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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, A production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday and Holly Frye and

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Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V.

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Speaker 2: Wilson.

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Speaker 1: So we talked about Caneletto this week, which sometimes I

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Speaker 1: say with the heart tea and sometimes I get it.

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Speaker 2: I let it be a little softer.

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Speaker 1: I did it both ways in the show on purpose,

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Speaker 1: so nobody feels like they have to do it one

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Speaker 1: way or the other. He is such an interesting figure

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Speaker 1: to me because the whole thing I kept thinking while

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Speaker 1: reading his story, particularly how his his career. I mean,

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Speaker 1: even though his paintings are exquisite, in my opinion, his

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Speaker 1: career was considered such commercial art.

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Speaker 2: Uh huh.

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Speaker 1: That I'm like, is this like if one day, one

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Speaker 1: hundred years or more from now, someone is going to

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Speaker 1: find the work of like a beach Town air Rush

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Speaker 1: painter and be like, this was truly the greatest painter

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Speaker 1: of that age.

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Speaker 2: I was.

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Speaker 1: I had the same mental conversation, but with one specific artist.

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Speaker 1: And I'm afraid if I say who it is, people

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Speaker 1: are going to come for me with the pitchforks. Okay,

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Speaker 1: don't say it, but do tell me later. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: say it anyway Thomas Kinkaid. Oh, Like, I am not

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Speaker 1: suggesting that their like artistic work is similar, but the

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Speaker 1: like the commercial nature of it, and how much focus

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Speaker 1: there was on light and shadow, and some of the

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Speaker 1: criticism about how much of it there was and how

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Speaker 1: some of it was similar to other of it, Like,

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of that that I was like,

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Speaker 1: this reminds me of things that people have said about

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Speaker 1: Thomas Kinkaid's understand that association. I even googled at one

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Speaker 1: point Caniletto Thomas Kinkaid comparison question mark.

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Speaker 2: I'd found no results that I remember. Oh I love it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it does make me consider would I'm

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Speaker 1: sure he would have. Would Caneletto, had he been alive

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Speaker 1: in the modern era, been like, yes, let's sell prints, Yes,

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Speaker 1: let's absolutely make wallpaper out of my work. Yes, let's

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Speaker 1: absolutely Like I think probably.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's for sure trademark the term painter of light.

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Speaker 1: Right, because I mean he really was if he was

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Speaker 1: churning out like multiple canvas bases at a time that

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Speaker 1: were basically the same scene and then being like, oh,

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Speaker 1: when somebody orders a view of the scene, I'll just

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Speaker 1: paint in the the you know, celebration or the you

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Speaker 1: know Day of Flowers or whatever.

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Speaker 2: That they want.

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Speaker 1: Great, I mean, he was not afraid of money. It's

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Speaker 1: interesting though. We talked at the end about that idea

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Speaker 1: that he had no serious rivals, and we mentioned in

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Speaker 1: the episode that there was another painter named Mary Eski

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Speaker 1: who came along in the early seventeen forties and people

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Speaker 1: were like, ooh, competition. I didn't find it until much

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Speaker 1: later in a footnote that like, even if he was

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Speaker 1: any competition, it was not for long, because Mariski died

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Speaker 1: in seventeen forty three, so he would not have really

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Speaker 1: caused any big stir Yeah, very long. In this episode,

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Speaker 1: I was really captivated by the idea. I'm sure there

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Speaker 1: are still people who do this. It is not something

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Speaker 1: that has ever been within my means or wall space,

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Speaker 1: but the idea that people would go to travel to

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Speaker 1: Venice and as a souvenir commission a big landscape painting.

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Speaker 1: I was very intrigued by that whole idea. You and

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Speaker 1: I have been on trips together before, where like I've

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Speaker 1: seen you by multiple pieces of artwork, but like never

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Speaker 1: something of the scale that Caneletto was often doing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of a comparison. I know that

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Speaker 1: once when we were in New Orleans, I bought a

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Speaker 1: big piece of art and had it shipped because that

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Speaker 1: was not going to make it onto a flight. No

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Speaker 1: it was not, I remember, but it wasn't quite as big.

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Speaker 1: And then later I went back to the same gallery

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Speaker 1: some less than a year later, and the companion piece too,

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Speaker 1: it was still there and I had to buy that.

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Speaker 2: So that oh so good.

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Speaker 1: So yeah them both not landscapes, but in fact paintings

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Speaker 1: of the Bride and Frankenstein's Monster. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: which I love and they hang in my living room.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that idea. I'm like, yes, we should

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Speaker 2: absolutely start doing that.

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Speaker 1: I have a little buying art problem. We have too

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Speaker 1: many pieces of art at this point, and I don't

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Speaker 1: know what we're going to do about it. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, I like supporting artists. I like pretty things.

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Speaker 1: What Patrick had his his you know, a little portrait

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Speaker 1: done in montmart while we were there a couple back

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Speaker 1: before or the pandemic twenty nineteen, and I I like,

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Speaker 1: I think that's still rolled up in the tube.

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Speaker 2: It was a moment.

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Speaker 1: We have a lot of artwork in our house that

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Speaker 1: we need to like get framed and hang up. And

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Speaker 1: then also I think need to think about like how

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Speaker 1: to rotate pieces through because we have more art than

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Speaker 1: we can put on yes walls.

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Speaker 2: It's very tricky.

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Speaker 1: I will say this, and I this is a confession

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Speaker 1: of what a ding dong I can sometimes be. Even

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Speaker 1: when I know I am going to a museum that

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Speaker 1: has came littos or even two sea came littos, there's

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Speaker 1: always the moment where I first walk in the room

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Speaker 1: and from a distance go, oh, are they doing a

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Speaker 1: photography exhibit? Because from a brief distance they look so

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Speaker 1: real that it's happened to me more than once, so

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Speaker 1: that's so fun. And then I go, oh, no, this

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Speaker 1: is that room. Okay, great, great, great great great. It's

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Speaker 1: not like you know, the National Gallery normally has a big,

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Speaker 1: weird modern photography exhibit in the mid in the middle

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Speaker 1: of like one of its halls. But I always think

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Speaker 1: it for a second because my brain is not great.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk also briefly about Mcswhiney's idea of

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Speaker 1: having like three different painters work on one painting together

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Speaker 1: multiple paintings, each of which would have three different painters.

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Speaker 1: In my experience, artistic collaborations are pretty difficult, you know,

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Speaker 1: Like I have friends who are artists. I've worked on

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Speaker 1: stuff with people. Two people that are really like minded

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Speaker 1: can do that pretty easily. Three seems dangerous, especially when

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Speaker 1: it's a random collector, outside party selecting the artists. That

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Speaker 1: just seems like it would lead to a lot of Well,

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Speaker 1: my background looks perfect. I don't know what's going on

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Speaker 1: in that foreground, Like, I'm just it's a fascinating and

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Speaker 1: cool idea. Yeah, and there are some of those paintings

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Speaker 1: that exist and you can see them and they're very interesting.

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Speaker 1: But I just I marvel at like who was like,

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Speaker 1: you know what we need to do is make a

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Speaker 1: bunch of artists work together. That seems good. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I know why this project didn't get finished. I know why,

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Speaker 1: aside from anybody not having you know, and whether there

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Speaker 1: was a conflict among them or not. Just like the

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Speaker 1: idea of deliverables being like, Okay, you have to have

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Speaker 1: your part done by this, and nobody else can work

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Speaker 1: until you do, Like that is a recipe for never finishing. Yeah, yeah, amazing, amazing.

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Speaker 1: I want to go back to the National Gallery and

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Speaker 1: spend more time there. But the problem is that when

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Speaker 1: you're traveling, your time is finite. Yeah, yeah, because you

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Speaker 1: could spend multiple days in any of.

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Speaker 2: The great museums of the world.

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Speaker 1: Sure can I just have like a sleepover week at

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Speaker 1: the Louver, But then, like, you're not seeing all the

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Speaker 1: other stuff in Paris, Yes, true of One of my

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Speaker 1: true regrets of our trip to Paris was that I

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Speaker 1: did not pre plan our Louve visit and like make

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Speaker 1: a list of what I really wanted to see to

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Speaker 1: prioritize those things, and.

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Speaker 2: We saw a lot of great art.

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Speaker 1: There was stuff I would have loved to see that

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Speaker 1: I didn't even realize was there until afterward. It was

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Speaker 1: like it's just so big and so overwhelming, and parts

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Speaker 1: of it are so incredibly crowded that like, if there

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Speaker 1: are things that are important to you, good to have

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Speaker 1: a plan ahead of time. I don't know if they're

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Speaker 1: still doing this, but when we were there, the audio

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Speaker 1: tour that you could get was on I don't remember

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Speaker 1: what handheld console, and it was incredibly cool.

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Speaker 2: Getting that great plan.

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Speaker 1: Not planning ahead for what we wanted to look at

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Speaker 1: not the best plan for us. I feel compelled to

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Speaker 1: mention that I did also see. The one painting I

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Speaker 1: was after at the National Gallery was vig Lebron's self portrait,

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Speaker 1: which is and as I said, mem a new friend

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Speaker 1: of ours. We met her in New York earlier this

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Speaker 1: year and it turned out she lives out just outside

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Speaker 1: of Cambridge and was like, hey, look me up when

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Speaker 1: you're in England, and I was like, okay, and we did,

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Speaker 1: and she was delightful. But she doesn't know me that well.

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Speaker 1: And she did get to see me start to cry in.

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Speaker 2: Front of art because they were ugly crying.

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Speaker 1: Every time every time.

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Speaker 2: Cannot help it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what it is, don't even don't even

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Speaker 1: know what it is, just spectacularly beautiful.

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Speaker 2: So good. We talked about Jean Baptiste Lulie.

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Speaker 1: This week, yes, which I should say I did not

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Speaker 1: mean to do to theatrical slash opera. E connected things

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Speaker 1: one right on top of the other. Yeah. We have

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Speaker 1: kind of a brief run of episodes that are sort

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Speaker 1: of all about creative pursuits in.

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Speaker 2: Some way, I'll call it that way.

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Speaker 1: And it was just.

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Speaker 2: Accidental alignment of things, right.

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Speaker 1: Yes, in my case, we had canaletto who painted backdrops

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Speaker 1: for opera, and then of course who was completely ingrained

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Speaker 1: in that world so much that he owned it essentially. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then we have a forthcoming one that is not

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Speaker 1: recorded yet. Yes, make Way, make Way for Arts. I

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Speaker 1: have mentioned to you. I kind of said it at

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Speaker 1: the end of the episode, and I know we've talked

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Speaker 1: about it additionally that, like Lulie has this reputation for

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Speaker 1: being kind of a pain in the neck, But I

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Speaker 1: have to admire the fact that he did achieve all

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Speaker 1: of his ambitions. Yeah, he had things he set out

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Speaker 1: to do and he did them. Yeah, he wanted to

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Speaker 1: be a noble, he wanted to have money, and he

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Speaker 1: wanted to have name recognition, and he got all of

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Speaker 1: it in abundance. Seems like he was kind of manipulative

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Speaker 1: and ruthless.

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Speaker 2: And doing it.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, it's it's the ruthlessness I don't love.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not my favorite part of his story either.

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Speaker 1: I cannot imagine. I keep trying to think of a

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Speaker 1: comparison one could possibly make to what it would be

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Speaker 1: like if one creative in any field, but we'll say music,

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Speaker 1: just to make it easy, suddenly became the only person

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Speaker 1: in their country allowed to make music without other people

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Speaker 1: paying them a fee.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when we were in.

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Speaker 1: Paris back in like twenty nineteen, I think that's the

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Speaker 1: year we did that. We were on a walking tour

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Speaker 1: and I don't remember which like French cultural institution we

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Speaker 1: were standing in front of, but our guide was talking

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Speaker 1: about the like French theater being so locked down in

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Speaker 1: terms of what could be performed, and having lived my

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Speaker 1: whole life in the United States, that whole idea was

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Speaker 1: very foreign to me. Like it was just you know,

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Speaker 1: I I've always lived in a place where people like

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Speaker 1: you might have to license the play from the person

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Speaker 1: who wrote it, but like that people could do whatever

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Speaker 1: they wanted.

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Speaker 2: You could write your own play just.

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Speaker 1: Because like the theater wasn't going to have anything happening

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Speaker 1: one weekend and be like, all right, we're gonna just

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Speaker 1: write something so this theater won't be dark this weekend.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean right.

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Speaker 1: So there's the way those rules worked. Like I imagine

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Speaker 1: a stream musician could still play, but as soon as

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Speaker 1: you have two musicians too many, and that there was

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Speaker 1: I didn't include it because there were a series of

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Speaker 1: pieces of legislation or royal decrease that basically kept reducing

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Speaker 1: that number down to the ones we mentioned, where like

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Speaker 1: it was like no, eight and then six and then two,

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Speaker 1: which to me just seems I mean at that point, like,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, ya, but what about parties where people.

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Speaker 2: In public places? Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: I compare it to things like Ireland's pub tradition where

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Speaker 1: musicians just all show up together and play kind of spontaneously,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, well, that wouldn't have been allowed. Utterly,

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Speaker 1: utterly fascinating. We did not mention in the episode, and

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Speaker 1: I meant to that I did not get into a

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Speaker 1: lot of the technical ways that Lulie changed music, Oh sure,

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Speaker 1: because I think I would have needed to take a

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Speaker 1: music theory class to really understand a lot of it.

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Speaker 1: Even in really basic write ups that I was reading,

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Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know what.

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Speaker 2: These words mean.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I am not, you know, entirely ignorant to

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Speaker 1: opera and music, but I still was like, this is

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Speaker 1: beyond me, and I didn't want to go down a

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Speaker 1: rabbit hole that was not so much about his life

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Speaker 1: but about a lot of technicalities. Yeah. I've had the

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Speaker 1: same basic reaction in some of the episodes that I've

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Speaker 1: researched before, even in fields that I do feel like

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Speaker 1: I have some education in, right, like my bachelor's degree

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Speaker 1: in literature, but looking at literature from especially not not

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Speaker 1: anywhere in Europe or North America, or sometimes places are

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Speaker 1: in Europe and North America, but with like a literary

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Speaker 1: tradition that's very different from what I learned. Sometimes I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what any of these literary styles are.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what any of these tropes. I know

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Speaker 2: what none of this means.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because there's cultural stuff too. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I hope we captured enough of it just in talking

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Speaker 1: about how he approached finding ways to get French language

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Speaker 1: to be part of the operatic tradition, which to me

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Speaker 1: feels like the most important piece of it. Without getting

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Speaker 1: into the musical technicality. I also didn't want to do

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Speaker 1: that thing where I try to talk about a thing

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Speaker 1: I don't really know about it and I end up

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Speaker 1: making a bungle of it and giving people wrong information sure,

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Speaker 1: or making actual musically knowledgeable people cry, yeah you know

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Speaker 1: what that? I kept thinking in the midst of all

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Speaker 1: of this, sort of like Louise and Enfonteribe m about

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Speaker 1: the fact about two things. One the way his fortune

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Speaker 1: has never really been able to be properly assessed because

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Speaker 1: he did have money coming from many different revenue streams.

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Speaker 1: I only stumbled across the piece of information about him

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Speaker 1: being a landlord with you know, two buildings of flats

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Speaker 1: that he was collecting rent on pretty late in the game,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, what does this it talk about?

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Speaker 2: Anywhere else that I saw.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it is somewhere, probably in a French language book,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't stumble across it until pretty late. And

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Speaker 1: even the counts of how many houses he had are

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Speaker 1: different from account to account. I kind of err on

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Speaker 1: the side of like the lower numbers just to not

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Speaker 1: accidentally overinflate, but like, he just had so many different

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Speaker 1: ways he was making money that I would not be

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Speaker 1: surprised if there was an entire revenue stream nobody has

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Speaker 1: actually really realized yet. The other thing, though, I think

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Speaker 1: an argument could be made. I'm not saying it's correct

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Speaker 1: or good, but an argument could be made that part

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Speaker 1: of Louie's kind of ruthlessness about really dictating what could

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Speaker 1: and could not be performed in France was in support

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Speaker 1: of King Louis the fourteenth effort to make artistic excellence

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Speaker 1: kind of the national identity of the country, right. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't know how much of that either would have

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Speaker 1: been the driver for Louie to be such a task

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Speaker 1: master with the people that worked under him, or if

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Speaker 1: he was naturally that way, and so that with the

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Speaker 1: King's desires fed into that really sort of very anal retentive.

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Speaker 1: No one can play unless I say so, because I

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Speaker 1: don't trust them. I mean, you can make the case

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Speaker 1: that it worked, because France does have that reputation to

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Speaker 1: this day.

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Speaker 2: Sure, but.

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Speaker 1: It's an interesting way to get it. You know, France

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Speaker 1: renowned for its music, ballet, m visual arts, everything, and

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Speaker 1: there was tons of scientific discovery happening. Then the death

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Speaker 1: by Cane. Poke's usually what people will say in passing

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Speaker 1: about him. He's kind of like a footnote y joke

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Speaker 1: at times.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but like.

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Speaker 1: This follows on the heels of me saying there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of scientific discovery going on, you know, yes, but

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Speaker 1: also I don't know how comfortable the concept of amputation

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Speaker 1: would have been, even with the best doctors in the country. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this this is We've had a couple of episodes recently

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Speaker 1: where somebody died from an infection and seems like probably

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Speaker 1: the treatment they got like was not great even given

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Speaker 1: the standards of the time, but also so like infections

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Speaker 1: were an incredibly common cause of death, So if he

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Speaker 1: had gotten that amputation, he still may have died from

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Speaker 1: like either the gangering issue or some other infection, even

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Speaker 1: if he had taken prompt action. It was just Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there were no antibiotics and a lot of people died

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Speaker 1: of pretty minor injuries for that reason. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: that would have been just another big open wound, depending

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Speaker 1: on the nature of the stitch up had he gotten in.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting because the thing about not being able

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Speaker 1: to dance anymore gets quoted a lot, but I could

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Speaker 1: see him saying that Morris an excuse, so he wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have to say I don't trust you. I also have

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Speaker 1: some questions about the pounding out the time on the

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Speaker 1: stage with a sharpened cane, Like was this audible to

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Speaker 1: people in the audience? I sure would hate that a lot,

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Speaker 1: and I've if it was audible to me. That was

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Speaker 1: a little fun because he was so exacting in terms

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Speaker 1: of what he wanted from the performers and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: but if you were also making it so the audience

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Speaker 1: had this relentless pounding happening during like that just does

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Speaker 1: not seem excellent to me. Yeah, I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: guess when it's all new, you get to make the rules.

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Speaker 1: Of course, opera has a metronomic sound that goes along

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Speaker 1: with it continually that you could accidentally puncture through your

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Speaker 1: foot with.

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Speaker 2: That doesn't sound good at all.

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Speaker 1: You know, it does sound good. Rest and relaxation. I

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Speaker 1: hope everybody listening gets some this weekend. If this is

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Speaker 1: not how your time lines up so that you have

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Speaker 1: a regular weekend like other people might, I hope you

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Speaker 1: still find some time to yourself to recharge and have

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Speaker 1: some quiet in your mind. If that is what helps

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Speaker 1: you recharge, or do you just find something that brings

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Speaker 1: you delight and joy. Nobody can tell you what to do,

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Speaker 1: make whatever art you want. Hopefully we will be right

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Speaker 1: back here tomorrow with a classic and on Monday with

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Speaker 1: a brand new episode. Stuff You Missed in History Class

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Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

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Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

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Speaker 1: to your favorite shows,