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Speaker 1: They try to warn us about Joe Biden.

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Speaker 2: Former Defense Secretary Robert Gates told us that he had

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Speaker 2: been wrong on nearly every foreign policy and national security

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Speaker 2: issue over the past four decades. Barack Obama said, don't

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Speaker 2: underestimate his ability to f things up. This interview that

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Speaker 2: we're about to do just really underscores those points. It's

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Speaker 2: a breakdown and an in depth interview, an investigation on

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Speaker 2: what exactly happened during the disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan. This

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Speaker 2: interview is going to make you sick to your stomach.

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Speaker 2: It's going to make you angry about that disgraceful chapter

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Speaker 2: in American history. We'll learned things like that suicide bombing

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Speaker 2: was avoidable, the fact that even after losing thirteen service members,

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Speaker 2: Marines were ordered to pick up human feces before they

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Speaker 2: were allowed to leave Kabble to help the Taliban. I'm

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Speaker 2: telling you you're not going to want to miss this conversation.

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Speaker 2: It's gut wrenching, but it's important. We're going to talk

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Speaker 2: to former Army Captain Jisan. He's a co author of

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Speaker 2: the new book Cobble, The Untold story of Biden's fiasco

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Speaker 2: and the American warriors who fought to the end.

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Speaker 1: He served this country.

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Speaker 2: He was an Afghanistan veteran, or he is an Afghanistan veteran,

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Speaker 2: and he co authored this book with Jared Dunlevy, who's

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Speaker 2: an investigative reporter who worked for the Washington Examiner. We're

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Speaker 2: going to get into all of it. You're not going

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Speaker 2: to want to miss this conversation. Stay tuned for James Haissan. James,

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Speaker 2: I know that you covered the disaster's withdrawal from Afghanistan

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Speaker 2: and your new book, which we're going to get into.

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Speaker 2: As you think back on what you wrote and what

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Speaker 2: you found out, what's the biggest lie that we've been

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Speaker 2: told about the withdrawal from Afghanistan?

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Speaker 3: Well, how much time do you have.

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Speaker 1: We've got as much time as you have.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if I can't I name just one,

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Speaker 3: but if you allow me to go through a couple.

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Speaker 3: The first was that it was entirely unforeseen that the

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Speaker 3: Afghan security forces would collapse. And I think that the

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Speaker 3: reason why this is important is that you know, if

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Speaker 3: the administration had just presented this choice to the American people,

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Speaker 3: if they just said, Hey, the entire state's going to go,

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Speaker 3: you know, to hell and the military is not gonna

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Speaker 3: be able to stay itself. But we've done twenty years.

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Speaker 3: It's time to go. I think that'd be a fair

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Speaker 3: choice to put to the American people, but instead they

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Speaker 3: engaged in this fiction. You know, President Biden in April

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Speaker 3: of twenty twenty one said that the Afghan military was,

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Speaker 3: you know, as well equipped as any Western military, which

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Speaker 3: is just patently untrue. And one of the things that

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Speaker 3: they did is they cited this figure that the Afghan

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Speaker 3: national security forces were three hundred thousand strong, and I

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Speaker 3: think at one point General Milly over the summer of

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty one increased that number to three hundred and

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Speaker 3: twenty five thousand. And the reason why that was just

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Speaker 3: a complete falsehood was that number one, there was a

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Speaker 3: very well known problem of what are called quote unquote

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Speaker 3: ghost units. They are Afghan military units that existed only

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Speaker 3: on paper, so that you know, the battalion commander or

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Speaker 3: something could pocket the salaries for those non existing soldiers.

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Speaker 3: That's one. But secondly, they also included in that figure

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Speaker 3: all of the Afghan local police, the border police, and

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Speaker 3: you know, these kind of smaller pair military units that

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Speaker 3: you know, we wouldn't say the American military is five

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Speaker 3: million strong because we're afcluding the police force from Peoria, Illinois.

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Speaker 3: But they went ahead and did that, and we spoke

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Speaker 3: to a few senior career CIA officials said that their

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Speaker 3: assessment was without American military support, without contractor or support

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Speaker 3: for all the things that we were enabling them to do,

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Speaker 3: the best case scenario was ninety days and the worst

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Speaker 3: case scenario was thirty days before the military collapse. And

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Speaker 3: one of the pernicious things about that is that the

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Speaker 3: administration kept painting this rosy picture that you know the

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Speaker 3: government was going to hold when all intelligence reports and

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Speaker 3: indicators said to the contrary. But what it did is

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Speaker 3: it gave a lot of Americans who were there, who

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Speaker 3: were working as aid workers, worked for places like the

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Speaker 3: World Bank, or even who were naturalized citizens who had

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Speaker 3: gone home to visit their families this false sense of

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Speaker 3: security that there was time and that they could get

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Speaker 3: out and then lo and behold. It kind of collapsed

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Speaker 3: overnight and they're stuck behind the Taliban, with the Taliban

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Speaker 3: standing between them and safety. But I think the second

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Speaker 3: thing is that the suicide bombing at Abby Gay on

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Speaker 3: August twenty sixth, which took the lives of thirteen Americans

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Speaker 3: wounded forty five more, some of them you know, permanently.

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Speaker 3: There's a fewal Marine who's now paralyzed starrying Tyler Vargus

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Speaker 3: Andrews has lost two limbs and also took the lives

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Speaker 3: of two hundred Afghan civilians. That that attack was not preventable,

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Speaker 3: and it's kind of almost a falsehood on multiple levels.

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Speaker 3: So first they the administration loves to cite the Pentagon

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Speaker 3: report and they quote it out of context and they say, look,

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Speaker 3: they said it wasn't preventable. This was just going to

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Speaker 3: happen no matter what. And then that's not actually what

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Speaker 3: the Pentagon report said. It said it was not quote

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Speaker 3: tactically preventable end quote. Given the all of the strategic

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Speaker 3: decisions that the Biden administ administration made, to include abandoning

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Speaker 3: Babram over the advice of military leaders, which we know

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Speaker 3: that the suicide bomber on the twenty sixth Albill Ramanell Lobery,

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Speaker 3: who the administration has refused even named to this day,

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Speaker 3: was in prison at you know, at Bagram when we

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Speaker 3: abandoned it, and he was freed by the Tali Dan

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Speaker 3: when they overran it on the fifteenth. So the idea

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Speaker 3: that just rid large this was just a baked in

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Speaker 3: cost he is completely a falsehood. But even even then,

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Speaker 3: I would say that there are some very serious questions

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Speaker 3: about the even the assessment that it was not tactically preventable.

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Speaker 3: And for one, that again assumes that tax we had

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Speaker 3: to rely on the Taliban for our security.

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Speaker 2: Ignoring the warnings. Was that a choice from this administration?

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Speaker 2: You know, why do you think they avoided the warnings

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Speaker 2: about a suicide bomber? What do you think was behind

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Speaker 2: the decision making of that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think they were fully aware of the fact

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Speaker 3: that there was a threat. Even it's remarkable President Biden

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Speaker 3: on August twenty fourth, even you know, spoke about the

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Speaker 3: threat to the airport from isis k from quote prisoners

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Speaker 3: who were released from from Barbara before and so there

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Speaker 3: were plenty It's clear that this was something that intelligence

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Speaker 3: had at Zion. But number one, they had already put

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Speaker 3: all of their their cards kind of on the table

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Speaker 3: in terms of the Taliban being quote business like and professional,

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Speaker 3: that's the term that they used, and our security partners,

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Speaker 3: and at that point they'd seated a whole lot of

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Speaker 3: a whole lot of ground, and they had no stomach

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Speaker 3: for any kind of confrontation with the Taliban whatsoever. In facts,

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Speaker 3: when we floated the idea of leaving after the thirty first,

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Speaker 3: the Taliban basically stated in no on certain terms. Well,

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Speaker 3: in that case is it's game on. And the administration

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Speaker 3: just folded and abandoned American citizens. But prior to that,

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Speaker 3: this was a political decision from day one. One of

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Speaker 3: the things that we report in Kabble is that our

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Speaker 3: book Cobble is that in Joe Biden's first week in office,

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Speaker 3: he asked his advisors how quickly can we get out

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Speaker 3: of Afghanistan. He didn't ask how can we do it safely?

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Speaker 3: How can we do it while getting American allies and

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Speaker 3: American citizens out? It was just how quick can we

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Speaker 3: get out? And where this really came into play it

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Speaker 3: was bob because he wanted no more than six hundred

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Speaker 3: troops in the country. And that's something that we verified

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Speaker 3: and or Is and now other people have also verified.

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Speaker 3: And you can't hold Bogram with six hundred troops. And

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Speaker 3: so the military was completing to be able to hold

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Speaker 3: Bograham and use that even as part of an evacuation

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Speaker 3: and they were overruled quite literally by Joe Biden himself.

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Speaker 3: And so it was a political decision, not a military.

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Speaker 2: Well, and that's interesting too, because you know, there's this

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Speaker 2: narrative sometimes from the right about Joe Biden because of

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Speaker 2: his age, because of his his uh, you know, clear

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Speaker 2: cognitive issues that are going on, that somehow he's just

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Speaker 2: a puppet for people, you know, other people, powerful forces

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Speaker 2: behind him.

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Speaker 1: You know, what do we know?

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Speaker 2: You know, you just talked about his decision making, and

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Speaker 2: you know what do we know about his decision making

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Speaker 2: and all of this and Joe Biden driving all of this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's a great question. Glad he asked it,

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Speaker 3: because you know, there there are a lot of, you know,

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Speaker 3: questions and concerns being raised about how much the president

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Speaker 3: is in control of the White House and how much

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Speaker 3: he's making the actual decisions. And I think in a

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Speaker 3: lot of circumstances those are fair questions to raise. But here,

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Speaker 3: as we lay out in Cobble, this was Joe Biden

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Speaker 3: from start to finish. And so if you allow me,

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Speaker 3: I can give you kind of three different examples. First,

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Speaker 3: it's entirely consistent with who Joe Biden has always been

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Speaker 3: from a foreign policy perspective. And when I say that,

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Speaker 3: I mean one thing that we detail in the first

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Speaker 3: chapter of the book is just to go through how

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Speaker 3: he's been wrong about every single thing, you know, in

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Speaker 3: the words of Bob Gates, for forty years. But when

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Speaker 3: Vietnam was collapsing and Biden was trying to make his mark,

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Speaker 3: it was too late to be an anti war senator.

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Speaker 3: And so he made his mark in saying that we

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Speaker 3: shouldn't accept, in his words, we don't have a moral

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Speaker 3: obligation to one or one hundred and thousand and one

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Speaker 3: South Vietnamese allies who helped us. And so that's you know,

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Speaker 3: it's an eerie foreshadowing of four years later of how

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Speaker 3: he approached Afghanisan. But secondly, this is what he was

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Speaker 3: pushing for even when President Obama was office, and you know,

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Speaker 3: he was urging Obama to get out, and Obama, you know,

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Speaker 3: was kind of sided with the generals over Biden. But

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Speaker 3: at the time Richard Holbrook, who was the UN ambassador

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Speaker 3: for the Biden or for the Obama administration, raised the

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Speaker 3: issue of what about all of the women and children,

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Speaker 3: about the allies that who fought along beside us, and

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Speaker 3: Biden snapped screw that we got away with in Saigon,

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Speaker 3: didn't we And so in one sense is very consistent

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Speaker 3: with who Biden is and what he's always want it

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Speaker 3: to do. But then as president, you know, we have

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Speaker 3: people in the room that he was making these decisions,

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Speaker 3: and on top of that, he got very involved in

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Speaker 3: the first days after the collapse and directed the military

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Speaker 3: to quote unquote open the gates and to let as

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Speaker 3: many people in as possible because there was there are

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Speaker 3: a lot of pointed questions about the slow pace of

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Speaker 3: evacuations and what that did is it put Americans and

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Speaker 3: Afghan allies at the very back of the mobs were

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Speaker 3: at the gates, and so reason why and military officers

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Speaker 3: told the Pentagon in their investigation, that's a reason why

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Speaker 3: a lot of Americans were abandoned because it came straight

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Speaker 3: from the president that he was changing the criteria on

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Speaker 3: the fly.

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Speaker 2: And that of course makes his actions all that much

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Speaker 2: more dishonorable in the aftermath of all of this, with

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Speaker 2: him having been at the helm of all this decisions.

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Speaker 2: You know, we interviewed a gold star mom, Cheryl Rex

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Speaker 2: on the show, who lost her son, Marine Lance Corporal

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Speaker 2: Dylan Marolla, and he lied to her, you know, he

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Speaker 2: said that his son came home in an American flag

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Speaker 2: draped coffin, which of course that's not how his son

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Speaker 2: Bo died, who died of cancer. He checked his watch

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Speaker 2: during the dignified transfer, so you know, he turned his

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Speaker 2: back on America and during press conferences.

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Speaker 1: So you know, the fact that he was the.

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Speaker 2: One leading all of this and making all the decisions

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Speaker 2: makes all those interactions that much more dishonorable.

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Speaker 3: It absolutely does. My co author, Jerry Dunleavy, and I

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Speaker 3: had the just the absolute honor of talking to most

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Speaker 3: of those gold Star families. And I know Jerry, since

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Speaker 3: we published the book, is now working as the lead

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Speaker 3: investigator for the House Foreign Affairs Afghanistan Investigation, and so

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Speaker 3: he's talking to them, you know, even now on a

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Speaker 3: more frequent basis. But every single one that we spoke

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Speaker 3: to brought up that he checked his watch every time

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Speaker 3: a flag drip cost like casket came off off the

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Speaker 3: ramp of Dover, and that he told them all the

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Speaker 3: same thing about Bo. And even when one of the

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Speaker 3: other fathers of the Fallen Marines showed a picture of

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Speaker 3: his son and said, you remember the space. You need

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Speaker 3: to remember their stories. Biden just snapped back, I do

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Speaker 3: remember their stories. And to this day he continues to

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Speaker 3: just claim that it's a success, but he is never

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Speaker 3: once in public mentioned the names of the thirteen service

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Speaker 3: members who were killed as a direct result of the

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Speaker 3: decisions that he made. And it's just unconscionable as a

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Speaker 3: commander in chief.

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Speaker 2: To take a quick commercial break more from the disastrous

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Speaker 2: withdrawal from Afghanistan. Cheryl told me that, you know, she's

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Speaker 2: really having that. All the families are just having the

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Speaker 2: hardest time getting information from this administration that they're shielding behind.

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Speaker 1: Oh it's classified, this, that and the other.

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Speaker 2: You know, what do we know about what happened that day,

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Speaker 2: that day of the suicide bomber that led to the

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Speaker 2: death of her son as well as twelve other service members.

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Speaker 3: So what I can tell you is what we know

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Speaker 3: about the few days before that, and then also about

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Speaker 3: what we know leading you know on that morning of

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Speaker 3: the twenty six from Sergeant Tylers Andrews testimony and working backwards,

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Speaker 3: Sergeant Vargus Andrews was a marine sniper. You lost multiple

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Speaker 3: limbs in the bombing and was never interviewed by the Pentagon,

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Speaker 3: by the way, in their report. And he testified that

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Speaker 3: he get that there was a description of a potential

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Speaker 3: suicide bomber that went out a bald individual who was

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Speaker 3: a very closely cropped beard, wearing certain types of clothes,

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Speaker 3: carrying a certain type of bag, and that you know,

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Speaker 3: his sniper team spotted that that individual someone who matched

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Speaker 3: that description, called an Army Psychological Operations team up to

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Speaker 3: the sniper tower to get confirmation. The syops team confirmed

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Speaker 3: that the individual matched the description, and then his sniper team,

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Speaker 3: Reaper two, radioed the Rettalian commander, Lieutenant Colonel Brad Wadett,

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Speaker 3: and asked whether or not they had permission to take

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Speaker 3: a shot, and the response they got was I don't

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Speaker 3: have that authority to give you. And when they said, well, respectfully, sir,

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Speaker 3: who does, the answer was I don't know, but let

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Speaker 3: me try and find out. And then they never got

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Speaker 3: a response and the individual, you know, kind of melted

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Speaker 3: into the crowd later on, and you know, later that afternoon,

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Speaker 3: there was of course a suicide bombing that everyone knows about.

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Speaker 3: And I want to be pretty clear about one thing,

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Speaker 3: is that last week. General mackenzie stated that there was

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Speaker 3: no specific description of any individual given out and you

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Speaker 3: see he doesn't know, uh, you know, where Sergeant Fargus

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Speaker 3: Andrews would have come up with that, you know, testimony

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Speaker 3: essentially or that that no shape. But when you go

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Speaker 3: back into the witness interviews, the transcribed witness interviews that

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Speaker 3: the Pentagon conducted with all the service members on the ground,

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Speaker 3: there were several different individuals from different units who all

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Speaker 3: told basically the same story that Sergeant Fargus Andrews did

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Speaker 3: before he ever went public and while he was at

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Speaker 3: Walter Reed recovering from dozens of surgeries, and that you know,

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Speaker 3: maybe there was a disconnect between what sent COOM. You

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Speaker 3: know what the John McKenzie was the commander of Sencom

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Speaker 3: at the time, uh, what was filtered up to him

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Speaker 3: and what was getting down to the people on the ground.

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Speaker 3: But if that's the case, that's a huge problem all

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Speaker 3: on its own. But notably that that the Psychological Psychological

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Speaker 3: Operations Team told Pentagon investigators that they had gotten that

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Speaker 3: description directly from SENACA, which which I think is very interesting.

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Speaker 3: But working backwards, there were two things that we reported

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Speaker 3: in Kabble, which we, you know, indicated that if we

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Speaker 3: hadn't chosen to rely on the Taliban, that there could

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Speaker 3: have been opportunities two m potentially disrupt or prevent what happened.

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Speaker 3: So one of the things that we reported in Kabble

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Speaker 3: was that there were our book Kabble was that there

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Speaker 3: are two potential opportunities that to potentially disrupt or even

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Speaker 3: prevent the attack from happening if we hadn't been relying

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Speaker 3: on the Taliban for our security. And the first of

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Speaker 3: those is that on August twenty fourth, the military drew

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Speaker 3: up a potential air strike which is at what they

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Speaker 3: call targeting package for an isis K operative named Kabir Iedi.

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Speaker 3: He was in Nangar Province and he was a known

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Speaker 3: distributor of suicide vests and an attack planer and depending

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Speaker 3: on later said publicly that he had a rule in

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Speaker 3: them in the abbeygated. And what it appears for reading

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Speaker 3: through the sworn statements submitted by Zeer military officials who

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Speaker 3: were part of drawing up that that potential air strike

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Speaker 3: is that it was deemed infeasible by the commanders on

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Speaker 3: the ground because of the quote unquote negative response from

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Speaker 3: the talent. And what we also know is that General Dunnah,

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Speaker 3: who was in constant conversation with his Taliban counterpart outside

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Speaker 3: the gates. But crucially, the military executed what appears to

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Speaker 3: be that exact same targeting package according to this testimony,

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Speaker 3: on August twenty seventh, and then they killed this isis

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Speaker 3: K operative in Nanglehar, and they stated that doing so

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Speaker 3: prevented a follow on attack. The military officials Eden told

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Speaker 3: the Wall Street Journal that this operative kuld Be variety

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Speaker 3: was quote planning on another attack, and so it stands

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Speaker 3: to reason that if by striking him on the twenty

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Speaker 3: seventh prevented a follow on attack, there's some legitimate questions

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Speaker 3: about whether, had we struck him on the twenty fourth

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Speaker 3: and not been concerned about the negative reaction from the Taliban,

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Speaker 3: whether or not that could have been prevented. But secondly,

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Speaker 3: the other thing that we reported and General Mackenzie actually

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Speaker 3: appeared to confirm last week was that the military asked

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Speaker 3: the Taliban to raid suspected isis K locations in Kabble

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Speaker 3: prior to the bombing several of them, and that the

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Speaker 3: Taliban often refused to do so, and that again just

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Speaker 3: just drives home this fatal stupidity of relying on a

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Speaker 3: Taliban describing them as our security partners. And it's something

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Speaker 3: that the administration cannot admit because they're on record telling

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Speaker 3: the American people that the Taliban was businesslike and professional

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Speaker 3: and which, of course are many other examples of where

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Speaker 3: they weren't, and I can get to those in a bit.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, like history, you know, like common sense, you don't,

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Speaker 2: I guess you know, James, Yeah, it's like they're a

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Speaker 2: terrorist organization. I mean, you know, what do you what

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Speaker 2: do you expect?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: And that really all begs the question, James, you know,

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Speaker 2: why were we relying on the towelban? You know, why

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Speaker 2: were we relying on terrorists for the security of our

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Speaker 2: own people at our allies.

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Speaker 3: There's a pivotal meeting that happened on August fifteenth, when

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Speaker 3: when Kabble was falling. I would say there are two reasons. First,

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Speaker 3: just the overall lack of planning and failure to heed

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Speaker 3: any of the you know, lights blinking red coming from

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Speaker 3: Afghanistan from the administration. It was too preoccupied with COVID response.

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Speaker 3: It's it's domestic spending bills, all those kinds of things

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Speaker 3: to worry about Afghanistan much. So that's just kind of

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Speaker 3: an overarching factor. But secondly, on August fifteenth, General mackenzie

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Speaker 3: went and met with a Taliban commander named bard Our

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Speaker 3: in Doha, cutter and to try and work out a

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Speaker 3: solution because the Taliban were basically outside the gates and

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Speaker 3: reporting McKenzie himself. The Bardar offered to keep Taliban forces

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Speaker 3: outside the confines of Cobble, and Mackenzie basically said, no,

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Speaker 3: as long as you don't interfere with our evacuation, then

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Speaker 3: you know, we're not trying to fight you, essentially, And

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Speaker 3: it's actually since we came out of the books from

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Speaker 3: reported elsewhere that Bartur even turned to it to interpreter

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Speaker 3: and said that is he saying they won't attack us

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Speaker 3: if we come into Cobble, And so that you know,

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Speaker 3: in some ways that decision right then was was kind

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Speaker 3: of the original sin of a lot of what unfolded afterwards.

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Speaker 2: And it wasn't just relying on secure. I mean, we

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Speaker 2: kind of bowed down to them, it seemed. And you know,

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Speaker 2: I know that you guys reported that the Marines were

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Speaker 2: ordered to pick up human feces before they were allowed

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Speaker 2: to leave Kabble after we had lost thirteen service members.

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Speaker 2: You're already reeling and already have the fear of having

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Speaker 2: lost your teammates, and then you're ordered to pick up

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Speaker 2: human feces.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's.

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Speaker 2: Disgraceful, first of all, and then secondly, why would we

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Speaker 2: do that for the Taliban?

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Speaker 3: Maybe bobbles the mind and I have a hard time

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Speaker 3: giving you an answer for why we would do something

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Speaker 3: a logical answer for something so illogical. But the backstory

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Speaker 3: on that is essentially that when we were closing down,

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Speaker 3: the military gave each unit kind of a sector to

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Speaker 3: quote unquote demilitarize, basically to make sure that sensitive equipment

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Speaker 3: and things that were in that in that sector were

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Speaker 3: kind of disabled. Yeah. For example, the engineers poured concrete

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Speaker 3: over a various pieces of sensitive equipment. But the Marines

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Speaker 3: from h two to one second second Italian First Marines,

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Speaker 3: who had lost eleven of their fellow marines, you know,

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Speaker 3: for them, they they took that to its to its

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Speaker 3: very fullest, and they just destroyed everything because of course,

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Speaker 3: why are you leaving anything to the Telebanion. They had

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Speaker 3: the flipped over vehicles, they smash TVs, and they described

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Speaker 3: that to us as as basically a release. And the

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Speaker 3: day after when they were getting ready to depart, they

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Speaker 3: got the order to go ahead and clean up everything.

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Speaker 3: And based on what we know, the kind of the

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Speaker 3: senior most leadership at the airport just said that this

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Speaker 3: isn't how we leave an institution, you know, this isn't

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Speaker 3: we take care of equipment, we you know, blah blah

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Speaker 3: blah blah blah, which just shows the disconnect between the

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Speaker 3: people at the very top and the individual marines and

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Speaker 3: soldiers who were manning the gates, and uh, you know,

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Speaker 3: they all, to a man and woman, all the marines

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Speaker 3: told us, you know what, we're cleaning this place for

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Speaker 3: the Taliban. It's one thing you for doing a training

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Speaker 3: mission and there's another unit, American unit coming behind you.

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Speaker 3: It's another thing that the Taliban is literally taking your

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Speaker 3: base from you and you have to roll out the

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Speaker 3: red carpet. It makes it makes no sense. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: so they had to go ahead and unflip all those vehicles,

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Speaker 3: clean up trash, rotten food in this entire area where

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Speaker 3: people had been Afghan uh, you know, evacuees had been

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Speaker 3: defecating and all kinds of other things. That senior one

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Speaker 3: of the senior NCOs from the unit described to Pentagon

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Speaker 3: investigators that it was just filled with people who had

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Speaker 3: been defecating and doing quote other unspeakable things. And he

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Speaker 3: he said it was the most grading experience of his

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Speaker 3: military career. And it's just one more fact or incident

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Speaker 3: that the American people have never been told about this

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Speaker 3: whole withdrawal. And that's why Jerry and I wrote Kabble

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Speaker 3: is because the American people deserve to know the truth.

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Speaker 3: Number one and number two, we wanted to make sure

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Speaker 3: it never happened again.

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Speaker 2: Take a quick commercial break, and then more on the

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Speaker 2: disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan. And we did leave billions of

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Speaker 2: weapons behind to the Taliban and including Blackhawks. You know,

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Speaker 2: what do we know about the state of Afghanistan right now?

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Speaker 2: And do you think those weapons will be used against

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Speaker 2: us in the future.

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Speaker 3: Well, we do know for a fact that some of

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Speaker 3: them have made their way into places like Iran, some

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Speaker 3: of them have made their way into Pakistan. In fact,

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Speaker 3: the Pakistani government just five or six days ago alleged

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Speaker 3: that militant groups in Pakistan are now using American made

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Speaker 3: weapons to attack Pakistan. And Pakistan shares a large share

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Speaker 3: of you know, as a large share of blame for

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Speaker 3: failures in Afghanistans. So I don't feel particularly sympathetic to them,

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Speaker 3: but we do know that they're you know, they're they're

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Speaker 3: traveling far and wide on the black market, and almost

435
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 3: certainly they will be used in terrorist attacks. Again. But

436
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:27,719
Speaker 3: beyond the weapons, we left behind a significant number of

437
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 3: Afghan commandos who served alongside US Special Forces units, and

438
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 3: we were able to obtain documents that are now highly

439
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 3: classified showing that Iran in particular has been recruiting and

440
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 3: debriefing those commandos about things like how US Special Operations

441
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:56,239
Speaker 3: units plan for missions, what their capabilities are, how we

442
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 3: react in certain circumstances. And we also know that that

443
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 3: Russia was trying to recruit them to fight on behalf

444
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 3: of the Wagner Group in Ukraine. In fact, there were

445
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 3: Afghan passports found on the battlefield in Ukraine. So that

446
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 3: that's one of the things that we cover in the

447
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 3: final few chapters of Kable is that unlike all of

448
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 3: you know, the Americans, that the administration willfully left behind,

449
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 3: these these failures and these consequences are not going to

450
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 3: stay in cobble. They're going to be felt across the

451
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 3: region and across the world.

452
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 2: And it's not just what we we left behind either,

453
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 2: it's also what we've allowed to enter into the United States.

454
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 2: You know, there were reports at the time that the

455
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 2: government had handed out blank copies of visas in Afghanistan

456
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 2: meeting that we weren't just letting allies on those planes

457
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 2: that exited or you know planes. You know, in the

458
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 2: aftermath of it coming to the United States, you report

459
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 2: in your book that there were are more than sixty

460
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 2: five terrorists that have been allowed into the United States.

461
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit more about that, and then

462
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 2: you know how susceptible are do we to a terrorist

463
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 2: attack in the United States based on the people we've

464
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 2: allowed in?

465
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 3: I would say there probably that the security threats is

466
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 3: probably that it's the term the government used, and so

467
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 3: I'll stick with that. But that's it, you know it

468
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 3: six to one a half dozen of the other. Really,

469
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,719
Speaker 3: this this goes back to what I mentioned about President

470
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:29,719
Speaker 3: Biden change it panicking and changing the entry criteria on

471
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 3: the fly. And we actually obtained an email that the

472
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 3: State Department sent down after that call that President Biden

473
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 3: had with senior State Department officials, the US Ambassador to Afghanistan,

474
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 3: and General o' donaho, and we're Admiral Vassili, who was

475
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,959
Speaker 3: in charge of US Forces Afghanistan. And what we detail

476
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 3: is that they were very frustrated about the low numbers

477
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 3: they were getting pointed questions, and it's what they opted

478
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 3: to do was just juice their numbers by, instead of

479
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 3: focusing solely on US citizens and Afghan allies, to allow

480
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 3: any Afghan who appeared to be part of a family

481
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 3: unit or appeared to be quote at risk, and then

482
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 3: to air on the side of letting people l And

483
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 3: those are all directly from Joe Biden. Those were his directives.

484
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 3: And what that meant was that over the course of

485
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 3: about thirty six hours, you had tens of thousands of

486
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 3: people on the airfield, most of whom had no connection

487
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 3: to the US government or to the Afghan government and

488
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 3: hadn't been vetted at all. And in fact, the military

489
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 3: had to shut down evacuations for twenty four hours to

490
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 3: just deal with the overload. But what that meant by

491
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 3: bringing all kinds of unvetted people in was that only

492
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 3: after the fact, when they the National Round Intelligence Center

493
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 3: compared fingerprints taken from people and allowed into the country

494
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 3: against a Pentagon database of known security threats, did they

495
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 3: realize that there were Initially they found fifty and that

496
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 3: number has risen to sixty five individuals who the Pentagon

497
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 3: had flagged as security threats, and that included people's people

498
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 3: whose fingerprints have been found on diffused IED's in Afghanistan,

499
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 3: and that we have no way of tracking these individuals

500
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 3: now they're just in the country. And more to the point,

501
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 3: there are also plenty of people came here and I

502
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 3: wouldn't say the majority by any means, but a substantial

503
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 3: number who committed horrific crimes against children and women in

504
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 3: terms of abuse when they were on US military basins.

505
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 3: Because again, these weren't the people that we had vet it.

506
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 3: There were people that were brought in because the administration

507
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 3: wanted to be able to say, which now they have

508
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 3: done at nauseum, that it was the largest airlift in history.

509
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 2: So we've now ceded Afghanistan to terrorists while also allowing

510
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 2: these terrorists into the country where it would not be

511
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 2: that difficult for them to coordinate with the people back

512
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 2: in Afghanistan of how to coordinate an attack against the

513
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 2: United States within our own country.

514
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,239
Speaker 3: That's a pretty accurate way to say, Lisa sad as

515
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 3: it is.

516
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 2: I mean, this really is just a story of disgrace, right,

517
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know if I don't think there's

518
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 2: been a time as an American in my thirty eight

519
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 2: years where I have been more ashamed of my own government,

520
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 2: more shamed of my own country than what happened with

521
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: the withdrawal that led to so many people dying. And

522
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 2: then secondly, just a story of just utter incompetence, which

523
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 2: just baffles the mind of how people who are in

524
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 2: these positions could be so dumb, so disgraceful, and so incompetent.

525
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 2: You're a former Army captain or I guess you know,

526
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 2: once an Army captain, always an Army captain, and an

527
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 2: Afghanistan veteran.

528
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: Was it hard to write this book?

529
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, honestly it was. It was. It was pretty gut wrenching.

530
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 3: And when we started out writing it, Jerry and I

531
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 3: kind of thought that we had an idea about everything

532
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 3: that went on, and we realized that we even though

533
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 3: we were paying close attention and we were talking at

534
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 3: the time to people who were on the ground. I

535
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 3: was trying to help get friends interpreters out, and thank god,

536
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,800
Speaker 3: we got a good amount of them out. But you know,

537
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 3: we thought we knew and we didn't even know a

538
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 3: third of it. And yeah, some of the most difficult

539
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 3: things for me to hear. We're talking to these eighteen

540
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,879
Speaker 3: nineteen twenty twenty one year old mareens and soldiers who

541
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,879
Speaker 3: were at the gates and what they had to deal

542
00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:04,760
Speaker 3: with because I remember, you know, leading people that age,

543
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 3: and how they're they're they're all in and and they

544
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 3: do so well, trusting that the people above them have

545
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 3: their best interests in mind. And yeah, as as as

546
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 3: evidenced by this whole collapse, that wasn't the case. But

547
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 3: they saw it. I mean, they performed heroically. Honestly, this

548
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 3: was the average American at its very best and an

549
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 3: American government at its very worst. Uh. But but they

550
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 3: you know, they they saw things like babies being trampled

551
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 3: underfoot in the mob right in front of them. There

552
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 3: were women that were trying to throw their babies over

553
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 3: the razor wires so that they could at least their

554
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 3: babies could get out, and sometimes they uh, they didn't

555
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 3: throw them far off. So the babies landed in the

556
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 3: razor wire. Uh. There were the Taliban was beating Americans,

557
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 3: you know, and and Afghans and in some cases executing

558
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 3: Afghan allies in full view of these soldiers and marines.

559
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 3: And one thing that came up time and time again

560
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 3: during these hours and hours of conversations that I had

561
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 3: with these these soldiers and marines was the concept of

562
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:26,439
Speaker 3: moral trauma, in that you know, they're under the rules

563
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,919
Speaker 3: of engagement, they couldn't do anything, and yet they had

564
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 3: to just stand there and witness all this kind of

565
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 3: just horrific, all these horrific things, and at other times

566
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 3: tell people that they were allowed in or they weren't

567
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 3: allowed in, knowing that when they turned people away that

568
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 3: there was a good chance at the Taliban we're gonna

569
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 3: you know, kill them because they had tried to come

570
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 3: to the airport.

571
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 2: I mean, that just makes you you know, even as

572
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 2: you were just talking, I just felt stick to my

573
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 2: stomach just imagining these young men and women to have

574
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 2: to see all this and as you mentioned, to not

575
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 2: be able to do anything when they're sent there to

576
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 2: to serve and protect. So I can't imagine how difficult,

577
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 2: and I can't imagine how difficult to this day it's

578
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 2: got to be for the people to side. That's just

579
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 2: something you probably never forget in your entire life.

580
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 3: One of the things that they said was was just

581
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 3: solving the wounds. Was while they were dealing with this,

582
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 3: seeing news reports from from the White House describing the

583
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:25,320
Speaker 3: Taliban as you know, again quote business like and professional

584
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 3: and saying that they were letting people through when they

585
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 3: knew for a fact that that was not true.

586
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: You know.

587
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 2: And then of course they lied to us about the

588
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 2: aid worker that they droned and told us it was

589
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 2: you know, I think an isis guy and it was

590
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 2: an AID worker and his kids. So I mean, it's

591
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 2: just it's it's probably one of the more disgraceful chapters

592
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 2: in American history. You know, you had mentioned, you know,

593
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:50,959
Speaker 2: one of the objectives is that to write this book

594
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 2: so that it never happens again. What do you hope

595
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 2: the lesson is after writing this? You know, what do

596
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,280
Speaker 2: you hope we learn as a country, as a people?

597
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 2: What do you hope for government learns after writing this book?

598
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 3: I hope that the decisions that people like Secretary Blincoln made,

599
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 3: Secretary Austin made follow them for the rest of their careers,

600
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:18,720
Speaker 3: and that they dealt In a just world, they wouldn't

601
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:20,439
Speaker 3: be able to give a press conference without being asked

602
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 3: to justify that the things that they did. But on

603
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 3: a broader sense, you know, the first step to making

604
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 3: sure something doesn't happen again is for people to know

605
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 3: what happened. And the administration has no absolutely no intent

606
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 3: of holding anyone accountable. Number one, because that would have

607
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,800
Speaker 3: that would involve admitting that this was not a success

608
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,800
Speaker 3: as they have claimed. But two, telling the American people

609
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 3: the full story. And I think once people understand just

610
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 3: the scope and the magnitude of the failure, how preventable

611
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 3: it really was, and the human kind of suffering and

612
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 3: the consequences geoplitically even that that are flowing from this,

613
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,720
Speaker 3: that the administration will have to count for that, whether

614
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 3: that's you know, next November or sooner than that. And

615
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 3: we've we've been able to speak a lot with members

616
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 3: of Congress, and obviously Jerry Now after the Congressman read

617
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 3: our book, hired him to lead the investigation. So we're

618
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 3: going to just keep pressing to make sure that there

619
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 3: is a measure of accountability and kable at least you know,

620
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:36,760
Speaker 3: writing Kable at least for us was a start.

621
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 2: Well, James, I appreciate your service to this country. I

622
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 2: appreciate you co authoring this book Kabble, The Untold Story

623
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 2: of Biden's Fiasco and the American Warriors who Fought to

624
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 2: the End.

625
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 1: Everyone should go check it out.

626
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 2: Thank you for both your service and for putting in

627
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 2: the work to write this book and bring it to

628
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:53,800
Speaker 2: the American people.

629
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 3: Thanks so much, Lisa, I really appreciate you having me.

630
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 2: That was James Hastan, co author of Kavel, The Untold

631
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 2: Story of Biden's Fiasco and the American Warriors who Fought

632
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 2: to the End.

633
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:09,720
Speaker 1: I mean, wow, it's.

634
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 2: Infuriating to hear how this was all preventable, that those

635
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 2: thirteen lives were preventable. It's just disgraceful. But I appreciate

636
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 2: him for taking the time to join the show as

637
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 2: service to the country. Appreciate you guys at home for

638
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 2: listening every Monday and Thursday, but you can listen throughout

639
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 2: the week. What do I think John Cassio, my producer,

640
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 2: for putting the show together. Until next time,