1 00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: What's blanket training my baby? Now, that's a horrible way 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: to introduce your show. Thank god Sophie's not here. We 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: have been talking. This is behind the Bastards podcast Bad People, 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: Part two dugger episodes about blanket training my cats. Um, 5 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 1: But it turns out cats are incapable of learning things. 6 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: That would have been a you know, a great slogan 7 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: for Godard n t. I would have been uh, training 8 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: your baby's We have the blanket answers. We have the 9 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: blanket answers. Yeah, blanket abusive. I don't know, there's not 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: great jokes to tell about. There's profoundly abusive cult Um. 11 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: Sean back again to finish our two part on the 12 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 1: duggers um and hopefully finish talking ship about Ted Wheeler. Um, 13 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: Who's who's who's bad? Mayor? Uh? And who got tear gassed? 14 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: Uh for the fucking likes Um fucking baby. It was 15 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: a real baby about it. Like that's the that's the thing, 16 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,279 Speaker 1: Like after having all of us tear gassed to helen 17 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: back for weeks, thousands of people his cops gassed. As 18 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: soon as it becomes a national anti Trump thing, the 19 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: motherfucker goes out to get like tear gassed once like 20 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: a big baby, and say like, oh, this shouldn't be done, 21 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: and then goes right back to tear gas and people. 22 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: His cops never stopped gassing people. I just anyway, Ted 23 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: Wheeler sucks. Go to Total Recall PDX to help recall him. 24 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: Um and and if anyone wants to start a band 25 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: that makes fun of Ted Wheeler, here's a good name 26 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: for you, tears for fear gassed. Oh that's a good one. 27 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: That's a good one. I would have gone with. Shit, 28 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: I don't actually have one in the chamber, Um Wheeler 29 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: in this guy, damn it. Okay, you're ahead of me 30 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: on this. Um guns and Ted's is now that's terra 31 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: guns and Rose Cities. God damn it. Okay, Well all right, yeah, 32 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: I'm gonna give up trying to trying to win this one. 33 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: So Sean, are you ready to learn a little bit 34 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: more about Josh Dugger? Oh yeah, I can still feel. Yeah, 35 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: we had a we'll deal with that little problem. So 36 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: in two thousand three, Josh Dougger returned home from the 37 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 1: treatment program UH run by a t I that he 38 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 1: even sent to because he molested two of his sisters. Um. Now, 39 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: It was at this point that his father, Jim Bob, 40 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: decided to involve law enforcement, likely as a matter of 41 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: self protection. If this ever came out in the future, 42 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: he'd want to be able to say that he went 43 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 1: to the cops when it first started. The cop they 44 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: picked was a state trooper who was a friend of 45 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: the Dugger family. Joshua confessed, and the trooper presumably told him, 46 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 1: don't do it again. Now, there's a federal law that 47 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: says that people who are like cops and teachers are 48 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 1: what are called mandatory reporters. This means that if a 49 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: child or anyone really reports child abuse to you, you 50 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: have to report it to somebody like like somebody else 51 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: in You have to escalate it up basically, like you 52 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: can't just be like, yeah, it sounds fucked up, um, 53 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 1: like it's you're committing a crime if you don't then 54 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: go on to report it. This is the case for teachers, 55 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 1: it's the case is it for health pare I was 56 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: gonna say, it's like did to even go like to 57 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: to see, like how basic of a protect the children 58 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:18,679 Speaker 1: thing is. When we get an amber alert in the hospital, 59 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: everyone that's an employee drops what they're doing and goes 60 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: to doorways to make sure like if someone you know, 61 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: if like someone's trying to escape, like maybe the kid 62 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: wander off, maybe someone like tried to steal a baby. 63 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:36,839 Speaker 1: That happens, Um you yeah, you there. I mean there's 64 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: there's new stories that come up every now and then, 65 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: like someone gets like either grief or they're having mental issues, 66 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: and so they go and they try to get a baby. 67 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: Um and yeah. So but basically everyone has to drop 68 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: what they're doing and go by like a public doorway 69 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: check everyone that goes by, like you got a backpack, 70 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: you got about you gotta make sure like in that Again, 71 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: that's that's if we're not working directly we don't work 72 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: directly with kids or not. Everyone is like I don't 73 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: from doing any cleaning and stuff like that. But that's 74 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: like everyone stopped. There's there's a child safety thing going on. Yeah, 75 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: I mean that makes Yeah. So this is again as 76 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: you're saying, like, this is a really basic and very 77 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: like you are supposed to if you are a mandatory reporter, 78 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 1: take this very seriously. You can go to fucking prison 79 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: if you don't take it seriously. It's a big deal. Um, 80 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 1: the state trooper did not report this to anybody, didn't 81 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: didn't tell a soul. Uh, And the decision of a 82 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: lawman to break the law in order to protect a 83 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: child molester may seem confusing if you don't know much 84 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: about the cop in question. This is this is supposed 85 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 1: to be one of those things, even all of my 86 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: issues with the police, as a general rule, most people 87 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: are like, well, but child molesters, Like, we can all 88 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: agree for those people, right, Like, it's supposed to be 89 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: a thing that even very wildly opposed people are like, well, yeah, 90 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 1: like we were all on the same page about this 91 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: this issue, right, Um, not in this case, So he's 92 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: more of a mentor in this a smart lem mentor 93 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: in this case. In two thousand seven, four years after 94 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: his conversation with Josh Dougger, officer Joseph Hutchins pled guilty 95 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: to eight felony counts of quote possessing visual or print 96 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 1: medium depicting sexually explicit conduct involving a child. He was 97 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: sentenced to five years in prison and served three. Hutchins 98 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: was released from prison on good behavior in two thousand ten, 99 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 1: and then, while still on parole, he was arrested again 100 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: and charged with four counts of distribution, possession or viewing 101 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: of sexually explicit material involving a child. He was resentenced 102 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: to fifty six years in prison, where he is now 103 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: and will probably die because even cop privilege has his limits. 104 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: They did try to let him out after three years, 105 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 1: but that's I mean, that's his cruel. Fifty six you know, 106 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: one more one more year could have gotten that Hinz deal, 107 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: could have gotten that sponsorship. Heinz Hines is very big 108 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: and sponsoring child you don't really you got a fifty 109 00:05:56,040 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 1: seven in front of anything and some money Scott them 110 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: in trouble a lot. It's you know, they should have 111 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: rethought that idea in hindsight. So from two thousand five on, 112 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 1: the Duggers grew increasingly popular and relevant. The wild success 113 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 1: of their and Counting because they changed the name. You know, 114 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: a lot of more kids is like whatever, and Counting 115 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: shows We're just gonna call it and Counting, Yeah they were. 116 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 1: This made them the single most popular public ministry for 117 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: the quiver Full movement. They were never identified as being 118 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: part of such a movement on air. Of course, Josh 119 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: Dugger and continued to be a major part of the 120 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: show because again, nobody knew that he had done this 121 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: right outside of this small circle. His marriage was the 122 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: focus of a special very dugg Er wedding episode. The 123 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,119 Speaker 1: births of his three children were also covered. Now, while 124 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: the family was successful in covering up Josh's crimes, the 125 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: crimes themselves continued. He molested at least three other miners 126 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: a total of five victims UM during the early aughts UM, 127 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: and four of them were his sisters. One of them 128 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: was a baby sister we'll talk more about this was 129 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: a babysitter. We'll talk more about this later. But he 130 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: has at least five child victims UM. While the truth 131 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: about Josh did not become widely known for years, there was, however, 132 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: evidence of it if you knew where to look. In 133 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: two thousand six, Oprah Winfrey booked Jim, Bob and Michelle 134 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: Dugger on her show. The whole family was flown to Chicago, 135 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: taken out for expensive meals, and put up in hotels 136 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: at Oprah's expenses the way Opra Obviously, that's the way 137 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: the show works. The episode never aired, and as best 138 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: as I can determine, it seems that someone close to 139 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: the family found out Josh's secret. There are claims and 140 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: it's kind of weirdo we I don't think we know 141 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: exactly what happens, but like some family member like wrote 142 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: or someone close to family wrote about what had happened 143 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: on a note and like put it in a book, 144 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: and someone else who was I think an associate found 145 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: the book, a woman in her sixties. This person wrote 146 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: a letter to Oprah saying like, hey, don't have these 147 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: people on your show. Their kids a child molester. I 148 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: love the John of God episode. You know, it's one 149 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: of those things, um point nine percent of the time 150 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: when Oprah comes up on one of these shows, we're 151 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: being very negative towards her fact checking. This is not 152 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: that kind of story. Oprah does exactly the right thing 153 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: in this situation, which is not a thing that happens often. 154 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: But I will give credit where it's due here. They 155 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: handle it right. So, because obviously Oprah has an effectively 156 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: infinite pile of money, she set a team of people 157 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: into investigating the manner and again a fairly rare example 158 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 1: of journalistic integrity for the Oprah Winfrey Show. They seem 159 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: to have found some comments online repeating the allegations. Whenever 160 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,959 Speaker 1: they dug up concerned Oprah enough that she it seems 161 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: that she reported them to the Arkansas State Police Child 162 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: Protection Agency and the Washington County Child Protection Agency. She 163 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 1: didn't just this. The episodes never aired. She did just 164 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:53,439 Speaker 1: cancel the episodes, but it seems that she reported the duggers, 165 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: which is the right thing to do. Um. That's always 166 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: like the heartbreaking thing for me with Oprah. It's like 167 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 1: she's the stand in for the gullibility of America. They 168 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: just I just wanted to be true. This sounds so good. 169 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: I want to feel good about it, and then it 170 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: just stuff spins out or she's like, oh, the more 171 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: she follows through, it's like she did this time and 172 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: again she's helped enable molesters and other situations unfortunately, but 173 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: this time she did. She did everything right as far 174 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: as I can tell. As far as we know, she 175 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: did everything right. Um, that didn't matter as much as 176 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: it should. Perhaps we can argue maybe there was more 177 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 1: than could have, but she she took them off her show, 178 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: and she reported them to the law, to law enforcement 179 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: as far as we can tell. Uh. The official police 180 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: report that we've quoted from was filed in December of 181 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: two thousand six. So it does seem likely that she 182 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: reported them and there was an official police report, right 183 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 1: um now, if so, if if this is how it 184 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: actually went, Because all of this is a little murky, 185 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: Oprah gets kudos for being more critical of the Dugger's 186 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: image than any other mainstream media organ Nobody else really 187 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: devoted that much of a critical eye to them. And again, 188 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: I'm going to be a fair man here now. In 189 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: more recent years, once all this blew up, Gawker did 190 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: a deep dive to see what allegations they could find 191 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: online about Josh Dugget that might have been floating around 192 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: when the Duggers were supposed to be on Oprah. The 193 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: earliest comment they found seems to have come from a 194 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 1: commenter on a two thousand five blog called in the 195 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: commentary was the name she used was concerned Mom, and 196 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: this blog alleges misconduct by the anonymous son of a 197 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: political man at her church. Quote a few years ago, 198 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: the men of the church were meeting after church to 199 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 1: discuss my friends teenage daughter's apparel. They felt like their 200 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:40,839 Speaker 1: blouses were too tight and they should bind their chests 201 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: up more go figure. At the same time, the son 202 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: of one of these political men was touching one of 203 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: my friends teenage daughters in a sexual way as she slept. 204 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: This was found out and apologies were made. Although the 205 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: boy was tempted by the girl's tight blouse. The boy 206 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: was sent to one of the training centers to be punished. 207 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,199 Speaker 1: My friends did not return to the home church for 208 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: quite some time after this. At the same time, the 209 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: boy mentioned earlier was betrothed to a girl in the group. 210 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: Both were fourteen at the time. The betrothal was broken 211 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: up by the boy's actions. Just this last year, the 212 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: family of the young man mentioned before was highlighted on 213 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 1: the Discovery Channel. At the time, they had fourteen children, 214 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: were about to have another, and the mom was receiving 215 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:18,959 Speaker 1: a Mother of the Year award from our governor. Since 216 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 1: that time, the same boy was betrothed again to the 217 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: same girl. He was working very hard on a campaign 218 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: for U S Senate for the girl's father. The father 219 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: lost the campaign. He immediately began looking for sin in 220 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: the camp as that could be the only explanation for 221 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: the loss. He found out that the young man betrothed 222 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: to his daughter had committed sexual sins while on the 223 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: campaign trail. The young man now sixteen, was made to 224 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: stand in front of the church and confess his sin. 225 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: So again she doesn't name the Duggers, but it's there's 226 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: the only family with the Discovery show. And there was 227 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: another memory. Jim Holt was his name, who was running 228 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: for office and in Josh, because they wanted Josh to 229 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: in politics, worked on the campaign. The campaign didn't go well, 230 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: and they aimed it on the fact that everyone knew 231 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: he was a fucking molester. And it only became a 232 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: problem when another man in the church couldn't didn't win election, 233 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: because then they had to start looking for We'll talk 234 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: about more the scriptural justifications for this, but basically there 235 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 1: was sin in the camp and that's that's when he 236 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: became an actual problem for them, that he was molesting kids. 237 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: Typical guy getting mad at someone else when he couldn't 238 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: get his election up. Am I right? That's that's that's 239 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: That was a rough one. I'm not gonna lie to 240 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: a show. That was a rough one. Now in order 241 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: to understand why this fact, after again molesting kids not 242 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: a big punishment, sending in a way that lost a 243 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: political election to another prominent man in the church, that 244 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: got him a significant punishment. In order to understand why 245 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,319 Speaker 1: there's that kind of discrepancy, why molesting kids does not 246 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: earn you much of a punishment in this community, you 247 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: have to understand what the Institute for Basic Life Principles 248 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: calls the umbrella of action. I'm going to quote from 249 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: their own stupid website here. God given authorities can be 250 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 1: considered umbrellas of protection. By honoring and submitting to authorities, 251 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 1: you will receive the privileges of their protection, direction, and accountability. 252 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: If you resist their instructions and move out from their 253 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: jurisdictional care, you forfeit your place under their protection and 254 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:22,079 Speaker 1: face life's challenges and temptations on your own. The institute 255 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: goes on to state, under the overarching umbrella of his protection, 256 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: God has established significant jurisdictional structures family husbands and parents, 257 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,839 Speaker 1: government leaders, church leaders, elders and other believers, and employers. 258 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: There's a lot to talk about like with that that's 259 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: not great. So the way this works in practice is 260 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: that if anything goes wrong in a child's life or 261 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: with uh, you know, someone's wife, it is because they 262 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: were not properly submitting to authority and thus lost Godly protection, 263 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,199 Speaker 1: the protection of God's umbrella. Likewise, the reason Jim, or 264 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: the reason this this other member of the church's campaign 265 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: political campaign failed isn't that he was a bad candidate. 266 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: It was that Josh Dugger sinned and opened up a 267 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: hole in the umbrella that let satan it. Basically, that's 268 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: the that's that's the idea here. This not repeatedly molestic. Well, 269 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 1: this was caused by molesting his sisters, but the fact 270 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: that it it damaged the umbrella protection is why he 271 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: got punished, right, That's what was actually bad about this. Now, 272 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: the reason for this involves a few different factors. One, 273 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: as I elaborated on earlier, is that men's sexual misdeeds 274 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: are seen as fundamentally rooted in the behavior of the 275 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: women they assault or molest. That's pretty fucked up. But 276 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: the other factor here is arguably even worse. Under the 277 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: fundamentalist doctrine the Duggers follow the Gospel of Bill Gothard, 278 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: all sexuality outside of procreative marital sex is a sin. Again, 279 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: quiver Full kids aren't allowed to date. They engage in 280 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: something called courtship, which has very frustrating rules and under 281 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: which if you're like holding hands before marriage, that is 282 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: not okay. That's that is a serious sin and in 283 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: fact is a sin on the same level as what 284 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: Josh Duggar did to his his his siblings. Now every 285 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: interaction prior to marriage between male and female must be 286 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: carefully chaperoned. Healthy exploration is not seen as something that exists. 287 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: And when all sex and even like hand holding is 288 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: equally taboo, when masturbation is the same as child molestation, 289 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: there's no reason to punish a young man who molests 290 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: his sisters more than a young man who finds a 291 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: playboy in the woods, because the sin is the same, 292 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: which is not great, not great. I mean it's kind 293 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: of like how when you you attach these like draconian 294 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: penalties to possession of large amounts of illegal drugs, there 295 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: are people who be like, well, why shouldn't I just 296 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: kill the cop or something who's trying to arrest me, 297 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: Like it's a life in prison either way, I might 298 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: as well try to get away, you know, Like it's 299 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: this if you if you treat I don't know, it's 300 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: it's not great, it doesn't work well. Ever, when you 301 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: you do well, it's and in the specific way and 302 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: what you've seen from the episodes is it creates an 303 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: extremes on two ends where one because everything is under 304 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: the umbrella of sin, under of just like this just 305 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: general sin outside of marriage, things that are super fucked up, 306 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: like molestation get uh the severity gets not treated seriously 307 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: and the stuff like holding hands gets treated way too seriously. 308 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: And so then you get those those uh, those kind 309 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: of extremes where you have Josh Dougger molesting people and 310 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: possibly that that guy in Atlanta shooting up a spa. 311 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: It comes from that saying it's it's one of those 312 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: like kind of a total lack of proportion to lack 313 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: of proportion. It's like throwing a bouncy ball into an 314 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: empty room, you don't know where it's going to end 315 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: up hitting. Yeah, that's exactly right. Um. Now, repeated studies 316 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: have found that abstinence only a approaches to sex education 317 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 1: um and again, these are generally way less restrictive than 318 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: quiverful sex. Just absence only is not the same as 319 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 1: quiver ful sex said, but repeated studies have found that 320 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: this attitude towards sex just absence only programs do not 321 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 1: decrease sexual behaviors among kids, but do cause kids to 322 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: engage in riskier sex because they lack the education to 323 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: do it safely. It also robs kids of the vocabulary 324 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 1: they need to adequately explain when something unacceptable has happened 325 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: or been done to them. In her book A Love 326 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: That Multiplies, Michelle Dugger gives a story that her husband 327 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 1: tells to their kids to explain the importance of purity. 328 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: From this, we can get an idea of the kind 329 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: of sex said that the Dugger kids, both perpetrator Josh 330 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: and his victims benefited from. This is Michelle Dugger's writing, 331 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 1: So buckle in for some pros. Imagine that your parents 332 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: are going to surprise you and give you a brand 333 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: new bike for Christmas. Two weeks before Christmas, they buy 334 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: your bike and hide it in the storage shed in 335 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: the backyard. But then the boy next door sneaks into 336 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 1: the d and borrows your new bike. He stunt rides 337 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: it up and down the back alley. On Christmas morning, 338 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: your parents lead you out to the shed to reveal 339 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: the special gift they bought for you. And as they 340 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 1: opened the door and say surprised, they're just as surprised 341 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: as you are. You're all shocked to see that the 342 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: bike looks like it's been thrown off a cliff. The 343 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: front fender is missing and the front tire is warped 344 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: so it rubs on the frame. It's dirty, the paint 345 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: is all scratched and chipped, and the seat has a 346 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: big rip in it. It looks worse than something you 347 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: would have bought at a garage sale. I'm sure you 348 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: would still be grateful for the bike, and you would 349 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 1: have fun writing it, but it won't be in the 350 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: condition your parents had hoped and dreamed it would be 351 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: when you received it. You would miss out on the 352 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: a lot of and a lot of the enjoyment they 353 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: meant for you to have. In the same way, we 354 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: don't want any boy or girl to come and steal 355 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:46,120 Speaker 1: your purity. Pros more like amateurs, am I right? Yeah, 356 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 1: because everyone will be an amateur because you don't know 357 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,120 Speaker 1: anything when you're married. But also also it's a little 358 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 1: bit of shaming that. I mean some people are into 359 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: rip seats. I mean combo people are into rip seats. 360 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 1: Some people like you know, mud on the on the tires, 361 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: some people like don't need a fender. Um. It's also 362 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: you know, not great number one one of the weird 363 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 1: things about this is that for a community that like 364 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 1: attacks the secular world as being like obsessed with sex 365 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: and sexuality, they're completely reducing marriage to just fucking to 366 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: just virginity, right as opposed to just like, well, people 367 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,479 Speaker 1: tend to meet and get married and like life has 368 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: already happened to them, and you kind of take the 369 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: person as they are and everything that's happened to them. 370 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: And that's part of if you're in love with someone, 371 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,479 Speaker 1: what you love about them is the experiences they've had 372 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: in the person that's made them. This is saying like, no, 373 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,360 Speaker 1: if they're used at all, they're not as good well, 374 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 1: and it's and it's a it's a warping of the 375 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: experience of a love because the you know, the the 376 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: the idea and the life experience and the joy of 377 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: love is that the more you give, the more you have. 378 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: And this is saying that, no, your love is a 379 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,479 Speaker 1: finite thing and that any sort of usage of it 380 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: takes away from it. Like it's like Donald Trump and 381 00:19:57,440 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 1: his I don't exercise because my body's a battery. It's 382 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,880 Speaker 1: to run out. But yeah, what with love? But with 383 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:05,880 Speaker 1: love and it's yeah, I mean there's a lot that's 384 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,479 Speaker 1: wrong with it, including Nadia that like, well, it's actually 385 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 1: like if your parents got you a bike, but by 386 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: the time it was in the shed because it got 387 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: roaded so much, other kids came in and upgraded the bike. Uh, 388 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 1: and it was a much better bike because people had realized, oh, 389 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: you actually need these new wheels to like do a 390 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 1: better job of going up these hills. And I don't know, 391 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: we could. I don't want to continue making bike as 392 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: fucking metaphors, but you could. Well, you know, I mean, 393 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: that's it's something that's gonna happen. It's very cyclical, yeah, Jehan. 394 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: You know what else is cyclical? Uh? The rising of 395 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: the seventh moon on the planes of a distant planet 396 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 1: where presumably yeah, I mean unless it's like an elliptical lore, 397 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: but I guess yeah, I mean that's kind of But 398 00:20:55,280 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: I was gonna say, what cyclical is capitalism because you 399 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: start with money, and money buys products, and products create 400 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: more money, and then you get more money to buy 401 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: more products. It's a perfect circle. Yea perfect circle. I 402 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 1: mean the products are fine, I mean once you use 403 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: the product once I mean, it's it's not what your 404 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: parents wanted for you, so you get, so don't don't 405 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 1: buy the bikes that are advertised on our show if 406 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: someone's had sex with them, I think is the conclusion 407 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,959 Speaker 1: we're coming here, you know, or just like get like 408 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: uh you know, like how you get those one used 409 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: like dispense packs, but just get but with bikes. Geta 410 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: of bikes from Costco. Yeah, you don't want to ride 411 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 1: a bike twice? So yeah, yeah, hopefully Costco is gonna 412 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: come in here with me. Look, your parents are sitting 413 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 1: at home going, oh god, I hope he doesn't get 414 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 1: a bike that's already been ridden. Someone else's aid my 415 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: boys bike? What have I done? All right, here's products. 416 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: We're back. So in the almost ten years that followed 417 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 1: at first police report, which is again two thousand and six, 418 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 1: the Dugger family grew more popular and more powerful within 419 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 1: right wing political circles. Mike Huckabee, former governor and presidential 420 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: candidate A turn Um, was regularly seen with both Jim, 421 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: Bob and Joshua. They were very tight in with Huckabee. 422 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: In two thousand eight, he hired Josh to help run 423 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: his failed presidential primary campaign. In two thousand and twelve, 424 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: Josh spoke at rallies for presidential candidate Rick Santorum, a 425 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 1: man so bigoted that his last name was turned into 426 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 1: a recognized term for the mix of ship come in 427 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: lube that results from anal sex. In two thousand thirteen, 428 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,719 Speaker 1: Josh Dougger was hired by the Family Research Council, who 429 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: are themselves kind of like political Santorum. Now. The f 430 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: RC wanted him to be the new face of their organization, 431 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: and he was made as like he's like nineteen twenties, 432 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 1: like young man here. He's made the executive director of 433 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 1: f RC Action, the lobbying arm of the right wing organization, 434 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: actually been in his mid twenties. I think now. A 435 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 1: Fox News article functioned as a press released for this 436 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: because Fox News is basically the press arm of the 437 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: f r C uh and in that article they wrote 438 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: quote the FARC's political platforms include firm stances against abortion 439 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 1: and same sex marriage. Josh and his wife Anna have 440 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: been an inspiration to millions of Americans who regularly turned 441 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: in to see the Dugger family show, and all of 442 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: us at f r C and FARC Action have long 443 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 1: appreciated their commitment to the pro family movement. F RC 444 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: Action President Tony Perkins said in a statement, we welcome 445 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: him to the FARC action team and look forward to 446 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: taking our grassroots outreach to the next level. Now. The 447 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: f r C itself called Josh the new face of 448 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: faith and politics. People who walk who walked in similar 449 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: circles to the Dugger family at the time, will claim 450 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: that Josh was seen as an eventual candidate for higher office, 451 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: perhaps even a potential presidential candidate someday. That's always the 452 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: dream of these people, right, they want like Pince was 453 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,640 Speaker 1: a big deal in part because like that's as close 454 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: that's the closest they've gotten one of their you know, 455 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: someone who's in the cult, so to speak. Um and um, 456 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: that what they kind of hoped for for. He was 457 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: being groomed from childhood to do something nationally in politics. 458 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 1: Um and. As the face of f RC action, he 459 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: fought to block and roll back the rights of LGBTQ people, 460 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: conflating them with pedophiles and arguing against their right to 461 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 1: adopt children because they might molest them, which again, he's 462 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: a child molester, arguing the trans and gay people can't 463 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: be trusted with kids because they'll molest them. As he's 464 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 1: molesting people. I don't know. I like, how much do 465 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 1: you get harp on it right, like it's the thing? Well, 466 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: but yeah, because he's here's part of the other thing 467 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: with like the having everything under the umbrella of sin. 468 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: It's like, well, if you're if you're in the club 469 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: of if you're in the Jesus club, you can always repent. 470 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: We can put you in front of the congregation. Well 471 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 1: we can't put these LGBT. They might just raise their 472 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: kids and not molest them and never repent for being gay. 473 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 1: Whereas it's better I don't know that really is the 474 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 1: attitude that it's better for these kids to be molested 475 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 1: by godly people who can then. So that's and that's 476 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: to hammer that point home, to do a little bit 477 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: of a tangent that does hammer that point home. It's 478 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: like a lot of when you get into like the 479 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,959 Speaker 1: dominionist reconstructionists whatever, Like if you get in talking about slavery, 480 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: a lot of them will be like slavery was good 481 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: because they weren't Christian and they and the black people 482 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: were in Christian households. So the fact that they were 483 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,239 Speaker 1: in a Christian household as slaves and the way they 484 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 1: were treated. It was a better life for them than 485 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 1: being a heathen. Their souls were saved, right, their souls 486 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: were saved. So that's also what you're again, what you're 487 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: looking at it, it's it starts with the It starts 488 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: with a conclusion, Oh, Jesus's head of everything, and then 489 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: and is in charge of everything, and then works backwards. 490 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 1: So any anything that is close closer to him as 491 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: we define it is always going to be better objectively. Yeah, 492 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: it's you. You you've seen the same argument has been 493 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: made recently. I forget the exact website, but there was 494 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: just a big column about like how all of the 495 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 1: Indigenous people murder did resident American conservative? It was americansservative, 496 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: like it was actually good because even though they died, 497 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: they were being they weren't heathens anymore. So like any 498 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: amount of death is okay if they're not heathens anymore. 499 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: Which goes back to colonialism, and which is which they 500 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 1: kind of both aided each other on colonialism and evangelizing 501 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: to do fun things. These people suck is the people 502 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: think they're not great. Um So in two thousand and fourteen, 503 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,880 Speaker 1: the Dugger family went to war against an anti discrimination 504 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,959 Speaker 1: ordinance that would have gone into effect in Fayetteville, Arkansas. 505 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: The ordinance was meant to strengthen protections for LGBT and 506 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 1: particularly trans residents. It would have created a new position 507 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: on the city staff dedicated to handling discrimination complaints pertaining 508 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 1: to housing, employment, et cetera for LGBT people. It would 509 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: have also banned businesses from discriminating against queer people. The 510 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: Duggers spoke out against this ordinance, and Michelle even went 511 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,439 Speaker 1: as so far as to lend her voice to a 512 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: robo call. I'm going to read a segment from this 513 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 1: and please do your best to not explode from the irony. Hello, 514 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 1: this is Michelle Dugger. I'm calling to inform you of 515 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 1: some shocking news that would affect the safety of Northwest 516 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: Arkansas women and children. The Fayetteville City Council is voting 517 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: on an ordinance this Tuesday night that would allow men, yes, 518 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 1: I said men, to use women's and girls restrooms, locker 519 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 1: room showers, sleeping areas, and other areas that are designated 520 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 1: for females only. I don't believe the citizens of Fayetteville 521 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: would want males with past child predator convictions that claim 522 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 1: they are female to have a legal right to enter 523 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: the private areas that are reserved for women and girls. 524 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: And obviously if somebody beat they trans or not had 525 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: convictions for child molestation, they're not allowed to go and 526 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 1: do a restroom where children are because they're not allowed 527 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 1: to get close to children. To be fair, she did 528 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 1: not list their own beds as a place of privacy 529 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: for you know, women and child so you know, on 530 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: her end it works right, Yeah, And they're oh my god, 531 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 1: their arguments after it came out. We'll talk a little 532 00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: bit more about this later, but after it came out 533 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 1: publicly what Josh had done, there's this this they got 534 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: questioned about like, well, you were just like yelling about 535 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: how trans people shouldn't be able to use bathrooms because 536 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: it's bad for kids. But your son molested your children. 537 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: How do you square that? And like one of their 538 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 1: arguments was, well, it's not he wasn't a pedophile because 539 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: he was a child too. Okay, okay, Michelle, is that 540 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: what you gotta tell yourself to get to sleep at night? Um? Okay. Now, 541 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,360 Speaker 1: that same year two fourteen, more than thirty of Bill 542 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,719 Speaker 1: Gothard's female employees came forward with allegations that he had 543 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: molested or sexually harassed them. Have you been aware of this? Yeah? This, Yeah, 544 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: so this is a big deal and it like torpedoes 545 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: his organization. Some of the people he molested were children. 546 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: So again, this is the third child molester we've encountered 547 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: in this community. Um, and there's you can find a 548 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: lot of other stories about Again there there's we We 549 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: quoted someone earlier saying that, like I knew multiple families 550 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: where this had happened. It's because this in a lot 551 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: of ways, this cult is built around providing predators with 552 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: access to victive. I was gonna say, like a cult 553 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: just just as a concept is built on predation, and 554 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: so be predation is pretty much allowing uh desire, the 555 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: desires of the predator may be freely met being humans, 556 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: they'll be going to be sexual and this is just 557 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: gonna happen. Yeah. Now, my cult is based around the 558 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: desire to prey on the f d A, which is 559 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: I think very ethical. So yes, we might attack f 560 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: d A convoys, we might kidnap f DA officials, that's possible. 561 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: Anything's possible when the FDA is in play. But that's 562 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: the only people we hunt is the f d A 563 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: and hey if the if the first maybe maybe well 564 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: and if you you know what if you go through 565 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: a bunch of iterations and the first forty four don't work, 566 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: you'll have Oh yeah we can. We could We could 567 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: get a sponsorship from Billy Dee Williams. Yeah, yeah, there 568 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: we go. Or if you get to you know, fifty 569 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: seventh iteration, you got the h and we get we 570 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: get that Hinz money which we used to buy arms 571 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: in order to fight the f d A. I'm pretty 572 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: sure you can get John Kerry as a sponsor if 573 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: you get that Heinz money. I think you know John Kerry. 574 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: John Kerry has a combat experience which will be useful 575 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: for our guerrilla war against the Food and Drug Administration. 576 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: This is all coming together now. So Bill gothardeen more 577 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: than thirty of his female employees, and and some of 578 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: these people again say that he did it when they 579 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: were children. Bill resigned from the Institute for Basic Life 580 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: Principles and from a t I, but women continue to 581 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: come forward with allegations. Eventually, like more than sixty I 582 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: think we're at right now, like we're talking cosby numbers um. 583 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: And obviously it's much more than that right. That's the 584 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: number who were willing to come forward. Ten more victims 585 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: suited him in two thousand sixteen. Here's a quote from 586 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: an article about that by the Washington Post. One of 587 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: the Jane Doe plaintiffs in the lawsuit alleges that she 588 00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: was raped by her father and her other relatives, and 589 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: said she was sold by her father through human trafficking 590 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: when she was a minor. She said she reported the 591 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: abuse in trafficking to ib LP staff, which failed to 592 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: report to authorities. Families in the ministry would sometimes send 593 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: their children to institutes across the country, including its headquarters 594 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: in Illinois. When the Jane Doe plaintiff was at a 595 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: ministry's training center, she and Gothard both called her father, 596 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: and Gothard asked him if abuse allegations were true, the 597 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 1: lawsuit states. After her father denied the allegations, she said 598 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: Gothard threatened her. Gothard taught that children were to obey 599 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: their parents even if they were being sexually abused, the 600 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: lawsuit says. The Jane Doe then alleges that Gothard had 601 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: sexual intercourse with her without her consent, saying she notified 602 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: ib LP of the rape through an email. In two 603 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: thousand thirteen, she alleges that an IBLP employed counselor also 604 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: raped her in his office at an IBLP training center 605 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: in Indianapolis. David Gibbs, the third, the plaintiff's lawyer, said 606 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: that she is not sure how old she was at 607 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: the time of the alleged rapes, but was likely around 608 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: seventeen or eighteen years old. Again, these kids don't have 609 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: documents a lot of the time. Another woman in the lawsuit, 610 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: Ruth Cope Lee Burger, who was the adopted daughter of 611 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: the counselor in question, alleges that her father's actually molested her. 612 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: I'm reading this very unpleasant too. That's it's fucking endemic. 613 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: It is all over and I have never heard any 614 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: alliations about Jim Bob this way, but it is a 615 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: lot of the patriarchs so are involved in this. It 616 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: is fucking everywhere in this cold um. It's not cool 617 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: and good. It's it's really not cool and good. But 618 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: you know, thankfully, this is the only large religious based 619 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: organization where that's ever happened. No other church has done 620 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 1: anything like this. It's not like when you claim that 621 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: there's a hierarchy that gives certain people more access to God, 622 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: they will use that perceived moral authority to prey on 623 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: people's That's never happened another time. There there is there. 624 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: In fact, there's a giant banner outside the head of 625 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: the archdiocese in Boston Molestation free since one a d. 626 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: That's that's right there, that's their code. The famously never 627 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: been involved in any horrible I know, you know, one 628 00:32:58,240 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: of the things I've always been interested in. I'm a 629 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 1: and not not a religious person, um, but I'm there's 630 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: a pretty fascinating history of Catholic anarchism and and in 631 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: Christian anarchism in general that is based in a lot. 632 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: A lot of what it's based around is this idea 633 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: that like, well, every time you set up a hierarchy 634 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: that gives certain that presupposed to certain people are closer 635 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: to God than others, it seems to be a nightmare. Yeah, 636 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 1: that leads to death and molestation in war. Um, perhaps 637 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: that should never be the case, which I also think 638 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: I don't know, not a Bible expert, but seems like 639 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: Jesus would have been more on board with well, just like, 640 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: let's stress something different is it's it's the most frustrating 641 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: thing is the lack of acknowledgement that it's that being 642 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: at a specific place in a specific hierarchy, regardless of 643 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: what you think that means, somehow makes you in a 644 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: way less human as far as not being susceptible to 645 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: abusing that position. And it's just it's kind of like, well, no, 646 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: that's you have to that's you know, there's yeah, and 647 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: it's it always and you always see like there's just 648 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: a it's lack of transparency as how is the first 649 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:12,479 Speaker 1: wall to go up because it's yeah, yeah, it's a bummer. Um. 650 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 1: So at this point in US history, it should be 651 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:20,360 Speaker 1: clear that any moral crusaders who base a lot of 652 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: their arguments on the idea that trans or gay people 653 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,479 Speaker 1: are threats to children, as a general rule, these people 654 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,399 Speaker 1: are either harming kids themselves or enabling other people who 655 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: are harming kids. It's just such a consistent thing, um, 656 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: not a hundred percent, but a lot of the people 657 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: who do that kind of ship and the rank hypocrisy, 658 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: and there in the rank hypocrisy of the Dugger clan 659 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: goes further than that. Well, they kept their mouths fucking 660 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: shut about Bill Gothard in the wake of his fall 661 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 1: from grace. They've been doing that for years because their 662 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,240 Speaker 1: job was to subtly influence people towards fundamentalism without scaring 663 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: them off. So it's not like they had been super 664 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 1: public about Bill, but they never like, I don't I 665 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 1: don't have any real faith in the idea that they've 666 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,879 Speaker 1: disavowed this guy either. It's well, it's like they're they're 667 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 1: they're the Tom Cruise to his Yeah to his Now Josh, 668 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,919 Speaker 1: the face of the Family Research Council and the last 669 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,240 Speaker 1: best hope of heavenly rule on Earth, spent his entire 670 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: time as a family values lobbyist as a paid member 671 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: of the website Ashley Madison. Now, if you don't recall 672 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: Ashley Madison was basically it may still exist, was a 673 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 1: dating app for married people who wanted to cheat on 674 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: their spouses that eventually got all of its data leaked 675 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: and hilarity ensued. From two thousand thirteen to two thousand 676 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 1: and fifteen, he paid a total of nine hundred and 677 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: eighty six dollars and seventy six cents to the side, 678 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: So he was a he was a power user. You 679 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: could say, yeah, that's a lot of money to spend 680 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: on the adultery website Christian Morals cents as there was 681 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: like tax it. I hate, like, you can't even go 682 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: and cheat on people without having that ninety nine cents 683 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,319 Speaker 1: they like just round up. Come on. I bet he 684 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 1: was really angry about tax being this is gonna fun 685 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 1: sin people might get welfare. Yes, makes me angry, which 686 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:17,280 Speaker 1: makes me horny. So he listed his desire in finding 687 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 1: He listed his desire like the web. It's a dating website, right, 688 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: so you get to like list your stuff about you. 689 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: He lists listed his desire as to finding an extramarital 690 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: partner for quote conventional sex, experimenting with sex toys, one 691 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:35,720 Speaker 1: night stands, open to experimentation, gentleness, good with your hands, 692 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 1: sensual massage, extended for play, teasing, bubble bath for two, 693 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,760 Speaker 1: likes to give oral sex, likes to receive oral sex, 694 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,280 Speaker 1: someone I can teach, someone who can teach me kissing, 695 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 1: cuddling and hugging, sharing fantasies, and sex talk. Now. I 696 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: wouldn't be getting into this if it weren't for the 697 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 1: fact that every aspect of his life and job was 698 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: based around the idea that all of this should be illegal. 699 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:03,319 Speaker 1: Right like now, he listed his services listed as services. 700 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 1: The fact that he had like these are like the 701 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 1: reasons people should be interested in him, the fact that 702 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 1: he had good personal hygiene, a secret love nest, and 703 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: was drug free. Now Also in two thousand fourteen, the 704 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: year that Bill Gothard got busted from a lesting children 705 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,799 Speaker 1: and one of the years in which Josh Dugger paid 706 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: money to cheat on his wife, the four older Dugger 707 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:24,800 Speaker 1: sisters cashed in on their family fame by publishing the 708 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 1: book Growing Up Dugger, It's All About Relationships. Josh and 709 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: his wife Anna were invited to discuss their marriage. The 710 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: book includes this passage from Josh. As I became a 711 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 1: young man, I was constantly tempted to have lots of 712 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,439 Speaker 1: wrong thoughts, and often battled to keep my heart right. 713 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 1: One of the greatest things that helped me in my 714 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,840 Speaker 1: struggles was my parents commitment to accountability. They were faithful 715 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: to talk with each of us children if we were 716 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: willing to share honestly and openly with them to maintain 717 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 1: a clear conscience. I learned quickly that great freedom can 718 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: be achieved by accountability, but that deep accountability requires humility 719 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 1: and openness. I often had failures in my early teenage years. 720 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: But I found that I had a clear conscience only 721 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:04,840 Speaker 1: when I was willing to confess my thoughts quickly to 722 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 1: God and to my parents. The Bible passage Dugger sites 723 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 1: uh in this like he cites a John one nineteen, 724 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 1: which reads, if we confess our sins, he is faithful 725 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 1: and just and will forgive our sins and purify us 726 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: from all in righteousness, which is what you were talking about. 727 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 1: So wait, wait, wait, you're telling me the family that 728 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 1: does a capitalism on how It Runs released a formed 729 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 1: statement with an inspirational quote. Well, I mean, they released 730 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,879 Speaker 1: a book and then he gave up quoted. But yeah, 731 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: I mean, and it's it's yeah, it's yeah, I mean, 732 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,400 Speaker 1: but it is. Yeah. The way in which the daughters 733 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: he molested, his sisters have responded to this is also 734 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: very bleak. And I'm because they're also as victims. I'm 735 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,320 Speaker 1: not gonna like get into a lot of criticism or 736 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: great detail about it, but like, I mean, they're trapped. 737 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,840 Speaker 1: We'll talk about it a little later now. Of course, 738 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: Josh kept his sins hidden while he was you know, 739 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 1: and he just had said that, like, you have to 740 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,360 Speaker 1: confess quickly and openly to God and in people's but 741 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 1: he kept his sins hidden while he was lobbying against 742 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 1: the rights of gay and trans people to raise children. Uh, 743 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:09,279 Speaker 1: this is a big part of what he did for 744 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: the f RC. He was a big anti gay rights 745 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: advocate um and it was always judges like this is 746 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,280 Speaker 1: bad for kids. But those sins did not stay secret 747 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: and may have. Two thousand and fifteen, the gossip website 748 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: in Touch succeeded in foya ng their way to the truth. 749 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,720 Speaker 1: They published the long buried two thousand six police report 750 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,360 Speaker 1: detailing abuse by Josh Dougger. Josh and his family initially 751 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 1: claimed to deflect criticism. Are initially attempted to deflect criticism 752 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,320 Speaker 1: by making weasley claims about the exact extent of the abuse. 753 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: In a Facebook statement, Josh wrote, twelve years ago, as 754 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,279 Speaker 1: a young teenager, I acted inexcusably for which I am 755 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,359 Speaker 1: extremely sorry and deeply and deeply regret. I heard others, 756 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: including my family and close friends, there was a lot 757 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:49,760 Speaker 1: of talk about like, oh, it was above the clothes. 758 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,880 Speaker 1: It was never like they it was. It's almost as 759 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: gross as anything, just like reading them. Try to talk 760 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:57,719 Speaker 1: about why it's not really a big deal that he 761 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,800 Speaker 1: molested four of his sisters in a babysitter. Now, Josh 762 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: was forced to resign from the Family Research Council. Jim, Bob, 763 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: and Michelle made weasley statements about how they'd watched their 764 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: son like a hawk ever since the initial incidents and 765 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,279 Speaker 1: that they believed he had changed with God's help, but 766 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 1: the hits kept coming. Two of their daughters, Jessa and Jill, 767 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: chose to self identify as their brothers victims in July, 768 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,399 Speaker 1: and they actually spoke up to defend Josh and claim 769 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 1: that they've been victimized by in Touch publishing the police report. 770 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 1: Jessa claimed the system that was set up to protect kids, 771 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: both those who make stupid mistakes or have problems like 772 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: this in their life and the ones that are affected 773 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: by those choices, it's greatly failed. I don't agree with 774 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: them on this, and again I'm not going to like 775 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:41,879 Speaker 1: morally go after them for defending Josh because whatever, they 776 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 1: have to live in this. But I don't think it 777 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:46,800 Speaker 1: touched in anything wrong. They did not publish any names. 778 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: They did not say here's who he molested. They published 779 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 1: that this guy was a sexual predator who was not 780 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,319 Speaker 1: punished and who had a very public position claiming to 781 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,400 Speaker 1: defend children. That's in the public interest. I'm sorry, but 782 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:03,360 Speaker 1: it is like it just sounds like it's it's that 783 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 1: kind of like whether you with the kind of that 784 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: cold atmosphere, there's that kind of uh, sometimes literal in 785 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 1: this figurative bunker mentality where it's like, yeah, there's problems 786 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,600 Speaker 1: in here, but they're supposed to be just in here, 787 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,239 Speaker 1: and so you kind of you put you put a 788 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:28,239 Speaker 1: unified front and attack the out there. Yep, yep, that's 789 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 1: exactly what's and it's you know, you also you get 790 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,840 Speaker 1: into this, there's this There are cases there have always 791 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,239 Speaker 1: been of people who have children who are molested and 792 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,759 Speaker 1: do not see what was done to them as bad. 793 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: And I guess a good public example would be you 794 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:45,719 Speaker 1: have a couple of different rock stars who had sex 795 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,000 Speaker 1: with groupies were fourteen fifteen, sixteen, right, a number of 796 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 1: those women and we're like, I'm fine with it. It 797 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 1: was a good experience. It's still rape. It's still like 798 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 1: even if and I'm I'm I'm not gonna say like 799 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: they should be more trial. Obviously, if that happens to you, 800 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 1: when you feel you don't feel traumatized. That's good. I 801 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:05,759 Speaker 1: guess it's always better to not feel traumatized. But like 802 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 1: that person, that is still statutory rape. That's not acceptable 803 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 1: to Hey, it's it's it's the it's the power dynamic 804 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,360 Speaker 1: that or even if they even if the person on 805 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,359 Speaker 1: the lower end of that feels that was consensual enough 806 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: where they weren't, but still, like, you know, these people 807 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:24,360 Speaker 1: they're they're taking advantage of you, and it's it's a 808 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,800 Speaker 1: another step in predatory behavior that could come out and 809 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 1: his worse for the next person. Yeah, and it's it's 810 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,680 Speaker 1: the I mean, obviously this is much more severe than that, 811 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:38,840 Speaker 1: because yeah, this is like obviously, but it's on the 812 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 1: same chain. It is the fact, and it's very morally kind. 813 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 1: And I'm not going to get into this much more 814 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 1: in focus on like his victims, but like the idea 815 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: that like they have downplayed what was done to them, 816 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:51,799 Speaker 1: which you know, people have the freedom to say it, 817 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,799 Speaker 1: but it doesn't mean that it wasn't a serious crime, right, 818 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:59,439 Speaker 1: it's it's yeah, um, but you know what is a 819 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:05,640 Speaker 1: serious crime not buying these products, buying these products and services, 820 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 1: that's right, that's right, Jesus Christ. Okay, Well, we're back, 821 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:23,640 Speaker 1: so right, um. So, Josh's sisters kind of came to 822 00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 1: his defense. Um. They argued that the charges against their brother, 823 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,400 Speaker 1: that their brother was a pedophile and a child molester 824 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,840 Speaker 1: were quotes so overboard and a lie. One argument that 825 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 1: Dugger parents made was that since the abuse occurred while 826 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,120 Speaker 1: he was also a child, he can't have been a 827 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,840 Speaker 1: child molester or a pedophile. We'll put a pin in 828 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,680 Speaker 1: that for right now. It's worth noting that two other 829 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 1: Dugger sisters were molested by Josh. Again, it started with 830 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,880 Speaker 1: two and I don't know the exact time frame, but 831 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 1: four sisters. Um at least one was molested after Jim 832 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,200 Speaker 1: and Bob Dugger Jim, Bob and Michelle became aware of 833 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,400 Speaker 1: the abuse. Another victim of Josh was a non family 834 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 1: member who worked as a babysitter for the family when 835 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:02,719 Speaker 1: she was a teenager. I have not found a lot 836 00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,560 Speaker 1: of details about this case. The Dugger family repeatedly stated 837 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,160 Speaker 1: their belief that their TV show would not need to 838 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:11,239 Speaker 1: be canceled as a result of these revelations. On July, 839 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:13,680 Speaker 1: it was like two thousand six was when Oprah kind 840 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:15,319 Speaker 1: of figured stuff out. So you kind of have that 841 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,440 Speaker 1: as far as like a timeline. Yeah, so before that, 842 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:21,040 Speaker 1: it seems likely it was like two thou three to 843 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:27,440 Speaker 1: two kind he was born, it's that's fifteen, yeah, exactly. Um. 844 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 1: On July sixteenth, though, TLC permanently canceled nineteen kids and 845 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,680 Speaker 1: counting some Republicans who's who had posed with members of 846 00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,360 Speaker 1: the family like Mico Rubio slinked off into the background 847 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:39,640 Speaker 1: and try just not to make a statement on the matter. 848 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 1: But Mike Huck could be charged headfirst into this as 849 00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,960 Speaker 1: a culture war issue. He called Josh's actions inexcusable, but 850 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,560 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean unforgivable and then said that like we're, 851 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,600 Speaker 1: you know, coming to the family with love and support. Um, 852 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,400 Speaker 1: if only they had been around when cancel culture was 853 00:44:54,400 --> 00:45:00,000 Speaker 1: in full sway. Can't cancel someone just for repeatedly molests 854 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:04,360 Speaker 1: to children. Now on July, Yeah, so right around this time, um, 855 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,239 Speaker 1: the abuse the user database for Ashley Madison leaked. So 856 00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,440 Speaker 1: all of this comes out, Josh duggers out of then 857 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:12,799 Speaker 1: it comes out that he's been paying the cheat on 858 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,480 Speaker 1: his wife. Um. Not a great year for Josh dougg. 859 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,080 Speaker 1: He made another peddling apology where he called himself a 860 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:23,160 Speaker 1: hypocrite and talked about his pornography addictions, like I'm a 861 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:25,920 Speaker 1: it's the evil porn that has paid me to all 862 00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,880 Speaker 1: these bad things. Almost immediately after this, a sex worker, 863 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,880 Speaker 1: Danika Dylan, came forward and filed suit against Josh, alleging 864 00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,520 Speaker 1: that during a paid consensual sex encounter, he brutally assaulted her. 865 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,560 Speaker 1: Josh and I the allegations, and Dylan did eventually withdraw 866 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,120 Speaker 1: her lawsuit, claiming I didn't have the money to take 867 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,439 Speaker 1: on TLC or the Dugger family, and I again don't 868 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 1: have a lot of detail on that. Seems very like 869 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: that's a very good I get, I get why she 870 00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,759 Speaker 1: would have done that. I believe her seems totally in 871 00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,920 Speaker 1: character for Josh Dougger. Um, we know he's willing to 872 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 1: pay for sex one way or the other. We know 873 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,200 Speaker 1: he's willing to assault people. I believe his sense of 874 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,680 Speaker 1: boundaries do not. Just his sense of boundaries don't. Because 875 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:08,759 Speaker 1: he claims to have some evidence that, like I think 876 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:10,520 Speaker 1: of the TAXI received, he was in a different place. 877 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,080 Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not an expert on the case. Um, 878 00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,600 Speaker 1: Josh checked himself into rehab. Of course, it was a 879 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:20,040 Speaker 1: biblically based program called Reformers Unanimous, and for a while 880 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,759 Speaker 1: he was able to successfully hide from public scrutiny. This 881 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:25,760 Speaker 1: kind of goes away a little bit. His wife Anna 882 00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,880 Speaker 1: stayed with him, and TLC did eventually decide to reboot 883 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:32,440 Speaker 1: The Duggers Show without Josh, under a new name, and 884 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:33,800 Speaker 1: it seemed as if they were going to get to 885 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,080 Speaker 1: sweep all this under the rug in the name of 886 00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,520 Speaker 1: TLC's profits, obviously, but that's not what happened. From a 887 00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,000 Speaker 1: write up by Delanere Bartlett, who again grew up in 888 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,759 Speaker 1: the same community, in late two thousand nineteen, there was 889 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:46,480 Speaker 1: a hint that trouble might be on the way back 890 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,920 Speaker 1: to Josh when federal agents rated his used car dealership, 891 00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 1: always a sentence you can say about the best people. 892 00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,399 Speaker 1: The entire incident was kept very hush hush, the nature 893 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,319 Speaker 1: of their investigation, what they were looking for, If they 894 00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,760 Speaker 1: found anything, none of it was released to the public. 895 00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:02,440 Speaker 1: But then those of us who knew Josh Duggers suspected 896 00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:06,200 Speaker 1: it was something more. Sex offenders, especially pedophiles, require long term, 897 00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,759 Speaker 1: intensive therapy from qualified mental health professionals. You can't pray 898 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,320 Speaker 1: it away, and Josh was practically swimming in a culture 899 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:16,480 Speaker 1: that excuses and enables sex offenders. Evidence shows that Duggers 900 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,640 Speaker 1: knew something else was going to go down. After the raid, 901 00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,960 Speaker 1: Josh started moving a lot of his assets. He sold 902 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,000 Speaker 1: the family home and bought a new, unfinished home in Springdale, 903 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,520 Speaker 1: but he didn't move into it. Instead, he sold it 904 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,120 Speaker 1: to an LLC in Anna's name and immediately put it 905 00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,560 Speaker 1: up for sale. He then moved Anna and their six 906 00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:37,120 Speaker 1: children into a windowless outbuilding on Jim Bob's property. He 907 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,399 Speaker 1: also shuddered his used car dealership and immediately opened four 908 00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:44,440 Speaker 1: limited liability corporations in Anna's name. Remember, in the Dugger's 909 00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,120 Speaker 1: fundamentalist worldview, only the husband, as the head of the 910 00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,839 Speaker 1: family is supposed to own and manage the family's financial resources. 911 00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:55,000 Speaker 1: But not if you've just gotten rated for child born. Yeah, 912 00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:57,759 Speaker 1: and see, I mean total amateur bastard moved their Look, 913 00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:00,280 Speaker 1: this is the point where you're supposed to go to Mexico. 914 00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:03,000 Speaker 1: You should you should have got Mexico, right to Mexico. 915 00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,160 Speaker 1: I'm not going to give a child molester crime advice here, 916 00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:08,480 Speaker 1: but already you look, you got you got a used car, 917 00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:12,520 Speaker 1: used car dealership. Always you know, next you have an 918 00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:16,640 Speaker 1: untraced or harder to trace car. You know, there's you 919 00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:18,520 Speaker 1: can go down to Mexico. I hear there's some great 920 00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:22,919 Speaker 1: doctors that will give you some plastic surgery. Uh. Yeah, 921 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:26,440 Speaker 1: that's a shame. Well not a shame because he's a pedophile. 922 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:31,880 Speaker 1: Um he also yeah, so again just just goes to 923 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:36,239 Speaker 1: talk about like how related to convenience all of this 924 00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:40,399 Speaker 1: ship is like it's perfectly fine to um uh, Like, 925 00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,160 Speaker 1: you know, women aren't supposed to have access to money 926 00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,400 Speaker 1: at all. But like if you know you need to 927 00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,080 Speaker 1: hide the fact that, or if you need to hide 928 00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,720 Speaker 1: your assets because the FEDS are after you for child porn, 929 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:58,080 Speaker 1: well God will understand. Now we have more recently learned 930 00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:00,400 Speaker 1: what the Feds were after. We're like, after all on 931 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:02,799 Speaker 1: this rate. So there's rate, but they don't say, you 932 00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:04,399 Speaker 1: know that they're the Fed. They're not going to say 933 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,080 Speaker 1: what anything is about until they're done like building their case. 934 00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:09,520 Speaker 1: That's the way that kind of stuff tends to work. Um. 935 00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,160 Speaker 1: And of course we now know that he was rated 936 00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:16,560 Speaker 1: because Josh was viewing and downloading child pornography. He absolutely 937 00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,120 Speaker 1: as a pedophile, and a rather extreme one. Based on 938 00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:22,279 Speaker 1: the evidence we have the Homeland Security special agent who 939 00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,720 Speaker 1: examined Josh's computer described what he found there as quote 940 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,360 Speaker 1: in the top five of the worst of the worst 941 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:32,240 Speaker 1: that I've ever had to examine. And so again with 942 00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:34,480 Speaker 1: with Bellan Catt, we do some work with Interpoll in 943 00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:38,799 Speaker 1: terms of trying to track down, um, particularly people making 944 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:40,440 Speaker 1: child porn. And the way that it works is that 945 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:44,360 Speaker 1: they they have people who actually view the pornography and 946 00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:47,000 Speaker 1: will take screen grabs from it and cut out, you know, 947 00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:51,520 Speaker 1: the human beings, remove anything that's actually like sexual in nature, 948 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,000 Speaker 1: anything that's obviously illegal, and you will just get like 949 00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:55,719 Speaker 1: photos of like stuff that's in the room, so like 950 00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,200 Speaker 1: toys that are in the room, like maybe views out 951 00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:00,239 Speaker 1: of And the goal was like where is this happening, 952 00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,960 Speaker 1: because sometimes there's certain resorts that these people use. Um 953 00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:05,319 Speaker 1: is this the same person in this other video? Well 954 00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:06,920 Speaker 1: you don't. You never see the people, but it's like 955 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,680 Speaker 1: here's a if there was, like not not the person 956 00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:14,080 Speaker 1: involved in the act, but like if you see someone, Yeah, 957 00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:17,839 Speaker 1: any anything that might help you track down details around it. UM. 958 00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,560 Speaker 1: And it's it's very complicated and painstaking work. UM. But 959 00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,200 Speaker 1: the worst work is the people and it's a very 960 00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:28,480 Speaker 1: small number of people who are actually viewing the original pornography, 961 00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:31,200 Speaker 1: which is you have individuals like that who are in 962 00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,000 Speaker 1: law enforcement, both federal and kind of internationally. And I 963 00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,920 Speaker 1: think there's also there are certain like researchers and journalists 964 00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:40,600 Speaker 1: who can there's like ways to get legal approval to 965 00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:45,400 Speaker 1: like analyze certain ports and like that kind of work 966 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:48,080 Speaker 1: is the worst thing I can imagine doing because like 967 00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:51,680 Speaker 1: they have to look at the UNET like the child 968 00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:55,000 Speaker 1: abuse videos. Um, I can't imagine a more difficult or 969 00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,239 Speaker 1: traumatizing job. And a guy whose job is to do that, 970 00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:02,160 Speaker 1: says Josh Suger's porn stash is like one of the 971 00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:06,600 Speaker 1: worst things I've seen in my career looking at child pornography, 972 00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:10,600 Speaker 1: which is a statement, Yeah, that's I mean, it's oh yeah, 973 00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:14,319 Speaker 1: it's any of that because like I've actually it's about 974 00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,640 Speaker 1: a decade ago. Now, I was on a grand jury, 975 00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:19,680 Speaker 1: which is if people aren't familiar with that, there's you 976 00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:22,680 Speaker 1: get you get jury duty. You're on a case. Grand 977 00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:25,839 Speaker 1: jury duty is where you have your four weeks. It's 978 00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:27,680 Speaker 1: a nine to five in a room and you see 979 00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:32,200 Speaker 1: a bunch of and the prosecutors bringing evidence and you 980 00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:34,000 Speaker 1: kind of give a yes or no vote to whether 981 00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,759 Speaker 1: it goes to truck right. Uh. And we was in 982 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:40,200 Speaker 1: Multnoma County. It was the I forget which number it was, 983 00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:43,560 Speaker 1: but we had cases where it was involved like child abuse, 984 00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:47,000 Speaker 1: sexual abuse, and the kids had to come in and 985 00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:49,680 Speaker 1: be witnesses and they we had and we had people 986 00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:52,560 Speaker 1: that work specifically just with them and with the stuff 987 00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:54,960 Speaker 1: that they have to do with coming in and helping 988 00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,839 Speaker 1: them through it. And it was just also just incredibly 989 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,839 Speaker 1: tense and fraud and to just be in any part 990 00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:05,440 Speaker 1: of that, especially the part where you see the trauma 991 00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:10,040 Speaker 1: happening in real time. Uh yeah, that's yeah, I mean 992 00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:14,360 Speaker 1: it's there's um that whole the legal framework set up 993 00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:16,440 Speaker 1: to deal with all of that, all those kind of 994 00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,839 Speaker 1: cases is um very interesting in a lot of ways. 995 00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:21,920 Speaker 1: I interviewed a guy when I was working for Cracked 996 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:26,760 Speaker 1: years ago who's side job was so obviously, when children 997 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,040 Speaker 1: are molested, they're going to need to talk to some 998 00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,640 Speaker 1: gift statements to law enforcement, right, which means ideally, if 999 00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:34,439 Speaker 1: you're trying to do this in the most ethical way, 1000 00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,600 Speaker 1: because cops don't normally talk to children about stuff like that, 1001 00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,200 Speaker 1: you want to train them, right, and you don't want 1002 00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:42,200 Speaker 1: to train them on children because you don't want to 1003 00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:44,000 Speaker 1: like have a kid come in. You don't want to 1004 00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:46,560 Speaker 1: learn on the job with that sort of thing because 1005 00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,320 Speaker 1: it's already traumatizing for the kids. So there are actors, 1006 00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:52,400 Speaker 1: generally adult actors who look much younger, who train and 1007 00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,880 Speaker 1: how to mimic being a molested child and will train 1008 00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,680 Speaker 1: like federal agents and stuff to interrogate not interrogate that storm, 1009 00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:02,680 Speaker 1: but interview children who have been victims of second Like 1010 00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:05,520 Speaker 1: it's there's a lot of work that goes into trying 1011 00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:07,960 Speaker 1: to protect kids as much as possible within what is 1012 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,680 Speaker 1: already a nightmare for them. But what's the worst that 1013 00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:15,360 Speaker 1: can happened, like a satanic panic or something like um, 1014 00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:17,680 Speaker 1: And if anyone is a super bund up by what 1015 00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:20,040 Speaker 1: we just talked about, go to Belling Cat and look 1016 00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:25,600 Speaker 1: up what's app flash cars nuclear secret for the nuclear 1017 00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:28,600 Speaker 1: secrets article. Yeah that all of the guys. So, yeah, 1018 00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,480 Speaker 1: we did an article recently. I had no involvement in it, uh, 1019 00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:33,480 Speaker 1: which you know it is people who are much better 1020 00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:35,440 Speaker 1: journalists than me. But yeah, they found that like all 1021 00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,080 Speaker 1: of the people guarding our nuclear secrets had like been 1022 00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:40,759 Speaker 1: using public flash card apps. You could search them and 1023 00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:44,439 Speaker 1: find like code phrases to like get onto nuclear weapons site. 1024 00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,120 Speaker 1: It was like a place in eastern Europe that Yeah, 1025 00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:50,680 Speaker 1: it was never a confirmed lear. Yeah, there's a lot. 1026 00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:55,279 Speaker 1: It's very funny, very funny, how slap dash all of 1027 00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:57,399 Speaker 1: that is. But thankfully they put a little more thought 1028 00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:02,359 Speaker 1: into I don't know, job Molestasian. It's good. So yeah 1029 00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:06,600 Speaker 1: again this fucking this the FED whose job is to 1030 00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:09,120 Speaker 1: like analyze this stuff as like Josh Dugger's computer is 1031 00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:11,759 Speaker 1: one of the worst things I've seen my career of 1032 00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:15,840 Speaker 1: watching nightmares. Um. The agent stated that he found multiple 1033 00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,799 Speaker 1: images on Josh's computer depicting sex abuse with children from 1034 00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:22,040 Speaker 1: twelve to eighteen months old, so he has a preference 1035 00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:26,200 Speaker 1: for very very young kids. Um. Now. This came after 1036 00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:29,560 Speaker 1: Josh had made public statements about his Ashley Madison account, 1037 00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:32,440 Speaker 1: which he blamed on his pornography addiction. As a result 1038 00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:35,920 Speaker 1: of that, he'd installed a program called Covenant Eyes, a 1039 00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:41,440 Speaker 1: Christian based web like Christian based program that takes screenshots 1040 00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:44,280 Speaker 1: of your online activity at random and uses machine learning 1041 00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:46,760 Speaker 1: to analyze them to see if you're you're looking at porn, 1042 00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,239 Speaker 1: and it sends those screenshots to a trusted ally to 1043 00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:51,680 Speaker 1: keep you accountable. Right, the goal is to stop you 1044 00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:55,160 Speaker 1: from looking at porn. Now, Covenant Eyes apparently did not 1045 00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:59,359 Speaker 1: detect Dugger's prolific child porn browsing because he'd installed tour 1046 00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:01,880 Speaker 1: and was saying he was he was obviously like, the 1047 00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:03,520 Speaker 1: dark web is where you go for that ship, right, 1048 00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:05,160 Speaker 1: you want to buy drugs, you want to hire a 1049 00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:07,640 Speaker 1: hitman who's actually a fed, or you want to find 1050 00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:10,960 Speaker 1: child pornography. That's what the dark web is for. Um 1051 00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:14,040 Speaker 1: And yeah, so presumably that's how he found his porn. 1052 00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:18,120 Speaker 1: Josh was charged with just a lot of federal crimes, 1053 00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:22,040 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of federal crimes. He currently faces up 1054 00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:24,600 Speaker 1: to forty years in federal prison. The U. S District 1055 00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:26,919 Speaker 1: judge who handled his detention hearing, said that he could 1056 00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:29,080 Speaker 1: not return home to live with his wife and children 1057 00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:32,560 Speaker 1: for reasons that I shouldn't need to explain now. The 1058 00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:35,600 Speaker 1: cult being the cult, Josh is still their special boy, 1059 00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:37,719 Speaker 1: and his crimes are obviously the fault of Satan and 1060 00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:40,960 Speaker 1: probably those sin for children. As a result, his community 1061 00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:44,120 Speaker 1: leapt into action to defend him, while expressly ignoring the 1062 00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,239 Speaker 1: interests of vulnerable people who weren't Josh Dugger. They found 1063 00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:51,359 Speaker 1: another quiverful couple, couple Maria and le Count Reaber, and 1064 00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:53,960 Speaker 1: convinced the count that they should put Josh up while 1065 00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:56,920 Speaker 1: his trial went on. LeCount told the judge their home 1066 00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:59,200 Speaker 1: would be good for Josh because it doesn't have WiFi 1067 00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:02,840 Speaker 1: or children. But of course, the story behind this was 1068 00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:05,759 Speaker 1: much more fucked up than was initially reported. From a 1069 00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,680 Speaker 1: write up by Jessica Leigh on the website church leaders 1070 00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:12,399 Speaker 1: dot Com, Josh Dugger's father, Jim Bob Dugger, called people 1071 00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:14,719 Speaker 1: in his church to see if any would be custodians 1072 00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:17,640 Speaker 1: for his son. When Josh was released on bail. Jim 1073 00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:20,520 Speaker 1: Bob found a man willing to take Josh in, except 1074 00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:23,440 Speaker 1: that man's wife teaches piano lessons to children and she 1075 00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:25,959 Speaker 1: was not comfortable having Josh home with her all day 1076 00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:28,120 Speaker 1: because she would be alone with him while her husband 1077 00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:30,880 Speaker 1: was at work. That didn't matter to the husband, However, 1078 00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,040 Speaker 1: she has to find a new place to teach all 1079 00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,440 Speaker 1: those children because her husband wants Josh to live with them. 1080 00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:38,319 Speaker 1: That's a quote from a member of the community. Now, 1081 00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:40,560 Speaker 1: you know, if he hadn't been re arrested, he would 1082 00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:41,960 Speaker 1: have been They would have set him to live with 1083 00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:46,319 Speaker 1: that trooper. Well he's in prison, yeah if he if 1084 00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,440 Speaker 1: he hadn't been, he will be soon maybe so. Maria 1085 00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:51,840 Speaker 1: Reaber has said that she is uncomfortable being alone with 1086 00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:54,560 Speaker 1: Josh Dugger and is also uncomfortable with her with her 1087 00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,320 Speaker 1: twenty two year old daughter being alone with him. However, 1088 00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:01,080 Speaker 1: at Wednesday's hearing, Reber testified, my husband has made the decision, 1089 00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:07,319 Speaker 1: and I'm here to support that decision. Healthy ship. Healthy ship. Now, 1090 00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:09,920 Speaker 1: in the reaction to Josh Dougger's charges, we see more 1091 00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:12,360 Speaker 1: evidence of women in his community supporting him at a 1092 00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:15,280 Speaker 1: cost to their own safety. And again, these women are victims. 1093 00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:17,640 Speaker 1: I'm not like criticizing for them, but it's this is 1094 00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:21,000 Speaker 1: what's happening. They are mortgaging their own safety and the 1095 00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:24,320 Speaker 1: safety of their family members to protect this man. You know. 1096 00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:26,600 Speaker 1: Can keep in mind too, like they're in there under 1097 00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:30,560 Speaker 1: the same value system where like, yeah he did this, 1098 00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:35,560 Speaker 1: but you know, like I held hands with so you know, yeah, yeah, 1099 00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:38,520 Speaker 1: I looked at a man when I was out in 1100 00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:42,280 Speaker 1: town recently, both that same None of us is perfect. 1101 00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:46,240 Speaker 1: He molested multiple children. One time I looked at Kurt 1102 00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:49,280 Speaker 1: Russell in a movie and thought he was hot equal crimes, 1103 00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:52,360 Speaker 1: which they kind of. So you know that that again 1104 00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:55,520 Speaker 1: that tension of like, oh, well, the civil authority or 1105 00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:58,640 Speaker 1: the government has civil authority over a few things, and 1106 00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:01,160 Speaker 1: then everything else is under God, and while this is 1107 00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:03,360 Speaker 1: a family matter, so it's under God. So we're going 1108 00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:07,760 Speaker 1: to be a united front. Yeah, yeah, God, it's not great. 1109 00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:11,600 Speaker 1: So the right up, I just quoted sites racial din 1110 00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:14,240 Speaker 1: Hollander at several points. She's sorry that and that was 1111 00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:16,040 Speaker 1: it was a member of the community that was quoted. 1112 00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:18,160 Speaker 1: There was racial din Hollander. Well kind of is so. 1113 00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:20,960 Speaker 1: Rachel din Hollander is best known as the first woman 1114 00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,640 Speaker 1: to speak out and file a police report against USA 1115 00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:27,160 Speaker 1: gymnastics team doctor Larry Nassar, one of the most prolific 1116 00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:31,520 Speaker 1: child abusers in the history of child abuse UM. She 1117 00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:34,200 Speaker 1: says she was groomed for the abuse she received by 1118 00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:36,880 Speaker 1: Nasser because she was molested as a child in an 1119 00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:40,600 Speaker 1: evangelical church. She was disgusted to see Maria Reaver being 1120 00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:43,160 Speaker 1: pushed to accept a child molester into her home. Quote, 1121 00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:45,720 Speaker 1: every single family who takes piano from her and the 1122 00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:48,840 Speaker 1: wife herself has to up route their routine livelihood and 1123 00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:52,880 Speaker 1: the child's musical education because Josh everyone is expected to 1124 00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:55,840 Speaker 1: bear the cost except Josh, and the wife's own very 1125 00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:58,040 Speaker 1: reasonable fears about being alone all day with a man 1126 00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:01,280 Speaker 1: who enjoys the sexual torture of tolers didn't matter to 1127 00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:03,680 Speaker 1: the husband either. The men in the situation are the 1128 00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:06,920 Speaker 1: leaders making the decisions, while the women are expected to submit. 1129 00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:10,640 Speaker 1: She also provides what I think is a realistic explanation 1130 00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:13,840 Speaker 1: for why and Dugger Josh's wife has stood by her 1131 00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:17,880 Speaker 1: husband for so long, even after getting uncontrovertible, in controvertible 1132 00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:20,240 Speaker 1: evidence that he is not safe to be around their children. 1133 00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:24,520 Speaker 1: Quote din Hollander. Scenes sees Anna Dugger's silence about her 1134 00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:28,560 Speaker 1: husband's sexual proclivities as symptomatic of certain evangelical teachings about 1135 00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:32,040 Speaker 1: the proper role of wives. Din Hollander referenced several concepts 1136 00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:35,960 Speaker 1: promoted in some conservative circles, including the complimentary in teaching 1137 00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:38,640 Speaker 1: that wives need to respect and submit to their husbands. 1138 00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:42,840 Speaker 1: Some conservative Christians emphasize the idea that God hates divorce 1139 00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:45,280 Speaker 1: so much that they encourage women to stay in abuse 1140 00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:48,240 Speaker 1: of situations, and it is not unusual for Christian women 1141 00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:51,120 Speaker 1: to be taught that they are responsible for men's lust. 1142 00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:53,919 Speaker 1: If they are married, women are encouraged to make sure 1143 00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:56,480 Speaker 1: to have regular sex with their husbands so that the 1144 00:59:56,520 --> 01:00:00,120 Speaker 1: men will not be unfaithful. Anna certainly couldn't tell anyone 1145 01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:03,120 Speaker 1: because that would not be respectful, said Den Hollander. That's 1146 01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:05,640 Speaker 1: how we counsel wives in these marriages. But she was 1147 01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:08,720 Speaker 1: certainly taught to have sex more to fix it. Her 1148 01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:11,439 Speaker 1: own mother in law wrote blog articles that said as much. 1149 01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:16,640 Speaker 1: TLC at least canceled Counting On in June, after eleven 1150 01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,520 Speaker 1: seasons on the air. They claimed that it was important 1151 01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:21,960 Speaker 1: to give the Dugger family the opportunity to address their 1152 01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:25,160 Speaker 1: situation privately, as if the family had not been given 1153 01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:28,360 Speaker 1: ample opportunity to address the situation privately in the more 1154 01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:31,280 Speaker 1: than ten years between the first allegations and the widespread 1155 01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:36,600 Speaker 1: reporting on Josh's behavior. He you remember when we all 1156 01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:39,440 Speaker 1: thought Honey Boo Boo was the worst thing on TV. Yeah, 1157 01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:44,600 Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, I mean yeah, it just was always great. Yeah, 1158 01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:47,600 Speaker 1: but like it's like, oh, yeah, that's what we were, 1159 01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:49,480 Speaker 1: that's what we looked at, that's what people were freaking 1160 01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:54,200 Speaker 1: out of. This was just sitting there the whole time. Well, Sean, 1161 01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:57,400 Speaker 1: how do you feel did you get do you feel 1162 01:00:57,400 --> 01:01:01,000 Speaker 1: good about this two parter? Oh? Yeah, it's feel good 1163 01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:03,000 Speaker 1: that it's out there now. It's it's like I said, 1164 01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:06,240 Speaker 1: it's a I feel like it's this the people and 1165 01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:10,000 Speaker 1: some of the and the depth is it's something that 1166 01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:13,680 Speaker 1: comes up more in people that are kind of more 1167 01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:17,400 Speaker 1: versed in the communities, and so it's good to have it, 1168 01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:20,680 Speaker 1: you know, out there and to have other people kind 1169 01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:23,920 Speaker 1: of look at or be aware of these communities, especially 1170 01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:28,160 Speaker 1: because you know, again in that kind of like you 1171 01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:30,520 Speaker 1: brought up like the people that are under the umbrella 1172 01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:34,360 Speaker 1: of authority, employers, people, this and that you know, it's 1173 01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:37,480 Speaker 1: it seems like a maybe like a this isn't just 1174 01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:39,920 Speaker 1: like an off road into some little group. It's like 1175 01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:42,440 Speaker 1: this is this comes back to climate change because you 1176 01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:45,680 Speaker 1: have people that either they're they're they're concerned is the 1177 01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:48,960 Speaker 1: end of the world, either to prepare it or that 1178 01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:52,280 Speaker 1: it's coming, so they don't really care what shape the 1179 01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:56,200 Speaker 1: planets in the employee fix it all. If we just 1180 01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:58,200 Speaker 1: fix it, we have to focus on doing all this 1181 01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:02,320 Speaker 1: moral stuff can't be But yeah, the way we recycle 1182 01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:06,800 Speaker 1: or treat the environment with our waste has nothing is fine, 1183 01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:10,080 Speaker 1: because we're successful companies, so we're clearly blessed by God's 1184 01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:15,600 Speaker 1: h you know, it's just wanted to they seem like 1185 01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:17,720 Speaker 1: a tangent, but it's just there's all these things that 1186 01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:21,040 Speaker 1: that are very real to people who may not feel 1187 01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:24,440 Speaker 1: they have any sort of connection to what's what happened 1188 01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:27,480 Speaker 1: in this story that's like, well, no, this is this 1189 01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:29,880 Speaker 1: thinking that leads to this leads to a lot of 1190 01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:34,960 Speaker 1: other problems that we have because this specific religious idea 1191 01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:37,800 Speaker 1: at ideology, and obviously the quiver Full is kind of 1192 01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:40,400 Speaker 1: a more extreme expression of it, but the thoughts behind 1193 01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:44,760 Speaker 1: it are incredibly mainstream because again it being a cult 1194 01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:46,880 Speaker 1: that you don't get to the really you don't get 1195 01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:49,840 Speaker 1: to the really heart of it until you're deep into it. 1196 01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:51,880 Speaker 1: So a lot of stuff and again it's it's kind 1197 01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:57,600 Speaker 1: of it's an offshoot of something larger that's gone mainstream, 1198 01:02:57,640 --> 01:02:59,400 Speaker 1: Like you talked about with the Southern you know, the 1199 01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:02,240 Speaker 1: Southern bat Is Convention. What what's been brought up in 1200 01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:07,480 Speaker 1: past episodes about Um Evangelical coming together as a voting 1201 01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:10,960 Speaker 1: block and and throwing themselves behind the Republican Party and 1202 01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:13,800 Speaker 1: then eventually kind of being more the the main driver. 1203 01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:16,280 Speaker 1: I'm sure you can go back and look and see 1204 01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:19,240 Speaker 1: a lot of this stuff with the tea party, which 1205 01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:22,480 Speaker 1: you know it goes as a precursor to Donald Trump, 1206 01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:24,520 Speaker 1: and you see the same thing. It's like grabbing by 1207 01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:26,800 Speaker 1: the pussy. Well, you know, he's you know, he's he's 1208 01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:29,680 Speaker 1: one of us. He's it's it's you know, who hasn't 1209 01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:31,880 Speaker 1: who hasn't held a hand or grabbed a pussy? It's 1210 01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:34,000 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, who hasn't. Yeah, if you looked at 1211 01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:35,640 Speaker 1: someone with lust in your eyes, it's the same as 1212 01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:37,880 Speaker 1: assaulting somebody. So he's no worse than any of the 1213 01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:40,200 Speaker 1: rest of us. And they see him as you know, 1214 01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:43,320 Speaker 1: obviously he became president like they wanted Josh Dougar two, 1215 01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:45,840 Speaker 1: so they were going to kind of try to keep 1216 01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:48,000 Speaker 1: the way Greece for him to go and not hold 1217 01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:56,320 Speaker 1: him accountable because they see him as a ticket. Well, Sean, 1218 01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:58,640 Speaker 1: this has been bleak but important. I'm glad that you 1219 01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:01,040 Speaker 1: picked this subject. I've been on again. I've been meaning 1220 01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:03,320 Speaker 1: to kind of to deal with us at some point, 1221 01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:05,040 Speaker 1: because it turns out we actually have some of the 1222 01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:07,680 Speaker 1: same friends who have got involved in aspects of this, 1223 01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:10,280 Speaker 1: and and I've seen people like over the years kind 1224 01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:15,320 Speaker 1: of I feel like they kind of being more if 1225 01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:18,400 Speaker 1: tending to be conservative and religious, tend to slip into it. 1226 01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:21,280 Speaker 1: There's kind of and it's and it's not necessarily that 1227 01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:27,520 Speaker 1: all religion or conservatives necessarily lead to that. There's actually 1228 01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:30,200 Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of it's there's a lot of 1229 01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:32,760 Speaker 1: the great reporting on this has been done by other 1230 01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:36,560 Speaker 1: Christian even evangelical news sources who are very critical of this, 1231 01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:38,720 Speaker 1: and they're very critical of like Bill Gothard in the 1232 01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:41,560 Speaker 1: abuse in that chunk of the community. This isn't a 1233 01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:44,880 Speaker 1: problem with Christianity. This is a problem with I mean, 1234 01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:47,200 Speaker 1: it's a problem with human beings and the way religion 1235 01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:50,600 Speaker 1: generally works. It's a it's a it's a deeper problem. 1236 01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:52,640 Speaker 1: It's not just an it's not like the specific issue 1237 01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:57,560 Speaker 1: isn't Christianity. The specific issue is how people abuse each 1238 01:04:57,600 --> 01:05:01,200 Speaker 1: other and use systems, including really just systems to abuse 1239 01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:03,880 Speaker 1: each other. It's to to be to be really clear 1240 01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:06,560 Speaker 1: and to also kind of again bring people in who 1241 01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:09,520 Speaker 1: maybe not from as familiar on the religious side, more 1242 01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:13,360 Speaker 1: on the secular side. You know, think about this is 1243 01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:15,520 Speaker 1: gonna hurt, but think about Bill mar for a second. 1244 01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:18,760 Speaker 1: And you know the whole like the kind of along 1245 01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:20,720 Speaker 1: that lines of where it's like, oh, religion, you're just 1246 01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:24,000 Speaker 1: taking shots of religion. Religion is a problem. If religion 1247 01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:28,000 Speaker 1: went away, all the problems would be solved, that kind 1248 01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:31,320 Speaker 1: of that kind of thinking or posturing. It's like, well, yeah, 1249 01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:35,920 Speaker 1: people killing, like there's deaths after sporting events when the 1250 01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:39,400 Speaker 1: team won, like burning cars and flipping like people are 1251 01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:45,760 Speaker 1: gonna be people. It's the it's it's it's Christianity gets 1252 01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:48,880 Speaker 1: not singled out, but it is looked at mainly because 1253 01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:51,400 Speaker 1: of the power structure that it has within this country 1254 01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:53,240 Speaker 1: puts it right at the heart of a lot of 1255 01:05:53,240 --> 01:05:56,000 Speaker 1: the things going. And it's it's power and structures of 1256 01:05:56,040 --> 01:05:58,960 Speaker 1: power and a hierarchy that always are what enables the abuse, 1257 01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:01,080 Speaker 1: whatever forma takes. Because again, if you want to talk 1258 01:06:01,120 --> 01:06:03,240 Speaker 1: about and I think people you know, and I had 1259 01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:04,840 Speaker 1: my angry atheist years, but I think one of the 1260 01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:07,160 Speaker 1: ways in which people go wrong is thinking that it's 1261 01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:10,560 Speaker 1: something inherent to religion when it's something that's inherent to power. 1262 01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:14,800 Speaker 1: Because for example, the fucking We've done a number of 1263 01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:19,240 Speaker 1: episodes on Nexium. You know that that horrible cold, which 1264 01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:24,640 Speaker 1: was very much based in like these evolved in scientific attitudes. 1265 01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:26,800 Speaker 1: And that's at least the way they framed it was 1266 01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:29,600 Speaker 1: not like supposed to be a religious cult as it 1267 01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:31,600 Speaker 1: was supposed to be as much of like a it was. 1268 01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:33,800 Speaker 1: It was it was a rape cult. For the NPR said, 1269 01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:35,520 Speaker 1: you know, like that was the way it was framed. 1270 01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:38,920 Speaker 1: It's just anytime you give people these positions of power 1271 01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:43,520 Speaker 1: where you're investing them with um special knowledge and acknowledging 1272 01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:45,520 Speaker 1: that they have some sort of like special knowledge and 1273 01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:51,000 Speaker 1: special uh cause, and when you're saying that, like that 1274 01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:53,880 Speaker 1: person is closer to some sort of special truth that 1275 01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:57,520 Speaker 1: makes what they say and do more valuable than other people, 1276 01:06:58,040 --> 01:07:00,280 Speaker 1: you invest them with a kind of power, it will 1277 01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:03,120 Speaker 1: more often than not be used to hurt people. Yes, 1278 01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:06,200 Speaker 1: that's the way it is. You have quiver full on 1279 01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:10,320 Speaker 1: one end, and you know, I don't know Goop, yeah, 1280 01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:14,200 Speaker 1: goop nexium. Um, I mean it's again And there's an 1281 01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:17,360 Speaker 1: element of this that's like this isn't all cult behavior 1282 01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:19,240 Speaker 1: because I don't think I don't know if i'd call 1283 01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:21,840 Speaker 1: Goop a cult, but Google a number of the things 1284 01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:24,120 Speaker 1: that are toxic about Goot are also things that are 1285 01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:26,320 Speaker 1: toxic about toxic about cults in the same way that 1286 01:07:26,360 --> 01:07:28,560 Speaker 1: like a number of things that make you a successful 1287 01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:30,560 Speaker 1: stand up comedian could also make you a good cult 1288 01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:33,720 Speaker 1: leader because certain these are these are patterns that can 1289 01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:36,800 Speaker 1: be and there. Yeah, I don't know this is this 1290 01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:38,520 Speaker 1: is more of a discussion than I want to get 1291 01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:40,920 Speaker 1: into right now. But there's a lot that gets into 1292 01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:47,360 Speaker 1: why cults are deeper than religion. Colts are about some 1293 01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:50,800 Speaker 1: things very hardwired in the human mind. UM. And I 1294 01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:54,000 Speaker 1: don't think that that hierarchy is hardware. It's not hardware 1295 01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:56,560 Speaker 1: is the wrong way to put it. Um. We have 1296 01:07:56,640 --> 01:08:00,360 Speaker 1: been abusing each other using systems of power for you know, 1297 01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:04,479 Speaker 1: ten thousand is years, if not much longer. Um. And 1298 01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:10,200 Speaker 1: there's a reason why. And it's because our brains are 1299 01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:12,720 Speaker 1: vulnerable to that in the same way that certain people's 1300 01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:16,519 Speaker 1: brains are, you know, vulnerable to heroin or alcohol or whatever. 1301 01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:21,000 Speaker 1: Everyone's brains are vulnerable to cults. It just depends on 1302 01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:24,920 Speaker 1: finding the right cult. Um. And it's my I think 1303 01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:27,439 Speaker 1: the reason that Christian cults are much more dangerous is 1304 01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:29,840 Speaker 1: in our society is because they have so much more 1305 01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:32,639 Speaker 1: political power, because there's so much more mainstream that makes 1306 01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:35,960 Speaker 1: it easier to hide, right, because a lot of nexium 1307 01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:40,600 Speaker 1: gets busted up much quicker than Bill Gothard does. You know. Um, 1308 01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:43,360 Speaker 1: but that's not anything inherent to religion. That's something inherent 1309 01:08:43,400 --> 01:08:45,679 Speaker 1: to the level of power we give that specific religion 1310 01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:50,080 Speaker 1: in our society. Yeah, it's more under an accepted umbrella. Yeah, yeah, 1311 01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:52,759 Speaker 1: back to umbrella's. So, Sean, you wanna you wanna plug 1312 01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:57,680 Speaker 1: anything before we uhh yeah, I got me personally, I 1313 01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:00,760 Speaker 1: don't have like on my if. I don't do much 1314 01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:03,680 Speaker 1: on social media. A couple of things I would like 1315 01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:06,519 Speaker 1: to plug that are just near and dear to me, 1316 01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:11,040 Speaker 1: Aside from you know Ted Wheeler every calling Ted Wheeler Com. 1317 01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:15,840 Speaker 1: There is a place in down by Los Angeles. It's 1318 01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:19,280 Speaker 1: l A Guinea Pig Rescue. It can be l a 1319 01:09:19,280 --> 01:09:22,200 Speaker 1: Guinea Pig Rescue dot com. Uh. They have like a 1320 01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:26,439 Speaker 1: YouTube channel I have. I have had four guinea pigs. 1321 01:09:26,479 --> 01:09:29,880 Speaker 1: I still have three with me. Um. They're they're sweet 1322 01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:33,880 Speaker 1: little creatures. Uh. They there's a thing they do called popcorning. 1323 01:09:33,960 --> 01:09:36,320 Speaker 1: It's like they get super excited. It's like a full 1324 01:09:36,320 --> 01:09:41,280 Speaker 1: body joy gasm. And uh, it's one of those things 1325 01:09:41,320 --> 01:09:43,559 Speaker 1: where it's like with that and I've had hamsters too. 1326 01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:46,559 Speaker 1: There's this people kind of think it's like, oh, it's 1327 01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:49,320 Speaker 1: it's a starter pit, like because it's they're gentle or 1328 01:09:49,360 --> 01:09:51,519 Speaker 1: easy enough a kid can take care of them. It's like, no, 1329 01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:55,880 Speaker 1: they're still complex creatures with big personalities and specific needs. 1330 01:09:56,920 --> 01:10:00,280 Speaker 1: So l a guinea pig rescue so kids get them 1331 01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:03,840 Speaker 1: and then can't take you in. Total problem all over again. Yeah, 1332 01:10:03,920 --> 01:10:05,920 Speaker 1: and they have Like one thing that people don't always 1333 01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:09,360 Speaker 1: realize with guinea pigs is they are unlike hamsters, where 1334 01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:10,920 Speaker 1: you can have them by themselves and they do their 1335 01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:14,240 Speaker 1: own little thing. Guinea pigs are very social creatures, to 1336 01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:18,160 Speaker 1: the point where there are there are laws in at 1337 01:10:18,200 --> 01:10:20,600 Speaker 1: least Belgium and Switzerland that like pet stores have to 1338 01:10:20,640 --> 01:10:25,120 Speaker 1: sell them in pairs because they get very, very depressed 1339 01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:29,800 Speaker 1: if they're by themselves, and I would split them up, 1340 01:10:30,320 --> 01:10:31,880 Speaker 1: and you know, it's like they have to And there's 1341 01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:33,680 Speaker 1: also you have to make sure they're bonding and this 1342 01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:36,800 Speaker 1: and that. But anyway they do, Ellie Guinea Pig Rescue does. 1343 01:10:36,840 --> 01:10:41,880 Speaker 1: It's like two thousand undred adoptions a year. Right now, 1344 01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:44,240 Speaker 1: they're in a bit of a struggle because they just 1345 01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:48,120 Speaker 1: rescued almost two hundred guinea pigs. Was this like handemic. 1346 01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:52,200 Speaker 1: It was in north northern California. I want to say, 1347 01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:54,799 Speaker 1: it was like someone that was like grazing guinea pigs 1348 01:10:54,800 --> 01:10:57,880 Speaker 1: to feed to pythons where they were or it was 1349 01:10:57,920 --> 01:11:01,559 Speaker 1: like pythons they right, or they were like hoarding them 1350 01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:03,519 Speaker 1: or whatever, but they weren't taking care of so they 1351 01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:06,559 Speaker 1: were and so and and to the point where there's 1352 01:11:07,240 --> 01:11:10,639 Speaker 1: a lot of them are special needs. Um, some may 1353 01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:13,240 Speaker 1: never be adopted and they'll just be they'll make sure 1354 01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:15,120 Speaker 1: they're taking care of for the rest of their lives. 1355 01:11:15,479 --> 01:11:17,960 Speaker 1: But you know, it's like because they when they're smushed together, 1356 01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:20,639 Speaker 1: they were given the wrong food, so like they're messed up, teeth, 1357 01:11:21,040 --> 01:11:26,120 Speaker 1: their their eyes missing because they've getting and it's it's 1358 01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:29,360 Speaker 1: really bad. Um. So what is this place called again, 1359 01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:32,639 Speaker 1: l A Guinea Pigs Guinea Pig Rescue. Well, so if 1360 01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:35,920 Speaker 1: you help out the l A Guinea Pig Rescue, Yeah, 1361 01:11:35,960 --> 01:11:40,200 Speaker 1: and like I said, there's videos on that. They have 1362 01:11:40,320 --> 01:11:43,280 Speaker 1: a YouTube channel. And even if you're not you know, 1363 01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:45,240 Speaker 1: in the l A area, because you can volunteer and 1364 01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:48,800 Speaker 1: help out there even if you don't like aren't able 1365 01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:51,280 Speaker 1: to you know, send a couple of bucks to help them. 1366 01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:54,040 Speaker 1: Just looking at the videos or like if you're gonna 1367 01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:56,599 Speaker 1: get a guinea pig, like looking at these because they're 1368 01:11:56,640 --> 01:11:58,479 Speaker 1: they're there too, because they want the animals to live 1369 01:11:58,479 --> 01:12:04,799 Speaker 1: their best lives. So, uh, just informing yourself and being 1370 01:12:04,960 --> 01:12:09,200 Speaker 1: prepared and taking care of of of of the animals. 1371 01:12:09,240 --> 01:12:11,479 Speaker 1: It's kind of like you saw with the pandemic people 1372 01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:13,760 Speaker 1: got a lot of dogs and put them back. It's 1373 01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:18,080 Speaker 1: there's this I mean, people, if you understand the concept 1374 01:12:18,160 --> 01:12:22,120 Speaker 1: of fua graw, how terrible that is. This is like 1375 01:12:22,240 --> 01:12:25,040 Speaker 1: emotional fua graw where you're just stuffing an animal with 1376 01:12:25,080 --> 01:12:27,640 Speaker 1: your sadness, sadness to feel the hole, to fill the 1377 01:12:27,680 --> 01:12:31,479 Speaker 1: hole inside yourself. And it's like that's it's it's not 1378 01:12:31,560 --> 01:12:33,800 Speaker 1: good and it's going back to cycles of abuse and 1379 01:12:33,880 --> 01:12:36,519 Speaker 1: human behavior. It's like it's just down cycling the abuse 1380 01:12:36,560 --> 01:12:39,439 Speaker 1: onto animals when they can be a huge source of 1381 01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:42,040 Speaker 1: unconditional love and helping you break out of your cycles. 1382 01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:44,759 Speaker 1: They help me a lot with like depression, anxiety, stuff 1383 01:12:44,760 --> 01:12:48,920 Speaker 1: like that. It's an a guinea pig. Yeah, so l 1384 01:12:48,960 --> 01:12:52,040 Speaker 1: a guinea pig rescue. One other thing. Uh So, there 1385 01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:55,000 Speaker 1: is a movie that came out it's about one hour. 1386 01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:59,479 Speaker 1: It's a documentary came out in November. It's called The 1387 01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:04,599 Speaker 1: Forgotten Italian. I have a friend who I met through 1388 01:13:05,040 --> 01:13:08,320 Speaker 1: my brother when they were in high school. Uh, he 1389 01:13:08,680 --> 01:13:12,719 Speaker 1: was in the Marines, went and fought in Afghanistan. Last 1390 01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:16,160 Speaker 1: day there is like doing uh like they're having him 1391 01:13:16,160 --> 01:13:19,640 Speaker 1: show the patrol um and they're like, oh, let's go 1392 01:13:19,720 --> 01:13:22,439 Speaker 1: down this way, which is not a way they usually go. 1393 01:13:22,840 --> 01:13:26,799 Speaker 1: So I E d uh he has ended up losing 1394 01:13:26,840 --> 01:13:31,479 Speaker 1: both legs. Um. And it's so the the area where 1395 01:13:31,479 --> 01:13:33,400 Speaker 1: they were at and this isn't two thousand and eight 1396 01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:36,120 Speaker 1: in Afghanistan, it was It's about the size of Oregon, 1397 01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:40,040 Speaker 1: I believe. And they were past the supply lines, they 1398 01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:43,280 Speaker 1: were past air support. They were just left out there. 1399 01:13:43,760 --> 01:13:47,640 Speaker 1: And why it's called a forgotten battalion? Is it hash 1400 01:13:47,920 --> 01:13:49,479 Speaker 1: as far as I know, and I hope this is 1401 01:13:49,520 --> 01:13:52,799 Speaker 1: true because it's terrible news if it isn't the highest 1402 01:13:53,080 --> 01:13:57,120 Speaker 1: suicide rate in the Armed forces four times the average 1403 01:13:57,120 --> 01:13:59,840 Speaker 1: for the Armed forces and like fourteen times the average 1404 01:13:59,840 --> 01:14:05,760 Speaker 1: and American But why I'm I'm drawing people towards this. 1405 01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:12,240 Speaker 1: So Chris Bride, that's the guy's name. He Uh amazing guy. 1406 01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:16,800 Speaker 1: He's he's worked. He it's it's a very direct and 1407 01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:26,160 Speaker 1: blunt documentary about dealing with suicide, about dealing with people 1408 01:14:26,160 --> 01:14:28,880 Speaker 1: out so because he you know, he's very directed. It's like, yeah, 1409 01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:30,280 Speaker 1: I know I wake up and I want to kill 1410 01:14:30,320 --> 01:14:33,479 Speaker 1: myself every day. You but he he is, like he's 1411 01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:36,120 Speaker 1: all anywhere. He's been like San Antonio and the v 1412 01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:38,080 Speaker 1: A up here, he was an organ for a while. 1413 01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:42,640 Speaker 1: The documentary is actually filmed on the Organ coast. He 1414 01:14:42,680 --> 01:14:45,080 Speaker 1: would always try to, you know, do stuff to to 1415 01:14:46,200 --> 01:14:48,760 Speaker 1: kind of help out the other veterans. Uh he's doing 1416 01:14:48,760 --> 01:14:50,639 Speaker 1: this is like they went on like a fishing trip 1417 01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:53,519 Speaker 1: on the coast and it's basically they all get together, 1418 01:14:53,600 --> 01:14:56,840 Speaker 1: they talk about it. It's been super super helpful for 1419 01:14:57,640 --> 01:15:03,360 Speaker 1: all the u UM, all the soldiers involved. It's like 1420 01:15:03,400 --> 01:15:06,080 Speaker 1: a couple of people that had worked with him wanted 1421 01:15:06,120 --> 01:15:09,519 Speaker 1: to do this documentary because of the change that he 1422 01:15:09,560 --> 01:15:11,599 Speaker 1: had been able to affect. And again, it's it's very 1423 01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:15,879 Speaker 1: it's it's b it's not it's I feel like sometimes 1424 01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:19,720 Speaker 1: we we're not always as direct and realistic and not 1425 01:15:19,800 --> 01:15:22,519 Speaker 1: in like a a bleak, terrible blunt sor but it 1426 01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:24,680 Speaker 1: just basically like, no, this is the reality. This is 1427 01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:28,080 Speaker 1: how they deal with it. Um, and so just kind 1428 01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:32,679 Speaker 1: of soot that battalion, the Forgotten Battalion. You can find 1429 01:15:32,720 --> 01:15:37,280 Speaker 1: it on Apple or Amazon. I would prefer Apple over Amazon, 1430 01:15:37,439 --> 01:15:41,360 Speaker 1: just given the company. Yeah yeah you yeah, you're picking 1431 01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:46,040 Speaker 1: yeah yeah yeah, um Tim, Apple hasn't gone to space yet, 1432 01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:49,680 Speaker 1: so I generally with you there. Um yeah, okay, they 1433 01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:52,760 Speaker 1: Forgotten Battalion, the l A Guinea Pig Rescue and um 1434 01:15:52,840 --> 01:15:55,519 Speaker 1: check out Total Recall PDX, especially if you're in the 1435 01:15:55,520 --> 01:15:58,840 Speaker 1: Portland area and you wanna sign on to recall our 1436 01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:02,160 Speaker 1: shitty mayor um Sean. Thank you so much both for 1437 01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:05,720 Speaker 1: you donnation, for the episode idea and for helping me 1438 01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:12,360 Speaker 1: make bring it to life for the Frankenstein Monster of Sadness. 1439 01:16:12,479 --> 01:16:17,479 Speaker 1: Yeah all right, well that is an episode. Bam.