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Speaker 1: Is the holiday season when we get extra beef, or

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Speaker 1: at least some of us do with the sports that

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Speaker 1: we cover. And that's a Rod versus Bud Selig in

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Speaker 1: this particular sport of baseball off season talk and hall

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Speaker 1: of Fame talk. So, guys, I'll read the quote from

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Speaker 1: a Rod. He was talking to stephen A. Smith on

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Speaker 1: his show. And remember this has to do with a

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Speaker 1: Rod talking hall of fame. They had been mentioning guys

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Speaker 1: like Maguire and Bonds and Clemens. A Rod is on

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Speaker 1: his fifth chance on the ballot here coming up. He

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Speaker 1: hasn't gotten to forty percent you need seventy five percent.

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Speaker 1: His numbers are not trending in a direction that's going

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Speaker 1: to get him in with the writers. Okay, he told

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Speaker 1: stephen A all of this stuff you're talking about was

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Speaker 1: under bud Selig's watch. And the fact that those two

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Speaker 1: guys are not in talking about Bonds and Clemens, but

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Speaker 1: somehow Bud Selig is in the Hall of Fame. That

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Speaker 1: to me feels like there's a little bit somepocrisy around that.

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Speaker 1: You can see here we're showing you. Matt Snyder, writing

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Speaker 1: the column for CBS Sports, covering the quote He also

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Speaker 1: mentioned how bud Selig was inducted into the Hall of

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Speaker 1: Fame after getting enough votes from that Today's Game Era committee,

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Speaker 1: So that wasn't a vote in from the writers. That's

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Speaker 1: a sixteen person committee. We see a lot of those

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Speaker 1: committees pop up for players, and then they also can

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Speaker 1: pop up for a commissioner like Seelig. He also pointed

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Speaker 1: out how yes Selig was the main man in charge

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Speaker 1: of the sport for a good chunk of the steroid era,

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Speaker 1: and he also was involved in owner collusion, a scandal

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Speaker 1: back in the nineteen eighties. And for Snyder, he's like,

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Speaker 1: that's why I alone would not have voted him into

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Speaker 1: the Hall of Fame, but that was not up to

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Speaker 1: the writers. So Kratz, what do you think of a

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Speaker 1: Rod's claim here against bud Selig?

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Speaker 2: When Airod says a lot of things, I rarely disagree

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Speaker 2: with what he says. I feel like this is something

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Speaker 2: that has been very well swept under the rug by

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Speaker 2: Major League Baseball because they were very complicit in the

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Speaker 2: steroid era. They were making a lot of money. What

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Speaker 2: brought baseball back. Sosa and Maguire brought it back after

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Speaker 2: the strike, which was caused by the owners, which was caused.

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Speaker 2: Like there, you can argue on both sides of this,

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Speaker 2: but if you were going to penalize guys who did

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Speaker 2: the steroids, to me, there has to be some type

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Speaker 2: of penalty unless you're just saying, well, major League Baseball

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Speaker 2: knew nothing about this, and they knew a lot about it.

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Speaker 2: They didn't want to disrupt what they had going on,

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Speaker 2: so they said, you guys, keep hitting your dangers. And

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Speaker 2: then when the courts and the Supreme Court got involved,

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Speaker 2: they said, oh, yeah, well these players, they're bad. All

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Speaker 2: these guys are bad. And you know what happens, KP.

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Speaker 2: When you point your finger at somebody three fingers pointing

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Speaker 2: right back at you. And I think it's something that

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Speaker 2: that needs to be questioned. I kind of agree with

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Speaker 2: ay Rod in this sense. And it's really rare that

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Speaker 2: I agree with what a Rod says, but in this

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Speaker 2: case I kind of do.

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Speaker 1: And I will say real quick, KP. Congress got involved.

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Speaker 1: I don't think Supreme Court, Congress got involved with the

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Speaker 1: pena and that famous well ye back and forth with

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Speaker 1: some players. Yeah, exactly good challenge. But KP. Your thoughts

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Speaker 1: on this one is Bud Seeley getting away Scott free

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Speaker 1: while other players are being punished just when it comes

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Speaker 1: to Hall of Fame talk here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, more than likely. But I like to see the

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Speaker 3: Baseball Hall of Fame is supposed to be a museum

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Speaker 3: of the greatest players that ever played this game. There

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Speaker 3: are many different eras of baseball since the inception of baseball.

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Speaker 3: To not have Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Maguire Sosa, Roger Clemens,

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Speaker 3: players like that in the Hall of Fame, I think

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Speaker 3: it's doing a disservice for the game, doing a disservice

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Speaker 3: for the Hall of Fame. Was it a dark time

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Speaker 3: in baseball? Yes, but in the Hall of Fame there

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Speaker 3: can be a separate hallway of this dark era in baseball.

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Speaker 3: But these guys should be memorialized in there because they

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Speaker 3: are some of the greatest players to ever play the game.

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Speaker 3: And yes, they're gonna people that disagree with me and say, hey,

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Speaker 3: these guys cheated, they took pds, but there was probably

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Speaker 3: a lot of other players that were doing the same

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Speaker 3: things they were doing. These guys were just better than them.

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Speaker 2: I also think you're hang sorry, Scotty, you mentioned the

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Speaker 2: one thing they didn't test positive. Not all those guys

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Speaker 2: tested positive now now like because we're getting down to

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Speaker 2: more of the granular part of it. Yes, they're all

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Speaker 2: lumped in. They're all lumped in. And you know Andy

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Speaker 2: Pettitt was lumped in on that and he's come out

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Speaker 2: and spoken about it. Manny Ramirez is lumped in. Manny

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Speaker 2: Ramirez a rod. They're a little different, like they tested

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Speaker 2: positive and then they positive again. Like to me, there's

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Speaker 2: not a direct correlation. While they are associated with steroids

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Speaker 2: and they are, There's been many claims and people have

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Speaker 2: come out and said, yes, you know this guy definitely

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Speaker 2: took steroids. You can see how he improved and how

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Speaker 2: he got better when he was for all that stuff.

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Speaker 2: I'm not disagreeing with that, but we have to separate it.

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Speaker 2: When the testing came out and guys got tested and

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Speaker 2: tested positive, you're wiped out. You you knew the rules,

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Speaker 2: You weren't skirting by the rules, you knew them. You

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Speaker 2: intentionally broke them by doing that.

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Speaker 1: Yes, krats were on the same page. I was basically

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Speaker 1: going to say the same thing. What I'll add is

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Speaker 1: that I see the argument for both sides when it

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Speaker 1: comes to players like Bonds and clements. I do not

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Speaker 1: see the argument for both sides when it comes to

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Speaker 1: someone like Alex Rodriguez. Specific rules were in place, right

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Speaker 1: it was wild West, and then it wasn't. Testing was

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Speaker 1: put in place, suspensions were put in place, the game

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Speaker 1: got more serious about it. And for me, that's where

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Speaker 1: the difference is. So we can have debates all day,

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Speaker 1: and we've had tons of them. I think when it

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Speaker 1: comes to a player like a Rod, and yes, when

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Speaker 1: it comes to a player like Manny, they violated rules.

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Speaker 1: Everybody was well aware of them. You guys have to

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Speaker 1: pee all the time to get tested for royds and peds,

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Speaker 1: and a Rod broke those rules. And to me, I

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Speaker 1: do think an offense like that can be punishable with

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Speaker 1: no Hall of fame because we don't know how deep

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Speaker 1: it gets.

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Speaker 3: It.

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Speaker 1: Actually, this is the part where I agree with Kratz

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Speaker 1: and I agree with a Rod. There is hypocrisy when

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Speaker 1: it comes to Bud Selig. But soon before that quote,

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Speaker 1: A Rod spoke to Sports Illustrated and said, if you

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Speaker 1: look at the body of work of my twenty three

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Speaker 1: year career, say I averaged somewhere around forty two home

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Speaker 1: runs through those years in the time that I got

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Speaker 1: suspended for I think I hit five home runs. Talk

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Speaker 1: about a head fake and later spoke about it again.

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Speaker 1: The fact is I hit over forty home runs many many,

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Speaker 1: many many years, and then to make it a double

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Speaker 1: whammie what I got suspended for. I think I hit

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Speaker 1: like five to seven home runs. Sorry, not buying.

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Speaker 2: That tragic delusion, delusional think. I think we're all as

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Speaker 2: athletes or former athletes were delusional. I know when I

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Speaker 2: stand over a golf shot, I'm delusional. I'm like, this

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Speaker 2: one's going in, and the course of my career of golf,

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Speaker 2: it's never gone in. I'm delusional that I should have

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Speaker 2: been playing in the big leagues. In every pitch I

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Speaker 2: was going to see who I was going to hit

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Speaker 2: a homer. But eight Rodd's taking the delusion to another level,

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Speaker 2: Like if that's what he's truly telling himself, that's what

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Speaker 2: he truly believes that. I think he's lost touch with

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Speaker 2: reality of what he did, and he's trying to, I think,

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Speaker 2: in his own mind, make himself not look as guilty.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure, but five to seven home run like

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Speaker 2: he's cherry picking one year. Like anyway, I just I

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Speaker 2: have a hard time with this comment.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean when you when you get caught too,

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Speaker 3: is really the only time you come out and make

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Speaker 3: these type of statements that well, it really didn't help

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Speaker 3: that much, you know. But also you don't also really

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Speaker 3: tell the entirety of the truth how long were you

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Speaker 3: taking it? You only kind of segment it to, hey,

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Speaker 3: I got caught this year, so look at my numbers.

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Speaker 3: There was only five to seven more. But who really

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Speaker 3: knows how much longer someone was doing something before that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I would and I would say, people are

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Speaker 2: gonna be like, well, a Ron never got a Roon

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Speaker 2: never got caught other years. Aeron never got caught in

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Speaker 2: other years, and you just said he never got caught

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Speaker 2: those other years. Okay. You know what, when you get

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Speaker 2: caught doing something illegally rarely is that the first time? Rarely?

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Speaker 2: Did you? Like, it might have been the third or

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Speaker 2: fourth time, and then you finally got caught doing it

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Speaker 2: in that time. And in this case, there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of things that that point to the fact that it

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Speaker 2: was not the first time and he did it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a lot of fibbing over the course

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Speaker 1: of his career, and then correcting the fibbing and readmitting things.

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Speaker 1: And that went as deep as suing everybody that had

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Speaker 1: a pulse and then pulling back when everybody was like,

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Speaker 1: bring it on because we have a lot on you.

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Speaker 1: And then he pulled back and admitted things. So, yes,

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Speaker 1: there's a good and a bad to this conversation. It

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Speaker 1: started off on a good track where I do agree

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Speaker 1: with him. It's not necessarily fair because who was overseeing

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Speaker 1: the sport. Yes it was Bud Selig, but it is

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Speaker 1: what it is. He gets in and there was a

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Speaker 1: different standard for someone like him compared to players. And again,

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Speaker 1: it's always been illegal to use peds right, not even

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Speaker 1: just in baseball but in the country. Right, there's a

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Speaker 1: list of substances that you cannot use to help your performance.

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Speaker 1: The difference was there was, you know, a time period

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Speaker 1: where all of a sudden, the league really clamped down.

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Speaker 1: I've always been a guy that doesn't want you know,

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Speaker 1: the guys in regardless, but it gets dicey. You don't

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Speaker 1: know everybody that did or didn't use especially if we

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Speaker 1: go you know, back to the eighties, nineties and early

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Speaker 1: two thousands. We have guesses, we have stories, and we

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Speaker 1: know for a fact that there are multiple if not many,

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Speaker 1: many players that are in the Hall of Fame who

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Speaker 1: used peds. So some people say it already broke, let's

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Speaker 1: just do it, and my line is going to be

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Speaker 1: the positive test.

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Speaker 3: No, I think it's a fair line. Like you said,

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Speaker 3: I mean, there's probably multiple guys in there that will

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Speaker 3: never ever admit to it. Maybe they didn't look the part,

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Speaker 3: but there was definitely some performance enhancing and you could

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Speaker 3: go as far as saying that there was. It was

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Speaker 3: very well known in the game that people were taking ephetamines,

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Speaker 3: they were taking greenies, you know, just because they weren't

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Speaker 3: physically stronger and their muscles weren't bulging like some of

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Speaker 3: these players you you know see who take peds their

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Speaker 3: body changes. You know. I wasn't able to take you know,

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Speaker 3: adderall or greenies or things like that would allow my

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Speaker 3: focus or my energy to b level. So there is

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Speaker 3: kind of a blurred line in there. I do agree

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Speaker 3: with you, Scott. Guys that were tested and caught and

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Speaker 3: tested positive, they have no uh, they have no pathway

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Speaker 3: to being in the Hall of Fame for me. But

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Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of guys out there that

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Speaker 3: are being kind of lumped in this assumption without you know,

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Speaker 3: being proven guilty. I think there's some guys that are

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Speaker 3: really uh deserving of being in the Hall of Fame.

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Speaker 2: You said big muscles people about Look at Scott.

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Speaker 3: You guys, our territory doesn't test.

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Speaker 2: Thank goodness, they don't test for greatness, because I would

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Speaker 2: test positive every day.

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Speaker 1: Kratz is just pure genetic greatness. Right. Let me look

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Speaker 1: at person.

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Speaker 3: I gotta ask you a question about this blurred line,

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Speaker 3: Pete Rose. He obviously, you know, broke a rule. He's

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Speaker 3: gonna get in. They waited too long. Obviously he's not

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Speaker 3: around anymore. Like is there is there is there things

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Speaker 3: where you feel like, yes, they broke the rule. But

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Speaker 3: maybe there's guys that are it's still worth being in

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Speaker 3: the Hall of Fame. Maybe there's kind of a different

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Speaker 3: sort of threshold. Maybe you're not allowed to visit the hall,

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Speaker 3: maybe you're not allowed to be there when it's inducted.

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Speaker 3: But there's it is the history of our game, and

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Speaker 3: it's supposed to have some of the greatest players in there,

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Speaker 3: and unfortunately some of our greatest players did potentially break

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Speaker 3: some rules.

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Speaker 1: I don't think he's getting in, first of all, just

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Speaker 1: because he's eligible doesn't mean he gets in. Is he

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Speaker 1: going to get voted in by the writers? I don't

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Speaker 1: think so. He's going to get voted in by former players.

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. He broke a cardinal, cardinal rule,

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Speaker 1: and I don't think he's getting in. I really don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't see it for him. The eligibility thing was yes,

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Speaker 1: the commissioner, but we've spoken about that topic. That had

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Speaker 1: more to do with him appeasing an ask from a

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Speaker 1: president and then probably making some favor exchanges behind the scenes,

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Speaker 1: and also an easy thing to do for MLB, right,

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Speaker 1: they just throw it back on other people to vote for,

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Speaker 1: which I think is the right thing to do. But

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Speaker 1: I don't think he's going to get in. I agree, Okay, KP.

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Speaker 1: You do you think people? You think he'll get seventy

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Speaker 1: five percent from the writers? I don't think so.

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Speaker 3: I could see it happening. I could see it happening.

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Speaker 3: I know it was as a cardinal rule that was broken.

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Speaker 3: It was a long time ago. And you know, I've

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Speaker 3: been doing a little bit more research on Pete Rose

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Speaker 3: flying a lot during the postseason. I was able to

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Speaker 3: watch some more documentaries on the guy, and you know,

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Speaker 3: there's I hate that we take in the the the

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Speaker 3: way that Pete Rose may have treated other people or

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Speaker 3: the writers or people that were around him doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 3: nestlee take away from what he was able to accomplish

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Speaker 3: on the field. You know, I think a lot changes

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Speaker 3: when someone passes. I think you have a little bit

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Speaker 3: more time to kind of reflect. I think you have

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Speaker 3: a lot you know now that he's not kind of

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Speaker 3: running his mouth. He's no longer with us anymore. You know,

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Speaker 3: Is it going to happen in year one? Probably not?

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Speaker 3: Year two? Probably not. But I could see a path

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Speaker 3: for because I think what he was able to do

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Speaker 3: as a player in the game is something worth being

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Speaker 3: remembered and worthy of being in the hall. I don't

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Speaker 3: know that. Maybe that's just my opinion, maybe it's not

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Speaker 3: a popular take, but I hate that he broke the rule.

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Speaker 3: I hate that there's people that broke the rule. I

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Speaker 3: hate knowing that I played against players that were probably

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Speaker 3: breaking the rules and that we're probably punching me out.

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Speaker 3: And I know that thereas guys that were caught and

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Speaker 3: tested positive and I don't get those statistics back. So

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Speaker 3: I mean, yes, I'm on the fence with a lot

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Speaker 3: of stuff. I just think that the Hall of Fame

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Speaker 3: could potentially have maybe a different section of these guys

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Speaker 3: that kind of fall into this category, because I think

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Speaker 3: they're worthy of being there, even though that maybe they

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Speaker 3: broke some rules.

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Speaker 1: They have a lot for those guys. If you go

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Speaker 1: up to Cooperstown, they just don't have plaques like you

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Speaker 1: can still learn all about them. It's a museum. So

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Speaker 1: that's the counterpoint. Let's finish with this, KP. If you're

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Speaker 1: playing for a manager who bets on your team to

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Speaker 1: win games but not all of those games, felt like

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Speaker 1: it altered the way that your season played out, and

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Speaker 1: it really altered the ethics of the sport, do you

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Speaker 1: think that person would be worthy of making it to

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Speaker 1: the Hall.

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Speaker 3: Of Fame betting on my team to win selectively?

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Speaker 1: Selectively, because if you really think your team's gonna win,

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Speaker 1: they're gonna bet every time. When you bet selectively, that

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Speaker 1: means they're going to alter the way that you manage

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Speaker 1: the game. You know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 3: I could see, but you also, I mean, I don't bet.

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Speaker 3: I don't sports bet that much too, but I'm not

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Speaker 3: just kind of betting on the same team to win

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Speaker 3: every game I'm taking in you know who they're playing,

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Speaker 3: who's starting, you know, obviously knowing my roster, who's injured

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Speaker 3: and stuff like that. Yeah, I mean I could see

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Speaker 3: where I could see where it can get a little

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Speaker 3: bit messy. But I don't think any manager, even without

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Speaker 3: the betting scandal of it, is going to say, hey,

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Speaker 3: I truly believe my team's gonna win every night. I

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Speaker 3: would put my own money on the line because you

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Speaker 3: have the pulse of your clubhouse. Do you know who's

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Speaker 3: you know, you have a core secret, maybe his hamm,

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Speaker 3: he's not doing right where you know, my starting pitcher

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Speaker 3: is kind of a little bit banged up, Like you're

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Speaker 3: not truly going to put your money where your mouth

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Speaker 3: is every night. You have to put on this front

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Speaker 3: you believe your team's gonna win every night. But if

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Speaker 3: you were allowed to bet on your team, I don't

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Speaker 3: think a manager would bet on their team to win

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Speaker 3: every single day. They take a pulse of the room,

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Speaker 3: they have a good feel for who the matchup, who

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Speaker 3: they're they're facing, who's starting on the other side. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: I mean, I don't love that he did it, I

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Speaker 3: really don't, But I think it's better than him betting

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Speaker 3: on his team to lose. I think that would really

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Speaker 3: change the integrity of how he would manage his team.

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Speaker 1: To me, just to me, and I'm a betting man.

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Speaker 1: When you're betting, let's say, out of one hundred and

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Speaker 1: sixty too, you're betting one hundred times for your team

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Speaker 1: to win those sixty two games are not going to

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Speaker 1: be looked at the same from the better if the

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Speaker 1: guy is betting like that, right, I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: use my big boy out of the bullpen tonight. I

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Speaker 1: didn't bet on this one. I got tomorrow's game. It's

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Speaker 1: it's bad, it's bad ethics for the sport. That's just

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Speaker 1: my take.

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Speaker 3: No, I agree with you. I mean, obviously, this happened

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Speaker 3: a long time ago, but I think if that was

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Speaker 3: happening in today's game, which I mean sadly it kind

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Speaker 3: of still is from a player's perspective, that's another conversation.

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Speaker 3: But I feel like it would be a lot harder

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Speaker 3: to get away with those things because we have so

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Speaker 3: much information on players right now, and players are so

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Speaker 3: much more outspoken. If a situation in a game came

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Speaker 3: up where it was very obvious to go to certain

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Speaker 3: guys in the bullpen, and they were healthy and available.

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Speaker 3: You have to answer questions about it, and those players

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Speaker 3: are going to answer questions about it, and then it

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Speaker 3: starts to become very obvious. Oh maybe this is a

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Speaker 3: game you can look back and be like, oh, it

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Speaker 3: makes total sense. He didn't bet on his team that game,

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Speaker 3: so he didn't use X, Y, and Z. So I

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Speaker 3: do think it is slightly different now. It would be

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Speaker 3: interesting if someone kind of went down that rabbit hole

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Speaker 3: of Okay, these are the games that he betted on.

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Speaker 3: This is how he used his bullpen or his bench

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Speaker 3: to see if he was kind of altering the way

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Speaker 3: that he was managing games depending on the games that

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Speaker 3: he was betting on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a hot topic.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's an interesting topic. I mean, I don't

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Speaker 3: want to come out and get a cheat on the game.

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Speaker 3: And if you're really good, you deserve to get in there.

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Speaker 3: I'm just a big believer in the Hall of Fame.

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Speaker 3: I think the I think the Hall of Fame. I

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Speaker 3: don't know. There's a been interesting take to Baseball is

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Speaker 3: clearly the hardest Hall of Fame to get in of

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Speaker 3: any of the major sports that the bar is set

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Speaker 3: so incredibly high that when there are these certain generational

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Speaker 3: type of players. You know, obviously Pete Rose being the

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Speaker 3: guy who has the most hits in baseball, a Rod

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Speaker 3: being this kind of unicorn talent, Obviously he's in a

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Speaker 3: different category because he did was did receive a suspension

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Speaker 3: and was you know, caught. But there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: these other guys where you have these five hundred homer

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Speaker 3: guys that aren't in, and there's some other guys. It

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Speaker 3: just feels like sometimes it's a lot of picking and

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Speaker 3: choosing did we like the guy's personality? Do we like this?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 3: I think there should the bar should come down a

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Speaker 3: little bit because I think the greatest players that ever

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Speaker 3: played this game, and if you ask their peers, was

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Speaker 3: this guy a Hall of Famer? And they go, no doubt,

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Speaker 3: But the guy's not in the Hall of Fame. That's

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Speaker 3: where I get a little bit muddy in the water

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Speaker 3: with the Hall of Fame.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I got it separating punishment from the performance of

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Speaker 1: the player, but it does blur lines. Let's do this.

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Speaker 1: If you're watching right now, let us know your thoughts

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Speaker 1: in the comments section and subscribe to foul Territory baseball

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Speaker 1: the way it should be covered. We hit these topics

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Speaker 1: all the time.