1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: If you're looking to commune with your dad. The website 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:08,399 Speaker 1: for the Southern Cassadega Spiritualist Camp offers a menu of 3 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: forty mediums at any given time, and thirty two of 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: them are women. Holy shit right. For the vast majority 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: of those mediums, it's a second act in their lives. 6 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: While a few were actually raised in the spiritualist tradition, 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: they're more likely to flock to the camp after careers 8 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: as teachers, as I T specialists, as astrologers, yoga instructors, realtors, 9 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: stay at home moms, paralegals, and my favorite Manhattan stockbrokers 10 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: who had crises of faith after nine eleven. For real. 11 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: There's a lot of different kinds of mediums here, and 12 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: this has always been a strength of the religion. I 13 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: think on this show, we've been exploring the story of 14 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: the Fox Sisters effectively considered the religions nineteenth century founders 15 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: and a number of the religion's most respected figures who 16 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: are also women. And yet, you know, we still live 17 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: in a society. I hate that phrase, but it's true. 18 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: In spiritualism, history contextualizes the way history often does. Male 19 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: spiritualists tend to be considered more academic, logic driven scientific 20 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: philosophers and scientists who popularize the ideas that became spiritualism 21 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: were men Emmanuel Swedenborg, Anton Mesmer, and Andrew Jackson Davis. 22 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: Women have always been extremely present in American spiritualism, but 23 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: like the Fox Sisters, were more likely to be framed 24 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: as intuitives as opposed to a more masculine academic and well, 25 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with a more traditionally feminine approach to 26 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: the religion. In fact, I really appreciated societally that will 27 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: always nearly translate to a little less influence and somewhat 28 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: less control over your own image basin point the Fox 29 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: Sisters themselves. Fortunately, because spiritualism is a modern religion, women 30 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: can publish and share their own experiences. So for this episode, 31 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: I was curious what the life of a modern medium 32 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,399 Speaker 1: in Cassadega was like, and since the majority of them 33 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: are women, I wanted to speak to women. We've been 34 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: talking a lot about my experiences in Cassadega in this show, 35 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: so this week I wanted to put things on pause 36 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,519 Speaker 1: a little bit and give some focus to four women 37 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: who have been there in Cassadega for years as mediums, 38 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 1: as healers, as workers, as organizers. I've encountered all four 39 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: of these Cassadegans at some point during my visit, and 40 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 1: they were the only people in the increasingly press averse 41 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: Cassadega to agree to interview with me on the record. 42 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: Poor little Jamie. So this episode is going to be 43 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: a little bit different. In our next episode and in 44 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: the back half of the show altogether, we're gonna look 45 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: at things like what became of those founding Fox Sisters, 46 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: how they grew to disclaim their own faith. Will take 47 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: a long overdue look at the whiteness of American spiritualism, 48 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: it's adaptations into other cultures, and the indigenous quote unquote 49 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: spirit guides that still play a large role in the 50 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: faith in spite of little Indigenous participation. We'll talk about 51 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: spiritualism's history as a religion based in science. Hell, we'll 52 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: talk to the dead ourselves. But this week I want 53 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: to hand the mic over to people who have radically 54 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: changed the direction of their own lives to move to 55 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: Central Florida and join a community where mediumship and healing 56 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:43,559 Speaker 1: are the prime directive. And the effect that that community 57 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: and the skepticism surrounding it has had on their lives. 58 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: So here they are, after months of jumping through hoops 59 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: to win the approval of the Cassadega Press Board for 60 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: women willing to talk to me about their experiences in 61 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: Cassadega and American spiritualism. Okay, So, my name is Debbie 62 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: Jordan's and I am a certified spiritualist medium and healer. 63 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: So my name is Jamie Osmond and I am activities coordinator. Alady, 64 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: my name is Lorie Carter, and I'm a certified medium 65 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: here no forermitted teacher in Cassadega Spiritualist Camp. My name 66 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: is Selenie Greene, and I am the Cassadega Camp bookstore manager. 67 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: So let's do it. Let's trace four different journeys to 68 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: Cassadega via the searcher, the writer, the religious, and the 69 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: former skeptic. Are you curious, I'm curious. Let's get some 70 00:04:41,640 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 1: music going here. Okay, okay, kay, okay. I want to 71 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: start with deb Jordan's a chair in Cassadega, the organizational 72 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: kind of chair, not the kind you would see levitate 73 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century, allegedly. But before I do that, 74 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: I want to make a quick correction here. I've been 75 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: calling her pastor deb throughout this series, but I should 76 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 1: clarify that this isn't a formal title that she holds 77 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: at the camp, although she can be found frequently running 78 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: Sunday services at the George Colby Temple, conducting readings, leading meditations, 79 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: then on and on. She functions as a pastor as 80 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: I understand pastors to be yes. But to be clear, 81 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: Cassadega's certified mediums are differentiated between regular certified mediums and 82 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: healers and those who have gone even further into their 83 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 1: studies and become reverence. Eighteen of the forty mediums working 84 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: in Cassadega are reverence or, in the case of three 85 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: of the very present men I've encountered in Cassadega so 86 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:41,559 Speaker 1: far on this podcast, reverend doctors. But in my mind 87 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 1: she's always pastored up. Sorry, that is of the boomer generation. 88 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: She grew up in Kentucky and eventually moved down to Florida. 89 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: Unlike many in the community, she actually didn't grow up 90 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: with a lot of religion and originally became interested in 91 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: church by going by herself as a kid. I grew 92 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: up actually in a family I would say we were 93 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: really non church I had a grandmother that was very spiritual, 94 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: and I would say, you know, she probably was more 95 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: about maybe Southern Baptist. I wasn't a regular participant in 96 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: any kind of church or anything like that until I 97 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: was probably about twelve or thirteen years old, and my 98 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: mother didn't go to church. But I took it upon 99 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: myself to walk to the neighborhood church, presential Um, a 100 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: Baptist church, and so I got very involved in the 101 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: youth choir and was singing with the youth choir. The 102 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: first bill trip that I went on with with the church. 103 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: My mother was like, well, how did you find this place? 104 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: And so it was just something that I think from 105 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: a child up that I had a draw a spiritual connection. 106 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: This interest, any concept of spirit in the afterlife from 107 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: a young age, is a continuous through line, regardless of 108 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: where the person is from or how they were raised, 109 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: and this interest would often be kick started with some 110 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: sort of experience of seeing or experiencing spirit. Here's medium 111 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: Lourie Carter and so I'm from the midwest, Wisconsin who 112 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: lived there for joy for years, and I guess I 113 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: could say that we grew up Methodist. I guess I 114 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: would have to say, have I spent an intuitive and 115 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: really didn't know it? Um. In fact, one of my 116 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: first master teachers that I was the greatest knower she 117 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: ever knew. So. I was born near Pittsburgh and I 118 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,679 Speaker 1: lived there until my parents divorced when I was nine, 119 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: and my mother was from Florida, so she moved me 120 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: and her back to Florida. And um So I've been 121 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: here since and I've seen spirit pretty much all my life. 122 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: The first time I remember seeing I think I was 123 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: two years old. I was is raised in a very 124 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: religious family, very Southern Baptist, very old Florida. I'm from 125 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: Silver Spring, Maryland, which is a suburb of Washington, d C. 126 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: And um. Both of my parents are NASA original NASA astronomers. 127 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: They they were one of the few married couples at 128 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: the beginning of NASA. Hold on, yes, you did hear 129 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: that correctly. Selena is of particular interest to me, not 130 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: just because she is the offspring of two famous NASA astronomers, 131 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: not just because she is named after the Moon due 132 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: to being raised by astronomers, but because she was actually 133 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: one of the most resistant to doing this interview, not 134 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: because she wasn't interested but because she thought she wasn't 135 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: interesting enough to warrant a chat. But upon further questioning, 136 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: it became clear that she was an outlier not only 137 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: in Cassadega, but in her generation in the United States, 138 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: because she was actually raised as a staunch atheist. In 139 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 1: the majority of these stories, we see the example of 140 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: American women being raised in a religious household for a 141 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: traditionally religious area. Deb got deep into the Evangelical Church 142 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: in Kentucky as a young adult, where she stayed deeply 143 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: involved for about fifteen years. Laurie left Methodism as a teenager. 144 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: Jamie remained involved in the Southern Baptist Church until about ten. 145 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: But Selena was raised by atheist scientists. But even in 146 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: this atheist household, there were strong fundamental elements to how 147 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: she grew up. And she had already decided at that point, 148 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 1: by like twelve, aged twelve, that there was definitely no 149 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: such thing as heaven and there was no such thing 150 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: as hell, because astronomy proved there was no heaven and 151 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: geology proved there was no hell. And that's what she 152 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: ended up I mean, was a lunar geologist. Shot was 153 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: that he became what I call it fundamentalist atheist, and 154 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 1: my mom had returned to atheist at age twelve. My 155 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: dad um as she was a fairly lass affair atheist, 156 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,559 Speaker 1: like she ended up getting married in the church because 157 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: she didn't want to hurt her parents feelings. And she 158 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: never was someone who went on about it unless she 159 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: was questioned or asked by somebody else first. But my 160 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: dad became a really um gung ho atheist, proselytizing type 161 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: of atheists, and um he and my mom when they 162 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 1: had my sister and I, he became very afraid that, 163 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: you know, we were going to be tainted by religions. 164 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: This is absolutely fascinating to me because growing up aggressively 165 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: without faith made her kind of naturally curious. And in 166 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: the case of the three others, their interest in communicating 167 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: with spirit was generally dismissed or discouraged by their families, 168 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: even if, as Jamie described, there was some precedent for 169 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: mediumship within their own families. Here are the ladies of 170 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: Cassadega describing some of their early experiences with the other side. 171 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: So what I can remember is it wouldn't be anything 172 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: for my grandmother to walk out of the building and 173 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: say to me, did you see the little girl in 174 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: the corner? Yes, Grandma, Okay, you're not crazy. Or like 175 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: the night my great uncle passed my I I sleep 176 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: with a box fan, and in the middle of the night, 177 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: around two o'clock in the morning, the box fan stopped running. 178 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: As I come to know and understand a little bit 179 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: more about myself, I decided that there was something a 180 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:54,559 Speaker 1: lot more than what I realized, and that there were 181 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: things that you know, would trend, like certain things that 182 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: would happen, you know, throughout my life led me to 183 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 1: believe that there were maybe gifts and maybe we could 184 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: call that some sense of intuition, right. What's really interesting 185 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: is I realized that I told my mom and dad 186 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: at one point that I saw a spirit in my room, 187 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: and nobody believed me. And then when I got to college, 188 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: I thought, you know, I'd really like to learn about 189 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 1: religion because I just, you know, the only thing I 190 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: really know about religion was the dentist office had a 191 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: series of kids, you know, level books about the first 192 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: books of the Bible. And so these early experiences generally 193 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: fell between the late seventies and the early eighties, a 194 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 1: time where women of the boomer generation, The majority of 195 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: Cassadaga's mediums were coming of age. I could and have 196 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: gone on about this for quite a long time, but 197 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: the boomer generation was a very tricky time for women. 198 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: There was a lot of push and pull between traditional 199 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: values and an increased push towards individualism and encouragement for 200 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: many to see themselves as someone who created their own 201 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: sense of self and worth and consumption. Unlike many of 202 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: their mothers. The majority of Cassadeca mediums had careers and 203 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: were associated with traditional religions before making the move towards spiritualism. 204 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: Deb had her own career as an I T specialist. 205 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: Lori was a dining room manager and a reporter. Selena 206 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: worked at Borders Bookstore forever, and Jamie owned two sewing 207 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: stores in central Florida. But something happens in their lives. 208 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: There is a crisis of faith or in Selena's case, 209 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: lack of faith, and after these formative experiences with spirit, 210 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: they begin to be drawn to more and more spiritual ideas, 211 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: a road that in this region inevitably leads to Cassadeca. 212 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: I want to turn us down a quick side alley here. 213 00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: I do feel compelled to say that these women were 214 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: coming up at a gang buster's time for ghostie media 215 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: in the US, so as I said, most were coming 216 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: of age in the nineteen seventies and eighties, and this 217 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: was a time where communication with spirit was very commonly 218 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: shown in the media, whether as an interesting novelty or 219 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: as a scary demonic event. I think the horror movies 220 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: that were based on quote unquote true stories. The Amityville 221 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: Horror came out in nine seven, the Exorcist had come 222 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: out a few years before, Poltergeist, and The Shining came 223 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: out a few years after, all of which have nothing 224 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: to do with spiritualism the religion, but we're huge American 225 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: pop culture touchstones, ones that alternatively fueled moral panics with 226 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: fundamentalists and fueled interest in the afterlife in the Curious, 227 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: and are all certainly ones that boomers would have been 228 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: well associated with. There's plenty of examples of ghost media 229 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: leaking into the interests of the real world for ahaps, 230 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: most popularly through the paranormal investigations of Ed and Lorraine Warren, 231 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: the couple who are fictionalized in the Conjuring movies. They 232 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: spent the majority of the seventies and eighties investigating cases 233 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: in America and England with families who reported possessions of 234 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: evil spirit. The ghosts of this time have unfinished business 235 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: and can often be malevolent. They terrorize, and they are 236 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: generally only brought at bay by something vaguely Christian. A 237 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: little more to the point than these movies, spiritualist adjacent 238 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: ideas were also popularized through a series of well received 239 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: channeled books. That is, a book where a spirit communicates 240 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: through a medium. The medium writes the messages received down, 241 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: and they published the book crediting the spirit. Although I'm 242 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: assuming that the spirit does not receive a percentage. Please 243 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: contact me if that's not correct. These books could be 244 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:05,399 Speaker 1: so influential that you can in fact directly trace the 245 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 1: Cassadega bookstore manager is Selena's journey right back to a 246 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:13,199 Speaker 1: series of channeled books that were popular between the nineteen 247 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 1: fifties and seventies. Selena told me that some of her 248 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: interests in the supernatural originally came up after she'd begun 249 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: taking religious history courses in college and found an old 250 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: copy of a popular book called The Search for Bridie Murphy, 251 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: one of those true stories in which a Colorado housewife 252 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: named Virginia. Tige was put under hypnosis by an amateur 253 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: hypnotist named Maury Bernstein and ended up channeling a nineteenth 254 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: century Irish woman named Bridie Murphy with what was said 255 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: to be extreme precision. Upon some investigation, much of what 256 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: was channeled couldn't be verified as a person who had 257 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 1: ever existed. The prominent theory today is that Tige experienced 258 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: something called kryptom nies, you a proposed memory bias that 259 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: occurs where a forgotten memory returns without the person realizing 260 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: that that's what it is. The term actually first came 261 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: into play in the late eighteen hundreds as a way 262 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: of understanding the mediumship of a very famous Swedish medium 263 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 1: named Helena Smith. Regardless of whether you think it's true 264 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: or not, the search for Bridie Murphy caused a huge 265 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: praise in the US in the nineteen fifties, and twenty 266 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 1: years later put Selena on the road to spiritualism. It's 267 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: not a spiritualist text itself, but it was another hiccup 268 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: in the public's interest in speaking with the dead, and 269 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: Selena told me explicitly that it had a huge influence 270 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: on her. Another book that Peter Interest was something called 271 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: Seth Speaks, another popular channel material book from ninety two. 272 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 1: This was one of many that science fiction writer Jane 273 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: Roberts dictated to her husband between in the nineteen sixties 274 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: and her death in the eighties. She was said to 275 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: have channeled a spirit named simply Seth, who advised her 276 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 1: on concepts like the point of power, you know, that 277 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 1: billion dollar piece of advice people have been selling for 278 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: thousands of years, the power of the present moment, et cetera. 279 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,679 Speaker 1: Selina was inspired by all of this, partially because she 280 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: was kept away from ideas like this her entire life. 281 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 1: I just pretty much read every book on reincarnation that 282 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 1: there was, and in the small, very small what they 283 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: called occult and metaphysical section, and the more I read, 284 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: the more I just got I mean, they were all 285 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: most of them were by people who were science oriented 286 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 1: or skeptical, and I was raised to be skeptical, and I, 287 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: you know, I just kept read. The more I read, 288 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: the more I you know, I got convinced that there was, 289 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 1: you know, something else out there. So while ghost media 290 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: was very prominent, ghost churchy media wasn't as much. So yes, 291 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: interest in the afterlife, in the positive and the negative 292 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: was everywhere in pop culture as these mediums came of age, 293 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: but it took all four well into adulthood to begin 294 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: meaningfully exploring spiritualism, and they would often do so in secret. 295 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: Deb told me that she would go to meditation circles 296 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: between evangelical church sessions. Jamie read tarot cards and went 297 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: through a wickaphase in her twenties while still singing in 298 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: the Baptist choir. Salnah read her metaphysical books on the clock, 299 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 1: and Laurie and her young daughter, who now also practices 300 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: in Cassadega alongside her mom, would talk about their experiences 301 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 1: with spirit when she was very young. In every case, 302 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 1: these long standing interests eventually turned into a change in 303 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: their faith. At some point the secret life of dabbling 304 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: in the spiritual wasn't cutting it anymore, and so they 305 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: make their first trips to Cassadega. And so after I 306 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: went to several people, they said, well, you know, you're 307 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: probably gonna have to go to Cassadega because that's where 308 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: people you know who are you know, your typical medium, 309 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: sty kicks, healers. You know, that's where you're going to 310 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: find the people that you're going to resonate with when 311 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: you drive by it. It's almost like if you close 312 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: your eyes, you're gonna miss it. And it's so cute too, 313 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,880 Speaker 1: because at first in class, I'm like, oh, maybe I'm 314 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: just a psychic and she's like, not sorry, you're a medium. 315 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 1: And you know, my eyes had to work really hard 316 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: for everything that I got, had to study hard, had 317 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 1: to work hard all that, And then I heard about Cassadega. 318 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,239 Speaker 1: Um this is city in central Florida, and you know, 319 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,479 Speaker 1: I thought, well, I've got to go visit this place. 320 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 1: It's kind of fun to hear about everyone's first experiences 321 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: in Cassadega as newcomers, because they're so intimidating to me now. 322 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: But there was a time where they didn't know who 323 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: was a certified medium and who was an independent operator. 324 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: They had mixed experiences on their first readings. They weren't 325 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: totally sure how to feel about it all. Hopefully like me, 326 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: they were also baffled by the lack of snacks in 327 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: the area. Quick sweet sidebar about deb Her entry to 328 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,920 Speaker 1: Cassadega could not have been cuter. It just so happens 329 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: that Cassadega wasn't the only place that debb found religious 330 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: peace and self acceptance. It was also where she found love. 331 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: I arrived in town and I said, geez, this, you know, 332 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: I felt like I was at home. I had a 333 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: reading across the street because I knew absolutely nothing about 334 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: the camp or anything that they were actually doing. It 335 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: was kind of ironic because I told him, I said, 336 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:52,400 Speaker 1: you know, hey, I think I'm gonna have a reading. 337 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: So I went over and I sat down and waited 338 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 1: for my time. So when my time came out, wentever, 339 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: and you know it's Atlanta, said hey, I'm about five 340 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: minutes past. Isn't time for my reading? And so she 341 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: pulls back the curtain and she says, oh, he has 342 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,959 Speaker 1: somebody in his chair. He's obviously taking somebody else's client. 343 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: So anyway, this guy across the room hollered over and said, hey, 344 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: you know, if she's okay, I'll do a reading for her. 345 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 1: So I took him up on it, and I said, 346 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 1: you know, whatever, you know, it doesn't matter to me. 347 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: And so I went over and I sat down, I 348 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: had a reading. And so that person ended up becoming 349 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: my significant other for the last sixteen years i've met him. 350 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: He's wonderful. So yeah, I knew that you had met him. Um, 351 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: so anyways, that's how we met. I'm sorry. That is 352 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: so nice. I don't care if you believe in ghosts 353 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 1: or not. That is very cute. Like spoiler alert, I 354 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: do meet her boyfriend later love in a ghost place. 355 00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:00,080 Speaker 1: I'm swooning. That's adorable. That's so nice. It's kind have 356 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,919 Speaker 1: been an interesting journey. But to be honest, you know, 357 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: at that moment, I really didn't truly understand what spiritualism was. 358 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 1: You know, my journey at that point was more about 359 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 1: really my own personal gifts, my my own personal healing, 360 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 1: and my Christianity and my personal emboldment. So anyway, I 361 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: started exploring, you know, what's this thing called spiritualism? You know, 362 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 1: is it? You know, is this a good thing? Or 363 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: is this a bad thing? And once someone is sold 364 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: on spiritual so really sold. Not the frequently cited examples 365 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: of someone coming to the spiritualist church while going through 366 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: a difficult time, often after a loss, then moving on 367 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,919 Speaker 1: never to be heard from again. I'm talking about getting 368 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: into it, wanting to take classes, volunteer, and it on 369 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: the road to becoming a medium themselves. While Salina was 370 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: never a student, herself. She returned often and eventually interviewed 371 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: with the board when they needed a new bookstore manager. 372 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 1: Jamie got her job as activities coordinator after being an 373 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 1: enthusiastic volunteer and taking classes. She tells me that she 374 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: was already used to the service and volunteering aspect that 375 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: she'd spent her whole life as a Baptist perfecting. Dad 376 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 1: became more interested in mediumship through taking classes and possibly 377 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: her new boyfriend. And Lorie has a really sweet intergenerational 378 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: story about she and her daughter beginning to train together. 379 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 1: And the training and education is important because, as Cassadega 380 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: mediums are quick to remind you, they are not the 381 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: card readers charging a hundred bucks an hour that work 382 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:57,120 Speaker 1: around the sanctioned campgrounds that they do a true Cassadega 383 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 1: medium or healer as it were. But as a tourists, 384 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: it's virtually impossible to know who has taken the multiple 385 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 1: years of classes required to be recognized by the camp 386 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: association and which is the card reader, dealer or medium 387 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: who isn't a formal member. For your reference, those tarot 388 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 1: readers at the hotel not Cassadega mediums, those readers across 389 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: the street who do their readings behind curtains in the 390 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: middle of the store, not Cassadega mediums. And while Cassadega 391 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: mediums proper don't shade them directly, they are very careful 392 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 1: and very proud of their specific training, training that doesn't 393 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 1: cost a ton of money but does cost a lot 394 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 1: of time and commitment, not the weekend Reiky certifications or 395 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 1: Tarot reading certificates that are more easily gotten no matter 396 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 1: your skill level. I'll let deb explain the difference. They 397 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: have not gone through the ricor or the you know, 398 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: the classes, the workingman's public, you know, going through you 399 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 1: know the curriculum and all that. Um. Now, that's not 400 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: saying that they're not gifted. It just means that, you 401 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 1: know that they're independent people that gravitated to the hotel 402 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 1: to be able to leverage their gifts. Is the people 403 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,120 Speaker 1: you know that are operating out of the shops over 404 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: there basically doing their own thing, so they don't have 405 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: the same governments and rules and regulations and by laws 406 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,640 Speaker 1: and policies and things like that that we do inside 407 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 1: the camp. We actually run you know, a pretty um 408 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: type ship. UM as it relates to cast the biggest 409 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,400 Speaker 1: spiritualist camp, you know, and the people that do come 410 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: there to to do work and to go through the 411 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: student program, we like to make sure you know that 412 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:45,199 Speaker 1: they have, you know, participated in in the curriculum and 413 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: you know, had the opportunity to be able to leverage 414 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: and prove their gifts. It takes three to four years 415 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: to become a certified medium or healer, and to to 416 00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 1: four more years to become an ordained minister. Certification and 417 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: I don't know if you know this or not, but 418 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 1: certification includes curriculum and doing hands on demonstration, public demonstrations 419 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: with spirit greetings one to three minutes, fifteen minute readings, 420 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: finding message services. My first message service that I did 421 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: as a certified medium, there were fifty people there. CASS 422 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: today is like a little in university. So for instance, 423 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 1: you'll start at a level one and go through level 424 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: four to become certified. And so there's curriculum and UH 425 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:41,479 Speaker 1: and experiential that basically every student has to experience and 426 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: go through. I took classes with Joan, I took classes 427 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: with Dr t Dr Thomas. Dr Thomas was probably the 428 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: one that I centered around most in the beginning. UM 429 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: I would go to their seances. My husband, out in 430 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: front of my face, was very supportive of it us, 431 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: you know, would say go to Cassadega because I know 432 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: it relaxes you, you know. But behind my back he 433 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: was chewing me a part. But yeah, I dove in 434 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,719 Speaker 1: at first. It's a very specific process. Speaking to my 435 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: own experience, I had good experiences with Cassadega mediums and 436 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: with readers of the camp who were not certified by 437 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: the Cassadega Spiritualist Camp. So while I respect what the 438 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: Cassadega mediums did for their education, it's just like the 439 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: real world. It doesn't matter what school you into, it 440 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: matters what your passion and skill level is. But for 441 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: this group of women, by the time they're really in, 442 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: they've already been in the Cassadega community a minimum of 443 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: once or twice a week for about four years or more, 444 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: and many end up moving to the camp and buying 445 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: homes after becoming official members. That is to say, once 446 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: you're a medium, you can't really keep it from the 447 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: people in your life who would disapprove you. Gotta come clean, 448 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: and you can often feel that in the stories of 449 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: people who come to spiritualism in many cases them, discussing 450 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: their faith often comes at the cost of relationships with family, 451 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: with friends, and with members of their former religion. And 452 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: I want to be clear, this is not at the 453 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: insistence of the spiritualist religion. This isn't scientology demanding that 454 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 1: you disconnect from nonbelievers. This is strictly based on how 455 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: the beliefs of spiritualism, the ideas of continuous life chafe 456 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: with other religions and with the women I spoke with, 457 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: the range of reactions differed. For some it was nothing 458 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: more than a little curiosity and confusion from family and friends. Now, 459 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: one time, my daughter and I we went up for 460 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: a vacation to visit, Oh what do you do now, Oh, 461 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: I'm a certain find medium or blah blah blah. And 462 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: I think more than anything, people are kind of fascinated 463 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: with that. But other times getting involved in ritualism gets 464 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: much more complicated than that. In a follow up interview, 465 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: Selena told me about her mother, the astronomer Winnifred Cameron, 466 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: who was amazing by the way she was like this 467 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: famous lunar expert at NASA in the nineteen fifties at 468 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: a time where not many women were working at NASA. 469 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: She was an adviser on the Apollo moon landings. She 470 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: was just an incredible person, and she married Selena's fundamentalist, 471 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: atheist astronomer dad, Robert Cameron, who named a whole planet 472 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: after her. Winnifred Cameron passed in and Selena described to 473 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: me a number of difficult conversations she had with her 474 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: mother towards the end of her life. Though they always 475 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: remained close, Selena was unable to convince her pragmatic scientist 476 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: mom that there was any possibility of life after death, 477 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,719 Speaker 1: and that was really difficult for her. Jamie told me 478 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: about how her relation and ship with spiritualism altered her 479 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: relationship with her family. They knew that I read tarot 480 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: in my family, but when I got there, there was 481 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: a concern amongst the family. I was in my elements. 482 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: I was happy. I was this is the greatest crop ever. 483 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: You know. I can embrace this, I can learn it. 484 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: Oh my god, I have these gifts I can heal. 485 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: Are you kidding me? You know? I've always been this way. This, 486 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: there's a name to this, you know, it's just like 487 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: all of this and so um. I remember the first Easter, 488 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: my mom calling me and saying to me, so, how 489 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: are you going to do Easter? How that you're a spiritualist? 490 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: What do you mean how am I gonna do Easter? 491 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: Don't you feel like you will be a hypocrite if 492 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 1: you come to the family for Easter. So we'll thank 493 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: you for saving me that three hour drive. And I 494 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: haven't been to an Easter since. As a matter of fact, 495 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: she said to me this past you know, we're having 496 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 1: the search of brothers and if you would like to 497 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: make an appearance, And I said, need I remind you 498 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: what you said to me when I first entered spiritalism. 499 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: Now you don't need to remind me. Okay, I won't 500 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: be there. I lost really what I thought were best 501 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: friends from the Baptist Church when I told them that 502 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: I was I was a medium and I had been 503 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: all my life and I was going to that And 504 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: you know in Christianity that will shout not judge lest 505 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: you be judged yourself. But the Christians are the first 506 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: freaking ones to hit that judgment, you know, not all 507 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: the majority of them. And that's what happened. I lost 508 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: really good friends, and my family did not understand um 509 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: and so um. They don't resonate with it. Actually they don't. 510 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: You know, there's a certain level of skepticism that, you know, 511 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: their belief system that someone could actually communicate with spirit 512 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: and and and I think that's you know, that was 513 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: something for me that that has been a little bit 514 00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: of a challenge because um, and you know, it's a 515 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,479 Speaker 1: little hurtful sometimes, you know that people would you know 516 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: that people are not you know that they don't that 517 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: don't believe you know that, um, that you have the 518 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: ability to be able to work with spirit or communicate 519 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: with spirit, and and so um, I think that was 520 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:22,320 Speaker 1: something that was probably somewhat somewhat hurtful, But in spite 521 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: of these personal challenges, they stuck with it. And the 522 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: people I spoke with in Cassadega were very proud of 523 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 1: their religion and no matter what their background was, of 524 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: Spiritualism's ability to be pretty inclusive of many different religions 525 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 1: and ideas. Underselling as Supervision, the bookstore has included more 526 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 1: and more New Age and Eastern religious ideas as the 527 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: demand for it increased from the public, and while this 528 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: accessibility hasn't seemed to do much in the way of 529 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 1: diversifying Cassadega. All of the women who spoke to me 530 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: for these interviews were white, and that has a lot 531 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: to do with the fact that there's only a handful 532 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 1: of mediums at the camp who aren't white. We're going 533 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: to get into the reasons that this may be in 534 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 1: the second half of our season, because spiritualist ideas have 535 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: a wide global appeal across race, gender, and age lines. 536 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: At present, American spiritualism appears to be at this midpoint, 537 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: they still primarily work with former Christians who are layering 538 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: spiritualist ideas onto the flavor of Christianity they grew up in. 539 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: But it's not a must. I'll let the ladies explain 540 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,359 Speaker 1: from a spiritualist perspective, we don't necessarily get caught up 541 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 1: in the dogma. And so, you know, if you come, 542 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: you know, if you were to gravitate to spiritualism as 543 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: a Christian or let's just say, even even as a 544 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: Hindu or um, you know, Islam or whatever the case 545 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:58,760 Speaker 1: may be, UM, there's going to be a certain level 546 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 1: of um a acceptance, but also there's gonna be a 547 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: certain level of um understanding that I think every single 548 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 1: individual is going to resonate with because it is about 549 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: the higher self and uh, the spiritual. You know, your 550 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: own personal spirituality and your own personal connection with with 551 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: God or infinite intelligence or your higher power, So we 552 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:36,320 Speaker 1: don't necessarily try to control or dictate your personal journey 553 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: or your personal path based on some religious dogma. You 554 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: have your poor beliefs, Like I was raised in the church, 555 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 1: and I decided in the church what I'm going to 556 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: keep and what I'm going to give away. You know, 557 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 1: I'm going to keep that Jesus was a healer and 558 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 1: the prophet, and I'm going to give away the people's savior. 559 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: I'm not going to keep that. So it's kind of like, 560 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 1: you have your poor beliefs, and then spiritualism comes along 561 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,800 Speaker 1: as an add on. They're very proud of the spiritualist community, 562 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:06,359 Speaker 1: but it is a community, and communities have their problems 563 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 1: and drama and in fighting. And I was very curious 564 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,800 Speaker 1: what it's like working in a community where everyone feels 565 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:18,359 Speaker 1: connected to spirit and therefore maybe have some strong opinions 566 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 1: about things that they're divinely correct about, which is my 567 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,799 Speaker 1: way of saying. I love gossip, and I love gossiping, 568 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 1: and deb was game, so read between the lines here. 569 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: I was curious. Yeah, if you would speak to that 570 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: a little bit of what the community of mediums and 571 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: healers and students is like and what it's like to 572 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,359 Speaker 1: be a part of that community. Will it could be 573 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:47,359 Speaker 1: good and bad? Um so, but um so, I think 574 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: the probably the maybe the biggest challenge because you know, 575 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 1: oftentimes those of us who are mediums, mediums were in paths, right, 576 00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 1: and so that means the ultra sensitive. We can sit 577 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: down next to somebody and you know, because it's like, 578 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 1: you know, we're so attuned, we can pick up information 579 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: about that individual. So um, it's not like you're reading 580 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: somebody's mind, but you can tell, you know, you can 581 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 1: see a lot in their vibration and you can pick 582 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: a lot of things up just by being around them 583 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 1: in their energy right. And so sometimes you know, it 584 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: gets a little bit um, you know, we get a 585 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: little sensitive. Let's put it that away. So um, I 586 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: think that on great days, we we probably can say 587 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 1: we all love each other, and on some not so 588 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: great days, we probably say, jeez, we've got to get 589 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:47,400 Speaker 1: the heck out of this place, because we're all going, 590 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:52,919 Speaker 1: we're we're we're battling with each other you know, so 591 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,360 Speaker 1: it's not any different than any other great family because 592 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 1: we all live in the same community and we all 593 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,719 Speaker 1: know each other, you know, we all have that you know, 594 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 1: share similar you know, very similar kinds of experiences and 595 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 1: go to church together and sometimes each account of her 596 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 1: so um, I would say, you know, sometimes that's a 597 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: bit of a challenge. But but I think a lot 598 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 1: of it has to do with the fact that we're 599 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,760 Speaker 1: just ultra sensitive, fable, right. And as for their views 600 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 1: on what the future of spiritualism is, the mediums at 601 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:33,799 Speaker 1: Cassadega have wildly different perspectives. While I'm visiting, I hear 602 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 1: that some members of the camp are in fear of 603 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: the religion not making it due to how time intensive 604 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 1: their training is. The mediums who are trained not being 605 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 1: able to meet increased public demand, the anxiety that comes 606 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:53,399 Speaker 1: with increased gentrification slowly closing in on their area. One 607 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 1: camp medium who didn't want to be identified by name, 608 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,360 Speaker 1: indicated that a lot of people seem to be moving 609 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:03,239 Speaker 1: to Central Florida because of their low COVID mask restrictions, 610 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,879 Speaker 1: and if you're familiar with the governor of Florida, that's 611 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 1: no surprise. And others are much more optimistic, feeling that 612 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: things will work out. Jamie is the activities director and 613 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:20,719 Speaker 1: along with Selena, works directly with mediums as well as 614 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,760 Speaker 1: with the public. So I was interested in what she thought. 615 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,799 Speaker 1: You know, spiritualist camps are closing at an alarming rate. 616 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 1: But I think one of our saving races is that 617 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,839 Speaker 1: we're year round. But you know, if you look at 618 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: the history of the camp, and I've done a lot 619 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 1: of research on it, it's it always has Just like anything, 620 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 1: there's an ebb and flow. You know, you have your 621 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 1: bad times, and you have your good times, you have 622 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 1: your you know, your crap, and then you don't have 623 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: your crap, and it's just histories just keeps rebeating itself. 624 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,680 Speaker 1: So I think that there's a fear among a lot 625 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 1: of the camp members that the that the camp isn't 626 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 1: going to survive much longer. I don't understand what they're 627 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 1: basing that at all. You know, there you can research 628 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,399 Speaker 1: religion after religion after religion that died off because they 629 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 1: weren't bringing younger people in, you know, and so that's 630 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 1: been a bit of a struggle because you have the 631 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 1: two sides of defenses there. I'm trying to bring in 632 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: younger people, and then you've got other people that are 633 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 1: complaining about them, you know, and and it's just like 634 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: you got to open your eyes and you know, this 635 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 1: has to be done because the training process is so 636 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,200 Speaker 1: rigorous and take such a long time that they're like, well, 637 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 1: the people who get through the program can be really 638 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,760 Speaker 1: overworked because it's it's such a road to to get there, 639 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,319 Speaker 1: you know, it is. And then you know, we're we're 640 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: lacking on mediums. We don't have as many parts the 641 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 1: meanings as we did before COVID, you know, and because 642 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,799 Speaker 1: of that, we don't have you know, we lost a 643 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,680 Speaker 1: lot of members last year the transition the student program. 644 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: I think we have three students, that's say. Selena remains 645 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,720 Speaker 1: pretty positive on this issue. She says that she's noticed 646 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:06,279 Speaker 1: and increased receptiveness not just in the tourists visiting, but 647 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,200 Speaker 1: in their surrounding community in Florida. Well, the thing that 648 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,279 Speaker 1: has changed over time the most isn't so much what 649 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:18,600 Speaker 1: they're interested in reading as the the zeitgeist of the 650 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 1: outside world. When I first got here, there were the 651 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,279 Speaker 1: people that picketed, you know, in front in front of 652 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,800 Speaker 1: the bookstore that we were satan and and they would 653 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:32,239 Speaker 1: come into the store and and pray for us, um 654 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:38,640 Speaker 1: stuff like that. And that has really ratcheted down and 655 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:44,480 Speaker 1: now it is so much more of a mainstream thing 656 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:48,680 Speaker 1: to be um interested in in in what cassidy has 657 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 1: to offer. And there are so many people who you know, 658 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 1: had to deal with isolation for you know, some amount 659 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:03,680 Speaker 1: of time in some cases years, and they had they 660 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,840 Speaker 1: all of a sudden had enough time to do things 661 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,720 Speaker 1: that they never had time to do before. Read more 662 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 1: and meditate maybe for you know, I finally felt like 663 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:17,440 Speaker 1: they had time to meditate and um just investigate things 664 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 1: that they had wanted, you know, had had interest in 665 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,200 Speaker 1: but never had time. So all of that plus all 666 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:28,080 Speaker 1: of the people who died of covid um, you know, 667 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,160 Speaker 1: that was a large amount of people dying all at 668 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,759 Speaker 1: the same time. There are plenty of through lines and 669 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 1: patterns present and why people are drawn to spiritualism, but 670 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 1: for visitors and mediums alike, the core reasons tend to 671 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 1: be pretty personal. Deb shared this with me on how 672 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,840 Speaker 1: her mediumship has helped her through. One last thing I 673 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: will share is that in actually UM I lost my 674 00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,040 Speaker 1: grandson who had just turned running for in a car accident, 675 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:04,240 Speaker 1: and and so um I had actually raised him from 676 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,400 Speaker 1: the time he was born until he was about seven 677 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,880 Speaker 1: and until and and so then he went off to 678 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:15,959 Speaker 1: live with his mother. But so I think that if 679 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,600 Speaker 1: I were not able to use my gifts to be 680 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:25,360 Speaker 1: able to be open to the possibility of of sensing 681 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:30,719 Speaker 1: that vibration and and feeling his presence, that it would 682 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,600 Speaker 1: have been very difficult for me, as as I'm going 683 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:35,879 Speaker 1: to say, as a parent, to be able to get 684 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,640 Speaker 1: through the loss of a child. And um really trying 685 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:43,440 Speaker 1: to understand. You know, oftentimes when we lose those that 686 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:47,200 Speaker 1: are closest to us, um and God forbid, you know, 687 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,480 Speaker 1: those of us who lose child, you know, we started 688 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,400 Speaker 1: a question, you know, why would why would it happen? 689 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,600 Speaker 1: Or how could God allow something like that to happen? 690 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,480 Speaker 1: And I mean, I think it's a natural process, you know, 691 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:06,080 Speaker 1: for people to go through, uh, you know, when they 692 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,799 Speaker 1: lose people that are so close to them. And so 693 00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,719 Speaker 1: I think my belief in my understanding and spiritualism and 694 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,719 Speaker 1: my ability to be able to connect with them and 695 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:23,760 Speaker 1: understand you know, Him in his journey gave me the opportunity, 696 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,759 Speaker 1: the ability, I should say, um to be able to 697 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,960 Speaker 1: look at that tragedy as uh in a little bit 698 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:36,160 Speaker 1: of a different perspective. Like any religion, at least a 699 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,440 Speaker 1: part of the appeal is its ability to bring peace. 700 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:46,200 Speaker 1: So sure, the finances are unclear, the nature of mediumship 701 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:51,000 Speaker 1: itself is changing. Cassadega is struggling to recruit, but interest 702 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,680 Speaker 1: in spiritualism is at an all time high. It's kind 703 00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,400 Speaker 1: of all over the place. My favorite reaction is from 704 00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,960 Speaker 1: Laurie because it's actually the same one that I get 705 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,239 Speaker 1: from one of these senior pastors at the first Spiritualist 706 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 1: church in Brockton, Massachusetts. Go Boxers. What she says when 707 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,919 Speaker 1: asked what would happen if the dwindling church didn't bring 708 00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,400 Speaker 1: in new members soon, and she just sort of says, 709 00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,000 Speaker 1: leave it to spirit I'm gonna say, I just see 710 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:22,320 Speaker 1: it continuing on as it always says, and of course 711 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,959 Speaker 1: eventually things of all and so how they ate, Bob, 712 00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:29,839 Speaker 1: I really don't know. I mean, it's not like people 713 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:43,000 Speaker 1: are going to stop dying anytime soon. I think Jamie 714 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:47,000 Speaker 1: kind of summed it up best here. Yes, Spiritualism is 715 00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:51,080 Speaker 1: founded on the continuity of life and on very particular 716 00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,480 Speaker 1: beliefs but it's like I tell people, when you pick 717 00:46:54,560 --> 00:47:00,120 Speaker 1: religions apart of them, we're all trying to attempt the 718 00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:04,040 Speaker 1: same damn thing. We're just a different highways, calling it 719 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,800 Speaker 1: different things, looking at different views, but we're all trying 720 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,359 Speaker 1: to get to that same boy. And that's the first 721 00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:13,719 Speaker 1: half of Ghost Church, and the second part of this 722 00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,920 Speaker 1: series we'll see what became of the Fox Sisters and 723 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,040 Speaker 1: how the world took what they innovated and brought it 724 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:23,440 Speaker 1: into the present, as well as all of the complications 725 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,600 Speaker 1: that come with becoming a religion in America. It's funny 726 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,920 Speaker 1: because throughout this series, I do these gut checks every 727 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,080 Speaker 1: once in a while, sometimes very close together, because when 728 00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,040 Speaker 1: you make a show about religion, it's kind of this 729 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,279 Speaker 1: catch twenty two, right, Like you're never going to be 730 00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,480 Speaker 1: skeptical enough for the skeptics, You're never going to be 731 00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:47,680 Speaker 1: respectful enough for the devout. And I know that I'm 732 00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:52,160 Speaker 1: never going to speak broadly enough or speak slowly enough 733 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,840 Speaker 1: to make a successful could podcast. Okay, you know, like 734 00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:00,000 Speaker 1: this guy went to college with not that he remembers 735 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,520 Speaker 1: or so that we went to college together. He emailed 736 00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,640 Speaker 1: me to say that he listened to the trailer of 737 00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:10,560 Speaker 1: Ghost Church, and did I want to develop a docuseries 738 00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:15,319 Speaker 1: in the quote unquote cult space dark. It's really hot 739 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,600 Speaker 1: right now, and it's like, yeah, sure, while I'm at it, 740 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,960 Speaker 1: I'll make a limited series about a recently disgraced white 741 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,080 Speaker 1: millionaire and cast a movie star in it. Right after 742 00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:29,719 Speaker 1: I develop a god awful Hulu original about a famous 743 00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:33,760 Speaker 1: suburban murder that people say really makes you think about 744 00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,319 Speaker 1: the times we live in? But does it actually? And 745 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,319 Speaker 1: why are the scene split so dark? You know? I 746 00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:43,480 Speaker 1: just but that's not why I'm making this show, and 747 00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:45,920 Speaker 1: I hope that's not why you're listening to this show. 748 00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:48,840 Speaker 1: I don't like to make stuff about things I've completely 749 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,640 Speaker 1: made my mind up about. You know, leave that to 750 00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:55,440 Speaker 1: the dorks who like very clear cut heroes and villains. 751 00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,120 Speaker 1: And that's fine, But I feel compelled to tell you 752 00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:02,960 Speaker 1: as far as it goes with spiritualism and spiritualist traditions, 753 00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:07,359 Speaker 1: I'm not out at all. Even with a history of 754 00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:11,359 Speaker 1: known fraud in the case of some spiritualists. I don't 755 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:15,440 Speaker 1: think that that discounts an entire religion or belief system. 756 00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:19,080 Speaker 1: But I do think that that fraud should be recognized 757 00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:22,680 Speaker 1: and dealt with. I think the uglier parts of a 758 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:26,319 Speaker 1: religion should be acknowledged and dealt with. I don't think 759 00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:29,600 Speaker 1: that I necessarily hold the faith of the spiritualists, but 760 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,640 Speaker 1: I do hold the faith that belief can be a 761 00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:36,759 Speaker 1: tether to reality or a complete severance from it. And 762 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:40,120 Speaker 1: it's been both for me at different points. It's been both. 763 00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:44,520 Speaker 1: And yes, in case you're wondering, I am still waiting 764 00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,880 Speaker 1: for that guide in a cape to show up and 765 00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,160 Speaker 1: tell me what their name is. We'll be back in 766 00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:55,000 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks. Oh wait, Actually, two little bonus interactions. 767 00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:59,800 Speaker 1: Here is a medium trying to remember the word emo. 768 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,880 Speaker 1: And I think what hasn't helped either is with the 769 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,359 Speaker 1: onset of like we on the onset with the popularity 770 00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:10,839 Speaker 1: of WICCA the emoji, not the emoji. That's when I'm talking. 771 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:12,719 Speaker 1: What is that group of people that it is like 772 00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,880 Speaker 1: all about emotions. You have brunched people, and then you 773 00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:20,040 Speaker 1: have another group of people, Oh email, like the email. Yeah, 774 00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:22,680 Speaker 1: I do have another one. Here's a medium trying to 775 00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,759 Speaker 1: remember who Bernie mac is. Well, I wish I could 776 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,279 Speaker 1: think of who the guy was. Oh look, yeah, let 777 00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:32,320 Speaker 1: me know if you remember. Yeah, And now what was 778 00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:38,720 Speaker 1: he in the movie where um Ashton Pucher was marrying 779 00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:46,480 Speaker 1: his daughter something Bernie Mac oh, yeah, you know, And 780 00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:48,799 Speaker 1: I didn't have to stop it up. It came to me. 781 00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:55,040 Speaker 1: Bernie mac came through. H yeah, yeah, goodbye, see you 782 00:50:55,080 --> 00:51:13,360 Speaker 1: next time. The A one word heres