? I think I'm good. Guys,

1017
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 1: All right, uh well, we are going to head off

1018
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:16,200
Speaker 1: and argue with each other old school, the old school

1019
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:19,120
Speaker 1: way in real life. I'm already shaking my fist at you.

1020
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:22,160
Speaker 1: You are you are? And did you know there's you know,

1021
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 1: there's some evidence that shaking your fists and this sky

1022
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 1: like that are holding it and that Darth Vader oppose

1023
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 1: increases pain tolerance. Story for another day. I'm gonna try

1024
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 1: that out later today. Yeah, try it out today and

1025
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:35,880
Speaker 1: report back and let us know if it works. Oh,

1026
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 1: you know, I do have one thing, but what's up?

1027
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 1: You know that we had Julie Douglas on a couple

1028
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:42,120
Speaker 1: of weeks ago last week talk about the stuff of life,

1029
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 1: and the show has launched in an episode that just

1030
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:47,040
Speaker 1: came out today, Uh, the day that we're recording. Rather

1031
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:51,760
Speaker 1: um is features you, Mr Bowling, if anyone wants to

1032
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:54,440
Speaker 1: that's true. I do a lot of things. Yeah, I'm

1033
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:56,919
Speaker 1: gonna go listen to that right after this. It gives

1034
01:00:56,920 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 1: you a little glimpse behind the Ben Bowling. Uh. Well,

1035
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:03,800
Speaker 1: I will say you know that of a high opinion

1036
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 1: of Julie Douglas, and you and Julie have been working

1037
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 1: in concert on this show for quite a while. Stuff

1038
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:13,880
Speaker 1: of Life, and it's kind of an immersive podcast experience,

1039
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:18,000
Speaker 1: you know, So immerse yourselves. In the meantime, we are

1040
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 1: going to be researching some exciting new stuff and we

1041
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 1: want to hear from you. So and that's the end

1042
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:29,080
Speaker 1: of this classic episode. If you have any thoughts or

1043
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 1: questions about this episode, you can get into contact with

1044
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 1: us in a number of different ways. One of the

1045
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 1: best is to give us a call. Our number is

1046
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:41,200
Speaker 1: one eight three three std w y t K. If

1047
01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:43,040
Speaker 1: you don't want to do that, you can send us

1048
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:46,240
Speaker 1: a good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at I

1049
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:49,960
Speaker 1: heart radio dot com. Stuff they Don't want you to

1050
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:52,760
Speaker 1: Know is a production of I Heart Radio. For more

1051
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 1: podcasts from my Heart radio, visit the I heart Radio app,

1052
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:58,520
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.