WEBVTT - Part Two: The Cult Behind Josh Duggar 0:00:01.600 --> 0:00:06.440 What's blanket training my baby? Now, that's a horrible way 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.400 to introduce your show. Thank god Sophie's not here. We 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:12.520 have been talking. This is behind the Bastards podcast Bad People, 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:16.640 Part two dugger episodes about blanket training my cats. Um, 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:20.080 But it turns out cats are incapable of learning things. 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:22.840 That would have been a you know, a great slogan 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:26.840 for Godard n t. I would have been uh, training 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:29.400 your baby's We have the blanket answers. We have the 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:34.879 blanket answers. Yeah, blanket abusive. I don't know, there's not 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:41.839 great jokes to tell about. There's profoundly abusive cult Um. 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:45.680 Sean back again to finish our two part on the 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:52.199 duggers um and hopefully finish talking ship about Ted Wheeler. Um, 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:56.560 Who's who's who's bad? Mayor? Uh? And who got tear gassed? 0:00:56.880 --> 0:01:02.160 Uh for the fucking likes Um fucking baby. It was 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:04.640 a real baby about it. Like that's the that's the thing, 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:07.279 Like after having all of us tear gassed to helen 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:11.319 back for weeks, thousands of people his cops gassed. As 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:13.440 soon as it becomes a national anti Trump thing, the 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:16.039 motherfucker goes out to get like tear gassed once like 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:18.880 a big baby, and say like, oh, this shouldn't be done, 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:20.920 and then goes right back to tear gas and people. 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:25.080 His cops never stopped gassing people. I just anyway, Ted 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:29.160 Wheeler sucks. Go to Total Recall PDX to help recall him. 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:32.320 Um and and if anyone wants to start a band 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:34.640 that makes fun of Ted Wheeler, here's a good name 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:38.399 for you, tears for fear gassed. Oh that's a good one. 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:40.840 That's a good one. I would have gone with. Shit, 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:44.120 I don't actually have one in the chamber, Um Wheeler 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:46.800 in this guy, damn it. Okay, you're ahead of me 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:52.720 on this. Um guns and Ted's is now that's terra 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:58.440 guns and Rose Cities. God damn it. Okay, Well all right, yeah, 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:01.640 I'm gonna give up trying to trying to win this one. 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:05.040 So Sean, are you ready to learn a little bit 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:09.240 more about Josh Dugger? Oh yeah, I can still feel. Yeah, 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:14.040 we had a we'll deal with that little problem. So 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:16.920 in two thousand three, Josh Dougger returned home from the 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:19.959 treatment program UH run by a t I that he 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:23.239 even sent to because he molested two of his sisters. Um. Now, 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:25.520 It was at this point that his father, Jim Bob, 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:28.720 decided to involve law enforcement, likely as a matter of 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:31.080 self protection. If this ever came out in the future, 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:32.400 he'd want to be able to say that he went 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:35.079 to the cops when it first started. The cop they 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:37.320 picked was a state trooper who was a friend of 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:41.440 the Dugger family. Joshua confessed, and the trooper presumably told him, 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:46.079 don't do it again. Now, there's a federal law that 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:49.360 says that people who are like cops and teachers are 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:53.079 what are called mandatory reporters. This means that if a 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:55.960 child or anyone really reports child abuse to you, you 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:59.560 have to report it to somebody like like somebody else 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:01.720 in You have to escalate it up basically, like you 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:04.720 can't just be like, yeah, it sounds fucked up, um, 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:07.079 like it's you're committing a crime if you don't then 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:09.000 go on to report it. This is the case for teachers, 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:11.359 it's the case is it for health pare I was 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:13.160 gonna say, it's like did to even go like to 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:16.080 to see, like how basic of a protect the children 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:18.679 thing is. When we get an amber alert in the hospital, 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:22.080 everyone that's an employee drops what they're doing and goes 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:25.240 to doorways to make sure like if someone you know, 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:28.960 if like someone's trying to escape, like maybe the kid 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:31.480 wander off, maybe someone like tried to steal a baby. 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:36.839 That happens, Um you yeah, you there. I mean there's 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:38.480 there's new stories that come up every now and then, 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:40.960 like someone gets like either grief or they're having mental issues, 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:42.520 and so they go and they try to get a baby. 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:46.840 Um and yeah. So but basically everyone has to drop 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:49.160 what they're doing and go by like a public doorway 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:51.680 check everyone that goes by, like you got a backpack, 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:54.200 you got about you gotta make sure like in that Again, 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:58.280 that's that's if we're not working directly we don't work 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:00.720 directly with kids or not. Everyone is like I don't 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:03.160 from doing any cleaning and stuff like that. But that's 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:07.960 like everyone stopped. There's there's a child safety thing going on. Yeah, 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:10.400 I mean that makes Yeah. So this is again as 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:12.720 you're saying, like, this is a really basic and very 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:15.520 like you are supposed to if you are a mandatory reporter, 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:17.840 take this very seriously. You can go to fucking prison 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:21.919 if you don't take it seriously. It's a big deal. Um, 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:24.480 the state trooper did not report this to anybody, didn't 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:27.640 didn't tell a soul. Uh, And the decision of a 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:29.960 lawman to break the law in order to protect a 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.320 child molester may seem confusing if you don't know much 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:36.560 about the cop in question. This is this is supposed 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:38.839 to be one of those things, even all of my 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:42.400 issues with the police, as a general rule, most people 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:44.800 are like, well, but child molesters, Like, we can all 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:47.680 agree for those people, right, Like, it's supposed to be 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:52.080 a thing that even very wildly opposed people are like, well, yeah, 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:54.599 like we were all on the same page about this 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:58.640 this issue, right, Um, not in this case, So he's 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:01.400 more of a mentor in this a smart lem mentor 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:05.400 in this case. In two thousand seven, four years after 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:09.839 his conversation with Josh Dougger, officer Joseph Hutchins pled guilty 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:13.760 to eight felony counts of quote possessing visual or print 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:18.280 medium depicting sexually explicit conduct involving a child. He was 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:21.880 sentenced to five years in prison and served three. Hutchins 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:24.760 was released from prison on good behavior in two thousand ten, 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:27.479 and then, while still on parole, he was arrested again 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:30.719 and charged with four counts of distribution, possession or viewing 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:34.920 of sexually explicit material involving a child. He was resentenced 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:37.400 to fifty six years in prison, where he is now 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:40.360 and will probably die because even cop privilege has his limits. 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:42.440 They did try to let him out after three years, 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:45.159 but that's I mean, that's his cruel. Fifty six you know, 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:48.080 one more one more year could have gotten that Hinz deal, 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:52.000 could have gotten that sponsorship. Heinz Hines is very big 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:56.000 and sponsoring child you don't really you got a fifty 0:05:56.040 --> 0:06:00.720 seven in front of anything and some money Scott them 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:04.080 in trouble a lot. It's you know, they should have 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:10.719 rethought that idea in hindsight. So from two thousand five on, 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:15.039 the Duggers grew increasingly popular and relevant. The wild success 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:17.599 of their and Counting because they changed the name. You know, 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:20.080 a lot of more kids is like whatever, and Counting 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:23.800 shows We're just gonna call it and Counting, Yeah they were. 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:27.359 This made them the single most popular public ministry for 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:31.120 the quiver Full movement. They were never identified as being 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:34.880 part of such a movement on air. Of course, Josh 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:37.200 Dugger and continued to be a major part of the 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:39.960 show because again, nobody knew that he had done this 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:42.719 right outside of this small circle. His marriage was the 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:45.919 focus of a special very dugg Er wedding episode. The 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:49.119 births of his three children were also covered. Now, while 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:52.440 the family was successful in covering up Josh's crimes, the 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:56.360 crimes themselves continued. He molested at least three other miners 0:06:56.360 --> 0:07:00.320 a total of five victims UM during the early aughts UM, 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:02.880 and four of them were his sisters. One of them 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:04.800 was a baby sister we'll talk more about this was 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:06.839 a babysitter. We'll talk more about this later. But he 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:10.600 has at least five child victims UM. While the truth 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:13.600 about Josh did not become widely known for years, there was, however, 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:16.280 evidence of it if you knew where to look. In 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:19.440 two thousand six, Oprah Winfrey booked Jim, Bob and Michelle 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.520 Dugger on her show. The whole family was flown to Chicago, 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:24.760 taken out for expensive meals, and put up in hotels 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:27.200 at Oprah's expenses the way Opra Obviously, that's the way 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:30.080 the show works. The episode never aired, and as best 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:32.320 as I can determine, it seems that someone close to 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:35.760 the family found out Josh's secret. There are claims and 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:37.200 it's kind of weirdo we I don't think we know 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:40.240 exactly what happens, but like some family member like wrote 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:42.360 or someone close to family wrote about what had happened 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:43.960 on a note and like put it in a book, 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:47.240 and someone else who was I think an associate found 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:50.280 the book, a woman in her sixties. This person wrote 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:54.360 a letter to Oprah saying like, hey, don't have these 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:59.360 people on your show. Their kids a child molester. I 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:02.960 love the John of God episode. You know, it's one 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:07.360 of those things, um point nine percent of the time 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:09.040 when Oprah comes up on one of these shows, we're 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:12.760 being very negative towards her fact checking. This is not 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:16.200 that kind of story. Oprah does exactly the right thing 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:19.200 in this situation, which is not a thing that happens often. 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:21.560 But I will give credit where it's due here. They 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:25.240 handle it right. So, because obviously Oprah has an effectively 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:27.760 infinite pile of money, she set a team of people 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:30.840 into investigating the manner and again a fairly rare example 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:34.080 of journalistic integrity for the Oprah Winfrey Show. They seem 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:37.360 to have found some comments online repeating the allegations. Whenever 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:40.959 they dug up concerned Oprah enough that she it seems 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:43.800 that she reported them to the Arkansas State Police Child 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:47.400 Protection Agency and the Washington County Child Protection Agency. She 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:49.679 didn't just this. The episodes never aired. She did just 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:53.439 cancel the episodes, but it seems that she reported the duggers, 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:57.240 which is the right thing to do. Um. That's always 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:59.640 like the heartbreaking thing for me with Oprah. It's like 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:02.679 she's the stand in for the gullibility of America. They 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:04.920 just I just wanted to be true. This sounds so good. 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:07.120 I want to feel good about it, and then it 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:10.760 just stuff spins out or she's like, oh, the more 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:13.480 she follows through, it's like she did this time and 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:20.600 again she's helped enable molesters and other situations unfortunately, but 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:22.800 this time she did. She did everything right as far 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:24.400 as I can tell. As far as we know, she 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:28.280 did everything right. Um, that didn't matter as much as 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:30.320 it should. Perhaps we can argue maybe there was more 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:32.680 than could have, but she she took them off her show, 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:35.200 and she reported them to the law, to law enforcement 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:37.800 as far as we can tell. Uh. The official police 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:40.240 report that we've quoted from was filed in December of 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:42.160 two thousand six. So it does seem likely that she 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:45.160 reported them and there was an official police report, right 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:48.840 um now, if so, if if this is how it 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:50.760 actually went, Because all of this is a little murky, 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:54.120 Oprah gets kudos for being more critical of the Dugger's 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:57.720 image than any other mainstream media organ Nobody else really 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:01.640 devoted that much of a critical eye to them. And again, 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:04.360 I'm going to be a fair man here now. In 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:07.360 more recent years, once all this blew up, Gawker did 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:10.040 a deep dive to see what allegations they could find 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:12.920 online about Josh Dugget that might have been floating around 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:16.000 when the Duggers were supposed to be on Oprah. The 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:19.120 earliest comment they found seems to have come from a 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:22.839 commenter on a two thousand five blog called in the 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:26.200 commentary was the name she used was concerned Mom, and 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:29.360 this blog alleges misconduct by the anonymous son of a 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:33.520 political man at her church. Quote a few years ago, 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:35.440 the men of the church were meeting after church to 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:38.559 discuss my friends teenage daughter's apparel. They felt like their 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:40.839 blouses were too tight and they should bind their chests 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:43.360 up more go figure. At the same time, the son 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:45.200 of one of these political men was touching one of 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:48.240 my friends teenage daughters in a sexual way as she slept. 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:50.880 This was found out and apologies were made. Although the 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.760 boy was tempted by the girl's tight blouse. The boy 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.160 was sent to one of the training centers to be punished. 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:58.199 My friends did not return to the home church for 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:00.680 quite some time after this. At the same time, the 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:03.679 boy mentioned earlier was betrothed to a girl in the group. 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:06.760 Both were fourteen at the time. The betrothal was broken 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:09.440 up by the boy's actions. Just this last year, the 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:11.680 family of the young man mentioned before was highlighted on 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.440 the Discovery Channel. At the time, they had fourteen children, 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:16.480 were about to have another, and the mom was receiving 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:18.959 a Mother of the Year award from our governor. Since 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:21.040 that time, the same boy was betrothed again to the 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:23.680 same girl. He was working very hard on a campaign 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:26.240 for U S Senate for the girl's father. The father 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:29.720 lost the campaign. He immediately began looking for sin in 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:32.520 the camp as that could be the only explanation for 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:35.840 the loss. He found out that the young man betrothed 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:38.240 to his daughter had committed sexual sins while on the 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:41.080 campaign trail. The young man now sixteen, was made to 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:43.000 stand in front of the church and confess his sin. 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:46.600 So again she doesn't name the Duggers, but it's there's 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:48.800 the only family with the Discovery show. And there was 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:52.160 another memory. Jim Holt was his name, who was running 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:55.120 for office and in Josh, because they wanted Josh to 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:59.520 in politics, worked on the campaign. The campaign didn't go well, 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:01.680 and they aimed it on the fact that everyone knew 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:04.160 he was a fucking molester. And it only became a 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:07.640 problem when another man in the church couldn't didn't win election, 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:09.400 because then they had to start looking for We'll talk 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:13.800 about more the scriptural justifications for this, but basically there 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:16.559 was sin in the camp and that's that's when he 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:19.640 became an actual problem for them, that he was molesting kids. 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:22.720 Typical guy getting mad at someone else when he couldn't 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:27.360 get his election up. Am I right? That's that's that's 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:29.000 That was a rough one. I'm not gonna lie to 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:32.960 a show. That was a rough one. Now in order 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:38.360 to understand why this fact, after again molesting kids not 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:43.120 a big punishment, sending in a way that lost a 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:46.400 political election to another prominent man in the church, that 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:49.640 got him a significant punishment. In order to understand why 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:53.319 there's that kind of discrepancy, why molesting kids does not 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:55.760 earn you much of a punishment in this community, you 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:58.360 have to understand what the Institute for Basic Life Principles 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:01.600 calls the umbrella of action. I'm going to quote from 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:04.920 their own stupid website here. God given authorities can be 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:08.559 considered umbrellas of protection. By honoring and submitting to authorities, 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:12.319 you will receive the privileges of their protection, direction, and accountability. 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:14.760 If you resist their instructions and move out from their 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:18.240 jurisdictional care, you forfeit your place under their protection and 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:22.079 face life's challenges and temptations on your own. The institute 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:25.840 goes on to state, under the overarching umbrella of his protection, 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:31.240 God has established significant jurisdictional structures family husbands and parents, 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:35.839 government leaders, church leaders, elders and other believers, and employers. 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:38.880 There's a lot to talk about like with that that's 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.880 not great. So the way this works in practice is 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:44.000 that if anything goes wrong in a child's life or 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:47.160 with uh, you know, someone's wife, it is because they 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:51.880 were not properly submitting to authority and thus lost Godly protection, 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:55.199 the protection of God's umbrella. Likewise, the reason Jim, or 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:57.840 the reason this this other member of the church's campaign 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:00.480 political campaign failed isn't that he was a bad candidate. 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:03.920 It was that Josh Dugger sinned and opened up a 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:07.880 hole in the umbrella that let satan it. Basically, that's 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:12.280 the that's that's the idea here. This not repeatedly molestic. Well, 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:16.199 this was caused by molesting his sisters, but the fact 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:19.440 that it it damaged the umbrella protection is why he 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:23.200 got punished, right, That's what was actually bad about this. Now, 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:27.200 the reason for this involves a few different factors. One, 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:31.000 as I elaborated on earlier, is that men's sexual misdeeds 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:33.720 are seen as fundamentally rooted in the behavior of the 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:36.760 women they assault or molest. That's pretty fucked up. But 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:39.760 the other factor here is arguably even worse. Under the 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:43.200 fundamentalist doctrine the Duggers follow the Gospel of Bill Gothard, 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:48.120 all sexuality outside of procreative marital sex is a sin. Again, 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:50.480 quiver Full kids aren't allowed to date. They engage in 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:53.800 something called courtship, which has very frustrating rules and under 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:56.440 which if you're like holding hands before marriage, that is 0:14:56.920 --> 0:15:00.080 not okay. That's that is a serious sin and in 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:04.400 fact is a sin on the same level as what 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:08.080 Josh Duggar did to his his his siblings. Now every 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:12.680 interaction prior to marriage between male and female must be 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:17.000 carefully chaperoned. Healthy exploration is not seen as something that exists. 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:19.720 And when all sex and even like hand holding is 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:23.600 equally taboo, when masturbation is the same as child molestation, 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:26.440 there's no reason to punish a young man who molests 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:28.120 his sisters more than a young man who finds a 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:30.560 playboy in the woods, because the sin is the same, 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:36.040 which is not great, not great. I mean it's kind 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:39.760 of like how when you you attach these like draconian 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:44.360 penalties to possession of large amounts of illegal drugs, there 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:46.560 are people who be like, well, why shouldn't I just 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:49.120 kill the cop or something who's trying to arrest me, 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:51.120 Like it's a life in prison either way, I might 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:53.200 as well try to get away, you know, Like it's 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:56.000 this if you if you treat I don't know, it's 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:58.960 it's not great, it doesn't work well. Ever, when you 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:02.280 you do well, it's and in the specific way and 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:05.720 what you've seen from the episodes is it creates an 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:09.600 extremes on two ends where one because everything is under 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:12.120 the umbrella of sin, under of just like this just 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:16.800 general sin outside of marriage, things that are super fucked up, 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:25.160 like molestation get uh the severity gets not treated seriously 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:30.840 and the stuff like holding hands gets treated way too seriously. 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:34.520 And so then you get those those uh, those kind 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:39.160 of extremes where you have Josh Dougger molesting people and 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:42.760 possibly that that guy in Atlanta shooting up a spa. 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:45.920 It comes from that saying it's it's one of those 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:49.160 like kind of a total lack of proportion to lack 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.200 of proportion. It's like throwing a bouncy ball into an 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:53.360 empty room, you don't know where it's going to end 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:58.080 up hitting. Yeah, that's exactly right. Um. Now, repeated studies 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:01.760 have found that abstinence only a approaches to sex education 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:04.919 um and again, these are generally way less restrictive than 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:07.960 quiverful sex. Just absence only is not the same as 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:11.200 quiver ful sex said, but repeated studies have found that 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:15.520 this attitude towards sex just absence only programs do not 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:18.439 decrease sexual behaviors among kids, but do cause kids to 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:21.320 engage in riskier sex because they lack the education to 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:24.280 do it safely. It also robs kids of the vocabulary 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:27.440 they need to adequately explain when something unacceptable has happened 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:29.840 or been done to them. In her book A Love 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:33.000 That Multiplies, Michelle Dugger gives a story that her husband 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:35.880 tells to their kids to explain the importance of purity. 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:38.320 From this, we can get an idea of the kind 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:41.520 of sex said that the Dugger kids, both perpetrator Josh 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:45.760 and his victims benefited from. This is Michelle Dugger's writing, 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:50.919 So buckle in for some pros. Imagine that your parents 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:52.760 are going to surprise you and give you a brand 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:55.440 new bike for Christmas. Two weeks before Christmas, they buy 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:57.240 your bike and hide it in the storage shed in 0:17:57.280 --> 0:17:59.800 the backyard. But then the boy next door sneaks into 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:02.160 the d and borrows your new bike. He stunt rides 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:04.560 it up and down the back alley. On Christmas morning, 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:06.240 your parents lead you out to the shed to reveal 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:08.320 the special gift they bought for you. And as they 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:10.880 opened the door and say surprised, they're just as surprised 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:12.720 as you are. You're all shocked to see that the 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:14.800 bike looks like it's been thrown off a cliff. The 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:16.960 front fender is missing and the front tire is warped 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:19.359 so it rubs on the frame. It's dirty, the paint 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:21.480 is all scratched and chipped, and the seat has a 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:23.320 big rip in it. It looks worse than something you 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:25.480 would have bought at a garage sale. I'm sure you 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:27.480 would still be grateful for the bike, and you would 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:29.399 have fun writing it, but it won't be in the 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:31.560 condition your parents had hoped and dreamed it would be 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:33.520 when you received it. You would miss out on the 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:35.280 a lot of and a lot of the enjoyment they 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:37.600 meant for you to have. In the same way, we 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:39.560 don't want any boy or girl to come and steal 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:46.120 your purity. Pros more like amateurs, am I right? Yeah, 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:48.399 because everyone will be an amateur because you don't know 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:51.120 anything when you're married. But also also it's a little 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:52.639 bit of shaming that. I mean some people are into 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:55.080 rip seats. I mean combo people are into rip seats. 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:57.680 Some people like you know, mud on the on the tires, 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:00.879 some people like don't need a fender. Um. It's also 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:05.119 you know, not great number one one of the weird 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:09.119 things about this is that for a community that like 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:13.399 attacks the secular world as being like obsessed with sex 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:18.600 and sexuality, they're completely reducing marriage to just fucking to 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:23.399 just virginity, right as opposed to just like, well, people 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:25.479 tend to meet and get married and like life has 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:27.399 already happened to them, and you kind of take the 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:29.320 person as they are and everything that's happened to them. 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:31.520 And that's part of if you're in love with someone, 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:34.479 what you love about them is the experiences they've had 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:36.240 in the person that's made them. This is saying like, no, 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:38.360 if they're used at all, they're not as good well, 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:41.119 and it's and it's a it's a warping of the 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:44.600 experience of a love because the you know, the the 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:47.080 the idea and the life experience and the joy of 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:49.480 love is that the more you give, the more you have. 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:51.600 And this is saying that, no, your love is a 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:54.479 finite thing and that any sort of usage of it 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:57.399 takes away from it. Like it's like Donald Trump and 0:19:57.440 --> 0:19:59.880 his I don't exercise because my body's a battery. It's 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:03.880 to run out. But yeah, what with love? But with 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:05.880 love and it's yeah, I mean there's a lot that's 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:08.479 wrong with it, including Nadia that like, well, it's actually 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:12.440 like if your parents got you a bike, but by 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:14.160 the time it was in the shed because it got 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:19.760 roaded so much, other kids came in and upgraded the bike. Uh, 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.400 and it was a much better bike because people had realized, oh, 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:24.560 you actually need these new wheels to like do a 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:26.399 better job of going up these hills. And I don't know, 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:28.960 we could. I don't want to continue making bike as 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:32.280 fucking metaphors, but you could. Well, you know, I mean, 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:37.320 that's it's something that's gonna happen. It's very cyclical, yeah, Jehan. 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:43.040 You know what else is cyclical? Uh? The rising of 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:48.040 the seventh moon on the planes of a distant planet 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:52.400 where presumably yeah, I mean unless it's like an elliptical lore, 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:55.040 but I guess yeah, I mean that's kind of But 0:20:55.280 --> 0:21:00.359 I was gonna say, what cyclical is capitalism because you 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:05.080 start with money, and money buys products, and products create 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:07.040 more money, and then you get more money to buy 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:10.119