1 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't 2 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: a liability, it's a real gift. 3 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 2: If we don't know something about ourselves at this point 4 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 2: in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know. 5 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 2: If you can die before you die, then you can 6 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 2: really live. There's a wisdom at death's door. I thought 7 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 2: I was insane. Yeah, and I didn't know what to 8 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 2: do because there was no Internet. 9 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel like everything 10 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: is hard. Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a 11 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: human first and a licensed therapist second. And right now 12 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: I'm inviting you into conversations that I hope encourage you 13 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: to become more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, 14 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: and the world around you. 15 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 2: Welcome to You Need Therapy. 16 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: Hi guysans, and welcome back to another new episode of 17 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: You Need Therapy podcast. My name is Kat and I 18 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 1: am the host. And before we get started, before we 19 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: jump into anything, I want to give the quick reminder 20 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: that I always do that although this podcast is called 21 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: You Need Therapy and I am a therapist, this is not. 22 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 2: A substitution for therapy. 23 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: And at the same time, it might encourage you to 24 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: go to therapy and it might encourage you to talk 25 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: about something specific in your own therapeutic process. So now 26 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: that we have that out of the way, let's get 27 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 1: into the episode. This week, it's just me, me and 28 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: you and all the other people listening, and I have 29 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: been wanting to do this episode for a long time, 30 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: so I'm excited that it's finally here. We are going 31 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: to talk about something called the drama triangle. It's also 32 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: known as the Cartmann triangle. This is a way to 33 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: explain a very common pattern of unhealthy relationship dynamics. If 34 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: you're my client, you've probably heard of this before. You've 35 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: probably seen me draw the triangle before. We've probably talked 36 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: about it before. If you are not my client, you 37 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: might have still heard of this before, and we are 38 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: going to dive into the depths of it today. It's 39 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: something that can really apply to anybody. So even if 40 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: you are like, I don't know what that is and 41 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: I don't have drama in my life one, I don't 42 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: know if that's true. I feel like there's an essence 43 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 1: of drama in everybody's life. But really give this episode 44 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,839 Speaker 1: a listen with like your ears wide open, because there's 45 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: a lot of goodness in it. Now, Like I said, 46 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: this is often referred to as the Cartman triangle because 47 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 1: it was created by a man named Stephen Cartman. And 48 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: this is, in a nutshell, a dynamic model of social 49 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: interaction and in that the conflict that arises within and 50 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:45,519 Speaker 1: it was like birthed out of something called transactional analysis. 51 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: This transactional analysis is based on the idea that everyone 52 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: has these three ego states. Now side note, transactional analysis 53 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: would be a whole podcast that, like I am not 54 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: the expert to do alone, but there's so much in 55 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 1: it that it can So I'm really like moving this 56 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: into like the smallest little bubble just so I can 57 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: like explain this and move onto the drama triangle. So 58 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: if you're interested in it, know that, like there's more 59 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: to it. In these three ego states, they're the parents, 60 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: the adult, and the child, and those ego states are 61 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 1: used with different concepts to analyze. 62 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 2: How people communicate. 63 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: And in TA, they use the idea of games to 64 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: describe common forms of interaction that help the players involved. 65 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: So the people in the game express things that otherwise 66 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: would be like frowned upon, looked down upon, and when 67 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: I say games in TA, they describe a game as 68 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: a social interaction containing a series of transactions that involve 69 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: moving through different roles to get to an expected outcome. Now, 70 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: Stephen Cartman took this idea and combined it with his 71 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: love and interest in sports. So he saw and he 72 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: knew that like coaches used diagrams and pictures to explain 73 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: things to the players on a team. So he combined 74 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: the social game theory from TA with this idea of 75 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: diagrams and using that to explain interaction and created the 76 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: drama triangle. Now, as we go through this, I really 77 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: want to encourage you to just be open because while 78 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: this is a very unhealthy relationship dynamic, it's also one 79 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: that we have most likely all been a part of, 80 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: myself included, So this is in no way something that 81 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: it was created to place blame or create. 82 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 2: Shame within somebody. 83 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 1: It is a way to understand the patterns of communication 84 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: that don't work, so then we can go find ones 85 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: that do work and get our needs really meant an 86 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 1: authentic way. And one of the reasons that the dynamic 87 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 1: involved in the drama triangle exists is because very often 88 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: we get taught that to get our needs met, we 89 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: have to like go sideways, and what I mean by 90 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: that is you can't directly ask for what you need. 91 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,559 Speaker 1: This then turns in to a game and it brings 92 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: in these these ideas of manipulation. It's not even like 93 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: this mean manipulation. It's not ill intentioned, but it's like 94 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: the only way to get your needs met because you 95 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: were taught you can't ask directly. So basically, when we're 96 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 1: on the drama triangle, we're just essentially engaging in some 97 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: form of manipulation. And if we play the tape all 98 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: the way through, which you'll see, it's not going to 99 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: end well, it's not actually going to get you in 100 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: the long run what you need in a sustainable way. Now, 101 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: there are three roles in the drama triangle, because you 102 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: know a triangle has like three points, right, So there's 103 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: three roles. Keep in mind that these are roles that 104 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: people unconsciously play. There are times in life when these 105 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 1: roles are things that we are actually in and for 106 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: the sake of this episode, we are not talking about 107 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: those times. And this will make more sense as I 108 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: explain the roles. But for example, one of the roles 109 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 1: is victim, and there are times when we are playing 110 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: a victim role in order to get our needs met 111 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: in an indirect way. That is what we're talking about today, 112 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: not when we are like actually in these victim areas. 113 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: Also side note, if this stuff is confusing you at 114 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: any point today, then I want you to know that 115 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 1: you're probably understanding it at the same time that you're confused, 116 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: because this is chaotic and it's a chaotic way to interact, 117 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: and it feels that way when you're in it. So 118 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: if you're listening and you're like, that sounds chaotic, what 119 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: I can't keep up, well, you're probably getting it because 120 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: that's what it is. So let's go back to the roles, 121 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: the three roles. We have a persecutor, we have a rescuer, 122 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: and then we have the victim. And I went to 123 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: this training years ago. I wish I could remember the facilitator, 124 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: but she was explaining something and she was using this 125 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,559 Speaker 1: as the basis of it, and she created three different 126 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: names that she uses when she explains the drama triangle 127 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: to families, and that is for the persecutor, she uses 128 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,919 Speaker 1: blaming bully. For the rescuer, she uses bossy, helper, and 129 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: for the victim, she uses helpless baby. So if you 130 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: are explaining this to a family, these are easier kind 131 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 1: of roles to understand. Sometimes one thing too, I want 132 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 1: to mention each of us usually have like a startgate 133 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: position or our go to comfy spot that gets us 134 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: involved in the triangle. However, what happens is there ends 135 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: up being this competition to eventually be the victim, which 136 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: maybe right now you're like, ooh, why would I want 137 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: to be that? But hang on and it will definitely 138 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: become more clear. But just know that, like even if 139 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: we jump on here as a rescuer, a lot of 140 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: times we will end up in a victim role no 141 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: matter what. Now, each role has its own benefits, and 142 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: each role has its own rewards. Each one also has 143 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: its own problematic features, and we're going to go into 144 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: each one and identify those. So let's start with the 145 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: persecutor or the blaming bully. So this seems to be 146 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: like everyone's least favorite, but also it isn't that hard 147 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: to find yourself here, especially after you've been on the 148 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: triangle for a little bit. The persecutor or the blaming 149 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: bully causes a significant amount of damage but they do 150 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: not take responsibility, to take zero responsibility for that damage, 151 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: they're essentially labeled the bad guy. These people are more controlling, 152 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: they tend to be more angry, and their job is 153 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: to keep the victim oppressed. They can't be vulnerable because 154 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: if they do, then they risk being a victim themselves. 155 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: What they'll do is they'll yell, they're criticized, but they 156 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: don't actually help fix the problem. Their role is not 157 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: to fix the problem. They essentially keep the problem going. 158 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,239 Speaker 1: And this person always needs to be right. The people 159 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: that jump into your startgate, they can seem very narcissistic. 160 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: They are literally bullies, and they're also tend to be 161 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: pretty defensive. This and if we're talking about those ego 162 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: states we were talking about, this one kind of aligns 163 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: with the critical parent. So the next role is the 164 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: rescuer role. And I know this one sounds nice. You're like, 165 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: if I had to be one, I would be the rescuer. 166 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: And to be honest in a healthy way that is 167 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: not involved in this game. It's okay to rescue somebody, 168 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: and like we can be helpers and do all of 169 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: that in an okay way. 170 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 2: But when we're talking about the rescuer. 171 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: Here it's really not okay, And this is why the 172 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: rescuer known really as like the nice guy. Right, so 173 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: they do take on the good copy role here adjacent 174 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: to the bad copy role of the persecutor. This role 175 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: involves always helping and always trying to fix the victim 176 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: who never seems to get fixed. Now more than likely, 177 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: this is a good person, right. Initially this is like 178 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: a good person, good intentions, but it becomes problematic when 179 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: they end up draining themselves. So they will like give, give, give, give, give, give, 180 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: give to save the victim, and they end up neglecting 181 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 1: their own needs in their own life and they become 182 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: like this martyrer and it's kind of like your classic 183 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: like codependent in a sense. This role allows people to 184 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 1: feel important and self righteous. Right, so if I'm the rescuer, 185 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: I feel pretty good about myself and it kind of 186 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: like clears and like feeds your ego. The problem, though, 187 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,559 Speaker 1: is the attempt to fix the problem, which is the victim, 188 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: doesn't I actually work, and then the victim becomes the 189 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: persecutor and can end up blaming the rescuer because it's 190 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: never the victim's fault. And then the rescuer becomes a 191 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: victim themselves, and we'll say something along the lines of 192 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: like I was only trying to help, like this is 193 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: not my fault. And then somebody has to come rescue 194 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: the initial rescuer and it becomes a whole mess, which 195 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: we'll get into like the dance, and I'll give you 196 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: an example as we go on. Like I said, these 197 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: people work really hard to help and caretake and they 198 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: end up neglecting their own needs. And they can use 199 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: guilt to keep the victims dependent on them, or they'll 200 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: end up using guilt towards themselves to keep themselves in 201 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: the role, like they'll guilt trip themselves to keep. 202 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 2: Themselves in the rescuer role to stay on this triangle. 203 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 2: Rescuers are usually like overworked. 204 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: They're usually pretty tired, and they can get pretty frustrated, 205 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: and that's what kind of like gets them into. 206 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 2: The persecutor spot. 207 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,839 Speaker 1: Now let's focus on the victim for a little bit. 208 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: This is like the star of the show because everyone 209 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: is really fighting for this role, even if they don't 210 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: think they are or they don't really want it, they 211 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: really are fighting for it. Now the drama triangle becomes 212 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: this game when you play the role of the victim, 213 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: even if you are not a victim. Like I said 214 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: earlier before we got into all this, this is adjacent 215 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 1: to the role of the wounded inner child. If we 216 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 1: go back to those ego states from TA, everyone really 217 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: wants to say it's not my fault. Everyone really wants 218 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: to be able to claim zero responsibility because I kind 219 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: of want to, like pause and ask you why you 220 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: think that, But I'm just gonna tell you this is 221 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: because then they don't have to do anything. They can 222 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: be very carefree. They can like deny responsibility for their 223 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: circumstances or their ability to change their circumstances. And while 224 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: that might be like ig, I wouldn't want that, Like 225 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: I don't like feeling stuck, what people do like feeling 226 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: is that they don't have to do the hard work 227 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:00,839 Speaker 1: to get unstuck, because a lot of times, to get 228 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,319 Speaker 1: out of this victim stance or this victim place, you're 229 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: going to have to do something that goes against some 230 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: of the rules and roles and norms that you've been 231 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: shown growing up. What can be really frustrating for the 232 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: rescuer is that a lot of times anything anyone says 233 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: to the victim is not going to work. 234 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 2: They'll always have an. 235 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: Excuse, always, always, always, always that can't do that, That 236 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 1: won't work. I've already tried that. No, I can't like 237 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: a lot of that. When we're here, it's hard to 238 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: own our own behaviors. And if you can stay here, 239 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,439 Speaker 1: like I said, then you don't have to do anything. 240 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: And that sounds really nice to a lot of people. 241 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: The victim really doesn't actually want to do anything. They 242 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: may not acknowledge that. Most people will not acknowledge that, 243 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 1: but it's also true at the same time, and when 244 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:44,839 Speaker 1: somebody tells them what to do, like I said, they 245 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: will find an excuse so they can stay there. And 246 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 1: if you are a rescuer, this is so painful, and 247 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 1: you will wear yourself out because of this, often to 248 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: the point where you can just get completely fed up. 249 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: And then you become a persecutor, and then you the 250 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: victim for you acting out, and then you're the victim 251 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: because you can't help it, and because you can't help 252 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: the original victim help themselves, and then the original victim 253 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: becomes responsible for caretaking their original rescuers feelings. 254 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 2: But are we confused yet? 255 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: Do we feel chaotic yet probably now okay, back to 256 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: the victim. They will go out and look for a savior, 257 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: so they are like on the hunt for them. They 258 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: will not say that, it will not be blatant again, 259 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:28,839 Speaker 1: but they will do that. And if someone refuses or 260 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: fails to do so, then it puts them in a 261 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: persecutor role. If the person that they've chosen to be 262 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: the rescuer or the person that chooses to rescue isn't 263 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: able to rescue them, then the victim turns them into 264 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: a persecutor. 265 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 2: Here's the thing. 266 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,359 Speaker 1: They don't want to just be like validated for their experience. 267 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: They want somebody to fix them, right. The validation isn't enough. 268 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: It's like okay, yeah, I know, and do something about it. 269 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: Here's the thing about being a victim though, when you 270 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: are in the victim role, When you get in that role, 271 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: you get to a spot where you can actually your 272 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: needs met without directly asking for that to be done. So, 273 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: if you were one of those people who grew up 274 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: in an experience were directly asking for your needs or 275 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: asking for what you want or any of that wasn't okay. 276 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: This gets you to a place where, like it feels 277 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: like you can finally get what you need. This is 278 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: why it's such a coveted position. Now, not all victims 279 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: are created equal. There are different kinds of victims. There's 280 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: two main ones I want to explain. One the pathetic victim. 281 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: They take on them more like woll is me type 282 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: of role, Like they have this vibe of like, oh 283 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: life again, life happens to me. I can't help it. 284 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: It's so sad and you it's kind of like those 285 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: people that depending on who you are, it's either the 286 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: people that you're like, oh I cannot stand that, or 287 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: it's like, oh, I feel so bad for them. I 288 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: would do anything for them. Then you have the angry victim. 289 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: This one, like low Key, tries to appear very powerful 290 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: and uses more of like a guilt and shame tactic 291 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: to help get people to do it they need them 292 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: to do now. Regardless of either of those, these players 293 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: in the game both want there to be someone else 294 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: to blame for their circumstances, and they are literally fishing 295 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: for a rescuer and hoping for them to come like 296 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: take the bait of whatever it is that they're putting 297 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: out there. So the game, those are the roles the 298 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,359 Speaker 1: game that keeps this triangle and action is basically rotating 299 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: through these roles, which are essentially learned from the individual's 300 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: like family of origin, like the family and the like 301 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: the group of people that you grew up with. What 302 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: gives the triangle a lot of power and significance and 303 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: creates a dynamic where people are just cycling through the 304 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: roles and never getting out of this is that victims 305 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: depend on a savior. Rescuers then like long for like 306 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: a basket case and somebody that they can go and 307 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: help and fix, and persecutors need a scapegoat. They are 308 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: all using each other to get their own needs met 309 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: in a very indirect way, and there are payoffs and 310 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,359 Speaker 1: there are costs for this. So some of the payoffs 311 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: the victim they will get taken care of right, someone 312 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: will care about them. They'll get some kind of need 313 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: met in that the rescuers they're gonna feel good like 314 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: they get to feel like to get some self worth 315 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: because they get to help and make a difference, And 316 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: the persecutors they get to feel superior. So if they's 317 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: somebody that feels really low and bad about themselves, this 318 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: is a way for them to like get above. And 319 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: this is why I really like that name, the blaming bully, 320 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: because this is like what we know about bullies is 321 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: like I know, growing up, I thought the bullies were 322 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: the people that like, felt really good about themselves. But 323 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: a lot of times bullies are people that feel really 324 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: icky about themselves and they have to put people down 325 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: to feel better about who they are. They have to 326 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: be above somebody they can't be even because they definitely 327 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: feel below. However, like I said, there's also a cost 328 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: even though there are benefits, and the cost here is 329 00:16:55,720 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: that this universally perpetuates an unhealthy relational dynamic, and you 330 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 1: will never actually get your needs met authentically for a 331 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: sustainable period of time, and you're going to have to 332 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: keep engaging in this unhealthy pattern to have your needs 333 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: met again. If this is how you get them met. Now, 334 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: this can become like a trap at the same time, 335 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: because the players here are acting all these things out 336 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: to meet personal needs, and they very seldom are able 337 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: to zoom out see the whole picture and see how 338 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: they are actually keeping this cycle in play. It feels 339 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: like they have to play the game to get their 340 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: needs met. But what they don't realize is that they're 341 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: part of the reason that they have to play the 342 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: game to get their needs met. 343 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 2: And if they. 344 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: Zoomed out and saw their role, they could get off 345 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: of this triangle. And we're going to talk about that now. 346 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: We can trace a lot of the natural tendency to 347 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 1: keep this going back to this idea called victim consciousness, 348 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: which is something that, along with transactional analysis, could be 349 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: its whole own podcast. So I'm not going to talk 350 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 1: a lot about it, but I am to give you 351 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:01,400 Speaker 1: in a nutshell. 352 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:01,479 Speaker 2: What it is. 353 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: So in short, this is the experience of like life 354 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: happening to you versus you playing an active role in 355 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: your life. And this doesn't just apply to you when 356 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: something bad happens. It applies to you when something good 357 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 1: happens too, Like you can trace back good things to like, 358 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: oh I was just lucky, versus like I worked really hard, 359 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: or I am really good at this, or I deserve this. 360 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 1: It just is kind of like, oh it just happened. 361 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 2: I don't really know. 362 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 1: It's a very helpless and hopeless way to live. But 363 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: also it lacks that responsibility, which is something that is 364 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: very attractive to a lot of people. So with victim 365 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: consciousness and play competition for the victim role helps keep 366 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: the triangle alive. Each player secretly strategizes like some kind 367 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: of way to get into that role, because, like I said, 368 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: in the victim role, that's when you actually get to 369 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: have those like real needs met without directly having to ask, 370 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: and then you can blame other people if it doesn't 371 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 1: work out right. This is it's most evident in these 372 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 1: dysfunctional families where it was not okay for directly asking 373 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: for what you need, and directly asking for what you 374 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: need would like result in something like opposite. 375 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 2: Of really what you were looking for. 376 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: It could be shame, it could be guilt. It could 377 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: just be like being shown over and over again that 378 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: like that's not okay or that that's not possible. It 379 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 1: doesn't work out, so you stop doing it and you 380 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 1: find another way to do it. And often this is 381 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 1: the case because in these families whatever was needed was 382 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: like scarce or wasn't very present, it was hard to find, 383 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: meaning that there is this feeling that there's not enough 384 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: of what people are longing for to go around, so 385 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: you can't ask for it because it's almost like that 386 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: would be a little selfish and that would elicit some 387 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 1: kind of panic. 388 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 2: Right. 389 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: This is also the result of messages we receive in 390 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: our culture of what is okay and what isn't okay 391 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: to ask for what roles are we supposed to play 392 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: and how are we supposed to play those roles? For example, 393 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: gender roles have a huge impact on on women's feelings 394 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 1: and their ability and right to be like assertive and 395 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 1: just like be direct. So what happens is a lot 396 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: of times women can become more passive and can feel 397 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 1: more comfortable playing like a victim in order to get 398 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: whatever it is that they need or they're looking for. 399 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 1: And as I'm saying this, the first thing that's jumping 400 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 1: into my head is this idea of playing dumb in 401 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: order to get like a need of attention met by 402 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: let's say a man. While men they are so allowed 403 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 1: to be assertive, and they may meet their need of 404 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 1: like self worth and validation by rescuing a woman from 405 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: their inability to use like let's say a hammer. Right, 406 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: So men are allowed to be assertive and we can 407 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: fix things, and we can build things, and so like 408 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: they might get this need met of self worth and 409 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: validation and be needed by playing into a woman's role 410 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: where they're like, oh, I can't I don't know how 411 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,239 Speaker 1: to do that. I don't know why I made up 412 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: the woman's sound like that, but like that's sometimes how 413 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: it sounds. And at the same time, that woman might 414 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: be playing a role. 415 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 2: She might totally know how to use a. 416 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 1: Hammer and how to drill something and how to do 417 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: this and how to do that. But to get that attention, 418 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: she has to play herself down and can't be assertive 419 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: because the man wants to be assertive. So then it 420 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: invites him in, and then there he gets worth, she 421 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 1: gets attention. They both get some kind of weird and 422 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 1: authentic connection, kind of like the damsel in distress kind 423 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 1: of ideas. What I just try to explain, So I 424 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: want to give an example of how these roles rotate 425 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 1: really quickly and how you can play like a bunch 426 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,479 Speaker 1: of different roles. So I want to give you an 427 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: example of what these roles can look like when they 428 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: move around and when there's a bunch of people on 429 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: the triangle and they're all shifting roles based on what's 430 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 1: happening in the situation. So I'm taking this example. I 431 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,040 Speaker 1: did not come up with this. This comes from the 432 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: book How to Break Free of the Drama Triangle and 433 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 1: Victim Consciousness, And it's written by Barry K. Winehold and 434 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: Janey B. Winehold, And this book is awesome And a 435 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: lot of the information from this podcast is actually from 436 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: this book. So if you want more, I would go 437 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: get this book, and I would also read it slowly 438 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: because it's a lot of information, has a lot of 439 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: heady information. But here is an example of a family 440 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: in the drama triangle. They also break these into acts 441 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: or six acts. This is act one. Dad comes home 442 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: from work to find his children in the family room 443 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 1: watching television and eating snacks, Moms in the kitchen drinking 444 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: a cup of coffee and reading the newspaper. This domestic 445 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: scene does not match the expectations that Dad had on 446 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 1: his drive home. He fantasized that the house would be quiet, 447 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,199 Speaker 1: that children would be in their rooms doing homework, and 448 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: mom would have dinner prepared and maybe a cold drink 449 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: waiting for him. When Dad opens the front door, he 450 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: finds things are not as he imagined. He assumes the 451 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: persecutor role when he vents his pent up frustrations from 452 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: work at the children. This is in quotes You're supposed 453 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: to be in your rooms doing your homework. You know 454 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: the rules. The children look up from the television, stunned 455 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: by Dad's sharp tone. Feeling persecuted by father, they respond 456 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: as victims, well, Mom said it was okay for us 457 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: to watch TV. Mom then comes to the living room 458 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 1: after hearing the raised voices, and the children look to 459 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: their mother for help. She assumes the role as the 460 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,199 Speaker 1: rescuer when she says to Dad, the kids were just 461 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,679 Speaker 1: relaxing after being at school all day. This is end 462 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 1: of act one, Act two. The second act opens at 463 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: the point where Mom moves from the rescuer to the 464 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: persecutor role and attacks dad, Why do you have to 465 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 1: come home every night? 466 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 2: And yell at the kids. 467 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: Dad rotates into the victim role and the children quickly 468 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: pick up the rescuer role. They turn off the TV 469 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: and say we're going to our room store homework. This 470 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: is the end of act two. Act three. Dad shifts 471 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: to the persecutor role and attacks mom. Why in the 472 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 1: heck did you let the kids watch TV? And why 473 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: don't you have dinner ready? What have you been doing 474 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 1: since you got home from work? You knew I'd be hungry? 475 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,199 Speaker 1: Mom now rotates into the victim role. Meanwhile, the daughter, 476 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: here's her parents arguing in the kitchen, and she comes 477 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: running in to rescue. I'll help you get dinner ready 478 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: mom end of Act three. 479 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 2: Act four. 480 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: Dad, sensing that he looks like the bad guy, tries 481 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 1: to rescue by saying, why don't we all just order 482 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: a pizza or something and not worry about getting dinner ready. 483 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: Act five, Mom, who hasn't yet been the victim, overrides 484 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 1: Dad's victim effort by claiming the super victim or martyrer role. 485 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: She says, I'm perfectly capable of getting dinner. Besides, it's 486 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: too late for pizza. I already defrosted the meat for dinner, 487 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:42,199 Speaker 1: and we can't afford to let it go to waste. 488 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 2: Act six. 489 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: Mom switches into the persecutor role and Dad to the 490 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 1: victim when she says to him, all you can think 491 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: of is something that is going to cost us more money. 492 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: You don't have her pitchin to help get dinner ready, 493 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: You just complain about it not being ready. Act seven. 494 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: At this point, Dad can shift either two victim or 495 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: super persecutor. He decides to rage and explodes into persecutors, 496 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: so he can vent even more of his feelings from 497 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: his frustrating day. I'm tired of always being the bad guy. 498 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: I'm going to go watch TV. I don't even want 499 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 1: any dinner. He then withdraws to the family room as 500 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: the angry victim. So in that example, you can see 501 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: how these roles just kind of feed off of each other, 502 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: and everybody's kind of fighting to get their needs met, 503 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: but they don't really want to be responsible for getting 504 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,199 Speaker 1: those needs met. And sometimes the need can just be 505 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 1: like expressing your emotions. So Dad needed to event about 506 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: his frustrating day. He didn't just do that, he took 507 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 1: it out in a very indirect way. So I wonder 508 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: if you kind of look at that and look at 509 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: how you're interacting in your life, you could probably pick 510 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 1: up how this happens. You're also going to be picking 511 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 1: up now that you know about this on how this 512 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: is happening in TV shows or within your friends or 513 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: any of that. You're gonna see it literally everywhere. And 514 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 1: like I said, the main problem with this game is 515 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: that the dynamic won't actually work for you in the 516 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 1: long run. It's a very short term, not great way 517 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: to get a need met in the moment, but it 518 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 1: creates more conflict, really, and while you're going to be 519 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 1: able to pick this up more often in your own life, 520 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: recognizing it isn't going to actually change it. It is 521 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,719 Speaker 1: a strong first step. So the first step of getting 522 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 1: out of this dynamic is definitely recognizing and knowing that 523 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,360 Speaker 1: I'm on it, and at the same time recognizing that 524 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 1: you can only control yourself. You can't fix or change 525 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: someone else. And when we try to do that, we 526 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,640 Speaker 1: end up a lot of times just making a bad 527 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: situation worse. For example, imagine trying to get a persecutor 528 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: to back off. They usually just become defensive and they'll 529 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: switch them into a different role and then to you 530 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 1: into a different role. And if you focus less on 531 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: trying to get the persecutor to back off and focus 532 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 1: more on how you're actually impacting that dynamic, you're going 533 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 1: to feel a lot better. And while we've already established 534 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 1: that when we get onto this triangle we usually end 535 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: up playing more than one role, there's also this thing 536 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: that happens where you can see yourself as one role 537 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: and somebody else can see you as a. 538 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 2: Completely other role. 539 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 1: A persecutor might think that they are rescuing, but someone 540 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: might see them as persecuting them and feel victimized by them. 541 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: You can see this all of the time in politics 542 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: and in religion, Like there might be somebody who thinks 543 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: that they're going to implement this awesome policy and help 544 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 1: all these people, but a lot of people might feel 545 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 1: oppressed by them, so they see this person that is 546 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: trying to be a rescuer actually as a persecutor. And 547 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: I actually have a really good example of this from 548 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: my own life. Now, for the sake of this, I've 549 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: kind of embellished like a little bit of the scenario, 550 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 1: but the gist of it is true. And what happened 551 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: was years ago, after I graduated grad school, I had 552 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: all this student loan debt and I didn't know what 553 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: the heck to do with it. It's very confusing to me. 554 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: I don't understand money. So I reach out to my dad, 555 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: who in my head, knows how to do that stuff. 556 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,440 Speaker 1: He'll know how to help me. He'll be somebody that 557 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: can tell me or show me the way to help 558 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: figure out how to best pay my student loans off. 559 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: There is backstory to this, in the sense that I 560 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 1: could have gone to grad school for free, and I 561 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: chose not to do that, and my dad made it 562 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: obvious that he thought that was not the best decision 563 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 1: for me, and I understand in my old age now 564 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: why he felt that way. In my angst of a 565 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,239 Speaker 1: young twenty something, I was like, I will do what 566 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 1: I want. But that was the backstory. So there was 567 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,120 Speaker 1: this part of him who was like, uh, you really 568 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: shouldn't have this in the first place. But I wanted 569 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: my dad to rescue me, and I wanted him to 570 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: help me, and I wanted to feel cared for by 571 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: my dad and helped and connected by my dad. 572 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 2: So I reached out. 573 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: He set me up with this person to talk me 574 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: through finances and how to pay these back. I'm going 575 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: to skip a lot because I just don't think it's 576 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: important for me to relive this. But the meeting that 577 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: was set up. I ended that meeting hysterical, complete tears. 578 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 1: There are a lot of things said in that meeting 579 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: that I didn't appreciate. I felt very hurt. And what 580 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: had happened is I chose to ask somebody to help 581 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: me do something when I already knew that our views 582 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 1: did not align, and my dad encouraged me to meet 583 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: with somebody whose views aligned with his views, and so 584 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: my views did not align with this person. So I 585 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: got on this trigle as a victim, and I wanted 586 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: my dad to rescue me. And I think that my 587 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: dad really did think he was helping me and this 588 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: would be the best way to do it. He really 589 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: thought he was playing this rescuer role. I wanted my 590 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: dad to be a white knight. He probably wanted to 591 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: be that white night for me, because I know he 592 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: loves me and cares about me, and I saw him 593 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: as a persecutor. So what did I do after that meeting? 594 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: I called my mom, and I just got one more 595 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: person on the struggle with me playing this victim role. 596 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: Then I went to my mom to be the rescuer mom, 597 00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: and I don't know what I said with something like, Mom, 598 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: I can't believe what dad. And I was like hysterical 599 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: and all this stuff. And I put my mom in 600 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: this really awkward position where she can either rescue me 601 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: and in her rescuing she's gonna have to persecute my dad, 602 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: or she can persecute me and then rescue my dad. 603 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: And it really wasn't fair. So in the end, my 604 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: mom ends up being a victim because she can't say 605 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: the right thing, and then I get mad at her, 606 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: and then I'm like the super victim, and it's a 607 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: whole mess, a whole mess. So when the reality was, 608 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: I should have just been honest about what I was 609 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: asking for, and I probably should not have asked my 610 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: dad to help me with something that I knew we 611 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: did not agree on. Now here's the thing. There's a 612 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: way to get off of this trap and get out 613 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: of this game. And I used some of these things 614 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: that I'm about to tell you to get out of 615 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: that dynamic with my dad, and that kind of situation 616 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: has never happened again because of this. So here's how 617 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: you get out. We already established that noticing it is key, 618 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: and noticing your role and how you keep it going. 619 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: Then there's three other things that I suggest, So one 620 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: is noticing your role all that. So I noticed that, 621 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: like WHOA, I did this thing. I should have never 622 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: asked for this. I am playing a game here. I 623 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: am trying to be a victim. I am trying to 624 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: have people help me because life is too hard and 625 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: I don't want to do it myself or whatever it 626 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: was for me at that point. So the second thing 627 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: that we need to do and that so recognize we're 628 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: on it, create some boundaries where do we need to 629 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: stop letting people in hoping things will be different this time? 630 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 2: Right? 631 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: That whole idea of like where do we need to 632 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: stop going to the hardware looking for bread? So my 633 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: dad can do a lot of things for me, A 634 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: lot of things, a lot of really awesome things. He 635 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 1: is an awesome dad. That is not something that I 636 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: need to ask him to help me with finances. I'm 637 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: not going to get the love and care and validation 638 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: that I need from my dad by having a conversation 639 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: about how I should spend and invest my money not 640 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: going to happen. So I need to stop going to 641 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: the hardware store looking for bread, and I need to 642 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: go to the hardware store to get hardware, and I 643 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: need to go to the bread store to get bread, 644 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: or I guess maybe the grocery store, but I guess 645 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: there could be a bread store. There is a bread store. 646 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: We're into college anyway, you know what I mean. So 647 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: the boundaries number three is this one's really tough. Boundaries 648 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: are tough, But this one is also really tough. We 649 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: have to start lowering our expectations. So where do we 650 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 1: need to accept people for who they are and not 651 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: what we want them to be? Because when we can 652 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: see people for really truly who they actually are, we 653 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: get to appreciate what they do offer us. We get 654 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: to appreciate all the things we love about them instead 655 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: of really getting pissed off over and over and over 656 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: and hurt over and over and over about the things 657 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: that they are not. So where can we lean in 658 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: to who they are and stop trying to make them 659 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: into somebody that they aren't. And going back to that 660 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: same idea with my dad, there are so many things 661 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: about him that I love. There are so many things 662 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: about him that I don't know, like how to survive without, 663 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: Like he is a again wonderful dad, But I couldn't 664 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: see that fully in that moment because all I was 665 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: focused on is this one thing that I wanted him 666 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: to be able to do that he couldn't do, which, 667 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: in the long run, everybody has shortcomings. Everybody is not 668 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 1: going to be able to do it all and meet 669 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: it all. So where do we need to lower expectations? 670 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: And then for self care because all of this is 671 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: very hard. We need some self care. Like it's hard 672 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: to lower expectations, it's hard to accept people, it's hard 673 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: to accept that we aren't going to get everything that 674 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: we want out of life the way we want it. 675 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 2: It's hard, It's true, but it's hard. 676 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: And I used a kind of low stakes example here, right, 677 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: So this example with my dad. I still have a 678 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: really awesome relationship with my dad, and this was a 679 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: bump in the road, but it did not like ruin 680 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: our relationship, and I didn't have to like let go. 681 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 2: Of a full relationship with him. 682 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: So when I am talking about this, I know that 683 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: in some of your lives, in some areas of my life, 684 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: this was a lot bigger than that. And so the 685 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: expectations that I had to lower felt a lot harder, 686 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: and the boundaries I had to create were a lot 687 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: more difficult and sad and scary. 688 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 2: So this is hard stuff. It is really hard stuff. 689 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 2: And also, like I said. 690 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: To really get out of that victim role, we have 691 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: to move out of that idea that we can't ask 692 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: for our needs directly. And that's really tough. That is 693 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 1: really really tough, that we can't be direct we're going 694 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,399 Speaker 1: against everything we knew, so because that's so difficult. We 695 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,800 Speaker 1: need to care for ourselves well, we need to validate ourselves. 696 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 1: We need to give ourselves space and time and some love. 697 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: So self care really important. We can't skip that one. 698 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 1: So that is going to wrap up this episode, and 699 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 1: I'm sure they'll there'll be some questions about this, so 700 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: feel free to send them. You can send them to 701 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 1: Katherine at You Need Therapy podcast dot com. Again, the 702 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 1: book that I really want to recommend. It's also hard 703 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: to read fast, but the book is how to Break 704 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: Free of the Drama Triangle and victim Consciousness. And then 705 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,319 Speaker 1: there's another book by Stephen Cartman called A Game Free 706 00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: Life that you might be interested in. 707 00:34:59,120 --> 00:34:59,720 Speaker 2: Both of those. 708 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: Books will probably be very helpful if you want to 709 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: learn more about this. I do not suggest doing a 710 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 1: Google search on this, because I actually Google searched it 711 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: and a lot of the stuff that I found, some 712 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: of it was good and helpful and true. Some of 713 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 1: it I was like, this seems weird or off or 714 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: I don't know what this means, and so I recommend 715 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,839 Speaker 1: like going to the experts about this. And so those 716 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,879 Speaker 1: two books I really love and highly recommend them. I 717 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 1: hope that this was helpful. And again, if you felt chaotic, 718 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: it's because this stuff is chaotic, so you're probably getting 719 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: it exactly how it is. So again, I hope this 720 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 1: was helpful. If you have questions, send them. If you 721 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 1: want to follow me, you can do that on Instagram 722 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,280 Speaker 1: at cat dot Defada. If you want to follow the podcast, 723 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: you can do that at You Need Therapy podcast. And 724 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: if you want to give a review to the podcast, 725 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: if you just haven't yet and it's been something that 726 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: has been helpful to you, I want to ask this favor, 727 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: and that is to scroll to the bottom of Apple 728 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: Podcasts and rate and review this pretty pretty. 729 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:00,320 Speaker 2: Pretty fa Please. 730 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: I hope you guys have the day, the week, the 731 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: hour that you need to have and I will talk 732 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 1: to you guys on Wednesday for couch Talks. 733 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:09,360 Speaker 2: Bye guys,