1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,240 Speaker 1: All right, welcome back. You are listening to another episode 2 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: of the markma Show where we talk about the decentralized revolution, 3 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: the way the world is changing from centralization to decentralization. 4 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: Of course, we look at it through the lens of politics, finance, 5 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: and technology. Technology is the catalyst that changes the world 6 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: through thousands of years of history, and of course we 7 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: have the decentralized technology of bitcoin that has changed in 8 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,600 Speaker 1: the world. We're gonna dig into a topic. Like I said, 9 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: I like to look at it from the lens of politics, finance, 10 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: and technology, and today it's really all three combined that 11 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: are under attack. And I'm joined in studio by Ohmid Malikan. 12 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: If I said that right, you can find him on 13 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: Twitter at Malik Anam's will put it in the show 14 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: link down below. He's the author of a book called 15 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: re Architecting Trust, which, of course, to be watching my 16 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:46,919 Speaker 1: show is something I talked about a lot, and he's 17 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 1: the adjunct professor at Columbia Business School as well. Oh Man, 18 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining me today. Thanks for having 19 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: me so. You know, I like to look at the 20 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: world changing through the lens of the politics, finance, and technology, 21 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: and this one issue specifically, and we'll talk about today, 22 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: is really all three of those. It's a political method 23 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: attacking um source of some sort of technology that kind 24 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: of masquerades as a as a financial thing. And it 25 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: was you know, all of the Treasury Secretary, you know, 26 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,559 Speaker 1: the Treasury Department. I mean, it's all three of those, 27 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: um and and it's something you've been talking about quite 28 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: a bit um And of course we're talking about Tornado cash. 29 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: Why don't you kind of frame that up for us 30 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,479 Speaker 1: a little bit? So one thing that not enough people 31 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 1: recognize or appreciate is the fact that in crypto, full 32 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: transparency is the default state, which is definitely not true, 33 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: would say the banking system. Right, like you and I 34 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 1: do a bitcoin transaction, we both now see each other's 35 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: the entire financial history, which is great from a security 36 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: point of view. But then, uh, if this technology and 37 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: new financial system is to go mainstream, then it's not 38 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: really gonna work, right, Like, you can't have it that 39 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: every time you want to make a donation to a 40 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: charity or your company is paying you in crypto, now 41 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: suddenly you've exposed your wallet address that has your everything, right, 42 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: And I think like on a long enough timeline, it. 43 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: Your wallet will have your everything, your money, your stocks, 44 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: your n f T s, maybe the d to your house, 45 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: et cetera. So Tornado Cash for Me has actually a 46 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: very innocuous use, which is to just restore a basic 47 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: amount of financial privacy, which I think most people would 48 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: agree is a good thing. And what was so troubling 49 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: about the U. S. Government adding it to the sanctions 50 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: list was the fact that they were not criminalizing people 51 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: doing committing an actual crime like funding North Korea or 52 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: terrorists or something. They are now criminalizing the mere act 53 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: of seeking financial privacy. And I think the connotations for that, 54 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: the dangerous connotations for that move are actually much bigger 55 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: than crypto. Uh yeah, I would say that. I would. 56 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: I would even say, um, maybe it's even bigger than that. 57 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 1: So the problem that we have is when we have 58 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: I consider bitcoin to be a technological revolution, not a 59 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: new technology. And the difference of that is a new 60 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: technology is cool, it's a it's a continuation of something. Uh. 61 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: An iPhone is a new technology. We took a computer phone, 62 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: we put them together. That's cool, great. Um a technology 63 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: technological revolution is different, it's bigger. There's been five of them. Um, 64 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: so industrial revolution, steam engines, railways, electricity and steel, um oil, automobiles, 65 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: microprocessors and when humans we are not good at seeing 66 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: the future, so we try to understand it from something 67 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: that we already know. So, like when electricity was invented, 68 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: what was the first application of electricity? It was a 69 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: light bulb? Right, So what is this electricity thing here? Omitt, Oh, 70 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: well it's kind of like a digital candle. What the 71 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: hell do we need that for? Candles have been light 72 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: for five thousand years? Right, Um, we don't them. We 73 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: don't need all these stupid wires. We just have a candle. Well, 74 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: electricity was like that, but it became so much more. 75 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: And so the problem that I have is I think 76 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: this is something so revolutionary. Um, all new technology has 77 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: the first killer application, like the Internet. The first killer 78 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: application of the Internet was email. That's what got everybody addicted. 79 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: But now we use it to like have my car, 80 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: use AI to navigate me around traffic, using social media 81 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 1: or something right like. And so when we say that 82 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: it's an attack, it's an attack on software, it's attack 83 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: on financial privacy, but it's really it's it's an attack 84 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: on software. I think maybe because if if it's only financial, 85 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 1: then that limits the really the grasp of what software 86 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: really could do. Maybe I don't know if that matters 87 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: for what you're thinking. It does actually in part because 88 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: the I like your framing of crypto really being a 89 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: financial revolution, because the idea of a revolution is not 90 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: just not just financi right, sorry, a a revolution technological 91 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: and and even application wise, go bigger. Like my the 92 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: book I wrote is really a book about trust, because 93 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: trust matters in everything that's important in life, and that 94 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: includes finance, but it also includes something like a social 95 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: media platform, like you're gonna go on Twitter, Facebook, how 96 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 1: do you trust what they're showing you? How do you 97 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: trust that they're not gonna suddenly cancel you if you 98 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: say something that's politically not fashionable. Um, and the and 99 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: the risk. The list goes on and on from there. 100 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: So I've spent years trying to figure out how to 101 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: communicate the core value proposition of crypto to people who 102 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: are not technologists, they're not financed people, they're not traders, 103 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: And the one thing that I found resonates is to 104 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 1: just tell them that this is a new and better 105 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: way to build trust among communities of people and the 106 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,799 Speaker 1: applications of that to me are end us, which means 107 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: that if you have something like an arm of the U. S. 108 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: Government trying to really clamp down on it, then the 109 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 1: limitations that they're going to impose on all the benefits 110 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 1: are also endless. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah, So it's definitely trust lists, right, 111 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: so instead of having to trust this third party central 112 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: in a mary, um, now we don't have to trust anybody. 113 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: But the reason why I wanted to take it like 114 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: one level higher was because of really what I think 115 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 1: the implications are. Because if you're saying, well, they're trying 116 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: to take away people's right to financial privacy, which is true, 117 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: But I think what they've done is to the point 118 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: that you made earlier. Um, what they've done is they've 119 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: sanctioned a software protocol, which has never been done before. 120 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: So they typically would sanction a person or maybe a country, 121 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 1: but that person should have some sort of due process 122 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,239 Speaker 1: and should have a right to probably appeal that or something. 123 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, I believe on the sanctioned 124 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: list there's a link where you can actually appeal to 125 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: get taken off of that list. But how does the 126 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: software protocol have due process? How do they appeal that. 127 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: That's a great point. They can't, which is kind of 128 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: the scary part of this, right, because once you expand 129 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: the sanction ability to code and language and maybe even 130 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,559 Speaker 1: physical devices, then the skies the limit, right, Like, yes, 131 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: I am sure bad people have used Tornado cash, but 132 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: bad people I also use the Internet and iPhones and flashlights. 133 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: So this is one of those instances where I think 134 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: the slippery slope argument is very applicable. Yeah. Yeah, we 135 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: we have laws against doing certain things. Um, so if 136 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: you commit murder, obviously we have a law against that. 137 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: But if you drove a car on the highway to 138 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: commit that murder, you don't sanction the highway, right, you 139 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: don't sancs in the car. We have cars, we have 140 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: we have highways. I bet that that killer probably drank 141 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: some water before he went there too, we don't sanction 142 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: the water, right. Um, what what he did was illegal, 143 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: and so we look at it in those terms. And 144 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: so I was just trying to look at it from 145 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: a bigger standpoint because what I'm afraid is like, um, 146 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: what about you know signal on my phone or tour 147 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: uh tour for my you know internet? Right, So what 148 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: it's doing is it's a it's I don't even know 149 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: if it's a mixing service so much, but it's a 150 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: way that we can kind of like hot blend in 151 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: with a bigger transactions. But that's exactly what tore does. 152 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: It blends my internet surfing together or sit you know. Um, 153 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: and if you if you start sanctioning that, that has 154 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: massive implications. Yeah. And it's not just tour I mean, 155 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: if you're talking about software and language, then yes, but 156 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: like why do we have blinds and curtains on our windows? 157 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: Why why do we have doors for bathrooms? It's it's 158 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: to me privacy is one of the most fundamental human 159 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: rights because any person, you mean, it doesn't matter whether 160 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: political discvision, this position is there are things about themselves 161 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: that they don't want the world to know. Yeah. I 162 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: love that thought. I want to I want to come 163 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 1: back to that. I want to get back to this 164 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: privacy and trust issue. We'll talk about your book. I'm 165 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: in the studio with Ohmd Molikan. We're talking about the 166 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: death of trust, something to talk a lot about. Of course, 167 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:20,679 Speaker 1: you're listening to the Mark Moa show talking about the 168 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 1: decentralized Revolution. I'm gonna be back with this conversation and 169 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: more in a minute. So don't go away, We'll be 170 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: right back. All right, welcome back. You are listening to 171 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: the Mark mo Show talking about the decentralized revolution, the 172 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: way the world is changing through the lens of politics, finance, 173 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: and technology. I'm in the studio with Ohmd Molikan. He's 174 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: the UM author of a book called re Architect and 175 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 1: trust Agent, professor at Columbia Business School. Let's um, we 176 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: were talking before the break about you know what happened 177 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 1: and the sanctions against the software protocol what that means. 178 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: Let's just jump even back to a higher level. So 179 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,079 Speaker 1: before we went on the break, you were talking about, um, 180 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: why do we have curtains on our home? Why don't 181 00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: we have doors in our bathroom? A lot of people 182 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 1: might say, well, if you don't have anything to hide, 183 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: what you need privacy for? And I would love to 184 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: find one person like in real life that would actually 185 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:07,719 Speaker 1: say that. And then I would say, well give me 186 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 1: your phone, let me let me stroll through your phone. 187 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: Like nobody would do that, right, Like they wouldn't do that. Um, 188 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: but let's jump to a little higher level. And when 189 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: you wrote the book re Architect, and trust. Um, how 190 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: does this issue with trust and privacy? How do you 191 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: see those two things were kind of working together. So 192 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: there's this The interesting thing about trust is that there 193 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: is this cyclicality to it. And uh, you alluded to something. 194 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: I think it was earlier this year at the Bigcoin conference, 195 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: after the UM what happened with Russian sanctions and the 196 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: Canadian truckers that they don't We're witnessing the loss of 197 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: trust and then you reach a point of no return 198 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: where the whole thing falls apart, and I try to 199 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: build out allegorically this thesis in the book that the 200 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: funny thing about trust is that in the long run 201 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: it's always self defeating. You know, the more trust people 202 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,719 Speaker 1: put in a person, a company, a government and institution, 203 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: then the more likely it becomes to abuse that trust 204 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: in the long run. Right, And like a simple example 205 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: of that is we had a guy like Bernie made Off, 206 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: who was actually considered a very clean, respected man on 207 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,839 Speaker 1: Wall Street, and because of that, no one bothered to 208 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: double check what he was doing. If it was just 209 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: you and me trying to do what he was doing, 210 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: then probably people would have been a lot more suspicious 211 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: and skeptical and not that we would do a Ponzi scheme, 212 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: but we couldn't get away with it even if we 213 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: wanted to. So history is rife with examples and I 214 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: have many of them in the book where someone does 215 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: something good, becomes in a position where we trust them, 216 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: and then they slowly begin to abuse that trust for 217 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 1: the simple reason that they can. And that's why trust 218 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: is always cyclical. So in the example that we're talking about, 219 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why the dollar is the global 220 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: reserve currency and frankly why America is the most powerful 221 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: country in the world in many ways, the most um 222 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: desirable country roles for people to interact with and living 223 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: is because of trust. Because our system, our laws, and 224 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: historically our system of money was one that was predictable. 225 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: There were rules. We followed our own rules, even when 226 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: it harmed us and what's been happening. And we had 227 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: a rule of law. That's the big thing that you're saying. 228 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: We had a rule of law. Other nations they seize 229 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: people's stuff whatever the no rule of law. We had 230 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: that here people could trust that there would be a 231 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: rule of law. Yeah, and historically, specifically, if you want 232 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: to be the issuer of a global reserve currency, then 233 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: having a reliable legal system is a requirement. Um, that's why, 234 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: like today, China is one of the biggest economies in 235 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,719 Speaker 1: the world, the biggest country by population, nobody uses its 236 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: currency for international trade because they don't trust its legal system. 237 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 1: So it's troubling with Tornado. And then before that, what 238 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: happened with Russian sanctions. And I know the Canadian truckers 239 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:02,559 Speaker 1: was Canadian, but it's actually not hard for me to 240 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: imagine the same thing happening here in America is that 241 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: we are starting to abuse that trust. We're starting to 242 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: go back on our own values of the rule of law. 243 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 1: And I think for Americans like me and you, this 244 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: is going to have negative consequences down the road. What 245 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: about I mean, one thing that really shook me hard 246 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: was the highest branch of government, well one of the 247 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 1: three branches of government, that the Supreme Court had information leaked, 248 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: the most sacred body in the United States, the Supreme 249 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:44,079 Speaker 1: Court had information leak that was obviously one side, very partisan, 250 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: that was specifically leaked for a very specific purpose that 251 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: was an attack on the highest union. And then and 252 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: then not to be outdone, California, then, um, they were 253 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: mad because the Supreme Court had also overturned some gun 254 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: rights laws, and the California governor and the head the 255 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 1: head of the Justice Department said, um, that we're going 256 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 1: to come back and fight against this with everything that 257 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: we have. And then a week later, os we just 258 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: leaked all the names of all our concealed permit like 259 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: so not on the Supreme Court, and then the Department 260 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: of Justice in California just accidentally leaked it after they 261 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: vowed to get vengeance, Like those are the highest level. 262 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: If we can't trust the courts and the Justice Department, 263 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: what does that say about trust? Yeah? Unfortunately, these are 264 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: examples of a continuing trend that we're all experiencing in America, 265 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: and I think it's actually like the scariest part of 266 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: it to me is that it's totally bipartisan. The kind 267 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: of things that trouble someone like me, like violating the 268 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: rule of law and some of these slippery slope examples 269 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: with things like financial crimes. Uh, these are the things 270 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: that seemed to be happening on both sides, and the 271 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: result is what we're seeing today, which is that people 272 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: increasingly don't trust their government, and then by extension, don't 273 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: trust each other. So it's cyclical. I like how you 274 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: frame that up. I hadn't really thought about it like that. 275 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: And the problem is that we have human nature that's 276 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: always involved, and so that's kind of like to your point, right, 277 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: that's the same reason why, in my opinion, we can't 278 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: have humans controlling money. Not one should control money. UM. 279 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: And so back to trust. So gold had been money 280 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: for five thousand years. UM. They said, hey, gold doesn't 281 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: have enough velocity. We can't move it fast enough. So 282 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: if we put the gold into the bank, UM will 283 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: issue debt on top of it. So you have a 284 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: paper goal stificate and IOU and we'll hold the gold. 285 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: You have the I O U s and then whatever 286 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: you want, you can just redeem them. And so people 287 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: trusted that. But then they printed too many of those 288 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: paper goals stificates and so by nine thirty three the 289 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: government owed more gold than they had. So they said, well, 290 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: here's what we do. Well, just seize all the gold. 291 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: So they seized all the gold, and then after they 292 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: seized it all, then they revalued it. So not only 293 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: do they seize your gold, then they stole your wealth. 294 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: So that was a big blow to trust it. Somehow 295 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: people still trusted I don't know how UM. And then 296 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: one comes along and they say, oh, now we're just 297 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: going to default to the whole world on the goal 298 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: that we owed up. I guess you know, are bad. 299 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: Like like, it seems like that the death of trust 300 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: has been coming, coming, coming, coming. Do you think at 301 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: some point, like it's cyclical, like, where does it, like 302 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: UM come to a head? At some point, you could 303 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: argue it comes to a head with the inflation that 304 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: we're starting to see in almost every country in the 305 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: world now. And part of the reason why is, by 306 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: the way excellent history of money there. That's chapter one 307 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: of my book UM. When you tether your currency from 308 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: any form of discipline, like having it be backed by something. 309 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: It could be gold, could be anything, could be bitcoin, UM, 310 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: then you end up in situations with every subsequent crisis 311 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: where the central bank is like, oh, well, you know, 312 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: we can fix this by just printing a trillion dollars. 313 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: But then the next time around it you need to trillion, 314 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: and then the next time around you need a trillion. 315 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: And then you also have people in UM politics saying, oh, well, 316 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: if we're printing all this money, here's a list of 317 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:13,719 Speaker 1: causes that are near and dear in my heart. Can 318 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: you please print money to fix them? Yeah, exactly. So 319 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 1: I'd like to keep chasing this thread with you a 320 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 1: little bit because, um, in my opinion, as we I 321 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: kind of both just agree to it's it's humans. It's 322 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 1: just human nature. And uh, centralization leads to manipulation and 323 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:33,919 Speaker 1: something I like to say, And so the more power 324 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: and control you give me, the more I'm just gonna 325 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: probably start trying to manipulate that a little bit to 326 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: my favor, of course. But then so at some point 327 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: it seems like there must come to a head if 328 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: it's cyclical, and then it starts over again. So I 329 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: want to chase that through with you a little bit. 330 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: When we get back. You're listening to the Markma Show. 331 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: We're talking about the decentralized Revolution, the way the pendulum 332 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: is swinging from centralization to decentralization, looking at through the 333 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: lens of politics, finance, and technology. I'm in the studio 334 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: with Ohmed Moli Khan, the author of re Architecting Trust. 335 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: We got a lot more to cover when we come back. 336 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: Don't go away, We'll be right back, all right. Welcome back, 337 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: you are listening to the Mark Moa show. We're talking about, 338 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: of course, each and every week, the decentralized revolution, the 339 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: way the world is changing through the lens of politics, finance, 340 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: and technology. Of course technology being that big piece which 341 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 1: I'm in the studio talking with Ohmed Moli Khan, the 342 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: author of re Architecting Trust, and I think we're gonna 343 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: come back and pin technology on fixing this. But let's 344 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: see where we go with this. So, um, you're you 345 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: said how trust is cyclical, and I hadn't really thought 346 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: about it like that before, so it's kind of new. 347 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: I'm thinking through this as we're talking, and I can 348 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: understand how you're saying. The more we give trust to somebody, 349 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,439 Speaker 1: the more it gets violated or manipulated, and then at 350 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 1: some point it breaks, and then I guess it starts 351 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: over again. So, um, I don't trust my business partner anymore. 352 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: I probably will never trust him again, but maybe at 353 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: some point I'll go get a new business partner and 354 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,199 Speaker 1: I'll trust them, right, But then, like, um, you know, 355 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,199 Speaker 1: I won't trust my wife again if she cheats on me, 356 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,360 Speaker 1: but I'll probably get married again at some point, right 357 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: to be That's how it starts. UM. But then if 358 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: I think about it, like there's a lot of nations, 359 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: most of the nations in this world who don't have 360 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: a good rule of law. We're about we're kind of 361 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: in that bend today, But um, these nations don't seem 362 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: to restart, like trust never gets re established in China 363 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 1: or Iran or Lebanon. So how do you see that 364 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: cyclicality kind of playing out in the environment that we're in. 365 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 1: If you go back historically long enough, then you could 366 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: argue that even in those countries, like there were times 367 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 1: where they were the high trust societies and say like 368 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: the West was not UM. And one of the interesting things, 369 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: since we were talking about in the previous segment technological revolutions, 370 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,360 Speaker 1: the one thing that those always trend in one direction 371 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: are the interesting ways that people built and invent new 372 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,959 Speaker 1: technologies to become better at building trust. So even any 373 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: examples that you gave, like with your business partner, UM, 374 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: one example of a technology that will hopefully help you 375 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: regain trust with the future business partner is a contract. 376 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 1: Contracts to me were a technological innovation UM invented to 377 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: solve the problem of trust, and in ancient times they 378 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: had this problem of like, how do we even know 379 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 1: if the thing is authentic? So they would do in 380 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: the Middle Ages this crazy thing where they would write 381 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: two copies of the contract on the same piece of 382 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: paper and then they just tear it in half and 383 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 1: each party we get one half and when they got 384 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: together in the future, if the teeth lined up, then 385 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: it was an official contract. It wasn't a forgery. And that, 386 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 1: by the way, is the word where the word indenture 387 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 1: comes from from the Latin for dente or teeth. So 388 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 1: people have been doing this forever basically, And UM, to me, 389 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,199 Speaker 1: a simple way to understand blockchain and crypto is the 390 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 1: latest technological innovation in order to achieve trust, particularly in 391 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: a digital and global setting. I like that answer, And 392 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 1: that's that's exactly the way that I see it. It's 393 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: and that's kind of what I said at my I 394 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: was talking about my my talk at bitcoin at the 395 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 1: Bitcoin conference, and I said, UM, it's almost like we 396 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: need a decentralized ledger that nobody can control because as 397 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: long as somebody controls the ledger, and that's really what 398 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: it comes down to. Back to the gold example that 399 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: we had. UM, when I put my gold in the bank, 400 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,120 Speaker 1: and the bank gave me a paper clertificate they had 401 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: the ledger, who had you know who who has the 402 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: golden who has the I O US and so whoever 403 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: controls the ledger or the database, then that's who we're trusting. 404 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,959 Speaker 1: And so as long as Facebook has my data, I'm 405 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: trusting them not to manipulate my data. But of course 406 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 1: we can't trust them, they've been proven to sell my data. 407 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 1: As long as well as Fargo has my banking records, 408 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 1: I trust them not to do stuff. But they paid 409 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: the largest fine in history because they added a bunch 410 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,640 Speaker 1: of fake bank accounts. Right. Um, So like we've continued 411 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: to lose trust all these institutions, and so how do 412 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 1: we gain trust again. We need a new relationship and 413 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: probably with a new piece of technology that fixes that problem. 414 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 1: Which is back to the question I posed the audience 415 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: at the Bitcoin conference, which is it's sort of like 416 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: we need that decentralized ledger. So if we have a 417 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: ledger that nobody can control, um, then we could have 418 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: trust or as would bitcoin, we say it's trust less. 419 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: I don't have to trust, I can verify you trust 420 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: the outcome. Right, you don't have to trust any other 421 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,719 Speaker 1: party that's part of the system. But you just trust 422 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: that your coins are yours and yours only to do 423 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: something with and if you decide to send some to 424 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 1: a friend, no one can interfere with that transaction. Yeah, 425 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 1: now you've you've you know, I keep talking about bitcoin, 426 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: you keep talking about crypto, So there's a little bit 427 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: of a disconnect there. I'm just curious to your answer. 428 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: You would agree that if somebody could if somebody could 429 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 1: change the ledger, then it's not a trust less technology. 430 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: It would only be trust less if nobody could control 431 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:50,959 Speaker 1: the ledger. Yes, yeah, so, m I I put a 432 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: tweet this morning, or maybe I started writing and I forgot, 433 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: but um, it was something to the effect of what 434 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 1: we need is like a trust less technolog g about 435 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 1: what we got is a bunch of dog coins and 436 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,199 Speaker 1: memes or whatever. Right, But it's like the real revolution. 437 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: The real revolution to me is decentralization. That's the revolution. 438 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: So we've only we've only had centralized controls of ledgers, 439 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: and the real revolution is now we have this decentralized 440 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: technology that can have a ledger that nobody can control. 441 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: So if we have a ledger that somebody can control. 442 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: That's not really revolutionary in my opinion. So would you 443 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: agree with that? Yeah? So, I mean there's there's all 444 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 1: types of technologies and they're all cool and like I mean, 445 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 1: if you can put a dog on a on a 446 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: meme or whatever, like that's cool. But it's just not 447 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 1: a revolution. The revolution is the decentralization and that's where 448 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 1: the world needs. We need a way to regain trust 449 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,199 Speaker 1: again because we need to have global trade. Right with 450 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: global trade is uh is what allows us to have 451 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,360 Speaker 1: ideation and progress. But if we can't trust each other, 452 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: I'm afraid I did. I did a talk called d 453 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: evolution re evolution and so as the world has evolved 454 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: through global trade, um, now it's going to d evolved 455 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: because now we're going to go back into these small 456 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 1: island nations we can't trust each other. But then we 457 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 1: can re evolve if we can have a decentralized ledger 458 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: like bitcoin that we can trust. So I think I 459 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: think it's inevitable. Um. The more that I talk about 460 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: it was someone like you, the more I think it's inevitable, 461 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: um that we have them, and there's just no other 462 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: way that the world can move forward at this point. 463 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 1: It seems like I agree, and the more um trust 464 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: is lost in the traditional ways of doing things that 465 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: I think the greater the opening for something like bigcoin 466 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: and and the other applications of the technology. I'm not 467 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: to me, the battle here, the battle in the world 468 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: of ideas isn't really like between bigcoin and dog coins. 469 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: Even though I've never owned the dog coin, I'm not 470 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: really interested in dog coins UM. To me, though, I 471 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: feel like in crypto we fall into this trap where 472 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: we f fight a lot of these civil wars amongst ourselves, 473 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 1: but really it's a relatively small community UM going up 474 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: against everybody else. And the applications start first and foremost 475 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: with what bitcoin represents, which to me is censorship resistant 476 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: and UM eight political algorithmically minted money. I think that 477 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 1: is a magnificent, magnificent accomplishment in the having studied the 478 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: history of money. But then there are a lot of 479 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: other applications like defy because like you said, you know, 480 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: what is a bank. A bank is just a bunch 481 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: of ledgers. But they are not transparent ledgers. They are 482 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: not auditable ledgers, not by me and you anyway, UM, 483 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: they're not censorship resistant ledgers. In fact, the entire financial 484 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: system is built on active censorship and discrimination. So to me, um, 485 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: when you start with bitcoin, it's almost inevitable that then 486 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 1: you get to be like, well, why don't we use 487 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 1: the same idea to evolve not just money, but then 488 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 1: something like banking. Well, I think I think the reason 489 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: why is because back to the word of the day, 490 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: which is trust. I would encourage everybody on this let's 491 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,959 Speaker 1: listen to this right now. UM. I talk a lot 492 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 1: about investing topics. Don't ever loan money or invest money 493 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: into somebody that you don't know and you don't know 494 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: if they have ability to pay you back. Don't ever 495 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,439 Speaker 1: do that. You need to know who that person is. 496 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,479 Speaker 1: You must have done your due diligence, and you have 497 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: to have enough information where you trust that they'll pay 498 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: you that money back. And so when I got a 499 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: house loan, I needed someone to look at my credit 500 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 1: worthiness and determine if I can pay that money back 501 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: and give me a rate. Yours maybe isn't as good 502 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: or yours as better, so they give you a better rate, 503 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 1: and that's okay, But somebody has to decide that. And 504 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: the problem that I have with defy is like now, 505 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 1: I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna give money to somebody who 506 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: I don't know, and I don't know what the credit 507 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: worth is and I don't have any trust there. We'll 508 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 1: talk about that in a second. That's that's a big 509 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: topic I own a dig into. We don't have enough 510 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: time before the break, but it's an interesting conversation that 511 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: I love. I mean, like I said, this is a 512 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: key word that I use. Trust. You're listening to the 513 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: market Moall show. Of course, we talked about each and 514 00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: every week, the decentralized revolution, the way the world is 515 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: movements from centralization to decentralization with the new technology that 516 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: we have. I'm in the studio with Ohmad Malikan. You 517 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: can find him on Twitter at Malik Mali konoms Sorry man, 518 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: I'll link to in the shows down below. He is 519 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: the author of a book called re Architecting Trust. You 520 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,640 Speaker 1: should check it out, and he's an adject professor at 521 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 1: Columbia Business Business School. We're gonna be back talking about 522 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 1: defy and trust and technology and more in a minute. 523 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: You don't want to miss the conclusion of this, so 524 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: don't go away. We're gonna be right back, all right, 525 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 1: Welcome back. You were listening to the Markma Show. Forced 526 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: we talked about the decentralized revolution. Each and every week 527 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: I'm in the studio with Ohmed Malikan. You can find 528 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 1: them on Twitter at Malikan Ohms will link to that 529 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: in the show note below. He's the author of a 530 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 1: book called re Architecting Trust, which is a really cool 531 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: book you should check out, talking about the ciclality, cyclicality 532 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: of trust, UM and looking at through the lens of 533 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: the financial system, which is pretty cool. Adjunct professor at 534 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 1: Columbia Business School. Now, Omen, before the break, I kind 535 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 1: of cut you off. I'd posed a question and then 536 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: cut it off. So I'll just reask the question again, 537 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: which is um. When it comes to money and business 538 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: and all these things, we need trust, and so UM 539 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: defy to me, UM, at least in the current state 540 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: we have today, doesn't really seem very practical. Maybe almost 541 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 1: sort of a scam um not using that word lightly. 542 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 1: But when I think it's one thing, but I get 543 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: something different back, and so UM defy this decentralized finance. 544 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: I'm putting money in these protocols, but I don't know 545 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: who's getting them. I don't know what the risk level 546 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: is and so it seems to actually work against trust. 547 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: I would only want to invest into somebody's business or 548 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: loan them money to buy something if I had trust 549 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: with them, because I've done due diligence, I knew them, etcetera. 550 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: So how do you reconcile those two things? Well, do 551 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: you have a bank account? Yep? Okay, So when you 552 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: have a bank account, you are lending money to a 553 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: whole bunch of other people that you don't know. Well, 554 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: I'm not really because, um one, that's not really how 555 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: the bank works anymore, and the old fractional reserve system 556 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,080 Speaker 1: it did. But um I have insurance against all the 557 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:01,959 Speaker 1: money in my bank count So if they if they 558 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: did something and lost my money, I have insurance on 559 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: that money. Yeah, the lack of fd I C insurance 560 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: is a I think that's a valid complaint against defile. However, 561 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting to ponder the social and economic 562 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: consequences of things like FDIC insurance, particularly when it comes 563 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: to banks doing stupid things with people's money because people 564 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: don't care anymore. But nevertheless, the problem that you spelled 565 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: out is it's always been a problem, right, Like, there 566 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: are people who want to lend and there are people 567 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: who want to borrow. That's just the state of humanity. 568 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: And if they only limited themselves to those who they 569 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: strictly knew, then they would just be a lot less 570 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: credit in the economy. So historically, what we've done is 571 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: we put a bank in the middle. Uh. There are 572 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: different models of banking, but one of the roles that 573 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: the bank plays is to solve this problem of a 574 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: coincidence of want and trust, right, like me and a 575 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: borrower have to want to borrow and lend at the 576 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: same time and trust at the same time. The bank 577 00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: solved that problem, which I think is actually an im 578 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: thing for the economy. There will be a lot less 579 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: economic growth if we had a lot less credit. The 580 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: problem is the state of banking as it's been for centuries, 581 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: which is that one it's completely opaque. I don't know 582 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: what's happening inside a bank. You know, there's been things 583 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: that happened when it turns out nobody knew. Even the 584 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: CEO didn't know what was happening inside the bank. And 585 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: to a lot of what should be a automated transaction 586 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 1: is still left up to someone's discretion, right, So it's 587 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: something like, Hey, if somebody is buying a house worth 588 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: five thousand dollars, don't lend them a million dollars, only 589 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: lend them up to that for example. Um So, the 590 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 1: reason why I think defy is important from a trust 591 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: building perspective, particularly when it comes to financial services, is 592 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: that it takes the flaws of the banking system as 593 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: we have it and address it with the same kind 594 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: of features that makes something like bitcoin special, mainly transparency, consensus, automation. 595 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: I don't in that example that you've given, though, I 596 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: don't know if um, like, it's still going to require 597 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 1: some it's more of like a c FI model, which 598 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: was kind of like the Celsius kind of block Fire 599 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: model in a sense where they do automate a lot 600 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: of stuff supposedly, but like somebody was still kind of 601 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: going behind the scenes. Now, if they had more transparency, 602 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: maybe it wouldn't have ended it so badly for them. 603 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: But in that in that example, if somebody wants to 604 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: loan a house, buy a house, get a loan for 605 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: a house, Um, how do we know that house is 606 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: valued at five thousand and not a million? To your point, 607 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 1: So then we have to use an oracle so an 608 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: oracle has to be tied in with a local agent. 609 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: So then now I'm trusting that local agent to be 610 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 1: that oracle. So that's a central entity. It's not it's 611 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: not truly decentralized because now there's a central person that's 612 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: making that decision. So it's kind of like a we're 613 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: using software to offload a bunch of stuff and automate 614 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: a lot of things, which gives us efficiencies and hopefully 615 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: gives us greater returns, but it's not truly decentralized because 616 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: somebody's they're making those decisions and inputting that data. Right. Yeah, 617 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: as I always tell my students, to me, decentralization is 618 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: not binary. It is a spectrum. And there are things 619 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: that are very decentralized, like I consider bitcoin very decentralized 620 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: right now, which is part of its charm and appeal. Um. 621 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:13,479 Speaker 1: But then decentralization also has its limitations as far as 622 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: adopting something, upgrading it, evolving it over time. Um. So 623 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: most other crypto applications do involve trade offs from the 624 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: pure decentralization model. But to me, again that's not the 625 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: most important comparison. The most important comparison is what do 626 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: I trust more properly designed defied protocol or a bank, 627 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: And the answer is the defied protocol, which, by the way, 628 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: I think in the future there's already a bank in 629 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: Philadelphia that's sourcing wholesale funding from a defied protocol. So 630 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: I think in the future it's going to be a 631 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: sort of a conversion of the two and not necessarily 632 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: a replacement. Yeah, I would, I would agree on that. 633 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously to your point that the solving the 634 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: need and want we have you know, peer to peer 635 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: blending mark it's for example, and those have grown really big, 636 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: and those serve a good need. Um, you know, somebody 637 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: is using technology to kind of compress and automate that. 638 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: There's greater returns and so, um, there's some efficiencies there. 639 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: I guess for me, I would just say not everything 640 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: needs to be decentralized. I just I feel like not 641 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: everything needs to be decentralized. Um. One thing that does 642 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: is money, because if we if we give it to 643 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: somebody to control. We know, to your point, trust to cyclical, 644 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: and so if someone has control over money, we've been 645 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: we found out through millennia that they're always going to 646 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: try to distort that in some way, whether that's clipping coins, 647 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: or that's issuing more paper to certificates on top of it, 648 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: or whatever it may be. So one thing that does 649 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: need to be decentralized is money for sure. Um, back 650 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: to kind of what we started talking about, UM, some 651 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: of these communication protocols like that might might need to 652 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: be as well. Kind of a thing. Right, money is communication, right, 653 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: So money communicates our wants and our needs and our desires. Right. 654 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: So money is communicate sation. So that's where like this 655 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: whole Tornado cash going back to where we started to 656 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: get so messy, and again understand that technology is going 657 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: to become so much bigger than we understand it. Um, 658 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,839 Speaker 1: they're really since they can say they're not, but they're 659 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: censoring communication. And I believe that the Supreme Court has 660 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: already upheld that three or four times. I'm not a 661 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: legal expert. I hope they have. But I like the 662 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: idea very much that money, money is a form of 663 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: personal expression, um, which here in the West we really treasure. 664 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: So it's funny to me that increasingly in the financial domain, UM, 665 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: because of all of these different laws that are supposedly 666 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: designed to catch crooks, they keep limiting every individual's right 667 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: to personal expression with their money. Yeah, exactly. I was 668 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: just trying to look that up. I know I covered 669 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: that before. I believe it was three or four different 670 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: court cases where it's already been challenged and the courts 671 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: held that up. You know, Uh, code is speech, code 672 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: is communication. Money is communication. I had it up here, 673 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 1: but I can't I can't seem to find it real quickly. 674 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's gonna it's gonna be interesting. But again 675 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: back to you kind of where we started too and 676 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: then being able to actually censor a public good. So 677 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: now again back to the highway. Should well, it looks 678 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 1: like more criminals use this highway um than other highways, 679 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: so we should sensor that highway and just the precedents 680 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: that it's set. So in your opinion, I guess to 681 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: kind of put a bow in this. We gotta kind 682 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: of wrap it up here. Um. It's cyclical, and typically 683 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: it's some sort of technology that then brings the trust back. 684 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: I couldn't trust my handshaken deal before, so now we 685 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,760 Speaker 1: have the technology of a contract. So now I'll trust 686 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 1: again using that piece until that piece fails me and 687 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: then we'll have to come up with something new and 688 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 1: you think that is a bitcoin blockchain. Um, and that's 689 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: how we'll get trust. And am I summon that up right? Perfect? Yes? Yeah, 690 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: well I would agree, I would agree, and and and 691 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 1: and the more that we see it, I mean, there's 692 00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: the more inevitable it gets to me. Right, It's like, 693 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,839 Speaker 1: how do we how do we go forward without it? 694 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: Like I just I don't understand that we can go 695 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 1: back to the dark ages, but that nobody wants that either. Um, awesome, awesome. 696 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Um. Everyone check out the book re 697 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: architect Ing Trust that's been that's the author's my guest, 698 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,399 Speaker 1: Ohmed Mali Khan. You can find him on Twitter at 699 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 1: Mali Khan Olmes. He's uh, the author of that book, 700 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 1: re architect and Trust, the adjunct professor at Columbia BIZ. 701 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,280 Speaker 1: He's been talking a lot about the need for trust, 702 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: and I agree it is something really really big that 703 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: we all need to be aware of. And uh, man, 704 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: like I said, the more I think about it, the 705 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: more inevitable it seems to be. Um, we need a 706 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: decentralized letter nobody controls. That's what I got free today. 707 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to the Mark Moss Show. 708 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Hit us up on social media. Let's 709 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: know you heard this issue and that's what I got. 710 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: Until next time.