1 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Previously on hot money. 2 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 2: He would probably be interested to take the Russian side, 3 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 2: because for him, Russia would be acting properly and more 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 2: correct than the West. 5 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 3: For example, I would say that we are actually at 6 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 3: the doorstep of a new ideological war where discounts again 7 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 3: as a motive for becoming an agent, for becoming an informer, 8 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 3: because you want to contribute in this geopolitical power struggle 9 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 3: going on between East and West. 10 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: It was a bitterly cold morning in February twenty eighteen 11 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: in Vienna. The snow in the gutters and on the 12 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: rooftops had hardened into gray ice. At a busy intersection 13 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: on the outskirts of the city stand two tall white 14 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: stucco buildings set at a right angle to each other, 15 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: over decorated with pediments and such in the usual Viennese 16 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: imperial style. Between the two buildings is a huge armored 17 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: gray gate. There's no sign, no indication at all of 18 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: what this place is, just a small plaque that tells 19 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: you its property managed by the government. But every window 20 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: is mirrored in dark blue iridescent glass. This is the BVT, 21 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 1: the bundes Ampt feuva fassen Schutz on Terorrismus BEKEMPHL, Austria's 22 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: intelligence agency. At first it seemed like a routine visit. 23 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: The buzzer for the outer gate sounded and the duty 24 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: watchman saw the image of a single individual dressed in 25 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: civilian clothes flicker up on his screen. The visitor holds 26 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: up a police ID badge and he says he has 27 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: a meeting in the building. The watchman flicks a switch 28 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: to operate the first gate, and the policeman swings through 29 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: the big iron single person turnstile, steps into a gray 30 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: room on the other side, and it's at this point 31 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: that things take an unexpected turn. The man the watchman, 32 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: just let in. He's no ordinary policeman. He slams past 33 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: two officers in the little gray room and through the 34 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: open door of the guardhouse control room and demands the 35 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: master key. He's here under orders from the Ministry of Justice, 36 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 1: he says, acting on behalf of the Anti Corruption Bureau, 37 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: and he's got a warrant. Under pressure the duty watchman, 38 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: he folds, this was not in his training. He gives 39 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: the policeman the master key. The gray gate swings open 40 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: and then at speed from places hidden on side streets, 41 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: not far from the gates, vans scream into action and 42 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,519 Speaker 1: drive into the courtyard. Inside the vans are dozens of 43 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: police officers wearing balaclavas. They get out and they pour 44 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: into the building. This is the day that Austria's intelligence 45 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: service was on the brink of being hijacked by a 46 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: foreign power, a foreign power working so deeply in the 47 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: shadows that it turned the Austrian security services against each other. 48 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: What would unfold reveals how seemingly small acts of misdirection 49 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: and slow manipulation can compromise the national security of a 50 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: whole country, a kind of intelligence operation that Russia is 51 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: very good at, and that it's put to use on 52 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: a decade long campaign to manipulate Europe's far right for 53 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: its own ends. The person behind what happened that day 54 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: in Vienna is someone whose name you know well by now, 55 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: Jan Marselek. I'm Sam Jones from the Financial Times and 56 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. This is Hot Money Season three, Agent of Chaos, 57 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: Episode six, Maestro. To learn more about what happened that 58 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: day at the BVT, I sat down with Peter Gridling. 59 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 1: He served as Austria's intelligence chief, the head of the 60 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: BVT for more than a decade. What makes a good 61 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 1: intelligence officer. 62 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 4: Interest, first of all, interest in developments, interest in following 63 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 4: up things. A certain feeling because whenever you see that 64 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 4: something happens, you'll never know how this will develop. 65 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: That feeling is that sort of would you say intuition, 66 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I suppose what you've got often in this 67 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: world is only a few small bits of evidence. It's 68 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: never the whole picture. And what you're talking about is 69 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: the ability to see the links between them exactly. 70 00:04:58,800 --> 00:04:59,679 Speaker 4: It's often. 71 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: Peter is careful when he talks, deliberate, disinclined to make 72 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: definitive statements. Even for a career spy, He's remarkably taciturn 73 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: He was the man in charge when the raid on 74 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: the bvt's headquarters, the biggest disaster in the organization's history, 75 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: took place. A year before the raid, in twenty seventeen, 76 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: nine years into Peter's post, something strange happened. A thirty 77 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: nine page dossier was mailed to politicians, police, and a 78 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 1: group of Austrian journalists, A dossier of accusations against the BVT, 79 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: including against Peter. The dossier listed examples of alleged corruption 80 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: incompetence and conspiracy within the BVT. It also painted a 81 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: picture of an organization that was conspiring to keep Austria's 82 00:05:55,560 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: far right Freedom Party out of power. You might remember 83 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: the Freedom Party because they're the ones that ended up 84 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: in an Abethan Villa, appearing to make deals with someone 85 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: posing as a Russian oligarch's niece, all caught on tape. 86 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: The dossier was also spiced with lurid details of sex 87 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: parties that the BVT for good measure. Peter was baffled 88 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:21,799 Speaker 1: about where all these allegations came from. Although the detailed 89 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: knowledge the dossier contained about the bvt's personnel and operations 90 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: made Peter think it might be an insider. 91 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 4: I only had the opinion that it must be someone 92 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 4: on a higher level who has inside in Pavit. 93 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: The claims are so fantastical, though, that Peter feels he 94 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: won't have too much trouble pushing back against them. 95 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 4: When I read the allegations, I thought this is stupid, 96 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 4: and I offered myself to provide documentation that this is stupid. 97 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:55,799 Speaker 4: That isn't anything. 98 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, but things get a little more complicated when a 99 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: new government is formed. The Freedom Party gained control of 100 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: the Interior Ministry. The Interior Ministry is like the Department 101 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: of Homeland Security or the Home Office. It's the department 102 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: that's in charge of the security services. So the Freedom 103 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: Party are now in control of the BVT. The problem 104 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: is that dossier. It's seeded distrust, and the Freedom Party 105 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: are now paranoid that they're under threat from the BVT. 106 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: It's a bit like how Trump and the MAGA movement 107 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: have seemed to feel about the FBI, convinced that powerful 108 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: figures within the agency had been conspiring against them. This 109 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: all sounds quite tricky for Peter. He's a pragmatist, though, 110 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: and prosecutors don't take further action, so he pushes it 111 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: all to one side and hopes it'll go away. But 112 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: it turns out that this is only the start. 113 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 4: I never had an indication of what kind of problems 114 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 4: would come up, and so the twenty eighth of February 115 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 4: twenty eighteen was an absolute surprise. 116 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: When police swarm into the BVT on that cold winter's morning, 117 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: Peter Gridling is not in his office. He's across town 118 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: with his boss, the Secretary General of the Interior Ministry, 119 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: an urgent meeting. 120 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:33,199 Speaker 4: The Secretary General informed me that there are also investigations 121 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 4: against me. He presented to me the written allegation against me, 122 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 4: which was what which was that I have misused my 123 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:52,319 Speaker 4: authority to cases once I have not ordered the deletion 124 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 4: of data, and once I had allowed the storage of 125 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 4: data which was illegally obtained. And both of the cases 126 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 4: were nonsense. But I had the impression that at this 127 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 4: early stage of the official investigation, the prosecutor was not 128 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 4: really interested. They listened to me, they gave me a 129 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 4: chance to explain, but they didn't really listen to what 130 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 4: I said or look at the documentation that I offered 131 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 4: to provide. 132 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: Peter realizes that this is all linked back to that 133 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 1: anonymous dossier. Previously, prosecutors had dismissed the allegations about the BVT, 134 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: but now they seemed to be taking them seriously. 135 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 4: After all, we knew that the information based on the 136 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:54,319 Speaker 4: anonymous letters was never enough for the judiciary to take measures. 137 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 4: What has changed in the meantime that suddenly that. 138 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: Was when he finally gets out of the meeting, Peter 139 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,199 Speaker 1: speaks with panicked colleagues. They tell him what happened two 140 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: miles away at the bvt's headquarters. It sounds like it 141 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 1: was chaos. It seems like police didn't even really know 142 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: what they were looking for. They went from room to 143 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: room in the building indiscriminately snatching up documents. But the 144 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: BBT offices are labyrinthine, and since the whole layout of 145 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: this building and everything about it a secret, no one 146 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: even really knew where to go. Did they know what 147 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: they were looking for? Was it specific or they just 148 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: that was not very prepared. 149 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 4: When you don't know what you look for, you will 150 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 4: never find the information that you look for. If you 151 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 4: want to seize electronic information, you should know something about 152 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 4: the organization and the ID in order to be prepared 153 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 4: and not to come in and say where are your computers, 154 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 4: sir so. 155 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: But then one police squad they inadvertently do something disastrous. 156 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: They barge into the IT department itself. This is the 157 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 1: moment that the raids and shockwaves beyond the BVT, beyond 158 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: Austria even unfortunately. 159 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 4: One officer in the IDA was preparing for the annual 160 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 4: backup after in deligence system. That's why he had a 161 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 4: hard disk on his stableute which contained sensitive in delicence 162 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 4: and this hard disk was taken. 163 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: In fact, it was probably one of the most sensitive 164 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: things that the BVT has in its possession. This hard 165 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: disk doesn't just contain BVT intelligence, but also intelligence shared 166 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: under strict secrecy by partner agencies from all over the world, 167 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: classified documents from the CIA from Britain's MI five. Peter 168 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: and the senior leadership of the BVT go into crisis 169 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: mode that afternoon and it becomes pretty clear that they're 170 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: going to have to get in touch with their allies 171 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: and tell them what has just happened. 172 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 4: It was a shock well and was clearly expressed that 173 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 4: are badness that this influences Tick Corporation because b ray 174 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 4: not Abra could protect their interest. 175 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: I can't imagine those were comfortable conversations. No one likes 176 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: to have to call up a friend and tell them 177 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: that the thing they entrusted to you something secret and sensitive, 178 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: well it's no longer a secret. Only in this situation 179 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: lives could be at risk, details of sensitive operations, potential 180 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 1: information that could identify agents. The consequences are pretty dire. 181 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: Austria becomes an intelligence pariah when it's frozen out of 182 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 1: the club, a top secret club, the Clube de bern 183 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: can you explain what the Klube de Bern is? 184 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 5: No? 185 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: The Clube de Bern is a pan European intelligence network 186 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: named after the Swiss capital of Bern. Its workings are 187 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: highly secret officially, it has no secretariat, no physical presence. 188 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: All of Europe's spy chiefs are members and gather for 189 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: secret meetings several times a year to discuss the most 190 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 1: pressing issues on their agendas. And members of the club, 191 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: they use their resources to make sure other members are safe, 192 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: so not a good thing to be kicked out of. 193 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:46,679 Speaker 1: To add insult to injury, this ostracism, it becomes public knowledge. 194 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,079 Speaker 1: Someone leaks a communication that the club has sent to 195 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: its members. The document's header reads to all except BEVT Vienna. 196 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: The Austrian media have a field day. Peter's own situation meanwhile, 197 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: gets worse. The Interior Ministry suspends him and he finds 198 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: himself questioning everything, wondering how things have fallen apart so quickly? 199 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 4: Is there anything that you have done wrong? And your 200 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 4: thoughts of cost to you some nights, sir. 201 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: What he doesn't realize yet is that there is more 202 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: going on beneath the surface, because all of this is 203 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: being orchestrated by Jan Marselek and his associates. Peter Griddling 204 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: couldn't stop turning everything over in his head. Why had 205 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: the anonymous allegations made against him and the BVT suddenly 206 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: been taken seriously? He might never have found the answer 207 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: to that question or understood the events that led to 208 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: the raid, had there not been an unexpected change of 209 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: government in Austria in twenty nineteen. The year after the 210 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: raid happened, the Abetha scandal erupted and the far right 211 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: Freedom Party they got kicked out of government. The new 212 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: government it ordered a police inquiry into what became known 213 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: as the BVT affair. A special investigatory group was set 214 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: up called Urgay Farmer Farmer from the Greek word for 215 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: rumors Ourgae Farmer started out investigating the BVT affair, but 216 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: what it found out led it to switch its focus 217 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: to Jan Marselek. The first thing investigators wanted to get 218 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: to grips with were the events that had led to 219 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: the raid itself. What they soon found out was that 220 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: days before the raid, a crucial piece of written evidence 221 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: had landed on the desk of the anti corruption prosecutor 222 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: in Vienna. It was a witness statement sworn testimony from 223 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: one of the most senior employees of the BVT, and 224 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: it seemed to confirm that those anonymous allegations from the 225 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: previous year were true after all, that some kind of 226 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: conspiracy was underway, that the BVT was working to undermine 227 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: the far right Freedom Party, and this witness it was 228 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: the bvt's head of operations, one of the agency's most 229 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: powerful figures, one of Peter's deputies. 230 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:28,239 Speaker 4: That was Martinvice. 231 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: And how would you describe Martin Wece. 232 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 4: One of my biggest disappointments. 233 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: Peter and Martin Weiss had worked closely together for more 234 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: than twenty five years. 235 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 4: It was even more than the professional relationship. It was 236 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 4: kind of friendship. That's why I was really very disappointed. 237 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 6: About him, because he betrayed you. 238 00:16:58,080 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 4: That was my feeling. 239 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, Peter couldn't understand why Wess would have done this. 240 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 1: They'd had a disagreement at work the year before, but 241 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: nothing serious. Peter had put his foot down about something, 242 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 1: so maybe Wes was still angry with him. But as 243 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: Peter turned all of this over in his head, he 244 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: began to wonder if this was more than just a 245 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 1: workplace grievance. Because he also learned the name of the 246 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: person investigators suspected of writing the original dossier, someone who 247 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 1: happened to know Martin Weiss well. E. Gisto Ott, a burly, 248 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,679 Speaker 1: no nonsense former police inspector with a varied career working 249 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 1: for the BVT in counter terrorism around Europe. 250 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 4: He's a complicated personality and in teams was always a 251 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 4: problem with him. He could not be integrae. 252 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,199 Speaker 1: Ot had been on Peter's radar earlier for an entirely 253 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: different reason. Peter had suspended him and reported him for 254 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 1: suspected sponage. Peter said he'd been tipped off by a 255 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: partner agency, a major ally, who told him they had 256 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: evidence A. Gisto was a traitor, and it. 257 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 4: Went back to his time in Turkey, where he, according 258 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 4: to a source of the Batma service, he had many 259 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 4: contacts with Russian diligence officers, so there was the suspicion 260 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 4: that he got cultivated there and that might be the 261 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 4: case that he has worked for Russians here in Vienna. 262 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: Investigators thought there could be a Russian angle to the 263 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: BVT story too, and in January twenty twenty one they 264 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: arrested Ott and Vice both later got released, but only 265 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: after investigators had made copies of all their digital records 266 00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: and searched their houses. After Martin Weis was released, he disappeared. 267 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: He left Austria and moved to Dubai. We tried to 268 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 1: reach him but couldn't get in touch. In his interviews 269 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:14,199 Speaker 1: with police, Weiss always denied having worked for Russia. I 270 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,959 Speaker 1: also spent months trying to contact a Gisto OT, and 271 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 1: then right before we were due to release this episode, 272 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: I finally managed to reach him. Juel Hello, a Gisto. 273 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: He is Sam Jones Vonda Financial Times. Ah, Hello, Do 274 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: to you mind if we speak in English? Is because 275 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: speaker is illege? But I beg your bardin if my 276 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: English is. 277 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 6: Not the best. 278 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: Ot is half Italian and Italian, he tells me. Is 279 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: his mother tongue German, second English. 280 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 6: Third. 281 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 1: He spent his life working for Austrian police and intelligence 282 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: in various locations around Europe. Most of what he did 283 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: is secret, but we do know that Ot worked on 284 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 1: uncovering the fascist letter bomber Franz Fuchs in the nineteen nineties. 285 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: Ot is proud of his career and he's deeply frustrated 286 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: by the investigations against him. 287 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,360 Speaker 6: It's I guess he is the big spy for Russia. 288 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 1: He denies this. 289 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 6: I'm working for Russia's But where's the evidence. There's no alidence. 290 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: What says that his lawyers have demanded four times to 291 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: see the evidence that backed up Peter's claim he was 292 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 1: working for the Russians, the one that led to Peter 293 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: suspending him in twenty seventeen before the raid even took place, 294 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: but it hasn't been provided. And Ot thinks that Peter 295 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: has just made it up. Do you have got any 296 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 1: from me? Mm hmm from so? Do you think that 297 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: he was lying? He made it up. 298 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 7: Exactly because he cannot He cannot say the truth, because 299 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 7: he cannot say, okay, this was only bullshit, this was 300 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 7: only a storytelling by me. 301 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: He says. It's the same with the accusation that he 302 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,159 Speaker 1: is the author of the thirty nine page dossier, the 303 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: one that led to the raid. 304 00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 6: I didn't write him. There's no evidence. The only writing story. 305 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: Ott says. This whole thing isn't about Russia. He says 306 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: the BVT themselves, in cahoots with members of the Austrian 307 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: political establishment, set the whole thing up. The raid was 308 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 1: basically their plan all along, and that they did it 309 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: in order to discredit Austria's far right by making it 310 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: look like they'd caused this mess only months after they'd 311 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: been given control of Austria's security services for the first time. 312 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: In Ott's version of events, Austria was suspended from the 313 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 1: Clube de Burn not because of the raid, but because 314 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 1: Peter Griddling secretly asked for the suspension, specifically to create 315 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: bad press about Austria. So you mean you think that 316 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: Peter asked the Clube de Bern to suspend the belief 317 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 1: of tea. 318 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 8: Exactly even reaped the witnesses. Let's get did It's normally 319 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 8: called m HM like high trees and exactly. 320 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: I should note here that we haven't seen any evidence 321 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: to support this claim. And Peter Gridling, he denies ever 322 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: having done anything like this. What admits that he and 323 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: Martin Wess they were close and they did regularly discuss 324 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 1: what they saw as big problems at the BVT because 325 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: they thought it was in the pocket of the Austrian 326 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 1: political establishment. He thinks he and Vice were framed as 327 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: the provocateurs responsible for the raid precisely because they'd complained 328 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,120 Speaker 1: about corrupt activities at the BVT in the past. 329 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 6: Ahadi are saying, we are corrupt. Oh, very beautiful. 330 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: Now all of this is getting a little bit smoke 331 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 1: and mirrors. The thing is, there's a reason why the 332 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: cloud of suspicion isn't so easily dispersed from around a 333 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: Gisto despite his protests. It's because he and Martin Wece 334 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: they both knew they both worked for someone else. 335 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 6: My memory, he was a very very smart, tough, smart 336 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 6: young good truths. 337 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 1: The story that is out there that's different to yours 338 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: is that actually this guy yan Marcelek is behind this, 339 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: and that he was using you and Martin Weiss to 340 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: try and manipulate the ministry and gain control of the 341 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: beef Ati. 342 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 6: This is this is this is not this is not 343 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 6: true because I think. 344 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 7: Nothing about about basic because we haven't haven't been used 345 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 7: for it for and something. 346 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:49,880 Speaker 6: No, it's it's not true. 347 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: What admits that he knew jan Marcelek, but in his 348 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: telling he only ever really did a little bit of 349 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 1: freelancing for him. What says the reason he knew marcelect 350 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: was because Martin Weiss, who was close to had gone 351 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: to work for Marceilek. In fact, Wesce even had an 352 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 1: office of his own in prince Ygentenstrasser, and one day 353 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 1: Wesce asked Ott to help create a wire tap proof 354 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: room there. What did Martin tell you about Marcelect? Did 355 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: he ever talk about who this guy was? 356 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 7: It's only only yeah, he's a is he ill and 357 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 7: smartsh a lot. 358 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: When you found out or heard, I guess read in 359 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: the newspapers that Marcelect had disappeared and wire Card had 360 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: gone bankrupt, did you do anything? What was your reaction? 361 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 7: This was it was on this day in these days, 362 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 7: I think it was a two twenty. Yeah, when they 363 00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 7: came out, it was even surprised. 364 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: Did you tell anyone that you'd been to his house 365 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: and had this? You know, he wanted a secret room. No, 366 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:11,880 Speaker 1: Marcelect had just become one of the most wanted men 367 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: in Europe, suspected of being a Russian spy. It seems 368 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: strange to me that wouldn't mention to anyone that he 369 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 1: knew Marcelect. But then again, this is what he told 370 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: me when I asked him who he thought Jan Marcelekt 371 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: really was. Do you think he's a Russian spy or 372 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: do you think he has other interests? 373 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 6: I don't think so, at least in Russia spy, I 374 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 6: don't think. 375 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 1: So Ot rejects all the allegations about his role in 376 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: the BVT affair and says he definitely wasn't a Russian agent, 377 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: but he actually sympathizes with the objective of the plot. 378 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: He says he wishes the Freedom Party had kicked out 379 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: Griddling and completely reformed the BVT, and that Russia's threat 380 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: to Europe is overblown. On the contrary, he thinks that 381 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,360 Speaker 1: there are powerful hawks in the West, he calls them eagles, 382 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 1: trying to stoke tensions with Moscow by confecting all of 383 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,959 Speaker 1: these scandals. Just so, you were a counterintelligence officer at 384 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: the BFLT for a long time in your career. What 385 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 1: do you think is Russia a threat to Austria? 386 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 6: No, I think there are some. 387 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 7: Let's say some ees here in the in the Western 388 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 7: part and even in Austria and in the in the 389 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 7: European Union. 390 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 6: I think it really he won't they have the Third 391 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 6: World War. 392 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 9: I'm so happy that there was born in sixty two 393 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 9: and that he drew up very peaceful. Even my kids 394 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 9: have grown up very peaceful and they won't even but 395 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 9: my grinsons became drew up before the war, and now 396 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 9: we have more than eighty years that they don't. There's 397 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 9: no reason that the Russia, the European Union, or a 398 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 9: deck Austria, what. 399 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: Is not alone in this view of Russia in Austria 400 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: or elsewhere in Central Europe. I hear it a lot, 401 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: of course, like all pieces of good what aboutism, there's 402 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,199 Speaker 1: truth in it. The last thirty years have involved a 403 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: lot of big wars started by hawkish politicians in the West. 404 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: But Russia is no paragon of peace. And you might 405 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: feel rather differently about Putin's threat to Europe if you 406 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: were sat in Tallinn or Vilnius or Riga, European capitals 407 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: that Russia very much believes belong within its sphere of control. 408 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: The idea that Russia is a good neighbor, it's just 409 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: not remotely true. Ott was charged with breaching state secrecy 410 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 1: in November twenty twenty four. The trial I'll open this March, 411 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: and three days later he was acquitted. Prosecutors are considering 412 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: further charges. There's a reason why espionage trials are so rare, 413 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: because trying to prove someone as a spy is not 414 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,959 Speaker 1: like proving any other crime. Everything can hinge on almost 415 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: impossible to answer questions of motive and awareness. I can't 416 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: tell you what really did or didn't know about Yan 417 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,120 Speaker 1: Marcelet's involvement in the BBT affair, but I can tell 418 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: you that there is more evidence to weigh in the 419 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: case than just his perspective versus Peter Gridlings. Peter, in 420 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: any case, isn't under investigation, and he retired at twenty twenty. 421 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: Over the last five years, our Gaia Farmer's investigators have 422 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: been slowly amassing a trove of evidence, pulling in more 423 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: and more witnesses, gaining access to more and more messages 424 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: from suspects phones on the trail of what the BVT 425 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: raid was all about, and on the trail of Yan Marcelow. 426 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: And I just so happened to know somebody who has 427 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: access to a lot of that evidence, Stephie Crisper. 428 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 5: The evidence that led to the raid was incredibly weak 429 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 5: and should have never have led to this raid to happen, 430 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 5: and we are still suffering from this raid. 431 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: You might remember Stephie from one of our earlier episodes. 432 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: She's the Austrian MP and a member of the two 433 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: special parliamentary committees that were set up to get to 434 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: the bottom of what happened. Not only did Steffie have 435 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: access to the classified information regarding the BVT affair, she 436 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: also had access to the classified information surrounding Austria's far 437 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: right Freedom Party their links to Russia. 438 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 5: If you have so many people being somewhare critical of 439 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 5: the institution to work in, it's dangerous because it makes 440 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 5: them also be receptible for corruption or working for other 441 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 5: people's interests. And that's what we realize that it's really happened, 442 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 5: because we know nowadays that Marcelek was able to find 443 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 5: people in this institution BFO TEE that are open for 444 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 5: working with him so against interests of Austria. 445 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: Stephie was in a position to see the three sides 446 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: of this plot. She knew that investigators believed Ott had 447 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: manufactured the first dossier despite his denials. Weiss had then 448 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: provided Sworn's secret testimony to substantiate it and trigger the raid, 449 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: and Marcelek well. Steffie also found out that Marcelek had 450 00:30:54,360 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: been playing the role of conductor Maestro. Stephie had gave 451 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: and access to messages exchanged between senior members of the 452 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,959 Speaker 1: Freedom Party and people at the top of the Austrian 453 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: Russian Friendship Society, among them Jan Marcelek. In these messages, 454 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: Yan presented himself as a BVT insider who was offering 455 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: solutions on how the Freedom Party might try and reform 456 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: Austria's security apparatus, which he agreed was operating as a 457 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: deep state against the interests of far right politicians. Carefully 458 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: and slowly, Yan floated the idea of creating a new 459 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: intelligence agency to replace the corrupt BVT. Some in the 460 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: Freedom Party were so interested in this idea that they 461 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: even began drawing up policy papers on how to achieve it. 462 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: The plan was that this new agency it would be 463 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: run by reliable people, and this Yan he knew exactly 464 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: who the right people might be. After seeing the evidence, 465 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: Stephi is sure that none of this happened by chance, 466 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: and that Marceilek was undoubtedly an advancing a plan. The 467 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: raid was just the first step. 468 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 5: I think that he could use any allegations to push 469 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 5: for something like a raid to happen, for him to 470 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 5: be able to say now we formed the whole thing, 471 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 5: and for him to put then their people there are 472 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 5: not objectively the best and the most competent, but. 473 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: The people controlled by the FP, the f as in 474 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: the Freedom Party of Austria. And then I guess that 475 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: makes sense for Martial k because those people are also 476 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: his people. 477 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 6: In this instance, exactly. 478 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: What would that have meant for Austria? Do you think 479 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: to have an intelligence agency that was basically controlled by 480 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: FB appointees or people close to them. 481 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 5: It would have been logically terrible because you would have 482 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 5: an intelligence service that does not workick in a competent 483 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 5: way for the interests of the security of people living 484 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 5: in Austria, but for foreign interests. Because from the perspective 485 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 5: of Putin, what would be great to have in Europe 486 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 5: a country as a door to infiltrate whole Europe? And 487 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 5: there install your people, and the best would be to 488 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 5: have them in ministries, even better in the security area, 489 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 5: in the intelligence service. And this is what I think 490 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 5: started to happen via Marsalk having his people in the 491 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 5: BFOT who were perhaps only frustrated, perhaps only useful idiots, 492 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 5: to be a source for informations and perhaps on the 493 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 5: long run also for changing the world work and the 494 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 5: focus of work in the intelligence service in the interest 495 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 5: of Russia, away from Russia to only other issues. 496 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: Put In doesn't bother. But it's quite scary how close 497 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: that came to maybe being a reality. 498 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:15,839 Speaker 6: It is. 499 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 1: There's a way you can look at all of this 500 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,760 Speaker 1: and think, as plots go, this all seems pretty fragile. 501 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 1: A lot of people needed to believe the right thing 502 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: at the right moment for this plan to work. When 503 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 1: we think of spyplots in movies, they're always so engineered, 504 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 1: and sure, intelligence often does work like that. But what 505 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,320 Speaker 1: Russia is also very good at is influence operations, which 506 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: by their nature are more exploratory, harder to grasp. And 507 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: that's what we have here. I think Marcelek operating for 508 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 1: himself and for the Russians as a highly successful agent 509 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: of influence. Back in the Cold War, Russian intelligence experts 510 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: talked about this idea of something called reflexive control. It's 511 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: a Russian military idea as much as it is a 512 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: spying one, the premise of which is to avoid forcing 513 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 1: someone to do something, don't hold a gun to their head. 514 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: The optimum solution is for they themselves to choose to 515 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 1: do it, because you have so shaped their reality that 516 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 1: they don't even realize that the free will they're exercising 517 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 1: is what you want to Stoking paranoia in the Freedom 518 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: Party has given Russia a huge leverage to interfere in 519 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: Austrian politics, a trick they have repeated elsewhere in Europe too. 520 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,800 Speaker 1: And maybe the lesson from this part of the story 521 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: is that I think marceilllek is pretty good at doing 522 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: this kind of thing. Peter Gridling, he seems to feel 523 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 1: the same. Have you ever in your career come across 524 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 1: an agent like Jan Marshal k Urse? Something is does 525 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 1: he compare to anything you've seen before? 526 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 4: Or from my experience, I have no comparison. We will 527 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 4: see what evidence is produced. But if you want to 528 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:19,400 Speaker 4: guess about how worse would an intelligence asset like Marcell 529 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:23,280 Speaker 4: G be, then you would say, well, were very. 530 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 6: Worthy, very very valuable. 531 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:26,399 Speaker 4: As a. 532 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: But it turns out that marcele X's skills extended way 533 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 1: beyond operations of influence, as Austrian investigators soon began to 534 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 1: discover for themselves because as they unraveled who all the 535 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 1: people connected to Marcelec were, they turned up more and 536 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: more leads beyond Austria. Marcell XX very effective Vienna Network. Well, 537 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,839 Speaker 1: it wasn't the only group of agents he ran. There 538 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 1: was at least one more. They carried out multiple covert 539 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: operations and they were based in the UK. Coming up 540 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: on Hot Money. Marthleck really was like a sort of 541 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: ghost storm to this trial. 542 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 6: He was clearly the organizing mind and he was there, 543 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 6: you know, in black and white in telegram messages. 544 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,440 Speaker 10: First of all, I thought someone might have been murdered, 545 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,760 Speaker 10: but I did think, well, there's no ambulances or anything, 546 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,360 Speaker 10: and there's no police cars, and then I saw these 547 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 10: men or women or black with bile. 548 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:41,359 Speaker 4: Clark was on. 549 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: Hot Money is a production of The Financial Times and 550 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. It was written and reported by me Sam Jones. 551 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: The senior producer and co writer is Peggy Sutton. Our 552 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 1: producer is Izzy Carter. Our research is Marine Saint. Our 553 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: show is edited by Karen Shakergie fact checking by Kira Levine, 554 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 1: Sound design and mastering by Jake Gorsky and Marcelo de Olivia, 555 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 1: with additional sound design by Izzy Carter. The original music 556 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,839 Speaker 1: from Matthias Bossi and John Evans of Stellwagen Symphonet. Our 557 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 1: show art is by Sean Carney, our executive producers are 558 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: Cheryl Brumley, Amy Gains McQuaid and Matthew Garahan. Additional editing 559 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 1: by Paul Murphy. Special thanks to Ruler Calaffe, Dan McCrumb, 560 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:41,800 Speaker 1: Laura Clark, Alistair Mackie, Manuela Saragosa, Nigel Hanson, Vicky Merrick, 561 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, Morgan Ratner, Jake Flanagan, Jacob Goldstein, Sarah Nix 562 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:50,760 Speaker 1: and Greta Cohne. I'm Sam Jones