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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace the Horror nine to one

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Speaker 1: one audio uh the train stabbing victim Irena reveals her

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Speaker 1: final desperate moments and what is described by witnesses as

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Speaker 1: a bloody and hopeless scene. Can anybody say death penalty?

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Speaker 1: I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to

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Speaker 1: thank you.

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Speaker 2: For being with us one shire a Mining.

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Speaker 1: Why did Irena have to die stabbed dead on public transportation?

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Speaker 3: You said, a mail down for no re event at

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Speaker 3: any minute, the community still reeling.

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Speaker 1: Now, what makes this murder different from other murders. I'm

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Speaker 1: about to play you that newly released to audio, and

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Speaker 1: I've got to warn you up front, it's very, very disturbing.

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Speaker 1: Straight out to veteran trial lawyer who represents a lot

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Speaker 1: of high profile clients. Randy Kessler, h Emory Law School professor,

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Speaker 1: former chair ABA Family Law Section, author of Divorce, Protect Yourself,

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Speaker 1: Your Kids, in your Future. Kessler, this case is a

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Speaker 1: death penalty case because the aggravating circumstance is the murder,

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Speaker 1: according to the state, occurred on mass transit in a nutshell. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you're not delivering a speech the ABA. Why is that

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Speaker 1: an aggravating circumstance, Randy Kessler.

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Speaker 4: That's all they need to surpass the threshold. And in

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Speaker 4: the law they're allowed to ask for the death penalty

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Speaker 4: because it's on public transportation. But the sympathetic factor. Nobody

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Speaker 4: wants this guy around. They're going to get a good

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Speaker 4: shot at the death penalty. All they needed was the

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Speaker 4: avenue to get in. They've got it because it's public

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Speaker 4: transportation that authorizes the death penalty.

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Speaker 1: Ass Okay, you do know what you just did right

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Speaker 1: put Kessler up. That is not working. I said, why

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Speaker 1: is it a death penalty because it's on mass transit?

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Speaker 1: And you say, like three times, it's death penalty because

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Speaker 1: it's on mass transit. That's not an answer. You just

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Speaker 1: regurgitated my question. But you did it beautifully. And now

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Speaker 1: I see why you win so many cases and snow

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Speaker 1: appellate court judges. I hope they're not watching right now

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Speaker 1: for your sake. Mass transit killings are dp death penalty

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Speaker 1: because much like a titular murder where a governor or

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Speaker 1: a senator or a president a judge is killed, it's

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Speaker 1: not just the individual, it's what they represent. That's why

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Speaker 1: that or police officer, that's why those are death penalty cases.

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Speaker 1: This is a am I actually quean ang with myself Castler.

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Speaker 1: This is a death penalty case mass transit because it's

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Speaker 1: what it represents, mass transmit government. It's going to get

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Speaker 1: on a bus or a train. If this guy's walking

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Speaker 1: free with a bloody knife, well that's the reason.

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Speaker 5: For the death penalty.

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Speaker 4: You want to find the case is where a death

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Speaker 4: penalty is really going to have a chilling effect.

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Speaker 5: Hopefully it's going to scare other people.

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Speaker 4: But the problem is Nancy, nobody's going to not kill

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Speaker 4: somebody because they might get death instead of life in prison.

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Speaker 5: To me, it should be death penalty because we jury

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Speaker 5: wants it.

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Speaker 1: Really because I don't want old Sparky, I don't want

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Speaker 1: the needle and now the firing squad. Well, long story short,

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Speaker 1: that is why this is a death penalty case. Because

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Speaker 1: Arenna was murdered on mass transit, which is an arm

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Speaker 1: of the government, and there's a renner right now, and

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Speaker 1: because calls it creates chaos when citizens are afraid to

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Speaker 1: step on a bus. Kay us. That is why this

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Speaker 1: is a death penalty case. But I want to get back.

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Speaker 1: This is something that Kessler loves and hates when a

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Speaker 1: nine to one one audio is played in front of

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Speaker 1: a jury, Why do you hate that so much? Kessler?

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Speaker 1: Because I love it and they say it.

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Speaker 4: Picture's worth a thousand words and audio is worth ten

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Speaker 4: thousand words. There's no way to unring that bill period.

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Speaker 4: Jury hears that, that equals conviction.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a listen and see if he's righter.

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Speaker 2: One police firemed.

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Speaker 3: You said a mail stoutsand the one for no reason

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Speaker 3: did a need.

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Speaker 2: Greater Medican County Fire? What is the address for the emergency?

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Speaker 5: What is this?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Kessler, you're right, this man calling nine one one

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Speaker 1: what he observed makes a grown man cry. He's crying, Kessler,

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Speaker 1: How do you think the jury's going to react to that?

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Speaker 4: He is the jury. The jury sees themselves in him.

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Speaker 4: That's the that's the whole point of the audio. You

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Speaker 4: can sympathize, empathize, whatever the word is. You see yourself

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Speaker 4: and you don't ever want to be in his position.

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Speaker 4: You don't ever want to witness that. You don't even

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Speaker 4: want to experience it, and you don't want to love

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Speaker 4: when to experience it, and you feel it, it's emotionally draining.

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Speaker 4: It hits you right here, that's that's a conviction. That

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Speaker 4: audio equals conviction.

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Speaker 1: To me, I want to hear that one. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to go to the next, the next nine on one,

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Speaker 1: but I want to hear that one more time. We're

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Speaker 1: hearing a grown man witness breaking down in tears over

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Speaker 1: what just happened to Irena. Listen, carlon nine.

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Speaker 2: One one police triremited.

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Speaker 3: He said a Mailstown was the one for no reason?

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Speaker 5: Did any.

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Speaker 2: Greater Medican County fire? What is the address of the emergency?

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Speaker 6: What is this?

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Speaker 7: We'll train stay.

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Speaker 1: With me a renowned forensic psychologist, TV radio trauma expert consultant.

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Speaker 1: It's Karen Stark at Karenstark dot com. Karen, thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us. The man is in tears. The

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Speaker 1: man is crying, and he says I was standing right

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Speaker 1: beside her. He's going to have those nightmares the rest

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Speaker 1: of his life. Without a doubt.

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Speaker 8: Nancy got trauma, terrible trauma, because just imagine I want

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Speaker 8: everyone to imagine being there on a train, innocently going

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Speaker 8: wherever you're going, and then you see somebody being slept

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Speaker 8: for no reason.

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Speaker 1: No stars. Look, Karen, Karen Stark, do you see the video?

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Speaker 1: The guy is walking around here. He is, he's about

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Speaker 1: to stand up. He's fumbling in his pocket for his knife.

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Speaker 1: Plenty of time to form intent. You see what's on

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Speaker 1: the do you see what's on the floor. He's wandering

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Speaker 1: around with a knife, dripping with blood. I guess the

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Speaker 1: nine on one callar is traumatized, Karen Stark, without a doubt.

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Speaker 8: Absolutely, Nancy.

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Speaker 5: How could you not be?

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Speaker 8: I think everyone who witnessed that would be traumatized. How

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Speaker 8: many people see something like that instantly riding on a train?

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Speaker 1: Hopefully none. Guys, we have just obtained the newly released

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Speaker 1: nine to one one calls.

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Speaker 9: Listen right now on the ground with a lot of blood,

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Speaker 9: and everybody's singing that you got And I don't know

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Speaker 9: if anybody.

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Speaker 10: People are freaking out.

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Speaker 7: I want to do some more information.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she's on the train.

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Speaker 1: She's on the train.

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Speaker 9: She's on the ground right now. There's people around her

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Speaker 9: right now. I think they're holding pressure. On this site.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of luck joining us doctor Thomas Coin,

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Speaker 1: chief Medical Examiner District to Medical Examiner's Office, State of Florida,

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Speaker 1: and never like a business there pathologists to psychologists and neuropathologists.

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Speaker 1: It goes on and on, doctor Coin, thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us. What what what are they trying? Medic

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Speaker 1: is trying to explain what's happening? What's happening?

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Speaker 10: Sure?

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Speaker 11: So, I mean from watching the horrible video, you can

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Speaker 11: see that the stab woom was likely to the next

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Speaker 11: just around the collarbone area, and in that area you have.

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Speaker 10: Several major arteries. If the blade is long enough, you could.

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Speaker 11: Certainly have cut the aorta or some of the branches

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Speaker 11: of or including the carotid artery. Those vessels carry blood

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Speaker 11: about a half a leader to three quarters of a

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Speaker 11: leader per minute, so if you can imagine, if that

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Speaker 11: vesseyl is cut, you can bleed out probably half of

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Speaker 11: your total blood volume in less than about a two

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Speaker 11: minute period. So what they're trying to do is put

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Speaker 11: pressure on that area, or at least the hopes they're

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Speaker 11: trying to put pressure on that area to stop the bleeding.

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Speaker 11: But very hard to put pressure on that area because

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Speaker 11: it's your neck the collarbones in the way, so it's

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Speaker 11: hard to actually stop the blood from splurting out. It's

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Speaker 11: a most times these wounds are fatal. It's almost impossible

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Speaker 11: to get this person to the hospital in time.

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Speaker 1: You said, you can lose half your blood in less

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Speaker 1: than two minutes.

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Speaker 11: Yes, because blood flow here. These vessels carry blood at

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Speaker 11: high volume and fast rate, and so when you cut

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Speaker 11: that blood vessel, it will spurt out. Every time the

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Speaker 11: heart beats, blood will spurret out. And yes, you could

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Speaker 11: lose you know, a couple of liters of blolood within

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Speaker 11: a couple of minute.

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Speaker 10: Windows small, a very small window of time.

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Speaker 1: Guys, I want to hear the tone that the medic

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Speaker 1: has in the nine to one one call. Listen to

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Speaker 1: the medic.

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Speaker 9: There're just a lady right now on the ground with

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Speaker 9: a lot of blood, and everybody's screaming that she got stabbed.

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Speaker 9: And I don't know if anybody's called that one.

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Speaker 10: People are just freaking out.

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Speaker 7: I want to do some more information.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she's on the train.

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Speaker 9: She's on the train, she's on the ground right now.

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Speaker 9: There's people around her right now. I think they're holding

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Speaker 9: pressure on this website. There's a lot of blood.

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Speaker 1: In Doctor Thomas Coin, Uh, you're our only medical doctor today.

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Speaker 1: I hear resignation. I hear resignation. The medic's not going hurry, hurry, Harry,

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Speaker 1: get here for the hurry hurry, it's like she's on

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Speaker 1: the ground, she's she's a lot of blood. They know,

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Speaker 1: don't they, Doctor Coin Have you ever felt that when

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Speaker 1: you're trying your best to save a patient and you

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Speaker 1: know there's just nothing you can do, but you're trying anyway.

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Speaker 11: During my earlier early years of training, yeah, and especially

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Speaker 11: in the trauma centers of the hospital where you have

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Speaker 11: you know the injury is most likely fatal, but you're

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Speaker 11: doing everything you can just to keep that patient alive.

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Speaker 11: And when you have an injury like this and you've

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Speaker 11: lost so much blood, it's almost impossible to.

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Speaker 10: Get in there and repair it in time to save

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Speaker 10: the patient. It's just it's a horrible experience.

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Speaker 1: I know that all of the newly released nine on

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Speaker 1: one audio is upsetting, but to me, this one with

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Speaker 1: the medic made me the most upset, because you know,

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Speaker 1: when you're in a crisis situation, a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: including me, just power through it and it's only after

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Speaker 1: it's over that you think, oh, my stars, I nearly X,

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Speaker 1: or she nearly X was hit by car or fell

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Speaker 1: off the tree, or it's after it's over that you

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Speaker 1: have a sigh of relief. But here I hear the

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Speaker 1: resignation in the medic's voice.

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Speaker 9: Listen, lady right now on the ground with a lot

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Speaker 9: of blood, and everybody's bringing that she got stabbed. And

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Speaker 9: I don't know if anybody called that on one.

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Speaker 10: People are just freaking out. I want to information.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she's on the train.

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Speaker 9: She's on the train, she's on the ground right now.

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Speaker 9: There's people around her right now. I think they're holding

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Speaker 9: pressure on this.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of.

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Speaker 1: Blood, Karen start. That was the most upsetting part of

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Speaker 1: all the nine one one. We're about to play.

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Speaker 8: Well because you hear it in her voice when she sighs, Nancy.

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Speaker 8: But I also want to point out and watching that

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Speaker 8: video that Dwayne is suffering. It's not that he stabs

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Speaker 8: her and she doesn't know what's going on. You can

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Speaker 8: very clearly see the horror on her face, the pain

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Speaker 8: and the fact that she's suffering. Hold in her mouth

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Speaker 8: before she bawls down and ultimately done.

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Speaker 1: You're right, Karen, she's looking down. She's looking down. She

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Speaker 1: looked down at her stab You're right, Karen, she's just oh,

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Speaker 1: she's dying right in front of us. Here's more of.

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Speaker 9: The nine on one calls the person who a little no,

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Speaker 9: I did not. We were on a different train park

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Speaker 9: down the road line and this is the very cloud

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Speaker 9: train car.

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Speaker 10: I think the person in the I believe.

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Speaker 2: Confident that she got it.

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Speaker 12: I'm not.

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Speaker 9: There's a lot of people around her that they're all

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Speaker 9: saying the pupils are blown out and.

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Speaker 1: There's no back to Dodger Thomas Coin two things. What

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Speaker 1: does that mean, stabbed in the carotid and the pupils

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Speaker 1: are blown out. Whoever this is seems to have medical training.

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Speaker 1: What does that mean?

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Speaker 7: Yeah?

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Speaker 11: Sure, So the carotid artery is that is the main

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Speaker 11: artery that that supplies blood to our brain. So it

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Speaker 11: travels within our neck along the lateral sides of our neck.

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Speaker 11: It's where like you would feel your pulse if you

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Speaker 11: put your fingers on your neck. That that's the carotid artery.

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Speaker 5: Uh.

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Speaker 11: And it's one of the arteries that this certainly could

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Speaker 11: have cut in that area of her neck and it

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Speaker 11: will pump a high volume of blood out of the

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Speaker 11: body if cut. The pupils being blown just likely indicates

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Speaker 11: that she's lost normal neurologic function. I mean, as you

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Speaker 11: can imagine, if those arteries are cut, the blood supply

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Speaker 11: to her brain has been severed, and so within probably

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Speaker 11: less than a minute's time, her brain's not ating the

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Speaker 11: oxygen or blood flow it needs, and therefore, you know,

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Speaker 11: her brain's not being responsive. So our pupils are blown.

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Speaker 11: Her her cranial nerves and her brain stem are not

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Speaker 11: working like they should, and those just simply really speak

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Speaker 11: to her her dire situation.

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Speaker 1: Randy Kessler, a veteran trial lawyer out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Randy,

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Speaker 1: I know you're looking at the video right now. You

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Speaker 1: do see the suspect changing clothes, getting rid of his

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Speaker 1: bloody clothes. Isn't it true, Kessler, that the jury can

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Speaker 1: consider behavior before, during, and after the crime to determine guilt.

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Speaker 1: The guys getting rid of his bloody clothes before he

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Speaker 1: steps off the train, that indicates he knows there'll be

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Speaker 1: a problem if it goes out on that platform covered

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Speaker 1: in blood.

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Speaker 4: Right, and personally, this probably goes more to the sentencing right.

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Speaker 4: Normal cases, at flight, if you're leaving a scene, you're

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Speaker 4: trying to get away. You're trying to escape, you're trying

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Speaker 4: to hide. That shows you did something wrong. You're trying

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Speaker 4: to get away. In this case, we know he didn't.

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Speaker 1: We've got him generates E double L n oh. I

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Speaker 1: spelled it out for you. That can be used as evidence.

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Speaker 5: Of guilt, of course, But what I'm telling.

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Speaker 1: You, generations it was actually a jury charge that the

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Speaker 1: generally give the jury. Somehow that defense bar got rid

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Speaker 1: of that, but the jury can consider that is evidence

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Speaker 1: of guilt. We're trying to get his bloody shirt. That's

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Speaker 1: not sentencing.

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Speaker 4: No, but you don't. You're right, Nancy, but you don't

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Speaker 4: leave with that. You don't leave with Look, he's covering

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Speaker 4: it up.

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Speaker 5: When you got a.

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Speaker 4: Video of him actually stabbing her, you don't need to

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Speaker 4: start with, Hey, he was trying to cover it up.

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Speaker 5: You got him dead to rights on the conviction.

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Speaker 4: That's going to go further to wasn't mentally insane, He

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Speaker 4: knew that what he did was wrong. Takes away the

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Speaker 4: insanity defense, takes away any excuse for why he did

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Speaker 4: this other than.

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Speaker 1: You drinking what I mean, what you drinking smoking? I

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Speaker 1: was gonna leave with guilty conscience. I leave with that

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Speaker 1: video and the nine one one calls. That's the state's

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Speaker 1: strongest evidence. I would go with the video that I'm

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Speaker 1: on calls, and then the witnesses, every single person sitting

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Speaker 1: in that tren car, even though they didn't help, which

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Speaker 1: they're going to get cross examined on. Yes, that's then

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Speaker 1: I bring on doctor Thomas Coin, and then I would

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Speaker 1: bring on Ron Bateman, and then I would bring on

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Speaker 1: Andy Kahn, and then I would bring on Susan Hendrick,

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Speaker 1: just like that. But evidence of guilty conscience that's the

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Speaker 1: last thing I bring on. But you darn right, I'll

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Speaker 1: bring it on.

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Speaker 4: Sure it is piling on, and it's icing on the cake.

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Speaker 4: It's extra, But really you don't need it. That's why

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Speaker 4: I think it goes more towards sentencing, because is there

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Speaker 4: a question that there's any reason why this guy should

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Speaker 4: be given any breaks. No, he knew what he did

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Speaker 4: was wrong. That's what that does for me. It doesn't help.

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Speaker 4: You don't need it for the conviction. I mean, sooner

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Speaker 4: or later it's gonna be over kill. You got him

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Speaker 4: dead's rights, he's guilty of the crime. Now what do

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Speaker 4: we do about it?

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Speaker 2: To death?

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Speaker 1: Because he knew he can't help himself. I can't, Kessler.

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Speaker 1: I love it when defense attorney starts saying it's overkill.

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Speaker 1: Stop you're piling on isn't it true? The state has

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Speaker 1: one swing at the ball. If there's an eng not guilty,

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Speaker 1: your technical legal phrase, screwed. You have one chance. Why

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Speaker 1: not put on all your evidence. When a defensive attorney

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Speaker 1: starts squealing and whining, overkill, piling on, that's when I

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Speaker 1: really dig in.

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Speaker 4: You can use it, you can add it. But again,

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Speaker 4: it's not my emphasis. The emphasis is on the act,

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Speaker 4: the actual crime. Sometimes you don't have the photographic or

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Speaker 4: the videographic evidence of the killing and the murder of

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Speaker 4: the crime, so that's more important. In this case, I'm

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Speaker 4: just saying it's much less important than actually what happened.

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Speaker 5: What happened is terrible, it's on video. He's done, he's convicted.

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Speaker 5: That is. It is overkill. It is extra sure you

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Speaker 5: use it, Nancy, throw it in there.

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Speaker 4: But I would say to the jury, we're gonna show

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Speaker 4: you this, but you don't really even need it because

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Speaker 4: you've already got enough to convict him.

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Speaker 5: But just in case there was any.

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Speaker 1: Doubt, you're really not helping the defense right now. You

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Speaker 1: know that, right You're really not a helper for the defense.

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Speaker 5: I'm just trying to explain it for the audience.

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Speaker 1: I've got something for you, Kessler. All right, you ready,

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Speaker 1: I don't know more nine to one one. Let's take

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Speaker 1: a listen to the newly released audio man I play.

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Speaker 7: The girl might be there, man guy, there's no and

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Speaker 7: the guy over here on the round, Yeah, he's on

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Speaker 7: all the platform either he's a black male. You have

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Speaker 7: a dreadlog if you got a hand wrapped up in

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Speaker 7: a red ejected a black teacher because the.

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Speaker 1: Player was hanging over team not anymore, he doesn't. Let's

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Speaker 1: see that video of him changing clothes. Crime stories with me.

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Speaker 1: That's great to Susan Henry's joining US investigative journalist, author

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Speaker 1: of Down the Hill, My descend into the double murder

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Speaker 1: in Delphi. Susan, the nine woman caller another one of them.

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Speaker 1: You know a lot of the people on the train,

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Speaker 1: which totally is totally reprehensible. They don't even try to

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Speaker 1: help her. They start videoing her dying. What a bunch

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Speaker 1: of googles. However, yeah, go on a video that I

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Speaker 1: guess he posted it. Long story short, Several people did

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Speaker 1: call nine one one, and this last call we played

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Speaker 1: describes the defendant. He was standing on the ramp. Now

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Speaker 1: he's on another platform. Dreadlocks. He's got his hand wrapped

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Speaker 1: in a red jacket because he cut his hand, a

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Speaker 1: black T shirt. He's got a Blue Jays, black T shirt,

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Speaker 1: hand wrapped up, dreads. We've got him on video changing

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Speaker 1: clothes and there he goes. Guys, this is newly released video,

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Speaker 1: and there he goes, walking off like nothing happened. Says

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Speaker 1: in Hendrix. What's happening in the video right here that

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Speaker 1: we're showing.

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Speaker 13: We're seeing the police move in on this guy and

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Speaker 13: make the arrest.

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Speaker 5: Nancy.

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Speaker 13: It's so disturbing. I watched that entire video this morning.

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Speaker 13: She was stepped quickly three times in the neck, and

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Speaker 13: you mentioned it earlier. That look of horror she's looking down,

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Speaker 13: probably is realizing what is happening to her. She's dying

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Speaker 13: before very eyes. What you're looking at now is the

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Speaker 13: police move in and that last nine one one call, Nancy.

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Speaker 13: You hear him say no police presence?

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Speaker 1: Where is everyone?

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Speaker 13: He's panicked too, and I believe she falls over and

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Speaker 13: dies before her very eyes on that video.

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Speaker 1: That is huge.

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Speaker 13: That of course is what the play in pork. But

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Speaker 13: you're looking at the arrest the video we just saw.

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Speaker 7: I think I'm here man, I pay. The girl might

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Speaker 7: be there man, the pied person, the guy over there's

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Speaker 7: no point represent and the guy that he's just standing

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Speaker 7: over here on the round. Yeah, he's on the other platform.

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Speaker 7: He's a black male dread loss. He got his hand

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Speaker 7: wrapped up in a red jacket, a black tea shirt

387
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Speaker 7: because the players like hanging off attaining. He got dread logs.

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Speaker 7: He got on blue jams, the black tea shirt and

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Speaker 7: the hands wrapped up. He got laudera heman anywhere or no.

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Speaker 7: He got a black teacher on the hoodies rapper entertaining.

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Speaker 9: Okay, see lady right now on the ground and a

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Speaker 9: lot of the vest and everybody breaking that he got stuff.

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Speaker 11: That's when he got up and he subsequently stabbed her

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Speaker 11: three times.

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Speaker 2: He's on the ground right now.

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Speaker 9: There's people around there and the pressure off.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of luck.

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Speaker 1: We just endured the Charlie Kirk murder. And whether you

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Speaker 1: agree with him or disagree with him, whether you like

400
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Speaker 1: him or hate him, it doesn't matter. He was murdered.

401
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Speaker 1: Do you recall the suspect jumped down off the roof

402
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Speaker 1: and took off and tried to blend in and he

403
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Speaker 1: did blend him with all the other students his age.

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Speaker 1: Same thing here. I want you to take a look

405
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Speaker 1: as we're playing that nine to one one call one

406
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Speaker 1: of them at the defendant just mosying off. Okay, listen,

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Speaker 1: I think I'm here man, I think the girl might

408
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Speaker 1: be there.

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Speaker 7: Man, the piot person, the guy over there's no point, Represident,

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Speaker 7: and the guy that he is standing over here on

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Speaker 7: the round. Yeah, he was on the other platform either.

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Speaker 7: He's a black male dread loss. He got his hand

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Speaker 7: wrapped up in a red jacket, a black teacher because

414
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Speaker 7: the players.

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Speaker 3: Like hanging off the team.

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Speaker 7: He got dread lovee. He got on a blue dreams,

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Speaker 7: the black teacher and the tams wrapped up. He got

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Speaker 7: laudary woman anywhere or is he no? He got a

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Speaker 7: boy feature home.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and what do I want you to look at.

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Speaker 1: Let's see the video please of him getting off the

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Speaker 1: train and just calmly walking away, much as Tyler Robinson did.

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Speaker 1: Police are swarming the area. He's just like walking away.

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Speaker 1: Don't look at me. I'm normal. I'm not running from

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Speaker 1: the scene. I'm totally chill. Check it out, just wandering

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Speaker 1: along until the nine one one calls that described what

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Speaker 1: he was wearing nail him. He's just blending in, Kessler.

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Speaker 1: He does not want to bring attention to himself by running.

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Speaker 1: His hand is dripping with blood. Is he in a

430
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Speaker 1: hurry to get to the dock in a box? No,

431
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Speaker 1: because he doesn't want police to see him running.

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Speaker 4: Right, And the two explanations, right, One is he's so

433
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Speaker 4: clever that he's just trying to.

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Speaker 5: Blend in and that's how clever he is.

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Speaker 4: Or he's got some mental issues and he's mentally insane

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Speaker 4: and he doesn't even realize that what he did was wrong.

437
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 4: And certainly in this case, that's got a good good

438
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 4: chance of success.

439
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 5: Right, This guy is absolutely off the deep end.

440
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 4: You see somebody like that, you immediately jump to why

441
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 4: would you do something like that? You've got to have

442
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 4: something wrong with you. It's got to go right to

443
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 4: a metal insanity defense. That's the only benefit. Otherwise you're

444
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 4: thinking this a normal guy who planned that kind of murder,

445
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 4: plan to just walk casually. He didn't plan this. He

446
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 4: didn't plan to get out of trouble. He just didn't

447
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 4: know where he was. You heard later, Right, he's got

448
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 4: voices going on in his head. He's got some mental issues.

449
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 4: That's why he was walking around as if he did

450
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 4: nothing because he mentally.

451
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's got fourteen arrest and just got out of

452
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: jail in January and immediately did this. You know what,

453
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: everybody there he is, there's Kessler. There is the truth.

454
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: Kessler coming up with what some would say is a

455
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,959
Speaker 1: brilliant argument that he walked up because he didn't know

456
00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: he did anything wrong. You use what you got that

457
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: he didn't plan the incident, Randy Kessler. Under the law,

458
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,919
Speaker 1: isn't it true that intent can be formed in the

459
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: blink of an eye and a twinkling of a moment,

460
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: As my old judge, juge Luthor Alberson would say, isn't

461
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: that true? Premeditation does not require a long drawn out plan,

462
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 1: such as murdering someone by poisoning them over weeks and months.

463
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 1: Isn't that true?

464
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 5: It is true?

465
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 4: And you might have missed another point, which is why

466
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 4: did he have a knife on him in the first place?

467
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,959
Speaker 4: That probably helps the intent or planet, but the truth matters.

468
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 4: Why would he form intent to hurt this person? There's

469
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 4: no interaction. You're talking about passion murder where you see

470
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 4: your wife cheating with somebody else, or you see something

471
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 4: that disturbs you and throws you into your reg's his

472
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 4: wife cheating.

473
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 5: That's my point.

474
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 4: There's nothing that triggered this premeditation. You talk about forming

475
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 4: you know the intent because you see something. There was

476
00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 4: nothing that happened to make him form the intent.

477
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 1: It's you've never had a criminal that did the day

478
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 1: just because they felt like it. They had an itch

479
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: and they scratched it, And we always say why, Why? Why? Why?

480
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 1: Ask why? State doesn't have to prove motive. There doesn't

481
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 1: have to be why. All I have to know is

482
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 1: who did it? Did they have intent? And am I

483
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: in the right jurisdiction? That's what I need to know.

484
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 4: Right And the defense will come up with the why.

485
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 4: The why is because he's mentally insane, Stock hard Stock.

486
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 4: That's the only explanation that's going to get him any

487
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 4: possibility of a defense.

488
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 1: And very quickly if that's possible. Randy Kessler, you're used

489
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 1: to making long and eloquent arguments to jurys and appellate judges,

490
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 1: But we just agreed that intent can be formed in

491
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 1: literally the blink of an eye. But you're saying he's

492
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 1: clearly melely insane, This is a litmus tap a yes no.

493
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: Isn't it true that the rule of insanity, the insanity

494
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: test is the old McNaughton rule, brought over to the

495
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: US from Great Britain. And it's one simple question. Did

496
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 1: the suspect know right from wrong at the time of

497
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: the incident. I don't care what he says he heard

498
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 1: voices last week or tomorrow. Did he know what he

499
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: did at the time was wrong? Isn't that the old

500
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: McNaughton test.

501
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 5: That's the old MacNaughton test.

502
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 4: And I think it's it's very applicable here because when

503
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 4: at the time he did that, clearly, it's going to

504
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 4: be easy to argue he did not know that what

505
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 4: he was doing was wrong. He was acting under some impulse,

506
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 4: some mental diagnosis, some alternate personalities, something made him do that.

507
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 5: Clearly, did you just.

508
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: Pull that out of your.

509
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 5: Out of my way school business?

510
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 4: The bottom line is he did this, and did he

511
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 4: know right for wrong at the moment he did it?

512
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 4: And you can almost argue that anybody doing something like

513
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 4: that must not have known what they were doing. Why

514
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 4: else would they do it? There's no other reason. It's

515
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 4: not somebody he knew it's not somebody else.

516
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: Why why does it matter?

517
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 5: That's what you have.

518
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 6: Moments after allegedly stabbing Irena Brown captured on video nonchalantly

519
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 6: walking the platform of the train station, Police with weapons

520
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 6: drawn and up, surround the suspected killer, taking him to

521
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 6: the ground and taking him into custody. On the train,

522
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 6: Brown was described as wearing a hoodie. Now he's wearing

523
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 6: a black T shirt with the bloody hoodie wrapped around

524
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:37,719
Speaker 6: his hands.

525
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 1: And here he comes, just walking along, cavalierly, calmly, don't

526
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: look at me, nothing to see. Oops. I guess they

527
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: got my description. Joining me and All Star panel to

528
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: makes sense of what we know right now. Straight out

529
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: to Ron Bateman, former homicide detective, undercover narc former sheriff,

530
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: and author of a crime fiction series, Silent Blue Tears,

531
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 1: his new book coming out next week. Question to you,

532
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: Ron Bateman, when you know when you see the police

533
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: closing in, very often if ennits do not run, they

534
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: try to blend in, like Tyler Robinson did after he

535
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: allegedly shot Charlie Kirk. He came down off the top

536
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: of that roof and then he didn't run. He walked

537
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: with Grandpa's long gun and then hit it. See what

538
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: I mean. That's just an example I'm giving you that

539
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: everyone is familiar with.

540
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 12: Yeah, and it really goes to speak to his intent.

541
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 12: We talked about intent being formed in a matter of minutes.

542
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 12: And you'll see him if you've played a video back,

543
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 12: you'll see him take a knife and it's a folding

544
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,239
Speaker 12: blade that he actually folds the blade out himself. He

545
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 12: had to think about that, and then I believe when

546
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 12: he was stabbing the victim, I believe it's not a

547
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 12: lock blade. It actually closed and cut his finger and

548
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 12: that's why all the blood is dripping out on the

549
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 12: floor of the tree. But then the further show is intent.

550
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 12: He has the wherewithal. Remember we're talking about a guy

551
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 12: who's now schizophrenic and all that stuff, which is bull crap.

552
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 12: He has the wherewithal to try to conceal his identity.

553
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 12: He takes off the hoodie, he wraps his hand in

554
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 12: the hoodie, He tries to conceal his identity. He tries

555
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 12: to blend in and walk among the patrons. Let's not

556
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 12: even talk about all the people on the train that

557
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 12: didn't do a thing. That's another topic.

558
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: Not a dam in saying not a thing. In fact,

559
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: some of them in just not doing anything to help Arianna.

560
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: They actually started videoing her as she's dying. Okay, I'm

561
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: glad you brought up what you did, Ron Bateman about

562
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: the folding knife. Unlike the fixed blade knife used by

563
00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: Brian Koberger to butcher four in a sent Idaho students,

564
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: this is a folding blade used in the murder of

565
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: Arena to Randy Kessler. Uh, oh, where's Kessler? Don't see him?

566
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: Let's see him. Kessler, go ahead and get your kleenex.

567
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: Because many people would argue one two seconds don't matter

568
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: what they do under the law. The time it takes,

569
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: and you can see it on video, him fidgeting around,

570
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: digging in his pockets to get the knife. Then he

571
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: unfolds the knife and positions it. That buys me about

572
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: five more seconds to form intent. Way when Kessler, yeah, well, I.

573
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 4: Don't know what you're going to do, and I don't

574
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 4: know what you want me to do with that. He

575
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 4: opened the knife and he did something with it. But

576
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 4: did he know what he was doing, did he know

577
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 4: that he was actually did he think it was him?

578
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 5: His argument is going to be some other personality to

579
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 5: go over.

580
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: Think it was him?

581
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 5: Wait what Yes, listen to the videos, Listen to the argument.

582
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: I think it was due.

583
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 4: He did not think it was himself. He thought of

584
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 4: somebody else in his somebody else making him do this.

585
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 4: He was obviously mentally disturbed, heating form the content. Something

586
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 4: in his brain went wrong and made him do that.

587
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 4: That's the mental insanity defense that he's going to have

588
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 4: to use.

589
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 5: I don't know what else he has.

590
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: In the last hours, newly obtained nine to one one

591
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: audio and video. Now, this is video from the public

592
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: transport train. There's plenty of video circulating out there because

593
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: many of the train writers the patrons, instead of trying

594
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: to help Arena, started videoing her as she died. Let's

595
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: see thirty eight showing Arena getting onto the train and

596
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: taking her seat, minding her own business. She worked two jobs,

597
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: new to the US, seeking a better life according to

598
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 1: her family and God bless her soul. Look who is

599
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: sitting behind her, and he's staring at her right now

600
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: like a wolf looking at a sheep. She gets on,

601
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: looks around and takes a seat fortuitously in front of

602
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: the defendant. Let's move to thirty nine. I want you

603
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: to see the defendant moving in his seat. This is

604
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 1: what we call time to form intent. Fidgeting with the knife,

605
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: and we're stopping it right there. We don't need to

606
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,399
Speaker 1: see the next frame. I'll see it again time right

607
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 1: there under the law to form intent. She comes and

608
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: sits down. He's staring at her, stares at her like

609
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 1: a wolf, and then pulls his knife, looks at it,

610
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: unfolds it, and stands up to murder her. Let's move

611
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 1: to forty. This video showing a close up of the

612
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 1: defendant's hands. That's Arena's hat. Look if that's not intent,

613
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,439
Speaker 1: that is intent. What do you have to say to that?

614
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 1: Keep on the video, Kessler, look at that. I'm totally

615
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: going to slow mow that for the jury.

616
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 5: So I've maintained all along this is a case about sentencing.

617
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 3: Right.

618
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 4: You can tell me all day long that it's not

619
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 4: just about sensing. You're going to get a conviction, but

620
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,720
Speaker 4: what made him do that? You say, the why doesn't matter.

621
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 4: Jury's always want to know why. And you know what,

622
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 4: if there's a mental insanity defense, the why is going

623
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 4: to matter, and that's going to be the only thing

624
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 4: he has if he goes to trial. To argue is

625
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 4: that he was out of his mind, he did not

626
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 4: know what he was doing, he was been controlled, possessed,

627
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 4: whatever it is, because you're right. Otherwise you've got the intent,

628
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 4: the you've got the conviction.

629
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 5: If he doesn't use him at much.

630
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,959
Speaker 1: Sure, if he was quote possessed all the other fourteen times,

631
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: maybe that he committed a crime, some of them violent.

632
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: This is not age progression, people, This is just a

633
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 1: few of his mini arrests. I say, Kessler, because I

634
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,320
Speaker 1: don't want him to hide behind some pictures you're putting up. Kessler,

635
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: did you actually just say maybe he was possessed. You're

636
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 1: going to bring dem on expirits in as a defense.

637
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: I can't wait. Is that what you just said? I

638
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 1: heard it. I can play it back.

639
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,359
Speaker 5: You said, using a lay person termed.

640
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 4: It's you know, you want to use psychological term schizophrenic.

641
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 4: Somebody he thought that he was possessed. He thought that

642
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 4: somebody else was in his body, some sort of government

643
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 4: device was in his body. He thought something else was

644
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 4: going on. He is not owning this act. He did

645
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 4: not say I don't know why I did this. He

646
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 4: was saying, look, you know, I don't know what happened.

647
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 4: But they need to scan me, they need to investigate me,

648
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 4: They need to figure this out. Something was going on

649
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 4: in his brain, and we don't understand brains yet far

650
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:44,720
Speaker 4: enough to understand why this happened.

651
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 5: But clearly he did not say I did it and.

652
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 4: I'm sorry or I can't figure out why I did it.

653
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 4: He doesn't seem to have any recollection, so it's a

654
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:52,760
Speaker 4: mental health defense.

655
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: It's clearly recollection. I can tell you this is the

656
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: deathnitel for the defense when a JD starts talking like

657
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 1: an MD. I just heard you trying to describe the

658
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 1: human brain. Good luck with that. I know my limitations.

659
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 1: I am not Did you hear me talking to coin?

660
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 1: I know that. I don't know, but I love you

661
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: theorizing on his brain function. I want to go to

662
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,760
Speaker 1: a special guest joining us any Con. He is director

663
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,760
Speaker 1: of Victim Services and Advocacy Crime Stoppers out of Houston.

664
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: Longtime friend and colleague who first introduced me to murder

665
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 1: rebelia people making money off murder? Any Con. How many

666
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: times have you heard a defense attorney much like Randy

667
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: Kessler joining us tonight state he didn't know what he

668
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,439
Speaker 1: was doing. Well, you know what. He knew what train

669
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,359
Speaker 1: stop to get off, didn't he He needed to take

670
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,280
Speaker 1: off that bloody shirt and wrap it around his hand,

671
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: not just the hurt hand that he sliced himself, but

672
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 1: to change clothes. He got off that train at the

673
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: very next stop and tried to walk away hit it. Andy.

674
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 7: You know the.

675
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 5: Video speaks volumes.

676
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 14: I mean, there's no way off answer, Butts, he knew

677
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 14: exactly what he was doing.

678
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:12,879
Speaker 5: He tried to cover up.

679
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 14: But the real story to me is you had a

680
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 14: young lady who fled war torn, war torn Ukraine only

681
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 14: to end up being murdered in the United States. Now

682
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 14: we look at what happened with the defendant. This defendant's

683
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 14: got a rap sheet. Ye long fourteen arrest and in

684
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 14: and out of jail, in and out of prisons, in

685
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,800
Speaker 14: and out of mental hospitals, and so forth.

686
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 10: This is a.

687
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 14: Total cataclysmic criminal justice system failure. This is a tragedy, yes,

688
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 14: but it was so utterly preventable. And my position again

689
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 14: is we continue to allow repeat offenders right back into

690
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 14: our community to do what they do best, and that's

691
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 14: commit This is not just a North Carolina It's a

692
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 14: national issue. In Houston We've documented over two hundred plus

693
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 14: people that have been murdered by defendants released on what's

694
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 14: called a personal recognance bond, which is what this defendant

695
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:21,479
Speaker 14: was recently released on. That is about as disturbing as

696
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 14: it gets. And I'm hoping that this will ultimately open

697
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 14: up everybody's eyes, not just in North Carolina, but all

698
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 14: over the country that the criminal justice reform movement has

699
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 14: led to more victimization, more murders than any other natural

700
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 14: disaster in this country's history.

701
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace two Susan Hendricks joining US

702
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 1: investigative journalists. I want to follow up on what Andy

703
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: kan just said. This guy just got out of jail.

704
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 1: Why who let him out of jail? Exactly?

705
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 13: And it was mentioned of a foreigm laws they're not

706
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 13: working fourteen. When you put up those mug shots, Nancy,

707
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 13: and that's not all of them, you think, how could

708
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 13: this guy have gotten out? What was he doing there

709
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 13: in the first place? The governor signing a law in

710
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 13: her name, Arena's law. But he even says, look, this

711
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 13: isn't enough. It's a step in the right direction, but

712
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 13: it's clearly not enough, meaning it will take away some

713
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 13: of the power from the judges to make that decision

714
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 13: in letting someone who has priors out of prison.

715
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: Guys, we know who the judge was. She is about

716
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: as hard on crime as a limp noodle. Her name

717
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,320
Speaker 1: is Judge Teresa Stokes. Let's listen.

718
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 6: In September twenty twenty two, Brown arrested on assault on

719
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,879
Speaker 6: a female an injury to property. April twenty twenty four,

720
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 6: Brown arrested for me using nine one one May twenty

721
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,399
Speaker 6: twenty four, misusing nine one one January twenty twenty five,

722
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 6: misusing nine one one January twenty twenty five. Judge Teresa

723
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 6: Stokes release Brown the same day he was arrested on

724
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 6: a written promise to appear. Brown did not present himself

725
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 6: for evaluation. Three weeks later. He is alleged to have

726
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,840
Speaker 6: killed Irena. If that order was followed, he would have

727
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 6: been evaluated weeks before the stabbing. The public defender in

728
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 6: his murdered charge filed a motion questioning Brown's mental capacity,

729
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 6: and Wiggins again ordered dB evaluated. Police have not identified

730
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 6: any motive or lengthy attack to mental illness in the

731
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 6: last hours.

732
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 1: Newly released nine to one one audio and video. Let's

733
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: take a look this video is showing the defendant calmly

734
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: waiting to exit the train. He knows exactly what he's doing,

735
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: making way for people, and look at everybody walking around

736
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: the blood. Yeah they didn't help her, but they don't

737
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 1: want to get their tennis shoes bloody. And there he goes.

738
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: He knows exactly what's going on around him. He knows

739
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,720
Speaker 1: when the train door opens that this is his exit

740
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 1: and he's leaving. Oranda, by the way, is bleeding out

741
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: dead right now. To Randy Kessler joining us, this is

742
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 1: not only a state case, but a federal case as well.

743
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: Explain why a special fleet of lawyers have been appointed

744
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,919
Speaker 1: that are death qualified. What does that mean?

745
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 4: Because you want to make it appeal proof, right, lawyers

746
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 4: that are qualified to take on death penalty cases. Then

747
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 4: he cant after the fact say well, I had ineffective

748
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,280
Speaker 4: assistance of counsel. My lawyers didn't understand how to handle

749
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 4: a death penalty case. They're protecting the verdict and the conviction.

750
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: Straightforward, easy is that the case will get reversed if

751
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 1: there is a conviction, if there is a death penalty sentence,

752
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: if the lawyers are not death qualified. In other words,

753
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 1: you have to sit on X number of death penalty cases,

754
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 1: either first chair or second chair. So you know what

755
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 1: you're doing. It's got to be a fair fight, now,

756
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 1: isn't a true? Susan Hendrix that he the suspect has

757
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 1: been sent for evaluation, mental evaluation to see if he

758
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: is competent to stand trial.

759
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 13: Yes, absolutely he is and will be evaluated. I was

760
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 13: listening to a prison phone call between him and his

761
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 13: sister and he doesn't make any sense. I don't know

762
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 13: if that's because he is insane or he's acting like

763
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 13: he does have a problem.

764
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 5: But I think they.

765
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 13: Will, of course be brought into court and he will

766
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 13: be evaluated, and I think that that's the way the

767
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 13: defense will go. But how can you erase these fourteen

768
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 13: mugshots in all and the video there is just like

769
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 13: you said, Nancy planning this out, opening the knife and

770
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,240
Speaker 13: doing it. He said to his sister in the jailhouse

771
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 13: call that he felt that they wanted him.

772
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 5: To do it. He didn't do it, he was told

773
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 5: to do it.

774
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:11,280
Speaker 13: We'll see if that works.

775
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:11,799
Speaker 5: I doubt it.

776
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 1: You know, Kessler, there's a big difference in evaluating someone

777
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 1: for incompetency and insanity. Explain and a nutshell. What is incompetency, Well, compecy, you.

778
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 5: Have to understand the proceedings.

779
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 4: It's not fair you can't help the lawyer defend you

780
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 4: if you're incompetent to stand trial. If you don't understand

781
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 4: the proceedings. To get off the hook for murder, you

782
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 4: have to have been insane at the time that it

783
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 4: happened that the thing happened. In Competency is more a

784
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 4: question of ability to stand trial. Do you understand the proceedings?

785
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 4: You need to be able to help in your own defense.

786
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:49,800
Speaker 4: And if you're not able to help in your own defense,

787
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 4: then you don't have a trial until you are able

788
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 4: to assist in your own defense.

789
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: Nutshell, kel slar. Would you agree that competency is being

790
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 1: able to to assist your lawyers in your defense at

791
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 1: your trial? Competent you are competent to assist your defense attorneys? Yes, okay?

792
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: And insanity is whether you knew right from wrong at

793
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: the time of the incident. The time of arena is killing.

794
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 1: They are two very different things.

795
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 5: Right, don't like to agree with you, but yes.

796
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,879
Speaker 1: So first, the lawyer is going to try to get

797
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 1: enroled incompetent. Why delay delay, delay, that's the first and

798
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 1: the last rule in the defense playbook. Why people forget

799
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: about it. Their memories fade, witnesses actually die, important witnesses

800
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 1: actually die or move, you can't find them, and the

801
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 1: inflammation surrounding the murder of an innocent young woman can

802
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 1: die down. How people forget about it. That's why the

803
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 1: defense wants a delay. Would you at least agree with that?

804
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 4: Yes, And it's probably easier to find incompetent at the

805
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 4: time a trial than insanity at the time. How do

806
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 4: you get inside of his mind at that exact moment,

807
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 4: whereas right now they can interview him, Now we can

808
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 4: have a psychologists test him. Now, you know, it's easier

809
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 4: for a justice say I'm going to put off the

810
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 4: trial then do say, oh, we're going to let him

811
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 4: off the hook for murder because of insanity. So it's

812
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 4: an easier thing to argue for the defense council, and

813
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 4: you get a second bite at the apple. If you

814
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 4: lose that argument, you still can argue insanity at the

815
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 4: time of the murder.

816
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 1: Right, So if at some point, if he is rehabbed

817
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: and is determined he is competent to stand trial, then

818
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 1: when he goes on trial, the defense will be insanity,

819
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 1: and there are a host of variations. There's guilty but

820
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: mentally ill, there's not guilty by reason of insanity. There's

821
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 1: guilty but insane, just as a whole variation of what

822
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 1: a jury can come back on. Just throw me a

823
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: few choices, Kessler.

824
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 4: I mean, you've named them. It really doesn't matter what

825
00:46:58,239 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 4: you call him, and it's state by state. Each state

826
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 4: calls different things. But you're giving the jury options. If

827
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 4: there are people on the jury that say there's something

828
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 4: wrong with him. I can't find that he's a normal

829
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 4: person that just intentionally went after this person and did it.

830
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 4: I want to give him some minor little break because

831
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 4: he's got mental issues. They all to do use one

832
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,439
Speaker 4: of those other excuses to convict and say he had

833
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 4: mental issues. Mental you know, but you're right you named

834
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 4: three or four of them. They're called a whole bunch

835
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 4: of different things depending on which date you're in. But

836
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,240
Speaker 4: there are other options besides murder one.

837
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: What about Andy Kahn.

838
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 14: You know, as much as you want to blame the offender,

839
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 14: and obviously he deserves a lot.

840
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 5: Of blame, what happened to this young lady?

841
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 14: I blame our criminal justice system even more. They kept

842
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 14: knowingly allowing him to re enter society time and time again,

843
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 14: only to see him reoffend time and time again. And

844
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 14: how on the heck do you justify giving someone are

845
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 14: you no bond? A cash no cash bond and say here,

846
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:04,320
Speaker 14: you know in court that's insane to actually allow someone

847
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,760
Speaker 14: with his rap sheet just to walk out of court

848
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:11,720
Speaker 14: on the promise that you'll reappear again. This is what's

849
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:16,280
Speaker 14: driving our system and why the public has just lost

850
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 14: faith because we keep seeing offenders like him that are

851
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 14: recycled all over the time, and they end up killing people.

852
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 14: This was a tragedy, but it was so utterly preventable

853
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 14: and it's a total systematic failure.

854
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 10: And I know you'll agree.

855
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 14: With me on this, Nancy, but I get sick and

856
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:40,319
Speaker 14: tired of naming laws after dead people. And yet now

857
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:43,800
Speaker 14: we have a new law named after Arena that hopefully

858
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 14: others won't end up with the same faith as she

859
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 14: has now become.

860
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 15: Despite all of this past documented criminal history. When Brown

861
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 15: was arrested yet again in January of this past year,

862
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 15: a Democrat.

863
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 1: Judge who will I will add was.

864
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:00,800
Speaker 15: A supporter a strong supporter of form or Vice President

865
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 15: Kamala Harris released this insane criminal once again without requiring

866
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 15: him to pay any bail. He simply had to sign

867
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 15: a written promise to return for his court hearing. Think

868
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 15: about how crazy it is to ask a career criminal,

869
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 15: someone who by definition repeatedly breaks the law, to just

870
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 15: sign a written promise and come.

871
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 1: Back again another day. This is madness.

872
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 15: This monster should have been locked up and Arena should

873
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 15: still be alive.

874
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 1: From Fox Straight Out to Karen's Stark forensic psychologist renowned

875
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 1: TV radio trauma expert Karen way In.

876
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 8: I have to tell you, Nancy, yes, this guy has

877
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 8: been diagnosed I've heard with schizophrenia, but I see intent.

878
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 8: He knew to have that knife. He fled after he

879
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:55,839
Speaker 8: committed that crime. And when her sister said to him,

880
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 8: why did you do that? Why did you do that

881
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 8: to the citizen person? And he said she was reading

882
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 8: my mind, which tells me that he has a rationalization

883
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 8: that he actually, after the fact, was trying to explain

884
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 8: what he did, which means that he knows the difference,

885
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 8: He understands he did something, and he wants to come

886
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:23,280
Speaker 8: up with some kind of an explanation. So I see intent,

887
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 8: I see somebody who knew exactly what he was doing.

888
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 1: Ron Bateman joining me. Former homicide detective, former undercover narc

889
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 1: and author of a series Silent Blue Tears. You can

890
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:43,839
Speaker 1: find it at Ronbatemanbooks dot com. Ron is, the investigators

891
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 1: here are, much like yourself, have their work cut out

892
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 1: for them. They don't have to prove just what happened.

893
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 1: They've got the right guy. Now the state, including investigators,

894
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 1: are going to have to prove he knew what he

895
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 1: was doing and that it was wrong. Ron, how do

896
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:01,399
Speaker 1: you go about doing that?

897
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 12: Well, you know, you got to ask the question, which

898
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 12: is really obvious. If he didn't know what what he

899
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 12: was doing was wrong, then why did he leave his seat?

900
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 12: If he was completely schizophrenic and didn't know what was

901
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 12: going on, what he did was right, he would have

902
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 12: stayed put. But we know we've already talked about it.

903
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 12: He did all those things. He tried to conceal his

904
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:22,919
Speaker 12: identity and tried to burn into the crowd and blah

905
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 12: blah blah, try to cover his hand up and all that.

906
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 12: But I got to make one point that the community

907
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 12: is crying about that. Maybe you don't hear Nancy, but

908
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 12: I do what the hell is wrong with the media

909
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:37,919
Speaker 12: by Keith repeatedly showing these this murder over and over again.

910
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,439
Speaker 12: Thank god your staff didn't do it today. We saw

911
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 12: Charlie Kirk murdered a thousand times. We've seen this poor

912
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 12: girl staff a thousand times. Are we so desensitized that

913
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 12: we have totally thrown away the victim's dignity and respect

914
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 12: that her parents probably most likely saw this and didn't

915
00:51:58,760 --> 00:51:59,760
Speaker 12: learn about it in private.

916
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 5: They should have.

917
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:04,720
Speaker 12: This is really despicable that the media released this video.

918
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 12: Now you can release stills of the suspects so we

919
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 12: can find them. Good, no problem. But the Charlotte Transit Department,

920
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 12: you know, I don't know if it's a PIA that

921
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 12: went out of Public Information Act request, but they released

922
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 12: it and they didn't give it any thought, and it

923
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:20,439
Speaker 12: was just for a god darned sound bite. And that's

924
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 12: bull crap. That is so desensitized. Desensitivity is just just

925
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 12: off the charts.

926
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 1: Andy con He's right.

927
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 14: We are caring more about defendants rights than we are

928
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 14: about victims' rights, and we repeatedly see this with crime

929
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 14: scene photos being sold online, videos being made of victims.

930
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:45,840
Speaker 5: That are murdered and she deserves better.

931
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 14: But again I'm going to close with this. The defendant

932
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 14: fair share of the blame. But this is a total

933
00:52:54,360 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 14: systematic failure. It never should have happened. You cannot continue.

934
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 14: You to continue to recycle offenders over and over again

935
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 14: and expect a better outcome. She paid the ultimate price.

936
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 14: The only question is how many more are going to

937
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 14: pay the price under the guise of criminal justice reform

938
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 14: that has taking its toll on all our citizens throughout

939
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 14: the country. Enough is enough? This has to end.

940
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 1: Hey Nancy, Yeah, jump Han please.

941
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 12: Yeah, what I want to say? You know, we're so

942
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 12: we were so hell bent on showing this video over

943
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:34,359
Speaker 12: and over again. Are we going to show a firing squad, which,

944
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 12: by the way, I could clear my schedule for that day.

945
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 12: Are we going to show the firing squad killing this guy? No,

946
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 12: that's we're not, because we just care about this little

947
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 12: cool SoundBite to get some attention, which is horrible, horrible

948
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:48,920
Speaker 12: for the victims.

949
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 1: And I assume you're referring to the moment that Arena

950
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 1: was actually stabbed, Doctor Coin, question to you. Many people

951
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: want to believe that Arena's death was instantaneous, that she

952
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:04,760
Speaker 1: felt nothing. That one moment, she's looking at her phone.

953
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 1: In the next moment she's looking at angels. That's not

954
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 1: what happened, Doctor Coyne. She suffered No.

955
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 11: I mean, you can argue that maybe she went unconscious,

956
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:19,000
Speaker 11: you know, within a minute or just less. But she

957
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 11: certainly would have felt that stab wound, and you could

958
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 11: see when she looked at her attacker. She certainly would

959
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 11: have had that sudden rush of fear and panic before

960
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:29,759
Speaker 11: she passed out.

961
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:38,240
Speaker 1: And to Susan Hendricks, investigative journalist and author, Susan what next.

962
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 13: We owe Arena something. The United States owes her something.

963
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 13: I hope there's real change here. The embassy US embassy

964
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:51,720
Speaker 13: in Ukraine working to get her body back there. Guess

965
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 13: what her mom said. No, she loved the United States.

966
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 13: That's why she came here. She's buried here. We owe

967
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,239
Speaker 13: her something. I hope real change comes out of this.

968
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about this case,

969
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 1: the case is being built by the state and the defense.

970
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:13,760
Speaker 1: As we go to air tonight, please dial seven zero

971
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:18,239
Speaker 1: four three three four sixteen hundred repeat seven zero four

972
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:24,359
Speaker 1: three three four sixteen hundred and let me emphasize as

973
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 1: we go to air de Curlos. Brown is presumed innocent

974
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 1: unless and until the state overcomes that presumption with evidence

975
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 1: that proves this guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And no,

976
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 1: we do not want anyone that was legally insane at

977
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 1: the time of the incident to get the death penalty. However,

978
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 1: his actions belie that claim. We remember an American hero

979
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:59,360
Speaker 1: Officer Ray Barontis child Chilipea, d California, killed in the

980
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 1: line of duty, leaving behind a grieving wife in three children.

981
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:11,799
Speaker 1: American hero Officer Ray Brantis. Nancy Grace signing off your

982
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:12,359
Speaker 1: wife had